WEBVTT - Show We’re Loving: Alive with Steve Burns 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:15.080 Hey there, you are great to see you, come on in. 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:26.040 Welcome to Alive. So, okay, would you consider yourself to 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:44.559 be a normal person? Hmmm mm hmmm mm hmm, I'm 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:46.120 making tea? Do you want? You want tea? 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:55.440 Okay, I'd say most of the time, I consider myself 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.760 to be a relatively normal person. 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:03.000 But then I remember that I'm a fifty one year 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:07.200 old eccentric bachelor who has elected to live entirely alone, 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.759 off grid in the woods, halfway up a mountain like 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:17.160 some bald woodland cryptid. And I think maybe not so much. 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.560 I ask because you know, there's a lot of talk 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:31.560 about neurodivergence autism especially, and you know the way that 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:38.399 people who think or communicate differently relate to the rest 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:44.080 of us. Here's your tea. And I know that Blues 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.080 Clues had a really profound impact on the autistic community, 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:57.240 and I've always wanted to know why. In anyway, everyone's different, right, unique, 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:02.400 So it's not always so easy to tell who's neurodivergent anyway, 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:11.280 And what does the term even mean, you know? And 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:27.000 also who gets to decide what's normal? What do you think? 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:42.320 Huh huh? Okay, let's go Okay, all right, So. Desiree 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.160 Jones is an Associate professor of psychology and director of 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.640 the SHINE Lab that stands for Stigma, Human Interaction and 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.640 Neurodivergent Experiences at the University of Maryland. Before that, she 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:59.120 was a President's Postdoctoral Fellow, which sounds incredibly official to me. 0:02:59.840 --> 0:03:04.840 She started at Wellesley studying both neuroscience and psychology. Apparently 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.920 one brain degree wasn't enough. Then she went on to 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.120 the University of Texas at Dallas for a master's and 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:15.320 applied cognition in neuroscience, followed by a PhD in psychological sciences. 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:22.000 Some people collect funko pops, desire collects diplomas. Apparently her 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.280 research is about autism, stigma, and intersectionality, basically all the 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.480 ways in which society decides who's normal and who isn't. 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:33.960 And in twenty twenty three she landed on the Forbes 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:38.000 thirty Under thirty Science list, which is to say, she's 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:42.120 one of those extraordinarily accomplished people who is also simultaneously 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:51.200 very very young and therefore totally intimidating to me. She's here, Hey, 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:53.840 how you doing today, Hi, Steve. 0:03:53.920 --> 0:03:56.400 I'm really great. I'm so glad that I could catch you. 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:58.600 I am so excited that you're here. You're so kind 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.280 to join us. Do I call you Desire or do 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:02.120 I call you DESI? 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:06.680 Yeah, I go buy DESI usually especially with friends. And yeah, 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:07.880 hopefully we can be friends. 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:09.320 Are we friends? We're friends? 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:09.800 I hope. 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:12.480 So I hope I can tell everyone I'm friends with you, Steve. 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:14.240 I think, well, yeah, that would earn me a lot 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:15.000 of credibility. 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.320 Listen, you came over to my window. You're willing to 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.919 talk to me about stuff I don't know anything about, 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:24.400 and you're super cool and super nice and we're totally friends, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.080 and all right, thank you for being here. Thank you 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.279 so full disclosure. This is not a topic I know 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:34.960 a whole lot about, but it is something I would 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.719 like to know a whole lot about, in part because 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.040 of my former job. And we can get into that, 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.960 but before we get too far, I want to talk 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:50.640 about this term neurodivergence, because it's something I hear all 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.000 the time. We all hear all the time. I hear 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.200 a lot of people say it, but I feel like 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.760 people mean a lot of different things when I'm not 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.159 sure everyone's talking about the same thing. So what do 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.240 you think it is. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.320 Yeah, so I think you can't really talk about neurodivergence, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.320 which without talking about this broader topic of neurodiversity, right, 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.720 so starting at the basic building blocks for that. You know, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.200 this is something I talk a lot about with students 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:18.920 and things like that because you know, a lot of 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:20.640 people are interested in learning about this. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.760 But basically, you know, if you think. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.320 About the world, I think one of the things that 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.680 makes it so beautiful is that we're all different from 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:31.080 each other. You know, we have people different races, different backgrounds, 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.360 different heights, ages, things like that. Neurodiversity applies that idea 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.320 to our brains. It's kind of a framework looking at 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.640 you know, different types of brains. So you have neurotypical people. 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.560 These are people whose brains function in what's seen is 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.119 like a typical way. Society was kind of built around 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.159 their needs. You know, the way that they process the 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.560 world and respond to things and behave is seen as 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.880 like typical behaviors within like a culture or the world 0:05:56.880 --> 0:06:00.000 around us. People whose brains process things a little diff 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.960 diferently might behave a little differently from those norms. They're 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:08.680 called neurodivergent. So this is a pretty broad term broad people. 