1 00:00:00,850 --> 00:00:03,510 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. We're inching toward the end of the year. 2 00:00:03,630 --> 00:00:06,229 Speaker 1: It's December 10th, 2020 in COVID time. 3 00:00:06,970 --> 00:00:09,650 Speaker 2: And we are here to tell you about the episode, 4 00:00:09,670 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: or at least I'm here, the Taliesin Massacre. It's a 5 00:00:14,470 --> 00:00:18,739 Speaker 2: massacre that happened at the perhaps Frank Lloyd Wright's greatest work, 6 00:00:19,420 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: Taliesin in Wisconsin. And I picked this one because, geez, 7 00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: by this time, I will have long done this in 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: real time. 9 00:00:27,620 --> 00:00:28,450 Speaker 1: But I. 10 00:00:29,130 --> 00:00:32,490 Speaker 2: am going and have went to the Green Bay Packers, 11 00:00:32,950 --> 00:00:35,530 Speaker 2: the Atlanta Falcons at Lambeau Field playing the Green Bay Packers. 12 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:37,990 Speaker 2: And I knew this game was on the calendar. And 13 00:00:38,010 --> 00:00:41,330 Speaker 2: I went with my good friend, Adam Pranica, the greatest generation, 14 00:00:42,050 --> 00:00:44,979 Speaker 2: and my good friend from high school, Robert Chahade. And 15 00:00:45,020 --> 00:00:48,380 Speaker 2: we all met up in Green Bay with Adam's uncle, 16 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: Uncle Pete Pranica, by the way, who is the voice 17 00:00:51,460 --> 00:00:54,660 Speaker 2: of the Memphis Grizzlies. So I can say this with confidence, 18 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: even though it hasn't happened yet. I know I had 19 00:00:56,180 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: a great time talking to Uncle Pete. Because I've long 20 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,100 Speaker 2: wanted to meet him, and I'm a big fan of 21 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,580 Speaker 2: the NBA. My mom's from Memphis, and so I know 22 00:01:02,620 --> 00:01:03,900 Speaker 2: we had a lot to talk about. It's kind of 23 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,620 Speaker 2: weird because I know this is all true, but it 24 00:01:05,660 --> 00:01:09,380 Speaker 2: hasn't happened yet. But on my list, I don't know 25 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,170 Speaker 2: if I made it or not. I guess time will tell. 26 00:01:11,610 --> 00:01:13,190 Speaker 2: I wanted to go see Taliesin. I know we're playing 27 00:01:13,209 --> 00:01:15,910 Speaker 2: golf at Whispering Pines, and I know that went well. 28 00:01:16,610 --> 00:01:18,229 Speaker 2: I don't know how I shot yet, but I know 29 00:01:18,290 --> 00:01:19,810 Speaker 2: that Whispering Pines is lovely, and it had to be 30 00:01:19,830 --> 00:01:22,230 Speaker 2: great unless it was pouring down rain. 31 00:01:22,250 --> 00:01:23,310 Speaker 1: But who cares? Play in the rain. 32 00:01:24,209 --> 00:01:26,449 Speaker 2: But, like I said, maybe I'll follow up and let 33 00:01:26,470 --> 00:01:28,190 Speaker 2: you know if I actually made it out to Taliesin. 34 00:01:28,209 --> 00:01:31,420 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if the calendar had enough space. But 35 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: at the very least, I was well prepared with my 36 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,580 Speaker 2: knowledge of the Taliesin Massacre, and you will be too 37 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,100 Speaker 2: if you listen right now. 38 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 39 00:01:52,900 --> 00:01:55,860 Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and 40 00:01:55,900 --> 00:02:00,010 Speaker 3: there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's here, and this 41 00:02:00,090 --> 00:02:06,470 Speaker 3: is Stuff You Should Know, the long-awaited Frank Lloyd Wright edition. 42 00:02:07,710 --> 00:02:08,190 Speaker 1: Sort of. 43 00:02:08,210 --> 00:02:09,990 Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of. 44 00:02:10,090 --> 00:02:13,770 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's not a full biography, but 45 00:02:14,430 --> 00:02:17,990 Speaker 2: it definitely covers a very dark period of his life. 46 00:02:18,850 --> 00:02:19,230 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 47 00:02:19,669 --> 00:02:23,019 Speaker 3: One of the darker periods that any... artiste could have. 48 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 3: And make no mistake, Frank Lloyd Wright was an artiste. 49 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,019 Speaker 3: He was an artiste of architecture. 50 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. Have you ever, how many houses of his have 51 00:02:31,580 --> 00:02:32,460 Speaker 1: you seen or buildings? 52 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,250 Speaker 3: I've seen a bunch. I've been to Hollyhock in Los Angeles. 53 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:40,970 Speaker 3: I've been to a Usonian, I can't remember which one, 54 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:45,970 Speaker 3: in Washington by the, one of the, I can't remember 55 00:02:46,010 --> 00:02:48,940 Speaker 3: what other historic house it's by. They moved it. I've 56 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 3: been to, there's a Usonian in Alabama, Chuck, in Florence, Alabama, 57 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,489 Speaker 3: which is really neat. Been to Fallingwater. Been to Talias 58 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:58,730 Speaker 3: in West. I think that's it. 59 00:02:59,290 --> 00:03:01,370 Speaker 1: Yeah. I've been to a handful myself. I've been to 60 00:03:01,430 --> 00:03:04,970 Speaker 1: one in Tulsa and a couple in LA. Of course, 61 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:08,250 Speaker 1: the Guggenheim. I think we've both been there. I have not. 62 00:03:08,550 --> 00:03:08,870 Speaker 3: I have not. 63 00:03:08,889 --> 00:03:09,350 Speaker 1: No, really? 64 00:03:09,870 --> 00:03:10,110 Speaker 3: Yeah. 65 00:03:10,669 --> 00:03:13,049 Speaker 1: All the times you've been to New York and all 66 00:03:13,090 --> 00:03:15,130 Speaker 1: the museums, you never step foot in the Guggenheim? 67 00:03:15,590 --> 00:03:18,790 Speaker 3: It's true. I've never been in the Guggenheim, sadly enough. 68 00:03:18,870 --> 00:03:21,250 Speaker 3: I saw a movie where there's a shootout in the Guggenheim. 69 00:03:22,930 --> 00:03:25,310 Speaker 1: I highly recommend going to the Guggenheim. It's great. 70 00:03:25,710 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 3: Okay. I thought it was George Costanza that designed the Guggenheim, 71 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: not Frank Lloyd Wright. 72 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,180 Speaker 1: That's right. He always wanted to be an architect. 73 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 3: That's right. 74 00:03:35,740 --> 00:03:39,030 Speaker 2: My favorite line for that episode is when he talks 75 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:42,390 Speaker 2: about the redesign plans of the Guggenheim and they go, really? 76 00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: He goes, Yeah, it really didn't even take that long. 77 00:03:45,060 --> 00:03:48,110 Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah. He's saying that he was the one 78 00:03:48,230 --> 00:03:49,170 Speaker 3: who redesigned it. 79 00:03:49,790 --> 00:03:52,390 Speaker 1: Like it's impressive that it was just a really quick job. 80 00:03:52,410 --> 00:03:56,730 Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, that's a classic. But we're not talking about 81 00:03:56,750 --> 00:03:59,620 Speaker 3: the Guggenheim today, Chuck. We're not even talking about Hollyhock House. 82 00:03:59,660 --> 00:04:05,580 Speaker 3: We're talking about specifically Taliesin, which is widely regarded as 83 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:12,030 Speaker 3: Frank Lloyd Wright's genuine bona fide masterpiece, like his greatest 84 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:18,710 Speaker 3: work ever. I think it said that it's his autobiography 85 00:04:18,990 --> 00:04:22,770 Speaker 3: written in wood and stone, that it's just him. And 86 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,810 Speaker 3: not just him in a specific time and place, but 87 00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 3: for decades where the work, his earliest work to his 88 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: latest work, all showed up and appeared over time at Taliesin. 89 00:04:33,779 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot there. It was his 90 00:04:36,740 --> 00:04:43,330 Speaker 2: home at times. It was his studio of school. an 91 00:04:43,350 --> 00:04:48,670 Speaker 2: 800-acre estate. This was family land. It was his favorite 92 00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:51,570 Speaker 2: hill in Wisconsin in the river valley there where his 93 00:04:51,610 --> 00:04:53,450 Speaker 2: Welsh grandparents originally homesteaded. 94 00:04:54,150 --> 00:04:56,130 Speaker 1: And so it was very personal to him. 95 00:04:56,810 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: So he did things like make the roof so it 96 00:05:00,020 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: doesn't leak water into the offices below. 97 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: Like some of his other properties. 98 00:05:06,500 --> 00:05:07,220 Speaker 3: Exactly. 99 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:07,940 Speaker 1: Yeah. 100 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:10,300 Speaker 3: He wasn't one to just move his desk, right? Right. 101 00:05:10,339 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 4: Right. 102 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 3: So this particular house, and it still is, it's a huge, 103 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: enormous house. I think it's 21,000 square feet. It's a 104 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 3: classic example of what's called the prairie style, which is 105 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: a style of architecture considered to be the first genuine 106 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: American style of architecture that Frank Lloyd Wright founded back in, 107 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:38,150 Speaker 3: I think, the 1890s, maybe the late 1890s. And it 108 00:05:38,190 --> 00:05:41,830 Speaker 3: takes its inspiration from the surrounding environment. It's meant to 109 00:05:41,890 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 3: blend in with the environment, work with the environment rather 110 00:05:44,950 --> 00:05:48,020 Speaker 3: than to dominate it. So there's a lot of horizontal lines, 111 00:05:48,060 --> 00:05:51,140 Speaker 3: a lot of natural materials, a lot of woodworking. And 112 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,260 Speaker 3: Taliesin is very much in that style. I think it 113 00:05:56,580 --> 00:06:00,930 Speaker 3: has 524 windows, which is a lot of windows. And 114 00:06:01,670 --> 00:06:05,270 Speaker 3: it also has no gutters. There's a lot of cantilevered roofs, 115 00:06:05,350 --> 00:06:09,529 Speaker 3: which kind of overhang pretty far, so there wasn't necessarily 116 00:06:09,550 --> 00:06:11,670 Speaker 3: a need for gutters. But I read that Frank Lloyd 117 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:15,170 Speaker 3: Wright specifically didn't want gutters because he wanted icicles to 118 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:17,370 Speaker 3: form on the eaves of the roof so he could 119 00:06:17,750 --> 00:06:21,490 Speaker 3: look out of those 524 windows in the Wisconsin winter 120 00:06:21,850 --> 00:06:23,330 Speaker 3: and see all the icicles hanging. 