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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

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Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

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Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

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Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

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Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. On the evening of April twenty eighth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, in Chicago, Illinois, two teenage boys were

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Speaker 1: shot and killed. Based on eyewitness description, police created a

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Speaker 1: photo array that contained a photo of eighteen year old

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Speaker 1: Frank Benitez, who loosely fit the assailant's description. Frank was

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Speaker 1: selected out of the lineup and ultimately coerced in designing

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Speaker 1: a false confession, despite no evidence, physical or otherwise tying

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Speaker 1: him to the crime. Frank was sentenced to life without

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Speaker 1: parole for murders he did not commit. His mother, Betty,

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Speaker 1: would fight for his release for thirty four long years,

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Speaker 1: and they are both joining us today to share their

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Speaker 1: experiences and thoughts. Thank you, Betty and Frank so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me.

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Speaker 2: How you doing no problem?

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Speaker 1: So tell me before any of this started. I'd just

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Speaker 1: love to hear about what life was before all of

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Speaker 1: this took place. So Frank, tell me a little bit

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Speaker 1: about when and where you were born.

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Speaker 3: I was born in Chicago. Where were we at, mom.

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Speaker 2: When you were born? Yeah, we were living on Lowell.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. All four of us were born in the same hospital.

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Speaker 2: Same doctor, same hospital. So you grew up with three.

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Speaker 3: Siblings, two brothers and a sister.

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Speaker 1: And where were you and that rundown?

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Speaker 3: I'm the oldest.

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Speaker 1: So when this happened, you were just eighteen. What kind

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Speaker 1: of social circle were you running around with? What kind

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Speaker 1: of friends did you have?

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Speaker 3: I think I had some okay friends. I might might

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Speaker 3: have not had the best of friends, but they were

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Speaker 3: okay for a little while. I was running with some

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Speaker 3: bad people. I mean it was a mistake on my part.

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Speaker 3: But for the most part, our neighborhood was pretty quiet.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't a lot of stuff going on.

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Speaker 1: What were your goals at the age of eighteen? Where

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Speaker 1: did you see yourself in the future.

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Speaker 3: I really wanted to be an actor. My father was

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Speaker 3: trying to push me to be an actor, and I

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Speaker 3: was in a couple of plays when I was in school,

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Speaker 3: that's what I really wanted to do. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: be an actor, or I wanted to play sports. I

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Speaker 3: want to play football. And at eighteen, I didn't know

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Speaker 3: what I wanted to do. I know that I wanted

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Speaker 3: to be somebody. I wanted to get out of their neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to get my family out of the neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: So take me to why you wanted to get your

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Speaker 1: family out of the neighborhood. What was the dynamic like

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, How would you describe the neighborhood and

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Speaker 1: what was it that you wanted to get away from.

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Speaker 3: I mean, when we first moved there, it was really

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Speaker 3: a nice place to live. You can leave your bicycle outside.

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Speaker 3: But then after a while started getting worse and worse,

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Speaker 3: and there was a little more crime. It was still quiet,

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Speaker 3: but you could see the riding on the wall that

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Speaker 3: it was going to be bad.

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Speaker 1: So things were getting increasingly more dangerous. It was just

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Speaker 1: not improving, all right. So take me to the night

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Speaker 1: all of this went down. At about eight forty five

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Speaker 1: on April twenty eighth, nineteen eighty nine, two fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old boys left their home on North Harding Avenue in Chicago, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: to walk to a corner store one block north, but

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Speaker 1: unfortunately they never arrived. Both were shot in the head

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Speaker 1: before they got there. One was found right outside the

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Speaker 1: family home and the other was found a bit further

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Speaker 1: up the block, and neither one survived. When did you

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Speaker 1: hear that this had happened, frank And where were you

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Speaker 1: at the time it went down?

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Speaker 3: Well, I was at this one woman's house that I

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Speaker 3: had known for a little while. I used to stay

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Speaker 3: at her house all the time, and I used to

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Speaker 3: hang out with her daughter. You know, good people to

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Speaker 3: be around. And later on that night one of my friends,

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Speaker 3: his sister, came by and said, hey, be careful, there

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Speaker 3: was just a shooting. We just heard about a shooting.

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Speaker 3: We didn't know there was a murder or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: How far were you physically, Like, how far was the

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Speaker 1: house you were watching television at from where the shooting

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Speaker 1: took place.

