WEBVTT - The Greenprint 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.720 Does something wicked this way, comrades something wicked this way 0:00:06.840 --> 0:00:16.360 is about to come all over your face. No, if 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.240 you had a familiar, you know, a which is familiar, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.040 what would it be you? Cat girl? No? No, no, no, 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.800 I'm not a cat. Toad girl, not a dog girl, 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:27.800 not a toad girl. Some kind of bird. I think 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:30.040 it would be some kind of bird. An owl? No, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.240 not an owl? No? Um, what would you while I 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:34.000 think about this, what would yours? Because I'm sure you 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.040 have an immediate answer. Okay, well I'm allergic to cats, 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.639 so that's not gonna work. No. Dogs are a lot 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.600 of work. Dogs are a lot of work. I think, um, 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.159 a wild animal who was kind of independent and just 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.239 was like there when they needed them, So like a 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.560 wolf who did did he did my bidding? But also, 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:51.880 I mean a bird is nice because they can sort 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.800 of like carry messages for you. They can, but maybe 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.200 a snake. Wolves are really good as defenders, though I 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.520 like not like a wolf. Also because of the sort 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:05.360 of vampiric implications, you know, like Dracula can turn into 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:07.280 a world. I would pick a big cat. I would 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:12.280 do like a bobcat, a jaguar, a wildcat of some kind. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:14.240 I'm going to have a wolf who can turn into 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:16.000 a dog when I need them to, like when we 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.959 go to Arawan, becomes a dog and they're like a 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:23.640 service dog. That's an anxiety dog. An anxiety dog. Okay, 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.160 so we have our familiars. Today we are talking about witchcraft. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:34.479 We're talking about witchcraft, witches, um, the occult covens, magic um, mysticism, mysticism, 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:37.200 hocus poky, spookies, something like it this way, colm uh, 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.600 and we're going to dive deep into our own experience 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:45.720 as witches. The formative media about witches that have made 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:50.320 us the witches we are today, and um prevalence of 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.440 witch culture. What does it mean in Yeah, so hop 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:55.840 on your roomstick, because this is like a virgin the 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:59.600 show we give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes armors. Damn you. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:10.000 I'm Fran Toronto. So that's really that's too good. That 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.840 was just a normal laugh. That was actually fully my 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:19.239 normal law Rose. The visions need to know that when 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.480 you and I go to an anci theater, especially you 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.000 know if it's at like a mall like the Grove 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.680 or like a MC CityWalk or whatever, the price of 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.560 dressing cool is that teens feel comfortable walking up to 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.359 us and asking us if we'll be in there TikTok's. Yeah, 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:36.839 it finally has happened. Um, we have we have been 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.079 stopped by those people who make TikTok's where they have 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:43.480 a microphone and ask people questions. We were stopped and 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.280 in Unison, this little girlie said, Hi, can we ask 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.640 you a question for a TikTok? We just in Unison 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.000 went no and kept and kept it push it. Oh. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.000 We didn't even stop, like we were just like no, no no, no, no, no, 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.239 no no. We had our Saphora bags and we were 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.640 up up in a way and uh. We have to say, 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:06.760 we had a handful of things to talk about this week, 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:10.160 but I think that just for today we're maybe only 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.760 going to talk about one movie we saw this weekend. Yes, 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:21.920 because as queer podcasters, it is our sacred duty, yeah, 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:26.160 to have an official take on Bros. Starring Billy Eichner, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:28.239 which is kind of if you've heard of it. We're 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.520 being jokey because it actually might not have heard of 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:32.280 it because a lot of people haven't seen it. Someone 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:34.560 two people texting me this weekend and they were like, 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.320 what is this Bros. Controversy. Um so, if you're not aware, 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:43.040 Billy Eichner's first mainstream rom com starring a gay man 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:45.960 who felches or whatever the funk it is, came out 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:52.040 this weekend. It's about a queer podcaster, triggering. It's about 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.280 a gay podcaster who is also a history buff and 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.280 is on the board of directors for New York City's 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.280 first l g B, t Q plus museum, who meets 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:06.160 a man who is very much the type of gay 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.080 that he really has no time for, which is like 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:14.280 Chelsea Hell's kitchen, Jim bro And yet somehow they managed 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:16.800 to fall in love. Yes, Yes, And that really is 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.280 kind of the whole movie, Like it's that simple. It's 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.440 a rom com. You and I had similar takes about 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.039 the movie, but a different overall experience, like when you 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.359 walked out, Like, how did you feel about it? Yeah? 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.840 I mean I just care about it less than I 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:34.320 think you do. Um okay, And interesting framing of that. Well, No, 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:37.720 I I guess it's it's more that I would agree 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.520 with that I'm able to just kind of simplify the 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.720 way that I feel about it, which is I think 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.360 it's very flawed in terms of um, the way it's 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:52.279 trying to overrepresent queer people as a community. That being said, 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.839 I do think it's a pretty good romantic comedy and 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.080 I enjoyed watching it. And if I was, you know, 0:04:58.120 --> 0:04:59.839 at my mom's house in Florida and it came on 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:02.400 a HBO, I would totally watch it again, which I'm 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.880 not gonna lie. I'm shook by, but I completely respect. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.480 And I walked out of it feeling like I didn't 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.240 really like it that much. I didn't hate hate it 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.279 by any means. You were you were fired up. On 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.080 the ride home. I was okay, okay, I'll be real. 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.320 I was mad, you were mad. I was mad. We 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:23.960 were driving on and you were angry, but I thought 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.560 we were going to hit someone. But I'm taking accountability 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.159 for the fact that I'm not angry about what the 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:34.160 movie offers. The movie is a perfectly fine movie that 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:37.600 belongs in an echelon of bro comedies like forty year 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.159 Old Version and Knocked Up or whatever these other movies. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.680 And I think I want to clarify, I think we 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:47.120 talked about this a little bit this weekend. When you 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:51.560 say bro comedy, like we're talking about this, Judd Apatow 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:59.400 asked mainstream comedy from the male perspective, Anchorman, super Bad, 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.520 like Step Brothers. We have had some of these types 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.360 of films from the perspective of women and so, and 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:07.400 that's why I'm trying to like tone back my anger, 0:06:07.400 --> 0:06:10.400 because my angers around like the sentiments surrounding the film, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.560 how the film has been presented to us from a 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.120 press perspective, but like just on the film level in 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:20.280 and of itself, like the movie's fine and and I 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.800 flaud but fine, and like I'm just not the target 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.640 demographic for a bro comedy. Like all of those movies 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.200 I listed are like my least favorite movies ever. And 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.479 I'm just I'm not. I'm not They're not for me, 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.159 and that's not a bad thing. I'm not saying that 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.760 they shouldn't exist. You know, Um, I do think you 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.919 would like Knocked Up. I Knocked Up is fun. Yeah, Okay, 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:41.720 I've never seen it. I've never seen it. I don't know. 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.640 I should also say, like, I love Billy's comedic stylings. 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.880 The jokes in this movie are really really good. Not all, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:49.760 but a lot of them are really good jokes. No, 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:53.200 there's um, I'm still giggling about one that references the 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:56.280 Greatest Showman and if you know, you know, Yeah, I 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.320 loved Billy Eichner's Difficult People. I want it back. I 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.960 felt like it was great, which is shocking to me 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.600 because a lot of these jokes are like quintessential Billy 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.640 in the Bros. Movie. Um, but I don't like that show. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.000 I don't like the woman who plays his friend. I 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:16.240 find her unwatchable. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. And even 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.400 though I love Difficult People, the things that make it 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.560 difficult to watch is that these characters are really really miserable. 