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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Does it never end with

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Speaker 1: this woman? In the Last Days more from Susan Smith.

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Speaker 1: As you recall, Susan Smith pretended a black male carjacked

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Speaker 1: her and then rolled her to children in their car,

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Speaker 1: strapped in a seat belts into a lake. Well, this

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Speaker 1: woman not go away. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. Yes, it's the same

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Speaker 1: Susan Smith that drowned her two sons in a South

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Speaker 1: Carolina lake back in October nineteen ninety four. Recall she's

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Speaker 1: been throwing a fit behind bars when she didn't get

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Speaker 1: parole for the double murders. Well, in the Last Days

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Speaker 1: another bombshell. She casually apologized to her husband after murdering

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Speaker 1: their children. Yes, the ex husband of Susan Smith who

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Speaker 1: drowned her two boys in a lake reveals what is

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Speaker 1: X wants I said just after she killed the boys. Now,

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Speaker 1: the case just got a ton of national attention after

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Speaker 1: Smith was denied pardon in parole and then she threw

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Speaker 1: a fit and began misbehaving behind bars. Again, this is

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Speaker 1: what the former husband, David said. Quote, she just casually,

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Speaker 1: like you and I sitting here said I'm sorry, and

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Speaker 1: that was it. Yes, sorry, he recalled, asking Susan why

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Speaker 1: she killed their two baby boys, and she said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why, but sorry, let me refresh your recollection.

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Speaker 2: Laol love.

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Speaker 3: And he's a lady. You come on got door. And

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Speaker 3: she's some guy jumping into a red light with her

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Speaker 3: car with her two kids in it. And he took

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Speaker 3: off and she got out of call here at Ohio

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Speaker 3: lay let her call it.

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Speaker 2: I don't see.

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Speaker 3: I need to go along, you know, down here.

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Speaker 4: A car is what we need to.

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Speaker 5: Kind of.

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Speaker 3: A prodigy. What color was it? A burgundy Mago proteger?

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Speaker 3: We don't get him going pay him? I got twop.

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Speaker 1: I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know where to go first because I got such

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Speaker 1: awesome experts, but I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.

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Speaker 1: He is the director of Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview Room where

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Speaker 1: I found him. You can find him at Coldcase Foundation

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Speaker 1: dot org or on the Interview Room Former homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: Three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt. Chris mcdonna,

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Speaker 1: don't you love the degree of detail? Hey? You know

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Speaker 1: what send me sometimes you got to hear the best stuff.

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Speaker 1: Can you play that one more time? Listen, my love,

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Speaker 1: that is a lady.

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Speaker 3: You come on dot dollar and see some guy drop

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Speaker 3: into a red light with her car with her too,

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Speaker 3: and then they ain't took all she got out of

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Speaker 3: call here at Ohio and let her call it.

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Speaker 2: I don't see.

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Speaker 3: I need to go along, get down here.

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Speaker 4: Eric, carry but we need to.

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Speaker 3: Up a mag protegee.

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Speaker 1: What color was it?

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Speaker 3: A burgundy maga protege. We don't get him going, payim

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Speaker 3: I got I'll.

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Speaker 1: Call all the detail Chris McDonough. She's quote real hysterical

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Speaker 1: and you need to call him long and get him

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Speaker 1: down here right now. And you hear her feeding details

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Speaker 1: in the background.

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Speaker 5: Nancy wasn't deaf the narrative that captivated America.

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Speaker 1: How can you be so calm? You know?

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Speaker 5: We just get used to it.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, right somebody still get very angry, very angry. And

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Speaker 1: I know the end of this story. But the detail.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever seen person? They will spin you a

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Speaker 1: yarn with such incredibly rich detail.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minute show

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Speaker 5: and that amount is typically a sign of deception and

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Speaker 5: She kicked it off right.

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Speaker 6: From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,

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Speaker 6: running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps

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Speaker 6: out and you know, this occurs in rural Union County,

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Speaker 6: South Carolina, near the John D.

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Speaker 1: Long Lake. And you know, hold on, Chris McDonald, where

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Speaker 1: do you live, Chris.

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Speaker 5: Well, right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in

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Speaker 5: South Carolina right there in Mount Pleasure.

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Speaker 1: You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to

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Speaker 1: another country boy like this country girl right here. Just

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Speaker 1: got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty high flute.