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:10.560 I think, you know, like you were saying, a lot 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:13.720 of people can define it differently, So sometimes you might 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:17.440 see it used to define really only like developmental conditions 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.600 like autism and ADHD especially you know, I'm an autism researcher. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.200 I have ADHD, so those are kind of in my framework. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:26.560 But you know, if you think about it, people with 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.520 things like mental health conditions, mental illness that also affects 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:34.039 how you experience the world, how you process things. You know, 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.120 people with anxiety or depression or schizophrenia, and they're often 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.960 judged for their behaviors and in need of like extra 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.480 supports and things like that. And then you can even 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.720 go as far as talking about people with acquired things 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.400 like people who have had strokes, things like that. You know, 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.359 that affects the brain, that affects how you experience the 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.600 world around you and respond. So I think that I'm 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:00.279 not trying to gate keep you know, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. I 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.960 think that you know, if a person is experiencing these difficulties, 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:08.000 they're kind of common across these different types of conditions. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.600 Then like, I think it's fine to label yourself as neurodivergent. 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.040 Right on. I like what you're saying. What I'm what 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.680 I'm hearing you say, at least certainly in the beginning 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:24.840 of that is it's less about differants and more about 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:30.680 the same sort of diversity that is part of human diversity, right, 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.600 Like in a way it when you think of neurodiversity, 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.520 it's like biodiversity, is this is a function of the 0:07:37.600 --> 0:07:40.880 human condition. There is diversity, right, So of course there 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:42.480 is neurodiversity, right. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.280 I just want to say one thing, you know, I 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.760 think that a lot of times people will take that 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.120 diversity thing and kind of run with it and say, oh, 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.600 it's not a disability, you know, then everyone's a little 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.040 autistic or things like that. But it also can be 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.080 very disabling because of the social structures that we have 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:57.800 in our world. 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.119 What are some ways in which it might actually be 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:02.760 a strength, like in school or in work, or in 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:03.920 a relationship or something. 0:08:04.120 --> 0:08:06.559 One of the big things is because you can think 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.840 differently because you're neurodivergent. 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.560 You can be really creative oftentimes. 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:14.400 So a lot of neurodivergent people find that they really 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.920 excel at creative things like the arts or being organized 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.080 and following a routine and they can be really good 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:21.760 at things like programming because of. 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.960 That, is there sort of a dynamic of trade off 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.680 involved in that. You know, if there's you know, a 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.120 hyper focus and a hyper utility in one area, does 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:33.000 that ever mean there's a deficit somewhere else. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.360 I'd say that one of the biggest problems with hyper 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.199 focus is that it can you know, it doesn't necessarily 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.800 create deficits, but it can create problems in social relationships. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.240 If you're you know, really excited and enthusiastic about something, 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.360 you're really into it, you want to talk about it 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.200 a lot to someone. I'm someone who's a big talker, 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:55.120 but they're just not interested. You know, they're like very bored, 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.520 and you know they're like, oh my gosh, this person 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:00.000 is still talking about this. You know, that can make 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.680 get difficult to form relationships, and that's often a response 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.920 that neurodivergent people often receive. Another thing is if you're 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.680 you know, two into something, it can mean you know, 0:09:09.720 --> 0:09:13.560 you have an aspect of perfectionism. So maybe you're you know, 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.960 really detail oriented. You're like, I want to find all 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.559 the research about this area for this project and get 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.280 it perfect but then it's hard to meet deadlines and 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:22.040 things like that. 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.199 Oh yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, I 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.320 live off gride in a house halfway up a mountain. 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.520 You know. Uh, you know I I am. I am 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:38.960 an introverts introvert, you know, and it does feel at times. 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.240 It's not that I don't prefer to be around people, 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.680 it's that I cannot. You know that there are times 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:53.160 where we're functioning around people would be not really an 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.959 option almost you know, it's hard to describe, but I 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:57.720 feel like, you know what I'm talking about. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.240 I do, and you know, I think this is really 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.560 common for neurodivergent people. So it's something you know, they 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:08.480 call it autistic burnout for autism, but a lot of 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:10.840 it's because I don't know, maybe you can relate to this, 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:13.200 or maybe people at home can relate to this. It's like, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:17.319 when you're interacting with people, you can't always be fully yourself, right. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.720 Maybe you can think of a situation where you've had 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:22.800 to kind of perform for people, like you're meeting a 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:27.080 partner's parents for the first time, or you're at an interview, 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.200 or you're guest on a podcast, so you know, you 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.400 feel like you have to be your best version of yourself. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.680 Neurodivergent people feel like that pretty much, like all the 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:37.360 time and all of their interactions. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.160 They're taught to like hide who they are. It's called masking. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:41.840 Yeah, tell me about masking. 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:42.480 Yeah. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.920 So it's kind of like a sometimes conscious, sometimes just 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:49.320 automatic response to a lot of the stigma and discrimination 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:53.720 and social challenges that neurodivergent, especially autistic people face. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:55.640 So they might you know. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:58.280 Make an effort to se debstrate, change the tone and 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:00.720 volume of their voice. They might have a script that 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.840 they follow in conversations to make it. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:03.840 More comfortable for them. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:10.240 You know, they're basically altering their social kind of abilities 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.800 and social performance to better fit in and gain acceptance. 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.360 Like I said, it can be completely non conscious, though, 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.600 but it can lead to a lot of challenges, right. 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.440 It's exhausting, you know, not being able to be yourself 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:22.160 around people. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:27.640 Oh my goodness, I mean neurotypical neurodivergent. I think everyone 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:31.960 can relate to the weight of that feeling, you know. 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.319 Yeah, exactly Why. 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:39.120 Does it seem like diagnoses are rising so fast? Is 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.480 it because that it is more common or is it 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.400 because there's more focus on it. 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.360 We do see that, you know, diagnoses are rising in 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.080 large part. You know this is really because we've gotten 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.480 much better at diagnosing people. So I think we've gotten 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:55.880 better at detecting autism earlier, so they can do it 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.720 like two to three years of age pretty reliably now, 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:01.319 and we're also going to better at diagnosing it in 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:05.560 populations that you know, don't fit the kind of standard 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.120 stereotypical model. So like what like it was frequently white males, 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.320 like little boys, there used to be a four to 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:16.600 one gender ratio, and then autistic people of color. 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:18.439 A lot of people of color have. 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.960 Been misdiagnosed as having like behavioral conditions first and then 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.400 they later go on to get an autism diagnosis. They've 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.280 also made some changes around the diagnosis of autism, so 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:30.920 there used to be separate conditions. Like maybe you've heard 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:35.079 of Asperger syndrome that's now under the umbrella of autism, 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:43.319 but until twenty thirteen, it was a separate diagnosis. 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:49.560 Tell me more about why girls in particular and people 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.960 of color so often get missed in their diagnosis until 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:55.560 later in life. What's that about. 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.079 Yeah, so a lot of research has shown that can 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.120 really a lot of can be attributed to stigma, just 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.720 both kind of stereotypes about what autism looks like, and 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.760 then also some bias and providers. 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:09.360 What biases are you talking about? 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.800 Specifically, there's a bias about like black families, So they 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.080 were making judgments on family structures, like maybe both parents 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.960 are working and you know, the kids being taken care 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.200 of in daycare or things like that, or they're not 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:26.800 in like a traditional preschool things like that, or you know, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.760 the provider kind of making judgments about behaviors that might 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:33.200 be typical for black children versus white children. 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.240 There was another study where they kind of, you know, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:36.920 it wasn't. 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.520 Actual kids, but they gave a description of like behaviors 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:43.320 that were atypical, and they asked students to like identify 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.000 a diagnosis. When they labeled the kid is white, the 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.480 students were more likely to say that kid was autistic 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:50.760 versus if the student or if the kid was labeled 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:51.320 as black. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.319 Students usually attributed it to. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:57.599 Like it's called oppositional defiant disorder or like behavioral conditions. 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.400 What is oppositional defiant disorder? 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.559 Yeah, so that's a disorder that's diagnosed often in childhood 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.760 and it's really you know, kind of having these defiant behaviors. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.200 So it's you know, kind of doing not what you're told, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.600 or these externalizing, acting out types of behaviors. So it's 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.360 like kids who might be very resistant in nature, or 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.040 kids who might have hitting and behaviors like that. 