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.560 And I felt that way kind of watching Bros. As well, Like, 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.680 it was hard for me to really appreciate sometimes the 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.600 movie as a whole, because every single character is so 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:40.440 miserable and like really like hates other members of the 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:44.080 community and hates everyone around them. And I was like 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.400 looking for reprieve from that. And there was a lot 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.400 of salient critique about like gay men in general, Like 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.960 this movie talks a lot and says a lot of 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.440 very accurate things about what it means to not be 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:00.200 able to communicate your emotions properly to a partner. How 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:05.400 hook up culture or polyamory really convolutes um romantic relationships 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:09.120 and comes out of that really good humor. And it 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.280 also exploits how even though you know, polyamory or open 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:14.560 relationships or hook up culture or whatever are things that 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:17.320 are liberatory and freeing and define us as queer people, 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.680 they also complicate our relationships when we don't have the 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.800 fluency to navigate them, which most men don't do not 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:26.640 you know what I mean. But like, part of the 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.560 reason this movie doesn't hit as hard is because it's 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:31.920 coming out like five to ten years too late, you 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.040 know what I mean. I'm sure that a movie like 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:38.079 this takes so much longer to make than any other 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.160 movie because it's a gay movie. Like, I get that, 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:43.320 and that's not the movie's fault, but it would have 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.280 been a lot easier to watch ten years ago. I 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.680 would have a lot less to say about it. Yeah, 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.800 but I think ten years ago they wouldn't even have 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:59.040 attempted to try to make it about queerness outside of 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.280 the gay mail experience, which maybe would have been ultimately better, 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:04.080 because I think a lot of what this movie gets 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:08.320 wrong is in trying to make it a statement about 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.839 queer community and queer history and A big plot line 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.559 in this film is that Billy is a director of 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.200 this lgbt Q plus history museum that opens and we're 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.320 told again and again how historic and important it is, 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:25.640 and it's that's clearly coded also his language about the 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.600 movie we're watching, which in no way is historic, Like 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:31.800 I think it's I think it's a good movie, but 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.400 I don't think it's historic or groundbreaking or anything. And 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.680 I think if they had just focused on the parts 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.559 of it that worked, which we're you know, being a 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:42.680 rom com, that would have been so much better than 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:46.480 trying to shoe horn in all of this stuff about 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:49.760 representation and community and queer history. And I mean, ultimately, 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:51.200 I think it would have just been better if Billy's 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.000 character had been a dentist. Yeah yeah, I mean like 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.839 a firefighter or like I have like an Etsy store 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.719 or something. No fire fighter at theaster would have been great. 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.120 I would have bought that. That's that is actually such 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.600 a good point, Like this character is kind of like 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:11.760 an Eric Servinis, kind of like passionate, right, like loves 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:13.880 like the legacy of like queer history and thinks it's 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.280 so important. Like I didn't buy that from Billy at all. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.480 Because of the way the character acted for the rest 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.920 of the movie when he wasn't a gay podcaster, And 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.800 I was like, it's just it just was disingenuous and 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.720 to your point, like the moments where the movie tries 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.280 to make jokes or make the movie about because it 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.280 does about queer and trans people at writ large, like 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:40.600 the LGBTQ community writ large, are the least successful parts 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.160 of the movie. Like I mean, just to like exemple fight, 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.840 like this movie talks about Marsha P. Johnson throwing the 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:54.280 fucking first brick at stone Wall like at least three times. Seriously, 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.679 it was just it was very like, um, I know 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.480 that the people that go and see this movie, they 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:02.080 might not have the queer one oh one on the history. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.160 So I would have forgiven it if it didn't come 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.000 back so many times, and also if it just did 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.000 income fromability. It's just like I didn't feel like the 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:15.400 movie was at any point really trying to represent anything 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.640 other than gay men. And I would have very much 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.839 so appreciated a movie that was just about gay men. Sure. 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:26.079 I would have also, especially in terms of how it 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.840 was marketed and how people are talking about it, because 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:32.600 what I really don't appreciate is this conversation that's that's 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.840 happening not just through Billy and the press tour of 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.920 this movie, but even people that I see on TikTok 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.400 saying it's our responsibility as queer people to go see 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.640 this film so that it sends a message to Hollywood 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.280 that they should make more gay movies and that if 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.160 this film flops, that's it. That's it for queer media. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.520 There's never gonna be another queer film made again. And 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:56.679 I just don't buy into that argument. I think, like, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.319 make a better movie. Yeah, And as as like that 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:04.680 sentiment is, I understand reparative to like years and years 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:10.040 of the ways gay keepers like repress the movement of 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.520 like queer stories, but like it's an asinine take. Like 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.960 if you think that we are all contractually obligated to 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.319 consume all of like the gay culture that exists out there, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.520 it's like you have like a lot of Adam Lambert 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:24.880 like albums to listen to, you know what I mean? 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.360 Like you like all y'all like are trying to pretend 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:31.600 like you have this like broad fluency and have seen 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.239 everything gay that has ever come out, Like I sincerely 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.480 doubt that Billy Eichner has seen I don't know, the 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.920 handmade in or like other amazing like queer and trans 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:41.840 films that looks like such a random like kind of 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.560 romance that I'm thinking of like a guest maybe more 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.720 of an erotic thriller. I doubt he's even seen Portrait 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.360 of a Lady on Fire. But anyways, my point really 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.760 is that, like it is a really righteous and unhelpful 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:56.480 thing to do to say that if you don't see 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:59.960 this movie, your homophoone. Righteousness is really the right word 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.040 for it, because that is you know, his he needs 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.960 to just get off Twitter because his thread the other 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.320 day about how this movie flopped because straight people didn't 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.840 show up for it and because people are homophobic, which like, 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.800 of course that's true, but he needs to step away. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.720 I know he's trying to sell this movie. But what 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.640 has served Billy so well in his career, which is 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.760 that he'll say anything to anyone, is really not working 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.199 right now. No, it's not. And like, okay, I actually 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.480 do think straight people should see this movie, Like I 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.240 agree with that. Um, it's just yeah, to your point, 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.040 like this whole like the movie failed because of X, 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.520 Y and Z it's like, just take accountability for your movie, man. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:42.120 And it's not like there's not a market for gay 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:46.960 love stories for straight people. Like a lot of six 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:52.520 hetero women consume content about gay men, like I read 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:55.760 fan fiction. I know they do. Um, there's a reason 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.199 why fucking Red, White and Royal Blue it's as popular 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.560 as it is, or the Song of Achilles or whatever. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:08.120 Like people are consuming gay love stories. They're just like 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.400 not really consuming this one. And I I really I 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.640 feel the pain of like what it means to make 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.160 anything for a queer audience. Right to like to sign 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.560 up and say I'm going to make something for historically 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.840 marginalized audience is setting yourself up, in part for failure, 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.520 because you're going to make a lot of people mad, 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.200 because the people that see themselves represented are going to 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.320 feel that you're not doing it accurately, and the people 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.560 that don't see themselves represented are going to feel erased. 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.240 And that is the paradox of representation and why it 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.360 will always fail and why we just need to as 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.920 a whole get away from representational thinking rit large, because 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:52.680 that is why the movie didn't succeed. And like we're 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.120 trying to like you, you and I like really try 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.680 to like separate this movie from its press rollout, right, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.520 but like it actually could not be separated because Billy 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:06.600 and the team were so insistent they didn't want us 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:10.320 to separate. And every part of this rollout and the 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.480 film itself is in conversation with each other. And I 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:15.120 think it should be able to stand on its own 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.880 and and for me, like that's the thing is Ultimately 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.440 for me, I did still enjoy it. I can, I 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.560 can be critical of it and think all these things, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:25.680 and I still think it's like a pretty good movie. 