1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Hey there, you are great to see you, come on in. 2 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Alive. So, okay, would you consider yourself to 3 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: be a normal person? Hmmm mm hmmm mm hmm, I'm 4 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: making tea? Do you want? You want tea? 5 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 2: Okay, I'd say most of the time, I consider myself 6 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: to be a relatively normal person. 7 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: But then I remember that I'm a fifty one year 8 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: old eccentric bachelor who has elected to live entirely alone, 9 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: off grid in the woods, halfway up a mountain like 10 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: some bald woodland cryptid. And I think maybe not so much. 11 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: I ask because you know, there's a lot of talk 12 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: about neurodivergence autism especially, and you know the way that 13 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: people who think or communicate differently relate to the rest 14 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: of us. Here's your tea. And I know that Blues 15 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Clues had a really profound impact on the autistic community, 16 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: and I've always wanted to know why. In anyway, everyone's different, right, unique, 17 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: So it's not always so easy to tell who's neurodivergent anyway, 18 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: And what does the term even mean, you know? And 19 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: also who gets to decide what's normal? What do you think? 20 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Huh huh? Okay, let's go Okay, all right, So. Desiree 21 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: Jones is an Associate professor of psychology and director of 22 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: the SHINE Lab that stands for Stigma, Human Interaction and 23 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: Neurodivergent Experiences at the University of Maryland. Before that, she 24 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: was a President's Postdoctoral Fellow, which sounds incredibly official to me. 25 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: She started at Wellesley studying both neuroscience and psychology. Apparently 26 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: one brain degree wasn't enough. Then she went on to 27 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: the University of Texas at Dallas for a master's and 28 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: applied cognition in neuroscience, followed by a PhD in psychological sciences. 29 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: Some people collect funko pops, desire collects diplomas. Apparently her 30 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: research is about autism, stigma, and intersectionality, basically all the 31 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: ways in which society decides who's normal and who isn't. 32 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: And in twenty twenty three she landed on the Forbes 33 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: thirty Under thirty Science list, which is to say, she's 34 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: one of those extraordinarily accomplished people who is also simultaneously 35 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: very very young and therefore totally intimidating to me. She's here, Hey, 36 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: how you doing today, Hi, Steve. 37 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: I'm really great. I'm so glad that I could catch you. 38 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: I am so excited that you're here. You're so kind 39 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: to join us. Do I call you Desire or do 40 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: I call you DESI? 41 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I go buy DESI usually especially with friends. And yeah, 42 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 4: hopefully we can be friends. 43 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: Are we friends? We're friends? 44 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: I hope. 45 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 4: So I hope I can tell everyone I'm friends with you, Steve. 46 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 4: I think, well, yeah, that would earn me a lot 47 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: of credibility. 48 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: Listen, you came over to my window. You're willing to 49 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: talk to me about stuff I don't know anything about, 50 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: and you're super cool and super nice and we're totally friends, 51 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: and all right, thank you for being here. Thank you 52 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: so full disclosure. This is not a topic I know 53 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: a whole lot about, but it is something I would 54 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: like to know a whole lot about, in part because 55 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: of my former job. And we can get into that, 56 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: but before we get too far, I want to talk 57 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: about this term neurodivergence, because it's something I hear all 58 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: the time. We all hear all the time. I hear 59 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people say it, but I feel like 60 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: people mean a lot of different things when I'm not 61 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 1: sure everyone's talking about the same thing. So what do 62 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: you think it is. 63 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think you can't really talk about neurodivergence, 64 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 4: which without talking about this broader topic of neurodiversity, right, 65 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 4: so starting at the basic building blocks for that. You know, 66 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 4: this is something I talk a lot about with students 67 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 4: and things like that because you know, a lot of 68 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 4: people are interested in learning about this. 69 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: But basically, you know, if you think. 70 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 4: About the world, I think one of the things that 71 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 4: makes it so beautiful is that we're all different from 72 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: each other. You know, we have people different races, different backgrounds, 73 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 4: different heights, ages, things like that. Neurodiversity applies that idea 74 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 4: to our brains. It's kind of a framework looking at 75 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 4: you know, different types of brains. So you have neurotypical people. 76 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 4: These are people whose brains function in what's seen is 77 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 4: like a typical way. Society was kind of built around 78 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 4: their needs. You know, the way that they process the 79 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 4: world and respond to things and behave is seen as 80 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 4: like typical behaviors within like a culture or the world 81 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 4: around us. People whose brains process things a little diff 82 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 4: diferently might behave a little differently from those norms. They're 83 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 4: called neurodivergent. So this is a pretty broad term broad people. 84 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 4: I think, you know, like you were saying, a lot 85 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 4: of people can define it differently, So sometimes you might 86 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: see it used to define really only like developmental conditions 87 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 4: like autism and ADHD especially you know, I'm an autism researcher. 88 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 4: I have ADHD, so those are kind of in my framework. 