121 00:06:24,460 --> 00:06:26,619 Speaker 1: Ed, do you like the prairie homes, that style? 122 00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I do. My problem with Frank Lloyd Wright's 123 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 3: work is that it's so dated and old-timey that it 124 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: almost like It almost makes me a combination of scared 125 00:06:41,820 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: and nauseous. You know what I'm talking about? Sure. Have 126 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: you ever looked at a wicker wheelchair from, like, the 127 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 3: turn of the last century? 128 00:06:50,940 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. 129 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,740 Speaker 3: You just kind of get the creeps from it for 130 00:06:53,779 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 3: some reason. Okay. 131 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:56,850 Speaker 2: You get that same feeling. I mean, you know, he 132 00:06:56,870 --> 00:06:59,590 Speaker 2: did the bulk of his work 100 years ago. 133 00:06:59,610 --> 00:07:01,550 Speaker 1: Right. You know, somewhere in that range. 134 00:07:02,110 --> 00:07:09,550 Speaker 3: But it was also very technologically– advanced. And like, he 135 00:07:09,590 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 3: was just doing some really interesting stuff. So the way 136 00:07:12,580 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 3: that a very dated, once technologically advanced piece of work 137 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: can kind of cull that weird feeling out of you. 138 00:07:21,580 --> 00:07:23,670 Speaker 3: But at the same time, I'm like in genuine awe 139 00:07:23,710 --> 00:07:25,410 Speaker 3: of the stuff he did. Like falling water is one 140 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:27,690 Speaker 3: of my favorite houses in the entire world. 141 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:32,710 Speaker 1: Sure. I mean, it's gorgeous. Amazing. What about you? I 142 00:07:32,730 --> 00:07:32,950 Speaker 1: like them. 143 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:33,300 Speaker 4: All right. 144 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:34,060 Speaker 1: They're, they're fine. 145 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:37,550 Speaker 2: Um, Some of them, and I have some here in 146 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,470 Speaker 2: the neighborhood that pop up every now and then. Some 147 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:43,270 Speaker 2: newer builds are in the prairie style. And I like 148 00:07:43,290 --> 00:07:45,970 Speaker 2: them more than some other kinds and less than some 149 00:07:45,990 --> 00:07:46,489 Speaker 2: other kinds. 150 00:07:46,670 --> 00:07:47,350 Speaker 1: Let's just say that. 151 00:07:49,110 --> 00:07:50,030 Speaker 3: You like craftsmen? 152 00:07:50,810 --> 00:07:53,620 Speaker 1: Well, sure. I live in a craftsman. That's my favorite. 153 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:55,780 Speaker 3: I like craftsmen, too. I think they're good. 154 00:07:56,700 --> 00:08:00,860 Speaker 2: I love a highly slick modern home. I don't want 155 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:02,220 Speaker 2: to live in one, but I love them. 156 00:08:03,090 --> 00:08:04,730 Speaker 3: I would not want to live in one either. Those 157 00:08:04,770 --> 00:08:07,330 Speaker 3: are hit or miss with me. Like some of them 158 00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:10,450 Speaker 3: are just too, just God awful. Some of them are just, 159 00:08:10,550 --> 00:08:12,410 Speaker 3: when they hit the nail on the head, you're like, wow, 160 00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:15,450 Speaker 3: that's one of the best houses anyone's ever designed and built. 161 00:08:16,030 --> 00:08:19,390 Speaker 3: But they miss, it's almost like documentaries and horror movies. 162 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:22,630 Speaker 3: There's a lot of them, but only very, very few 163 00:08:22,690 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 3: like are truly great. That's my impression of modern homes. 164 00:08:27,340 --> 00:08:27,700 Speaker 1: Yeah. 165 00:08:27,860 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: I'm into, we're into architecture though as a couple, Emily 166 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:31,180 Speaker 2: and I, and. 167 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,260 Speaker 1: We watch a couple of- Oh, I thought you meant 168 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,260 Speaker 1: you and me. Great. Well, us too. It's a triad. Well, 169 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: I guess throw you and me in there and I 170 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: guess we'd be a portion. 171 00:08:39,610 --> 00:08:42,189 Speaker 2: But we have a couple of shows that we love 172 00:08:42,210 --> 00:08:44,830 Speaker 2: to watch that are, there's one called Grand Designs on 173 00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:46,110 Speaker 2: Netflix that I highly recommend. 174 00:08:46,130 --> 00:08:48,540 Speaker 1: And oh man, what's the other one? 175 00:08:48,550 --> 00:08:51,450 Speaker 2: There's this couple, not a married couple, but a pair 176 00:08:51,510 --> 00:08:52,570 Speaker 2: that travels the world. 177 00:08:53,110 --> 00:08:55,370 Speaker 3: The Great British Architecture Bake Off? 178 00:08:55,910 --> 00:08:59,620 Speaker 1: No, that's not it. I can't remember what it's called, 179 00:08:59,660 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: but Grand Designs is really good. 180 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,689 Speaker 2: I mean, and they follow these you know, sort of 181 00:09:03,870 --> 00:09:09,270 Speaker 2: impossibly built houses designed and built by these incredible lunatic 182 00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:12,339 Speaker 2: dreamers who are obsessed with sort of a thing. It 183 00:09:13,270 --> 00:09:16,739 Speaker 2: seems to be the common thread is these obsessives. And 184 00:09:16,780 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: it leads to something beautiful and great, you know, usually. 185 00:09:19,380 --> 00:09:22,900 Speaker 3: For sure. Yeah. So one of the things about Frank 186 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: Lloyd Wright is that he is, including during his lifetime, 187 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,140 Speaker 3: he's considered one of the greatest architects to ever live. 188 00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:35,500 Speaker 3: Certainly the most popularly well-known, maybe, I guess you'd put it. Like, 189 00:09:35,940 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: anybody who's ever heard of any kind of architecture, even vaguely, 190 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 3: is probably familiar with Frank Lloyd Wright. 191 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:43,820 Speaker 1: Agreed. 192 00:09:44,260 --> 00:09:48,349 Speaker 3: So, when he put all of himself into Taliesin, he 193 00:09:48,370 --> 00:09:51,349 Speaker 3: was building a home for himself, and I think it 194 00:09:51,370 --> 00:09:54,390 Speaker 3: was completed in 1911. And, like, it's worth pointing out, 195 00:09:54,470 --> 00:09:57,229 Speaker 3: he was returning to his childhood home, to the valley 196 00:09:57,730 --> 00:10:02,500 Speaker 3: where his clan, like, settled. Like if you look around 197 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: Spring Green, Wisconsin, everybody's got the name Lloyd in there somewhere. 198 00:10:07,460 --> 00:10:11,610 Speaker 3: Like his maternal ancestors settled that area. And he was 199 00:10:11,660 --> 00:10:14,290 Speaker 3: literally building on this hill, his favorite hill when he 200 00:10:14,309 --> 00:10:16,390 Speaker 3: was a child, like you were saying. But he was 201 00:10:16,470 --> 00:10:18,750 Speaker 3: doing this. in the midst of one of the biggest 202 00:10:18,809 --> 00:10:21,150 Speaker 3: scandals like any architect's ever gone through. 203 00:10:22,030 --> 00:10:24,989 Speaker 2: Yeah, so as you'll see through this show, and if 204 00:10:25,010 --> 00:10:28,690 Speaker 2: you know anything about the man, Frank Lloyd Wright had 205 00:10:28,770 --> 00:10:30,370 Speaker 2: a bit of a wandering eye and a bit of 206 00:10:30,410 --> 00:10:35,470 Speaker 2: a philandering habit. And he had an extramarital affair with 207 00:10:35,510 --> 00:10:38,710 Speaker 2: a woman named M-A-M-A-H. 208 00:10:39,790 --> 00:10:41,870 Speaker 1: Mama? Mama? Borthwick. 209 00:10:42,130 --> 00:10:45,370 Speaker 3: Huh? I don't know. I've been testing it out, too. 210 00:10:45,470 --> 00:10:46,350 Speaker 3: I said Mama. 211 00:10:46,850 --> 00:10:47,050 Speaker 4: Mama? 212 00:10:47,929 --> 00:10:48,189 Speaker 3: Sure. 213 00:10:48,929 --> 00:10:49,370 Speaker 1: Borthwick. 214 00:10:49,429 --> 00:10:53,460 Speaker 2: And she was, you know, they met in 1903. Wright 215 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,290 Speaker 2: was in his mid 30s at the time. He was 216 00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:59,020 Speaker 2: already really famous as an architect. And he was commissioned 217 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,660 Speaker 2: to design a house for her and her husband, Edwin Chaney. 218 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,179 Speaker 2: And they were it was going to be built there 219 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: in Wisconsin, pretty close to Chicago, where Frank Lloyd Wright. 