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.920 I still enjoyed it exactly the same way. I can 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.400 say that like they were hysterical jokes and that a 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.520 lot of the casting was amazing. Guy Brandam phenomenal. I 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.120 also think, like outside of the movie, Guy Brandam is 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.240 like a perfect and incisive voice around like representation and 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.880 all these different things. Bowen was so good and it 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.360 was some of the best parts of the movie. Debra Messing, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:53.320 Oh my god, amazing Christian Chaw the lolliest cameo is 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.160 so funny. Um. But to like get back to the movie, 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.000 there are several scenes in like boardrooms where this the 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.080 board of lg bd Q museum is like present, right, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.440 and of course it's like a lesbian, a white trans girl, 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.400 a black trans girl, a non binary person, and like 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.680 a gay man. It's like this perfect panel of like 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:15.160 you know, LGBTQ board members or whatever. And the lesbian 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.720 in these scenes is just like this loud, cantankerous woman 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.280 and there are a lot of jokes about her like 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:23.240 physical strength, and like, look, you and I we love 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.520 jokes at the expense of like any member of the 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.560 queer community, right, Like it's okay, it's okay, Like we're 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:32.160 it's okay to make jokes about this. We've seen this 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.480 joke from Billy Eigner before, you know what I mean, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.760 or if not from Billy, Like we've seen this joke. 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.400 Like there was no invention in the jokes that it 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:42.880 was making about other marginalized people. And I feel like 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.800 when you do that, you're kind of punching down. And 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.400 there's also like there's this other moment that I think 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.239 encapsulates like a lot of the kind of thematic problem 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:55.560 of the movie and this thing we keep talking about 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.960 about who it's centering the gay man in the story, 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.920 and then who it's trying to to include and there's 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.040 this moment where one of the trans people is like, 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:05.800 I'm trying to hold space for you, like makes it. 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:08.200 There's this joke about like holding space that's like kind 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.960 of funny, but ultimately they don't really get where Billy 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.679 is coming from about something. And he says this remark 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.760 coming hot off the disappointment of this kind of mini 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:21.080 breakup he's going through with his boyfriend. He's saying, Oh, 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.240 so I'm too queer for my boyfriend and I'm not 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.840 queer enough for you, And like that was just so 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.000 like pick to me, Like I feel like it's told 0:17:30.000 --> 0:17:32.919 on Billy in a way that I don't think he intended, 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.040 because it paints a picture of the plights of gay men, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:39.800 but then for some reason like puts it in opposition 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.720 to like black trans people or whatever. I was just like, like, 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.240 what are you trying to say, Like the movie is 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.320 about the plights of gay men, Let it just be 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.360 that like when you try and victimize yourself and say, oh, 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.399 this other part of the community doesn't get me or whatever. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.800 I was just like, no, girl, you're just like privileged 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.880 and you don't have any other trans friends or let's 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:01.800 me and friends, you know, what I mean, Like that's 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.960 kind of what it was giving at times, and to 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:08.359 your point, like just wish that it had stayed on 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.800 the lens of gay men, because it was it made 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:15.399 really great critiques about game male relationships and the toxicity 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:17.600 that comes with it. Yeah, you know, you and I 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:21.320 are people who also are storytellers, Like I never tried 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.320 to write something that's going to speak to the entirety 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.439 of the queer experience. I try to, you know, create 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:31.200 things that are about my experience because that's what I understand. Um, 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.680 And I just think this would have been a much 0:18:33.720 --> 0:18:37.919 more successful movie if Billy wrote just kind of a 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:43.560 simpler gay rom com. Yeah. I wonder honestly if the 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.520 movie was at one point only about men and at 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.639 some point somebody was like, well, we got to represent 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.359 all these other people, and that's why so much of 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.119 this was like wedged in like the homages of like 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:57.959 James Baldwin and Marsha P. Johnson or whatever. Like I 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.479 was like, what's going on, Like what don't we want? Well? 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.119 I also wonder if that's like almost a way to 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:10.560 kind of incentivize you know, queer people to see this film, 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.440 or if it was something that Billy felt he owed 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.639 to queer people too. If he was making this big 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:23.240 Hollywood movie, he had to you know, torn this in 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:26.719 in a way that felt very you know, disingenuous and 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:31.040 just like kind of chick like checking off representation, you know, 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:37.600 points of rather than telling those stories, because like, if 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.199 you wanted to tell a diversity of queer stories in 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.280 this film, then those people should have written it. Yeah, 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:47.440 not to mention when there was this scene in like 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:50.159 the background of like one of the Queer History Museum 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:53.119 exhibits where there's all these like portraits of like queer 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.160 icons or whatever, and then there's a picture of Lori Lightfoot. 0:19:56.160 --> 0:20:00.040 Did you see that picture of It? Was so like 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.000 I felt insane watching it um And I also honestly 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.320 felt crazy because the romantic lead is like so toxic 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.920 and so like emotionally stunted. I was like the whole 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:12.840 engine of the movie was like lost on me. Like 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.520 I was like, why would you keep pursue? Like what 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.159 are the redeeming qualities of either of these characters? But 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.280 that was the part to me that was the most realistic, 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:25.600 because it is realistic. Yeah, I mean they're not gonna last, Like, 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:29.679 let's say that to break up six months after this 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.720 movie ends. Well, we did our duty. We saw bros. 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:51.640 We talked about it, clocking out, flocking out. Have you 0:20:51.760 --> 0:21:00.320 ever cast a spell? I have, yes, on multiple occasions. Um. 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:03.959 What kind of spells? Never a love spell, because, as 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.800 we've talked about on the pod before, those are non consensual. Um. 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:13.160 But I have cast instead? You've cursed people to die? Yes, yes, 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:20.960 spells of vengeance, abundance, fortitude. What about you? I have 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:26.760 cast many, many spells. Um. Literally, no one who listens 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.520 to this podcast will be a surprised to learn that. 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:37.280 As an adolescent, I fancied myself a bit of a witch. 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.639 I still consider myself a witch. But when I was 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:46.160 a teenager, this was in the time when WICCA and 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.520 sort of New Age spirituality was having a real moment. 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.879 As you could see in any Borders bookstore if you 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.399 went to the New Age section, there would be books 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.560 like to Write a Silver brun Stick by Silver Raven 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.200 Wolf Um that would describe how you, you know, set 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.800 up an altar and called to the corners and cast 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.480 a circle. And honey, I was doing all of the 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:14.199 above in my childhood bedroom. I was casting spells. I 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:17.399 was trying to move things with my mind. I was 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.520 making lotions and potions and hungeans and oils, and you 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:24.480 in that era of your life really were like a 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:29.280 trenifestation of the Satanic panic of the late eighties and 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.679 early night and nothing about it was Satanic. It was 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.320 all it was all, it was all Goddess Vibe. I 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:40.320 was saying to the Goddess Hondy, everything about witchcraft is 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:46.800 entwined with the devil. But also, satanic panic is more eighties. Yeah, 0:22:46.800 --> 0:22:49.919 it is more eighties. But and I'm not that old, okay, 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.480 but we were talking. We're talking about early two thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.399 but I think what I'm trying to say is that, um, 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.320 in the nineties, there's still so much, as you do, 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.840 of satanic panic bleeding into the culture wars that made 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:07.760 everyone scared of the girl that would check out the 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.320 taro deck at Borders bookstore. I guess. But I feel 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:16.320 almost like the acceptance of that kind of spirituality that 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:20.560 happened in the mid to late nineties was making it 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.680 was maybe like making up for it, But no, I 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:26.080 think it predates J. K. Rolling a little bit, because yeah, 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.439 we had well to get into it. I think the 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:35.040 Craft dates JK. Rolling for sure. Late nineties, we've like 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:40.400 we've had, we've had let the Satanic panic behind, and 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:46.679 now a gentler, more empowered idea of people who flirt 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.040 with the invisible. It now enters pop culture in a 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:52.359 way where those people are the heroes of the stories 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.439 rather than exactly. And I love that, you know, since 0:23:56.480 --> 0:23:58.960 this moment that we've pointed toward in the kind of 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:03.800 like nineties, that um, instead of the although they were 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:06.520 the