89 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 4: But you know, if you think about it, people with 90 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 4: things like mental health conditions, mental illness that also affects 91 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 4: how you experience the world, how you process things. You know, 92 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 4: people with anxiety or depression or schizophrenia, and they're often 93 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 4: judged for their behaviors and in need of like extra 94 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 4: supports and things like that. And then you can even 95 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 4: go as far as talking about people with acquired things 96 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 4: like people who have had strokes, things like that. You know, 97 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 4: that affects the brain, that affects how you experience the 98 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 4: world around you and respond. So I think that I'm 99 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 4: not trying to gate keep you know, neurodiversity, neurodivergence. I 100 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 4: think that you know, if a person is experiencing these difficulties, 101 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 4: they're kind of common across these different types of conditions. 102 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 4: Then like, I think it's fine to label yourself as neurodivergent. 103 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: Right on. I like what you're saying. What I'm what 104 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say, at least certainly in the beginning 105 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: of that is it's less about differants and more about 106 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: the same sort of diversity that is part of human diversity, right, 107 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: Like in a way it when you think of neurodiversity, 108 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: it's like biodiversity, is this is a function of the 109 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: human condition. There is diversity, right, So of course there 110 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: is neurodiversity, right. 111 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 4: I just want to say one thing, you know, I 112 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 4: think that a lot of times people will take that 113 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 4: diversity thing and kind of run with it and say, oh, 114 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 4: it's not a disability, you know, then everyone's a little 115 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 4: autistic or things like that. But it also can be 116 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 4: very disabling because of the social structures that we have 117 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 4: in our world. 118 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,119 Speaker 1: What are some ways in which it might actually be 119 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: a strength, like in school or in work, or in 120 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: a relationship or something. 121 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,559 Speaker 4: One of the big things is because you can think 122 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 4: differently because you're neurodivergent. 123 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: You can be really creative oftentimes. 124 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 4: So a lot of neurodivergent people find that they really 125 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 4: excel at creative things like the arts or being organized 126 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 4: and following a routine and they can be really good 127 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 4: at things like programming because of. 128 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: That, is there sort of a dynamic of trade off 129 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: involved in that. You know, if there's you know, a 130 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: hyper focus and a hyper utility in one area, does 131 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: that ever mean there's a deficit somewhere else. 132 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 4: I'd say that one of the biggest problems with hyper 133 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 4: focus is that it can you know, it doesn't necessarily 134 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 4: create deficits, but it can create problems in social relationships. 135 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 4: If you're you know, really excited and enthusiastic about something, 136 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 4: you're really into it, you want to talk about it 137 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 4: a lot to someone. I'm someone who's a big talker, 138 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 4: but they're just not interested. You know, they're like very bored, 139 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 4: and you know they're like, oh my gosh, this person 140 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 4: is still talking about this. You know, that can make 141 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 4: get difficult to form relationships, and that's often a response 142 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: that neurodivergent people often receive. Another thing is if you're 143 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 4: you know, two into something, it can mean you know, 144 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 4: you have an aspect of perfectionism. So maybe you're you know, 145 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 4: really detail oriented. You're like, I want to find all 146 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 4: the research about this area for this project and get 147 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 4: it perfect but then it's hard to meet deadlines and 148 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 4: things like that. 149 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can relate to that. I mean, I 150 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: live off gride in a house halfway up a mountain. 151 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: You know. Uh, you know I I am. I am 152 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: an introverts introvert, you know, and it does feel at times. 153 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: It's not that I don't prefer to be around people, 154 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: it's that I cannot. You know that there are times 155 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 1: where we're functioning around people would be not really an 156 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 1: option almost you know, it's hard to describe, but I 157 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: feel like, you know what I'm talking about. 158 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 4: I do, and you know, I think this is really 159 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 4: common for neurodivergent people. So it's something you know, they 160 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 4: call it autistic burnout for autism, but a lot of 161 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 4: it's because I don't know, maybe you can relate to this, 162 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: or maybe people at home can relate to this. It's like, 163 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 4: when you're interacting with people, you can't always be fully yourself, right. 164 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 4: Maybe you can think of a situation where you've had 165 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 4: to kind of perform for people, like you're meeting a 166 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 4: partner's parents for the first time, or you're at an interview, 167 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 4: or you're guest on a podcast, so you know, you 168 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 4: feel like you have to be your best version of yourself. 169 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 4: Neurodivergent people feel like that pretty much, like all the 170 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 4: time and all of their interactions. 171 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: They're taught to like hide who they are. It's called masking. 172 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me about masking. 173 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 174 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 4: So it's kind of like a sometimes conscious, sometimes just 175 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 4: automatic response to a lot of the stigma and discrimination 176 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 4: and social challenges that neurodivergent, especially autistic people face. 177 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 3: So they might you know. 178 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: Make an effort to se debstrate, change the tone and 179 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 4: volume of their voice. They might have a script that 180 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 4: they follow in conversations to make it. 181 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 3: More comfortable for them. 182 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 4: You know, they're basically altering their social kind of abilities 183 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 4: and social performance to better fit in and gain acceptance. 184 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 4: Like I said, it can be completely non conscious, though, 185 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 4: but it can lead to a lot of challenges, right. 186 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 4: It's exhausting, you know, not being able to be yourself 187 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 4: around people. 