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate,

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Speaker 1: still waiting on an the book to come out. Host

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Speaker 1: of Bodybag's hit podcast, this area, Chris McDonough has lived

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina. I've gone to this scene before. It's

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Speaker 1: extremely rural, and I'm supposed to believe a guy jumps

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Speaker 1: out of what from behind a stop sign and hijacks

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Speaker 1: her car and takes off with the children clearly in

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Speaker 1: the back seat, two little boys.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have

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Speaker 7: somebody that wants to do this kind of harm? Whether

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Speaker 7: or not they had an awareness that, you know, these

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Speaker 7: poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.

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Speaker 7: The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive

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Speaker 7: behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as

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Speaker 7: an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and

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Speaker 7: I'm going to take a long look at what she

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Speaker 7: has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: the line share, the line share of home sides that

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Speaker 7: we talked about have some a familial connection that means

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Speaker 7: that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.

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Speaker 7: So you're going to tell me the random stranger just

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Speaker 7: came up and kidnapped these babies and run off with

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Speaker 7: them and left her standing on the side of the

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Speaker 7: road weeping.

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Speaker 1: Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris McDonagh,

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Speaker 1: I am going along with everything he says, but he's

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Speaker 1: a wily one. You got to really watching watch what

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect,

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Speaker 1: but did you hear him say if the unknown male

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Speaker 1: assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking

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Speaker 1: right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can

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Speaker 1: see straight into the back seat from every angle of

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Speaker 1: the car. It's not like you know, you see those

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Speaker 1: black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's

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Speaker 1: going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: a shot from the distance, I can see through the

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Speaker 1: back window, through the back dash, and through the other

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Speaker 1: side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely

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Speaker 1: see that children were strapped into car seats in the

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Speaker 1: back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take

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Speaker 1: a listen to the nine one one call.

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Speaker 4: Listen Union one of us one of five gohad it

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Speaker 4: was a black male driving a bird and Rob the

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Speaker 4: jag affirmited one of fine.

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Speaker 3: They had two jeweled with it was one I find.

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Speaker 4: For one understood these were small children. These are her children,

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Speaker 4: and she jumped out of the car and he took

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Speaker 4: the car with the children and he headed toy Chestra

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Speaker 4: one hundred hat or the victory both quick gripla family.

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Speaker 4: When I gathered by the call, they are not this

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Speaker 4: is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's car

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Speaker 4: at a red light and she jumped out Ingle.

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Speaker 1: I mean, really, Tara and I'm leading up to what

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Speaker 1: Susan Smith is doing right now, and let me tell

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Speaker 1: you that involves six different men. That said Tara Malick

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Speaker 1: joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith and Malik,

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Speaker 1: former state and federal prosecutor. Tara once again blame the

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Speaker 1: black man. I remember when this happened. I was trying

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Speaker 1: a case and I looked over at my friend, my colleague,

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Speaker 1: who went on to be a judge, I might add,

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Speaker 1: and I went, Herman, have you seen the composite of

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Speaker 1: the guy that Susan Smith described? Yeah, I know what

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Speaker 1: you're going to say, Yeah, it looks just like you.

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Speaker 1: It looked just like Herman Sloan, my trial partner who

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Speaker 1: had come into court to bail me out of some sling.

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Speaker 1: I got in with a judge with some appellate law

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Speaker 1: trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did.

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Speaker 1: But he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like this,

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Speaker 1: Susan Smith burke, and he did. I mean, think about it, Tara,

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Speaker 1: an innocent person could have been arrested and probably tried

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Speaker 1: and convicted based on her fake composite and all of

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Speaker 1: her lies. Like my Herman, one of my best friends,

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Speaker 1: in the DA's office.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, I mean, the crime itself was atrocious and horrific

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Speaker 8: and terrible.

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Speaker 1: And then and then, you.

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Speaker 8: Know, to give this false profile of someone else who

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Speaker 8: may have done it, wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting

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Speaker 8: everybody's time, but also, like you said, putting somebody else

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Speaker 8: potentially in jeopardy of being picked up for It's just

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Speaker 8: mind boggling that she would go down this road.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've dealt with the sod defense many times.

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Speaker 1: I nam knew that some other d did it.

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Speaker 9: So d D.