villains in the Craft except for one of them, sure, sure, sure, 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.080 but I love that. Um. And and that's the same 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:11.040 case with like hocus focus and stuff like that. But 0:24:11.200 --> 0:24:14.440 I love that, Um, the pendulum never swung back right 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:18.360 like there was. There hasn't been necessarily another like Witchcraft 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:22.720 panic to the scale of like the Satanic panic, because 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.880 which is in kind of the cultural forces that we're 0:24:26.920 --> 0:24:30.760 talking about today, movies, TV shows, books, whatever, have only 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:34.919 accrued in like cultural value and like meaning. Like I 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:38.960 think that which is are as a feminist idea, something 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:43.040 that is even more popular now than it was in 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:46.080 the Charm. In the Charm to Harry totally well, Satanic 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:49.920 panic was very culty and anyone who has watched the 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:53.520 most recent season of Stranger Things knows that that is 0:24:54.600 --> 0:25:00.240 how it begun in the eighties was people um being 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:02.840 scared of people who played things like dungeons and dragons 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:06.800 and thinking that they were satanic cults and killed people, 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.040 which is also a plot line in Riverdale, it must 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:10.880 be said. But their version of the game is called 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:13.760 like Gorgon's and Gargoyles or something like that. And so 0:25:13.840 --> 0:25:19.679 then the upswing in which media and culture in the 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:23.840 nineties I do think was very much about the self. 0:25:23.920 --> 0:25:27.280 It was very internalized, it was very feminist, it was 0:25:27.359 --> 0:25:30.200 and it was also very like tied up in ideas 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:34.520 of sisterhood with things like charmed on the Craft, practical 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:39.640 magic um and then skewing over into you know, broader 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:43.840 fantasy with Harry Potter. Can you like you know Harry 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:48.640 Potter aside, like, what were the first witchcraft cultural objects 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:51.320 that you latched onto? Oh? Well, I mean the inciting 0:25:51.359 --> 0:25:54.720 incident is, of course the Wicked Witch of the West 0:25:54.760 --> 0:25:57.640 and the Wizard of Oz. She was the moment, She's 0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:01.440 the blueprint, she's the green print, she's alpha but herself. 0:26:02.160 --> 0:26:04.560 That was the first time I saw which on screen 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:07.760 and We've talked about Wizard of Oz before and how 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:10.000 much I loved it. And even though I loved Dorothy 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:13.600 and wanted to be Dorothy, the Wicked Witch of the 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:16.680 West was the character who I was the most obsessed with, 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:22.000 and she sparked what has been a lifelong obsession with 0:26:22.040 --> 0:26:25.719 witches for me. She was the first, and then I 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.280 think after that, I just any time there was a 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:31.800 witch in a movie like Um madmana Mim in The 0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:34.880 Sword in the Stone hocus Pocus, you know, also came 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:38.280 out in the early to mid nineties, if there was 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:41.200 a character who was a witch, I was obsessed, even 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:43.720 when she was the villain. And so then once I 0:26:43.800 --> 0:26:46.800 was old enough to start reading on my own, I 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:50.680 always gravitated too books with witches, and them are books 0:26:50.680 --> 0:26:53.879 about witches, And as I got older, I was able 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:55.840 to find more and more of those books where the 0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:59.560 witches were the heroes rather than the villains, or at 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.480 least they were, you know, more more complicated than that. 0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:04.639 While we're in the villain's portion, though, can we like 0:27:04.720 --> 0:27:07.240 have a moment for mad Madam Mim from this from 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:09.960 The Sword in the Stone, I forgot about her. She 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:12.119 is iconic and Lady Gaga should play her in the 0:27:12.160 --> 0:27:16.680 live action version that is The Dake. She is grotesque 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:19.120 and I love that, but she also is sexy because 0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:21.879 she is a shape shifter. Wait oh wait, doesn't she 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:24.359 become like a sexy crocodile or something. She becomes a 0:27:24.400 --> 0:27:26.080 lot of different things, but she does become like a 0:27:26.160 --> 0:27:29.400 hot version of her similar to Ursula, She's very trans 0:27:29.600 --> 0:27:33.639 Ursula becomes a hot version of herself, Um the Witch, 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:36.200 and Um snow White in The Seven Dwarves becomes a 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:40.000 hot version of herself. She is also an iconic witch. Yeah. 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:45.240 The Maleficent, honestly, for me was my first I think 0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:47.720 the first witch that I latched onto. I probably saw 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:51.040 a Wizard of Us before, but I definitely remember seeing 0:27:51.080 --> 0:27:53.960 Maleficent and being like, that is my girl. But Maleficent 0:27:54.119 --> 0:27:56.520 is very much a sorceress, and I think the thing 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:58.320 that I loved about The Wicked Witch of the West 0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:02.560 is she is the proto typical, which she's got the broomstick, 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:07.960 the pointy hat, the crystal ball, she's mixing up potions 0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:12.280 and her cauldron. You know, she was a witch, the archetypical. 0:28:12.600 --> 0:28:16.240 That's what I was into, and I love that Since 0:28:16.320 --> 0:28:20.440 that moment, we've had so many different takes and iterations 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:25.080 on the archetype, not excluding mad Madam mim or the 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:27.119 other the others that came up in that in that 0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:30.120 Disney era, of which witches, because there are a lot 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.960 of witches and Disney movies, but they're almost always the villain, 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:38.760 right exactly. It's only now in sort of the post 0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:45.840 metare contextualization of Disney that we now have empowered women 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:48.560 who are the heroes of their stories, like Frozen, where 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:49.920 you know, else is not a witch, but she has 0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:55.560 powers and she is you know, complicated, but she's not evil. Right. 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.480 I think the one standout from the witches of your 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:03.560 maybe that I'm thinking of is Kiki's Delivery Service where 0:29:03.640 --> 0:29:07.040 she's the protagonist and not the villain. But that movie, 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:09.240 I mean, it's it's him Zaki, so obviously it's like 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.680 it has way more like depth than like any of 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:14.560 these like Disney movies or anything like that. Um have 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:17.840 you have you seen that movie? Ye oh my god, 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:22.440 I love love love that. Like her magic power is 0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:28.080 a kind of metaphor for um, the muse like and 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:30.920 for like creativity. Like I think maybe it was an 0:29:30.920 --> 0:29:33.600 interview or something that I watched with Hamiyazaki, but like 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:38.560 describing how like writer's block and like artists blocks that 0:29:38.640 --> 0:29:41.719 come up are not unlike the way that Kiki all 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:44.480 of a sudden couldn't access her powers and she didn't 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:46.120 know why, and she's trying to make sense of it, 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:49.120 and all she needed was solitude and to do something 0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:52.480 that wasn't magic, to like find her magic again. I'm like, 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.480 I think that, like that's like that as a lesson 0:29:55.520 --> 0:30:00.320 has like she was in her folklore era. She she 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:02.600 was there a folklore era and honestly also not to 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:04.320 like jump all the way to the end, but like 0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:09.600 um her her Wanda era too, will get there. We'll 0:30:09.600 --> 0:30:12.960 get there, so some other I think really formative, which 0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:17.320 is of my childhood, which is of Eastwick? Yes, have 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:21.040 you seen I would Love Love Love too? I've seen, Yes, 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:22.959 And I would love to watch a version of the 0:30:22.960 --> 0:30:26.560 film um without Jack Nicholson because I think I'm disgusting. 0:30:26.640 --> 0:30:30.560 He is disgusting, but it's still he's integral to the story. 0:30:31.080 --> 0:30:34.560 I still could watch it without him, I really could. 0:30:34.680 --> 0:30:37.280 It wouldn't make sense, but I would enjoy it. Okay, 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:43.520 we'll try to get you girls only cut Girls, we 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:46.120 will have at this point, we'll already have talked a 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:50.400 bit about hocus Pocus during our live watch of the 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:53.120 of hocus Pocus too upon record, we have not the 0:30:53.200 --> 0:30:55.280 pon record, we have not done it yet. So I 0:30:55.320 --> 0:30:58.480 mean we can say that when hocus Pocus came out, 0:30:58.960 --> 0:31:02.160 that had me in a guerrilla grip, you know, because 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.920 even though they were the villains, I was obsessed with them. 0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:10.520 And I did not see hocus Pocus until my twenties. 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:14.920 God a friend, Yeah, yeah, and I watched it and 0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:19.040 it was amazing. Like the musical number Sarah Jessica Parker, 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:21.400 Kathey and Jenie Bette Midler, like the tree out of 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:26.920 them is omnipotent. It's why I'm nervous. I'm nervous about 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:30.000 the sequel. Girl. There's no way it can be good. 0:31:30.440 --> 0:31:32.880 There's no way it can be good. But I actually 0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:36.080 don't think it's possible for the three of them to 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:38.720 have a bad performance. I think the movie can be bad, 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:41.680 but I don't think that the three of them will 0:31:41.680 --> 0:31:45.120 give us a bad moment. I don't think that a 0:31:45.120 --> 0:31:47.600 lot of money. Here's the thing. Yeah, sure, but Bette 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:50.160 Midler has never failed us. Kathy and Genie Midler has 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:52.720 never failed us. Well, Bette Midler did tweet some stupid things, 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:55.320 but aside from that, right, we were we actually were 0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:59.320 we We never talked about the Bett. Well, she's not 0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:05.120 a turf she tur turf light yeah, diet turf um, 0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:10.040 but she's she thinks j. K. Rowling's okay on the 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.719 performance level, though I don't think that has ever wronged us, 0:32:12.760 --> 0:32:15.600 nor has Kathy and Jimmie. Sarah Jessica Parker maybe has, 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:18.720 but I don't because sometimes she doesn't know what movie 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:20.320 she's in, but I think she'll know what I mean. 0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:22.560 This is Oh, she I think is the one who 0:32:22.560 --> 0:32:26.600 will slay the most because Sarah Jessica Parker is amazing 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.000 when it comes to physical slapstick comedy. And even in 0:32:30.040 --> 0:32:33.680 the trailer she was giving that, say that and also 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:36.960 like she's never credited for that. You know, as the 0:32:37.040 --> 0:32:41.480 nineties progressed