188 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I mean neurotypical neurodivergent. I think everyone 189 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: can relate to the weight of that feeling, you know. 190 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly Why. 191 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: Does it seem like diagnoses are rising so fast? Is 192 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: it because that it is more common or is it 193 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: because there's more focus on it. 194 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 4: We do see that, you know, diagnoses are rising in 195 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 4: large part. You know this is really because we've gotten 196 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 4: much better at diagnosing people. So I think we've gotten 197 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 4: better at detecting autism earlier, so they can do it 198 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 4: like two to three years of age pretty reliably now, 199 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 4: and we're also going to better at diagnosing it in 200 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 4: populations that you know, don't fit the kind of standard 201 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 4: stereotypical model. So like what like it was frequently white males, 202 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 4: like little boys, there used to be a four to 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 4: one gender ratio, and then autistic people of color. 204 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 3: A lot of people of color have. 205 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 4: Been misdiagnosed as having like behavioral conditions first and then 206 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 4: they later go on to get an autism diagnosis. They've 207 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 4: also made some changes around the diagnosis of autism, so 208 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 4: there used to be separate conditions. Like maybe you've heard 209 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 4: of Asperger syndrome that's now under the umbrella of autism, 210 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 4: but until twenty thirteen, it was a separate diagnosis. 211 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: Tell me more about why girls in particular and people 212 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: of color so often get missed in their diagnosis until 213 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: later in life. What's that about. 214 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, so a lot of research has shown that can 215 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: really a lot of can be attributed to stigma, just 216 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 4: both kind of stereotypes about what autism looks like, and 217 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 4: then also some bias and providers. 218 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: What biases are you talking about? 219 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 4: Specifically, there's a bias about like black families, So they 220 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 4: were making judgments on family structures, like maybe both parents 221 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 4: are working and you know, the kids being taken care 222 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 4: of in daycare or things like that, or they're not 223 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 4: in like a traditional preschool things like that, or you know, 224 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 4: the provider kind of making judgments about behaviors that might 225 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 4: be typical for black children versus white children. 226 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: There was another study where they kind of, you know, 227 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: it wasn't. 228 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 4: Actual kids, but they gave a description of like behaviors 229 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 4: that were atypical, and they asked students to like identify 230 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 4: a diagnosis. When they labeled the kid is white, the 231 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 4: students were more likely to say that kid was autistic 232 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 4: versus if the student or if the kid was labeled 233 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 4: as black. 234 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 3: Students usually attributed it to. 235 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,599 Speaker 4: Like it's called oppositional defiant disorder or like behavioral conditions. 236 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: What is oppositional defiant disorder? 237 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, so that's a disorder that's diagnosed often in childhood 238 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 4: and it's really you know, kind of having these defiant behaviors. 239 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 4: So it's you know, kind of doing not what you're told, 240 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 4: or these externalizing, acting out types of behaviors. So it's 241 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 4: like kids who might be very resistant in nature, or 242 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 4: kids who might have hitting and behaviors like that. 243 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: So I want to be clear. So this this paper 244 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: determined or found that later in life, someone who might 245 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: have been dismissed as having you know, oppositional defiance disorder 246 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: actually met the criteria for autism. 247 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 4: Yes, there have been several studies that have shown that, 248 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 4: you know, black children are more likely to have a 249 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 4: more diagnoses before reaching the autism diagnosis. That's kind of 250 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 4: their final diagnosis, more time to reach an autism diagnosis, 251 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 4: so they're diagnosed at a later age, and then you know, 252 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 4: more misdiagnoses at first, so things like ADHD or behavioral difficulties. 253 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 4: That does sound like bias, Yeah, exactly, So that's kind 254 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 4: of why we talk about that. For girls, it can 255 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 4: be a little more complicated. And you know, again this 256 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 4: can also relate to people of color and stuff. We 257 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 4: think that girls might mask more so you know, maybe 258 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 4: they're able to fly under the radar. Yeah, so that 259 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 4: can be a thing. Maybe you know, doctors aren't as 260 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 4: good at recognizing when someone's masking. That's often also the 261 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: case with like black autistic people. You know, their top 262 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 4: two mask and conceal their behaviors to protect themselves. 263 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 3: So that can make it harder. 264 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 4: You know, on top of these biases, you know, just 265 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: some of these differences in what a behavior might look 266 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: like in these assessments. 267 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: I wonder if young girls are sort of asked to 268 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: mask anyway, so they might be they might be good maskers. 269 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know, when we look at autistic girls, 270 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 4: we do see, like, first of all, girls are kind 271 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 4: of socialized to play with toys like dolls and stuff 272 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 4: like that, and those are some of the tools we 273 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 4: use in the like autism diagnostic assessment that seems like 274 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 4: gold standard, it's called the ADOS. So you know, maybe 275 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 4: they're more likely to be interested in those social toys 276 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 4: or another study showed that, you know, autistic girls often 277 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 4: have interests that are like more typical, but they're just 278 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 4: really intense in nature, whereas autistic boys might be more 279 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 4: interested in kind of more obscure types of things interesting. 