1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: Does something wicked this way, comrades something wicked this way 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: is about to come all over your face. No, if 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: you had a familiar, you know, a which is familiar, 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: what would it be you? Cat girl? No? No, no, no, 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm not a cat. Toad girl, not a dog girl, 6 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: not a toad girl. Some kind of bird. I think 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: it would be some kind of bird. An owl? No, 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: not an owl? No? Um, what would you while I 9 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: think about this, what would yours? Because I'm sure you 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: have an immediate answer. Okay, well I'm allergic to cats, 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 1: so that's not gonna work. No. Dogs are a lot 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: of work. Dogs are a lot of work. I think, um, 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: a wild animal who was kind of independent and just 14 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: was like there when they needed them, So like a 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: wolf who did did he did my bidding? But also, 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean a bird is nice because they can sort 17 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: of like carry messages for you. They can, but maybe 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: a snake. Wolves are really good as defenders, though I 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: like not like a wolf. Also because of the sort 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: of vampiric implications, you know, like Dracula can turn into 21 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: a world. I would pick a big cat. I would 22 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: do like a bobcat, a jaguar, a wildcat of some kind. 23 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to have a wolf who can turn into 24 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: a dog when I need them to, like when we 25 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: go to Arawan, becomes a dog and they're like a 26 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: service dog. That's an anxiety dog. An anxiety dog. Okay, 27 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: so we have our familiars. Today we are talking about witchcraft. 28 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: We're talking about witchcraft, witches, um, the occult covens, magic um, mysticism, mysticism, 29 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: hocus poky, spookies, something like it this way, colm uh, 30 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: and we're going to dive deep into our own experience 31 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: as witches. The formative media about witches that have made 32 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: us the witches we are today, and um prevalence of 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: witch culture. What does it mean in Yeah, so hop 34 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: on your roomstick, because this is like a virgin the 35 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: show we give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes armors. Damn you. 36 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm Fran Toronto. So that's really that's too good. That 37 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: was just a normal laugh. That was actually fully my 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 1: normal law Rose. The visions need to know that when 39 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: you and I go to an anci theater, especially you 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: know if it's at like a mall like the Grove 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: or like a MC CityWalk or whatever, the price of 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: dressing cool is that teens feel comfortable walking up to 43 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 1: us and asking us if we'll be in there TikTok's. Yeah, 44 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: it finally has happened. Um, we have we have been 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: stopped by those people who make TikTok's where they have 46 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: a microphone and ask people questions. We were stopped and 47 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: in Unison, this little girlie said, Hi, can we ask 48 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: you a question for a TikTok? We just in Unison 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: went no and kept and kept it push it. Oh. 50 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: We didn't even stop, like we were just like no, no no, no, no, no, 51 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: no no. We had our Saphora bags and we were 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: up up in a way and uh. We have to say, 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: we had a handful of things to talk about this week, 54 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: but I think that just for today we're maybe only 55 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: going to talk about one movie we saw this weekend. Yes, 56 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: because as queer podcasters, it is our sacred duty, yeah, 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: to have an official take on Bros. Starring Billy Eichner, 58 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,239 Speaker 1: which is kind of if you've heard of it. We're 59 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: being jokey because it actually might not have heard of 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: it because a lot of people haven't seen it. Someone 61 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: two people texting me this weekend and they were like, 62 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: what is this Bros. Controversy. Um so, if you're not aware, 63 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: Billy Eichner's first mainstream rom com starring a gay man 64 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: who felches or whatever the funk it is, came out 65 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: this weekend. It's about a queer podcaster, triggering. It's about 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: a gay podcaster who is also a history buff and 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: is on the board of directors for New York City's 68 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: first l g B, t Q plus museum, who meets 69 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: a man who is very much the type of gay 70 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: that he really has no time for, which is like 71 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: Chelsea Hell's kitchen, Jim bro And yet somehow they managed 72 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: to fall in love. Yes, Yes, And that really is 73 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 1: kind of the whole movie, Like it's that simple. It's 74 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: a rom com. You and I had similar takes about 75 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,039 Speaker 1: the movie, but a different overall experience, like when you 76 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: walked out, Like, how did you feel about it? Yeah? 77 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean I just care about it less than I 78 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: think you do. Um okay, And interesting framing of that. Well, No, 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: I I guess it's it's more that I would agree 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: with that I'm able to just kind of simplify the 81 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: way that I feel about it, which is I think 82 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: it's very flawed in terms of um, the way it's 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 1: trying to overrepresent queer people as a community. That being said, 84 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: I do think it's a pretty good romantic comedy and 85 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: I enjoyed watching it. And if I was, you know, 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: at my mom's house in Florida and it came on 87 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: a HBO, I would totally watch it again, which I'm 88 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: not gonna lie. I'm shook by, but I completely respect. 89 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: And I walked out of it feeling like I didn't 90 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: really like it that much. I didn't hate hate it 91 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: by any means. You were you were fired up. On 92 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: the ride home. I was okay, okay, I'll be real. 93 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: I was mad, you were mad. I was mad. We 94 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: were driving on and you were angry, but I thought 95 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: we were going to hit someone. But I'm taking accountability 96 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: for the fact that I'm not angry about what the 97 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: movie offers. The movie is a perfectly fine movie that 98 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: belongs in an echelon of bro comedies like forty year 99 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: Old Version and Knocked Up or whatever these other movies. 100 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: And I think I want to clarify, I think we 101 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit this weekend. When you 102 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: say bro comedy, like we're talking about this, Judd Apatow 103 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: asked mainstream comedy from the male perspective, Anchorman, super Bad, 104 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: like Step Brothers. We have had some of these types 105 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: of films from the perspective of women and so, and 106 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: that's why I'm trying to like tone back my anger, 107 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: because my angers around like the sentiments surrounding the film, 108 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: how the film has been presented to us from a 109 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: press perspective, but like just on the film level in 110 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: and of itself, like the movie's fine and and I 111 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: flaud but fine, and like I'm just not the target 112 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: demographic for a bro comedy. Like all of those movies 113 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: I listed are like my least favorite movies ever. And 114 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm not. I'm not They're not for me, 115 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: and that's not a bad thing. I'm not saying that 116 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: they shouldn't exist. You know, Um, I do think you 117 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: would like Knocked Up. I Knocked Up is fun. Yeah, Okay, 118 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: I've never seen it. I've never seen it. I don't know. 119 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: I should also say, like, I love Billy's comedic stylings. 120 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: The jokes in this movie are really really good. Not all, 121 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: but a lot of them are really good jokes. No, 122 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: there's um, I'm still giggling about one that references the 123 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: Greatest Showman and if you know, you know, Yeah, I 124 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: loved Billy Eichner's Difficult People. I want it back. I 125 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: felt like it was great, which is shocking to me 126 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: because a lot of these jokes are like quintessential Billy 127 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: in the Bros. Movie. Um, but I don't like that show. 128 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: I don't like the woman who plays his friend. I 129 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: find her unwatchable. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot. And even 130 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: though I love Difficult People, the things that make it 131 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: difficult to watch is that these characters are really really miserable. 132 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: And I felt that way kind of watching Bros. As well, Like, 133 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: it was hard for me to really appreciate sometimes the 134 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: movie as a whole, because every single character is so 135 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: miserable and like really like hates other members of the 136 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: community and hates everyone around them. And I was like 137 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: looking for reprieve from that. And there was a lot 138 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: of salient critique about like gay men in general, Like 139 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: this movie talks a lot and says a lot of 140 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: very accurate things about what it means to not be 141 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: able to communicate your emotions properly to a partner. How 142 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: hook up culture or polyamory really convolutes um romantic relationships 143 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: and comes out of that really good humor. And it 144 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: also exploits how even though you know, polyamory or open 145 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: relationships or hook up culture or whatever are things that 146 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: are liberatory and freeing and define us as queer people, 147 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: they also complicate our relationships when we don't have the 148 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: fluency to navigate them, which most men don't do not 149 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But like, part of the 150 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: reason this movie doesn't hit as hard is because it's 151 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: coming out like five to ten years too late, you 152 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: know what I mean. I'm sure that a movie like 153 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: this takes so much longer to make than any other 154 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: movie because it's a gay movie. Like, I get that, 155 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: and that's not the movie's fault, but it would have 156 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: been a lot easier to watch ten years ago. I 157 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: would have a lot less to say about it. Yeah, 158 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: but I think ten years ago they wouldn't even have 159 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: attempted to try to make it about queerness outside of 160 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: the gay mail experience, which maybe would have been ultimately better, 161 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of what this movie gets 162 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: wrong is in trying to make it a statement about 163 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 1: queer community and queer history and A big plot line 164 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: in this film is that Billy is a director of 165 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: this lgbt Q plus history museum that opens and we're 166 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: told again and again how historic and important it is, 167 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: and it's that's clearly coded also his language about the 168 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: movie we're watching, which in no way is historic, Like 169 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's a good movie, but 170 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: I don't think it's historic or groundbreaking or anything. And 171 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: I think if they had just focused on the parts 172 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: of it that worked, which we're you know, being a 173 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: rom com, that would have been so much better than 174 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: trying to shoe horn in all of this stuff about 175 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: representation and community and queer history. And I mean, ultimately, 176 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: I think it would have just been better if Billy's 177 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: character had been a dentist. Yeah yeah, I mean like 178 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 1: a firefighter or like I have like an Etsy store 179 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: or something. No fire fighter at theaster would have been great. 