220 00:11:10,179 --> 00:11:10,819 Speaker 1: Was at the time. 221 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:13,980 Speaker 2: She was pregnant in her mid 30s at the time 222 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,189 Speaker 2: with her second child. and got really involved in sort 223 00:11:19,230 --> 00:11:22,290 Speaker 2: of working with Frank Lloyd Wright very closely. And that 224 00:11:22,450 --> 00:11:25,100 Speaker 2: sort of, you know, the classic story, at first it 225 00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:28,100 Speaker 2: starts out platonic, one thing leads to another, and before 226 00:11:28,140 --> 00:11:30,140 Speaker 2: you know it, they're bumping uglies. 227 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: That's right. Smashing, as the younger kids say, from what 228 00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:34,700 Speaker 3: I understand. 229 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:35,900 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just heard that for the first time the 230 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,020 Speaker 1: other day. Didn't know that was a thing. 231 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,990 Speaker 3: So it's a thing now. So Frank Lloyd Wright, by 232 00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:44,110 Speaker 3: this time, had six kids of his own, and he 233 00:11:44,150 --> 00:11:48,410 Speaker 3: had made a name for himself around Chicago, building homes, 234 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: designing homes for the well-to-do, especially in the Oak Park neighborhood. Apparently, 235 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:01,060 Speaker 3: just between 1900 and 1910, he designed 50 prairie houses. 236 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: So he'd made a name for himself. But apparently, by 237 00:12:04,090 --> 00:12:09,689 Speaker 3: the time, I think 1908 was when He, no, 1907 238 00:12:09,690 --> 00:12:12,709 Speaker 3: when they started their affair. By the time 1907 rolled around, 239 00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:15,290 Speaker 3: he was getting kind of tired of doing the same thing. 240 00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:18,130 Speaker 3: It's kind of like he was cursed. Like this school 241 00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:22,569 Speaker 3: of architecture that he developed was so popular that he, 242 00:12:23,170 --> 00:12:25,670 Speaker 3: that's all anybody wanted. And he had gotten bored with 243 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:28,500 Speaker 3: it by that time. So he seems to have been 244 00:12:28,630 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: unfulfilled professionally and kind of took it out on his 245 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:35,459 Speaker 3: family in about the worst way you could possibly take 246 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,809 Speaker 3: things out on your family short of Cutting them up 247 00:12:38,850 --> 00:12:42,709 Speaker 3: with the machete. Yeah. 248 00:12:43,170 --> 00:12:47,069 Speaker 2: By 1908, it was a pretty much well-known open secret 249 00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:51,210 Speaker 2: in Chicago and of that high society in Chicago that 250 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:54,740 Speaker 2: this affair was going on. And he was sort of 251 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: looked down on from his friends and his neighbors and 252 00:12:57,140 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: his peers, different colleagues. His poor wife, Kitty, was long-suffering 253 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:06,210 Speaker 2: because she kind of stood by his side anyway. And 254 00:13:06,309 --> 00:13:09,270 Speaker 2: he realized that he really wanted to leave his family. 255 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:12,870 Speaker 1: And he did so. He said, I did not know 256 00:13:12,890 --> 00:13:16,830 Speaker 1: what I wanted. I wanted to go away. And he did. 257 00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:21,429 Speaker 2: In September of 1909, Frank left with her, went to Europe, 258 00:13:21,590 --> 00:13:25,610 Speaker 2: left his wife and his six kids behind. And here's 259 00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:28,550 Speaker 2: one of the more selfish quotes I've ever seen from 260 00:13:28,809 --> 00:13:32,070 Speaker 2: a husband and father. And this was in his autobiography. 261 00:13:33,010 --> 00:13:35,270 Speaker 2: So when family life in Oak Park in that spring 262 00:13:35,290 --> 00:13:39,150 Speaker 2: of 1909 conspired against the freedom to which I had 263 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,740 Speaker 2: come to feel every soul entitled, I had no choice. 264 00:13:43,740 --> 00:13:47,219 Speaker 2: Would I keep my self-respect, but to go out a 265 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:53,179 Speaker 2: voluntary exile? So he really felt, and you know, those 266 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,099 Speaker 2: were his words in his autobiography. So he wasn't, he 267 00:13:56,140 --> 00:13:58,300 Speaker 2: had no illusions about himself, but he very much felt 268 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,970 Speaker 2: that you know what, I'm Frank Lloyd Wright and I'm 269 00:14:01,010 --> 00:14:04,070 Speaker 2: a man and I deserve this by my right. 270 00:14:04,390 --> 00:14:07,050 Speaker 3: Yeah, so those are two key points. He's a man, 271 00:14:07,190 --> 00:14:10,189 Speaker 3: so he deserved it. But more than anything, he was 272 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:13,390 Speaker 3: a legend in his own mind, which was sustained and 273 00:14:13,710 --> 00:14:16,820 Speaker 3: verified by the public at large. But he was Frank 274 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,900 Speaker 3: Lloyd Wright. So more than anybody, he deserved that to 275 00:14:19,980 --> 00:14:22,460 Speaker 3: go do whatever he wanted. And, you know, whatever the 276 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 3: consequences were for other people emotionally, to hell with that. 277 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,660 Speaker 3: One other thing that I think is worth pointing out 278 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,420 Speaker 3: is that he had money problems basically his entire life, 279 00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:36,060 Speaker 3: despite the fact that, I mean, this man designed the Guggenheim. 280 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:40,590 Speaker 3: He designed some of the most iconic buildings and houses 281 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,890 Speaker 3: in the United States. And he had money just coming 282 00:14:43,930 --> 00:14:45,890 Speaker 3: in by the truckload, but he would spend it as 283 00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:48,450 Speaker 3: fast as he could get it and then some. So 284 00:14:48,830 --> 00:14:53,010 Speaker 3: at this point in time, when he left his family, 285 00:14:53,390 --> 00:14:57,270 Speaker 3: he apparently left them in financial straits as well. There, 286 00:14:57,390 --> 00:15:03,700 Speaker 3: there was, um, there's a biographer named, um, Paul Hendricks and, uh, 287 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: Paul Hendrickson, I'm sorry. And he points out that there 288 00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:09,700 Speaker 3: was a $ 900 grocery bill that, um, was laying on 289 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,340 Speaker 3: the kitchen counter when, when, uh, Frank Lloyd Wright walked 290 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:14,620 Speaker 3: out on his family, which I mean, at least pay 291 00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:17,609 Speaker 3: the grocery bill. So the family that you're leaving in 292 00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:18,990 Speaker 3: a lurch can eat, you know? 293 00:15:19,970 --> 00:15:23,470 Speaker 2: Yeah. So his, uh, his mistress left her two kids, uh, 294 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:26,230 Speaker 2: with her husband and, She went on a train to 295 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:28,510 Speaker 2: New York City, met Frank at the Plaza Hotel. 296 00:15:28,990 --> 00:15:32,670 Speaker 1: They had a few days there of, I guess, smashing. 297 00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:37,810 Speaker 2: And then went to Europe, and he was famous the 298 00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:39,910 Speaker 2: world over, so it's not like he could lay low. 299 00:15:40,430 --> 00:15:44,190 Speaker 2: Very famous face, very famous dresser of fine clothing and 300 00:15:44,210 --> 00:15:47,190 Speaker 2: those hats. So he didn't exactly blend in anywhere he went. 301 00:15:47,650 --> 00:15:51,570 Speaker 2: So he was found out in Berlin. Chicago Tribune had 302 00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:55,010 Speaker 2: a headline that said, Leave families, semicolon. 303 00:15:56,190 --> 00:15:58,630 Speaker 1: Nice little switch there. Elope to Europe. 304 00:15:59,510 --> 00:16:02,910 Speaker 2: And this whole time, poor Kitty, she says, it appears 305 00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:05,770 Speaker 2: like any other ordinary mundane affair with the trappings of 306 00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,030 Speaker 2: what is low and vulgar. But there's nothing of that 307 00:16:08,070 --> 00:16:10,070 Speaker 2: sort about Frank Wright. He is honest and sincere. 308 00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: I know him. My heart is with him now. I 309 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,460 Speaker 1: feel certain that he will come back. 310 00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:17,260 Speaker 2: And that's one of the saddest parts about all this 311 00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:19,900 Speaker 2: is she was sort of like, he's just philandering a 312 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:21,050 Speaker 2: bit and he'll come back to us. 313 00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:23,910 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is sad. But also, you know, whatever his 314 00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:26,910 Speaker 3: kids were thinking, too. Like, well, I guess dad didn't 315 00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:30,790 Speaker 3: love us enough to stick around. Another, I think, kind 316 00:16:30,830 --> 00:16:35,330 Speaker 3: of telling clue about Frank Lloyd Wright's enormous arrogance was 317 00:16:35,370 --> 00:16:41,670 Speaker 3: he called his and... What are we going to call her, Chuck? 318 00:16:44,070 --> 00:16:44,430 Speaker 1: Mamma? 319 00:16:44,450 --> 00:16:46,270 Speaker 3: I'm calling her Mamma. 320 00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:47,050 Speaker 1: Okay. 321 00:16:47,430 --> 00:16:53,940 Speaker 3: His and Mamma's... flight to Europe after abandoning their families. 