Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. And now I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to be speaking with my guest, Vanessa van Edwards. Vanessa
Speaker 1: is a self described recovering, boring, and awkward person who
Speaker 1: performs research on human behavior to figure out what makes
Speaker 1: people tick. The latest book, Captivate the Science of Succeeding
Speaker 1: with People, provide simple ways to improve your social intelligence
Speaker 1: and level up your relationships. This should be a very
Speaker 1: practical and informative episode. Vanessa, it's so great to have
Speaker 1: you on the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: just so many things to discuss with you, but I
Speaker 1: want to like talk about I bet there's just this
Speaker 1: huge transformation in you because you're right about how you
Speaker 1: were an awkward kid and that's just like really hard
Speaker 1: to see like talking to you, So can you maybe
Speaker 1: take me back to like, if you don't mind calling
Speaker 1: back to your child, of course, yeah, yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: you know it's funny. I for a long time tried
Speaker 1: to bury that part of my life, and then I
Speaker 1: realized that through writing and through thinking about it, actually
Speaker 1: the more I talked about it, the easier it got,
Speaker 1: so I'd be happy to dive into those awkward years.
Speaker 1: So I was. Actually I joke that I'm a recovering
Speaker 1: awkward person. And as a kid, I think it came
Speaker 1: because my safe spaces weren't where the other kids were,
Speaker 1: so like recess, you know, the playground just terrified me.
Speaker 1: But I love the classroom, whereas like birthday parties, chuck
Speaker 1: e cheese, Oh my goodness, nightmares in the ballpit, nightmares
Speaker 1: in the ball but you know, chadding with teachers or
Speaker 1: having like one on one play dates was great. And
Speaker 1: I think that even back then, I didn't realize it
Speaker 1: at the time that I was not an introvert or
Speaker 1: an extrovert. I was sort of that in between that ambivert.
Speaker 1: And I think that we're now discovering that most people
Speaker 1: are in this in between phase of an ambrovert. Yeah,
Speaker 1: most people are right, Statistically, that's absolutely right. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: you know what's funny is we So that was something
Speaker 1: that I kind of stumbled upon later and when I
Speaker 1: started reading about the research on amber version, we put
Speaker 1: a little quiz up on our website just because I
Speaker 1: was curious, you know, I said, Hey, if you heard
Speaker 1: the word introvert or extrovert and it's never sounded like you,
Speaker 1: take this quiz and see what you think. And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, maybe we'll get a couple hundred people
Speaker 1: to take it. We have had something like twenty six
Speaker 1: thousand people take that little quiz, and of course most
Speaker 1: of them end up being amberverts. Of course it's a
Speaker 1: little bit self selecting because people who are taking at
Speaker 1: think that they are. But I was shocked at how
Speaker 1: many people feel this is a pain point where socially,
Speaker 1: it's not that they are completely afraid of social interactions,
Speaker 1: but they have to be able to refuel in the
Speaker 1: right areas. Yeah, that's just that's part of being human,
Speaker 1: isn't it like having to recharge every now and then?
Speaker 1: Do you know any pure extrovert that like twenty four
Speaker 1: to seven has to yak ata yak not one that
Speaker 1: I believe, you know, I know people who say that
Speaker 1: they're extroverts, but I think that also, you know, they
Speaker 1: might consider recharge time like even driving over to an
Speaker 1: event or getting ready, that's even recharge time in itself.
Speaker 1: And I think that you're right when you said, isn't
Speaker 1: that what life is about? I think? And not to
Speaker 1: get too deep too quickly, but you know, people send
Speaker 1: me all kinds of secrets and I am honored by them,
Speaker 1: Like people send me all kinds of emails about social
Speaker 1: interactions and their history and their relationships, and I'm always
Speaker 1: shocked by the same thread, which is that people are
Speaker 1: really just trying to figure themselves out, and then they're
Speaker 1: also trying to figure out how they relate to others.
Speaker 1: And that seems to be what plagues us and what
Speaker 1: fascinates us and what dazzles us. It seems to be
Speaker 1: for everyone, and that's kind of what drives me with
Speaker 1: my work as well, and I'm think with your work also. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it absolutely drives me in very much. When we were
Speaker 1: very much a social species, but as this kid, as
Speaker 1: this awkward kid at Chuck E Cheese, you felt as
Speaker 1: though like you were an observer. Did you feel like
Speaker 1: you and like the roots of who you are now
Speaker 1: could be seen as a kid like did you want
Speaker 1: to like? Were you an immense people watcher? Oh? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: You know. In my family situation, my parents were divorced
Speaker 1: very young and I had to switch houses every Monday night.
Speaker 1: And I think that when I entered into a new house,
Speaker 1: I never knew what I was entering into. I didn't
Speaker 1: know what the moods were. You know, I hadn't seen
Speaker 1: my siblings in a week, and I had to vary
Speaker 1: very quickly. At the time, I wouldn't have called it this,
Speaker 1: but now I call it this. I had to read
Speaker 1: people and I had to speed read them. I had
Speaker 1: to very quickly diagnose what did I miss, what were
Speaker 1: the dynamics, what was everyone's mood? And where do I
Speaker 1: fit in this week? And that was a skill that
Speaker 1: I think now I try to break it down into
Speaker 1: a science of what is speed reading and why does
Speaker 1: it work? So yeah, I think that that observer piece
Speaker 1: saved me a little bit as a kid speed reading.
Speaker 1: Are you really good at speed dating? Because you can
Speaker 1: really do good job speed reading. I haven't dated in
Speaker 1: so many years, my friend, I would not know I
Speaker 1: might be terrible at it. Now that it's been so long.
Speaker 1: The funny thing is, I like the idea of speed dating,
Speaker 1: and I've run a couple of workshops where we've run
Speaker 1: experiments around speed networking, which is kind of similar, I
Speaker 1: mean a little bit. It's business dating, and the patterns
Speaker 1: that we found in the experiments we did around speed
Speaker 1: networking of how quickly we read people and how we
Speaker 1: engage people quickly are fascinating. So maybe if I use
Speaker 1: that science, I could dive back into speed dating if
Speaker 1: I had to. Maybe, or you could. I could totally
Speaker 1: see after reading your book and your kind of personality,
Speaker 1: I could see you having your own reality TV show.
Speaker 1: Have you thought about that? Oh, I'm sure you know.
Speaker 1: I've been approached by a couple of TV companies. Oh goodness.
