Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we mentioned
Speaker 1: fall is underway, which means things like football, kids back
Speaker 1: at school, the new round of Supreme Court cases. There's
Speaker 1: a lot going on, and I believe later on this
Speaker 1: week there's another hearing by the January six Committee that's
Speaker 1: investigating the US Capital attack and the role that groups
Speaker 1: such as the far right group known as the Proud
Speaker 1: Boys played in the takeover and protest of the US capital.
Speaker 1: So perfect. Next guest, Yeah, we're very pleased to have
Speaker 1: with u. Andy Campbell. He's an investigative reporter for the
Speaker 1: Huffington's Post. Huff Post my former place of work, and
Speaker 1: Andy a former colleague of mine. He's also the author
Speaker 1: of the new book it's called We Are Proud Boys,
Speaker 1: How a right wing street gang ushered in a new
Speaker 1: era of American extremism. And he joins us right now
Speaker 1: in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. And you good to
Speaker 1: have you with us. Congratulations on the book. So happy
Speaker 1: to be here and good to see you again town. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's good to see you as well. Um, take us
Speaker 1: back to here, UM and the the genesis of the
Speaker 1: Proud Boys goes back before. But as you write in
Speaker 1: your book, was a very important moment for the Proud Boys.
Speaker 1: Right during during Donald Trump's rise, a reactionary talk show
Speaker 1: host named Gavin McGinnis who was also co founder of
Speaker 1: Vice Media. UM. He sort of gets kicked out of
Speaker 1: of Vice Media for his awful, awful rhetoric with the company, UM,
Speaker 1: and he takes his audience with him, starts his own
Speaker 1: show called The Gavin McGinnis Show, UM and and doubles
Speaker 1: down on this misogynist, bigoted rhetoric. And to his audience,
Speaker 1: he's pelting them with with bigoted tenants. UM. One of
Speaker 1: his tenants was to quote venerate the housewife. He thought
Speaker 1: that women and women in the workplace were responsible for
Speaker 1: the end of masculinity. He also gave them a tenant
Speaker 1: to accept that white men were responsible for the success
Speaker 1: of Western culture. So he's pelting them with these sort
Speaker 1: of white supremassist ideologies. And he takes that audience and
Speaker 1: and decides, I'm going to activate these guys. I'm going
Speaker 1: to build them into a gang. And he called them
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys, and he told them, you are going
Speaker 1: to take Trump and the GOP's grievances and you're gonna
Speaker 1: get out there and do what the krusty old hats
Speaker 1: of the GOP won't do and fight them out in
Speaker 1: the street. And you know, six years later. Uh, They've
Speaker 1: been involved in so many acts of political violence over
Speaker 1: the years. I mean, these guys, um were involved in
Speaker 1: Unite the Right attacks in cities across the country, and
Speaker 1: of course, uh their outsized role in the January six insurrection.
Speaker 1: UM so his small time gang that started here in
Speaker 1: New York City, uh came to be known as the
Speaker 1: national Architects of of January six. And he helped me
Speaker 1: out here because I feel like extreamist groups have always
Speaker 1: been with us, right, uh, in our US culture, and
Speaker 1: yet I feel like you didn't necessarily hear about them
Speaker 1: or you know, and this is a group that's out there,
Speaker 1: and you think about the impact that they've had on
Speaker 1: our culture and our society. What's different. Well, the Proud
Speaker 1: Boys were smart. After the Unite the Right rallies of Charlottesville,
Speaker 1: which they had a hand in, UM, they realized that
Speaker 1: that just being uh you know, sort of a fighting
Speaker 1: hate group wasn't gonna last very long. A lot of
Speaker 1: the groups that that took part in the Unite the
Speaker 1: Right rallies dissolved immediately after that because people were like
Speaker 1: those guys are Nazis. And the Proud Boys got a
Speaker 1: new leader named Enrique Tario, who was very well connected
Speaker 1: in the political scene in Florida, uh so connected in
Speaker 1: fact that he was friends with Roger Stone, Trump's top confidant,
Speaker 1: um Enriquetario told me he realized we needed to become
Speaker 1: a more political machine if we're going to position what
Speaker 1: we want to do, which is the violence right as
Speaker 1: as something you know, regular Americans on the right we'll
Speaker 1: see as patriotic, as as defenders of Trump against what
Speaker 1: they describe as the leftist threat in the street. And
Speaker 1: so he turned them into a more political monster and
Speaker 1: positioned what they do as protected speech and and and patriotism.