and which is started to get sexier, I 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:44.560 was all about that. Okay, you still have not seen 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:48.440 the original the Craft. Yeah, but it's sexy. I thought 0:32:48.440 --> 0:32:51.400 it was teen. It is teens, but they're sexy teens 0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.280 of course, sexy teens played by full adult, fully thirty 0:32:56.360 --> 0:32:59.000 year old um. It starts for as a bulk who 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:03.440 it was in Return to Oz, which is also a 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:05.640 movie about which is and one of my favorite films 0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:07.600 and one of your favorite portrayals of which is as 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:12.760 one of my favorite Yes. Um. It is about a 0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:16.840 group of girls who are outcasts at school and find 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:20.480 that they are more powerful together than apart, and but 0:33:20.760 --> 0:33:24.240 once they get power, it corrupts them and they start 0:33:24.280 --> 0:33:27.840 doing some very bad things. The vibes are correct, the 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:31.560 looks are right, the soundtrack is amazing. It's a great 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:35.560 little teen horror films and very formative to you, as 0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:37.920 you always say, extremely format. Would you say that it 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:41.640 is one of the best films ever made? No, I won't. 0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:43.920 You wouldn't know. I thought that would be one of 0:33:43.960 --> 0:33:50.880 the ones. No practical magic, practical now, practical magic. That 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:55.440 is it is in my top ten films. Yeah, okay, 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:58.959 okay it one day. One day, the virgins are going 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:03.120 to keep tracking your You'll be eating your words, and 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.120 then you're no longer going to be able to say, 0:34:07.200 --> 0:34:10.440 you know what, Please start compiling a list of all 0:34:10.480 --> 0:34:12.080 the films that I say are in my top ten, 0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:17.880 which are pirates of the caribbeansgic return to return to 0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:23.880 the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Rear Rear Windows my 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:28.360 favorite movie of all time. But Practical Magic. That was 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:32.160 kind of the first thing that after I had moved 0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:37.520 here that I forced you to watch that you had 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:41.360 never seen, never seen because it was Halloween. It was 0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:43.600 like peak pandemic, so we can really do anything. We 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:46.800 did go to Channing's and how the Lovely Little Saw 0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:49.200 and ritual and then we came back to your old 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:52.839 apartment and who and watched Practical Magic. Was the first time. 0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:55.359 It was the perfect Halloween and you stayed away through 0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.560 the whole thing somehow, well, I mean, it's very engaging 0:34:58.600 --> 0:35:01.480 in that that the movie hinges on murdering a man. 0:35:01.760 --> 0:35:05.040 It's also an hour and a half murdering uh. He's 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:09.800 like murdering a domestic abuser abuser. And then also and 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:13.760 and it's also about restorative justice outside of the carceral system, 0:35:14.200 --> 0:35:18.160 because the cop comes in to try to catch them 0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:22.279 and then ends the movie with him being like, Oh, 0:35:22.320 --> 0:35:25.040 I don't really care that you killed him. He got 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:28.959 what he deserved. It's also about storative justice is really 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:30.800 at the end of the day, about the death penalty. 0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:33.080 And how we should be doing that instead. It's also 0:35:33.600 --> 0:35:38.360 a story about ancestral shealing, sheiling, ancestral pain shealing, feeling 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:45.480 like healing but with what with women? She like ancestral shealing. 0:35:46.960 --> 0:35:51.680 It also has an incredible soundtrack that slaps to this day. 0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:56.520 Stevie Nicks does multiple songs covers of old class What 0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:58.960 is the thing? Can you explain to me, like how 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:01.840 it all started with Stevine Knicks being a witch? Like 0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:05.280 how people just assumed or like made associations with Steven 0:36:05.320 --> 0:36:07.839 Knicks that she was in witchcraft of some kind. I 0:36:07.880 --> 0:36:12.959 think it's just kind of her general vibe. It wasn't 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:17.640 anything explicit, and I think especially once she started her 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:23.279 solo career, it just kind of became a thing. It's 0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:25.799 just one of those things I think, Okay, wait, this 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.239 is I'm realizing something right now. So, first of all, 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.239 Stevin Knicks has gone on the record to confirm that 0:36:30.280 --> 0:36:32.479 she is in fact not a witch and that this 0:36:32.880 --> 0:36:36.759 was a rumor that started circulating in her Fleetwood mac 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:41.840 era of Rhiannon that I think was particularly it's a 0:36:41.880 --> 0:36:44.480 song about a witch. Yeah, yeah, so people started to 0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:46.319 assume that she was a witch, and I'm also just 0:36:46.400 --> 0:36:49.319 realizing upon looking at So when I type this out 0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:51.239 in Google and saw the photo, I was like, oh, 0:36:51.320 --> 0:36:54.719 she looks like Olivia Newton John. And now I'm remembering, 0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:56.640 and I've said this on the pod before that my 0:36:56.680 --> 0:37:00.120 mom once told me that Olivia Newton John, alright, he 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:05.400 was a witch, and had I think my mom Olivia 0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:07.640 and John was Stevie Nicks. Yes, they look kind of 0:37:07.680 --> 0:37:11.040 the same, but Olivia r I p you were not 0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:15.279 a witch. Um. So I was very disappointed because I 0:37:15.360 --> 0:37:17.920 was obsessed with practical magic. My mom took me to 0:37:17.960 --> 0:37:20.960 see the movie and I lost my mind, Like it 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:26.360 reordered my brain and like changed me on a chemical level, 0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:29.040 because I think up until that point, my idea of 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:32.080 which is had been the wicked witch of the West. 0:37:32.160 --> 0:37:35.319 And now I saw, wait, you can be young and 0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:38.520 hot and have all that hair and be a witch 0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:41.240 and have sex and have sex and be and blow 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:45.960 on candles to light them, and your aunt is Stockard Channing. 0:37:46.400 --> 0:37:49.040 And so I wanted to dive as deep as I 0:37:49.040 --> 0:37:52.680 could into the practical magic sphere and practical magic. The 0:37:52.719 --> 0:37:55.279 film is based on a book by Alice Hoffman. So 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:57.760 I remember checking the book out from the library, because 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:00.239 I used to spend most of my time in the 0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:03.680 library at that point, and the book was not as 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:07.000 good as the movie. It's the book is much more 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:11.440 sort of magical realism, and like the magic is very 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.840 just kind of suggested. It's like kind of exists on 0:38:14.880 --> 0:38:18.160 the outside of things. So that was very disappointing. In 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:22.160 years since, though, Alice Hoffman has written both a prequel 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:25.719 to Practical Magic and a sequel to it, and then 0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:31.160 a fourth and final book. They're amazing. The prequel, especially, 0:38:31.160 --> 0:38:33.960 which is called The Rules of Magic, is my favorite 0:38:33.960 --> 0:38:38.440 of the four of them. It takes place in nineteen 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:41.839 seventies New York City and it's about the ants from 0:38:41.880 --> 0:38:46.280 the movie and their gay brother growing up as witches. 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:50.880 And it was in development as a series for HBO 0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:54.960 Max I think by Melissa Rosenberg, who's the screenwriter of 0:38:54.960 --> 0:39:00.080 the Twilight movies. But nothing has really ever happened with that, 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:02.040 so it would be so good. You should write for that. 0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:03.880 I should write for that. It might be one of 0:39:03.880 --> 0:39:07.600 those things that's kind of stuck in development, but it's 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:10.080 so good and if you need a spooky Halloween read, 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:14.360 I really recommend that. I love the Nicole Kidman's iteration 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:17.080 of the witch archetype, which we discussed in the Nicole 0:39:17.160 --> 0:39:24.719 Kidman episode, is dark, tortured, gorgeous woman. I love that 0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:28.440 she like elevated the which archetype. It's like, actually, which is, 0:39:28.480 --> 0:39:31.400 are not just these like kind of flat villains that 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:34.520 patently believe that Satan is their master and that they're 0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:38.480 here to terrorize humanity like some which is actually have 0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:44.839 shitty boyfriends, and some witches have beautiful, made well outfit. 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:47.040 Actually the fit isn't made well. The fit is giving 0:39:47.840 --> 0:40:04.319 free people. You know, what I love is that, you know, 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:09.440 culture obviously always swings back around. And while we had 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:14.680 in the you know, early and mid aughts that kind 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:18.440 of witchcraft in things like practical magic and charmed and stuff, 0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:22.960 now we have gotten to the point where we're now 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:26.400 swinging back to the pendulum. And I think what exemplifies 0:40:26.480 --> 0:40:31.960 that most of all is the movie The Vich Taylor. 0:40:32.280 --> 0:40:34.360 I was wondering what you were going to say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:38.440 So the for anyone who doesn't know, I really feel 0:40:38.440 --> 0:40:40.680 like if you listen to this podcast you can probably 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:46.920 see the witch um is basically what I love about 0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:50.560 it is it's the idea that what if the thing 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:55.239 that all of these fucking pilgrims were scared about, you know, 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:58.520 the thing that the thing that the Salem witch Trials 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:00.920 were predicated on, which is that there was this witch 0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:03.080 who sold her soul to the devil who's going to 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:06.080 come steal your children and eat them and like curse 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:10.240 your land blah blah blah. What if that actually happened. 