Speaker 1: But I really really have a strong value system around
Speaker 1: the kind of edutainment I produce. And there's a fine line,
Speaker 1: I think, between reality television and entertaining educational television, and
Speaker 1: so I've never found the right fit. I've thought about it,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I don't know that that seems
Speaker 1: like a scary can of worms to open. Fair enough, Well,
Speaker 1: you do good enough with what you do, and I
Speaker 1: want to dive in a little bit to some of
Speaker 1: the science that you talk about. You've really read a
Speaker 1: lot of articles, and then you have your own lab.
Speaker 1: Was that right where you do studies? Well, how do
Speaker 1: you know how to do studies? Do you have a
Speaker 1: degree in psychology? I did my undergraduate Emory and I
Speaker 1: studied sociology there, so I did a lot of quantitative
Speaker 1: and qualitative research for my thesis. We do very very
Speaker 1: simple experimental designs, and typically we partner with a researcher
Speaker 1: or a data analyst to help us make sure that
Speaker 1: we are doing it correctly. And they're usually very basic.
Speaker 1: Usually it's one basic hypothesis with one variable at a time.
Speaker 1: You know, they're not super advanced. Our big thing that
Speaker 1: I try to go for, since we're not with an
Speaker 1: academic institution and since I don't have a psychology degree,
Speaker 1: is big data, big numbers. So if I partner with
Speaker 1: a researcher and say, oh my gosh, Vanessa, if you
Speaker 1: could get ten thousand people to answer this study, we
Speaker 1: could really see some big patterns. Here's the puzzle we're
Speaker 1: looking at. I'm like, great, Like, let's partner up. Let's
Speaker 1: set up this experimental design and so it's a little
Speaker 1: bit of a different take on the traditional academic model
Speaker 1: of you know, an equals thirty six college seniors. I mean,
Speaker 1: we look for patterns in that, so it's a little
Speaker 1: bit more citizen science y and the big data. Wow.
Speaker 1: Can we be friends ten thousand people? Wow? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: we're already friends. Oh my gosh. If you ever anyone
Speaker 1: listening Scott, if you have any ideas for puzzles. We
Speaker 1: get all of our ideas for research experiments, usually either
Speaker 1: from readers or from a big database that we have. So,
Speaker 1: for example, one of our research experiments is on Ted talks.
Speaker 1: Why because we have this amazing database of free Ted
Speaker 1: videos with viewcounts exposed. So anytime you have an idea
Speaker 1: for an experiment, you let me know. I've got lots
Speaker 1: of ideas. Here's one idea, not an idea, but I
Speaker 1: have a question for you that you don't talk about
Speaker 1: in the book. But why does it seem like women
Speaker 1: like bad boys? Oh god, yes, okay, I really want
Speaker 1: to study this, like in great depth. This would be
Speaker 1: a fascinating topic and I do have some hypotheses on this,
Speaker 1: so you're right. I didn't talk about this in the book.
Speaker 1: But I think that when we're talking about relationships, and
Speaker 1: something I touched on the book was something called resource theory,
Speaker 1: which is basically that all of us as we interact
Speaker 1: are exchanging resources. A lot of people kind of are like,
Speaker 1: you know, that's such a horrible way to look at humanity,
Speaker 1: but it's a fact that when we are in a relationship,
Speaker 1: we are looking for something and we are giving something.
Speaker 1: And so what the resource theory says is that there
Speaker 1: are six resources, and we kind of have one that
Speaker 1: we want the most and one that we give away
Speaker 1: the most. And I think that with bad Boys is
Speaker 1: that it's typically the combination of women who are seeking
Speaker 1: the resource of love. So they really want that feeling
Speaker 1: of belonging, they really want that feeling of acceptance, and
Speaker 1: they're paired with someone who doesn't give it back. So
Speaker 1: there's this draw to this person doesn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of love, but I can find a way to get it.
Speaker 1: I'm going to either fix them or I'm going to
Speaker 1: tap into that untapped resource. I think that's something about
Speaker 1: this hidden resource they can't get to. No. I mean,
Speaker 1: I definitely think that the sort of economic supply demand
Speaker 1: model applies there. But you think logically, you know, like
Speaker 1: why waste your time with that when you can get
Speaker 1: it easily from more securely attached mail m Yeah, And
Speaker 1: what's crazy about it is that, unfortunately, and I'm sure
Speaker 1: you read the letterature on this, when we look at
Speaker 1: like attachment theory, for example, I'm not sure I think
Speaker 1: that fall into patterns not because they're good for us,
Speaker 1: because they're comfortable. And by the way, this is something
Speaker 1: that I try to challenge myself with a lot, which
Speaker 1: is am I doing this because it's comfortable for me?
Speaker 1: Or am I doing this because it's good for me?
Speaker 1: And it's very hard to know the difference between the two.
Speaker 1: I mean, asking yourself in the first place is hard,
Speaker 1: but I think knowing the difference between the two is
Speaker 1: one of our biggest challenges as humans. Well. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just imagine that there are a lot of situations
Speaker 1: where it's neither comfortable nor good for you, but you
Speaker 1: still feel hell to do it. You know, like, it
Speaker 1: can't be all that comfortable when someone is like locking
Speaker 1: you out emotionally, right, that can be that's true. Maybe
Speaker 1: there's a third one in there, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I'm just brainstorming out loud. Maybe the third one is like,
Speaker 1: am I learning from this? So maybe it's like this
Speaker 1: isn't good for me and it's not comfortable, but this person,
Speaker 1: you know, critiquing me or this abusive relationship, I'm learning
Speaker 1: my boundaries, I'm learning my needs, I'm learning my value system.
Speaker 1: So maybe there's that third in there that's like somewhere
Speaker 1: in between, and you decide if you stay in it,
Speaker 1: it's bad for you because you're enabling this bad behavior,
Speaker 1: and if you leave it, it's good for you because
Speaker 1: you're like, yes, like I set up a boundary. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is really interesting. I want to test that. There's
Speaker 1: got to be I want to look at like like
Speaker 1: ten thousand people individual difference predictors of women that are
Speaker 1: explicitly attracted to bad boys. Ooh, you know, I happen
Speaker 1: to have a way we could test this, So a preliminary,
Speaker 1: preliminary kind of research into this could be One thing
Speaker 1: that we test a lot in our lab is we
Speaker 1: have a you know, the Big five, the kind of
Speaker 1: standard personality test that the forty four standard questions that
Speaker 1: people use to test personality. We have a huge database
Speaker 1: of people who'd taken that forty four question questionnaire just
Speaker 1: to test themselves, and we watch the research. I'm always
Speaker 1: curious what kinds of numbers are popping up in the
Speaker 1: general population and how it relates to gender or location,
Speaker 1: because we also track like basic demographic info. It would
Speaker 1: be very interesting to ask women, and this would only
Speaker 1: be women who are willing to self claim this, but
Speaker 1: it'd be interesting to ask women in a personality questionnaire,
Speaker 1: are you attracted to the typical bad boy? And if
Speaker 1: they answer yes or maybe it's on the scale of
Speaker 1: one to five, does that correlate to a personality traits?