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Speaker 1: Here she goes, some other dude did it, and listen

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Speaker 1: to her. Listen.

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Speaker 9: I would like us to stay to whoever has my children,

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Speaker 9: that they please may please bring.

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Speaker 1: Them home.

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Speaker 9: To us where they belong.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the Last Days, Susan

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Speaker 1: Smith makes headlines again. Look, lady, you murdered your two boys.

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Speaker 1: Go away after one fiasco after the next behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Now this her ex husband David describes. After the murders,

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Speaker 1: she plunks down and just says, sorry, that's it. That's

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Speaker 1: the whole thing. Susan Smith tried to in their murders

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Speaker 1: on an unknown unidentified black mail doctor Bethany Marshall joining

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Speaker 1: says she's a renounced psychoanalyst at Doctorbethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, she now has a recurring

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Speaker 1: role in Paris in Love season two. That said, Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: I don't get it. We've got men sexting and texting

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Speaker 1: and writing and sending money and love letters to Susan

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Speaker 1: Smith when she is a ballfaced liar that car children

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Speaker 1: in the worst way, letting her car, her Burgundy protege

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Speaker 1: go down a ramp with the two little boys alive,

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Speaker 1: strapped in the back seat. Why I don't get it.

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Speaker 1: Why would men want to be with this woman, send

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Speaker 1: her money and sex text with her? But did you

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Speaker 1: hear her? Lie? Do you remember when that happened? Crying

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Speaker 1: and the snotting and all that happening. And I want

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Speaker 1: to say, you ever have my children? They please please

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Speaker 1: bring them home to us where they belong, knowing full

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Speaker 1: well they drowned strapped in their car seats.

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Speaker 10: Well show how immature she is at the most basic level.

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Speaker 1: That the most you could say she's immature. She murdered

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Speaker 1: two little boys.

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Speaker 10: We know she's a sociopath, but what beyond the fact

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Speaker 10: that she's a sociopath. What additional factors are there that

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Speaker 10: would lead to this? And one is an over attachment

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Speaker 10: to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,

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Speaker 10: the feeling you have.

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Speaker 1: The first six Now are you linking this to double murder?

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Speaker 1: Why this woman did not get the death penalty? I

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Speaker 1: do not know. And now there's six guys trying to

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Speaker 1: have sex with her.

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Speaker 10: Really ill, But really it's really a pathological attachment to men,

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Speaker 10: like being in.

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Speaker 1: A barrel with a rattlesnake. Who was that?

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Speaker 10: Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who can't fantasize,

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Speaker 10: who kill their children often have some really First of all,

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Speaker 10: they usually what we call cluster be.

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Speaker 1: That or not I really have some sexy measure going

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Speaker 1: on because I'm totally cutting your mind.

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Speaker 10: Okay, So their cluster bee, which means they have three

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Speaker 10: different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a

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Speaker 10: very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children

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Speaker 10: to get back at a love object, like I'm going

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Speaker 10: to kill our children because I'm mad at you. It's

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Speaker 10: hard to describe this without really sounding like it's trite,

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Speaker 10: but it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.

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Speaker 10: So it's either I'm going to kill the children to

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Speaker 10: get back at you, or I'm going to kill the children.

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Speaker 10: But they found a new guy, and I don't want

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Speaker 10: the children to be in the way.

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Speaker 1: Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want

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Speaker 1: you to hear the level of detail that she weaves

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Speaker 1: into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being

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Speaker 1: strapped in a car, can't get out. The car goes

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Speaker 1: underwater a muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming

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Speaker 1: for mommy as that car fills up with water till

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Speaker 1: you drown. Listen to our cut four crime online.

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Speaker 11: On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks

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Speaker 11: on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake.

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Speaker 11: She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells

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Speaker 11: him to call the police. A black man just carjacked

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Speaker 11: her at a red light. He had a gun and

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Speaker 11: she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,

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Speaker 11: three year old Michael and fourteen month old Out are

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Speaker 11: still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the

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Speaker 11: nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.

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Speaker 11: Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,

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Speaker 11: and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom

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Speaker 11: Findley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why

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Speaker 11: she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.

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Speaker 11: On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets

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Speaker 11: with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with

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Speaker 11: the press.

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Speaker 1: Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more.

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Speaker 1: There's more. Listen.