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Speaker 3: Maybe three or four blocks so close? Yeah, it was close, Betty.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when you heard about the shooting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I heard about it the next afternoon because, uh,

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Speaker 2: Frankie was getting ready to go to the flea market

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Speaker 2: when police officers came knocking on the door. No big deal,

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Speaker 2: no big deal, and Frankie was more than willing to go.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you you hear and see how people run

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Speaker 2: hide everything. But no, Frankie was coming out of his

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Speaker 2: room and one of the police officers says, hey, you

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Speaker 2: want to come with us. We're doing a lineup or something.

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Speaker 2: And the police said we'll bring him back when we're done. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the police came to your family's home and just

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Speaker 1: said that they needed your assistance.

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Speaker 2: They were just they were just asking you for assistance,

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Speaker 2: a little help.

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Speaker 1: That was it. And tell me how that unfolded from

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Speaker 1: your side of the story, frank I.

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Speaker 3: Mean they came and knocked on the door. I was

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Speaker 3: getting ready, like my mom said, for to go to

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Speaker 3: the flea market, and my little brother came said hey,

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Speaker 3: there's something. You know, there's a policeman at the door

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Speaker 3: looking for you. I'm like, okay, I'll go up there.

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Speaker 3: And he started asking did you hear about this? And

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Speaker 3: you'll know anything about it? I'm like, I don't know

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Speaker 3: anything about it. I heard there was something going on,

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Speaker 3: but as far as if I heard anybody, you know,

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Speaker 3: if anybody had done it or like that, I didn't

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Speaker 3: know anything. And next thing, you know, he was like,

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Speaker 3: come on, we need to take you down to get

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Speaker 3: in the lineup. I'm like, okay, I had nothing to hide.

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Speaker 3: I was one hundred percent confident that I was going

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Speaker 3: to be released later that day after the lineup.

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Speaker 1: So what was your first lineup.

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Speaker 3: After the lineup? When they told me they had picked

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Speaker 3: me out of lineup? No, that's impossible. I had nothing

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Speaker 3: to do with it. They questioned me. They asked me

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Speaker 3: where I was at. At first, it was just general

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Speaker 3: questions and then the pressure starts and as we know

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Speaker 3: you did it, you got picked out. I'm like, no,

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Speaker 3: that's impossible. They're lying. Oh they're lying. Yet you're wrong.

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Speaker 3: You're the one line. I'm like, no, i'm not. Where

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Speaker 3: were you at? And I told them where I was

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Speaker 3: at and they were like, no, you're lying. And it

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Speaker 3: was just constant pressure.

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Speaker 1: Are you asking to go home? Are you asking for

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Speaker 1: your mother?

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Speaker 3: Are you asking for Yeah, I'm definitely asking for my mom.

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Speaker 3: Like I want to talk to my mom, Like no,

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Speaker 3: you can't talk to her. You're never going to see

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Speaker 3: her again. I guess that's the kind of psychological games

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Speaker 3: that they.

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Speaker 1: Play, and what kind of tactics were used against you.

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Speaker 3: I didn't suffer any physical abuse, thankfully, but I think

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Speaker 3: the mental abuse was even worse because they pick on

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Speaker 3: something and then they just drive it. I guess they figured, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is a mama's boy, let's go with the mom. Now.

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Speaker 1: It's not like this went on for half an hour

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Speaker 1: or an hour.

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Speaker 3: No, I got to the station. Well, they picked me

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Speaker 3: up around twelve thirty, and then I was there all night.

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Speaker 3: From what I remember, I signed the core statement at

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Speaker 3: four three thirty, four to thirty in the morning. So

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Speaker 3: you're talking about, you know, sixteen plus hours.

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Speaker 1: The two detectives who questioned you apparently already had a

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Speaker 1: history of doing this in terms of coercing false confessions.

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Speaker 1: But did they have you write out something? Did they

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Speaker 1: write it out?

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Speaker 2: How?

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Speaker 1: What did you sign?

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Speaker 3: They wrote everything out. They wrote everything out. They said,

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Speaker 3: we're going to prepare a statement for you that is

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Speaker 3: self defense. You'll sign it and you'll go home that

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Speaker 3: right after you sign it, we're going to get the

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Speaker 3: stage attorney over there so she can witness it, and

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Speaker 3: you're good to go.

