WEBVTT - #456 Lauren Bright Pacheco with Frank Benitez 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.560 Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:13.480 been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes, 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.759 even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.520 to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.799 like to be their ally, the one outside committed to 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:27.520 fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:38.000 is wrongful conviction. On the evening of April twenty eighth, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.720 nineteen eighty nine, in Chicago, Illinois, two teenage boys were 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:45.760 shot and killed. Based on eyewitness description, police created a 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.400 photo array that contained a photo of eighteen year old 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:54.320 Frank Benitez, who loosely fit the assailant's description. Frank was 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.520 selected out of the lineup and ultimately coerced in designing 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:03.120 a false confession, despite no evidence, physical or otherwise tying 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.600 him to the crime. Frank was sentenced to life without 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.520 parole for murders he did not commit. His mother, Betty, 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.680 would fight for his release for thirty four long years, 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:17.640 and they are both joining us today to share their 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.880 experiences and thoughts. Thank you, Betty and Frank so much 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:22.520 for joining me. 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.920 How you doing no problem? 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.280 So tell me before any of this started. I'd just 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.640 love to hear about what life was before all of 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.280 this took place. So Frank, tell me a little bit 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:37.360 about when and where you were born. 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:42.400 I was born in Chicago. Where were we at, mom. 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.440 When you were born? Yeah, we were living on Lowell. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.480 Yeah. All four of us were born in the same hospital. 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.400 Same doctor, same hospital. So you grew up with three. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:55.640 Siblings, two brothers and a sister. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.200 And where were you and that rundown? 0:01:58.880 --> 0:01:59.680 I'm the oldest. 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.680 So when this happened, you were just eighteen. What kind 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.720 of social circle were you running around with? What kind 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.480 of friends did you have? 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.560 I think I had some okay friends. I might might 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.880 have not had the best of friends, but they were 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:21.960 okay for a little while. I was running with some 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.760 bad people. I mean it was a mistake on my part. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.360 But for the most part, our neighborhood was pretty quiet. 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:29.800 There wasn't a lot of stuff going on. 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:33.880 What were your goals at the age of eighteen? Where 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:35.560 did you see yourself in the future. 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.400 I really wanted to be an actor. My father was 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.520 trying to push me to be an actor, and I 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.480 was in a couple of plays when I was in school, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:45.200 that's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.880 be an actor, or I wanted to play sports. I 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:51.519 want to play football. And at eighteen, I didn't know 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:54.240 what I wanted to do. I know that I wanted 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.519 to be somebody. I wanted to get out of their neighborhood. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.320 I wanted to get my family out of the neighborhood. 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.680 So take me to why you wanted to get your 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.240 family out of the neighborhood. What was the dynamic like 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.240 in the eighties, How would you describe the neighborhood and 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.440 what was it that you wanted to get away from. 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.280 I mean, when we first moved there, it was really 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.560 a nice place to live. You can leave your bicycle outside. 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.799 But then after a while started getting worse and worse, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.519 and there was a little more crime. It was still quiet, 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.360 but you could see the riding on the wall that 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:27.640 it was going to be bad. 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.320 So things were getting increasingly more dangerous. It was just 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.000 not improving, all right. So take me to the night 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:40.200 all of this went down. At about eight forty five 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.640 on April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine, two fourteen year 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.720 old boys left their home on North Harding Avenue in Chicago, Illinois, 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.480 to walk to a corner store one block north, but 0:03:50.680 --> 0:03:54.360 unfortunately they never arrived. Both were shot in the head 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:57.440 before they got there. One was found right outside the 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.480 family home and the other was found a bit further 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.680 up the block, and neither one survived. When did you 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.280 hear that this had happened, frank And where were you 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:09.680 at the time it went down? 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:14.080 Well, I was at this one woman's house that I 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.880 had known for a little while. I used to stay 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:18.960 at her house all the time, and I used to 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.440 hang out with her daughter. You know, good people to 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:25.440 be around. And later on that night one of my friends, 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.560 his sister, came by and said, hey, be careful, there 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.560 was just a shooting. We just heard about a shooting. 