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Speaker 11: Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.

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Speaker 11: When she finally admits what she's done, there never was

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Speaker 11: a black man with a gun that stole her car

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Speaker 11: with her kids in the back. She now says she

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Speaker 11: went out for a drive with her sons buckled into

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Speaker 11: their car seats in the back. Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.

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Speaker 11: She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake

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Speaker 11: and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith

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Speaker 11: puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into

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Speaker 11: the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps

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Speaker 11: out and watches the car singing. Based on her directions

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Speaker 11: for where the car should be Scuba divers locate the

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Speaker 11: vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into

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Speaker 11: their seats.

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Speaker 1: Just let that so kim for just one moment, claiming,

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Speaker 1: you know, why is it Chrismindana that all these people

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Speaker 1: that want to commit suicide end up killing their children

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Speaker 1: or their family or somebody else they miraculously live.

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Speaker 5: I mean, just a horrific thought in of itself, right,

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Speaker 5: Nancy Amy Knight. I actually drove the entire route that

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Speaker 5: Susan Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for

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Speaker 5: her to change her mind and turn around. I mean

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Speaker 5: there were stop signs, they were you know, through residential neighborhoods.

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Speaker 5: And to think that she was saying to the public,

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Speaker 5: you know, or to the police when she initially confessed, well,

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Speaker 5: you know, I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't

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Speaker 5: do it, et cetera. So I jumped out. You know,

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Speaker 5: when you go to that boat ramp where these poor

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Speaker 5: little babies are strapped in those backseats and that car

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Speaker 5: is going down that ramp, I would submit to you

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Speaker 5: she had gotten out of that car almost immediately and

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Speaker 5: let that car go to your point. A couple of

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Speaker 5: minutes ago, and as that water started to fill that vehicle.

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Speaker 5: Can you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing

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Speaker 5: and the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.

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Speaker 5: It took about six I think between six to fifteen

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Speaker 5: seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within

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Speaker 5: a minute it was submerged.

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Speaker 10: Ynthea just shows how cold blooded she is. She could

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Speaker 10: stand on the shore look at the car submerged and

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Speaker 10: knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you

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Speaker 10: insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, who is this woman? Take a list an hour

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Speaker 1: cut three from crime online dot Com.

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Speaker 11: After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's

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Speaker 11: a baby on the way and the pair decided to

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Speaker 11: get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and

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Speaker 11: Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.

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Speaker 11: The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,

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Speaker 11: Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of

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Speaker 11: a wealthy mill owner.

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Speaker 1: Ahh, so that is who Tom Finley is. Okay, Tarrot Mallick,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from

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Speaker 1: Smith and Mallet, would that be motive she wants to

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Speaker 1: be with this rich guy.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I think, you know, She's painted in different ways

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Speaker 8: During the trial itself, and there was some conflicting testimony.

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Speaker 8: One of the theories of the case that was put

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Speaker 8: on and suspected was that she wanted to.

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Speaker 1: Be with Thomas Finley.

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Speaker 8: Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had

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Speaker 8: two kids in an oak way or in an attent

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Speaker 8: to get back together with Finley, who she was having

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Speaker 8: an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.

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Speaker 8: The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,

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Speaker 8: you know, she was someone who was an abused child,

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Speaker 8: she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she

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Speaker 8: was frightened of her husband, you know, And so I

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Speaker 8: think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And

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Speaker 8: it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,

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Speaker 8: but it's unfortunately not.

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Speaker 1: Here the ex husband of Susan Smith, the South Carolina

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Speaker 1: woman who drowned her two sons in a lake back

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Speaker 1: in October nineteen ninety four, reveals what the ex wife

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Speaker 1: said to him just after she killed their sons. She

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Speaker 1: plucks down and he says, quote casually, like you and

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Speaker 1: I sitting here says sorry, and that's about as far

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Speaker 1: as it went. That's revealing the degree of remorse or

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Speaker 1: lack thereof at the time. Susan Smith. What a saga,

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Speaker 1: Isn't it true? Dave Mack joining us from crime online

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Speaker 1: dot Com that Finley broke it off with her claimbing

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Speaker 1: he did not want an instant family.

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Speaker 2: He did, and Nancy, more to the point, are more

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Speaker 2: than just saying I don't want kids. There were other

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Speaker 2: things he stated in there about her and their relationship.