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Speaker 1: It didn't happen, so they made it sound like it

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Speaker 1: was just kind of a formality and that they were

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Speaker 1: going to make it look like it wasn't your fault anyway.

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Speaker 1: You just sign it, you get to go home, right?

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Speaker 1: Did you get to go home?

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Speaker 3: Obviously not. I spent thirty four years and four months

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Speaker 3: in prison, Betty.

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Speaker 1: What's going on on your end while your son's being

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Speaker 1: held overnight? What are you thinking?

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Speaker 2: Well, when he didn't come home by eleven o'clock at

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Speaker 2: night that night, that Saturday night, me and my mother

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Speaker 2: in law, we just started calling the police station. Every

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Speaker 2: police station we called, they said, who, We don't have

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Speaker 2: nobody here by that name. We couldn't even locate him.

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Speaker 3: And you have to remember this is before cell phone though,

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Speaker 3: it's hard to get in contact with people.

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Speaker 2: I called so many police stations that it was unreal.

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Speaker 1: So you must have been panicked. You're like desperately trying

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Speaker 1: to find your son.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my mother, my mother in law, she was crying

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Speaker 2: because we couldn't find Frankie. It was just like, where

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Speaker 2: could he have been? Because he wouldn't stay out that late.

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Speaker 2: Frankie would come home at a decent time so that

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Speaker 2: we wouldn't worry about him.

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Speaker 1: So when did you next connect with your mom?

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Speaker 3: When I got to the Kokanie jail, I was able

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Speaker 3: to make a phone call. I called the house and

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Speaker 3: I can't remember what do you remember what time it was? Mom?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was late because we were still trying to

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Speaker 2: find you.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I know when I talked to my grandmother,

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Speaker 3: she was like, what happened? What's going on? I'm like, why,

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Speaker 3: what are you talking about? She says, you were just

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Speaker 3: all over the news and I'm like, well, so I said,

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Speaker 3: let me talk to mom and I explain it to you.

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Speaker 3: And I asked my mom what was going on? She said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're all over the news. And like, no, it can't

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Speaker 3: be right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no, wait, So Betty, you found out that

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Speaker 1: your son was arrested on the news on the news.

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Speaker 1: What was that like for you?

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Speaker 2: It was like what? Because at the same time we

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Speaker 2: were listening to it on the news, Frankie was calling

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Speaker 2: us and Frankie told me, he goes, Mom, I've been

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Speaker 2: arrested for murder. And I'm going what. My mother in

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Speaker 2: law is screaming, my father in law is trying to

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Speaker 2: console her. It was just a mess. And I had

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Speaker 2: told Frankie, I said, we've been trying to find you

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Speaker 2: all night. What happened?

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Speaker 1: How do you even explain that when you're eighteen, frank

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Speaker 1: how do you even explain to your mother that you've

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Speaker 1: signed a confession?

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Speaker 3: I mean I automatically told her I was scared, and

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Speaker 3: they told me I was going to go home, and

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Speaker 3: you know, she called me stupid, of course, but I

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Speaker 3: didn't know anybotter. I was eighteen and.

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Speaker 1: You'd asked for your mother. Yes, you didn't have a lawyer? No, no,

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Speaker 1: So what goes through your head at that point? Betty

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Speaker 1: as like a mom of four kids.

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Speaker 2: They've made a mistake.

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Speaker 1: You want your son back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was like, now, this is what I

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Speaker 2: found out afterwards when I was calling the police stations

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Speaker 2: to find out where Frankie was at, they said they

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Speaker 2: never had him until they booked him. They didn't even

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Speaker 2: know anything. So it was it was it was difficult.

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Speaker 2: And then when I found out that he had been

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Speaker 2: booked for murder, I'm asking, Okay, what's what's the next step.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know anything about any of these processes. We

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Speaker 2: I mean, we're hillbilly's. I'm a hillbilly. I'm from the South.

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Speaker 2: My husband and his parents were from Mexico. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I always grew up with the knowledge that the cops

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Speaker 2: were good, and then this happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, I can't even imagine. Look if

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Speaker 1: this happened to me tomorrow, even knowing everything that I know,

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Speaker 1: You're not just up against one person, it's not a mistake.

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Speaker 1: You're up against an entire system, an entire system and

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Speaker 1: the media.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I still have the paper clipping from the trial

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Speaker 2: that they did on my son.