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.080 We didn't know there was a murder or anything like that. 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:35.719 How far were you physically, Like, how far was the 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.640 house you were watching television at from where the shooting 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:40.520 took place. 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.960 Maybe three or four blocks so close? Yeah, it was close, Betty. 0:04:46.040 --> 0:04:48.080 Do you remember when you heard about the shooting. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:54.280 Yeah, I heard about it the next afternoon because, uh, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.080 Frankie was getting ready to go to the flea market 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.200 when police officers came knocking on the door. No big deal, 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.840 no big deal, and Frankie was more than willing to go. 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.599 I mean, you you hear and see how people run 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.800 hide everything. But no, Frankie was coming out of his 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.560 room and one of the police officers says, hey, you 0:05:21.640 --> 0:05:24.720 want to come with us. We're doing a lineup or something. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.200 And the police said we'll bring him back when we're done. Okay. 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.279 So the police came to your family's home and just 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.040 said that they needed your assistance. 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.520 They were just they were just asking you for assistance, 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:39.000 a little help. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.080 That was it. And tell me how that unfolded from 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.120 your side of the story, frank I. 0:05:45.120 --> 0:05:46.560 Mean they came and knocked on the door. I was 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.680 getting ready, like my mom said, for to go to 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.520 the flea market, and my little brother came said hey, 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.400 there's something. You know, there's a policeman at the door 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.520 looking for you. I'm like, okay, I'll go up there. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.840 And he started asking did you hear about this? And 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:02.680 you'll know anything about it? I'm like, I don't know 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:04.880 anything about it. I heard there was something going on, 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.000 but as far as if I heard anybody, you know, 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:09.920 if anybody had done it or like that, I didn't 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.960 know anything. And next thing, you know, he was like, 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:14.640 come on, we need to take you down to get 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.160 in the lineup. I'm like, okay, I had nothing to hide. 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:19.440 I was one hundred percent confident that I was going 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.760 to be released later that day after the lineup. 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:24.240 So what was your first lineup. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.279 After the lineup? When they told me they had picked 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.680 me out of lineup? No, that's impossible. I had nothing 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:32.599 to do with it. They questioned me. They asked me 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.799 where I was at. At first, it was just general 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.640 questions and then the pressure starts and as we know 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:40.599 you did it, you got picked out. I'm like, no, 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.159 that's impossible. They're lying. Oh they're lying. Yet you're wrong. 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.360 You're the one line. I'm like, no, i'm not. Where 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:47.680 were you at? And I told them where I was 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.839 at and they were like, no, you're lying. And it 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:50.919 was just constant pressure. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.039 Are you asking to go home? Are you asking for 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:55.479 your mother? 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.640 Are you asking for Yeah, I'm definitely asking for my mom. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:01.600 Like I want to talk to my mom, Like no, 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:03.160 you can't talk to her. You're never going to see 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.560 her again. I guess that's the kind of psychological games 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:07.040 that they. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:10.240 Play, and what kind of tactics were used against you. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.480 I didn't suffer any physical abuse, thankfully, but I think 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:19.080 the mental abuse was even worse because they pick on 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.080 something and then they just drive it. I guess they figured, Okay, 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.480 this is a mama's boy, let's go with the mom. Now. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.119 It's not like this went on for half an hour 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:29.920 or an hour. 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:32.760 No, I got to the station. Well, they picked me 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:38.560 up around twelve thirty, and then I was there all night. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:44.480 From what I remember, I signed the core statement at 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.120 four three thirty, four to thirty in the morning. So 0:07:48.160 --> 0:07:52.120 you're talking about, you know, sixteen plus hours. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:57.560 The two detectives who questioned you apparently already had a 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:02.320 history of doing this in terms of coercing false confessions. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.080 But did they have you write out something? Did they 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:06.800 write it out? 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:07.400 How? 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:08.840 What did you sign? 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.600 They wrote everything out. They wrote everything out. They said, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.640 we're going to prepare a statement for you that is 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.480 self defense. You'll sign it and you'll go home that 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:20.800 right after you sign it, we're going to get the 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:23.640 stage attorney over there so she can witness it, and 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:24.760 you're good to go. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.160 It didn't happen, so they made it sound like it 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.800 was just kind of a formality and that they were 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.560 going to make it look like it wasn't your fault anyway. 