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a facet of personality, like for example, a
Speaker 1: hypothesis could be that if a woman was high in agreeableness,
Speaker 1: and agreeableness is you know, how you interact with people,
Speaker 1: how much you cooperate, if you default to yes or no.
Speaker 1: If a woman was high in agreeableness, maybe she would
Speaker 1: be more attracted to bad boys because she has trouble
Speaker 1: with boundaries, because that's a part that's a facet of
Speaker 1: her personality. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. And
Speaker 1: I was definitely thinking of the Big five as part
Speaker 1: of the individual differences package. But also psychopathology would be
Speaker 1: interesting to look at early childhood instability a whole. I
Speaker 1: could put together the whole battery. But this really is
Speaker 1: a diversion, isn't it from your book? Yes? I love
Speaker 1: science DIVERSI those are my favorite. Well, thanks for letting
Speaker 1: me go there. What your book is really about is
Speaker 1: answering the question how can I succeed with people? Now?
Speaker 1: What does it mean if I've succeeded with a person? Like,
Speaker 1: how do I know that I've succeeded with a person? Ah? Okay,
Speaker 1: that's a really good question success when it comes to people.
Speaker 1: I don't like treating people as a means to an end.
Speaker 1: I usually like treating people as an end in themselves.
Speaker 1: You know. So I'm wondering what that means. Yes, So
Speaker 1: how I define success, at least in this book is
Speaker 1: when you have the desire to level up a relationship.
Speaker 1: So one thing I talk about a lot and I
Speaker 1: think about is the different levels of relationship. And maybe
Speaker 1: this is just how I think. I tend to be
Speaker 1: a very black and white I love frameworks and levels.
Speaker 1: But if you think about relationships like levels, and you
Speaker 1: think like, okay, first there's strangers, and there's acquaintances. Then
Speaker 1: there's even a step before friends. Maybe it's warm acquaintances,
Speaker 1: then friends, then best friends, maybe partners. The list goes up.
Speaker 1: I think that when you are successful with people, there's
Speaker 1: two things that happen. A If you want to level
Speaker 1: up a relationship with someone, you have the ability to
Speaker 1: do so. So you know how to connect with them,
Speaker 1: bond with them, ask the right questions, make time with them.
Speaker 1: To be able to turn a stranger into a colleague,
Speaker 1: or a colleague into a partner, friend into a partner,
Speaker 1: you're able to level up. Second is that when you're
Speaker 1: leveling up, you feel like there's an equality there. So
Speaker 1: I think that that's in a way that we can
Speaker 1: succeed in succeeding with people. That's a very measurable way
Speaker 1: to talk about success. That's interesting. So that sounds like
Speaker 1: a game leveling up, you know. I'll actually, you're right.
Speaker 1: I think that it does sound a little bit like
Speaker 1: a game. I agree with you, that does sound like
Speaker 1: a game. I don't think that a game is too
Speaker 1: far off. And here's what I mean. I hope that
Speaker 1: it doesn't offend anyone. Yeah, what I mean is that
Speaker 1: I used to think of relationships very seriously. Where I
Speaker 1: was very serious about what people thought about me. I
Speaker 1: wanted to impress everyone. I took every interaction very like concretely,
Speaker 1: I took notes about it after every interaction. And then
Speaker 1: I realized that life is about experimenting. And when we
Speaker 1: talk about games, we're talking about being playful. We're talking
Speaker 1: about going in with hypotheses that you're not sure if
Speaker 1: they're going to work or not, that you might lose,
Speaker 1: but losing is also part of the game. So what
Speaker 1: I mean is that when I go into interactions, when
Speaker 1: I encourage my students to go interactions, is to take
Speaker 1: themse a little bit less seriously. Think of it like
Speaker 1: an experiment. Okay, you walk into a networking event and
Speaker 1: your goal, just like in a game, is to level
Speaker 1: up cold contacts to warm contacts, and maybe your measure
Speaker 1: of that success is handing out business cards and getting
Speaker 1: follow up coffees. If you go in with a little
Speaker 1: bit of a game mindset, you think to yourself, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to show up as my best self. I'm
Speaker 1: going to pack some of my favorite business cards. I'm
Speaker 1: going to try to ask a couple questions, and we're
Speaker 1: going to see who I meet. Worse comes to worse,
Speaker 1: I lose, I don't meet anyone. Best comes to best.
Speaker 1: I meet a couple interesting people, I get their cards,
Speaker 1: we go to coffee. It's a very different mindset than
Speaker 1: I'm going to go and I'm going to get ten contacts.
Speaker 1: And I don't get ten contacts. I'm an absolute failure,
Speaker 1: which is kind of how I used to think about
Speaker 1: people skills. Instead, I try to adopt this, yeah, a
Speaker 1: little bit like a playful mentality. Well, it sounds that
Speaker 1: you've come a long way tried. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that I realized that me trying so hard and taking
Speaker 1: things seriously was not good for my happiness or anyone
Speaker 1: I was meeting. It also wasn't very authentic, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, people talk about authenticity all the time, and
Speaker 1: it's I think it's hard to measure authenticity. But I
Speaker 1: think what people mean is that you show up as
Speaker 1: you are and you don't try to be something you're not.
Speaker 1: I think that when you take a kind of playful
Speaker 1: mentality to interactions, it helps you say, yeah, this is me.
Speaker 1: I want to win as me, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to try to get relationships with me. I want to
Speaker 1: try to level up as me, and if I can't.
Speaker 1: That's okay, we're not a good fit. I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that it's it's a game. It's a playfulness
Speaker 1: that isn't about manipulation. It's a different kind of playfulness.