280 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: Do do Queer and autistic identities overlap in similar ways, 281 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: you know that that are meaningful for belonging, support and 282 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: everything else. 283 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, so this unfortunately is an area that's like very 284 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 4: much pretty new in research. There wasn't a lot of 285 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 4: focus on LGBTQ plus autistic people. You know, they were 286 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 4: kind of just like I said, autism research was very 287 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 4: like homogenous for a while. So I think one thing 288 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 4: that's really interesting that's come out of it is that 289 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 4: a lot more autistic people are transgender or non binary 290 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 4: compared to the general population. And yeah, so even you know, 291 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 4: within people who I've worked with in my study that 292 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 4: you know, I don't aim to recruit for that, but 293 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 4: in my dissutation, like I want to say, like a 294 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 4: close to a third of people identified as non binary. 295 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 4: And there's a theory that maybe autistic people you know, 296 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 4: don't perceive these gender norms in the same way because 297 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 4: you know, of their differences in thinking, you know, it 298 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 4: might be something like that. You know, we haven't really 299 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 4: I think the research is just kind of getting started 300 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 4: in it and trying to figure this out. But yeah, 301 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 4: a lot of autistic people do identify as trends or 302 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:37,360 Speaker 4: non binary. 303 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: That is I would love to read about that that 304 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: is really interesting research. So they're thinking perhaps they don't 305 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: perceive gender in the same way and then also don't 306 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: apply that perception to themselves. 307 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 4: I think we find a similar thing for you, like 308 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 4: being a sexual or a romantic. That's also higher prevalence 309 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 4: foreign eurodivergent people, so you know, maybe they also you know, 310 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 4: it could be a brain thing. It could be kind 311 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 4: of a combination of like brain and like socialization. There's 312 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 4: not enough research really to say what the cause of 313 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 4: this is. We're just you know, seeing this consistent pattern 314 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 4: of you know, different ways of thinking about things like 315 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 4: gender and sexuality and autistic people. 316 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: You said asexual and a romantic. What is the distinction 317 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: between those two. 318 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 4: So when we think about a sexuality, that's really referring 319 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 4: to sexual desires, so you know, it's not about sexual behaviors. 320 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 4: Some asexual people aren't sexually attracted to people, you know, 321 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 4: they they don't form those sexual attractions. Some people call 322 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 4: themselves like demisexual, so that means that they only form 323 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 4: you know, these again sexual attractions to certain people, like 324 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 4: once they've known them a little better. In terms of 325 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 4: a romantic that's again that kind of like attachment behavior. 326 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: So when you're in a romantic relationship. I think the 327 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: big way to distinguish this is, you know, you can 328 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 4: of like casual hookups that would be like sexuality, sexual behaviors, 329 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 4: sexual attraction, whereas like a romantic relationship that would be 330 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 4: you know, that romanticism. You know, you can have a relationship, 331 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 4: a very successful relationship with someone that's romantic where you 332 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,719 Speaker 4: don't engage in sex or sexual behaviors for whatever reason, 333 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 4: just like you can have sex without that romantic attachment. 334 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: Yes, I was about to ask because that was possible 335 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: asking for a friend, of course, But what is what 336 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: is the double empathy problem? This is something that I 337 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: hear a lot about in this conversation. 338 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: When we look at research. 339 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 4: You know, there are a lot of studies looking at 340 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 4: interactions between autistic and non autistic people and comparing them 341 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 4: to interactions between you know, just two autistic people or 342 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 4: two non autistic people. 343 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: And interestingly, a lot. 344 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 4: Of this research shows that, you know, when you have 345 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: two autistic people, they don't have a lot of these. 346 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: Difficulties in their interactions. 347 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 4: They can understand each other better, you know, understand what 348 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 4: they're saying, what they're expressing, and they get along a 349 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 4: little better, and these interactions, you know, they rate them 350 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 4: pretty positively. 351 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: If autistic people just had. 352 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 4: Broad social deficits, you wouldn't expect that, right, You'd expect 353 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 4: two autistic people to you know, have a really poor interaction, 354 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 4: and that's not what we're seeing in research. Many times, 355 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,959 Speaker 4: these two autistic people get along, you know, just as 356 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 4: well as two non autistic people and can communicate just 357 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 4: as effectively. So the double empathy problem is really saying 358 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 4: that it's not just autistic people having trouble understanding and 359 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 4: empathizing with non autistic people. 360 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 3: It's a two sided thing. 361 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 4: You know, non autistic people also have trouble you know, 362 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 4: understanding and interpreting autistic communication. 363 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: Right, So how can we do that? How can we 364 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: better interpret and understand the autistic community. 