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.680 You just sign it, you get to go home, right? 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:36.480 Did you get to go home? 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:39.920 Obviously not. I spent thirty four years and four months 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:41.959 in prison, Betty. 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.920 What's going on on your end while your son's being 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.160 held overnight? What are you thinking? 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:54.200 Well, when he didn't come home by eleven o'clock at 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:58.480 night that night, that Saturday night, me and my mother 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.760 in law, we just started calling the police station. Every 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.960 police station we called, they said, who, We don't have 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.480 nobody here by that name. We couldn't even locate him. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:11.920 And you have to remember this is before cell phone though, 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.000 it's hard to get in contact with people. 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:18.400 I called so many police stations that it was unreal. 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.199 So you must have been panicked. You're like desperately trying 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:22.880 to find your son. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:29.040 Yeah, my mother, my mother in law, she was crying 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.880 because we couldn't find Frankie. It was just like, where 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.160 could he have been? Because he wouldn't stay out that late. 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.320 Frankie would come home at a decent time so that 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.440 we wouldn't worry about him. 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.640 So when did you next connect with your mom? 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:50.280 When I got to the Kokanie jail, I was able 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.880 to make a phone call. I called the house and 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.440 I can't remember what do you remember what time it was? Mom? 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:02.040 Oh, it was late because we were still trying to 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:02.800 find you. 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.520 Right, And I know when I talked to my grandmother, 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.640 she was like, what happened? What's going on? I'm like, why, 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.400 what are you talking about? She says, you were just 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.000 all over the news and I'm like, well, so I said, 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:15.520 let me talk to mom and I explain it to you. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.200 And I asked my mom what was going on? She said, yeah, 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.840 you're all over the news. And like, no, it can't 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:22.240 be right. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:26.880 I mean, no, wait, So Betty, you found out that 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:32.160 your son was arrested on the news on the news. 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:34.280 What was that like for you? 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.959 It was like what? Because at the same time we 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.200 were listening to it on the news, Frankie was calling 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:45.920 us and Frankie told me, he goes, Mom, I've been 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.480 arrested for murder. And I'm going what. My mother in 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.840 law is screaming, my father in law is trying to 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.679 console her. It was just a mess. And I had 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.240 told Frankie, I said, we've been trying to find you 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.880 all night. What happened? 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.760 How do you even explain that when you're eighteen, frank 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.240 how do you even explain to your mother that you've 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:11.360 signed a confession? 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.760 I mean I automatically told her I was scared, and 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.120 they told me I was going to go home, and 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:20.760 you know, she called me stupid, of course, but I 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.280 didn't know anybotter. I was eighteen and. 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.439 You'd asked for your mother. Yes, you didn't have a lawyer? No, no, 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.760 So what goes through your head at that point? Betty 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:33.560 as like a mom of four kids. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:34.960 They've made a mistake. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:36.079 You want your son back. 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.960 Yeah, And it was like, now, this is what I 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:45.880 found out afterwards when I was calling the police stations 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.839 to find out where Frankie was at, they said they 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:54.600 never had him until they booked him. They didn't even 0:11:54.960 --> 0:12:02.959 know anything. So it was it was it was difficult. 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.960 And then when I found out that he had been 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:14.000 booked for murder, I'm asking, Okay, what's what's the next step. 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:19.720 We didn't know anything about any of these processes. We 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.800 I mean, we're hillbilly's. I'm a hillbilly. I'm from the South. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.920 My husband and his parents were from Mexico. I mean, 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.120 I always grew up with the knowledge that the cops 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.840 were good, and then this happened. 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.040 Yeah, but I mean, I can't even imagine. Look if 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.600 this happened to me tomorrow, even knowing everything that I know, 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.040 You're not just up against one person, it's not a mistake. 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:50.600 You're up against an entire system, an entire system and 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:51.800 the media. 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:58.200 Yeah. I still have the paper clipping from the trial 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:00.280 that they did on my son. 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.080 I've kept it for thirty four years. How did you 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.840 get through that? Finding out your son was in prison, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.120 that he's confessed to a crime that he didn't commit, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.320 that nobody is going to help you get him out. 