Speaker 1: Where are you seeing the rhetoric that you write about
Speaker 1: in this book seep into American political discourse inside Washington
Speaker 1: d C. You hear a politicians speak and are there
Speaker 1: cases where you say that is something that I've heard
Speaker 1: from Gavin McGinnis. I think Gavin McGuinness echoes the GOP
Speaker 1: and and and vice versa. I mean, Gavin pushed uh,
Speaker 1: anti immigration, anti Muslim rhetoric and and what he wants
Speaker 1: them to do and what they have done in the
Speaker 1: years since Gavin has kind of stepped aside, UH, is
Speaker 1: that they take the GOP and and Fox New his
Speaker 1: rhetoric as marching orders. So, for example, over the summer,
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys have been going to drag Queen's story
Speaker 1: hours across the country and showing up to intimidate people.
Speaker 1: They showed up to an event in Nevada at a
Speaker 1: public library that had been going on for years. Um.
Speaker 1: But one of them brought a rifle and started making
Speaker 1: their way toward the door. Parents and children screamed and
Speaker 1: and and ran. Uh. This is happening at a rapid clip. Um.
Speaker 1: But but it's no surprise that Fox News all summer
Speaker 1: has been railing against lgbt Q, against drag queens, um
Speaker 1: and you know, characterizing them as as groomers, as coming
Speaker 1: for your children. And so it mirrors the rhetoric where
Speaker 1: the Proud Boys are looking at uh, you know, Fox
Speaker 1: News and Donald Trump and saying this is what we
Speaker 1: need to go out there and put violence to andy.
Speaker 1: When when you and I were working together at Hugh Post.
Speaker 1: You were not writing about UH, the Proud Boys. You
Speaker 1: were not writing about American extremism. How did you come
Speaker 1: to start writing about it? And why write this book?
Speaker 1: I was a street level crime reporter back when we
Speaker 1: worked together, and you know, I covered acts of violence
Speaker 1: across the country during Trump's rise, those acts of violence
Speaker 1: made their way into politics. Through the rise of Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: we saw any number of extremist groups coming together under
Speaker 1: the banner of Trump thinking that they had an ally
Speaker 1: in the White House. And the ones that stood out
Speaker 1: to me were the Proud Boys. Because these guys wanted
Speaker 1: to be lionized for their violence, they wanted to talk
Speaker 1: to the press, they were proud of what they did.
Speaker 1: UM and so you know, focusing on them turned out
Speaker 1: to be a good bet because now they orbit so
Speaker 1: many acts of political violence, including January six, and so
Speaker 1: as January six was happening, and as they continued their
Speaker 1: violence despite a lot of their leaders going to jail,
Speaker 1: I realized that this is the warning shot that we
Speaker 1: need to write the going forward. This cycle of political violence,
Speaker 1: held aloft by the GOP and and media, UH is
Speaker 1: going to continue. And so that's why I wrote it,
Speaker 1: is there a typical demographic of an individual who is
Speaker 1: a proud boy. Proud boys are of a lot of ideologies.
Speaker 1: There's neo Nazis and people of color within them, but
Speaker 1: the majority of them are are white guys who are
Speaker 1: angry and want to fight out Trump's grievances. How much
Speaker 1: is also that they feel like they've just been left
Speaker 1: behind in this economy. I think there's I think there's
Speaker 1: an element of that, but again it's the violence that
Speaker 1: they're aiming for through those grievances. You know, as I
Speaker 1: was thinking about you coming on listening to you talk,
Speaker 1: I mean, is this our ku Klux Klan in terms
Speaker 1: of our times? Ku Klux Klan? Is that how we
Speaker 1: need to think about it? There are absolute comparisons to
Speaker 1: be made. I mean, this is a force that is
Speaker 1: racist at its core. They've made inroads with politics, and
Speaker 1: they've made inroads with the American public. But with the clan.