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Speaker 1: I've kept it for thirty four years. How did you

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Speaker 1: get through that? Finding out your son was in prison,

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Speaker 1: that he's confessed to a crime that he didn't commit,

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Speaker 1: that nobody is going to help you get him out.

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Speaker 2: It was real hard because we didn't know nobody. If

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Speaker 2: you don't know lawyers, or if you don't know the

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Speaker 2: ins and outs of things, it's like, what do I

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Speaker 2: do now? What do I do now?

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Speaker 1: It's hard, It's very hard. So take me to the

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Speaker 1: first time you physically saw each other after this happened,

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Speaker 1: because that's what really hit me. As a mother of

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Speaker 1: a son who's now about to turn twenty, he's still

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Speaker 1: a kid on some levels, and I just can't imagine

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Speaker 1: not being able to hug him.

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Speaker 2: Right right when we went to the bail hearing for him.

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Speaker 2: I saw him for about two minutes. He walked out

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Speaker 2: from the back, stood in front of the judge. The

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Speaker 2: state was there, the public defender was there, and the

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Speaker 2: judge said no bail. And that's when they said he's

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Speaker 2: being charged with two counts of murder in the first degree.

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Speaker 2: The only thing I could do was cry. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: do anything. Oh and from there I saw him and

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Speaker 2: then they took him back to the back. Then we

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Speaker 2: went to the bond hearing and they said no bond

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Speaker 2: and we left there and it's like, what do we

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Speaker 2: do now? I mean, the next step, of course, is

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Speaker 2: to get a lawyer. They assigned a public defender to him.

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Speaker 2: At the first time I met that public defender, the

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Speaker 2: public defender says, they're going to look for the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going what. And then he says, you know,

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Speaker 2: your best bet is having plead guilty. They'll give him

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Speaker 2: life in prison without the possibility of parole, but he'll

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Speaker 2: be alive. And I asked the lawyer, why would I

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Speaker 2: want to tell Frankie to confess to something he didn't

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Speaker 2: even do. After that, my husband and I we went

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Speaker 2: home and my mother in law asked me what happened,

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Speaker 2: and I told her we thought she was going to

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Speaker 2: have a heart attack. She was screaming and crying so hard.

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Speaker 2: We had to call other parts of our family to

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Speaker 2: come and help her because we didn't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: So then my husband, he had a few friends that

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Speaker 2: worked for the Cook County sheriffs, so a couple of

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Speaker 2: them said, Okay, I will give you some names of lawyers,

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Speaker 2: and you know, go from there. But if you don't

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Speaker 2: know lawyers, if you don't know what they're good at,

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Speaker 2: you just try to find what you can afford and

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Speaker 2: go with it.

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Speaker 1: Had you ever felt that kind of helplessness before?

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Speaker 2: No? No, And here I am. I have to go

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00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 2: to work in order to feed my family, help pay

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Speaker 2: the bills. When all this was going on, and I

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00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 2: had talked to my employers and I told them I'm

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Speaker 2: going to have to be going to court for my son,

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Speaker 2: and we made an agreement because at that time, I

294
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:53,120
Speaker 2: was like payroll, that was my job and I was

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00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 2: the only one who did it. There was no backup.

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Speaker 2: So I would go to court with him every six

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Speaker 2: weeks because that's how they scheduled his court dates and

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00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,399
Speaker 2: every time we would go to court, they would say,

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Speaker 2: we're not ready at we're still gathering evidence, we're doing this,

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Speaker 2: we're doing that, And every time we'd go it was

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Speaker 2: a different person from the state his visitation. He was

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Speaker 2: housed at what they used to call.

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Speaker 3: Max one Division one.

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Speaker 2: Division one at eighteen and that's the prison that was

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00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 2: crumbling that they're tearing down or replaced. Now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the original jail.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't call you on the phone anytime

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Speaker 2: you wanted. You had thirty minutes. They gave you a

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Speaker 2: list of what you could bring in, which was basically close.

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Speaker 2: That was about it.

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Speaker 1: What was that transition like for you for that to

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Speaker 1: become your day to day reality.

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Speaker 3: I mean it was kind of rough. I'm being thrown

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Speaker 3: in a place where I know I don't belong, so

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Speaker 3: I mean I had to act like I was kind

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Speaker 3: of tough, and I'm not really tough. It's just every

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Speaker 3: day surrounded by people that probably did what they're locked

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Speaker 3: up for, and mostly murderers. I mean, back then there

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00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,439
Speaker 3: was no internet, so you didn't know if these guys

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Speaker 3: were charged with sex offenses or anything like that. But

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Speaker 3: most of the guys there were locked up for murder.