365 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing is just getting to know 366 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 4: and kind of understand autistic people around you. So we 367 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: have some research and we've looked at how people kind 368 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 4: of perceive autistic people, like the. 369 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 3: Stereotypes I have. 370 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 4: We call it, like first impressions would show a ten 371 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 4: second video of autistic people. You know, sometimes we don't 372 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 4: even say that they're autistic. We ask people, what do 373 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: you think of this person, like, would you hang out 374 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 4: with them? Those types of things, And we find that 375 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 4: people who have more knowledge about autism and also have 376 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 4: you know, more firsthand experience with autistic people, both of 377 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 4: those things are associated with writing autistic people better. So 378 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 4: I think just you know, being able to you know, 379 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 4: whether you have autistic friends or you know, you follow 380 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 4: people who are autistic online, you can learn to understand 381 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,360 Speaker 4: them just like you can, you know, learn to understand 382 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 4: how your friend from a different culture might express themselves differently. 383 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 4: So I think that that's social contact, and you know, 384 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 4: interacting with and learning from and listening to autistic people 385 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 4: is a really important component of that. 386 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I found in my lived experience. And 387 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: I have some autistic friends, you know, I think we 388 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: all do, and that's what I found. It's just like, oh, 389 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: it's just a slightly different code. I get it, you know. Yeah, 390 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: and listening as been big a big part of that. Yeah, 391 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: So why do you think people still assume that autism 392 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: means lack of empathy? 393 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 4: One thing that I found was really common was that 394 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 4: people often learned about autism from you know, like TV 395 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 4: shows and things like that. And I think If you 396 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 4: think about autistic characters that are represented, it's often like 397 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 4: a very small range of different people. You know, there's 398 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 4: much more diversity and actual autistic people, so you often 399 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 4: see this kind of like Asperger's phenotype, where it's. 400 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,400 Speaker 3: Like a white guy who's like. 401 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: Really socially awkward but like really smart and talented. So 402 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 4: you know, common ones are like Sheldon from The Big 403 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 4: Bang Theory, or the guy and the Good Doctor, or 404 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 4: you can see that savant type of thing where people 405 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,680 Speaker 4: really struggle with the social connection, like rain Man, which 406 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 4: is a really it's been actually really harmful stereotype for 407 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 4: many autistic people to overcome. 408 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: So I think that's one of the problems. 409 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 4: You know, autistic people have often been portrayed as like 410 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 4: aloof and cold, when in reality, many autistic people avoid 411 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 4: interactions because they've faced so much discrimination and bullying and 412 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 4: things like that and have had so many negative experiences, 413 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 4: so they might withdraw a little bit be hesitant to 414 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 4: form some of these interactions, but it doesn't mean they 415 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 4: don't want friends, right in that. 416 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that just you know, creates more masking 417 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: and more anxiety, and it just creates that cycle back 418 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: and forth because of the double empathy problem going over 419 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 1: around and around. Do you think the stigma is shrinking 420 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: or is it just kind of morphing into subtler forms. 421 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 4: I think that especially recently, we've had a lot of 422 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 4: efforts to increase autism awareness and that's been really effective. 423 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 4: So a lot of people know what autism is at 424 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 4: least on a very basic level, but we certainly have 425 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,880 Speaker 4: a ways to go. There have been especially many very 426 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 4: recent dialogues about autism that are very dangerous and harmful, 427 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: you know, saying things like that autistic people can never 428 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 4: do like all of these things, you know, like they 429 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 4: can never play baseball, they can never have a meaningful life. 430 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: Ah. 431 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 4: That's very stigmatizing and it's just like a vast over generalization. 432 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 4: And it's also dangerous because it kind of says that 433 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 4: a person's value is tied to their abilities, which I 434 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 4: think is a really harmful notion. So it's something we 435 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 4: see a lot too. But I mean the term for 436 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,479 Speaker 4: it is ableism, you know, discrimination based on ability, and 437 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 4: that's still really common. We see it in the workplace, 438 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 4: we see it in romantic relationships, friendships. One of the 439 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 4: biggest things we find consistently in our relationship is that 440 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 4: non autistic people are really reluctant to form relationships with 441 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 4: autistic people. You know, they have a much reduced interest 442 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 4: in that compared to you know, friendships with people. 443 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 3: With other conditions. 444 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? 445 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 4: I think part of it, you know, is, you know, 446 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 4: again these kind of misinterpretations of autistic communication. Oftentimes people 447 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 4: might interpret an autistic person as being disinterested or awkward 448 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 4: or things like that, and they're less interested in. 449 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 3: Forming friends with them because of that. 450 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 4: One interesting thing is that we only really see that 451 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 4: for non autistic people. If I show videos of autistic 452 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 4: people to other autistic people, they'll still rate them as 453 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 4: awkward things like that, but they don't have that reduced 454 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 4: social interest, which suggests that you know, neurodivergent or especially 455 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 4: autistic people might not use that, might not put as 456 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 4: much weight on that when they're forming friends. It's like 457 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 4: I can be friends with someone who's awkward or things 458 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 4: like that. You know, that's not a barrier for us, 459 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 4: whereas it might be a big barrier for a lot 460 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 4: of you know, neurotypical people. 461 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it is about you know, seeing 462 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: past your assumption of the cue that you're reading. 