1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Media. 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 2: You are the victim of a con You have more 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: than likely said to yourself some time in the last 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 2: few years, even ten years, that you just didn't get tech, 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: or you getting too old, or that tech's gotten away 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: from you because you found a service or an app 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 2: or your computer annoying you or someone you love have 8 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: convinced themselves that their inability to use something is a 9 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 2: sign that they are deficient, that they've failed to keep 10 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: up with the times, as if the things we use 11 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: every day should be in a constant state of flux. 12 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: You're listening to Better Offline and I'm d Zetra, and 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: this is the two part episode that ends this season 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: of Better off Line, and it's about the true scale 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 2: of the rot economy and how the tech industry is 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 2: waging an endless, invisible war against the user and we're losing, 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: by the way, We're losing really badly. They're slowly taking 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 2: everything away, adding tolls and growth hacks around basically every 19 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: part of our lives. And they can't even give us 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: the dignity of making sure the things that make them 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: billions keep functioning. No, I don't know. They have to 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 2: twist them at every goddamn corner to make them more profitable, 23 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: because they know, in many cases that we have nowhere 24 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: else to go. Think about it, The tools we use 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: in our daily lives outside of our devices have mostly 26 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: stayed the same, right, buttons on our cars might have 27 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,199 Speaker 2: moved around a bit. And I'm not talking about testa. 28 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 2: By the way, we generally have a brak and an 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: accelerator and a wheel and a turn signal. Boarding an 30 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: airplane has mostly worked the same way since I started flying. 31 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: Our trains are buses, restaurants, toilets, houses. They all have 32 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: the same mechanisms, and we're not expected to update them 33 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 2: or adapt to new circumstances. We don't walk into our 34 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: apartments and the door opens a different way for some reason, 35 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: the toilet still flushes. I believe just used it. Just 36 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: checked now what I'm getting into in this episode. There 37 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 2: are some exceptions. Some people really just don't try and 38 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: learn how to use the computer or a smartphone, and 39 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: they just kind of reject technology or they refuse to 40 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 2: pick it up because it's not for them. These people exist, 41 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: they are real, We all know them, and I don't 42 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: think anybody hearing this falls into that camp. Basic technological 43 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 2: literacy is a requirement to live in society, and there 44 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: is some responsibility on the user. But even saying that, 45 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: even if we assume that these people are very common 46 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: and this is the case, should companies really take advantage 47 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 2: of them? And the answer is no, of course. Now, 48 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: our apps and platforms, the things we use every day, 49 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: operate with a totally different moral and intellectual compass to 50 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: other things in our lives. Well, the idea of an 51 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: updates fairly nobleor that something you've bought can be maintained 52 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: and improved over time, that's a good thing. Many take 53 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: platforms see it as a means to further extract and exploit, 54 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: to push users into doing things that either keep them 55 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 2: on the app longer or take more profitable actions. We 56 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: as a society need to reckon with this, and we 57 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: need to reckon with how this twist. So it makes 58 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: us more paranoid, more judgmental, more aggressive, more reactionary, because 59 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: when everything is subtly annoying, we all simmer. We suffer 60 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: in these manifold ways. There's no digital world in physical world, 61 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: by the way they are and have been for some time, 62 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: quite the same thing. And reporting on tech as if 63 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: this isn't the case is a failure of the user, 64 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 2: failure of reality, and honestly a failure of curiosity. If 65 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: you're still doing this as a writer, you're full of shit. 66 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: And I want to be clear that I'm not just 67 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: talking about one single product or company. I'm talking about 68 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: most digital experiences. I'm talking about the digital interference with 69 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: constantly having to dodge the litley of buttons on every 70 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 2: app that are all there to distract us to offuscate 71 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: the path of the things we actually want to do. 72 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: I'll choose an example for you now. My British Canadian 73 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: listener is not going to love this. But as an 74 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: app called Sleeper, which I used to play fancy football NFL, 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: there are so many buttons to try and make me 76 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: do different kinds of sports gambling. All I want to 77 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: do is check my lineup. But no, no, no, no, 78 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: Sleeper must have a way to further monetize me. The 79 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: way that apps present information in ways that the design 80 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: to be illogical and unhelpful is just disgusting, and they 81 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: artificially force us to engage for longer with the apps 82 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 2: in question. It's not about providing a service, and I 83 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: sound kind of panicky and