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Speaker 3: They were going to trial for murder. So I used

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Speaker 3: to think to myself, you know, what am I doing here?

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Speaker 3: What led me to this? And it was just it

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Speaker 3: was hard. I mean there were times when I was

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Speaker 3: by myself that I would cry, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean eighteen and talk about wanting to be an actor.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly you have to act to stay alive. Basically I was.

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Speaker 3: I was in the role for my life. I had

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Speaker 3: to act as a certain part and it was kind

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Speaker 3: of hard because that's not me at all, you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'm bad, you know, leave me alone.

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Speaker 1: So you're held for almost a year and a half

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Speaker 1: before trial.

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Speaker 3: I got locked up in April of eighty nine and

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00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 3: then the trial was in August of ninety one, so

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Speaker 3: a little over two years.

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Speaker 1: So your mama described the place you were being held

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00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: awaiting trial is kind of crumbling. But what was that

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00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 1: like physically and what kind of a cell were you in?

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Speaker 1: Did you have a cell mate?

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00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? I had a cell mate. Yeah, it's close quarters

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00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 3: and division one. They didn't have bunk beds, so you're

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00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 3: laying basically side by side with somebody else. So being

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Speaker 3: in the cell with somebody, they're using a washroom and

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00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 3: you know, doing what they do. It's just it's hard.

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Speaker 3: You're living in your own bedroom.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine Betty that every single time you went

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Speaker 1: to visit him, he was growing older and more mature

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Speaker 1: and kind of a heartbreaking way.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Heading into the trial, did you still have the hope

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Speaker 1: that this was all a nightmare mistake?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, it was a three day court trial with

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Speaker 2: a jury of twelve. One of the alternate jurors she

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00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 2: came out and says, there is nothing there. There is

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00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 2: absolutely nothing there at all. That kind of gave me hope.

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Speaker 1: So, Frank, just in terms of your defense, you have

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Speaker 1: proof that it was a coerced confession because it doesn't

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Speaker 1: align with the way in which the eyewitnesses testified to

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Speaker 1: the crime unfolding of an alibi. You have all of

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Speaker 1: the things you did during that day. You must have

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00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: felt like, how can they find me guilty? I'm innocent

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Speaker 1: and I can prove it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of hard. I mean, remember this is

366
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 3: back in the eighties, and everything that the police said,

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00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 3: the state's attorney said, people are gonna go with it.

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00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 3: They didn't have the cell phone cameras, they didn't have

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00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 3: people coming forward like they do now. And the whole

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00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 3: trial was frustrating. I mean, knowing that you're innocent, you

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00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 3: want to scream at the top of your lung, I'm innocent,

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00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 3: do not find me guilty.

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Speaker 1: What was it like though, to realize that the system

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Speaker 1: wasn't playing by the rules. For you both to sit

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Speaker 1: in that trial and know that officers of the law

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Speaker 1: were misrepresenting the truth.

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Speaker 3: It was frustrating because you're sitting there listening to people lie,

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00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 3: lie on top of lie, and there's nothing you can

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00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 3: do it because the lawyers are saying, hey, we can't

380
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 3: point out their lives because it's just going to make

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00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 3: you look like a liar. So it's frustrating, and.

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00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: You had an airtight alibi. If we can just go

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00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 1: back quickly and describe your whereabouts that day, you picked

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00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: up a paycheck, You went to the mall, Then you

385
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,919
Speaker 1: went to the barber shop to get a haircut, and

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00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 1: that's important, I want to bring that back up. Then

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Speaker 1: you went to your friend's house where you watched television.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I still remember that. I still remember the movie

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00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 3: and the channel was on. There's Beetlejuice on HBO. I'll

390
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: never forget it.

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Speaker 1: And then you guys walked to the corner store to

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Speaker 1: buy limes, a TV guide, dish soap, and you were

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Speaker 1: back by seven forty five. I just thought it was

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00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: so interesting because one of the eyewitness statements that the

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00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: police turned around was that this woman saw the gunman

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00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 1: running and thought, he looks like he just had a haircut. Yeah,

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00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: I know, right, which just seems like such a frame

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00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: job to me. Who looks at somebody running by and goes, wow,

399
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 1: they look like they just had a haircut. It was

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00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: such a random thing to throw in there. So when

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00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: the jury headed into deliberations, were you both still confident

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00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: that this was a runaway train and the brakes were

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Speaker 1: going to get put on and this nightmare would be over?