322 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:59,020 Speaker 3: He called it a spiritual Hegira. And I had not 323 00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:02,870 Speaker 3: seen that word before. And it turns out Hegira, H-E-G-I-R-A, 324 00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:08,889 Speaker 3: is what Muhammad's exodus from persecution in Mecca was called. 325 00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:12,109 Speaker 3: And he left Mecca to go to Medina, where he 326 00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:15,229 Speaker 3: founded Islam. And to Frank Lloyd Wright, this is what 327 00:17:15,250 --> 00:17:17,290 Speaker 3: he and his mistress were doing when they abandoned their 328 00:17:17,330 --> 00:17:18,609 Speaker 3: families and fled to Europe. 329 00:17:19,010 --> 00:17:21,010 Speaker 1: Yeah, he thought a lot of himself. 330 00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:24,750 Speaker 3: He was an SOB, man, plain and simple. He's a 331 00:17:24,820 --> 00:17:30,300 Speaker 3: classic example of having to compartmentalize the genius of the 332 00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:34,020 Speaker 3: work and just the complete horribleness of the person, you know? 333 00:17:34,340 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: I know. I know. But it can be done. It 334 00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:42,139 Speaker 3: can be done. I disagree with anybody who says, you know, 335 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,300 Speaker 3: there's certain exceptions, I'm sure. But anybody who says, well, 336 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,220 Speaker 3: this person held some pretty terrible views— So we shouldn't 337 00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:51,500 Speaker 3: pay any attention to their work from that point on. 338 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: I disagree with that. I think that there are tons 339 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,700 Speaker 3: of exceptions to that rule, although there are tons of 340 00:17:56,770 --> 00:17:59,370 Speaker 3: exceptions to the exception to that rule, too, if that's 341 00:17:59,790 --> 00:18:00,750 Speaker 3: not confusing enough. 342 00:18:01,410 --> 00:18:03,730 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a personal decision. If someone wants 343 00:18:03,790 --> 00:18:06,990 Speaker 2: to never gaze upon falling waters again, then that's their choice. 344 00:18:07,330 --> 00:18:09,950 Speaker 3: Totally. It's not like I'm going to, you know, grab 345 00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:13,989 Speaker 3: them by their hair and, like, make them look. But 346 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:16,990 Speaker 3: I would disagree with them in a lot of cases. 347 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,409 Speaker 1: Yeah, like Manson's music. Fantastic. 348 00:18:19,630 --> 00:18:21,170 Speaker 3: Just beautiful stuff. 349 00:18:21,369 --> 00:18:22,090 Speaker 1: Really good stuff. 350 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:22,850 Speaker 3: For sure. 351 00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:29,510 Speaker 2: So Frank Lloyd Wright returns to Chicago in 1910. 352 00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:30,870 Speaker 1: Meemaw stayed behind. 353 00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 2: She stayed there in Europe for another year because she 354 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: was getting a divorce from Edwin Chaney. And so she 355 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 2: stayed there wrapping that up. Frank moved back with Kitty. 356 00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:47,190 Speaker 2: He had no intention of staying. And I think it 357 00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: was pretty clear to Kitty at this point because she said, Mr. Wright, 358 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: I wonder if he made her call her that. 359 00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:53,700 Speaker 1: Mr. 360 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,619 Speaker 2: Wright reached here Saturday evening, October 8th, and he has 361 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,210 Speaker 2: brought many beautiful things, everything but his heart, I guess, 362 00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:01,330 Speaker 2: and that he is left in Germany. 363 00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:03,570 Speaker 1: But he came back a bit of a pariah. 364 00:19:03,590 --> 00:19:03,730 Speaker 4: Yeah. 365 00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:08,250 Speaker 3: Oh, just a tad. They were pariahs before. There was 366 00:19:08,270 --> 00:19:11,990 Speaker 3: a woman who grew up living next door to Mama 367 00:19:12,030 --> 00:19:15,260 Speaker 3: and her children. And she, years later in her diary, 368 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: recounted a time when her mom refused to give Frank 369 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: Lloyd Wright cream when he came over from next door 370 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,100 Speaker 3: to borrow some and said that they were sinners and 371 00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: she wasn't going to help them out at all. So 372 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,670 Speaker 3: when they left for Europe, made headline news for leaving 373 00:19:30,690 --> 00:19:33,690 Speaker 3: their families, and then he returns, moves back in with 374 00:19:33,730 --> 00:19:37,969 Speaker 3: his family. Just long enough to plan his next home 375 00:19:38,369 --> 00:19:42,850 Speaker 3: for him and Mama. Like, yeah, the people in his 376 00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:48,450 Speaker 3: social orbit did not take very kindly to that. Professionals, neighbors, friends, 377 00:19:49,030 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: gossip colonists. basically everybody in the Midwest who had anything 378 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 3: to do with anything, like, rejected him and Mama. 379 00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,899 Speaker 2: Yeah, and to boot, when he gets back, because he 380 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: needed seed money for his new home, he had a 381 00:20:04,780 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: benefactor named Darwin Martin, and he said, hey, listen, I 382 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: want to build this great cottage And this affair is 383 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: long over and this is going to be a cottage 384 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,980 Speaker 2: for my mom. And I promise it's not going to 385 00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:21,580 Speaker 2: be our little smash shack. And so give me $ 25, 000 386 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: to get this project going. 387 00:20:23,260 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: He got it. 388 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,869 Speaker 2: He moved into the home with his mistress. And I 389 00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:33,430 Speaker 2: think by Christmas 1911, they were officially living together there 390 00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:34,109 Speaker 2: in Greenspring. 391 00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. He said, thanks, chump. Thanks for the money. And 392 00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 3: because just trashing Frank Lloyd Wright as a person is 393 00:20:40,619 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 3: a lot of fun, I want to add this detail too. 394 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:47,820 Speaker 3: Darwin Martin, his benefactor, over the course of Frank Lloyd 395 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 3: Wright's career, lent Frank Lloyd Wright 75 grand total. And 396 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:58,500 Speaker 3: when the stock market crashed in 1929, Darwin Martin lost everything. 397 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: Like he was flat broke, went from an extraordinarily wealthy 398 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: man to just flat broke for the rest of his life. 399 00:21:07,980 --> 00:21:11,530 Speaker 3: Frank Lloyd Wright never repaid any of that money, but 400 00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:14,469 Speaker 3: he made sure that when his autobiography came out that 401 00:21:14,530 --> 00:21:16,150 Speaker 3: Darwin Martin got a free copy. 402 00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:17,450 Speaker 1: Oh, that's nice. 403 00:21:17,810 --> 00:21:21,130 Speaker 3: Yeah, he really pulled that out at the last minute, 404 00:21:21,170 --> 00:21:21,510 Speaker 3: didn't he? 405 00:21:22,190 --> 00:21:24,270 Speaker 2: All right, so let's take a break, and we'll come 406 00:21:24,310 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: back and talk about things taking a turn for the 407 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,500 Speaker 2: worst a few years later in August of 1914. 408 00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:34,300 Speaker 1: Stuff you should know. 409 00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:42,290 Speaker 4: Stuff you should know. 410 00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 3: Okay, Chuck, so let's just go ahead and get in 411 00:21:56,020 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 3: the way back. I don't want to see this. We'll 412 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 3: just talk about it. We'll leave the way back machine 413 00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:05,350 Speaker 3: out of this one, okay? So on Saturday, August 15th, 1914— 414 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:12,510 Speaker 3: around lunchtime, actually exactly at lunchtime. Mama Borthwick, Frank Lloyd 415 00:22:12,550 --> 00:22:16,550 Speaker 3: Wright's mistress, longtime mistress, was sitting down for lunch on 416 00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:21,110 Speaker 3: a terrace at Taliesin with her two kids. To his 417 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 3: great credit, Edwin Chaney, her ex-husband by this time, was 418 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,940 Speaker 3: not interested in keeping Mama from seeing her children as punishment. 