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Speaker 2: He also cited their different upbringings and that that was

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Speaker 2: a big stumbling block. Another one the way Susan Smith

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Speaker 2: acted and flirted with other men. He didn't like that.

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Speaker 2: So he mentioned three basic things that he really didn't

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Speaker 2: want an instant family. But these other two things were

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Speaker 2: mentioned as well, And one was her own behavior of

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Speaker 2: hitting on other men.

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Speaker 5: But she dismisses that.

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Speaker 2: In her thought process, blames it all on the kids

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Speaker 2: and thinks she's been getting back if she just get

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Speaker 2: rid of that. She doesn't address the fact that she

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Speaker 2: hits on men all the time.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand something, Dave Mack. She met Finley,

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Speaker 1: the son of the rich guy, when she and her

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Speaker 1: husband were what divorce separated? What separated?

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Speaker 2: They actually when they were married, they had several full

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Speaker 2: on separations where they were not living together, we're dating

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Speaker 2: other people. And yet they would then get back together,

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Speaker 2: and it was on and off for I think, I

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Speaker 2: mean after they had the last time, he was fourteen

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Speaker 2: months old. Well, this happened, so it was an ongoing

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Speaker 2: process in their relationship that breaking out getting back together.

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Speaker 1: Let me go back to doctor Bethany Marshall, what do

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Speaker 1: you make of this? It was always presented that Finley

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Speaker 1: broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,

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Speaker 1: But according to the letter he sent her before she

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Speaker 1: murdered her to little boys, it was a lot more

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Speaker 1: than that.

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Speaker 10: He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny

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Speaker 10: of the country and the court and saying, well, I

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Speaker 10: didn't really want her anyway, but just partially I think

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Speaker 10: a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for

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Speaker 10: a family and children and he was contemplating that. And

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Speaker 10: I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who

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Speaker 10: would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to

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Speaker 10: be with her. She would think, oh, you know, I'll

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Speaker 10: buy any dress. Oh, I'll go shopping.

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Speaker 1: Oh I'll buy some listings.

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Speaker 10: I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh, I'll just kill

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Speaker 10: my children. I mean she would just throw everything at

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Speaker 10: it to get him back. So I think she was

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Speaker 10: ambivalent about her That may have even incentivized her to

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Speaker 10: kill her children.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I obviously need to reword my question. There were

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Speaker 1: other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision

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Speaker 1: to break it off with her. Not only that he

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Speaker 1: did not want an instant family, but he did not

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Speaker 1: like the way she acted promiscuously with other guys. He

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Speaker 1: didn't want that.

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Speaker 10: I think some women relate primarily to men because they

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Speaker 10: feel they can seduce them, and I think this was

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Speaker 10: probably her Oh that the minute she met a man,

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Speaker 10: she would be flicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she

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Speaker 10: would try to attract them. She probably did that all

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Speaker 10: the time because this is a way of feeling important,

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Speaker 10: like she's a real person in the real world, and

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Speaker 10: she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If

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Speaker 10: it's sexual in an instant then they never become real

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Speaker 10: people to her. They're all just objects love objects who

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Speaker 10: flatter her.

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Speaker 11: Listen to our cut for Susan Smith is planning a

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Speaker 11: future with the best catch in the county when she

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Speaker 11: gets a Dear John letter from Dear Tom. He explains

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Speaker 11: he doesn't think the relationship will work because of the

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Speaker 11: difference in their upbringing, the way she acts towards other men,

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Speaker 11: and he doesn't want an instant family. He doesn't want

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Speaker 11: children right now. Susan dismisses her upbringing or her behavior

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Speaker 11: towards other men as possible deal breakers in the relationship,

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Speaker 11: and the only thing she sees is Tom Finley doesn't

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Speaker 11: want children, say she.

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Speaker 1: Ignores everything except the children part of the plant, and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days, Susan

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Speaker 1: Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic relationship

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Speaker 1: with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what does

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Speaker 1: that mean? Well, listen to our cut ten.

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Speaker 11: A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten

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Speaker 11: by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth

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Speaker 11: to an investigation into the matter. While there was no

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Speaker 11: proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that

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Speaker 11: she had four sexual encounters. Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor

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Speaker 11: at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.

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Speaker 11: Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and

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Speaker 11: was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.