emotional. But I need you 84 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: to understand how common this is in your lives. Every 85 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: different digital experience is a small version of the little 86 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 2: pieces that make up an annoying day at work, except 87 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: for either paying for them or being actively monetized for 88 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 2: the pleasure. Let me give you an example. Back in 89 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, Spotify redesign its app too and I 90 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: quote the verge b part TikTok, part Instagram, and part YouTube, 91 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: which in practice meant replacing a relatively clean and straightforward 92 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: user interface with one made up of full screen cards 93 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 2: like TikTok and auto playing video podcasts also like TikTok, 94 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: and CEO Daniel Eck claimed that this would and I'm 95 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 2: quitting sky News here make the platform come alive with 96 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: different content on a platform that was built in sold 97 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: as a place to listen to music. And the tech media, 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 2: by the way, waived off this redesign without really thinking 99 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 2: about it. They ain't consider its significance. At the drop 100 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: of a hat, hundreds of millions of people's existence, their 101 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: experience of listening to music would change at the whim 102 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: of a multi billionaire with the express purpose of forcing 103 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 2: them to engage with completely different content than they sign 104 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 2: up for as a means of increasing engagement, metrics and 105 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: revenue for a public company. By all means, try and 106 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: pretend that this is just an app. It's just music, right, No, 107 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: people's relationships with music and entertainment are intrinsically linked to 108 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: their moods and their motivations, and no matter how you feel, 109 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: it's clear that Spotify, are company best known for fucking 110 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 2: and exploiting its artists, treats its customers, both paying and otherwise, 111 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 2: with a similar level of contempt, and they're far from alone. 112 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 2: Earlier in the year, smart speaker company Sonos released a 113 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 2: redesign of their app that removed their accessibility features, the 114 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: ability to edit song cues or play music from your phone, 115 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 2: and this was an attempt, in their words, to modernize 116 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 2: the interface, with Wired suggesting that these changes could potentially 117 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: open the door to adding a subscription service of some 118 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: sort to help. So nos is you never guess ailing 119 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: growth meta great example as well continually redesigns Facebook and Instagram, 120 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: the latest of which happened in October to focus Facebook 121 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: on gen Z users, and they're probably the most egregious 122 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 2: example of the constant chaos of our digital lives. Well, 123 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: we might complain about these things, we stuck with them 124 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: because the conditions of our investment in tech are that 125 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: we need accounts, we have the features that are customized 126 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: for us. The more time we put into it, the 127 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 2: more it becomes ours. But really, the more we become 128 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 2: owned by the companies. We have ways. We've set things 129 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: up that mier us further to an ecosystem, and that's 130 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 2: fine for a time. It's kind of like having to 131 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: buy specific outfits for specific occasions, except they might stop 132 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,599 Speaker 2: fitting at random, and I don't mean based on your way. 133 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 2: They just expand and intract at random. We load websites 134 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 2: expecting something to go wrong, because it probably will. With 135 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: mobile websites that cover entire screens with pop up ads 136 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 2: that can break the entire experience. My favorite example, by 137 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: the way, is ign dot com, which is a site 138 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 2: that receives over one hundred and eighteen million unique monthly 139 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: visitors that will regularly crash your mobile browser. No really, 140 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: go and look up the God of War Ragnarok guide 141 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: right now and try scrolling on your phone. If it 142 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: doesn't crash your browser, I'll be very bloody surprised. Seemingly 143 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: every experience online demands our email address, and giving them 144 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: our email address adds another email to inboxes already stuffed 145 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: with two types of spam, the actual get the biggest 146 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: laser spam that immediately hits your junk folder, and then 147 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: the growth hack emails we receive from clothing brands we 148 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: wanted to discount from or newspapers we pay that still 149 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: feel it's necessary to email us three to five times 150 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: a day. Every app we use is intentionally built to 151 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: growth hack, a term that means moving things around in 152 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: such a way that the user does the things we 153 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: want them to do. As a company, dating apps gag 154 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: your best matches behind dollar ninety nine or more micro transactions. 155 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: Uber puts suggestions and massive banners throughout their apps to 156 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: try and convince you to use one of their other apps, 157 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: or maybe you accidentally hit them, which gives Uber and 158 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: a better chance to get you to try them. Outlook, 159 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: one of the most popular email platforms in the world, 160 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: puts advertisements in your email inbox that are near and 161 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: distinguishable from new emails, and they're actually at the top 162 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 2: of your inbox too and meta my favorite, They have 163 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: these video carousels previously just on Facebook, but they just 164 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: added them to Instagram that intentionally only play the first 165 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: seconds of a clip as a means of making you click, 166 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: giving them more clicks, more engagement, and more things to 167 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: trick the street with. What I'm getting at, and I 168 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: think you kind of experienced yourself, is that our digital 169 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: lives are actively abusive and hostile. Our ahaps are ever changing. 