419 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:33,340 Speaker 3: So they went to visit pretty frequently. And this was 420 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 3: a time when they were visiting. So the three of 421 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,820 Speaker 3: them were sitting down to lunch. John, I think he 422 00:22:37,859 --> 00:22:42,260 Speaker 3: was 10, and her daughter Martha, who was 8, and Mama, Mama, 423 00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:45,460 Speaker 3: were sitting down to lunch on the terrace. Okay? Just 424 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:48,070 Speaker 3: put that in your pin. Put that pin in your 425 00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:48,970 Speaker 3: hat and smoke it. 426 00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:55,470 Speaker 1: Wow. Really mixing metaphors. So they're out on the terrace. 427 00:22:56,010 --> 00:22:58,730 Speaker 2: Inside in the dining room, there are five of Frank 428 00:22:58,750 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: Lloyd Wright's employees, Emile Burdell, Thomas Brunker, David Lindblom. Herbert 429 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 2: Fritz and William Weston, and then Weston's son Ernst. So 430 00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:12,010 Speaker 2: they were all sitting down to eat. I think put 431 00:23:12,050 --> 00:23:14,650 Speaker 2: a pin in maybe both of these scenes. And we'll 432 00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:16,550 Speaker 2: tell you a little bit about the handyman of the 433 00:23:16,590 --> 00:23:22,070 Speaker 2: property named Julian Carlton, who in the weeks and months 434 00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:25,370 Speaker 2: leading up to this date had been acting really weird. 435 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: He was aggressive. He was getting in arguments with other people. Um, 436 00:23:30,740 --> 00:23:33,619 Speaker 2: he was acting very strangely. He started sleeping with a 437 00:23:33,660 --> 00:23:36,869 Speaker 2: hatchet and a sack beside his bed. Uh, he was 438 00:23:36,930 --> 00:23:39,689 Speaker 2: married and his wife, you know, verified this stuff. Um, 439 00:23:39,869 --> 00:23:43,530 Speaker 2: he was talking about killing people and there was rumor 440 00:23:43,570 --> 00:23:45,490 Speaker 2: that he was being let go and that there was, 441 00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:47,540 Speaker 2: that he and his wife were already had a, a, 442 00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: basically a train booked to Chicago to look for other jobs. 443 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,420 Speaker 2: So this is sort of the mindset of what's going 444 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,859 Speaker 2: on with Julian Carlton at the time of this lunch. 445 00:23:57,859 --> 00:24:02,139 Speaker 3: Right. Right. Um, so, uh, Julian was actually, so he 446 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:04,440 Speaker 3: was a handyman, but at this point he, he also 447 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 3: helped out, helped his wife Gertrude when she was cooking, 448 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,939 Speaker 3: he would serve. So he served lunch to Mama and 449 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 3: then he served lunch to the five employees in the 450 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 3: dining room. And then as they were, they started to eat, 451 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:19,290 Speaker 3: he approached, um, William Weston, the foreman of the whole jam. 452 00:24:19,550 --> 00:24:22,630 Speaker 3: William Weston was a pretty important guy around Taliesin and 453 00:24:22,890 --> 00:24:25,489 Speaker 3: asked if he could go get, um, some gasoline out 454 00:24:25,530 --> 00:24:27,740 Speaker 3: of the shed, I guess. Because he was going to 455 00:24:27,790 --> 00:24:29,429 Speaker 3: clean some rugs with it. 456 00:24:30,010 --> 00:24:30,830 Speaker 1: With gasoline. 457 00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:32,270 Speaker 3: With gasoline, yes. 458 00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:33,270 Speaker 1: I guess that was a thing back then. 459 00:24:33,650 --> 00:24:36,610 Speaker 3: Sure. That's some old-timey rug cleaning, if I've ever heard 460 00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:41,730 Speaker 3: of it. So Weston said, sure, of course, go ahead. 461 00:24:41,970 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 3: And things went downhill really quickly from that moment on. 462 00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I appreciate you leaving this part to me. 463 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: Carlton comes back. 464 00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 3: Oh, I'll fill in, don't worry. 465 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: He's got the gasoline, and he also has an axe. 466 00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:58,310 Speaker 2: and the, the sequence is a little bit unclear. I've 467 00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:04,050 Speaker 2: seen both ways of which happened first, but he slaughtered, uh, 468 00:25:04,150 --> 00:25:07,540 Speaker 2: mama Borthwick, uh, Borthwick and her kids on the porch 469 00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:11,460 Speaker 2: and then poured gasoline under the dining room doors and, uh, 470 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,660 Speaker 2: trapped them in the room and set the dining room 471 00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:18,830 Speaker 2: and therefore the house on fire with everyone trapped inside. 472 00:25:19,450 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: It gets even worse than that though. Um, After he 473 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,990 Speaker 3: had slaughtered Mama and her kids with the axe and 474 00:25:26,470 --> 00:25:31,210 Speaker 3: set the house on fire, he went around to a window, 475 00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:34,310 Speaker 3: a dining room window, where the people who were trapped 476 00:25:34,350 --> 00:25:35,770 Speaker 3: in the dining room that had just been set on 477 00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:39,740 Speaker 3: fire were jumping to safety from. And as they jumped 478 00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:43,100 Speaker 3: to safety, he ran after them and killed them with 479 00:25:43,140 --> 00:25:45,500 Speaker 3: the axe. He would finish them off. Sometimes they were 480 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 3: on fire, and he would hit them in the head 481 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,570 Speaker 3: with the axe and kill them. And there were nine 482 00:25:50,650 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 3: people there. who were dining that day. And he managed 483 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,590 Speaker 3: to kill seven of the nine. Three people survived the 484 00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:02,850 Speaker 3: initial assault, the fire and then the picking off with 485 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:05,930 Speaker 3: the axe. The first guy who got away was named 486 00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:08,470 Speaker 3: Herb Fritz. He was a draftsman, a younger guy. I 487 00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:10,950 Speaker 3: think he was still a teenager who went on to 488 00:26:10,990 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 3: become an architect, I believe. But he was the first 489 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,100 Speaker 3: one to jump through the window. And so he was 490 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:19,290 Speaker 3: able to get pretty far away from Julian Carlton before 491 00:26:19,350 --> 00:26:21,619 Speaker 3: Carlton noticed that people were jumping through the window and 492 00:26:21,630 --> 00:26:23,500 Speaker 3: came around to pick him off with the axe. 493 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:24,820 Speaker 1: That's right. 494 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 2: William Weston got out of the window. Carlton hit him 495 00:26:30,140 --> 00:26:32,660 Speaker 2: with the axe, thought he was dead, but he wasn't dead. 496 00:26:33,580 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 2: In the meantime, Fritz, like you said, he didn't even, 497 00:26:36,340 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 2: Carlton didn't even know he was gone. So he actually 498 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,500 Speaker 2: managed to get to the neighbors and contact authorities, which 499 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 2: ended up being, you know, ended up sort of saving 500 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,139 Speaker 2: a lot of the house because they helped put it out. 501 00:26:46,850 --> 00:26:48,369 Speaker 2: And the other guy who managed to at least get 502 00:26:48,410 --> 00:26:50,490 Speaker 2: out the window was David Lindblom. 503 00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: He escaped with Fritz. 504 00:26:53,430 --> 00:26:55,980 Speaker 3: So Fritz and Lindblom, like when they ran to that house, 505 00:26:56,020 --> 00:26:57,820 Speaker 3: it was like a half a mile away, which is 506 00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:00,740 Speaker 3: really significant that Lindblom was able to do it because 507 00:27:00,780 --> 00:27:03,580 Speaker 3: he was burned so badly that he died from his burns. 508 00:27:03,619 --> 00:27:05,379 Speaker 3: And yet one of the last things he did on 509 00:27:05,420 --> 00:27:07,500 Speaker 3: Earth was to run a half a mile to get 510 00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 3: help at the house, the nearest house with a phone. 511 00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, you know, people get there. 512 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,730 Speaker 2: They put out the fire hours later. Carlton was discovered 513 00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:22,650 Speaker 2: in the basement of the house in an asbestos-lined boiler room. 514 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 2: He went down there to die in the fire, but 515 00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:30,980 Speaker 2: also doubled up by drinking a bottle of hydrochloric acid 516 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,619 Speaker 2: to make sure he did the job, and neither one 517 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:37,500 Speaker 2: of them worked. He actually survived both of those things. 518 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 3: I actually saw that he was in the furnace because 519 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:44,390 Speaker 3: he was trying to survive the fire. And he didn't 520 00:27:44,430 --> 00:27:46,530 Speaker 3: drink the acid until he knew he was discovered. 