Speaker 1: You're just just being playful, you know, no attached. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm I think it's like so interesting to approach
Speaker 1: relationships and actually tell people you're in that kind of
Speaker 1: playful experimental mindset. Like, for example, if I have a
Speaker 1: hypothesis and I do this all the time before I
Speaker 1: go to events, I'll say, Okay, I have a hypothesis
Speaker 1: that if I don't ask someone what they do, I'll
Speaker 1: actually learn more about them, because I wonder if I
Speaker 1: don't ask them what they do, if they like what
Speaker 1: they do, they'll tell me on their own. If they
Speaker 1: don't like what they do, they will studiously avoid it
Speaker 1: and talk about other things. That's a high bosis. However,
Speaker 1: that means that I can't rely on a very standard
Speaker 1: conversation starter. So I will go into relationships and say
Speaker 1: to people, Hey, you know, I know this is crazy,
Speaker 1: but I'm trying out this new conversation starter. Would you
Speaker 1: mind if I used it on you. I've never had
Speaker 1: anyone say no to that question. And then it's like
Speaker 1: if it doesn't work, like it's definitely happened where it's
Speaker 1: not worked, Like I've asked a quite a conversation shutter.
Speaker 1: We both just end up laughing because it's a ridiculous
Speaker 1: conversation starter. And then it's like, okay, like that didn't work,
Speaker 1: but at least we both tried it. Yeah, so that
Speaker 1: sounds like fun. That sounds like something that someone would
Speaker 1: do if they have like social anxiety, like a pre
Speaker 1: something to like bring in their pocket, you know, if
Speaker 1: they feel kind of stuck or frozen. I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head. Well, a lot
Speaker 1: of these tools are and I'm not diagnosed to social anxiety,
Speaker 1: but I think that I definitely have had it. You know,
Speaker 1: had moments of social anxiety growing up, especially because I
Speaker 1: used to get hives went into social interactions when I
Speaker 1: was younger. Yeah. Yeah, from my toes to my neck.
Speaker 1: It was horrible. And that was I think a you know,
Speaker 1: a form of social anxiety. But it went away, thank goodness.
Speaker 1: It only happens very rarely now as an adult. I
Speaker 1: think that for the most part, anyone who's read the
Speaker 1: book so far with social anxiety has said, you know,
Speaker 1: everything is like a tool, and I put it in
Speaker 1: my back pocket, and just knowing that it's there makes
Speaker 1: you feel a little bit confident, even if I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily use the conversation harder that I put in my
Speaker 1: back pocket, Knowing that I have that tool that I
Speaker 1: could use really helps. Yeah, it's like training wheels, But
Speaker 1: isn't the ultimate goal to take the training wheels off
Speaker 1: and be able to be really spontaneous in the moment
Speaker 1: and kind of contextually react to whatever the person's doing
Speaker 1: or looking like. Yes, absolutely, I will say that happens
Speaker 1: faster for some people versus others. It also changes on
Speaker 1: what your goals are. Like. For example, it's much harder
Speaker 1: to not know anyone go into a speed dating situation
Speaker 1: and your goal is to find your wife or your husband,
Speaker 1: right like, that's a really really big goal, a wonderful goal,
Speaker 1: a very big one for you. Might be oh my gosh, Yes,
Speaker 1: but you might get better at the small talk or
Speaker 1: the dates or the early parts faster if you're going
Speaker 1: through that phase. So think it depends on your goals
Speaker 1: and also the kind of experiments that you're willing to do. So, like,
Speaker 1: if you're just trying out conversation starters, that's not as
Speaker 1: hard as possibly doing resource theory experiments, right, Like, that's
Speaker 1: a much deeper one that might take you a little
Speaker 1: bit longer to be spontaneous, Whereas now I can go
Speaker 1: into networking event and I don't have to memorize conversation
Speaker 1: starters anymore, you know, I it is spontaneous for me,
Speaker 1: whereas some of the deeper stuff is a little harder. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I imagine that not just people of social anxiety, but
Speaker 1: I wonder if people who are on the autistic spectrum
Speaker 1: really could benefit from your book as well. You know,
Speaker 1: it's in pase. Yeah, you know, so I had never
Speaker 1: ever considered it. And then in one of my online courses,
Speaker 1: so I teach an online course it's similar to the book.
Speaker 1: You know, it's obviously very visual, and it was posted
Speaker 1: in adults with Asperger's and adults with autism community, and
Speaker 1: we had hundreds of students take it and they said
Speaker 1: it was the only course they had ever taken on
Speaker 1: people skills or soft skills that actually was very helpful.
Speaker 1: And so I guess I think that the way that
Speaker 1: I think is similar to the way that they think.
Speaker 1: So that was extremely such a wonderful surprise. And now
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out talking to some of the
Speaker 1: members of the community. You know, what more can I do? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because Simon Baron Cohen has shown you know, the ring
Speaker 1: and the mind and the eyes test is one of
Speaker 1: the deficits from people in the auto the spectrum me
Speaker 1: in your book, you systematically go through each of the
Speaker 1: major emotions and show examples, which is really good. You
Speaker 1: show pictures that show examples of what different emotions look
Speaker 1: like with different faces, and then you delineate what you know,
Speaker 1: like upturned brow you know means this and that and
Speaker 1: you know, for instance, I learned what I failed the
Speaker 1: contemptuous item on your test. Yeah, what score did I get?
Speaker 1: I took your beginning test? How did it go? And
Speaker 1: I scored a one forty which was a good good
Speaker 1: but room for improvement range. Yeah, A hope with everyone.
Speaker 1: I'm not hopeless. Yeah, no, no, for sure not. You know,
Speaker 1: it's funny the contemptuous micro expression. So I think I
Speaker 1: mentioned this. So, by the way, for everyone listening, contempt
Speaker 1: or negativity or scorn is one of the simplest of
Speaker 1: all the micro expressions. It's just a one sided mouth raise.