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Speaker 11: Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined

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Speaker 11: for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old

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Speaker 11: Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In

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Speaker 11: two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also

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Speaker 11: pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced

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Speaker 11: to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan

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Speaker 11: Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagil after she tested

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Speaker 11: positive for an STD.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so she claims I was beaten and that spawns

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Speaker 1: an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She

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Speaker 1: was sleeping with various prison guards. Scott Morgan remind me,

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Speaker 1: what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator one.

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Speaker 7: Of the most horrible deaths that you can even begin

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Speaker 7: to think about. And the fact is the thing that's

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Speaker 7: always bothered me about this case, Nancy, is that with

439
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 7: Alex and Michael, and I think it's really important that

440
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 7: I say their names at this moment in time because

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 7: they are the victims. When they were strapped in those

442
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 7: little seats in the back of that Mazda, in that tight,

443
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 7: little confined place where maybe their mother had taken them

444
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 7: to McDonald's before, had taken them all over town, and

445
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 7: suddenly they're at the edge of a boat ramp and

446
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 7: they're thinking, you know, what's mama doing now? You know,

447
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 7: she gets out of the car, and as that car

448
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 7: is left and neutral and goes down that boat ramp

449
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 7: and begins to slowly sink beneath those dark waters out there.

450
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 7: You know, they found that car about one hundred and

451
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 7: twenty feet off of the shore. The dive team had

452
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 7: looked for it for some period of time. A car

453
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 7: was filled with water. Those kids were still strapped in

454
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 7: that back seat, and our reaction as humans, if we're

455
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 7: trying to catch our breath, is to fight. And just

456
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 7: imagine this, Nancy, they're strapped. We've all got babies in

457
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 7: our families that we've taken care of. We strapped them

458
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 7: in car seats. And you ever seen a child struggle

459
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 7: to get out of the car seat.

460
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:42,679
Speaker 1: They're tired of.

461
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 7: Being in it. Well, imagine that only water's creeping up

462
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 7: on you. Water's getting into your nose, your little mouth,

463
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 7: your eyes, You're running out of oxygen. Your brain is screaming,

464
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 7: it's on fire because there's no oxygen. You can't catch

465
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 7: your breath, and you have no idea. It's panic that's

466
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 7: setting in, and it would not have been. I just

467
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 7: wanted to spell any kind of fantasy somebody might be

468
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 7: having right now that this was a sudden and a

469
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 7: quick death. It wasn't. It was torturous. It was absolutely

470
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 7: horrific what these babies went through at that moment, Tom Nancy,

471
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 7: And I'm with you. I'm still to this day just

472
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,239
Speaker 7: befuddled why she's not sitting on death row and you know,

473
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 7: forever and ever she's getting going with her life. No

474
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 7: isn't she and those babies died, died at this monster's

475
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 7: hands out there out there in that.

476
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to

477
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped

478
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,119
Speaker 1: into her car. And I guess the only red light

479
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: in the county. And I feel okay saying that because

480
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: where I grew up, we didn't even have a red light.

481
00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: So out of the entire county, unknown assailant jumps into

482
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: her car at the one red light, takes her car

483
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: and murders her children. Okay, this is the woman these

484
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: guys want to be with. Speaking of them, there's a

485
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we heard about Cagel Caagile,

486
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: a supervisor at South Carolina Women's ci Correctional Institute, and

487
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: what happened with him. We know that he was ultimately

488
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: identified because Susan Smith turned up with an std behind bars.

489
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: But there's more. Take a listen to our cut eleven.

490
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: Does she not realize there are consequences to actions.

491
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 11: Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost

492
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 11: their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.

493
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 11: Rose says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition

494
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 11: that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling

495
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 11: him she thought he was the nicest officer at the

496
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 11: prison and that she was lonely. The guard says things

497
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 11: just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had sex

498
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 11: with Smith one time, but it cost him everything. He

499
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 11: was fired from the job, lost his pension, and after

500
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 11: pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was sentenced

501
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 11: to five years probation.

502
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: Take a listnour Cut twelve.

503
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 11: Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.

504
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 11: Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan

505
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 11: Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more

506
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 11: than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she

507
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 11: switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,

508
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 11: to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison

509
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 11: guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with

510
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 11: Smith at the prison, told the TV show Stellmate Secrets

511
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 11: when Smith was moved from one prison to another that

512
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 11: it was at that point where quote she could no

513
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 11: longer get the mail attention that she used as a

514
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 11: drug unquote, and instead turned to pill.