521 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,700 Speaker 2: Oh, see, I saw the opposite, that he went down 522 00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:51,460 Speaker 2: to the furnace because he wanted to die in the home. 523 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: Huh. 524 00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. The reason the furnace made sense to me or 525 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: that he was trying to survive in the furnace is 526 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,430 Speaker 3: that if he couldn't escape from the house, that would 527 00:27:59,450 --> 00:28:01,250 Speaker 3: be the safest place because it was the middle of 528 00:28:01,350 --> 00:28:03,369 Speaker 3: August and the furnace wasn't on. So it would have 529 00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:06,910 Speaker 3: conceivably protected him or else it would have turned into 530 00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:10,860 Speaker 3: that bronze bowl torture thing. You know the bronze bowl 531 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,500 Speaker 3: that you put a human being in and light a 532 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:13,420 Speaker 3: fire under the bowl? 533 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,100 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that. 534 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: Sounds like a pretty horrible way to die. Either way, yes, 535 00:28:18,460 --> 00:28:22,649 Speaker 3: it should be restated that Julian Carlton drank what he 536 00:28:22,690 --> 00:28:25,510 Speaker 3: thought was a lethal dose of hydrochloric acid. Like that's 537 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:27,650 Speaker 3: how he chose to try to end his life. 538 00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:31,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was never any motive really rooted out. 539 00:28:33,530 --> 00:28:36,129 Speaker 2: Clearly, looking back now, he suffered from some kind of 540 00:28:36,150 --> 00:28:39,420 Speaker 2: mental illness. I don't think you can just all chalk 541 00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: it up to a grudge over being fired because of 542 00:28:43,030 --> 00:28:47,470 Speaker 2: his behavior over the previous weeks and months. And, you know, 543 00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:48,950 Speaker 2: it's just one of those things. It was a time 544 00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:52,290 Speaker 2: where they weren't diagnosing things like that. So he clearly 545 00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:55,830 Speaker 2: had some form of mental illness, I think. And they 546 00:28:55,870 --> 00:28:59,230 Speaker 2: never conclusively determined a motive. But like I said, his 547 00:28:59,330 --> 00:29:03,190 Speaker 2: wife testified that said, you know, we were headed to Chicago. 548 00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:06,150 Speaker 2: We were going to get work. And he ended up 549 00:29:06,230 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: dying there. but he couldn't eat basically because he had 550 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 2: torn up his stomach lining and his throat so badly 551 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 2: with that hydrochloric acid. He died seven weeks later in 552 00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:16,500 Speaker 2: jail from starvation. 553 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,570 Speaker 3: Yeah, another interpretation I saw is that he had purposefully 554 00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:23,970 Speaker 3: starved himself because the acid didn't work, that it wasn't 555 00:29:24,010 --> 00:29:25,670 Speaker 3: just that he couldn't eat, but that he wouldn't eat 556 00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:30,450 Speaker 3: and that he died from self-imposed starvation. Either one's pretty 557 00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:31,410 Speaker 3: terrible stuff. 558 00:29:31,770 --> 00:29:33,110 Speaker 1: Just a brutal, brutal crime. 559 00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:35,110 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, I agree with you. I think 560 00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:39,130 Speaker 3: he clearly was mentally ill Not just from the act 561 00:29:39,170 --> 00:29:42,420 Speaker 3: that he... carried out but also the the fact that 562 00:29:42,460 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 3: he'd been ranting and sleeping with an axe for weeks 563 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 3: leading up to it but I think his perceived treatment 564 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,820 Speaker 3: or outright treatment around Taliesin coupled with the idea that 565 00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:54,740 Speaker 3: they had been dismissed and that was going to be 566 00:29:54,790 --> 00:29:58,730 Speaker 3: their last day is I guess what drove him over the. 567 00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:03,950 Speaker 2: Edge Yeah, so Frank, you've noticed we haven't mentioned him. 568 00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:06,970 Speaker 2: He was in Chicago at the time. He was working, 569 00:30:07,490 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: kind of finalizing everything on the construction of Midway Gardens 570 00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:14,460 Speaker 2: there in Chicago, working with his son, John Lloyd Wright, 571 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:18,780 Speaker 2: who was his second oldest. And in the autobiography of 572 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,230 Speaker 2: John Wright, called My Father Who Was on Earth, said 573 00:30:22,290 --> 00:30:26,090 Speaker 2: he remembered an unnatural silence when the phone call came in, 574 00:30:26,170 --> 00:30:28,930 Speaker 2: except for his father's labored breathing. And then he came 575 00:30:28,970 --> 00:30:31,270 Speaker 2: back in the room and he said, what's happened, dad? 576 00:30:31,290 --> 00:30:36,350 Speaker 2: And his father said, John, a taxi. Taliesin is on fire. 577 00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:39,770 Speaker 3: Right. And if you're not too big on Frank Lloyd Wright, 578 00:30:41,210 --> 00:30:42,860 Speaker 3: you might be like, well, what about the people who 579 00:30:42,890 --> 00:30:46,540 Speaker 3: were murdered? In his defense, he apparently hadn't learned about 580 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:49,140 Speaker 3: that yet. And he learned that there were some gruesome, 581 00:30:49,260 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: grisly murders of a lot of people he cared about 582 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,700 Speaker 3: from reporters who were shouting questions to him as he 583 00:30:55,740 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 3: was going to the train station to take the train 584 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: from Chicago over to Spring Green. 585 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Chicago newspaper headline reads, The End of Lawless Loves. 586 00:31:07,860 --> 00:31:11,870 Speaker 2: You know, sort of a sensational and cold way to 587 00:31:11,910 --> 00:31:13,170 Speaker 2: treat these murders, I think. 588 00:31:13,410 --> 00:31:13,970 Speaker 3: Yeah. 589 00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:15,990 Speaker 2: But they had been, you know, they had been all 590 00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:18,110 Speaker 2: over their affair for years now. 591 00:31:18,610 --> 00:31:21,100 Speaker 3: And then, Chuck, one other thing about Julian Carlton. Have 592 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,900 Speaker 3: you ever been on that site findagrave.com? 593 00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:25,540 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure. Okay. 594 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,060 Speaker 3: So I was on findagrave.com. Part of the purpose for 595 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 3: those who don't know is like to kind of memorialize, 596 00:31:30,770 --> 00:31:33,070 Speaker 3: like leave a tribute or something to the person, the 597 00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:35,970 Speaker 3: dead person. And sometimes it's very sweet, but other times 598 00:31:36,010 --> 00:31:38,510 Speaker 3: it's very awkward. And this was an awkward case because 599 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:42,150 Speaker 3: there was like a little icon that clearly shows up 600 00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:44,860 Speaker 3: on every page on Find a Grave. But it said, 601 00:31:46,020 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 3: what's one thing you'll always remember when you think of Julian? 602 00:31:49,180 --> 00:31:55,530 Speaker 3: I'm like, Probably the axe murder slash arson, the killing 603 00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:56,390 Speaker 3: of seven people. 604 00:31:56,410 --> 00:32:00,310 Speaker 1: That's what I'll always remember. He could really get a 605 00:32:00,370 --> 00:32:01,150 Speaker 1: stain out of a rug. 606 00:32:01,950 --> 00:32:02,930 Speaker 3: Right, with gasoline. 607 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:04,930 Speaker 1: Yeah, very, very good at that. 608 00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: You want to take a break? 609 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,020 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's take a break and we'll talk a little 610 00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: bit about Frank's later years right after this. 611 00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:24,580 Speaker 4: Stuff You Should Know. stuff you should know. 612 00:32:36,050 --> 00:32:39,550 Speaker 2: So this murder really, and of course the fire, really, 613 00:32:39,930 --> 00:32:42,830 Speaker 2: really took a toll on Frank Lloyd Wright. For the 614 00:32:42,890 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: next 20 years, he really struggled with his work. He 615 00:32:48,740 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: struggled for his freedom from the press, obviously. I mean, 616 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:56,540 Speaker 2: he was always in the press, but it was worse 617 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,650 Speaker 2: now than ever. And he did not suffer long romantically, though. 618 00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:05,170 Speaker 2: He took up very quickly with a woman named Maude 619 00:33:05,270 --> 00:33:09,850 Speaker 2: Miriam Hicks Noel. She went by Miriam. And she was 620 00:33:09,890 --> 00:33:14,170 Speaker 2: an artist. She was a morphine addict. She was a fangirl. 621 00:33:15,820 --> 00:33:20,710 Speaker 1: They had a terrible, terrible, abusive relationship. relationship. 