0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:13.359 And the way that the witch was stylized was there 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:16.279 was the Witch a New England folk tale and so 0:41:16.360 --> 0:41:22.040 it's like this very literal version of that idea, and 0:41:22.080 --> 0:41:24.319 it's really bringing us back to the root of how 0:41:24.360 --> 0:41:29.359 the witch has always been seen in culture. And I 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:33.120 really liked that. It's like almost the most literal telling 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:37.960 of which story you know, of these people being plagued 0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:41.680 by a witch who steals their children and curses their crops, 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:46.320 and then it ends with this young girl signing herself 0:41:46.360 --> 0:41:49.040 over to the devil because she wants to live deliciously 0:41:49.719 --> 0:41:53.720 um and you know, floating up in the air into 0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:56.200 like an ecstatic origy of witches, which is like very 0:41:56.239 --> 0:42:00.200 reminiscent of that famous painting of all the Women floating. Ye, 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.360 it's a it's one of the most beautiful filmic finalees 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:07.520 and I think is honestly, it shows off what does best. 0:42:08.480 --> 0:42:14.040 It's probably my favorite movie. Um I. Honestly, since now 0:42:14.120 --> 0:42:17.720 that you've mentioned living Deliciously, um I, I think that 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:22.800 Um the Bitch doesn't have like necessarily a specific take 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:27.399 right on UM. The Salem Which Trials are the things 0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:31.560 that happened after it, right It's it's a very like folkloric, 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:38.040 true to the text portrayal of a witch that feels 0:42:38.080 --> 0:42:42.600 like somehow exactly in the period, but also hyper contemporary, 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:45.279 like she feels real as fuck. Like that is something 0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:47.799 that I love about this movie. But it should be 0:42:47.840 --> 0:42:52.960 said that like the Salem Witch Trials were literally just 0:42:53.360 --> 0:42:57.480 misogyny often like racialize misogyny right with like a Scooby 0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:00.799 Doo mask on it. Like they literally thought that this 0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:02.840 was richcraft and actually they just like hated when I 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:06.440 know I was. I was also really into the Salem 0:43:06.440 --> 0:43:08.960 Which trials as a concept when I was a kid. 0:43:09.560 --> 0:43:14.120 Um I went to Salem once and I did one 0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:17.040 year during October. I was in Salem just like the 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:20.200 real Houseves of New York. Yes, just like that, just 0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:23.200 like UM and I loved The Crucible. It was one 0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:26.239 of my favorite plays. I loved the film version with 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:29.759 Daniel day Lewis and Winona Writer. Yeah, they were really good. 0:43:29.880 --> 0:43:33.080 Winona's incredible in that movie. I would love to see 0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:35.399 a stage a stage production of it. Have you never 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:38.040 seen one? I think I maybe have, but I don't 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:41.960 remember if our high school did it or if I 0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:45.320 saw it somewhere. But something that I like about The Crucible, 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:50.160 and It's like contribution to the discourse, is that cultural 0:43:50.239 --> 0:43:53.600 mania had like fatal consequences, you know what I mean, 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.160 like zooming out of that. Arthur Miller was trying to 0:43:57.200 --> 0:44:01.520 say something about McCarthy is um. Yes, oh yeah, literally, 0:44:01.640 --> 0:44:04.520 McCarthy is m and like how we as a culture 0:44:05.320 --> 0:44:10.720 to this day still create mania and um dangerous group 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:14.439 think that has fatal consequences. Yes, well, I do think 0:44:14.480 --> 0:44:19.480 it's important for us to talk about the place of 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:25.640 the witch in culture, as she or they have existed 0:44:26.200 --> 0:44:28.759 through the entirety of history. You know, the which is 0:44:29.320 --> 0:44:35.040 the other the witch is unbridled powerful femininity that must 0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:38.719 be hung or burned to the state or chained. Um. 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:42.480 You know, the which is our fear of someone who 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:46.799 society has decided should not have power, having too much 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:49.359 of it, right, And I think that honestly, I don't 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:52.360 know where she falls into the chronology of like a 0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:55.759 history of witches, but like I always think of like Lilith, right, 0:44:56.040 --> 0:45:01.840 and like her place in this can in of women 0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:04.879 with mystical powers that were like scorned by society, um 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:07.640 for the virgins that don't know our friend Channing has 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:09.239 like given like given me a lot of context and 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:13.920 like Lilith, and like her place in the Talmud, and 0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:19.120 like in Jewish folklore, and how in some iterations of 0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:21.480 the text she's like the o G Eve of Adam 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:25.160 and Eve and Adam's first wife. Yes, yeah, yeah, in 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:28.360 some like people have different like ways of interpreting, like 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:30.680 where Lilith comes from or whatever, but yeah, if she 0:45:30.800 --> 0:45:34.239 is adams first wife. Adam was basically like, you have 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:38.719 to lie under me, you have to subject yourself to me, 0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:42.320 and Lilith literally was like no, because wasn't the issue 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:46.759 that Lilith was created alongside Adam so saw herself as 0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:49.600 his equal, and then once she was cast out of Eden. 0:45:49.680 --> 0:45:52.400 That's why Eve was created from Adam's ribs, so she 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:55.960 would always be subjugated to him. Well, I think it's 0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.360 somewhere in the Babylonian Talmud. It's like the rib is 0:45:58.400 --> 0:46:00.239 not present. They are supposed to be eating well. And 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:04.200 Adam was like, nowhere not equal, and Lilith was like, yes, 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:10.000 we are. And she refused, basically to participate in this union, 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:14.280 and she left Eden speaking of living deliciously. She left 0:46:14.440 --> 0:46:20.040 Eden because she knew that pleasure was more powerful than 0:46:20.080 --> 0:46:23.920 perfection and the promise of Eden. Sorry, this is very philosophical, 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:25.480 but I have like a lot of thoughts on Lilith 0:46:25.520 --> 0:46:29.239 slash slash like have like a little tatoo. Oh my god, 0:46:29.320 --> 0:46:31.160 I want like a real that's like so good. I 0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:34.040 want like an actual more explicitly Lilith tattoo like yours 0:46:34.200 --> 0:46:38.239 m Rose has. What is this that the symbols um 0:46:38.280 --> 0:46:42.600 but um. The promise of Eden was perfection right like 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:46.239 God was like, if you stay here, we all get 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:49.040 to be perfect forever because there's no sin here. And 0:46:49.160 --> 0:46:53.240 Lilith was like, wait, hold up, sin actually makes life 0:46:54.000 --> 0:47:02.320 imperfect and therefore fun interesting, like compelling, emotional, like leisure, pain, chaos, 0:47:02.360 --> 0:47:05.720 magic are the things that it's not like the taste 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:08.680 of butter. What's that like to wear a part address 0:47:08.400 --> 0:47:10.960 would like to live deliciously and those are the things 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.120 that make life worth living. And and Lilith is also 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:16.520 thought of as the mother of demons, that she left 0:47:16.680 --> 0:47:20.640 Eden and became the yes and so and and in 0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:23.960 some tellings the first witch. Yes, she is a Hecata 0:47:24.560 --> 0:47:30.040 like figure that became a culturally demonized, like portrayal of 0:47:30.120 --> 0:47:36.080 like evil women basically because the witch in many different 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:40.680 cultures and histories like is a figure who's who's kind 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:45.000 of purpose and allegiances, and like good or evil or 0:47:45.040 --> 0:47:49.040 neutrality is always shifting based on who was telling the 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:52.200 story and what the agenda is, and and usually if 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:54.279 that story is being told by a man, because if 0:47:54.320 --> 0:47:57.640 it is being told man or being told by men 0:47:57.800 --> 0:48:01.000 by the patriarchy, then the witch is you know, evil 0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:04.399 and corrupting and an agent of Satan. If it's being 0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:06.560 told by women, you know, there there have been witches 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:10.040 in many cultures who are the healers and the midwives 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:13.360 and you know, the soothsayers and the wise women of 0:48:13.400 --> 0:48:17.920 the village. And it's just very you know, interesting, how 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:23.719 we can all agree that this type of woman, specifically 0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:29.960 um has always existed and there are so many different 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.920 variations like just today and all the different pieces of 0:48:32.960 --> 0:48:36.120 media we're talking about, there's so many different ideas of 0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:39.560 what a witch has been and could be. And that's 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:43.400 what I think is so fascinating about the idea of 0:48:43.440 --> 0:48:46.239 a witch is that she can be anything because she 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:51.160 has been everything um and the possibilities are endless. That's 0:48:51.160 --> 0:48:54.760 why I think people return to witches in storytelling over 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:58.160 and over and over again. Yeah, and I I it's 0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:02.000 also and also because a witch is someone who asserts 0:49:02.040 --> 0:49:04.200 their will upon the world, who looks at the world 0:49:04.239 --> 0:49:08.640 and says, no, this will change. Witchcraft is manifesting. We're 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:11.680 tran infesting your will upon the world and changing it 0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:13.880 through magic. And I think it's very interesting that like 0:49:14.040 --> 0:49:19.320 right now and maybe for the last like five plus years, 0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:24.400 there has been at least in America, like a a 0:49:24.560 --> 0:49:32.520 greater acceptance or popularity of astrology, mysticism, you know, tera 0:49:33.440 --> 0:49:37.680 things that have been culturally stigmatized in the kind of 0:49:37.719 --> 0:49:41.960 like eighties and nineties that now have pre eminence because 0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.000 culturally we are just like moving further and further away 0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:49.320 from Christianity and moving further and further away from organized 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:53.680 religion as we've like discovered that it is responsible for 0:49:53.719 --> 0:49:55.960 pretty much like all of the oppressive forces on the 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:58.839 planet since the dawn of time for the most part. 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:03.279 And I feel like, as like witchcraft, or like mysticism, 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:06.759 or like whatever our way into the other worldly and 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:09.919 the occult is. Now that we don't have God, it's 0:50:09.920 --> 0:50:11.839 like we're trying to find other things that to make 0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.520 our lives make sense, and that witchcraft is something that 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:19.799 is inherently empowering and subcultural and therefore has even more 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:24.040 cultural value now. Yeah, well, I think it's very telling 0:50:24.200 --> 0:50:26.560 that the time in my life that I found myself 0:50:27.000 --> 0:50:29.440 most identifying as a witch, the time in my life 0:50:29.440 --> 0:50:32.360 when I felt the most spiritual and was kind of 0:50:32.400 --> 0:50:35.600 the most able to do kind of a you know, 0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:39.120 like let myself do things like be part of ritual 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:42.920 and um, you know, have an alter at home, were 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:45.120 the times of my life when I was most deeply 0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:48.200 invested in community. Um, and you did it before it 0:50:48.239 --> 0:50:51.160 was popular, before it was like popular in the way 0:50:51.200 --> 0:50:53.600 it is now around. Yeah, but I think there is 0:50:53.680 --> 0:50:56.520 something to be said about the times of my life 0:50:56.520 --> 0:51:00.959 when I was deeply invested in queer community and queer 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.760 community spaces and spaces that we're aiming to be sort 0:51:04.760 --> 0:51:08.759 of transcendent and like um, you know, ecstatic and sort 0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.719 of the truest sense of the word. Those were the 0:51:11.760 --> 0:51:17.839 places where magic felt kind of possible and also where 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:22.600 trying to make magic was actually happening. Is because in 0:51:22.640 --> 0:51:25.719 those like liminal spaces, it does feel kind of like 0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:29.359 something that's achievable, Like when you're in a room full 0:51:29.360 --> 0:51:33.440 of queer people in this like sort of sacred space 0:51:33.480 --> 0:51:36.720 that you have created against all odds, it does feel 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:40.560 like you can maybe achieve something like alchemical or transformative 0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:47.279 or even divine. And you know, nowadays I don't have 0:51:47.400 --> 0:51:51.040 as much time for that, but it is time consuming, 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:53.279 It is time consuming. But like I have, you know, 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:58.960 I have been part of large scale rituals, both in 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:03.560 more like nightlife centric spaces and then also in fairy 0:52:03.640 --> 0:52:08.719 spaces and sort of communal spaces out in nature, and 0:52:08.840 --> 0:52:11.120 there is you know, I do think there's something to 0:52:11.120 --> 0:52:13.800 be said for like mass illusion and mass hysteria, but 0:52:14.280 --> 0:52:18.920 I have I have definitely felt real magic. Yeah, I 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:22.719 have absolutely felt it. But I think that honestly, like 0:52:22.760 --> 0:52:25.120 I wish Channey was here, um, but like I do 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:27.680 think that our friend, n our friend Channing Nicholas. I 0:52:27.680 --> 0:52:30.840 think that the popularity of like work like hers is 0:52:30.880 --> 0:52:33.960 something that even she would like talk about a nuance, 0:52:34.000 --> 0:52:36.319 like saying that like both can exist, right, Like we 0:52:36.440 --> 0:52:40.880 have these spaces of mysticism that are empowering and important 0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:44.880 for personal growth, or like the actual cultivation of magic. 