463 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 3: You know. 464 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: I remember I was dating someone who had ADHD, and 465 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: for a while, I was like, this person is just 466 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: being very rude, you know, and I was misinterpreting a 467 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 1: lot of stuff and I was like, huh. And then 468 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: and then I figured out what was going on, and 469 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: we talked and we communicated and it was cool, you know, 470 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: But but that was on me, you know, I was 471 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: I was making an assumption there. 472 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: You know. 473 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 3: That's a fantastic way of putting it. 474 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,479 Speaker 4: You know, I think a lot of this research has 475 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 4: come out showing you know, for my dissertation, I interviewed 476 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 4: autistic people about their social experiences, and one thing that 477 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 4: really came out of it was that people were very 478 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 4: frequently misinterpreted. So autistic women said that people often said 479 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 4: that they had like resting bitch face and thought that 480 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 4: they were really angry and things like that all the time. 481 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 4: You know, Black autistic people said that they felt like 482 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 4: they had to be really conscious of their behaviors so 483 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 4: they weren't interpreted as aggressive or you know, lazier a 484 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 4: lot of these stereotypes. And then just in addition to that, 485 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 4: you know, a lot of autistic people just felt like 486 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 4: people even who were close to them, didn't understand them, 487 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 4: you know, their motives, their intentions. 488 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: One thing you said that really struck me. It was 489 00:26:53,640 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 1: this masking around policing, you know, because you know, you 490 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 1: don't want your behavior to be misinterpreted. You don't want 491 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to have a misinterpreted neurodivergent behavior compounding 492 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: a bias in that moment. You know. That does sound 493 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: particularly fraud So a lot of this sounds like it's on, 494 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: it's on. Or the double empathy problem, right, which I 495 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: think is really fascinating, means that both sides have to try, 496 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, and uh, and how can we accommodate and 497 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: even advocate without alienating. 498 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I think that changes are needed, you know, 499 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 4: both on an individual level. You know, I've talked a 500 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 4: lot about increasing our understanding autistic ways of communication, reducing 501 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 4: our stigma towards autism, so being more accepting and accommodating, 502 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 4: But I also think we need some structural changes to 503 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:56,399 Speaker 4: help autistic people. 504 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 3: Right. 505 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 4: So one thing that's really helpful is like increased flexibility, 506 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 4: so you know, being being more flexible with your friends 507 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 4: if you know, maybe they're not feeling a social interaction. 508 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 4: Maybe they're not feeling like going out, maybe they're autistic 509 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 4: or neurodivergent, they're just really burnt out. They'd rather stay 510 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: in or just like having some time to themselves. 511 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 3: You know. 512 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 4: I think oftentimes we get labeled as flaky for canceling, 513 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 4: and you know, it can be tough, but you know, 514 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 4: having that flexibility. I also think just communicating your expectations socially, 515 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 4: so you know, knowing, you know, kind of laying out 516 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 4: being direct about what you're expecting of someone. Like we 517 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 4: had like a seminar here and we were kind of 518 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 4: talking about like norms social norms, and we're writing them out, 519 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 4: and we were saying, like how many of these are 520 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 4: actually necessary in a social interaction, And we realized like 521 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 4: very few of them were actually necessary, but they were 522 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 4: often things that are used to kind of stigmatize. 523 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: Or exclude neurodivergent people. 524 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 4: Like eye contact is a good one, Like, you know, 525 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 4: it can be helpful for non autistic neurotypical people to 526 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 4: like read emotions from someone's eyes, but is that really necessary. 527 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 4: You know, listen to the words they're saying in any cases, 528 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 4: that will tell. 529 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 3: You exactly what you need to know. About how they're feeling. 530 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: Ask them what would you say to a parent who 531 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: who's wondering how to prepare their child, their autistic child 532 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: to enter a world that often confuses diversity for disorder. 533 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 4: I think that this is a really tough thing for 534 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 4: a lot of parents, especially because you know, autism is 535 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 4: a spectrum, and you know, some people's kids can have 536 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 4: really high support needs where you know, they might require 537 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 4: around the round the clock type of help with you know, 538 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 4: daily living and different types of skills, a lot more support, 539 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 4: whereas you know, some people's kids may achieve independence and 540 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 4: need less of that support. So things can look very 541 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 4: different for different parents of different autistic people, just like 542 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 4: they can look, you know, different for parents of neurotypical people. 543 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 4: Right that, With that in mind, I think they're like 544 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 4: three things that are really important for helping to prepare 545 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 4: your autistic child for the world, and that's acceptance, advocacy, 546 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: and love. So what I mean by acceptance is, you know, 547 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 4: accepting your child for who they are, especially who they 548 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 4: are now, not. 549 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 3: Who you hope they'll be in the future. 550 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 4: You know, I think parents can pretty commonly expect things 551 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 4: of their kids or hope for things of their kids. 552 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 4: But you know, I think just appreciating who they are. 553 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 3: Now in the moment. 