170 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 2: They're adapting not to us, not to our conditions or 171 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: our needs, but to the demands of investors and internal 172 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: stakeholders that have reduced who we are and what we 173 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: do to an ever growing selection of manipulatable metrics, things 174 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: that don't really tell them anything other than how to 175 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: knock us around to make us do more. It isn't 176 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: that you don't get tech. I must insist you understand this. 177 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: It's that the tech you use every day is completely 178 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: and utterly insane. Every app has a different design, Almost 179 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: every design is growth hacked to optimize your activity on 180 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: said app, with each app trying to make you do 181 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: different things, with some apps having entire growth hacking teams 182 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 2: that continually evaluate what you do and what your friends 183 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 2: are doing, and perhaps find new ways to mash them 184 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: together so they can make more money come out. It 185 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: doesn't matter if the experience sucks. That's not what they're 186 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: there for. They're not there to make things better. I 187 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: want you to realize that this is in almost every 188 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: application you use. I know I'm repeating myself, but it's important, 189 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: and I'm not saying this to complain, But it's because 190 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 2: I believe, as I've hinted that previously, that we're in 191 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: the midst of the largest scale ecological disaster of our time, 192 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 2: because almost every single interaction with technology, which is required 193 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: to live in modern society, has become actively adverse aial 194 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: to the user. These issues hit everything we do all 195 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 2: the time constantly. We're constantly interrupted, and I believe it's 196 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: so much bigger than social media and algorithm though I 197 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: must be clear they're absolutely a big part of it. 198 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 2: The average person's experience with technology is one so aggressive 199 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: and so violative that I believe it leaves large parts 200 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: of our society with a low level trauma. I know 201 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: it sounds dramatic. Some of you hearing this may scoff 202 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: at the idea. Even after all, you're smart, right, you 203 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: know about this information, You know about what these companies 204 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 2: are doing, and thus most people do right wrong. Most 205 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 2: people don't think about the things they're doing at all, 206 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: and they're just trying to get buy in a society 207 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: that increasingly demands we make more money to buy the 208 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: same things, with our lives both interfered with and judged 209 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: by social networks with aggressive algorithms that feed us more 210 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 2: things based on what we'll engage with, which might mean 211 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: things that piss us off or actively radicalize us. People 212 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 2: are nagged constantly by these goddamn notifications and average forty 213 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 2: six a day. Some useful some advertisements, like say Apple 214 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: telling us that there's a nail by a college football game, 215 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: regardless of whether we've interacted with any football contact ever, 216 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: or a Slack message saying that you haven't joined a 217 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 2: group you were invited to a week ago, or Etsy 218 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: letting you know that you can buy things for an 219 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 2: upcoming holiday. It's all the time, it's everywhere, it's constant, 220 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: it's relentless, and the more time you invest in using 221 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: a device, the more of these notifaications you get, making 222 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: you less likely or capable of turning them off. After all, 223 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: how well are you doing keeping your inbox clean. How's 224 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: that going? What's that? What was that? You get twenty 225 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: five emails a day, many of them from a different 226 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 2: company owned by Williamsonoma. Damn, that's crazy. But the indignities 227 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: don't end there, because these people also have to be 228 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: constantly aware of scams and outright misinformation, both on social 229 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: networks that don't really care to stop it and on 230 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: the chum box advertisements below most major news publications, and 231 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 2: if you don't know what that is, those are those 232 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: weird little stories at the bottom promising miracle cures are 233 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: trying to sell you weed or well fake weed from 234 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: Chu Chin Chong. Plenty of people who read and write 235 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 2: about technology have this insipid amount of privilege. They assume 236 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: that it's natural that you'd know that there are entities 237 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: out there trying to scam or trick you, And I'd 238 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: argue that most people don't. Most people are just trying 239 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 2: to get by, and to most people, a video from 240 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: rumble dot com may as well be the same thing 241 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 2: as a video from CNN dot com. And most people 242 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: would believe that every advertisement is somehow verified for