622 00:33:20,730 --> 00:33:23,229 Speaker 2: It seems like kind of both ways, like a bit 623 00:33:23,250 --> 00:33:25,370 Speaker 2: of a Sid and Nancy type thing going from everything 624 00:33:25,410 --> 00:33:25,850 Speaker 2: I could read. 625 00:33:26,390 --> 00:33:30,180 Speaker 3: There were terrible people on both sides. Yeah. 626 00:33:30,220 --> 00:33:33,660 Speaker 2: So they, he met when she was very young. She 627 00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 2: said he hadn't been with me 10 minutes before he said, 628 00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:39,380 Speaker 2: you're mine. And they had a 10 year courtship that 629 00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:43,900 Speaker 2: was very, very dysfunctional, very miserable. And when he got 630 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,410 Speaker 2: divorced in 1922 from Kitty, he decided at some point 631 00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:50,700 Speaker 2: to marry I think about a year later, to marry 632 00:33:50,740 --> 00:33:54,980 Speaker 2: Miriam with that old mistake, thinking things would be different 633 00:33:55,060 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 2: once they get married. 634 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,420 Speaker 3: And that's not at all how it went. They ended 635 00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 3: up splitting up, I think, six months later, something like that. 636 00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 3: He said that to oppose her now in the slightest 637 00:34:04,700 --> 00:34:08,990 Speaker 3: degree meant violence. That's how bad the relationship had become. 638 00:34:10,489 --> 00:34:15,450 Speaker 3: So it was– I get the impression from this biographer, 639 00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:17,870 Speaker 3: Paul Hendrickson– The book he wrote, by the way, is 640 00:34:17,910 --> 00:34:22,410 Speaker 3: called Dreams and Furies of Frank Lloyd Wright. And it's 641 00:34:22,430 --> 00:34:27,350 Speaker 3: like 600 pages, I believe. But he does not paint 642 00:34:27,370 --> 00:34:29,390 Speaker 3: a very flattering picture of Miriam at all. 643 00:34:30,989 --> 00:34:34,219 Speaker 1: No, no, not at all. And like I said, they 644 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 1: were not good for each other, it seems like. 645 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,100 Speaker 2: In 1924, after his divorce from Miriam, he gets married 646 00:34:41,140 --> 00:34:47,890 Speaker 2: a third time to Olga Ivana. Her name was Olga Ivana. Lazovich, uh, Hensenberg. 647 00:34:48,650 --> 00:34:51,180 Speaker 2: She was married. She was a dancer. Uh, they met 648 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: at a ballet where she was performing and they, uh, 649 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: actually had another kid. Uh, Frank had a seventh child 650 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: with her, um, a little girl in 1925 and Miriam 651 00:35:03,020 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: comes back though and kind of tries to wreck their 652 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:05,299 Speaker 2: marriage too. 653 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,029 Speaker 3: Yeah. She like when they had their baby, she showed 654 00:35:09,070 --> 00:35:10,930 Speaker 3: up at the hospital and made a scene, which is 655 00:35:10,969 --> 00:35:15,450 Speaker 3: a pretty nasty move. Um, She refused to give him 656 00:35:15,489 --> 00:35:18,750 Speaker 3: a divorce. She, like, would talk to the papers about him. 657 00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:27,989 Speaker 3: She teamed up with Olga's ex-husband or soon-to-be ex-husband. She 658 00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:31,350 Speaker 3: definitely worked against him, but I guess eventually either got 659 00:35:31,410 --> 00:35:33,569 Speaker 3: bored or was bought off or just kind of went 660 00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:37,450 Speaker 3: away because from what I can tell, Olga and Frank 661 00:35:37,570 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 3: managed to carve out a happy married life for themselves 662 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 3: from the divorce. 1920s, yeah, 1924 when they got married onward, 663 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,380 Speaker 3: I guess by the time, once Miriam left the picture, 664 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,700 Speaker 3: they were able to kind of settle in until Frank's 665 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,460 Speaker 3: death in 1959. Yeah. 666 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,830 Speaker 2: And Miriam actually got him arrested at one point under 667 00:35:58,870 --> 00:36:02,670 Speaker 2: the Mann Act, M-A-N-N, which was a law, federal law 668 00:36:02,690 --> 00:36:05,450 Speaker 2: that prohibits transport of women and children across state lines 669 00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:09,790 Speaker 2: for the purposes of debauchery or prostitution. And I'm not 670 00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:13,830 Speaker 2: really sure how that happened it did not stick obviously 671 00:36:13,870 --> 00:36:15,469 Speaker 2: he spent a couple of nights in jail and then 672 00:36:15,530 --> 00:36:18,730 Speaker 2: his the charges were dropped but he went into a 673 00:36:18,930 --> 00:36:24,130 Speaker 2: long dry spell work-wise did not get hired a ton 674 00:36:24,670 --> 00:36:27,739 Speaker 2: over a certain period of time and then from the 675 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,380 Speaker 2: 30s to 59 when he died he did some of 676 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,319 Speaker 2: his best work maybe perhaps of his career Absolutely. 677 00:36:36,530 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 3: It was during that time he did Taliesin West, which, 678 00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 3: like I said, you, me, and I went to. We 679 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: went out to Scottsdale and visited with our friends Blair 680 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 3: and Aaron out there who are Scottsdale peeps. And we 681 00:36:50,060 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 3: went to Taliesin, and it was just– Chuck, dude, have 682 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:53,580 Speaker 3: you been to that one? 683 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: Haven't been to Taliesin West, no. 684 00:36:56,060 --> 00:37:00,219 Speaker 3: It's really, really cool, just the little– just so many 685 00:37:00,300 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 3: details about it. And there's a lot of fountains, which 686 00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 3: is really refreshing in the desert. Um, it's just a 687 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,420 Speaker 3: really great, neat little place for sure. And a little, 688 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,970 Speaker 3: I use that in the absolute wrong way. It's a, 689 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 3: it's pretty big, but it's a, it's a very, it's 690 00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:16,469 Speaker 3: a charming place for sure. Yeah. 691 00:37:16,510 --> 00:37:18,390 Speaker 2: And of course he did the Guggenheim after that. 692 00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:21,130 Speaker 1: Um, he did Falling Water. 693 00:37:21,550 --> 00:37:21,870 Speaker 3: Yeah. 694 00:37:22,010 --> 00:37:24,390 Speaker 1: So it was a, it's a very productive period of 695 00:37:24,430 --> 00:37:27,969 Speaker 1: his life. Um, maybe should we do more in Frank 696 00:37:27,989 --> 00:37:29,170 Speaker 1: Lloyd Wright in the future? Or is this it? 697 00:37:29,710 --> 00:37:32,149 Speaker 3: No, no, we'll, we'll do the, in, in true stuff 698 00:37:32,170 --> 00:37:34,620 Speaker 3: you should know style and just chip away at, at 699 00:37:34,660 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 3: different parts about his life, and then do a full 700 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,459 Speaker 3: biography on him years down the road. 701 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,660 Speaker 1: All right. That sounds good. 702 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,540 Speaker 3: I thought of another place I went, a Frank Lloyd 703 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,260 Speaker 3: Wright place. There's a Florida Southern College, or university, I'm sorry, 704 00:37:45,820 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 3: is a Frank Lloyd Wright Design Campus. It's amazing. 705 00:37:49,219 --> 00:37:51,529 Speaker 1: I'll have to check that out, too. 706 00:37:51,710 --> 00:37:53,750 Speaker 3: You should check it out. There's, like, this really great 707 00:37:54,050 --> 00:37:58,290 Speaker 3: covered walkway that you walk around everywhere, and it's really neat. 708 00:37:58,310 --> 00:38:00,830 Speaker 3: You just feel immersed in Frank Lloyd Wright. It's not just, 709 00:38:01,270 --> 00:38:03,950 Speaker 3: you know, one building or one house. It's a whole campus. 710 00:38:04,469 --> 00:38:04,790 Speaker 1: I love it. 711 00:38:05,770 --> 00:38:07,370 Speaker 3: If you want to know more about Frank Lloyd Wright, 712 00:38:07,410 --> 00:38:10,430 Speaker 3: then just go out after the pandemic ends and start 713 00:38:10,469 --> 00:38:12,910 Speaker 3: visiting some of his houses. And since I said after 714 00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:17,430 Speaker 3: the pandemic ends, let's optimistically go on to listener mail. 715 00:38:20,270 --> 00:38:23,190 Speaker 1: No, no, sir. No listener mail today. 716 00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:25,790 Speaker 2: I think today we should take a little bit of 717 00:38:25,830 --> 00:38:28,710 Speaker 2: an opportunity to talk for a few minutes about our book. 718 00:38:29,550 --> 00:38:32,890 Speaker 2: Everyone's been really patient while we've plugged the presale of 719 00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:35,940 Speaker 2: this book. I think by the time this comes out, 720 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:37,219 Speaker 2: the book will be out. 721 00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:40,660 Speaker 1: Is that right? Is this after the 24th, probably? 722 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,500 Speaker 4: Yeah. 723 00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:43,540 Speaker 3: Jerry can make it so. 724 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,020 Speaker 1: I think it is. But if not, it's just before. 725 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:51,070 Speaker 2: And I finally got the books delivered to my house 726 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,930 Speaker 2: in hardcover edition. And I got to hold it in 727 00:38:53,969 --> 00:38:58,690 Speaker 2: my hand, as have you. And dude, it's great. I'm 728 00:38:58,710 --> 00:39:01,890 Speaker 2: really proud of the work that We did, along with Flatiron. 