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:25.600 So I want to be clear. So this this paper 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:30.360 determined or found that later in life, someone who might 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:34.680 have been dismissed as having you know, oppositional defiance disorder 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.480 actually met the criteria for autism. 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.560 Yes, there have been several studies that have shown that, 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.000 you know, black children are more likely to have a 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.120 more diagnoses before reaching the autism diagnosis. That's kind of 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:50.200 their final diagnosis, more time to reach an autism diagnosis, 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.000 so they're diagnosed at a later age, and then you know, 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.560 more misdiagnoses at first, so things like ADHD or behavioral difficulties. 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.520 That does sound like bias, Yeah, exactly, So that's kind 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:04.680 of why we talk about that. For girls, it can 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:07.440 be a little more complicated. And you know, again this 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.640 can also relate to people of color and stuff. We 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.080 think that girls might mask more so you know, maybe 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.480 they're able to fly under the radar. Yeah, so that 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.600 can be a thing. Maybe you know, doctors aren't as 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.480 good at recognizing when someone's masking. That's often also the 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.560 case with like black autistic people. You know, their top 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.240 two mask and conceal their behaviors to protect themselves. 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:30.680 So that can make it harder. 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.120 You know, on top of these biases, you know, just 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.800 some of these differences in what a behavior might look 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:38.240 like in these assessments. 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.200 I wonder if young girls are sort of asked to 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.480 mask anyway, so they might be they might be good maskers. 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.560 Yeah, And you know, when we look at autistic girls, 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.080 we do see, like, first of all, girls are kind 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.720 of socialized to play with toys like dolls and stuff 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.720 like that, and those are some of the tools we 0:15:56.840 --> 0:15:59.920 use in the like autism diagnostic assessment that seems like 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.760 gold standard, it's called the ADOS. So you know, maybe 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.400 they're more likely to be interested in those social toys 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.720 or another study showed that, you know, autistic girls often 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.600 have interests that are like more typical, but they're just 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.960 really intense in nature, whereas autistic boys might be more 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:23.640 interested in kind of more obscure types of things interesting. 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:31.080 Do do Queer and autistic identities overlap in similar ways, 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:35.480 you know that that are meaningful for belonging, support and 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:36.160 everything else. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.680 Yeah, so this unfortunately is an area that's like very 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.520 much pretty new in research. There wasn't a lot of 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.960 focus on LGBTQ plus autistic people. You know, they were 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.800 kind of just like I said, autism research was very 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:54.000 like homogenous for a while. So I think one thing 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.400 that's really interesting that's come out of it is that 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:01.000 a lot more autistic people are transgender or non binary 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.399 compared to the general population. And yeah, so even you know, 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.439 within people who I've worked with in my study that 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.520 you know, I don't aim to recruit for that, but 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.240 in my dissutation, like I want to say, like a 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.919 close to a third of people identified as non binary. 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:19.560 And there's a theory that maybe autistic people you know, 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:22.520 don't perceive these gender norms in the same way because 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.080 you know, of their differences in thinking, you know, it 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.040 might be something like that. You know, we haven't really 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:30.240 I think the research is just kind of getting started 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.560 in it and trying to figure this out. But yeah, 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.600 a lot of autistic people do identify as trends or 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:37.360 non binary. 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.560 That is I would love to read about that that 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.359 is really interesting research. So they're thinking perhaps they don't 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:51.320 perceive gender in the same way and then also don't 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:53.240 apply that perception to themselves. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.199 I think we find a similar thing for you, like 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.960 being a sexual or a romantic. That's also higher prevalence 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.480 foreign eurodivergent people, so you know, maybe they also you know, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.440 it could be a brain thing. It could be kind 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.920 of a combination of like brain and like socialization. There's 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.040 not enough research really to say what the cause of 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:14.760 this is. We're just you know, seeing this consistent pattern 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.399 of you know, different ways of thinking about things like 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.080 gender and sexuality and autistic people. 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.280 You said asexual and a romantic. What is the distinction 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.000 between those two. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.440 So when we think about a sexuality, that's really referring 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.640 to sexual desires, so you know, it's not about sexual behaviors. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.439 Some asexual people aren't sexually attracted to people, you know, 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.600 they they don't form those sexual attractions. Some people call 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.639 themselves like demisexual, so that means that they only form 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.760 you know, these again sexual attractions to certain people, like 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.439 once they've known them a little better. In terms of 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.160 a romantic that's again that kind of like attachment behavior. 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.720 So when you're in a romantic relationship. I think the 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.000 big way to distinguish this is, you know, you can 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.920 of like casual hookups that would be like sexuality, sexual behaviors, 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:08.720 sexual attraction, whereas like a romantic relationship that would be 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.520 you know, that romanticism. You know, you can have a relationship, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.560 a very successful relationship with someone that's romantic where you 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.719 don't engage in sex or sexual behaviors for whatever reason, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:22.440 just like you can have sex without that romantic attachment. 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.320 Yes, I was about to ask because that was possible 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:30.439 asking for a friend, of course, But what is what 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.960 is the double empathy problem? This is something that I 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.240 hear a lot about in this conversation. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:37.720 When we look at research. 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:39.560 You know, there are a lot of studies looking at 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.320 interactions between autistic and non autistic people and comparing them 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.719 to interactions between you know, just two autistic people or 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:48.040 two non autistic people. 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:50.320 And interestingly, a lot. 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.199 Of this research shows that, you know, when you have 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.919 two autistic people, they don't have a lot of these. 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.080 Difficulties in their interactions. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.600 They can understand each other better, you know, understand what 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.320 they're saying, what they're expressing, and they get along a 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.399 little better, and these interactions, you know, they rate them 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:04.320 pretty positively. 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:06.600 If autistic people just had. 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.320 Broad social deficits, you wouldn't expect that, right, You'd expect 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.520 two autistic people to you know, have a really poor interaction, 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.200 and that's not what we're seeing in research. Many times, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.959 these two autistic people get along, you know, just as 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.000 well as two non autistic people and can communicate just 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.359 as effectively. So the double empathy problem is really saying 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:29.040 that it's not just autistic people having trouble understanding and 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:31.080 empathizing with non autistic people. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:32.640 It's a two sided thing. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:35.800 You know, non autistic people also have trouble you know, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.639 understanding and interpreting autistic communication. 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:43.040 Right, So how can we do that? How can we 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:46.520 better interpret and understand the autistic community. 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:48.560 I think the biggest thing is just getting to know 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.359 and kind of understand autistic people around you. So we 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.760 have some research and we've looked at how people kind 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.320 of perceive autistic people, like the. 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:00.320 Stereotypes I have. 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.280 We call it, like first impressions would show a ten 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:06.040 second video of autistic people. You know, sometimes we don't 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:08.359 even say that they're autistic. We ask people, what do 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:09.960 you think of this person, like, would you hang out 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:12.399 with them? Those types of things, And we find that 0:21:12.480 --> 0:21:16.280 people who have more knowledge about autism and also have 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:20.040 you know, more firsthand experience with autistic people, both of 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:23.439 those things are associated with writing autistic people better. So 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:25.680 I think just you know, being able to you know, 0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:29.439 whether you have autistic friends or you know, you follow 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.520 people who are autistic online, you can learn to understand 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:34.360 them just like you can, you know, learn to understand 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:37.440 how your friend from a different culture might express themselves differently. 0:21:37.720 --> 0:21:40.480 So I think that that's social contact, and you know, 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:43.720 interacting with and learning from and listening to autistic people 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:45.439 is a really important component of that. 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.480 Yeah, that's what I found in my lived experience. And 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:50.639 I have some autistic friends, you know, I think we 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:54.600 all do, and that's what I found. It's just like, oh, 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:58.320 it's just a slightly different code. I get it, you know. Yeah, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.760 and listening as been big a big part of that. Yeah, 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:06.520 So why do you think people still assume that autism 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:08.240 means lack of empathy? 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.080 One thing that I found was really common was that 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.480 people often learned about autism from you know, like TV 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.080 shows and things like that. And I think If you 0:22:17.080 --> 0:22:19.919 think about autistic characters that are represented, it's often like 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:24.040 a very small range of different people. You know, there's 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.760 much more diversity and actual autistic people, so you often 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:31.320 see this kind of like Asperger's phenotype, where it's. 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.400 Like a white guy who's like. 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.000