Speaker 1: So if you kind of give a little smirk, lift
Speaker 1: up one of your sides of your mouth, that's a
Speaker 1: contempt smirk. That single question, and we have a body
Speaker 1: language quiz on our website. That is the question that
Speaker 1: most people get wrong, and most people guess boredom, which
Speaker 1: is interesting because that's a huge difference from scorn to boredom,
Speaker 1: which is a passive emotion that shows that we are
Speaker 1: sometimes assuming that someone is neutral when actually there's a
Speaker 1: tinge of negativity there. So you are not alone, my friend,
Speaker 1: in guessing that. That's guess that one wrong, because that
Speaker 1: is the one that people most often get wrong. So, okay,
Speaker 1: so you talk about that, but what are some other
Speaker 1: ways that you can make a good first impression other
Speaker 1: than decoding what someone's feeling. Yeah, so when you're talking
Speaker 1: about first impressions, you're talking about two different things. You're
Speaker 1: talking about the non verbal and the verbal. So you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of studies have found that our first impression
Speaker 1: happens in the first second or first few seconds in
Speaker 1: meeting someone. So it's very rare that you can have
Speaker 1: a verbal exchange those first few seconds. Usually it happens nonverbally. However,
Speaker 1: there is an exception to this, and it is on
Speaker 1: the phone, so I thought I would Maybe this has
Speaker 1: been on my mind recently today as I was thinking
Speaker 1: about first impressions, even on this podcast where I said, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to be here. You welcomed everyone and
Speaker 1: greeted everyone. That was actually my entire first impression for
Speaker 1: this entire podcast. And the reason I was thinking about
Speaker 1: it is because I don't know you can hear and
Speaker 1: losing my voice a little bit, and so I was
Speaker 1: really worried today about my vocal power. And I know
Speaker 1: that for first impressions, how we answer the phone hello
Speaker 1: versus in person, when we reach out our hand and
Speaker 1: we shake someone's hand and we say, hey, good to
Speaker 1: meet you, that vocal power as actually sets the stage
Speaker 1: for how someone feels about you for that entire interaction.
Speaker 1: So when it comes to the vocal first impression, the
Speaker 1: best thing you can do is actually have your vocal
Speaker 1: cords as relaxed as possible. And that sounds kind of silly,
Speaker 1: but actually what we have found we're doing a vocal
Speaker 1: power experiment on our website right now, is that if
Speaker 1: you are standing in confident, nonverbal so taking up space,
Speaker 1: feet spread wide, hands on hip and right now as
Speaker 1: I record this, I'm actually standing that confidence comes through
Speaker 1: your voice into your hello. So people who rated there
Speaker 1: was the same person said hello with five different body
Speaker 1: language expressions. Their power posing expression got the highest overall
Speaker 1: ratings by random strangers. Yeah, so there's something about this
Speaker 1: internal confidence piece, you know, showing up, knowing tools, showing
Speaker 1: up as relaxed as possible, taking up space. I always
Speaker 1: use the armrest when I'm in a chair. I always
Speaker 1: try to, you know, stand with my feet both planted
Speaker 1: and use like have space to my arms and my
Speaker 1: Torso that actually translates into your vocal cords, relaxes your voice,
Speaker 1: and then comes out in a great first impression. So
Speaker 1: it sounds to me like, in the parlance of psychological literature,
Speaker 1: you are a high self monitor. Yes, oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: oh yes. Now I tend to be a low self monitor,
Speaker 1: which gets me in trouble a lot because I tend
Speaker 1: to just have no filter and I tend to not
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking, you know, like, oh, how can I
Speaker 1: make a good first impression. I'm just thinking, like I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna be myself and whatever. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that's good, but I'm saying, are there individual differences here? Though?
Speaker 1: And actually, so what you said was really important And
Speaker 1: she said I'm just going to show up and be myself.
Speaker 1: That is a facet of confidence, right, So for me,
Speaker 1: I wish I wish that I could show up and
Speaker 1: just be like, yeah, I'm gonna be myself. The problem
Speaker 1: is is I am an anxious person. I'm a high neurotic,
Speaker 1: and so being myself actually means I'm quite anxious. What
Speaker 1: works better for me? And this is what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Individual differences is consciously knowing, Okay, I'm going to show
Speaker 1: up to this event or I'm going to go on
Speaker 1: this podcast, I'm so excited to talk about this work.
Speaker 1: I actually have to get myself in the mindset of
Speaker 1: how excited I get about my experiment or the book,
Speaker 1: or showing up at this event or whatever my goal is,
Speaker 1: because that helps me dial up that confident, excited part
Speaker 1: of myself that maybe gets overshadowed by the anxious part
Speaker 1: of myself that's like, oh my gosh, no one's gonna
Speaker 1: like me, which is always like the thing that the
Speaker 1: baseline fear that we all have. That makes a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. But wait, do narcissists have that fear though?
Speaker 1: Are they like thinking like, oh my gosh, what if
Speaker 1: someone doesn't like me? Are they that? No? No, not usually. No,
Speaker 1: I'm no expert on narcissm. Actually I've specifically avoided I
Speaker 1: know this is crazy, and I'm happy to talk about
Speaker 1: it from a business perspective. I have specifically avoided doing
Speaker 1: too much research on narcissists and publishing or writing about
Speaker 1: narcis a lot. Because you're right, they do not fall
Speaker 1: into any of the normal averages that we're talking about.
Speaker 1: They have different social filters, they have different social fears,
Speaker 1: if any, by the way, like sometimes it's not even
Speaker 1: any but they're very complicated. Sometimes they have great self
Speaker 1: confidence and also great amounts of low self esteem. So
Speaker 1: they are their own bucket of tricks, and I might
Speaker 1: be very equipped to talk about them intelligently. Well, they
Speaker 1: probably would have loved hearing that. It makes them sound special.
Speaker 1: Oh no, oh no, your ego. But no, that's cool.
Speaker 1: So I want to talk about chrisma a little bit.
Speaker 1: You talked about confidence. Is chrisma more than just confidence? Like,
Speaker 1: what is the package of charisma. Have you decoded that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So charisma is definitely more than confidence. And this is
Speaker 1: why I think chrisma is such a really interesting topic
Speaker 1: because charisma and there was researchers at Harvard Business School
Speaker 1: that looked at the research on how we judge people
Speaker 1: in those first few seconds and they found it's a
Speaker 1: combination of warmth and competence that people who are very friendly,
Speaker 1: good team player, very likable, combined with people who are
Speaker 1: also very competent, knowledgeable, dependable, powerful, That combination, that sweet
Speaker 1: spot hits the closest to charisma more than confidence. So,
Speaker 1: for example, a narcissist could have a lot of confidence
Speaker 1: but not be very charismatic. Right, they could be highly
Speaker 1: full of their own abilities, but if they're not very likable,
Speaker 1: which is a problem for a lot of narcissists, then
Speaker 1: they are not going to hit that charismatic sweet spot.
Speaker 1: That's why you have so many people who have a
Speaker 1: unique blend or brand of charisma. For example, be the
Speaker 1: typical stereotype of charisma, the bubbly extrovert, that's fine, but
Speaker 1: you could also be highly charismatic and be a thoughtful introvert.
Speaker 1: You could also be highly charismatic as a very nurturing,
Speaker 1: compassionate soother right, those are all we consider all those
Speaker 1: types charismatic, and it's because they happen to hit the
Speaker 1: sweet spot a very high incompetence and very high and warmth.