its 243 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: accuracy versus the truth, which is it's sold at scale 244 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: all the time to whoever will pay money. I want 245 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: to give you a really good example, and this one 246 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 2: turns my fucking stomach. This one really pisses me off, 247 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: and I want to just say what I'm about to say. 248 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: CNN dot com. It's on nbcnews dot com and it's 249 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: also on the Verge. Nill Patel, you need to fix 250 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: this shit. It's disgusting. But let's talk about CNN dot com, 251 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: a website that had five hundred and ninety four million 252 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 2: visitors in October twenty twenty four. At the bottom of 253 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: CNN when you scroll down, it's something that says paid 254 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: partner content, including things in publications like finance Buzz that 255 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: tell you about the and I quote nine dumbest things 256 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: smart people waste money on finance Buzz immediately when you 257 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: click through, asks you to turn your notifications on, you know, 258 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: so that they can ping you and they have new 259 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 2: articles and each bullet on the story leads to one 260 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: of a different kind of affiliate marketing arm of the 261 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 2: company trying to sell you car insurance and credit cards, 262 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: where they get a little smidgeon of commission every time 263 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 2: someone buys something. And you offered the chance to share 264 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 2: your email address to receive and I quote vetted side 265 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: hustles and proven ways to earn extra cash sent to 266 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 2: your inbox, which I assume includes things like the advertorial. 267 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 2: I was led to where they were telling me that, yes, 268 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: you could make money playing online bingo in games such 269 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: as Bingo Cash against other people. And I saw that, 270 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 2: and I said, that doesn't sound true at all, so 271 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: went and looked them up. Papaya Games, developer of Bingo Cash, 272 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: was sued in March by rifle gaming company Skills for 273 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 2: using bots in allegedly skill based games that are supposed 274 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: to be between humans, and the Michigan Gaming Control Board 275 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 2: issued a season desist ordered against the company for violating 276 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 2: multiple gaming laws, including the Lawful Internet Gaming Act. Quote 277 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: the lawsuit. Papia's games are not skill based, and users 278 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: are often not playing against live, actual opponents, but against 279 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: Papyah's own bots that direct and rig the game so 280 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: that Papyah itself wins its users' money while leading them 281 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 2: to believe that they lost to a live human opponent. 282 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: This is a website and its associated content that had 283 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: prime placement on the front page of a major news outlet. 284 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: As a normal person, it's reasonable to believe that CNM 285 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: would not wilfully allow advertisements for websites that are in 286 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: and of themselves further advertisements masquerading as trustworthy third party entities. 287 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: It's reasonable that you, as a normal person, would believe 288 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: that finance buzz was a reputable website and that their 289 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: intentions were to share great deals and secret tricks with you. 290 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 2: If you think you're not this stupid, your privileged, and 291 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: need to have more solidarity with your fellow human beings, 292 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 2: it's disgraceful if you hear this and you're like, huh, 293 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: stupid idiots, God damn you. People are being screwed. People 294 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: are being screwed right now in this way that you 295 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: might scoff at, that you might look down your nose at, 296 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: but this is serious, and this is horrible. And companies 297 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: like outbrain and Taboolah who make these chumbox advertisements, they 298 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: make millions and millions of dollars doing this and really 299 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: putting aside any privilege you might have, or maybe you don't, 300 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 2: maybe you get what I'm talking about here. Why wouldn't 301 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: you think that the content on one of the most 302 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: notable media outlets in the entire world is trustworthy. Now, 303 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,479 Speaker 2: nothing I'm saying is meant to be polemic or pessimistic 304 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: or describing anything other than the shit that's happening in 305 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,560 Speaker 2: front of my eyes and your eyes and the eyes 306 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: of billions of people. Dismissing these things as just how 307 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: it is as we have for years, allows powerful people 308 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: with no real plan and no real goals other than growth, 309 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: to thrive, and sneering at people dumb enough to get 310 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: tricked by an Internet and tech industry built specifically to 311 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 2: trick them, suggests that you have no idea how you 312 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: are being scammed because you're smug and arrogant. And I 313 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 2: realize I'm possibly making up a person to be angry at, 314 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: But I've had a few conversations recently with people who 315 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: had this reaction, and it sucks. We all learn things 316 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: for the first time, and it's like, if you never learned, 317 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: how would you learn? And I'm trying to, I guess, 318 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 2: make up this person. But if anyone listening have that attitude, 319 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 2: it's important. I need you to stop trying to explain 320 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 2: away how fucking offensive using the Internet and technology has become. 