0:52:44.920 --> 0:52:48.560 And then there's also this like cult thing that's happening that, 0:52:48.920 --> 0:52:54.480 especially in the twenties, is now becoming an erasure honestly 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:58.719 of like practices that are ancient, indigenous, historically black things 0:52:58.760 --> 0:53:01.319 like that. So like when we have like sage and 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:08.839 crystals and Breweri, like non Christian iterations of a kind 0:53:08.840 --> 0:53:12.280 of magical belief system. I think even something as common 0:53:12.320 --> 0:53:14.879 as it is now to hear someone say I didn't 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:19.080 like their energy or or I'm not feeling the vibe 0:53:19.239 --> 0:53:22.440 that has really trapped, that has really worked its way 0:53:22.560 --> 0:53:27.040 into our vernacular way that I don't think it existed before. 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:31.600 And we we live in a society that I believe 0:53:31.719 --> 0:53:36.080 has accepted the idea that there is some sort of 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:40.400 metaphysical plane we all exist on. And so when j 0:53:40.560 --> 0:53:44.200 Lo said get the Virgo off of my dance crew, 0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:49.120 I'm not watching. Yeah, she was partaking in the very 0:53:49.120 --> 0:53:52.120 thing you're you're alluding to. She was speaking of dance. 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:56.200 One film that I wish that you would watch that 0:53:56.280 --> 0:53:59.920 I'm sure you never will is Suspiria. Oh yeah, I 0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:02.759 watched the first I don't know how long, but I 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:06.239 watch up until the contortion. Okay, well the movies three 0:54:06.239 --> 0:54:12.520 hours long, Jesus Christ. I So the original Suspiria, which 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:14.960 is the Dario or Gento film, it's like a very 0:54:15.000 --> 0:54:19.000 fame to ten. It's yes, it is um not the original, 0:54:19.080 --> 0:54:21.680 the new one. The Dario Argendo film is like a 0:54:21.800 --> 0:54:25.960 very psychedelic seventies horror film that is really considered a classic. 0:54:26.000 --> 0:54:29.640 It was remade by Luca guard Nino, who directed Call 0:54:29.719 --> 0:54:34.960 Me by Your Name in starring Tilda Swinton and Dakota 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:38.080 Johnson and Mia Goth who's having a glow up a 0:54:38.120 --> 0:54:42.840 moment right now. I really prefer the remake to the original. 0:54:43.480 --> 0:54:47.680 And I think the idea of a coven of witches 0:54:49.160 --> 0:54:53.240 using the cover of being a dance company is really 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:56.839 interesting and it just leads to so many incredible set 0:54:56.880 --> 0:55:01.640 pieces of of movement as magic. And that's something like, 0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:04.640 you know, going back to what I was talking about before, 0:55:04.800 --> 0:55:07.960 like I think some of the times of my life 0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:09.839 when I felt the most like I was part of 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:12.440 something larger than myself and like felt a tune to 0:55:12.480 --> 0:55:15.120 the people around me and felt something magical was when 0:55:15.120 --> 0:55:18.080 I was dancing. Yeah, And honestly, it reminds me a 0:55:18.080 --> 0:55:21.319 lot of what I think most people believed to be 0:55:21.400 --> 0:55:25.120 the best scene in midsom Are when Florence Pugh is 0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:28.960 being like kind of pulled into that clan of women 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:31.920 and having her kind of grief in her grief state 0:55:32.160 --> 0:55:35.719 is like reckoning with the infidelity that's going on right 0:55:35.760 --> 0:55:39.120 in front of her, and she starts moving and breathing 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:41.920 in tandem with that crowd of women. Do you remember that? 0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:46.359 Like it reminds me. I think that combined with the rich, 0:55:46.719 --> 0:55:53.240 combined with Um the movie Suspiria all kind of build 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:57.280 on the communal aspect that you're talking about, how the coven, 0:55:57.440 --> 0:56:03.759 the coven is actually a gorgeous metaphor of sisterhood, and 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:08.960 how the subjugation and ostrichization of women and fems creates 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:12.799 a more equitable power that you now have. Sometimes it does, 0:56:13.080 --> 0:56:16.799 unless you are in American horror story um and then 0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:21.040 and then all it does is pit women against each 0:56:21.040 --> 0:56:23.319 other do you like that series, because I feel like 0:56:23.719 --> 0:56:27.880 I haven't. I've only watched that American Horror Story season 0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:30.040 from beginning to end. It's the only one I've completed. 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:33.120 But people always say it's the best one. It's not 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:35.239 my favorite one. I see why people think it's the 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:37.480 best one, because I think it's I think it's the 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:41.560 most fun and the most campy. Um My faith is 0:56:41.960 --> 0:56:49.399 honestly probably Hotel Gaga or maybe Murder House. I think 0:56:49.560 --> 0:56:54.120 the best season of American Horror Story is Asylum, but 0:56:54.200 --> 0:56:57.800 it's not what I want to rewatch um. Coven is fun, 0:56:57.920 --> 0:57:02.080 It's just a little too silly, and I think, you 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:04.719 know the problem that every season of American Horror Story 0:57:04.840 --> 0:57:07.920 has is that they start out so strong and then 0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:10.360 halfway through the season is like, what are we gonna 0:57:10.360 --> 0:57:13.280 do now? And that's very much what happens with Kevin. 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:16.760 And the first couple episodes of Coven are so fun. Uh. 0:57:16.800 --> 0:57:20.880 When Covin was airing, I was watching it at live 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:24.040 viewings in Brooklyn, which were so fun because this was 0:57:24.080 --> 0:57:28.800 like peak and when Ryan had like the most cultural 0:57:28.840 --> 0:57:32.120 power he has. What I don't like about Covin, I 0:57:32.160 --> 0:57:35.840 think is that I mean Unfortunately this is also just 0:57:35.880 --> 0:57:39.160 a Ryan Murphy thing, and that he does this amazing 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:42.080 thing where he creates roles for the older actresses, but 0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:46.200 often what he's writing in those roles is women who 0:57:46.200 --> 0:57:48.800 are obsessed with youth and regaining youth. And that's what 0:57:48.880 --> 0:57:53.120 I didn't love about Covin was that the whole story 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:56.200 was about this woman who wants to hang onto youth 0:57:57.080 --> 0:58:01.400 by any means necessary, and that youth equates to power. 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:05.160 When I think the great thing about which is historically 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:10.240 is that which is are one of the few, you know, 0:58:10.360 --> 0:58:13.520 archetypes we have in culture of a powerful older woman, 0:58:13.560 --> 0:58:16.800 a powerful woman that has no problem being and also 0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:21.120 which is historically honor all the points of womanhood. Like 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:24.080 when you talk about Hecate and the Triple Goddess, It's 0:58:24.160 --> 0:58:28.280 Maiden mother Crone. It's recognizing that those three parts of 0:58:28.320 --> 0:58:32.440 a woman's life are all equally important. Yeah, And like 0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:35.080 while we love like hot fashion, which is like we 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:40.080 love our Kieran and Schipkasas and like all that jazz, 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:43.120 it's like actually like in the mad, mad amm of it, 0:58:43.160 --> 0:58:46.440 all the power of a witch is that she's like, 0:58:46.880 --> 0:58:50.400 I am as ugly as you can imagine and yet 0:58:51.000 --> 0:58:53.440 that that is no detriment to like my power and 0:58:53.480 --> 0:58:55.800 the power that I have over you. Right where in 0:58:55.960 --> 0:58:59.640 like non magical society, the uglier you are, the less 0:58:59.680 --> 0:59:02.080 power you have. But the Witch is like, you can 0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:04.560 do whatever you want to me, like you can't touch me. 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:08.240 It's not even necessarily even ugliness. It's literally just age, 0:59:08.480 --> 0:59:10.880 you know, yes, right, sure, I was going to say 0:59:10.960 --> 0:59:12.400 on the Coven of it all? So I watched it 0:59:12.400 --> 0:59:15.439 for the first time last year, did you know that? Um, 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:18.520 it's the only HS that I have finished that I 0:59:18.600 --> 0:59:22.680 did watch a lot of Murder House, and um, I'm 0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:26.640 really shook by how many big swings he took to 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:31.320 like talk about black culture within like the show, but 0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:35.600 like it was never like built upon or like fleshed out. 0:59:35.680 --> 0:59:38.040 And also like he never had any black writers in 0:59:38.080 --> 0:59:41.040 his room, I don't think, or at least that's what 0:59:41.080 --> 0:59:43.080 I remember looking at when I was like watching it. 0:59:43.800 --> 0:59:49.800 Francis Conroy's character in Coven to me is like Ryan 0:59:49.840 --> 0:59:54.080 Murphietta's best right, A witch who cares, Yes, a witch 0:59:54.160 --> 0:59:58.200 who cares about labels is genius, and it cares about 0:59:58.240 --> 1:00:01.479 labels and is a snob, like is a maybe even 1:00:01.520 --> 1:00:03.920 like a classist. Like I thought that was so interesting 1:00:04.320 --> 1:00:07.120 the things that he was trying to say about like racism, 1:00:07.160 --> 1:00:09.320 and how like Kathy Bates was like this kind of 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:14.400 belligerently white supremacist person who like learned her lesson by 1:00:14.440 --> 1:00:16.600 way of like Gabby Citabit. I was like, this did 1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:19.720 not age well at all, Like doesn't make any sense 1:00:19.720 --> 1:00:21.960 to me. But again, it like came out at the 1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:26.440 exact right time, probably like came out exactly before people 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:31.080 were fully canceling or like trying to call critique to 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:35.480 things like this, right, Um, but yeah, I think the 1:00:35.520 --> 1:00:37.680 fact that it is a covenant like to our point, 1:00:37.760 --> 1:00:40.560 like that Coven's have this kind of like cultural meaning 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:44.280 throughout time makes it one of Ryan Murphy's greatest contributions. 1:00:44.520 --> 1:00:48.040 And in and I you know, I like, um, you know, 1:00:48.080 --> 1:00:53.120 a solitary which story, you know, the Kikys of the world, 1:00:53.480 --> 1:00:56.480 and you know, um, but I think some of my 1:00:56.600 --> 1:01:00.920 favorite which stories are about sisterhood in community. That's why 1:01:00.960 --> 1:01:04.200 I love which is of Eastwick and practical Magic and 1:01:04.600 --> 1:01:09.400 even the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, which you know had 1:01:09.480 --> 1:01:15.200 its issues. I was so excited about how it started. 1:01:15.480 --> 1:01:17.880 And I think it has one of the best trailers 1:01:18.000 --> 1:01:19.800 for a TV show ever made. As I think the 1:01:19.840 --> 1:01:22.120 first season, well maybe not the last two episodes, but 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:25.200 the first season was season is really good. Um, the 1:01:25.360 --> 1:01:27.880 end was not great, but I think that show was 1:01:27.960 --> 1:01:31.160 most effective when it brought the witches together and you 1:01:31.240 --> 1:01:34.880 really felt that sense of like family and sisterhood, and 1:01:35.440 --> 1:01:38.520 that writer's room was also like black and trans right 1:01:38.560 --> 1:01:44.440 and they try to bring voodoo back to indigen eighty 1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:46.480 into blackness, which I thought was cool. Like there are 1:01:46.480 --> 1:01:48.880 a lot of things about the Sabrina franchise that was 1:01:49.920 --> 1:01:53.760 slightly reparative or trying to restore what maybe was erased 1:01:53.960 --> 1:01:57.640 in the the you know, the cannon of witchcraft, and 1:01:57.680 --> 1:01:59.920 you know that's something that if you look at Harry Potter, 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:03.000 like there was never a moment in Harry Potter, despite 1:02:03.000 --> 1:02:04.800 the fact that it was about a war and obviously 1:02:05.120 --> 1:02:06.840 you know, being on different side of the sides of 1:02:06.880 --> 1:02:11.440 the war and like fighting alongside people they're like magic 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:14.680 system was one in which it was all about individual power. 