729 00:39:01,950 --> 00:39:04,070 Speaker 2: Our co-writer, Nils, who's just an amazing dude. 730 00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:08,610 Speaker 3: Yes, and our illustrator, Carly Monardo, who did just an 731 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 3: amazing job throughout the book of bringing just passages that 732 00:39:12,020 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 3: you didn't even think of just suddenly kind of came 733 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:15,379 Speaker 3: to life through her illustrations. 734 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,340 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there's an illustration of Momo. There's an 735 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 2: illustration of my daughter. There are nice little Easter eggs 736 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,990 Speaker 2: in there. We haven't talked a lot about the contents 737 00:39:24,989 --> 00:39:28,380 Speaker 2: of the book. There are, um, we had a lot 738 00:39:28,410 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 2: of fun with the, with the notes at the bottom, 739 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,980 Speaker 2: the footnotes. It's really became kind of a fun part 740 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,420 Speaker 2: of the book. Uh, we mentioned, I don't even have 741 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 2: to lost count how many podcasts we mentioned, but we've 742 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,259 Speaker 2: notate those in the end. 743 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. And there were plenty that we, we missed. Like 744 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 3: I did another, like I shouldn't have done this, but 745 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 3: I did another, like um, like fine tooth comb, like 746 00:39:53,380 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 3: just scrape through of every word in the book. 747 00:39:55,580 --> 00:39:56,399 Speaker 1: Of course you did. 748 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,009 Speaker 3: Um, to see, you know, what, what podcasts we needed 749 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:01,649 Speaker 3: to link to. And I was like, oh man, I 750 00:40:01,690 --> 00:40:04,470 Speaker 3: found like 50 of these so far. And I emailed 751 00:40:04,489 --> 00:40:06,710 Speaker 3: them was like, is it too late to add footnotes 752 00:40:06,790 --> 00:40:09,630 Speaker 3: or podcast footnotes? And they're like, yes, that time has come. 753 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 3: So maybe in the second edition. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can 754 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,259 Speaker 3: we get these reprinted? 755 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: But I have the number here. 756 00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 2: Actually we have, uh, Listed in the book, or referenced 757 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,060 Speaker 2: in the book, we have 274 references to other podcasts. 758 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,350 Speaker 1: But here's a few of the chapters. We did one 759 00:40:27,410 --> 00:40:31,750 Speaker 1: on Murphy beds, one on back masking, one on aging, 760 00:40:33,330 --> 00:40:35,180 Speaker 1: one on donuts. That's a great chapter. 761 00:40:35,420 --> 00:40:36,340 Speaker 3: I love that chapter. 762 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,219 Speaker 1: What else? Kamikaze, demolition derbies. It's like stuff you should 763 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: know in book form. 764 00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,820 Speaker 3: It is definitely. And as we've said, like none of 765 00:40:44,860 --> 00:40:47,460 Speaker 3: these are just like an entire podcast. It's more like, 766 00:40:47,940 --> 00:40:50,919 Speaker 3: you know, we took maybe the history of something or, 767 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,660 Speaker 3: you know, one just one aspect of one of the 768 00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 3: things and kind of dove into it and flesh it 769 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,219 Speaker 3: out like that. So hopefully we'll be able to turn 770 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,660 Speaker 3: these into full size like podcast episodes one day. That's 771 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 3: kind of our intent. But even if we don't, I 772 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 3: think the book like really covers them in an enjoyable way. Totally. 773 00:41:08,469 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: Jack Kevorkian. 774 00:41:09,989 --> 00:41:10,890 Speaker 3: That was a good one, too. 775 00:41:11,250 --> 00:41:13,290 Speaker 1: Keeping Up with the Joneses. That's one of my favorite ones. 776 00:41:13,570 --> 00:41:17,950 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. There's like 27 just amazing chapters in there. 777 00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:21,910 Speaker 3: Each one's better than the last. And then astoundingly, it 778 00:41:21,950 --> 00:41:24,190 Speaker 3: starts back over and somehow chapter one is better than 779 00:41:24,210 --> 00:41:26,489 Speaker 3: chapter 27. 780 00:41:27,590 --> 00:41:28,950 Speaker 2: But, you know, if you haven't bought it yet, I 781 00:41:28,989 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: highly encourage you to. It makes a great gift. even 782 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:34,970 Speaker 2: if the person doesn't even know who we are. It's 783 00:41:35,130 --> 00:41:38,150 Speaker 2: in the great tradition, I think, of the great bathroom readers. 784 00:41:38,570 --> 00:41:40,049 Speaker 2: You can pick it up at any point in the 785 00:41:40,090 --> 00:41:42,830 Speaker 2: book and read any chapter. And it's just a lot 786 00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:45,010 Speaker 2: of fun. My daughter even likes it because of the pictures. 787 00:41:45,630 --> 00:41:47,770 Speaker 2: And she loves looking at the back and going, there's 788 00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 2: you and Josh. 789 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:49,860 Speaker 3: I know. 790 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: It's very cute. 791 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 3: It is cute. So one other thing I want to 792 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 3: say is like, we really appreciate you guys who have 793 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,739 Speaker 3: already pre-ordered the book or who will buy the book. 794 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,540 Speaker 3: We bought the audio book that's available to you. But 795 00:42:03,620 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 3: if you can't, if you're like, I just don't have 796 00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:07,210 Speaker 3: the money right now or I don't feel like spending 797 00:42:07,230 --> 00:42:09,210 Speaker 3: the money, I just like the podcast, that's fine too. 798 00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:12,270 Speaker 3: Like we're not mad at you. But we appreciate the 799 00:42:12,310 --> 00:42:15,549 Speaker 3: people who have supported us by buying the book. So 800 00:42:15,590 --> 00:42:17,870 Speaker 3: thank you very much to everybody who has or will 801 00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:20,650 Speaker 3: buy our book because that's very kind of you and 802 00:42:20,690 --> 00:42:21,610 Speaker 3: it means a lot to us. 803 00:42:22,350 --> 00:42:24,529 Speaker 1: And you can look forward to a kids version coming soon. 804 00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:29,130 Speaker 3: Yes. Right? Right. Yeah, eventually we're taking the same 27 805 00:42:29,130 --> 00:42:33,609 Speaker 3: chapters and kiddifying it, but without being patronizing. So that'll 806 00:42:33,630 --> 00:42:33,850 Speaker 3: be a. 807 00:42:33,810 --> 00:42:34,590 Speaker 1: Really cool book. 808 00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:39,089 Speaker 3: No, we're taking the swear words out. The chapter on 809 00:42:39,130 --> 00:42:41,290 Speaker 3: Mezcal didn't make the cut in the kids book. 810 00:42:41,550 --> 00:42:41,870 Speaker 1: I know. 811 00:42:42,590 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 2: I think, I mean, I think this book is appropriate 812 00:42:44,660 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 2: for kids as young as like probably 12 years old. 813 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,940 Speaker 2: It's not like it's, it's not like it's dirty or anything. It's, 814 00:42:52,340 --> 00:42:54,100 Speaker 2: it might just be a little advanced for younger kids, 815 00:42:54,140 --> 00:42:55,710 Speaker 2: but we're going to, We're going to make sure that 816 00:42:55,770 --> 00:42:57,109 Speaker 2: the younger kids have their version too. 817 00:42:57,390 --> 00:43:01,259 Speaker 3: Yes. It'll make every 12-year-old who reads the adult book 818 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 3: really want Mezcal. 819 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 2: So anyway, thanks to everyone who's bought it. It's called 820 00:43:05,300 --> 00:43:08,380 Speaker 2: Stuff You Should Know, an incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things. 821 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,380 Speaker 1: You can get it wherever books are sold. 822 00:43:10,420 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 2: Of course, we encourage you to buy from independent bookstores 823 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,020 Speaker 2: if you can to try and keep them in business. 824 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 3: Yep, for sure. I guess that's it, huh? 825 00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:18,779 Speaker 1: That's it. 826 00:43:19,210 --> 00:43:22,390 Speaker 3: Okay, well, thanks, everybody, for hearing us out about our 827 00:43:22,469 --> 00:43:25,430 Speaker 3: book spiel. And if you bought the book or the audiobook, 828 00:43:25,489 --> 00:43:28,549 Speaker 3: thank you. If you can't, again, we love you anyway. 829 00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:31,259 Speaker 3: So don't worry about it. And if you want to 830 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 3: get in touch with us, you can send us an 831 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 3: email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com. 832 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For 833 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,009 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, 834 00:43:47,180 --> 00:43:48,940 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.