321 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 2: I need you to stop making excuses for the powerful 322 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: and consider the sheer scale of the cycle wrap fucking 323 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: happening on almost every single device in the world, and 324 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 2: consider the ramifications of the difficulty that the human being 325 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: using the internet has trying to live an honest, dignified, 326 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: and reasonable life. And maybe you're in the middle ground. 327 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 2: Maybe you didn't judge them, maybe it just wasn't you. 328 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: Either way, it's I think it's important to put this down. 329 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: To exist in modern society requires you to use these 330 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: devices or otherwise sacrifice large parts of how you'd interact 331 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: with other people. You need a laptop or smartphone for work, 332 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: probably both for school or for anything. Really, you need 333 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: messaging apps otherwise you kind of don't exist. And as 334 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: a result, there's this societal monopoly of sorts, or maybe 335 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: it's more of a cartel in the sense that for 336 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: the most part, every tech company has accepted these aggressive 337 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: anti user positions, all in pursuit of growth. The stakes 338 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: are so much higher than I think anyone realizes, especially 339 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: in the tech media, and I don't know why they're 340 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: not more willing to discuss the scale. They can pick 341 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: the issues, they can say this is bad, and this 342 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 2: is bad, and then they can run glossy coverage for 343 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: Zuckerberg or Musk. But it's bad. It's worse. It's worse 344 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: than a lot of things, and just it's undiscussed, and 345 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 2: they feel almost like I'm saying something obvious. But I've looked. 346 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 2: This isn't being put down like this. No, one's just 347 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 2: pointing at the everything, the bad ex and look the 348 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: extent of the damage, the pain, the frustration, the terror. 349 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: It's so constant, and we're all, in some level just 350 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: kind of numb to it because discussing it requires accepting 351 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: that a vast majority of people live poisoned lives thanks 352 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 2: to their phones laptops. And this isn't even an anti 353 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: technology position. I want it to be better. And as 354 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: you'll hear soon, I do love the computer. But we 355 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: really need to get into this and we need to 356 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 2: realize we all live in the ruins created by the 357 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 2: rot economy. Were the only thing that matters is growth, 358 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: growth of revenue, growth of business, growth of metrics related 359 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: to said business, growth of engagement of clicks, of time 360 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: on the app of purchases, of microtransactions, of impressions of ads, 361 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: of things done that make executives feel happy and make 362 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: the growth team see the number go up. It's goddamn sickening. However, 363 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 2: if you want to feel better, I'm pretty sure that 364 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: after I stop speaking here, there's going to be an AD. 365 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: And I am one hundred percent confident that this ad 366 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: follows it will align with everything I've been saying. It 367 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: won't be for something that has a kind of an 368 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 2: ironic context considering my work. You're going to chuckle and 369 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: shorten because of how right I am here, not because 370 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 2: the thing that follows is completely disgarden and we're back. So, 371 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: as you know, as a listener, I'm a dickhead, and 372 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: if you haven't been listening, you probably work that out 373 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 2: by now you're twenty minutes or so in and you've 374 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: heard me get pissed off. But I was trying to 375 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 2: work out as I wrote this script, how would I 376 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 2: frame this, How would I really show you the scale? 377 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: So I went on Amazon dot com, the Everything Store, 378 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 2: and I bought the best selling laptop at two hundred 379 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 2: and thirty eight dollars, Aceerus Spire one with a four 380 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 2: year old seller on N four five zero zero processor, 381 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: which I'd consider fairly representative of how millions of people 382 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 2: interact with the Internet. I also believe it's a powerful 383 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 2: illustration of the damage caused by the rot economy and 384 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: this abusive, poisonous and exploitive way in which the tech 385 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: industry treats people. In a very practical sense, So I 386 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: opened this piece of sheit up and it really you're 387 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: gonna hear as I discussed this the anger that I experience. 388 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: So I hit on on it and it took one 389 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: minute and fifty seconds from touching that power button for 390 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: the laptop to get to a setup screen. It then 391 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: took another minute and a half to connect and begin 392 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,479 Speaker 2: downloading updates, which then took several more minutes. After that, 393 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 2: I was faced with a licensing agreement where I agreed 394 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 2: to binding arbitration to use Windows. Another twenty four second pause, 395 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: and then I got shown a screen of different and 396 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 2: I quote ways I could unlock my Microsoft experience with 397 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: animations that shut it and jerked violently. It really didn't 398 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: feel good. It was just immediately you could tell this 399 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: thing was cheap. Now throughout using this thing, this cheap 400 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 2: track pad on this laptop, it would just miss the 401 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,159 Speaker 2: occasional click. And at this point I was forced to 402 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: create a Microsoft account and hand over my cell phone 403 