Speaker 1: I like that. I like both those things, so that's cool, yes,
Speaker 1: And I will tell you that it's something that I
Speaker 1: watch out for it. So if you're like, you know,
Speaker 1: meeting people or you're listening to podcasts, I'm always trying
Speaker 1: to kind of think about, Wow, this person. Do I
Speaker 1: feel like I could sit with them over a cup
Speaker 1: of coffee? Are they likable? Are they friendly? And do
Speaker 1: I also feel like I would love to hear them
Speaker 1: give it a TED talk? If I say yes to both,
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, this person is very highly charismatic. If
Speaker 1: I ever get a TED the main stage Ted talk,
Speaker 1: I think I'm going to just sit there on the
Speaker 1: stage and drink coffee, love it and pretend I'm giving
Speaker 1: the giving the talk to them, you know the other
Speaker 1: drinking coffee with me to signal both warmth and competies.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you could bring up a little armchair and
Speaker 1: have a steaming mug of coffee. And the funny section
Speaker 1: on the side table. I love that visual. I love
Speaker 1: join me, come join me for some Yes, happily. I
Speaker 1: also think that what's interesting about warmth is warmth is
Speaker 1: a little bit harder if you are strangers. And this
Speaker 1: makes sense of course, right, like we've just met each other.
Speaker 1: So what's funny about warmth is, well, obviously have this
Speaker 1: protection part of our brain, the limbic part of our brain.
Speaker 1: That's like, we don't know, you know, we don't want
Speaker 1: to get too friendly with someone who we haven't had
Speaker 1: multiple experiences with, and so the more activities we have
Speaker 1: with someone, the more locations we see them. That's why
Speaker 1: if you're in the dating world, I always say it's
Speaker 1: really good if you can see someone in multiple different
Speaker 1: locations because that helps with your warmth, that helps ther
Speaker 1: approachability because someone's like, oh, I think I saw that
Speaker 1: I last week at my gym, and didn't I see
Speaker 1: her at the grocery store. Wait a minute, are we
Speaker 1: in the same cycling class? Yeah? You know, Like then
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, we are in the same cycling class.
Speaker 1: Let's go grab drink. It's so so much easier. Even like,
Speaker 1: for example, if Scott and I we did the same
Speaker 1: cycling class. Both of our warmth would be dialed up
Speaker 1: because just because we had seen each other in a
Speaker 1: different location, even if we hadn't talked to each other. Yeah,
Speaker 1: life so works like that. You're right, if you were
Speaker 1: actually on your website you say you're a master lie detector.
Speaker 1: Oh can you say that you could teach someone how
Speaker 1: to be a master eye detector in a hundred minutes. Well,
Speaker 1: there's also a really good, beautiful range in line detection.
Speaker 1: So in line detection lying is a beautiful science. I mean,
Speaker 1: I find deception fascinating for lots of reasons. There's flat
Speaker 1: out deception, there's also self deception. There's also I'm not
Speaker 1: sure yet, right, Okay, Cay tell the listeners a little
Speaker 1: bit about what the triple threat is. Yeah, So the
Speaker 1: triple threat is the nonverbal side of first impression. And
Speaker 1: it's a kind of cute see name. Because I was
Speaker 1: trying to find a way to tie together this fascinating
Speaker 1: science on first impressions. And there's three things that we
Speaker 1: can do in the first few seconds of meeting someone
Speaker 1: that really make us that triple threat of warmth and
Speaker 1: competence and help us level up. So the first one
Speaker 1: is real easy. It's hands. So we love hand gestures.
Speaker 1: We cannot help it. As humans, we love to see
Speaker 1: someone's hands. It helps with comprehension, it helps with trust.
Speaker 1: And so you always heard your mother say, you know,
Speaker 1: don't put your hands in your pockets, don't put your
Speaker 1: hands behind your back. I will level that up that
Speaker 1: mother's advice and say, not only should you have your
Speaker 1: hands visible, should also have your hands be expressive. So
Speaker 1: if you're going to shake someone's hands, indicate that you're
Speaker 1: going to shake someone's hands by leading hand first. That
Speaker 1: helps them know, ah, this person's coming in for a handshake.
Speaker 1: Or better yet, you have an elevator pitch. Think about
Speaker 1: how you can describe your words along with your hands.
Speaker 1: So talking about a big idea, you hold your hands
Speaker 1: like a big beach ball. If I were to hold
Speaker 1: my hands like I was holding a little penny and
Speaker 1: I said I have a big idea, you would be like, what,
Speaker 1: it's not that big. It's the size of a penny.
Speaker 1: And that's because our brain loves hand gestures. So thinking
Speaker 1: about how you can be explanatory, like, for example, right now,
Speaker 1: I'm using lots of hand gestures as I talk and
Speaker 1: that also, I believe, and I'm going to do research
Speaker 1: on this. I think that also comes through in my
Speaker 1: vocal charisma. So if I were to be sitting on
Speaker 1: my hands right now, I think that I would sound
Speaker 1: less expressive. It's something that we're going to hopefully test soon.
Speaker 1: So that's the first part of the triple threat. The
Speaker 1: second part of the triple threat is something I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: which is confident body language. There's a different set of
Speaker 1: research that's quite compelling on athletes and that athletes across cultures,
Speaker 1: when they win a race, they take up a lot
Speaker 1: of space, and when they lose a race, they take
Speaker 1: up very little space. And this has been seen across cultures,
Speaker 1: across genders, across races. So if you want to come
Speaker 1: across as a winner, we associate pride body langth whige
Speaker 1: maybe not power by languge, pride body language with taking
Speaker 1: up space, so keeping your shoulders down and back, having
Speaker 1: your arms nice and loose, and using the armrests. As
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, those are indications of pride, which is
Speaker 1: exactly what we want to show because it's a facet
Speaker 1: of competence. Nice and there's some there's something called authentic pride. Right,
Speaker 1: I've never heard authentic pride. Really, there's the whole this
Speaker 1: whole research literature distinguished between hubristic pride versus authentic pride. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a whole other literature. I could say to you.
Speaker 1: It's from an evolutionary point of view, we evolved multiple
Speaker 1: roots to social status, Like hubristic pride tends to be
Speaker 1: the kind of that's with conceit and arrogance, whereas authentic
Speaker 1: pride is a very stable form of self esteem and competence.
Speaker 1: So it just sounds to me what you're talking about
Speaker 1: is what research is called authentic pride, which is good.
Speaker 1: Oh I love it. Yes, please send me that research.