180 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: I would have bought that. That's that is actually such 181 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: a good point, Like this character is kind of like 182 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: an Eric Servinis, kind of like passionate, right, like loves 183 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: like the legacy of like queer history and thinks it's 184 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: so important. Like I didn't buy that from Billy at all. 185 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: Because of the way the character acted for the rest 186 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: of the movie when he wasn't a gay podcaster, And 187 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: I was like, it's just it just was disingenuous and 188 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: to your point, like the moments where the movie tries 189 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: to make jokes or make the movie about because it 190 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: does about queer and trans people at writ large, like 191 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: the LGBTQ community writ large, are the least successful parts 192 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: of the movie. Like I mean, just to like exemple fight, 193 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: like this movie talks about Marsha P. Johnson throwing the 194 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: fucking first brick at stone Wall like at least three times. Seriously, 195 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 1: it was just it was very like, um, I know 196 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: that the people that go and see this movie, they 197 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: might not have the queer one oh one on the history. 198 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: So I would have forgiven it if it didn't come 199 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: back so many times, and also if it just did 200 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: income fromability. It's just like I didn't feel like the 201 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: movie was at any point really trying to represent anything 202 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: other than gay men. And I would have very much 203 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: so appreciated a movie that was just about gay men. Sure. 204 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:26,079 Speaker 1: I would have also, especially in terms of how it 205 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: was marketed and how people are talking about it, because 206 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: what I really don't appreciate is this conversation that's that's 207 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: happening not just through Billy and the press tour of 208 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: this movie, but even people that I see on TikTok 209 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: saying it's our responsibility as queer people to go see 210 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: this film so that it sends a message to Hollywood 211 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: that they should make more gay movies and that if 212 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: this film flops, that's it. That's it for queer media. 213 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: There's never gonna be another queer film made again. And 214 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: I just don't buy into that argument. I think, like, 215 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: make a better movie. Yeah, And as as like that 216 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 1: sentiment is, I understand reparative to like years and years 217 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: of the ways gay keepers like repress the movement of 218 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: like queer stories, but like it's an asinine take. Like 219 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 1: if you think that we are all contractually obligated to 220 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: consume all of like the gay culture that exists out there, 221 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: it's like you have like a lot of Adam Lambert 222 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: like albums to listen to, you know what I mean? 223 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: Like you like all y'all like are trying to pretend 224 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: like you have this like broad fluency and have seen 225 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,239 Speaker 1: everything gay that has ever come out, Like I sincerely 226 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: doubt that Billy Eichner has seen I don't know, the 227 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: handmade in or like other amazing like queer and trans 228 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: films that looks like such a random like kind of 229 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: romance that I'm thinking of like a guest maybe more 230 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: of an erotic thriller. I doubt he's even seen Portrait 231 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: of a Lady on Fire. But anyways, my point really 232 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: is that, like it is a really righteous and unhelpful 233 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: thing to do to say that if you don't see 234 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: this movie, your homophoone. Righteousness is really the right word 235 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: for it, because that is you know, his he needs 236 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: to just get off Twitter because his thread the other 237 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: day about how this movie flopped because straight people didn't 238 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: show up for it and because people are homophobic, which like, 239 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: of course that's true, but he needs to step away. 240 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: I know he's trying to sell this movie. But what 241 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: has served Billy so well in his career, which is 242 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: that he'll say anything to anyone, is really not working 243 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 1: right now. No, it's not. And like, okay, I actually 244 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: do think straight people should see this movie, Like I 245 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: agree with that. Um, it's just yeah, to your point, 246 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: like this whole like the movie failed because of X, 247 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: Y and Z it's like, just take accountability for your movie, man. 248 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: And it's not like there's not a market for gay 249 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: love stories for straight people. Like a lot of six 250 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: hetero women consume content about gay men, like I read 251 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: fan fiction. I know they do. Um, there's a reason 252 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: why fucking Red, White and Royal Blue it's as popular 253 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: as it is, or the Song of Achilles or whatever. 254 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: Like people are consuming gay love stories. They're just like 255 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: not really consuming this one. And I I really I 256 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: feel the pain of like what it means to make 257 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: anything for a queer audience. Right to like to sign 258 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: up and say I'm going to make something for historically 259 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: marginalized audience is setting yourself up, in part for failure, 260 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: because you're going to make a lot of people mad, 261 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: because the people that see themselves represented are going to 262 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: feel that you're not doing it accurately, and the people 263 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: that don't see themselves represented are going to feel erased. 264 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: And that is the paradox of representation and why it 265 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: will always fail and why we just need to as 266 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: a whole get away from representational thinking rit large, because 267 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: that is why the movie didn't succeed. And like we're 268 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: trying to like you, you and I like really try 269 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: to like separate this movie from its press rollout, right, 270 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: but like it actually could not be separated because Billy 271 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: and the team were so insistent they didn't want us 272 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: to separate. And every part of this rollout and the 273 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: film itself is in conversation with each other. And I 274 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: think it should be able to stand on its own 275 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: and and for me, like that's the thing is Ultimately 276 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: for me, I did still enjoy it. I can, I 277 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: can be critical of it and think all these things, 278 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: and I still think it's like a pretty good movie. 279 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: I still enjoyed it exactly the same way. I can 280 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: say that like they were hysterical jokes and that a 281 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: lot of the casting was amazing. Guy Brandam phenomenal. I 282 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: also think, like outside of the movie, Guy Brandam is 283 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: like a perfect and incisive voice around like representation and 284 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: all these different things. Bowen was so good and it 285 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: was some of the best parts of the movie. Debra Messing, 286 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, amazing Christian Chaw the lolliest cameo is 287 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: so funny. Um. But to like get back to the movie, 288 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: there are several scenes in like boardrooms where this the 289 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: board of lg bd Q museum is like present, right, 290 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: and of course it's like a lesbian, a white trans girl, 291 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: a black trans girl, a non binary person, and like 292 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: a gay man. It's like this perfect panel of like 293 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: you know, LGBTQ board members or whatever. And the lesbian 294 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: in these scenes is just like this loud, cantankerous woman 295 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of jokes about her like 296 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: physical strength, and like, look, you and I we love 297 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: jokes at the expense of like any member of the 298 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: queer community, right, Like it's okay, it's okay, Like we're 299 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: it's okay to make jokes about this. We've seen this 300 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: joke from Billy Eigner before, you know what I mean, 301 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: or if not from Billy, Like we've seen this joke. 302 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Like there was no invention in the jokes that it 303 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: was making about other marginalized people. And I feel like 304 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: when you do that, you're kind of punching down. And 305 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: there's also like there's this other moment that I think 306 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,239 Speaker 1: encapsulates like a lot of the kind of thematic problem 307 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: of the movie and this thing we keep talking about 308 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: about who it's centering the gay man in the story, 309 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: and then who it's trying to to include and there's 310 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: this moment where one of the trans people is like, 311 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm trying to hold space for you, like makes it. 312 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: There's this joke about like holding space that's like kind 313 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: of funny, but ultimately they don't really get where Billy 314 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: is coming from about something. And he says this remark 315 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: coming hot off the disappointment of this kind of mini 316 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: breakup he's going through with his boyfriend. He's saying, Oh, 317 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: so I'm too queer for my boyfriend and I'm not 318 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: queer enough for you, And like that was just so 319 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: like pick to me, Like I feel like it's told 320 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: on Billy in a way that I don't think he intended, 321 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: because it paints a picture of the plights of gay men, 322 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: but then for some reason like puts it in opposition 323 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: to like black trans people or whatever. I was just like, like, 324 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: what are you trying to say, Like the movie is 325 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: about the plights of gay men, Let it just be 326 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: that like when you try and victimize yourself and say, oh, 327 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: this other part of the community doesn't get me or whatever. 