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00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I mean from what I heard in the courtroom,

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Speaker 2: all the evidence that they put forth, everything that they said,

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00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 2: nothing matches. How can you find a person guilty if

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00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 2: everything doesn't match. The state is saying this, your lawyers

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00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: are saying this, and the two don't match at all.

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00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: It's like, how can this be?

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00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: There has to at least be reasonable doubt, right, right, right?

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00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 2: And when the jury went to deliberate an hour and

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Speaker 2: twenty five minutes and that's including lunch.

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Speaker 1: Rank. Now take me to the moment of the verdict.

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Speaker 3: I just had a feeling that it was going to

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Speaker 3: be bad, just the feeling. And then when they read

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00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: the guilty verdict, all I can hear was my sister

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom, just I've never heard of cry.

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Speaker 1: Like that, Betty. What was that like for you?

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Speaker 2: Heartbreaking? So hard?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was hard.

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Speaker 1: I cannot imagine the definition of powerless better defined. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing you can do, no, nope.

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Speaker 2: And then it's like, now what do I do because

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00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: you're still you're still naive but na to not understand

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00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 2: what the next steps will be because there's no rhyme

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Speaker 2: or reason to anything, because you've never had these problems before.

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Speaker 1: Take me to the sentencing.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's another court appearance and you go before the judge,

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Speaker 2: and the judge basically reads what the sentence is going

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 1: And Judge Barbara Disco denied the prosecution's request to impose

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Speaker 1: the death penalty correct and sentenced Frank to life in

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Speaker 1: prison without parole twice. Two life sentences.

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Speaker 2: Correct correct, two life sentences without the possibility of parole.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pacheco. You

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00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: can listen to this and all the Lava for Good

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00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing to

438
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Plus on Apple podcast Gusts.

439
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: Then that's when they placed you in different prisons, and

440
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: his first stop was Minard. It's an eight hour drive

441
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: from Chicago to Monards and you have to have a car,

442
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: you have to have gas money, food money, and travel time.

443
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, Frank, how does your day to day change immediately?

444
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 3: I mean, now you know you're surrounded by people that

445
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 3: are bad, I mean gangs ran the prisons back.

446
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: Then, you're in prison for life. How did you process

447
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: that mentally physically both of you?

448
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: Me personally, I always went into it where I'm coming

449
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 3: home one day.

450
00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: Yep.

451
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 3: I lived every day I'm coming home. I'm coming home.

452
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 3: And my mom was my biggest cheerleader. All my family was,

453
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,959
Speaker 3: but especially my mom. She used to tell me all

454
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 3: the time, you're coming home, You're coming home, Just give

455
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: us some time. Yep.

456
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: I didn't know it was going to take this much

457
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: time though.

458
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how does life change immediately for both of you?

459
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: After that sentencing? Betty, You've already said. Now it's pretty

460
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: much a day's journey there and back to go see

461
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: your son.

462
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, we would leave on a Friday night and we

463
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 2: would come home on a Sunday because of the long drive.

464
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: It would take one paycheck just to do that, and

465
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: I had to start sending him money so he could

466
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: buy snacks, necessities that he needed and stuff. And back

467
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: then it was collect calls. It's not like it is now.

468
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: So you're now fairly isolated in terms of access to

469
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 1: your family, and you're now trying to adjust a feeling

470
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: like in even smaller fish in a bigger, more dangerous sea,

471
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: because Menard is not known for being warm and fuzzy.

472
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: Nope, No, there was a lot of racism down there.

473
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 3: I had it easier because I look like I'm white,

474
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 3: and yeah I'm half white and half Mexican. But they

475
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: seen the white side and that's the way it was.

476
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 3: I mean, there was a lot of racism in minarn.

477
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: So what do you think was the biggest learning curve

478
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: for you once you got there? What was the most

479
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: difficult thing for you to navigate how.