Speaker 1: You have to remember, the clan didn't lose power because
Speaker 1: people rebuffed them. The clan lost power because so much
Speaker 1: of the American public shared that ideology that they weren't
Speaker 1: really needed anymore. And and that's the fear going forward
Speaker 1: with these guys is that uh, you know, enough people
Speaker 1: are going to see political violence as a normalized option
Speaker 1: in politics. Uh, that the Proud Boys may not be needed.
Speaker 1: But it's not all just white members, right, All Proud
Speaker 1: Boys are not just white. I get asked about this
Speaker 1: a lot. And you know, the Proud Boys, first of all,
Speaker 1: their racists at their core, right, Gavin Gavin gave them
Speaker 1: a tenant that they have to accept if they join.
Speaker 1: Anybody can join, but they have to accept that white
Speaker 1: men are responsible for the success of the West. And
Speaker 1: and there are people of color. There are also neo
Speaker 1: Nazis and the Proud Boys, but they are all gathering
Speaker 1: under this banner of getting to fight out their rage
Speaker 1: in the street against the left and against Trump's opponents,
Speaker 1: and that can create strange bedfellows. Just just last weekend,
Speaker 1: Nazis joined Proud Boys in Texas, UH for for a
Speaker 1: Drag Queen Story our event they were protesting. And and
Speaker 1: also on top of that, the very few people of
Speaker 1: color that are members of the Proud Boys are held
Speaker 1: aloft constantly by the Proud Boys as evidence that they're
Speaker 1: they're not racist, they're not white supremacist, and that has
Speaker 1: served to put a veil in front of them when
Speaker 1: they're confusing the media and law enforcement. Hey, Andy, over
Speaker 1: the summer back in June, we saw footage emerged from
Speaker 1: Idaho about the Patriot Front gathering to protest an lgbt
Speaker 1: Q event. And I'm wondering where the relationship is between
Speaker 1: Patriot Front, Proud Boys, and other sort of right wing extremists.
Speaker 1: Help us kind of untangled that web, right that this
Speaker 1: is a this is a machine and a cycle of
Speaker 1: of extremism that we're seeing in front of us right now.
Speaker 1: For example, Q and on conspiracy theorists and Alex Jones
Speaker 1: type plant to see that satanic pedophiles in the form
Speaker 1: of drag queens are coming for your children. Uh. Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and Fox News sanitize and grow that seed for
Speaker 1: their audiences, push it out to millions of people, and
Speaker 1: then the extremist street groups like the Proud Boys, Patriot Front,
Speaker 1: oath Keepers who are also big on January six, come
Speaker 1: to burn it all down. And so the Proud Boys,
Speaker 1: I see them as uh, both normalizers of political violence
Speaker 1: but also the pointy end of this extremism machine. Now,
Speaker 1: if you lop off one of those parts, there is
Speaker 1: somebody they're already ready to take take it on. And
Speaker 1: and the scary part about what we're seeing now is
Speaker 1: that everyday Americans are joining these extremist groups in the streets.