328 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: I was just like, no, girl, you're just like privileged 329 00:17:57,800 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: and you don't have any other trans friends or let's 330 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: me and friends, you know, what I mean, Like that's 331 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: kind of what it was giving at times, and to 332 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: your point, like just wish that it had stayed on 333 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: the lens of gay men, because it was it made 334 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: really great critiques about game male relationships and the toxicity 335 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: that comes with it. Yeah, you know, you and I 336 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: are people who also are storytellers, Like I never tried 337 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: to write something that's going to speak to the entirety 338 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: of the queer experience. I try to, you know, create 339 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: things that are about my experience because that's what I understand. Um, 340 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: And I just think this would have been a much 341 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: more successful movie if Billy wrote just kind of a 342 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: simpler gay rom com. Yeah. I wonder honestly if the 343 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: movie was at one point only about men and at 344 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: some point somebody was like, well, we got to represent 345 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: all these other people, and that's why so much of 346 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: this was like wedged in like the homages of like 347 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 1: James Baldwin and Marsha P. Johnson or whatever. Like I 348 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,479 Speaker 1: was like, what's going on, Like what don't we want? Well? 349 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: I also wonder if that's like almost a way to 350 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: kind of incentivize you know, queer people to see this film, 351 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: or if it was something that Billy felt he owed 352 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: to queer people too. If he was making this big 353 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: Hollywood movie, he had to you know, torn this in 354 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: in a way that felt very you know, disingenuous and 355 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: just like kind of chick like checking off representation, you know, 356 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: points of rather than telling those stories, because like, if 357 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: you wanted to tell a diversity of queer stories in 358 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: this film, then those people should have written it. Yeah, 359 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: not to mention when there was this scene in like 360 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: the background of like one of the Queer History Museum 361 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: exhibits where there's all these like portraits of like queer 362 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: icons or whatever, and then there's a picture of Lori Lightfoot. 363 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: Did you see that picture of It? Was so like 364 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: I felt insane watching it um And I also honestly 365 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: felt crazy because the romantic lead is like so toxic 366 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: and so like emotionally stunted. I was like the whole 367 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: engine of the movie was like lost on me. Like 368 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: I was like, why would you keep pursue? Like what 369 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: are the redeeming qualities of either of these characters? But 370 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: that was the part to me that was the most realistic, 371 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: because it is realistic. Yeah, I mean they're not gonna last, Like, 372 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: let's say that to break up six months after this 373 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: movie ends. Well, we did our duty. We saw bros. 374 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: We talked about it, clocking out, flocking out. Have you 375 00:20:51,760 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: ever cast a spell? I have, yes, on multiple occasions. Um. 376 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 1: What kind of spells? Never a love spell, because, as 377 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: we've talked about on the pod before, those are non consensual. Um. 378 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: But I have cast instead? You've cursed people to die? Yes, yes, 379 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: spells of vengeance, abundance, fortitude. What about you? I have 380 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: cast many, many spells. Um. Literally, no one who listens 381 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: to this podcast will be a surprised to learn that. 382 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: As an adolescent, I fancied myself a bit of a witch. 383 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: I still consider myself a witch. But when I was 384 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: a teenager, this was in the time when WICCA and 385 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: sort of New Age spirituality was having a real moment. 386 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 1: As you could see in any Borders bookstore if you 387 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: went to the New Age section, there would be books 388 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: like to Write a Silver brun Stick by Silver Raven 389 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: Wolf Um that would describe how you, you know, set 390 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: up an altar and called to the corners and cast 391 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: a circle. And honey, I was doing all of the 392 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 1: above in my childhood bedroom. I was casting spells. I 393 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: was trying to move things with my mind. I was 394 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: making lotions and potions and hungeans and oils, and you 395 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: in that era of your life really were like a 396 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: trenifestation of the Satanic panic of the late eighties and 397 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 1: early night and nothing about it was Satanic. It was 398 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: all it was all, it was all Goddess Vibe. I 399 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: was saying to the Goddess Hondy, everything about witchcraft is 400 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 1: entwined with the devil. But also, satanic panic is more eighties. Yeah, 401 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: it is more eighties. But and I'm not that old, okay, 402 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: but we were talking. We're talking about early two thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, 403 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: but I think what I'm trying to say is that, um, 404 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: in the nineties, there's still so much, as you do, 405 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: of satanic panic bleeding into the culture wars that made 406 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: everyone scared of the girl that would check out the 407 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: taro deck at Borders bookstore. I guess. But I feel 408 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: almost like the acceptance of that kind of spirituality that 409 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: happened in the mid to late nineties was making it 410 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 1: was maybe like making up for it, But no, I 411 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: think it predates J. K. Rolling a little bit, because yeah, 412 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: we had well to get into it. I think the 413 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: Craft dates JK. Rolling for sure. Late nineties, we've like 414 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: we've had, we've had let the Satanic panic behind, and 415 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: now a gentler, more empowered idea of people who flirt 416 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 1: with the invisible. It now enters pop culture in a 417 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: way where those people are the heroes of the stories 418 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: rather than exactly. And I love that, you know, since 419 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: this moment that we've pointed toward in the kind of 420 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: like nineties, that um, instead of the although they were 421 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: the villains in the Craft except for one of them, sure, sure, sure, 422 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: but I love that. Um. And and that's the same 423 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: case with like hocus focus and stuff like that. But 424 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: I love that, Um, the pendulum never swung back right 425 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: like there was. There hasn't been necessarily another like Witchcraft 426 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: panic to the scale of like the Satanic panic, because 427 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: which is in kind of the cultural forces that we're 428 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: talking about today, movies, TV shows, books, whatever, have only 429 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: accrued in like cultural value and like meaning. Like I 430 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: think that which is are as a feminist idea, something 431 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: that is even more popular now than it was in 432 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: the Charm. In the Charm to Harry totally well, Satanic 433 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: panic was very culty and anyone who has watched the 434 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: most recent season of Stranger Things knows that that is 435 00:24:54,600 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: how it begun in the eighties was people um being 436 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: scared of people who played things like dungeons and dragons 437 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: and thinking that they were satanic cults and killed people, 438 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: which is also a plot line in Riverdale, it must 439 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 1: be said. But their version of the game is called 440 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: like Gorgon's and Gargoyles or something like that. And so 441 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: then the upswing in which media and culture in the 442 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: nineties I do think was very much about the self. 443 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: It was very internalized, it was very feminist, it was 444 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: and it was also very like tied up in ideas 445 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 1: of sisterhood with things like charmed on the Craft, practical 446 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: magic um and then skewing over into you know, broader 447 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: fantasy with Harry Potter. Can you like you know Harry 448 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 1: Potter aside, like, what were the first witchcraft cultural objects 449 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: that you latched onto? Oh? Well, I mean the inciting 450 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: incident is, of course the Wicked Witch of the West 451 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: and the Wizard of Oz. She was the moment, She's 452 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: the blueprint, she's the green print, she's alpha but herself. 453 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: That was the first time I saw which on screen 454 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: and We've talked about Wizard of Oz before and how 455 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: much I loved it. And even though I loved Dorothy 456 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: and wanted to be Dorothy, the Wicked Witch of the 457 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: West was the character who I was the most obsessed with, 458 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: and she sparked what has been a lifelong obsession with 459 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: witches for me. She was the first, and then I 460 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: think after that, I just any time there was a 461 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: witch in a movie like Um madmana Mim in The 462 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: Sword in the Stone hocus Pocus, you know, also came 463 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: out in the early to mid nineties, if there was 464 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: a character who was a witch, I was obsessed, even 465 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: when she was the villain. And so then once I 466 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: was old enough to start reading on my own, I 467 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: always gravitated too books with witches, and them are books 468 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: about witches, And as I got older, I was able 469 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: to find more and more of those books where the 470 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: witches were the heroes rather than the villains, or at 471 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: least they were, you know, more more complicated than that. 472 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: While we're in the villain's portion, though, can we like 473 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: have a moment for mad Madam Mim from this from 474 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: The Sword in the Stone, I forgot about her. She 475 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: is iconic and Lady Gaga should play her in the 476 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: live action version that is The Dake. She is grotesque 477 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: and I love that, but she also is sexy because 478 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: she is a shape shifter. Wait oh wait, doesn't she 479 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: become like a sexy crocodile or something. She becomes a 480 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: lot of different things, but she does become like a 481 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: hot version of her similar to Ursula, She's very trans 482 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: Ursula becomes a hot version of herself, Um the Witch, 483 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: and Um snow White in The Seven Dwarves becomes a 484 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: hot version of herself. She is also an iconic witch. Yeah. 485 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: The Maleficent, honestly, for me was my first I think 486 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: the first witch that I latched onto. I probably saw 487 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: a Wizard of Us before, but I definitely remember seeing 488 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: Maleficent and being like, that is my girl. But Maleficent 489 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: is very much a sorceress, and I think the thing 490 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: that I loved about The Wicked Witch of the West 491 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: is she is the proto typical, which she's got the broomstick, 492 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: the pointy hat, the crystal ball, she's mixing up potions 493 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: and her cauldron. You know, she was a witch, the archetypical. 