Speaker 1: Y I teach you something you taught you're teaching me about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm glad, Oh my gosh, I learned it. I
Speaker 1: love it. Yes, yes, please. And the last one I
Speaker 1: know that we talked about the trible threat is eye contact,
Speaker 1: which we've again been taught by Mom and dad. Make
Speaker 1: eye contact. The reason why eye contact is so important
Speaker 1: is because it produces oxytocin, which makes us feel that warm, yeah,
Speaker 1: that warm luscious connection with someone else. And so the
Speaker 1: eye contact is a way to keep building on that warmth.
Speaker 1: It's really important for the warmth factor. Someone can be
Speaker 1: very highly competent and overhead gazing, but you will not
Speaker 1: get that warmth factor if you're not making that mutual
Speaker 1: gazing as someone's connecting with you because they want that
Speaker 1: oxytocin that comes from the eye contact. Okay, so we've
Speaker 1: just mastered the first five minutes of an interaction. Now
Speaker 1: what about the first five hours? How can you predict
Speaker 1: someone's behavior and prevent miscommunications? I think that's where we
Speaker 1: really get into the most trouble. In fact, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the literature out there, a lot of
Speaker 1: the articles that are out there are on either the
Speaker 1: first five minutes or leadership like the So my book
Speaker 1: is broken up to the first five minutes, the first
Speaker 1: five hours, in the first five days. We have a
Speaker 1: lot on either end first five days, the first five minutes,
Speaker 1: very little in the middle. That time in your relationship
Speaker 1: where you've been dating for maybe you've gone on two
Speaker 1: or three dates. You're not sure if someone could do more,
Speaker 1: you're not sure if you could be serious with someone
Speaker 1: that time, and a friendship where you've seen each other
Speaker 1: a couple of times, but you're like, should I get
Speaker 1: to this this person's number and text with them. It's a
Speaker 1: colleague you see at work, but you're not sure we've
Speaker 1: got out to lunch together, but could we also hang
Speaker 1: out on the weekends. It's that phase of the relationship.
Speaker 1: So I have five different hacks on this, but I
Speaker 1: think the biggest one is the one that we touched
Speaker 1: on earlier was which is reading micro expressions. So decoding
Speaker 1: hidden emotions, I think is like a secret superpower that
Speaker 1: we don't leverage everyone. At least research for doctor Paul
Speaker 1: Eckman has found that we make seven of the same
Speaker 1: universal micro expressions across cultures and genders. And this is
Speaker 1: extremely powerful because it means that it's not cultural, it's
Speaker 1: not learned. If you learn these seven micro expressions, and
Speaker 1: I can say this from at least my personal experience
Speaker 1: and working with students, it's like someone flipped on the
Speaker 1: world in HD. It's like all of a sudden, you
Speaker 1: see things you never saw before. So you learned already
Speaker 1: one on the podcast Contempt, and I actually think that
Speaker 1: you should start with that. A lot of times people
Speaker 1: will try to learn all seven at once, and it's
Speaker 1: a lot So what I would actually say is over
Speaker 1: the next few weeks, see if you can spot the smirk,
Speaker 1: See if you feel yourself making the smirk, and see
Speaker 1: if it gives you any extra insight into the person
Speaker 1: you're speaking with, the conversation you're having, or even your
Speaker 1: own feelings on a topic. I like it better when
Speaker 1: we can go one micro expression at a time, and
Speaker 1: that's the perfect first one to start with. Have you
Speaker 1: done the Yckman training? I have. Yeah, I've done both
Speaker 1: of his trainings, I think, the main micro expression training
Speaker 1: and also the subtle micro expression training. And he also
Speaker 1: did a couple of lectures with my team in my
Speaker 1: lab on some of the current research he's working on.
Speaker 1: He's also in the book. Also, I can I would
Speaker 1: love to issue a couple of like dares or experiments
Speaker 1: that listeners could try at this podcast. Okay, so you
Speaker 1: know I mentioned that the playful experimental mindset, and I
Speaker 1: really think that that frees us. It frees us from anxiety,
Speaker 1: it frees us from expectations. If we go into interactions
Speaker 1: like okay, like I'm going to try this, we cannot lose.
Speaker 1: So the first experiment I would love for you to
Speaker 1: try is what I just mentioned. See if you can
Speaker 1: spot contempt in the next seven days, and if you
Speaker 1: see it, think about what else you could learn from
Speaker 1: that person. So either asking them is everything, okay, did
Speaker 1: I miss everything? Let me know what's going on for you,
Speaker 1: Or if you feel it on your own face or
Speaker 1: see it on your own face on a video call,
Speaker 1: think about exploring that emotion deeper. That's challenge number one.
Speaker 1: Challenge number two is see if you can do the
Speaker 1: triple threat. So at your next event, at your next meeting,
Speaker 1: try to walk out in that athlete pride, posing authentic
Speaker 1: confidence with hands first, go into that handshake, and then
Speaker 1: try to maintain eye contact at least for the few
Speaker 1: minutes first few minutes of a conversation. And the last
Speaker 1: one is see if you can challenge yourself to level
Speaker 1: up one relationship in your life. So maybe that's a
Speaker 1: colleague who you've been trying to ask out to lunch
Speaker 1: or dinner. Maybe it's a friend who you want to
Speaker 1: deep in the relationship with. Maybe it's someone you want
Speaker 1: to date seriously, and see if you can try to
Speaker 1: level up, because I think that's what life is about.
Speaker 1: It's about trying to level up and deepen our relationships.
Speaker 1: I love that. So those are two great challenges and
Speaker 1: I'll report back to you how I did. Now you
Speaker 1: kind of talk about how you can get along with anyone,
Speaker 1: that you kind of have those skills. Is that true?