1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:17.920 Was never a moment where we saw people like doing 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:21.760 a spell together, And I don't know that's like maybe 1:02:21.880 --> 1:02:23.880 just a weird aside, but I think it's like very 1:02:23.920 --> 1:02:25.640 telling of the person who wrote it. I was just 1:02:25.680 --> 1:02:28.400 gonna say, actually, that is kind of interesting. Like the 1:02:28.440 --> 1:02:33.240 only kind of communal, the communal like moments of magic 1:02:33.320 --> 1:02:35.800 in Harry Potter that I can think of are like 1:02:37.720 --> 1:02:40.840 what like when they when they build a fortress around 1:02:41.400 --> 1:02:43.040 But that's the only in the movies. It's not in 1:02:43.120 --> 1:02:44.760 the books. You know, it's not the book. It's not 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:46.440 in the books, and you know what that scene is, 1:02:46.480 --> 1:02:49.040 so you know, there's no like Harry Potter that's a 1:02:49.040 --> 1:02:52.440 magic system. Where I think magic in Harry Potter is 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:56.080 so banal and so every day and there's no sense 1:02:56.120 --> 1:02:58.960 of like wonder about it, and there's no real ritual 1:02:59.120 --> 1:03:02.120 around magic. There isn't um and I think that's kind 1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:04.840 of boring. I I prefer, you know, like I loved 1:03:04.840 --> 1:03:07.959 and Charmed when they would cold hands and say a spell. Yeah, 1:03:08.000 --> 1:03:10.320 Harry Potter was trying to do a different version of it. 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:12.880 But I will say, honestly, that scene where they're creating 1:03:12.880 --> 1:03:16.760 the fortress and when mcgonicall like um anthropomorphizes the statues 1:03:16.880 --> 1:03:20.840 makes me cry every time, sobbing and also sobbing, shitting 1:03:20.920 --> 1:03:23.640 throwing up. I was literally and that's not exactly. I 1:03:23.720 --> 1:03:27.560 remember physically crying, and I also think in the books, 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:32.120 I'm pretty sure it's my favorite scene in the entire franchise. 1:03:32.400 --> 1:03:52.600 It's go we you know, have come so far from 1:03:52.640 --> 1:03:56.520 the you know, original iconography of the witch, like even 1:03:56.600 --> 1:04:00.680 from you know, Shakespeare, like oh yeah, the Three Witches, 1:04:01.080 --> 1:04:05.240 double double toil and troubles um, get something, get this 1:04:05.320 --> 1:04:07.760 where it comes and now and now I think we're 1:04:07.760 --> 1:04:12.880 at a point where we're looking back at historical witches 1:04:13.400 --> 1:04:16.080 through a different lens. Like you know, we've talked about 1:04:16.080 --> 1:04:19.680 the Madeline Miller effect on this podcast before. If you 1:04:19.720 --> 1:04:23.800 haven't read the novel Searcy, it's about Searcy, who's a 1:04:23.800 --> 1:04:26.880 demigoddess and you know, sort of the original witch in 1:04:26.960 --> 1:04:30.640 Greek mythology, and it's about her discovering that she is. 1:04:30.920 --> 1:04:34.160 You know, she kind of invents Switchcraft. I would kind 1:04:34.160 --> 1:04:39.080 of love to see that take applied to Like what 1:04:39.120 --> 1:04:42.680 if there was like a Madeline Miller esque Macbeth book 1:04:42.840 --> 1:04:47.760 on the Three Witches. You know, I'll bet you it 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:52.240 does exist somewhere, but like, honestly, like the witches in Macbeth, honestly, 1:04:52.320 --> 1:04:56.040 like their whole function is like prophecy right, like they're 1:04:56.080 --> 1:05:00.200 the fates of the story, but they don't have any 1:05:00.240 --> 1:05:02.560 sort of like interiority or anything that really would be 1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:05.280 a good Um, we should write that, Orangine. I'm sure. 1:05:05.320 --> 1:05:07.840 I'm sure it's been done in some kind of way. 1:05:08.080 --> 1:05:13.680 And now, of my thumbs and of the wicked witches 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:18.440 in the culture, right now we have the Queen herself, 1:05:18.560 --> 1:05:23.640 Miss Wanda, Yes who this is chaos, This is chaos 1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:26.920 magic Wanda. I do think that Wanda is maybe the 1:05:26.960 --> 1:05:32.280 most culturally relevant which making work right now. She is. 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:39.240 I'm trying to think of any others, like Sabrina is 1:05:39.280 --> 1:05:42.600 no longer relevant unfortunately, though I do think that Sabrina 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:46.280 was what you were saying, that that kind of taking 1:05:46.280 --> 1:05:49.200 the witch narrative and making it something very contemporary. I mean, 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:51.960 it's been a while since we did our Multiverse of 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:56.360 Madness episode and I have since rewatched it and I 1:05:56.480 --> 1:06:00.760 have kind of like shifted my take, please, which is 1:06:00.840 --> 1:06:02.800 I don't think it's a very good movie, and I 1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:05.360 think it kind of did want to dirty, and I 1:06:05.400 --> 1:06:08.320 think it kind of erodes all the character development that 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:14.040 happened in one division because because she's so flatly villainous. Yes, 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.440 I agree with that, because she's way more complex in 1:06:17.480 --> 1:06:20.800 the show, and so it is to me really discarding. 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:23.800 And she's also just not the main character, which is frustrating, 1:06:23.840 --> 1:06:26.080 and it just shows that she didn't learn her lesson, 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:29.640 because the whole of wand Division is about her realizing 1:06:29.680 --> 1:06:33.280 that she can't use magic to get something she wants 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:37.840 at other people's expense, and she literally starts over and 1:06:37.880 --> 1:06:40.280 does that again in Doctor Strange. I also thought the 1:06:40.320 --> 1:06:43.480 way she was vanquished was unbelievable, Like she got crushed 1:06:43.480 --> 1:06:45.920 by I was like, I was, obviously she's not that, 1:06:46.600 --> 1:06:50.880 but I think she vanquished herself and disappeared, and I 1:06:50.920 --> 1:06:53.080 hope there's more from her. I hope we get like 1:06:53.640 --> 1:06:59.720 one of Wanda's actual iconic storylines from the comics. I 1:06:59.760 --> 1:07:03.280 think get will probably be a while, just because they 1:07:03.360 --> 1:07:06.480 need to do so much setting up this next the 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:09.480 next few phases of the m c U for us 1:07:09.520 --> 1:07:12.960 to get to Mutants and like possibly to like House 1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:16.240 of m and is Agatha slated for next year though? 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:20.240 Next year? Yeah, Agatha, And it has a new name now, 1:07:20.280 --> 1:07:24.200 it's COVID of Chaos. Why so you know this? The 1:07:24.280 --> 1:07:28.400 thing is because witches have always existed in culture, and 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:34.200 in pop culture they are cyclical, So I think we 1:07:34.360 --> 1:07:40.080 are due for a more kind of full throated, like 1:07:40.600 --> 1:07:45.880 actual resurgence of a lot of different types of witches 1:07:46.000 --> 1:07:49.240 in media at some point. The way that we have 1:07:49.400 --> 1:07:54.320 gotten on and off with vampires, with werewolves, with all 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:57.000 of the above, and things like true Blood. Um, the 1:07:57.000 --> 1:08:01.040 witches and true Blood kind of suck though, Um God, 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:03.240 I could talk. I could talk for hours about which 1:08:03.360 --> 1:08:05.520 is I could too, honestly, And I think a lot 1:08:05.560 --> 1:08:07.720 of it has to do with the fact that by 1:08:07.760 --> 1:08:11.480 definition they are a part of a subculture and therefore 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:14.800 inherently like queer slash trans you know what I mean. Like, 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:17.280 I think that in terms of like what I would 1:08:17.320 --> 1:08:21.320 love to see from future which stories is something of 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:24.880 what Sabrina was trying to do, which is, show us 1:08:24.920 --> 1:08:27.080 a slate of which or maybe the Charmed reboot, you 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:29.160 know what I mean, show us a slate of which 1:08:29.240 --> 1:08:35.960 is that place witchcraft in queerness, tranceness, ostragization. Well, that 1:08:36.080 --> 1:08:38.360 happened in a book that I talked about on this 1:08:38.400 --> 1:08:42.720 podcast recently, Her Majesty's Royal Coven by Juno Dawson. I 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:46.080 described it sort of shortly then, but I'll like describe 1:08:46.120 --> 1:08:48.880 it a little bit more at length here. So it's 1:08:48.920 --> 1:08:53.120 a novel about a society in England in which witches 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:57.960 have always had kind of a secret shadow government inside 1:08:58.120 --> 1:09:02.800 the actual government, and they govern themselves and you know, 1:09:03.000 --> 1:09:07.680 deal with supernatural events and have like liaisons with the 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:11.280 main government. And a couple of years before the novel 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:14.800 takes place, there was a magical war, and so the 1:09:14.840 --> 1:09:18.200 main characters are all now coming off a couple of 1:09:18.240 --> 1:09:20.320 years since that war ended. There are a group of 1:09:20.360 --> 1:09:23.639 friends who grew up together very closely. They're all witches, 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:26.439 and they've now all kind of fallen out of touch. 1:09:27.040 --> 1:09:29.800 And one of the witches has broken off from the 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:33.400 main coven because it was entirely made up of white witches, 1:09:33.720 --> 1:09:37.439 and she's now formed her own more inclusive coven um 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:41.400 that's I think called diaspora, which is like a bit 1:09:41.600 --> 1:09:45.560 on the nose. But and then, you know, most interestingly, 1:09:46.400 --> 1:09:50.640 um so in this world, witches are only women, and 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:54.640 they are significantly more powerful than their male counterparts, warlocks. 1:09:55.240 --> 1:09:57.880 And they find a child who they believed to be 1:09:57.960 --> 1:10:00.880 the anti Christ. He's a boy who has much more 1:10:00.920 --> 1:10:04.360 magical ability than he should have. And as it turns out, 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:08.880 this person is a trans woman and that's why she 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:12.960 is more powerful, and so it has all of the 1:10:13.040 --> 1:10:17.679 characters kind of question how they feel about that. Several 1:10:17.680 --> 1:10:21.000 of them were like, oh, it makes sense, she's a girl, 1:10:21.040 --> 1:10:23.559 that's why she's more powerful, and there's never really a 1:10:23.680 --> 1:10:27.320 question of like the science or like the magic, just 1:10:27.400 --> 1:10:30.080 like some of them obviously have to work through different 1:10:30.080 --> 1:10:33.280 ways that they feel about it, but they do kind 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:36.080 of say like, Okay, well, this person is who she is. 1:10:36.360 --> 1:10:39.920 But then one of the women who is the leader 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:45.000 of the coven is a turf and doesn't want this 1:10:45.200 --> 1:10:50.479 person invading women's spaces. Remember you telling me that it's 1:10:50.640 --> 1:10:54.080 it's it's a really really good book and it does 1:10:54.160 --> 1:10:56.040 all of those things that you were just talking about, 1:10:56.040 --> 1:10:59.960 which is need this movie adaptation, which is placing these 1:11:00.160 --> 1:11:04.559 archetypes and kind of the same stories we tell about, 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:07.759 which is over and over again in a very contemporary setting, 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:11.639 and like throwing identity politics at them and seeing how 1:11:12.200 --> 1:11:15.080 they work out. And that's something I'm so interested to 1:11:15.160 --> 1:11:19.080 see what the next evolution of the Witch as a 1:11:19.120 --> 1:11:22.600 cultural figure is and I think we will be the 1:11:22.600 --> 1:11:32.400 ones to do it. Yeah, we will be the ones. Okay, 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:36.000 So that is down on week one of our special 1:11:36.080 --> 1:11:40.920 Halloween Extravaganza. Next week we'll be back with two new episodes. 1:11:41.200 --> 1:11:44.720 A special episode all about Silence of the Lambs which 1:11:44.720 --> 1:11:46.880 I've never seen, which friend has never seen, and then 1:11:46.920 --> 1:11:49.920 on Thursday and episode all about Tim Burton. So go 1:11:50.000 --> 1:11:54.960 back watch Edward Scissor Hands or Sleepy Hollow or Beetlejuice, 1:11:55.080 --> 1:11:59.439 whatever and um in the meantime finals. On social, you 1:11:59.560 --> 1:12:04.200 can tag our finsta at Like a Virgin, slide into 1:12:04.240 --> 1:12:06.679 our d ms. We want to hear from you. Also, 1:12:06.960 --> 1:12:09.800 please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:12.880 on Spotify. It helps us out so much. We cannot 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:15.800 tell you how much. I'm your co host Rose Damn You, 1:12:16.160 --> 1:12:18.719 and I am fran Dorato. You can find me anywhere 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:20.800 on Social at Rose Damn You. You can find me 1:12:20.800 --> 1:12:23.760 at Franz Squish co. You can subscribe to Like a 1:12:23.840 --> 1:12:26.800 Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts. Like a Virgin is 1:12:26.840 --> 1:12:29.960 an i Heeart radio production. Our producer is phoebe Unter, 1:12:30.200 --> 1:12:33.840 with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Trich 1:12:34.000 --> 1:12:37.759 and Nikkiatur until next week. Double double toil and trouble 1:12:38.840 --> 1:12:43.479 until next week. Sisters, we've f lie lim My Brande