494 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: That's what I was into, and I love that Since 495 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 1: that moment, we've had so many different takes and iterations 496 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: on the archetype, not excluding mad Madam mim or the 497 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: other the others that came up in that in that 498 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: Disney era, of which witches, because there are a lot 499 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: of witches and Disney movies, but they're almost always the villain, 500 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: right exactly. It's only now in sort of the post 501 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: metare contextualization of Disney that we now have empowered women 502 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: who are the heroes of their stories, like Frozen, where 503 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, else is not a witch, but she has 504 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: powers and she is you know, complicated, but she's not evil. Right. 505 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: I think the one standout from the witches of your 506 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: maybe that I'm thinking of is Kiki's Delivery Service where 507 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: she's the protagonist and not the villain. But that movie, 508 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's him Zaki, so obviously it's like 509 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: it has way more like depth than like any of 510 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: these like Disney movies or anything like that. Um have 511 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: you have you seen that movie? Ye oh my god, 512 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 1: I love love love that. Like her magic power is 513 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: a kind of metaphor for um, the muse like and 514 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: for like creativity. Like I think maybe it was an 515 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: interview or something that I watched with Hamiyazaki, but like 516 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: describing how like writer's block and like artists blocks that 517 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: come up are not unlike the way that Kiki all 518 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: of a sudden couldn't access her powers and she didn't 519 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: know why, and she's trying to make sense of it, 520 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: and all she needed was solitude and to do something 521 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't magic, to like find her magic again. I'm like, 522 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: I think that, like that's like that as a lesson 523 00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: has like she was in her folklore era. She she 524 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: was there a folklore era and honestly also not to 525 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: like jump all the way to the end, but like 526 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: um her her Wanda era too, will get there. We'll 527 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: get there, so some other I think really formative, which 528 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: is of my childhood, which is of Eastwick? Yes, have 529 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: you seen I would Love Love Love too? I've seen, Yes, 530 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 1: And I would love to watch a version of the 531 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: film um without Jack Nicholson because I think I'm disgusting. 532 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: He is disgusting, but it's still he's integral to the story. 533 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: I still could watch it without him, I really could. 534 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: It wouldn't make sense, but I would enjoy it. Okay, 535 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: we'll try to get you girls only cut Girls, we 536 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: will have at this point, we'll already have talked a 537 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: bit about hocus Pocus during our live watch of the 538 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: of hocus Pocus too upon record, we have not the 539 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,280 Speaker 1: pon record, we have not done it yet. So I 540 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: mean we can say that when hocus Pocus came out, 541 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: that had me in a guerrilla grip, you know, because 542 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: even though they were the villains, I was obsessed with them. 543 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: And I did not see hocus Pocus until my twenties. 544 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: God a friend, Yeah, yeah, and I watched it and 545 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: it was amazing. Like the musical number Sarah Jessica Parker, 546 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: Kathey and Jenie Bette Midler, like the tree out of 547 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: them is omnipotent. It's why I'm nervous. I'm nervous about 548 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: the sequel. Girl. There's no way it can be good. 549 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: There's no way it can be good. But I actually 550 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: don't think it's possible for the three of them to 551 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: have a bad performance. I think the movie can be bad, 552 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: but I don't think that the three of them will 553 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: give us a bad moment. I don't think that a 554 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: lot of money. Here's the thing. Yeah, sure, but Bette 555 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: Midler has never failed us. Kathy and Genie Midler has 556 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: never failed us. Well, Bette Midler did tweet some stupid things, 557 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: but aside from that, right, we were we actually were 558 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: we We never talked about the Bett. Well, she's not 559 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: a turf she tur turf light yeah, diet turf um, 560 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: but she's she thinks j. K. Rowling's okay on the 561 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,719 Speaker 1: performance level, though I don't think that has ever wronged us, 562 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: nor has Kathy and Jimmie. Sarah Jessica Parker maybe has, 563 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: but I don't because sometimes she doesn't know what movie 564 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: she's in, but I think she'll know what I mean. 565 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: This is Oh, she I think is the one who 566 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: will slay the most because Sarah Jessica Parker is amazing 567 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: when it comes to physical slapstick comedy. And even in 568 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 1: the trailer she was giving that, say that and also 569 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 1: like she's never credited for that. You know, as the 570 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: nineties progressed and which is started to get sexier, I 571 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: was all about that. Okay, you still have not seen 572 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,440 Speaker 1: the original the Craft. Yeah, but it's sexy. I thought 573 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: it was teen. It is teens, but they're sexy teens 574 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: of course, sexy teens played by full adult, fully thirty 575 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: year old um. It starts for as a bulk who 576 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: it was in Return to Oz, which is also a 577 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: movie about which is and one of my favorite films 578 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: and one of your favorite portrayals of which is as 579 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: one of my favorite Yes. Um. It is about a 580 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: group of girls who are outcasts at school and find 581 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: that they are more powerful together than apart, and but 582 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: once they get power, it corrupts them and they start 583 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: doing some very bad things. The vibes are correct, the 584 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: looks are right, the soundtrack is amazing. It's a great 585 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: little teen horror films and very formative to you, as 586 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: you always say, extremely format. Would you say that it 587 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: is one of the best films ever made? No, I won't. 588 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: You wouldn't know. I thought that would be one of 589 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: the ones. No practical magic, practical now, practical magic. That 590 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: is it is in my top ten films. Yeah, okay, 591 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,959 Speaker 1: okay it one day. One day, the virgins are going 592 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,120 Speaker 1: to keep tracking your You'll be eating your words, and 593 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: then you're no longer going to be able to say, 594 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: you know what, Please start compiling a list of all 595 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: the films that I say are in my top ten, 596 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: which are pirates of the caribbeansgic return to return to 597 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Rear Rear Windows my 598 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: favorite movie of all time. But Practical Magic. That was 599 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: kind of the first thing that after I had moved 600 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: here that I forced you to watch that you had 601 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: never seen, never seen because it was Halloween. It was 602 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: like peak pandemic, so we can really do anything. We 603 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: did go to Channing's and how the Lovely Little Saw 604 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: and ritual and then we came back to your old 605 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: apartment and who and watched Practical Magic. Was the first time. 606 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,359 Speaker 1: It was the perfect Halloween and you stayed away through 607 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing somehow, well, I mean, it's very engaging 608 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: in that that the movie hinges on murdering a man. 609 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: It's also an hour and a half murdering uh. He's 610 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: like murdering a domestic abuser abuser. And then also and 611 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: and it's also about restorative justice outside of the carceral system, 612 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: because the cop comes in to try to catch them 613 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: and then ends the movie with him being like, Oh, 614 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: I don't really care that you killed him. He got 615 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:28,959 Speaker 1: what he deserved. It's also about storative justice is really 616 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, about the death penalty. 617 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: And how we should be doing that instead. It's also 618 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,360 Speaker 1: a story about ancestral shealing, sheiling, ancestral pain shealing, feeling 619 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: like healing but with what with women? She like ancestral shealing. 