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:21.959 It was real hard because we didn't know nobody. If 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.040 you don't know lawyers, or if you don't know the 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:30.080 ins and outs of things, it's like, what do I 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:31.840 do now? What do I do now? 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:38.120 It's hard, It's very hard. So take me to the 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.600 first time you physically saw each other after this happened, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.080 because that's what really hit me. As a mother of 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:50.240 a son who's now about to turn twenty, he's still 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:54.000 a kid on some levels, and I just can't imagine 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.600 not being able to hug him. 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:02.000 Right right when we went to the bail hearing for him. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:07.120 I saw him for about two minutes. He walked out 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.920 from the back, stood in front of the judge. The 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.840 state was there, the public defender was there, and the 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.320 judge said no bail. And that's when they said he's 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:25.040 being charged with two counts of murder in the first degree. 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.440 The only thing I could do was cry. I couldn't 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:36.400 do anything. Oh and from there I saw him and 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:40.560 then they took him back to the back. Then we 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.560 went to the bond hearing and they said no bond 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.960 and we left there and it's like, what do we 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.320 do now? I mean, the next step, of course, is 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.800 to get a lawyer. They assigned a public defender to him. 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.160 At the first time I met that public defender, the 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.400 public defender says, they're going to look for the death penalty, 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.720 and I'm going what. And then he says, you know, 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.160 your best bet is having plead guilty. They'll give him 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.680 life in prison without the possibility of parole, but he'll 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:22.400 be alive. And I asked the lawyer, why would I 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.480 want to tell Frankie to confess to something he didn't 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.520 even do. After that, my husband and I we went 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:34.120 home and my mother in law asked me what happened, 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.040 and I told her we thought she was going to 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:41.560 have a heart attack. She was screaming and crying so hard. 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.880 We had to call other parts of our family to 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.960 come and help her because we didn't know what to do. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:55.040 So then my husband, he had a few friends that 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.160 worked for the Cook County sheriffs, so a couple of 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.960 them said, Okay, I will give you some names of lawyers, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.960 and you know, go from there. But if you don't 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:12.080 know lawyers, if you don't know what they're good at, 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.920 you just try to find what you can afford and 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:16.560 go with it. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.480 Had you ever felt that kind of helplessness before? 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:27.480 No? No, And here I am. I have to go 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.440 to work in order to feed my family, help pay 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:36.880 the bills. When all this was going on, and I 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.360 had talked to my employers and I told them I'm 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:43.080 going to have to be going to court for my son, 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:47.080 and we made an agreement because at that time, I 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:53.120 was like payroll, that was my job and I was 0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.840 the only one who did it. There was no backup. 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:01.080 So I would go to court with him every six 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.159 weeks because that's how they scheduled his court dates and 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.399 every time we would go to court, they would say, 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.000 we're not ready at we're still gathering evidence, we're doing this, 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.520 we're doing that, And every time we'd go it was 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:19.679 a different person from the state his visitation. He was 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.320 housed at what they used to call. 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:24.800 Max one Division one. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:28.359 Division one at eighteen and that's the prison that was 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.640 crumbling that they're tearing down or replaced. Now. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.800 Yeah, it was the original jail. 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.919 I mean, it wasn't call you on the phone anytime 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.520 you wanted. You had thirty minutes. They gave you a 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.080 list of what you could bring in, which was basically close. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:49.360 That was about it. 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.959 What was that transition like for you for that to 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:55.760 become your day to day reality. 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.919 I mean it was kind of rough. I'm being thrown 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.479 in a place where I know I don't belong, so 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.120 I mean I had to act like I was kind 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.760 of tough, and I'm not really tough. It's just every 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.680 day surrounded by people that probably did what they're locked 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.639 up for, and mostly murderers. I mean, back then there 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.439 was no internet, so you didn't know if these guys 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.160 were charged with sex offenses or anything like that. But 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:25.399 most of the guys there were locked up for murder. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:28.840 They were going to trial for murder. So I used 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.840 to think to myself, you know, what am I doing here? 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.159 What led me to this? And it was just it 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.280 was hard. I mean there were times when I was 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.880 by myself that I would cry, Yeah. 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:44.560 I mean eighteen and talk about wanting to be an actor. 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:50.480 Suddenly you have to act to stay alive. Basically I was. 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.480 I was in the role for my life. I had 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.800 to act as a certain part and it was kind 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.080 of hard because that's not me at all, you know, Yeah, 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:13.240 I'm bad, you know, leave me alone. 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:17.439 So you're held for almost a year and a half 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:18.280 before trial. 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.199 I got locked up in April of eighty nine and 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:28.080 then the trial was in August of ninety one, so 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:29.400 a little over two years. 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.399 So your mama described the place you were being held 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.160 awaiting trial is kind of crumbling. But what was that 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.720 like physically and what kind of a cell were you in? 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:40.720 Did you have a cell mate? 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:45.000 Yeah? I had a cell mate. Yeah, it's close quarters 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:47.320 and division one. They didn't have bunk beds, so you're 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:51.160 laying basically side by side with somebody else. So being 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.080 in the cell with somebody, they're using a washroom and 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.440 you know, doing what they do. It's just it's hard. 0:19:58.119 --> 0:19:59.680 You're living in your own bedroom. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.159 I can imagine Betty that every single time you went 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:08.640 to visit him, he was growing older and more mature 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:10.760 and kind of a heartbreaking way. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:12.959 Oh yeah. Yeah. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:17.399 Heading into the trial, did you still have the hope 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.800 that this was all a nightmare mistake? 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:27.760 Yes? Yes, it was a three day court trial with 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.000 a jury of twelve. One of the alternate jurors she 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:36.159 came out and says, there is nothing there. There is 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.200 absolutely nothing there at all. That kind of gave me hope. 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:46.080 So, Frank, just in terms of your defense, you have 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.800 proof that it was a coerced confession because it doesn't 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:57.399 align with the way in which the eyewitnesses testified to 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:03.679 the crime unfolding of an alibi. You have all of 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:08.320 the things you did during that day. You must have 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:12.280 felt like, how can they find me guilty? I'm innocent 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:13.600 and I can prove it. 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.359 Yeah, it's kind of hard. I mean, remember this is 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.640 back in the eighties, and everything that the police said, 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.399 the state's attorney said, people are gonna go with it. 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.720 They didn't have the cell phone cameras, they didn't have 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:28.360 people coming forward like they do now. And the whole 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:31.240 trial was frustrating. I mean, knowing that you're innocent, you 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.280 want to scream at the top of your lung, I'm innocent, 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:34.760 do not find me guilty. 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:40.880 What was it like though, to realize that the system 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.600 wasn't playing by the rules. For you both to sit 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.480 in that trial and know that officers of the law 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:49.959 were misrepresenting the truth. 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:57.480 It was frustrating because you're sitting there listening to people lie, 0:21:57.960 --> 0:21:59.560 lie on top of lie, and there's nothing you can 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:02.680 do it because the lawyers are saying, hey, we can't 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.919 point out their lives because it's just going to make 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:09.040 you look like a liar. So it's frustrating, and. 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:13.960 You had an airtight alibi. If we can just go 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.480 back quickly and describe your whereabouts that day, you picked 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.680 up a paycheck, You went to the mall, Then you 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:25.919 went to the barber shop to get a haircut, and 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.800 that's important, I want to bring that back up. Then 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.920 you went to your friend's house where you watched television. 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:35.800 Yeah, I still remember that. I still remember the movie 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:39.680 and the channel was on. There's Beetlejuice on HBO. I'll 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:40.639 never forget it. 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.240 And then you guys walked to the corner store to 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.040 buy limes, a TV guide, dish soap, and you were 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.480 back by seven forty five. I just thought it was 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:54.359 so interesting because one of the eyewitness statements that the 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:58.880 police turned around was that this woman saw the gunman 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:03.840 running and thought, he looks like he just had a haircut. Yeah, 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:08.720 I know, right, which just seems like such a frame 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.720 job to me. Who looks at somebody running by and goes, wow, 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.359 they look like they just had a haircut. It was 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.960 such a random thing to throw in there. So when 0:23:20.000 --> 0:23:24.040