480
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: To try to fit in? Because for me to be

481
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 3: kind of like them as a whin lady for me,

482
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 3: because I'm not that guy. It's you have to act

483
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: a certain way, and if not, you're going to get

484
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 3: eating the they'll they'll take your stuff or try to

485
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 3: do things, beat you up, or whatever it is. And

486
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: I'm glad I made it. It was tough. It was

487
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: not a day that went by that is this the

488
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 3: day that I'm going to die in prison?

489
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: Betty.

490
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: You having to hold down a job and and and

491
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: raise three other kids while you're trying to be present

492
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: and supportive of your son who's wrongfully convicted facing life

493
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: at this point, how do you, guys then have the bandwidth?

494
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: How do you even begin to go about fighting to

495
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: get him out?

496
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 2: On top of that, well, I started asking around about

497
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 2: are there organizations that can help. At that time there

498
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 2: there wasn't much help there because back then it was

499
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 2: you're guilty in jail. There ain't nothing we can do.

500
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: We had to start looking for other lawyers that would

501
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: right brief so that you could start going through the

502
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: other court processes to try to get the case back

503
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: into court, but none of them worked either. So then

504
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: I started looking to see if there was other people

505
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: out there trying to do the same thing. Trying to

506
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 2: find ways to help their members of their family who

507
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: they said were wrongfully convicted.

508
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: And you have to remember one thing, this is before

509
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: all these exoneration projects and innocent projects came about.

510
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: Right, The one that really really stood out, which gave

511
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 2: me hope was the Rolando.

512
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: Cruz because Cruise was exonerated in nineteen ninety five after

513
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: having been wrongfully convicted in nineteen eighty five of murder, rape, kidnapping,

514
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: and burglary, also in Illinois.

515
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 2: It was the first time I had heard and he

516
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: spent so much time on death row itself, and it

517
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: was like, if he can prove that he didn't do it,

518
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 2: then there has to be a way that we can

519
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: prove that Frankie didn't do it.

520
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: So in September nineteen ninety five, the first District Illinois

521
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: Appellate Court upheld Frank's convictions and sentence. Right, how difficult

522
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 1: was that?

523
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: That hurt? That hurt because the lawyer had showed that

524
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: there was still inconsistencies in the original trial which should

525
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,239
Speaker 2: have raised eyebrow. It did not, So then we just

526
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: like we just keep trudging and trudging and trudging.

527
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: How and when did you guys first hear about the

528
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: Exoneration project at the University of Chicago Law School and

529
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: the process heading up to that for you, like, where

530
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: are you getting the information of who to write, when

531
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: to write them, how to write them?

532
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: Just talking to different people that are locked up with me,

533
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 3: Like I just got in contact with these people and

534
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: they want to help, and I'm like, well, let me

535
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 3: get that information. So I mean, I've written to Northwestern

536
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: and University of Illinois or place in New York. I've

537
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 3: written a berry shehck to a lot of people. I've

538
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: written to Wisconsin, Michigan, Texas. I've written everywhere, and everybody

539
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 3: said the same thing. Well, unfortunately, we have too many

540
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 3: cases as it is, and it would be a disservice

541
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: to our clients now we took any more cases.

542
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: So what were the darkest moments for both of you

543
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: during that time? Because it had to be like there

544
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 1: were these little glimmers of light in the distance that

545
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: maybe this may be that right.

546
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: It was just never giving up. You really have to

547
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: keep in your head there has to be something you

548
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: are missing, that there's something that you haven't found yet

549
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: that will work.

550
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: But that said, was there a point where either one

551
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: of you thought I can't do this, that this is

552
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: just too.

553
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 3: Much for me. There was, I mean, and for me

554
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 3: it was.

555
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: When did you know that frank was going through the

556
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: dark period?

557
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 2: When I would talk to him, you could always hear

558
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: it in his voice. You could always tell in the

559
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: way he was saying things. And I kept telling him,

560
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: don't ever give up. There has to be something, Betty.

561
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: I see how upset you are, even when you're telling him,

562
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: no matter what, don't give up. Were you afraid that

563
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 1: he would?

564
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, because it was like he wasn't seeing the

565
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: light at the end of the tunnel. There was nights

566
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: that I would sleep, no sleep because I had talked

567
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 2: to Frankie and he would be saying, Mom, I can't

568
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 2: do this no more. And I would just kind of

569
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: yell at him and tell him you can't give up.

570
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: And I told him he had to believe because if

571
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: you give up, that's it. And I wouldn't let him

572
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 2: do that period.