620 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: It also has an incredible soundtrack that slaps to this day. 621 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: Stevie Nicks does multiple songs covers of old class What 622 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: is the thing? Can you explain to me, like how 623 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 1: it all started with Stevine Knicks being a witch? Like 624 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: how people just assumed or like made associations with Steven 625 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 1: Knicks that she was in witchcraft of some kind. I 626 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,959 Speaker 1: think it's just kind of her general vibe. It wasn't 627 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: anything explicit, and I think especially once she started her 628 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: solo career, it just kind of became a thing. It's 629 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: just one of those things I think, Okay, wait, this 630 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: is I'm realizing something right now. So, first of all, 631 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: Stevin Knicks has gone on the record to confirm that 632 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,479 Speaker 1: she is in fact not a witch and that this 633 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: was a rumor that started circulating in her Fleetwood mac 634 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: era of Rhiannon that I think was particularly it's a 635 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: song about a witch. Yeah, yeah, so people started to 636 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: assume that she was a witch, and I'm also just 637 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: realizing upon looking at So when I type this out 638 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: in Google and saw the photo, I was like, oh, 639 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: she looks like Olivia Newton John. And now I'm remembering, 640 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: and I've said this on the pod before that my 641 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 1: mom once told me that Olivia Newton John, alright, he 642 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: was a witch, and had I think my mom Olivia 643 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: and John was Stevie Nicks. Yes, they look kind of 644 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: the same, but Olivia r I p you were not 645 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: a witch. Um. So I was very disappointed because I 646 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: was obsessed with practical magic. My mom took me to 647 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: see the movie and I lost my mind, Like it 648 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: reordered my brain and like changed me on a chemical level, 649 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: because I think up until that point, my idea of 650 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: which is had been the wicked witch of the West. 651 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,319 Speaker 1: And now I saw, wait, you can be young and 652 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: hot and have all that hair and be a witch 653 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: and have sex and have sex and be and blow 654 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: on candles to light them, and your aunt is Stockard Channing. 655 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: And so I wanted to dive as deep as I 656 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: could into the practical magic sphere and practical magic. The 657 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: film is based on a book by Alice Hoffman. So 658 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 1: I remember checking the book out from the library, because 659 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 1: I used to spend most of my time in the 660 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: library at that point, and the book was not as 661 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: good as the movie. It's the book is much more 662 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: sort of magical realism, and like the magic is very 663 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,840 Speaker 1: just kind of suggested. It's like kind of exists on 664 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: the outside of things. So that was very disappointing. In 665 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: years since, though, Alice Hoffman has written both a prequel 666 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: to Practical Magic and a sequel to it, and then 667 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: a fourth and final book. They're amazing. The prequel, especially, 668 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: which is called The Rules of Magic, is my favorite 669 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: of the four of them. It takes place in nineteen 670 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: seventies New York City and it's about the ants from 671 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: the movie and their gay brother growing up as witches. 672 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: And it was in development as a series for HBO 673 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,960 Speaker 1: Max I think by Melissa Rosenberg, who's the screenwriter of 674 00:38:54,960 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: the Twilight movies. But nothing has really ever happened with that, 675 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 1: so it would be so good. You should write for that. 676 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: I should write for that. It might be one of 677 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: those things that's kind of stuck in development, but it's 678 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: so good and if you need a spooky Halloween read, 679 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: I really recommend that. I love the Nicole Kidman's iteration 680 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: of the witch archetype, which we discussed in the Nicole 681 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: Kidman episode, is dark, tortured, gorgeous woman. I love that 682 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: she like elevated the which archetype. It's like, actually, which is, 683 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 1: are not just these like kind of flat villains that 684 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: patently believe that Satan is their master and that they're 685 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: here to terrorize humanity like some which is actually have 686 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: shitty boyfriends, and some witches have beautiful, made well outfit. 687 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: Actually the fit isn't made well. The fit is giving 688 00:39:47,840 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: free people. You know, what I love is that, you know, 689 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: culture obviously always swings back around. And while we had 690 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: in the you know, early and mid aughts that kind 691 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: of witchcraft in things like practical magic and charmed and stuff, 692 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: now we have gotten to the point where we're now 693 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: swinging back to the pendulum. And I think what exemplifies 694 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 1: that most of all is the movie The Vich Taylor. 695 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: I was wondering what you were going to say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 696 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: So the for anyone who doesn't know, I really feel 697 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: like if you listen to this podcast you can probably 698 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: see the witch um is basically what I love about 699 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: it is it's the idea that what if the thing 700 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: that all of these fucking pilgrims were scared about, you know, 701 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: the thing that the thing that the Salem witch Trials 702 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: were predicated on, which is that there was this witch 703 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: who sold her soul to the devil who's going to 704 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: come steal your children and eat them and like curse 705 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 1: your land blah blah blah. What if that actually happened. 706 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,359 Speaker 1: And the way that the witch was stylized was there 707 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 1: was the Witch a New England folk tale and so 708 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: it's like this very literal version of that idea, and 709 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 1: it's really bringing us back to the root of how 710 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: the witch has always been seen in culture. And I 711 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: really liked that. It's like almost the most literal telling 712 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: of which story you know, of these people being plagued 713 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: by a witch who steals their children and curses their crops, 714 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,320 Speaker 1: and then it ends with this young girl signing herself 715 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: over to the devil because she wants to live deliciously 716 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,720 Speaker 1: um and you know, floating up in the air into 717 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: like an ecstatic origy of witches, which is like very 718 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: reminiscent of that famous painting of all the Women floating. Ye, 719 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 1: it's a it's one of the most beautiful filmic finalees 720 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: and I think is honestly, it shows off what does best. 721 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: It's probably my favorite movie. Um I. Honestly, since now 722 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: that you've mentioned living Deliciously, um I, I think that 723 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,800 Speaker 1: Um the Bitch doesn't have like necessarily a specific take 724 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,399 Speaker 1: right on UM. The Salem Which Trials are the things 725 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,560 Speaker 1: that happened after it, right It's it's a very like folkloric, 726 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: true to the text portrayal of a witch that feels 727 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,600 Speaker 1: like somehow exactly in the period, but also hyper contemporary, 728 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: like she feels real as fuck. Like that is something 729 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,799 Speaker 1: that I love about this movie. But it should be 730 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 1: said that like the Salem Witch Trials were literally just 731 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: misogyny often like racialize misogyny right with like a Scooby 732 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: Doo mask on it. Like they literally thought that this 733 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 1: was richcraft and actually they just like hated when I 734 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: know I was. I was also really into the Salem 735 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: Which trials as a concept when I was a kid. 736 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: Um I went to Salem once and I did one 737 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: year during October. I was in Salem just like the 738 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,200 Speaker 1: real Houseves of New York. Yes, just like that, just 739 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: like UM and I loved The Crucible. It was one 740 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 1: of my favorite plays. I loved the film version with 741 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: Daniel day Lewis and Winona Writer. Yeah, they were really good. 742 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 1: Winona's incredible in that movie. I would love to see 743 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 1: a stage a stage production of it. Have you never 744 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: seen one? I think I maybe have, but I don't 745 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: remember if our high school did it or if I 746 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: saw it somewhere. But something that I like about The Crucible, 747 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: and It's like contribution to the discourse, is that cultural 748 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: mania had like fatal consequences, you know what I mean, 749 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: like zooming out of that. Arthur Miller was trying to 750 00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: say something about McCarthy is um. Yes, oh yeah, literally, 751 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: McCarthy is m and like how we as a culture 752 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,720 Speaker 1: to this day still create mania and um dangerous group 753 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,439 Speaker 1: think that has fatal consequences. Yes, well, I do think 754 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: it's important for us to talk about the place of 755 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 1: the witch in culture, as she or they have existed 756 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: through the entirety of history. You know, the which is 757 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 1: the other the witch is unbridled powerful femininity that must 758 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 1: be hung or burned to the state or chained. Um. 759 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: You know, the which is our fear of someone who 760 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: society has decided should not have power, having too much 761 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: of it, right, And I think that honestly, I don't 762 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,360 Speaker 1: know where she falls into the chronology of like a 763 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,759 Speaker 1: history of witches, but like I always think of like Lilith, right, 764 00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: and like her place in this can in of women 765 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: with mystical powers that were like scorned by society, um 766 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 1: for the virgins that don't know our friend Channing has 767 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 1: like given like given me a lot of context and 768 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: like Lilith, and like her place in the Talmud, and 769 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:19,120 Speaker 1: like in Jewish folklore, and how in some iterations of 770 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,480 Speaker 1: the text she's like the o G Eve of Adam 771 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: and Eve and Adam's first wife. Yes, yeah, yeah, in 772 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: some like people have different like ways of interpreting, like 773 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: where Lilith comes from or whatever, but yeah, if she 774 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: is adams first wife. Adam was basically like, you have 775 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: to lie under me, you have to subject yourself to me, 776 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: and Lilith literally was like no, because wasn't the issue 777 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: that Lilith was created alongside Adam so saw herself as 778 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: his equal, and then once she was cast out of Eden. 779 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: That's why Eve was created from Adam's ribs, so she 780 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: would always be subjugated to him. Well, I think it's 781 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,360 Speaker 1: somewhere in the Babylonian Talmud. It's like the rib is 782 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: not present. They are supposed to be eating well. And 783 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: Adam was like, nowhere not equal, and Lilith was like, yes, 784 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: we are. And she refused, basically to participate in this union, 785 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,280 Speaker 1: and she left Eden speaking of living deliciously. She left 786 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:20,040 Speaker 1: Eden because she knew that pleasure was more powerful than 787 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: perfection and the promise of