515
00:29:51,880 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: Which led to a series of drug infractions. Time Stories

516
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Just recently, Susan Smith tried to convince

517
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: a pardoner and parole born how sorry she was she

518
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: murdered her two boys, but according to her ex husband,

519
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: all she had to say to him was sorry, don't

520
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: know why I did it? Sorry, Wow, thanks mom. The

521
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 1: narrative her story that she projects is so different from reality.

522
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: Life has not passed her by. She committed double murder.

523
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: That that's what happened. It's not anyone's fault but her own. Absolutely.

524
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 8: I mean, and if life has passed her by, how

525
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 8: does she characterize what she did to her son? She

526
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 8: took their life away, They didn't even have the opportunity

527
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 8: to live a life. I mean, these were really young

528
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 8: kids here. And I think you know, the pattern of

529
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 8: behavior that she's exhibited, the infractions that she's picked up

530
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 8: while she've been in prison, I mean, all of this

531
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 8: doesn't tend to show that this is someone who has

532
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 8: been rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing

533
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 8: those signs of manipulation that she engaged in before she

534
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 8: was convicted in Census, you know, leading on the nation

535
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 8: for nine days, telling lies about what actually happened, telling

536
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 8: lies and printing fingers of people that didn't exist. So

537
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 8: this is a really deeply disturbed individual.

538
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and

539
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated

540
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be

541
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 1: very very charming. Think about Scott Paterson or doctor Martin

542
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: McNeil who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to

543
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: Susan Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy,

544
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: and that she quote always had a messy love life.

545
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: She's creating a fictional version of her life and people

546
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying

547
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic

548
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: interludes with her. Chris mcdonna, have you ever met a

549
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: charming murder defendant? Because I have absolutely Nancy.

550
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 5: And what's interesting about her is we have to always

551
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 5: remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past

552
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 5: behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she

553
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 5: has always throughout her entire case and through her life

554
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 5: here while in prison and even before prison, she always

555
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 5: sometimes projected the words of the day into her vocabulary.

556
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 5: And if we listen real carefully to the minutia of

557
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 5: what she said in the very beginning, whoever they are,

558
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 5: please bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but

559
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 5: she talks about one in terms of a description. And

560
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 5: now if we fast forward that to today, we have

561
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 5: six individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that

562
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 5: piece of a puzzle out. You know, that's for the

563
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 5: doctors to tell us what that's all about. But she

564
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 5: is utilizing that behavior still to this day, by talking

565
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 5: about money, by talking about sexual TIFFs there between the

566
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 5: two of them, and she hasn't lost a thought from this.

567
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: Leopard, you know, Joscott Morgan, maybe we just know too

568
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: much when it comes to murder, because when I think

569
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: of Susan Smith, I immediately think of being trapped strapped in

570
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: to a car as it's going down a ramp and

571
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: going underwater and seeing the water coming up on either

572
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: side and starting to pour in through the windshields. It

573
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: comes up around you and you can't get out. I mean,

574
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: the children in this case were three and fourteen months.

575
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 7: They never had stood a chance within this environment. And

576
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 7: here here's another thing that people might not be aware of.

577
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 7: After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,

578
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 7: one other element we have to consider. And again I

579
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 7: go back to the idea that we all have had babies,

580
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 7: you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got kids

581
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 7: and grandkids whom I love dearly. And what is it

582
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 7: the kids are afraid of? Late at night? It's darkness

583
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 7: and it would you would not have been able to

584
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 7: have seen your hand in front of your face. So

585
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,280
Speaker 7: not only are they absent a loving mother who normally

586
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 7: you would hope would take care of them, they're they're disoriented,

587
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 7: they're running out of breath, and it's dark, Nancy, it's

588
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 7: cold and it's dark down there, and that's that goes

589
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 7: to the level of horror that they're that they're you know, experiencing.

590
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: I've got a funny feeling, as was said by Ernest

591
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: t Bass on Andy of Maybury, you ain't seen the last,

592
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 1: ernest Ty Bass, I don't think we've seen the last

593
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: of Susan Smith. Good Bye friend,