554 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 4: You know, they have value their your kids, so just 555 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 4: you know, accepting them for who they are now, kind 556 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: of regardless again of that ability level or you know, 557 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 4: challenges they might face and things like that. Advocacy is 558 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 4: also really important. So many parents have to advocate for 559 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 4: their kid kind of throughout their life in school, you know, 560 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 4: getting them the supports they need. There's something called an 561 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 4: IEP in school that's really helpful for many disabled kids. Also, 562 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 4: things like you know, pushing your doctor to you know 563 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 4: get a certain support like therapy or something, or even 564 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 4: just getting that initial autism diagnosis if your kid has 565 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 4: the ability, teaching them to advocate for themselves, right, you 566 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 4: know that kind of thing. And then finally, I think 567 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 4: love is pretty self explanatory, right, But what I mean 568 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: by that is just like giving your kid a space 569 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 4: to know that they belong, they're valued, they're accepted. So 570 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 4: as an ero divergent kid, like this was really helpful 571 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 4: for me. I was a weird kid, Like I got 572 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 4: obsessed with Matt Damon. 573 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 3: For like three years. I'm someways doing He's a. 574 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: Great accurate and it's like he was a nice guy 575 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: from Boston. He wrote Goodwill Hunting when he was younger 576 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: than you. 577 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 4: You don't have to tell me, like I was obsessed 578 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 4: with him to the point that I was like actively 579 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 4: bullied for this, Like I was a weird kid. I'd say, yeah, 580 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 4: but my parents were just like whatever. And the point 581 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 4: is like I was weird as a kid, and not 582 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 4: in like a really cute way, like oftentimes in a 583 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 4: way that got me picked on or people thought I 584 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 4: was like genuinely weird, but I never felt that way 585 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 4: with my parents. 586 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and it's right, especially with other kids, because I'll. 587 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: Tell you just being myself here, Yeah, being bullied, I 588 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: always say, you know, being bullied when I was young. 589 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: It's difficult for me to think of anything that was 590 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: more formative in my life, and it still shapes my 591 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: perceptions to this day. You know, I am still aware 592 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: of the way in which I was fired in that 593 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: particular crucible. You know, it's still it's had a profound impact, 594 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: I think on anyone who's experienced it, you know, And 595 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: you were really Matt Damon, I wanted to be a mime. 596 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 4: Oh wow, yeah, you're you're a performer. You know, you 597 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 4: became a performer. So I think it worked out in. 598 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: The end, you know, Yeah, I guess I was asking 599 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: for it in a way. 600 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 4: I was like the kid who corrected the teacher and like, 601 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 4: you know, that doesn't make you a lot of friends, 602 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 4: or like reminding the teacher like you forgot to give 603 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 4: us homework like that, I'll. 604 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: Get your bullied. DESI that'll get you bullied. Yeah. Yeah, wow, 605 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: that's that's strong coffee. Yeah, talk to me a little 606 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: about neurodivergence and emergent technologies. Now, we're all relating through 607 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: screens all the time, right You and I are relating 608 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: through that right now. And how do all these screens 609 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: factor in? You know, is is it helping? Is it helpful? 610 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: Is it hurtful? Like what's up? 611 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, So this whole issue of social media and technology 612 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 4: can be really interesting for autistic people. So, you know, 613 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 4: in my dissertation, like I said, I interviewed autistic people 614 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 4: about their social experiences and one thing that came out, 615 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 4: especially for black autistic people and autistic women, was the. 616 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 3: Internet was like really powerful for them. 617 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 4: So that's where most of their friends were online, you know, 618 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 4: people on like Twitter, or you know, I had people 619 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 4: who were like I found people who are interested in 620 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 4: k POMP like me. It's like I've been a really 621 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 4: good tool for a lot of people to you know, 622 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 4: find people who are similar to them, maybe other neurodivergent people, 623 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 4: other people with overlapping interests, and there's a lot less 624 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: social pressure than like a face to face interaction. So 625 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 4: we did a study here at UMD with kids and 626 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 4: many of the kids said like, oh, I met like 627 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 4: friends online through like this game I played, and you know, 628 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 4: I don't really have friends in person. 629 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: That said, it can also open up some trouble for 630 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 3: neurodivergent people. 631 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 4: So cyber bullying is something that can be really common 632 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 4: for neurodivergent people. I think, like especially kids who are 633 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 4: in school. You know, they can have videos spread around 634 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 4: them making fun of them. When I was in high school, 635 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 4: there was a Facebook group that was called like this 636 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,359 Speaker 4: kid has Asperger syndrome, and like a bunch of people 637 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 4: were joining it, and that's. 638 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 3: Really messed up, like why would you do that? 639 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 4: But you know, that is a really common thing. Many 640 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 4: neurodivergent people get bullied. I had someone who was in 641 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 4: my dissertation who said, like they used four chan a lot, 642 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 4: and like obviously they get bullied all the time on there. 643 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 4: There's a very like aggressiven and on that website. So 644 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 4: I do think it can be both. I think it 645 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 4: also is tough because for many autistic people, those relationships 646 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,479 Speaker 4: that they have online, they'd like them to expand into 647 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 4: something more. They'd like to have that face to face 648 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 4: you know, interaction and connection, but they can't, you know, 649 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 4: for whatever reasons. It can sometimes be a barrier and 650 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 4: be a little harder. You know, they still have these 651 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 4: unmet social needs. So I think it can be both 652 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 4: a benefit and a challenge. I'll also just add a 653 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 4: couple more like quick points. 