Eden. Sorry, this is very philosophical, 788 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: but I have like a lot of thoughts on Lilith 789 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 1: slash slash like have like a little tatoo. Oh my god, 790 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: I want like a real that's like so good. I 791 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: want like an actual more explicitly Lilith tattoo like yours 792 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,239 Speaker 1: m Rose has. What is this that the symbols um 793 00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: but um. The promise of Eden was perfection right like 794 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,239 Speaker 1: God was like, if you stay here, we all get 795 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: to be perfect forever because there's no sin here. And 796 00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,240 Speaker 1: Lilith was like, wait, hold up, sin actually makes life 797 00:46:54,000 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: imperfect and therefore fun interesting, like compelling, emotional, like leisure, pain, chaos, 798 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,720 Speaker 1: magic are the things that it's not like the taste 799 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 1: of butter. What's that like to wear a part address 800 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,960 Speaker 1: would like to live deliciously and those are the things 801 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,120 Speaker 1: that make life worth living. And and Lilith is also 802 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: thought of as the mother of demons, that she left 803 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: Eden and became the yes and so and and in 804 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: some tellings the first witch. Yes, she is a Hecata 805 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: like figure that became a culturally demonized, like portrayal of 806 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:36,080 Speaker 1: like evil women basically because the witch in many different 807 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,680 Speaker 1: cultures and histories like is a figure who's who's kind 808 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: of purpose and allegiances, and like good or evil or 809 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 1: neutrality is always shifting based on who was telling the 810 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: story and what the agenda is, and and usually if 811 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: that story is being told by a man, because if 812 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 1: it is being told man or being told by men 813 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: by the patriarchy, then the witch is you know, evil 814 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 1: and corrupting and an agent of Satan. If it's being 815 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: told by women, you know, there there have been witches 816 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 1: in many cultures who are the healers and the midwives 817 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,360 Speaker 1: and you know, the soothsayers and the wise women of 818 00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:17,920 Speaker 1: the village. And it's just very you know, interesting, how 819 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: we can all agree that this type of woman, specifically 820 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: um has always existed and there are so many different 821 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 1: variations like just today and all the different pieces of 822 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,120 Speaker 1: media we're talking about, there's so many different ideas of 823 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:39,560 Speaker 1: what a witch has been and could be. And that's 824 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: what I think is so fascinating about the idea of 825 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: a witch is that she can be anything because she 826 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: has been everything um and the possibilities are endless. That's 827 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: why I think people return to witches in storytelling over 828 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:58,160 Speaker 1: and over and over again. Yeah, and I I it's 829 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:02,000 Speaker 1: also and also because a witch is someone who asserts 830 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 1: their will upon the world, who looks at the world 831 00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,640 Speaker 1: and says, no, this will change. Witchcraft is manifesting. We're 832 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,680 Speaker 1: tran infesting your will upon the world and changing it 833 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: through magic. And I think it's very interesting that like 834 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:19,320 Speaker 1: right now and maybe for the last like five plus years, 835 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: there has been at least in America, like a a 836 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: greater acceptance or popularity of astrology, mysticism, you know, tera 837 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: things that have been culturally stigmatized in the kind of 838 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,960 Speaker 1: like eighties and nineties that now have pre eminence because 839 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: culturally we are just like moving further and further away 840 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 1: from Christianity and moving further and further away from organized 841 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: religion as we've like discovered that it is responsible for 842 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: pretty much like all of the oppressive forces on the 843 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,839 Speaker 1: planet since the dawn of time for the most part. 844 00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,279 Speaker 1: And I feel like, as like witchcraft, or like mysticism, 845 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,759 Speaker 1: or like whatever our way into the other worldly and 846 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,919 Speaker 1: the occult is. Now that we don't have God, it's 847 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: like we're trying to find other things that to make 848 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: our lives make sense, and that witchcraft is something that 849 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,799 Speaker 1: is inherently empowering and subcultural and therefore has even more 850 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 1: cultural value now. Yeah, well, I think it's very telling 851 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: that the time in my life that I found myself 852 00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,440 Speaker 1: most identifying as a witch, the time in my life 853 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,360 Speaker 1: when I felt the most spiritual and was kind of 854 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: the most able to do kind of a you know, 855 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,120 Speaker 1: like let myself do things like be part of ritual 856 00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,920 Speaker 1: and um, you know, have an alter at home, were 857 00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,120 Speaker 1: the times of my life when I was most deeply 858 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,200 Speaker 1: invested in community. Um, and you did it before it 859 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,160 Speaker 1: was popular, before it was like popular in the way 860 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,600 Speaker 1: it is now around. Yeah, but I think there is 861 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: something to be said about the times of my life 862 00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,959 Speaker 1: when I was deeply invested in queer community and queer 863 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,760 Speaker 1: community spaces and spaces that we're aiming to be sort 864 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:08,759 Speaker 1: of transcendent and like um, you know, ecstatic and sort 865 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,719 Speaker 1: of the truest sense of the word. Those were the 866 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:17,839 Speaker 1: places where magic felt kind of possible and also where 867 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: trying to make magic was actually happening. Is because in 868 00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,719 Speaker 1: those like liminal spaces, it does feel kind of like 869 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: something that's achievable, Like when you're in a room full 870 00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,440 Speaker 1: of queer people in this like sort of sacred space 871 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:36,720 Speaker 1: that you have created against all odds, it does feel 872 00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: like you can maybe achieve something like alchemical or transformative 873 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:47,279 Speaker 1: or even divine. And you know, nowadays I don't have 874 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 1: as much time for that, but it is time consuming, 875 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,279 Speaker 1: It is time consuming. But like I have, you know, 876 00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,960 Speaker 1: I have been part of large scale rituals, both in 877 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: more like nightlife centric spaces and then also in fairy 878 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: spaces and sort of communal spaces out in nature, and 879 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: there is you know, I do think there's something to 880 00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,800 Speaker 1: be said for like mass illusion and mass hysteria, but 881 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: I have I have definitely felt real magic. Yeah, I 882 00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,719 Speaker 1: have absolutely felt it. But I think that honestly, like 883 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 1: I wish Channey was here, um, but like I do 884 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: think that our friend, n our friend Channing Nicholas. I 885 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,840 Speaker 1: think that the popularity of like work like hers is 886 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: something that even she would like talk about a nuance, 887 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,319 Speaker 1: like saying that like both can exist, right, Like we 888 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,880 Speaker 1: have these spaces of mysticism that are empowering and important 889 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,880 Speaker 1: for personal growth, or like the actual cultivation of magic. 890 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: And then there's also this like cult thing that's happening that, 891 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:54,480 Speaker 1: especially in the twenties, is now becoming an erasure honestly 892 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: of like practices that are ancient, indigenous, historically black things 893 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,319 Speaker 1: like that. So like when we have like sage and 894 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:08,839 Speaker 1: crystals and Breweri, like non Christian iterations of a kind 895 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,280 Speaker 1: of magical belief system. I think even something as common 896 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,879 Speaker 1: as it is now to hear someone say I didn't 897 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:19,080 Speaker 1: like their energy or or I'm not feeling the vibe 898 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,440 Speaker 1: that has really trapped, that has really worked its way 899 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,040 Speaker 1: into our vernacular way that I don't think it existed before. 900 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: And we we live in a society that I believe 901 00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: has accepted the idea that there is some sort of 902 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,400 Speaker 1: metaphysical plane we all exist on. And so when j 903 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,200 Speaker 1: Lo said get the Virgo off of my dance crew, 904 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:49,120 Speaker 1: I'm not watching. Yeah, she was partaking in the very 905 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: thing you're you're alluding to. She was speaking of dance. 906 00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,200 Speaker 1: One film that I wish that you would watch that 907 00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure you never will is Suspiria. Oh yeah, I 908 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 1: watched the first I don't know how long, but I 909 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,239 Speaker 1: watch up until the contortion. Okay, well the movies three 910 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: hours long, Jesus Christ. I So the original Suspiria, which 911 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: is the Dario or Gento film, it's like a very 912 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 1: fame to ten. It's yes, it is um not the original, 913 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: the new one. The Dario Argendo film is like a 914 00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: very psychedelic seventies horror film that is really considered a classic. 915 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,640 Speaker 1: It was remade by Luca guard Nino, who directed Call 916 00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:34,960 Speaker 1: Me by Your Name in starring Tilda Swinton and Dakota 917 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: Johnson and Mia Goth who's having a glow up a 918 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 1: moment right now. I really prefer the remake to the original. 919 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,680 Speaker 1: And I think the idea of a coven of witches 920 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,240 Speaker 1: using the cover of being a dance company is really 921 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,839 Speaker 1: interesting and it just leads to so many incredible set 922 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,640 Speaker 1: pieces of of movement as magic. And that's something like, 923 00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, going back to what I was talking about before, 924 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,960 Speaker 1: like I think some of the times of my life 925 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:09,839 Speaker 1: when I felt the most like I was part of 926 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:12,440 Speaker 1: something larger than myself and like felt a tune to 927 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,120 Speaker 1: the people around me and felt something magical was when 928 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: I was dancing. Yeah, And honestly, it reminds me a 929 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,319 Speaker 1: lot of what I think most people believed to be 930 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:25,120 Speaker 1: the best scene in midsom Are when Florence Pugh is 931 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: being like kind of pulled into that clan of women 932 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,920 Speaker 1: and having her kind of grief in her grief state 933 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,719 Speaker 1: is like reckoning with the infidelity that's going on right 934 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,120 Speaker 1: in front of her, and she starts moving and breathing 935 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,920 Speaker 1: in tandem with that crowd of women. Do you remember that? 936 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,359 Speaker 1: Like it reminds me. I think that combined with the rich, 937 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:53,240 Speaker 1: combined with Um the movie Suspiria all kind of build 938 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,280 Speaker 1: on the communal aspect that you're talking about, how the coven, 939 00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 1: the coven is actually a gorgeous metaphor of sisterhood, and 940 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:08,960 Speaker 1: how the subjugation and ostrichization of women and fems creates 941 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 1: a more equitable power that you now have. Sometimes it does, 942 00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: unless you are in American horror story um and then 943 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,040 Speaker 1: and then all it does is pit women against each 944 00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 1: other do you like that series, because I feel like 945 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:27,880 Speaker 1: I haven't. I've only watched that American Horror Story season 946 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,040 Speaker 1: from beginning to end. It's the only one I've completed. 