573
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: And then you get a voice at the end of

574
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: that phone call telling you that you've got one minute left.

575
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah. We had a lot of those.

576
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: Did did your mom screaming at you help? In other words,

577
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: have you ever told her what kept you going?

578
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 3: So I tell her all the times. She's the one

579
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 3: that coming on.

580
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, my sisters, my kids, and they tell me the

581
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: same thing.

582
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 3: Mom.

583
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: You tell him, don't give up, don't give up, don't

584
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 2: give up. We're gonna kick his ass. And I don't, Frankie,

585
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: don't you give up. I'm gonna kick your ass when

586
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: you come home. Didn't I tell you that, Frankie all

587
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 2: the time, All the time.

588
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 1: I like that.

589
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: I kept telling him. God has a reason for everything

590
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: he does. He may not be the fastest, but he

591
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: gets there in his time.

592
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: Take me to the turning point, Frankie. In twenty twenty two,

593
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: represented by attorneys Joshua Tepfer from the Honooration Project at

594
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: the University of Chicago Law School and a non Swamenoffen

595
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: of the firm Lov and Lov, they filed a post

596
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: conviction petition seeking to overturn the convictions, and the petition

597
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: cited statements from two new witnesses who said they saw

598
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: the shooting and that frank was not the gunman. The

599
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: petition also noted that Bagookie and Schalk, who were the

600
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: two detectives who were also involved in your case, had

601
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: been involved in the wrongful murder conviction of a thirteen

602
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: year old Daddeus Jimenez, and testified falsely at his trial.

603
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: Take me to the moment. August twenty ninth, twenty twenty three,

604
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 1: probably sticks out to you both as an important day.

605
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: Can you a.

606
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: Bunch of us have it tattooed on us?

607
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: Really?

608
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah?

609
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 2: My daughter, Frankie, my son, my daughter in law, even

610
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: my daughter in law's parents got it tattooed on their arms.

611
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I love that. Yeah, me and the grandma's

612
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 2: we went together. We call it our senior citizen outing

613
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: because the other grandmas are in the sixties and I'm

614
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 2: in the seventies. Raye were yours?

615
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: Wow, Frankie, do you have the largest one of the family.

616
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: No, my other son I think has the largest one

617
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: on the back of his leg. Wow.

618
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: So you know, we just discussed, Betty, how the whole

619
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: family was sentenced. It must be that August twenty ninth

620
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: you were all freed in a different way, and frank

621
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: just take me to that day and how that played out.

622
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: So Judge Atcherson vacated your convictions and frank you were

623
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: released on bond pending a retrial. You had spent thirty

624
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: two years and fourteen days in print, thirty four more

625
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: than thirty four years in custody from the date of

626
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: your arrest.

627
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 2: Yes, he was picked up on April twenty ninth, nineteen

628
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: eighty nine. He was released on August twenty ninth of

629
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three.

630
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: And when did you realize you were walking out?

631
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: When the judge started talking, I was kind of like, yeah,

632
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 3: I might be coming out, and then she's like, no

633
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 3: cash bond. I'm like, oh, I'm going home.

634
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: What was it like walking out?

635
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: Everybody was crying.

636
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: Different kinds of tears this time. Oh yes, yep, so Frank,

637
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: tell me walking out.

638
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 3: I mean, who it was a relief. And then to

639
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: see the sea of people out there when I came out,

640
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: it was I finally get to tell my story.

641
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: And Betty, what was the first thing you said once

642
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: he was outside to him?

643
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: Thank God? I said, Remember I told you never give

644
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: up hope. As long as there's family and love, you

645
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 2: have it all.

646
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: And then in September of twenty twenty three, Cook County

647
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 1: prosecutors formally drop the charges against you, Frank. And then

648
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: in December of twenty twenty three, you were awarded a

649
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: certificate of innocence and now get to set about living

650
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: your life finally again.

651
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: What are your.

652
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: Goals and your hopes and your dreams for the.

653
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: Future right now? I just take it by day by

654
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: day and I just live life. That's all I'm gonna

655
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 3: do is just enjoy everything, everything that I can and

656
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 3: try to do everything.

657
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

658
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

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Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,

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Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

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Speaker 1: is Kara Kornhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by

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Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

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Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

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00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

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Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

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Speaker 1: Bright Pachecko. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with the sicknes No company Number

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Speaker 1: one