Speaker 1: And so you are seeing how big are they? I
Speaker 1: would say, in there in the you know, five thousand
Speaker 1: to ten thousand range. They may have been bigger at
Speaker 1: one point. But but you know, people ask, well, why
Speaker 1: should I worry about them if if they're not going
Speaker 1: to knock on my or one day. They haven't been
Speaker 1: known to do door knocks. But their their threat lies
Speaker 1: in their ability to coalition build um. They can gather many,
Speaker 1: many extremists and everyday Americans together under one banner wherever
Speaker 1: they are in the country. Are you afraid doing this
Speaker 1: at any time? Because you were embedded right within? I mean,
Speaker 1: certainly writing for a tough post, I've I've gone. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been in face to face with proud boys over
Speaker 1: the years. Originally, they weren't a threat to me because
Speaker 1: I'm a white guy, and and they don't think that
Speaker 1: they can intimidate me. It's true, and it's it's but
Speaker 1: now I have gotten married to a fellow extremism reporter
Speaker 1: and and now that she's in the picture, we have
Speaker 1: received some threats because they see a woman or you know,
Speaker 1: whenever they see a person of color, they know that
Speaker 1: that they can add an intimidation factor in there, so
Speaker 1: not before maybe a little bit. Now, can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about your reporting and how you went
Speaker 1: around about reporting this over the last few years. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we were we were covering their rallies. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of from day one. A lot of
Speaker 1: them happened in Portland, Oregon, you know, a liberal town
Speaker 1: where where they believe that they could kick the hornets
Speaker 1: nest in terms of leftism, and and they would show
Speaker 1: up um for you know, maga events is what they
Speaker 1: called them, wait for leftists to come out and then
Speaker 1: and then track them down and beat them into submission. Uh.
Speaker 1: This was ongoing, you know, and we were shouting it
Speaker 1: from the hilltops over and over. But I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think it was until uh, you know, Donald Trump
Speaker 1: sits on stage and says stand back, stand by at
Speaker 1: the presidential debate in that most Americans knew about their violence.
Speaker 1: What was that moment for for you as a reporter
Speaker 1: who covered this? I mean, did that legitimize the Proud
Speaker 1: Boys movement. I mean it certainly made them feel that way.
Speaker 1: You can argue that Trump didn't intend to activate the
Speaker 1: Proud Boys with that, and he was specifically asked to
Speaker 1: disavow them, and he did not. He blamed the left
Speaker 1: and then said old boys, stand back and stand by.
Speaker 1: But but the Proud Boys took it as marching orders,
Speaker 1: and and they started gearing up for what they called
Speaker 1: on a blog post civil war, their last stand for
Speaker 1: Trump on January six and and Trump's inability to rebuff
Speaker 1: them is just indicative of the GOP's embrace of them.
Speaker 1: I spoke to Roger Stone, uh, sat down with him
Speaker 1: last year. Uh and and he told me, admitted to
Speaker 1: me that he'd been advising the Proud Boys through their
Speaker 1: political ambitions for years. Andy, before we let you go. Um,
Speaker 1: there is sort of a silver line into this entire coverage.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you met your wife, who is a
Speaker 1: fellow reporter on extremism. You met her at a at
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi rally. Yeah, Unite the Right. Uh in
Speaker 1: sen we were both reporting for competing publications. Uh and
Speaker 1: and we are you know from that day. Just recently
Speaker 1: we got married in France. And uh, you know love
Speaker 1: it a Nazi rally, a hopeless place. Uh, the story
Speaker 1: you can tell your grandkids. Hey, just quickly, um thirty
Speaker 1: forty seconds here, based on your reporting, based what you
Speaker 1: learned about the Proud Boys, is there some conclusion as
Speaker 1: the January six Committee continues to do its investigation about
Speaker 1: some connection between the Trump administration, the White House at
Speaker 1: the time, and the Proud Boys so quickly, Well, not
Speaker 1: only did Roger Stone tell me he'd been advising them
Speaker 1: for years, but I'm interested to see their sedition trial
Speaker 1: coming up this winter because Proud Boys have already agreed
Speaker 1: to testify against their own and we may learn a
Speaker 1: lot about their relationship to Donald Trump and and the
Speaker 1: people around him. Certainly they've been doing security for top
Speaker 1: level media pundits and politicians. So we're going to learn
Speaker 1: a lot this winter. Well, we learned a lot in
Speaker 1: talking to you and through your book, Andy Campbell, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. Investigative reporter at have post his book.
Speaker 1: Check it out. We are Proud Boys, how a right
Speaker 1: wing street gang ushered in a new era of American extremism.
Speaker 1: If you missed it, it'll be on our podcast and
Speaker 1: in our weekend show