947 00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: But people always say it's the best one. It's not 948 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,239 Speaker 1: my favorite one. I see why people think it's the 949 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,480 Speaker 1: best one, because I think it's I think it's the 950 00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,560 Speaker 1: most fun and the most campy. Um My faith is 951 00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:49,399 Speaker 1: honestly probably Hotel Gaga or maybe Murder House. I think 952 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: the best season of American Horror Story is Asylum, but 953 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,800 Speaker 1: it's not what I want to rewatch um. Coven is fun, 954 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:02,080 Speaker 1: It's just a little too silly, and I think, you 955 00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,719 Speaker 1: know the problem that every season of American Horror Story 956 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: has is that they start out so strong and then 957 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 1: halfway through the season is like, what are we gonna 958 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,280 Speaker 1: do now? And that's very much what happens with Kevin. 959 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,760 Speaker 1: And the first couple episodes of Coven are so fun. Uh. 960 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,880 Speaker 1: When Covin was airing, I was watching it at live 961 00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:24,040 Speaker 1: viewings in Brooklyn, which were so fun because this was 962 00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: like peak and when Ryan had like the most cultural 963 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,120 Speaker 1: power he has. What I don't like about Covin, I 964 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,840 Speaker 1: think is that I mean Unfortunately this is also just 965 00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 1: a Ryan Murphy thing, and that he does this amazing 966 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: thing where he creates roles for the older actresses, but 967 00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: often what he's writing in those roles is women who 968 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: are obsessed with youth and regaining youth. And that's what 969 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: I didn't love about Covin was that the whole story 970 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,200 Speaker 1: was about this woman who wants to hang onto youth 971 00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: by any means necessary, and that youth equates to power. 972 00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,160 Speaker 1: When I think the great thing about which is historically 973 00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:10,240 Speaker 1: is that which is are one of the few, you know, 974 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,520 Speaker 1: archetypes we have in culture of a powerful older woman, 975 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,800 Speaker 1: a powerful woman that has no problem being and also 976 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:21,120 Speaker 1: which is historically honor all the points of womanhood. Like 977 00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:24,080 Speaker 1: when you talk about Hecate and the Triple Goddess, It's 978 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:28,280 Speaker 1: Maiden mother Crone. It's recognizing that those three parts of 979 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 1: a woman's life are all equally important. Yeah, And like 980 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,080 Speaker 1: while we love like hot fashion, which is like we 981 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: love our Kieran and Schipkasas and like all that jazz, 982 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,120 Speaker 1: it's like actually like in the mad, mad amm of it, 983 00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:46,440 Speaker 1: all the power of a witch is that she's like, 984 00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:50,400 Speaker 1: I am as ugly as you can imagine and yet 985 00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,440 Speaker 1: that that is no detriment to like my power and 986 00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,800 Speaker 1: the power that I have over you. Right where in 987 00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,640 Speaker 1: like non magical society, the uglier you are, the less 988 00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,080 Speaker 1: power you have. But the Witch is like, you can 989 00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,560 Speaker 1: do whatever you want to me, like you can't touch me. 990 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:08,240 Speaker 1: It's not even necessarily even ugliness. It's literally just age, 991 00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,880 Speaker 1: you know, yes, right, sure, I was going to say 992 00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:12,400 Speaker 1: on the Coven of it all? So I watched it 993 00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:15,439 Speaker 1: for the first time last year, did you know that? Um, 994 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,520 Speaker 1: it's the only HS that I have finished that I 995 00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:22,680 Speaker 1: did watch a lot of Murder House, and um, I'm 996 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: really shook by how many big swings he took to 997 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:31,320 Speaker 1: like talk about black culture within like the show, but 998 00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: like it was never like built upon or like fleshed out. 999 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,040 Speaker 1: And also like he never had any black writers in 1000 00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,040 Speaker 1: his room, I don't think, or at least that's what 1001 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 1: I remember looking at when I was like watching it. 1002 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: Francis Conroy's character in Coven to me is like Ryan 1003 00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:54,080 Speaker 1: Murphietta's best right, A witch who cares, Yes, a witch 1004 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,200 Speaker 1: who cares about labels is genius, and it cares about 1005 00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:01,479 Speaker 1: labels and is a snob, like is a maybe even 1006 01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: like a classist. Like I thought that was so interesting 1007 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,120 Speaker 1: the things that he was trying to say about like racism, 1008 01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,320 Speaker 1: and how like Kathy Bates was like this kind of 1009 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 1: belligerently white supremacist person who like learned her lesson by 1010 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,600 Speaker 1: way of like Gabby Citabit. I was like, this did 1011 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: not age well at all, Like doesn't make any sense 1012 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:21,960 Speaker 1: to me. But again, it like came out at the 1013 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:26,440 Speaker 1: exact right time, probably like came out exactly before people 1014 01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: were fully canceling or like trying to call critique to 1015 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,480 Speaker 1: things like this, right, Um, but yeah, I think the 1016 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,680 Speaker 1: fact that it is a covenant like to our point, 1017 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,560 Speaker 1: like that Coven's have this kind of like cultural meaning 1018 01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 1: throughout time makes it one of Ryan Murphy's greatest contributions. 1019 01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:48,040 Speaker 1: And in and I you know, I like, um, you know, 1020 01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:53,120 Speaker 1: a solitary which story, you know, the Kikys of the world, 1021 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,480 Speaker 1: and you know, um, but I think some of my 1022 01:00:56,600 --> 01:01:00,920 Speaker 1: favorite which stories are about sisterhood in community. That's why 1023 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,200 Speaker 1: I love which is of Eastwick and practical Magic and 1024 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:09,400 Speaker 1: even the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, which you know had 1025 01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:15,200 Speaker 1: its issues. I was so excited about how it started. 1026 01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:17,880 Speaker 1: And I think it has one of the best trailers 1027 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:19,800 Speaker 1: for a TV show ever made. As I think the 1028 01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:22,120 Speaker 1: first season, well maybe not the last two episodes, but 1029 01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,200 Speaker 1: the first season was season is really good. Um, the 1030 01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,880 Speaker 1: end was not great, but I think that show was 1031 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,160 Speaker 1: most effective when it brought the witches together and you 1032 01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:34,880 Speaker 1: really felt that sense of like family and sisterhood, and 1033 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,520 Speaker 1: that writer's room was also like black and trans right 1034 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:44,440 Speaker 1: and they try to bring voodoo back to indigen eighty 1035 01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: into blackness, which I thought was cool. Like there are 1036 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,880 Speaker 1: a lot of things about the Sabrina franchise that was 1037 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: slightly reparative or trying to restore what maybe was erased 1038 01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: in the the you know, the cannon of witchcraft, and 1039 01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,920 Speaker 1: you know that's something that if you look at Harry Potter, 1040 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,000 Speaker 1: like there was never a moment in Harry Potter, despite 1041 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,800 Speaker 1: the fact that it was about a war and obviously 1042 01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: you know, being on different side of the sides of 1043 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,440 Speaker 1: the war and like fighting alongside people they're like magic 1044 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,680 Speaker 1: system was one in which it was all about individual power. 1045 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,920 Speaker 1: Was never a moment where we saw people like doing 1046 01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:21,760 Speaker 1: a spell together, And I don't know that's like maybe 1047 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:23,880 Speaker 1: just a weird aside, but I think it's like very 1048 01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:25,640 Speaker 1: telling of the person who wrote it. I was just 1049 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,400 Speaker 1: gonna say, actually, that is kind of interesting. Like the 1050 01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:33,240 Speaker 1: only kind of communal, the communal like moments of magic 1051 01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,800 Speaker 1: in Harry Potter that I can think of are like 1052 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,840 Speaker 1: what like when they when they build a fortress around 1053 01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:43,040 Speaker 1: But that's the only in the movies. It's not in 1054 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:44,760 Speaker 1: the books. You know, it's not the book. It's not 1055 01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:46,440 Speaker 1: in the books, and you know what that scene is, 1056 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,040 Speaker 1: so you know, there's no like Harry Potter that's a 1057 01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,440 Speaker 1: magic system. Where I think magic in Harry Potter is 1058 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:56,080 Speaker 1: so banal and so every day and there's no sense 1059 01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,960 Speaker 1: of like wonder about it, and there's no real ritual 1060 01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,120 Speaker 1: around magic. There isn't um and I think that's kind 1061 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,840 Speaker 1: of boring. I I prefer, you know, like I loved 1062 01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,959 Speaker 1: and Charmed when they would cold hands and say a spell. Yeah, 1063 01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,320 Speaker 1: Harry Potter was trying to do a different version of it. 1064 01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:12,880 Speaker 1: But I will say, honestly, that scene where they're creating 1065 01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,760 Speaker 1: the fortress and when mcgonicall like um anthropomorphizes the statues 1066 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,840 Speaker 1: makes me cry every time, sobbing and also sobbing, shitting 1067 01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:23,640 Speaker 1: throwing up. I was literally and that's not exactly. I 1068 01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,560 Speaker 1: remember physically crying, and I also think in the books, 1069 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,120 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's my favorite scene in the entire franchise. 