654 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: Yeah please. 655 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 4: Two benefits outside of relationships for these kind of online interactions. 656 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 3: Are a you know, you get more flexibility. 657 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 4: You could go to school online or you know, work virtually. 658 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 4: It does help for like accommodations for people you know, 659 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 4: maybe you just like can't go in one day or you. 660 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 3: Have a communication barrier. 661 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 4: And then the other thing is like text to speech 662 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 4: programs and assistive communications. So many autistic people don't speak 663 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 4: with words, but they're able to communicate through like an 664 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 4: iPad or something like that. So I think technology has 665 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 4: been like both really great, but it can also you know, 666 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 4: present some dangers. 667 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: What about the future, where do you think this is going? 668 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: Do you have hope? You seem like a very hopeful person. 669 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: It seems like we're gonna we're going to learn to 670 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: accommodate a little bit more. What do you what do 671 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: you think? 672 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 4: I like to think that, you know, the universe is 673 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 4: shifting towards you know, this balance, this acceptance for you know, everyone, 674 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 4: We're seeing over time we are becoming more accepting of differences. 675 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: I think that with the way that the world is now, 676 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 4: it's so global, you know, you have to be accommodating 677 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 4: of people who are different from you and accepting the things, 678 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 4: whether it's people from different cultures, different backgrounds, or you know, 679 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 4: people with different brains. So I'm really hopeful towards that, 680 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 4: you know, I already just I've been in autism research 681 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 4: for I guess like almost ten years now, and I've 682 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 4: already seen a big change, you know, not just within 683 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 4: you know, the field in general, but within my own 684 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 4: work and my own understanding, my own interactions with autistic 685 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 4: collaborators and students and you know, even participants who I'm 686 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 4: talking to, and every person who I talk to, I 687 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 4: walk away from that conversation having learned something. So I 688 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 4: think that's really cool. And I really just believe in 689 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 4: the best in people. So I really do think that 690 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 4: it's going to get better. You know, I've seen it 691 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 4: getting better for a lot of autistic people I know. 692 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 4: And yeah, I know that a lot of them, you know, 693 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 4: they say it's not great now, but like they also 694 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,439 Speaker 4: have hope for the future. And you know, I hope 695 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 4: that we can kind of shift our understanding of autism 696 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 4: to be more accepting because regardless of a person's ability level, 697 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 4: things like that, if we reduce stigma, we can make 698 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 4: their life a little better. 699 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: Right, fantastic. I love talking to an optimist. DESI thank 700 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: you so much for stopping by the window and talking 701 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: to us. This was really fascinating. I could talk to 702 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: you for hours and I really learned a lot today, 703 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: So you're great. 704 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 705 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 4: This has been one of the coolest things I've ever done, 706 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 4: and it's been so nice talking to you. 707 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're well them anytime. All right, have a wonderful day. 708 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 3: You too, Thank you. 709 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: Okay, bye bye bye. All right, that was exceptionally informative. 710 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: I learned a lot, how about you? Yeah right, okay, 711 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: just a few things that I wrote down. Neurodiversity is 712 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: human diversity, right. I know. When I usually think of 713 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: the word diversity, I think of like culture and language 714 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: and even like food. But of course that applies to 715 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 1: our brains too. That makes sense. Difference isn't necessarily deficit. 716 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,279 Speaker 1: There are, in fact circumstances in which things that make 717 00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: us different are also the things that make us strong. 718 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 1: And the last thing I wrote is she said acceptance, advocacy, 719 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: and love are things that a neurodivergent child might need. 720 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:18,800 Speaker 1: And it sounds to me like those are the things 721 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: that all human beings need, we just need them differently. Yeah, 722 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: let's go outside. Neurodiversity is human diversity. That one resonates 723 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: with me because we're all unique, all right? And if 724 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: we're all unique, doesn't that mean being unique is normal? 725 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: Could it be that difference itself is the most human 726 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: part of us? I don't know, what do you think? Yeah? Yeah, well, 727 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: thanks for coming by. Means a lot. It's always great 728 00:40:37,040 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: to see you. Really, you look great. Alive with Steve 729 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: Burns is a Lemonada media original. If you haven't subscribed 730 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can 731 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: listen to the show completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock 732 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. 733 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: Just press subscribe on Apple Podcasts, head to Lemonada Premium 734 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: dot com to subscribe on any other app, or listen 735 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: ad free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership. That's 736 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,200 Speaker 1: Lemonadapremium dot com. Alive is hosted by Me Steve Burns 737 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. 738 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,040 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Aksha's Thurbeylu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. 739 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers 740 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: are Jessica Cordover Kramer, Stephanie Whittles Wax and Me. We'll 741 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: see you next week and you look great, by the way.