Speaker 1: Like do you really feel like you've obtained a state
Speaker 1: you're like the Buddha of social relationships, like you can
Speaker 1: get along with anyone. Oh, you know, so there's a
Speaker 1: distinction here. So what I try to say in the
Speaker 1: book is I want to teach you how you can
Speaker 1: get along with anyone, but not necessarily everyone. Oh I
Speaker 1: mean yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I mean is you
Speaker 1: should try to honor when you have that gut instinct
Speaker 1: that you don't get along with someone or you're not
Speaker 1: on the same page with someone. So there is many
Speaker 1: many times we're all having an interaction with someone and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm asking interesting conversation charters and you know,
Speaker 1: trying to tap into their hidden emotions, and it's just
Speaker 1: not jiving. Like it's just not going as well as
Speaker 1: I would have liked. We're not having a lot of
Speaker 1: me too moments. I think that one of the most
Speaker 1: important skills is to say cool, like this isn't someone
Speaker 1: that I want to level up with have a great night, right.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that to them. I would be like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to live up with you. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I do. I think, you know what, like this isn't
Speaker 1: my person? Yeah, And I think that that's okay, Like
Speaker 1: that is such a good skill to have. What if
Speaker 1: they're your boss though, And I'm not speaking from personal experience,
Speaker 1: but what if what if there's someone you have to
Speaker 1: work with and you're like, I don't want to level
Speaker 1: up with this person. What do you do? Then? These
Speaker 1: tools work? And I've been in that awful situation, and
Speaker 1: I hate that situation. It's extremely difficult when you have
Speaker 1: to get along with someone you don't like. But it
Speaker 1: happens right. Bosses, colleagues, in laws, partners, I mean, it
Speaker 1: happens right. And these tools do work. I do not
Speaker 1: encourage people to use those tools in a long term,
Speaker 1: difficult relationship. I think when we say no to people,
Speaker 1: when we set up boundaries, we have so much more
Speaker 1: space and energy to say yes to the right people
Speaker 1: and the right things. Yeah. I really like that. So
Speaker 1: finally we get to the most advanced step, the first
Speaker 1: five days. Now, why is five days the most advanced step?
Speaker 1: Why is that now like five years. Yes, that's true. Okay,
Speaker 1: So here's my thinking behind it. So I was thinking about, Okay,
Speaker 1: when you spend five days with someone on a vacation
Speaker 1: or on a work retreat or as a friend in college,
Speaker 1: if you can spend five good days with someone, you
Speaker 1: know that you are set up to have a long relationship.
Speaker 1: Anytime that I've been on a trip with someone or
Speaker 1: you know, I think about studying a broad like for example,
Speaker 1: I met my husband studying abroad, and I think I
Speaker 1: knew within the first five days that he would be
Speaker 1: a lifelong friend. Now, I did not know at the
Speaker 1: time that we would be dating or married, but I
Speaker 1: certainly knew with those first five days that, like, this
Speaker 1: was someone that was special to me. I think that
Speaker 1: after the first five days, it sort of indicates that
Speaker 1: if you want to this is someone that you could
Speaker 1: have a relationship for the next five, ten, twenty years,
Speaker 1: if those first five days go well, if you're happy
Speaker 1: with them, if you feel like you're driving yes, and
Speaker 1: some of these strategies that you talk about about how
Speaker 1: you say vulnerability is attractive, couldn't some of those strategies apply,
Speaker 1: Like in the first five minutes as well, Like, I
Speaker 1: find like vulnerability is attractive even at first impression for me,
Speaker 1: just to a certain degree depends what you're vulnerable about.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I agree with you. I think that vulnerability.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, the first page of my book is
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of vulnerability, you know, expose a's and
Speaker 1: that's okay for me. How and I know that a
Speaker 1: lot of introverts are reading my book. I have a
Speaker 1: lot of introverted students. Vulnerability, if it's really true and
Speaker 1: it's really authentic, can be quite scary, and so I
Speaker 1: didn't want to make it something you felt like you
Speaker 1: had to do with in the first five minutes. If
Speaker 1: you're with someone you're like, wow, like I really feel safe,
Speaker 1: Like I really feel like I could share something vulnerable.
Speaker 1: I one hundred percent say go for it. But if
Speaker 1: it's real vulnerability, it can be scary and sometimes not
Speaker 1: always safe. Like there, I can remember specific moments in
Speaker 1: my life where I shared a vulnerability too early and
Speaker 1: it was painful. It was painful. We've all been there,
Speaker 1: and so oh, oh my gosh, and you're just like,
Speaker 1: why why did I do that? So it is always
Speaker 1: an option to exercise early. Same with actually all the
Speaker 1: things in the Final five Hacks or Final four hacks.
Speaker 1: For example, one of the other hacks is how to
Speaker 1: deal with difficult people. Hopefully you're not dealing with difficult
Speaker 1: people in the first few minutes of me them, but
Speaker 1: you might. Right you kept someone in a day, your
Speaker 1: process is kind of in a bad mood, and so
Speaker 1: you have the option to use any tips in the
Speaker 1: book in the first five minutes. But I think that
Speaker 1: in most situations the deep triggers can happen after a
Speaker 1: couple of dates. And also remember that people are always
Speaker 1: putting on their best face in the first few minutes
Speaker 1: or first few hours typically, especially like in dating, everyone's
Speaker 1: trying really hard, and so it's hard to get through
Speaker 1: that first layer in the first few dates. Absolutely, you
Speaker 1: have the sentence I really liked you said. Turn people
Speaker 1: on by making them feel wanted, liked and known. Is that,
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, getting like the heart of
Speaker 1: what you call social attuonment. Yes, that's exactly, That's exactly
Speaker 1: what social attonement is. And the important piece of that,
Speaker 1: I think is you have to be in the place
Speaker 1: where you can give in an interaction like that, like
Speaker 1: I didn't say find people who make you feel wanted,
Speaker 1: hard and known. I said you have to try to
Speaker 1: make people feel that way. And that's why that's literally
Speaker 1: the last section of the book, because that's been the
Speaker 1: whole first part of the book, saying if you're not
Speaker 1: leveling up with people, if they're not saying me too,
Speaker 1: if you're reading contempt and anger and discussed, they are
Speaker 1: not safe. They're not worthy of that very very high
Speaker 1: goal of relationships. I like that. Look, Vanessa, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for chaling with me today. And I just
Speaker 1: want to say to everyone listening to the show, I
Speaker 1: think you should check this book out. It's a lot
Speaker 1: of fun. I raced through this book like it's very
Speaker 1: there's a lot of helpful information, but it's also just
Speaker 1: really fun to read, like your personality shines through and
Speaker 1: you actually have the same personality talking to like you
Speaker 1: write just like you talk. Yes, not everyone is like that,
Speaker 1: I know, so well. Thank you so much for reading it,
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for recommending it and for
Speaker 1: everyone listening, Like, if you have any questions or feedback,
Speaker 1: that's the stuff that good science is made on. So
Speaker 1: feel free to send me your tips to your puzzles
Speaker 1: or your questions. Sounds good. One last question, did we
Speaker 1: level up? We leveled up? Yeah, sounds great. Thanks again
Speaker 1: for being on the show, Thanks for having me. Bye.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Psychology Podcast with doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barak Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as
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