1070 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:52,600 Speaker 1: It's go we you know, have come so far from 1071 01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,520 Speaker 1: the you know, original iconography of the witch, like even 1072 01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,680 Speaker 1: from you know, Shakespeare, like oh yeah, the Three Witches, 1073 01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,240 Speaker 1: double double toil and troubles um, get something, get this 1074 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,760 Speaker 1: where it comes and now and now I think we're 1075 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:12,880 Speaker 1: at a point where we're looking back at historical witches 1076 01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:16,080 Speaker 1: through a different lens. Like you know, we've talked about 1077 01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:19,680 Speaker 1: the Madeline Miller effect on this podcast before. If you 1078 01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,800 Speaker 1: haven't read the novel Searcy, it's about Searcy, who's a 1079 01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,880 Speaker 1: demigoddess and you know, sort of the original witch in 1080 01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,640 Speaker 1: Greek mythology, and it's about her discovering that she is. 1081 01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,160 Speaker 1: You know, she kind of invents Switchcraft. I would kind 1082 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:39,080 Speaker 1: of love to see that take applied to Like what 1083 01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,680 Speaker 1: if there was like a Madeline Miller esque Macbeth book 1084 01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: on the Three Witches. You know, I'll bet you it 1085 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,240 Speaker 1: does exist somewhere, but like, honestly, like the witches in Macbeth, honestly, 1086 01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 1: like their whole function is like prophecy right, like they're 1087 01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,200 Speaker 1: the fates of the story, but they don't have any 1088 01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,560 Speaker 1: sort of like interiority or anything that really would be 1089 01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,280 Speaker 1: a good Um, we should write that, Orangine. I'm sure. 1090 01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's been done in some kind of way. 1091 01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:13,680 Speaker 1: And now, of my thumbs and of the wicked witches 1092 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,440 Speaker 1: in the culture, right now we have the Queen herself, 1093 01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:23,640 Speaker 1: Miss Wanda, Yes who this is chaos, This is chaos 1094 01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:26,920 Speaker 1: magic Wanda. I do think that Wanda is maybe the 1095 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:32,280 Speaker 1: most culturally relevant which making work right now. She is. 1096 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,240 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of any others, like Sabrina is 1097 01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,600 Speaker 1: no longer relevant unfortunately, though I do think that Sabrina 1098 01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,280 Speaker 1: was what you were saying, that that kind of taking 1099 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,200 Speaker 1: the witch narrative and making it something very contemporary. I mean, 1100 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,960 Speaker 1: it's been a while since we did our Multiverse of 1101 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,360 Speaker 1: Madness episode and I have since rewatched it and I 1102 01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,760 Speaker 1: have kind of like shifted my take, please, which is 1103 01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,800 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a very good movie, and I 1104 01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,360 Speaker 1: think it kind of did want to dirty, and I 1105 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,320 Speaker 1: think it kind of erodes all the character development that 1106 01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: happened in one division because because she's so flatly villainous. Yes, 1107 01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,440 Speaker 1: I agree with that, because she's way more complex in 1108 01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,800 Speaker 1: the show, and so it is to me really discarding. 1109 01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,800 Speaker 1: And she's also just not the main character, which is frustrating, 1110 01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:26,080 Speaker 1: and it just shows that she didn't learn her lesson, 1111 01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:29,640 Speaker 1: because the whole of wand Division is about her realizing 1112 01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:33,280 Speaker 1: that she can't use magic to get something she wants 1113 01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:37,840 Speaker 1: at other people's expense, and she literally starts over and 1114 01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:40,280 Speaker 1: does that again in Doctor Strange. I also thought the 1115 01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,480 Speaker 1: way she was vanquished was unbelievable, Like she got crushed 1116 01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:45,920 Speaker 1: by I was like, I was, obviously she's not that, 1117 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,880 Speaker 1: but I think she vanquished herself and disappeared, and I 1118 01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,080 Speaker 1: hope there's more from her. I hope we get like 1119 01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:59,720 Speaker 1: one of Wanda's actual iconic storylines from the comics. I 1120 01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: think get will probably be a while, just because they 1121 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: need to do so much setting up this next the 1122 01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,480 Speaker 1: next few phases of the m c U for us 1123 01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,960 Speaker 1: to get to Mutants and like possibly to like House 1124 01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,240 Speaker 1: of m and is Agatha slated for next year though? 1125 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:20,240 Speaker 1: Next year? Yeah, Agatha, And it has a new name now, 1126 01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:24,200 Speaker 1: it's COVID of Chaos. Why so you know this? The 1127 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:28,400 Speaker 1: thing is because witches have always existed in culture, and 1128 01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:34,200 Speaker 1: in pop culture they are cyclical, So I think we 1129 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 1: are due for a more kind of full throated, like 1130 01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:45,880 Speaker 1: actual resurgence of a lot of different types of witches 1131 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:49,240 Speaker 1: in media at some point. The way that we have 1132 01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:54,320 Speaker 1: gotten on and off with vampires, with werewolves, with all 1133 01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,000 Speaker 1: of the above, and things like true Blood. Um, the 1134 01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:01,040 Speaker 1: witches and true Blood kind of suck though, Um God, 1135 01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,240 Speaker 1: I could talk. I could talk for hours about which 1136 01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,520 Speaker 1: is I could too, honestly, And I think a lot 1137 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:07,720 Speaker 1: of it has to do with the fact that by 1138 01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:11,480 Speaker 1: definition they are a part of a subculture and therefore 1139 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,800 Speaker 1: inherently like queer slash trans you know what I mean. Like, 1140 01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that in terms of like what I would 1141 01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,320 Speaker 1: love to see from future which stories is something of 1142 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:24,880 Speaker 1: what Sabrina was trying to do, which is, show us 1143 01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,080 Speaker 1: a slate of which or maybe the Charmed reboot, you 1144 01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,160 Speaker 1: know what I mean, show us a slate of which 1145 01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:35,960 Speaker 1: is that place witchcraft in queerness, tranceness, ostragization. Well, that 1146 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,360 Speaker 1: happened in a book that I talked about on this 1147 01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:42,720 Speaker 1: podcast recently, Her Majesty's Royal Coven by Juno Dawson. I 1148 01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,080 Speaker 1: described it sort of shortly then, but I'll like describe 1149 01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 1: it a little bit more at length here. So it's 1150 01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:53,120 Speaker 1: a novel about a society in England in which witches 1151 01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:57,960 Speaker 1: have always had kind of a secret shadow government inside 1152 01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:02,800 Speaker 1: the actual government, and they govern themselves and you know, 1153 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:07,680 Speaker 1: deal with supernatural events and have like liaisons with the 1154 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,280 Speaker 1: main government. And a couple of years before the novel 1155 01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:14,800 Speaker 1: takes place, there was a magical war, and so the 1156 01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,200 Speaker 1: main characters are all now coming off a couple of 1157 01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,320 Speaker 1: years since that war ended. There are a group of 1158 01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:23,639 Speaker 1: friends who grew up together very closely. They're all witches, 1159 01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,439 Speaker 1: and they've now all kind of fallen out of touch. 1160 01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,800 Speaker 1: And one of the witches has broken off from the 1161 01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,400 Speaker 1: main coven because it was entirely made up of white witches, 1162 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:37,439 Speaker 1: and she's now formed her own more inclusive coven um 1163 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,400 Speaker 1: that's I think called diaspora, which is like a bit 1164 01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:45,560 Speaker 1: on the nose. But and then, you know, most interestingly, 1165 01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:50,640 Speaker 1: um so in this world, witches are only women, and 1166 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,640 Speaker 1: they are significantly more powerful than their male counterparts, warlocks. 1167 01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,880 Speaker 1: And they find a child who they believed to be 1168 01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,880 Speaker 1: the anti Christ. He's a boy who has much more 1169 01:10:00,920 --> 01:10:04,360 Speaker 1: magical ability than he should have. And as it turns out, 1170 01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:08,880 Speaker 1: this person is a trans woman and that's why she 1171 01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 1: is more powerful, and so it has all of the 1172 01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:17,679 Speaker 1: characters kind of question how they feel about that. Several 1173 01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,000 Speaker 1: of them were like, oh, it makes sense, she's a girl, 1174 01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,559 Speaker 1: that's why she's more powerful, and there's never really a 1175 01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:27,320 Speaker 1: question of like the science or like the magic, just 1176 01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:30,080 Speaker 1: like some of them obviously have to work through different 1177 01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,280 Speaker 1: ways that they feel about it, but they do kind 1178 01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,080 Speaker 1: of say like, Okay, well, this person is who she is. 1179 01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,920 Speaker 1: But then one of the women who is the leader 1180 01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:45,000 Speaker 1: of the coven is a turf and doesn't want this 1181 01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:50,479 Speaker 1: person invading women's spaces. Remember you telling me that it's 1182 01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:54,080 Speaker 1: it's it's a really really good book and it does 1183 01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:56,040 Speaker 1: all of those things that you were just talking about, 1184 01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:59,960 Speaker 1: which is need this movie adaptation, which is placing these 1185 01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:04,559 Speaker 1: archetypes and kind of the same stories we tell about, 1186 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,759 Speaker 1: which is over and over again in a very contemporary setting, 1187 01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,639 Speaker 1: and like throwing identity politics at them and seeing how 1188 01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,080 Speaker 1: they work out. And that's something I'm so interested to 1189 01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:19,080 Speaker 1: see what the next evolution of the Witch as a 1190 01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,600 Speaker 1: cultural figure is and I think we will be the 1191 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:32,400 Speaker 1: ones to do it. Yeah, we will be the ones. Okay, 1192 01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:36,000 Speaker 1: So that is down on week one of our special 1193 01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:40,920 Speaker 1: Halloween Extravaganza. Next week we'll be back with two new episodes. 1194 01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:44,720 Speaker 1: A special episode all about Silence of the Lambs which 1195 01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:46,880 Speaker 1: I've never seen, which friend has never seen, and then 1196 01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:49,920 Speaker 1: on Thursday and episode all about Tim Burton. So go 1197 01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:54,960 Speaker 1: back watch Edward Scissor Hands or Sleepy Hollow or Beetlejuice, 1198 01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:59,439 Speaker 1: whatever and um in the meantime finals. On social, you 1199 01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:04,200 Speaker 1: can tag our finsta at Like a Virgin, slide into 1200 01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:06,679 Speaker 1: our d ms. We want to hear from you. Also, 1201 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,800 Speaker 1: please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating 1202 01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:12,880 Speaker 1: on Spotify. It helps us out so much. We cannot 1203 01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,800 Speaker 1: tell you how much. I'm your co host Rose Damn You, 1204 01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:18,719 Speaker 1: and I am fran Dorato. You can find me anywhere 1205 01:12:18,760 --> 01:12:20,800 Speaker 1: on Social at Rose Damn You. You can find me 1206 01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,760 Speaker 1: at Franz Squish co. You can subscribe to Like a 1207 01:12:23,840 --> 01:12:26,800 Speaker 1: Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts. Like a Virgin is 1208 01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,960 Speaker 1: an i Heeart radio production. Our producer is phoebe Unter, 1209 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:33,840 Speaker 1: with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Trich 1210 01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,759 Speaker 1: and Nikkiatur until next week. Double double toil and trouble 1211 01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:43,479 Speaker 1: until next week. Sisters, we've f lie lim My Brande