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: or another email address to receive a code, or I'd 404 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 2: not be able to use the laptop at all. Each 405 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: menu screen takes three to five seconds to load, and 406 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: I'm asked to customize my experience with things like personalized ads, 407 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: tips and recommendations with every option on by the ford, 408 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: by the way, and then I had to sign up 409 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: for another account, this time with ASA. At one point, 410 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: I'm simply shown an AD for Microsoft one Drive and 411 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: their cloud storage product with a qrco to download it 412 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: on my phone, and then I'm told that Windows has 413 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: to download a few updates, which I assume are different 414 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: to the updates I did before. Now I'm not just complaining, 415 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: I just I'm trying to explain how much stuff happens 416 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: when a regular person who cannot afford a MacBook, who 417 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: cannot afford a nice Dell laptop, just buys the first 418 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: one off of Amazon, as we all do with different products. So, 419 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 2: by the way, at this point, around twenty minutes have 420 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: passed just to get to this screen. It then took 421 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: another thirty three minutes for the updates to finish, and 422 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 2: then another minute and fifty seven seconds to log in, 423 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: at which point a screen popped up, telling me to 424 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 2: set up a browser and discover the best of Windows, 425 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 2: including finding the apps I love from the Microsoft Store, 426 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: and the option to create an AI generated theme of 427 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 2: my browser or for my browser. Even the laptop, by 428 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: the way between each screen felt like it was just 429 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: shaking visually, like the animations jutted viciously. You just get 430 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: this constant sense that this thing sucks from the moment 431 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 2: you use it. And so I finally at this point 432 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: got to my new laptop, my beautiful new Asa laptop 433 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 2: that's stunk. And then I opened the start bar, which 434 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: is ostensibly a place where you'd have apps, right, apps 435 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: that you'd use on the computer, and I saw some 436 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: of the things like Outlook, an email client that's not 437 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: actually installed and requires you to download it. You click 438 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: it and it then downloads again. At an option for 439 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: a travel website called booking dot com, just an ad 440 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: along with a link to LinkedIn another ad for Microsoft property. 441 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: One app Clipchamp, was installed, but immediately needed to be updated, 442 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: which did not work when I hit update, which then 443 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 2: forced me to go find the updates page, which then 444 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: showed me at least forty different apps called things like 445 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: sweet Labs, Inc. I do not know what any of 446 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: this stuff was. It's just so strange. I tiped Sweet 447 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: Labs into the soar and it took a little shaky, 448 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: juttery like the animation's hitched a bit. And then it 449 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: opened this giant menu with half of it dedicated to 450 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 2: Mark Twain's birthday, and which had two different Mark Twain 451 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: related links, a quiz of the day in four different 452 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 2: games available for download. At this point, by the way, 453 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: I've been able to do nothing on this computer. I 454 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: could have loaded Edge, but I'll get to that in 455 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: a minute. I also should be clear that the computer 456 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: was pausing slightly every time I typed a letter. Every 457 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: animation felt so clunky and juttery. Even moving the windows 458 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 2: around didn't feel smooth. It's just slow. It felt cheap. 459 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: And the operating system, previously something I'd considered to be 460 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 2: the thing that operates the computer, it's actively rotten. It's 461 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: full of ads, sponsored content, suggested adds, and intrusive design 462 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: choices that make the system slower and actively upset the user. 463 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: Now at this point it's important to add what operating 464 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 2: system it is. I'll get to that shortly, and the 465 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: reason I'm explaining all of this in such agonizing detail 466 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: is that this is the experience that I believe is 467 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 2: more indicative of the average person's use of the computer 468 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: than anybody else's. It's this, It's Windows, the crappiest, shittiest Windows. 469 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: And though it's tough to gauge how many of these things, 470 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: these crappy laptops are sold to make it a best 471 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 2: seller on Amazon, laptops in this price point, which use 472 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: a specific version of Windows called eleven Home in S mode, 473 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: dominate Amazon's bestseller lists, along with apples significantly more expensive 474 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: MacBook Air and Pro series. It's reasonable to believe that 475 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: a large amount of laptops sold in America match this 476 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: price point and spec There are two similar ones on 477 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: best Buyers best Sellers, or at least they were at 478 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: the time I wrote this script, and as of writing 479 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: this sentence down, which would have been very beginning of December, 480 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 2: multiple different laptops of this very specific specification are on 481 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 2: the front of Target's laptop page. And if I haven't 482 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: made it completely clear, this means that millions of people 483 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: are likely using a laptop that's burdensomely slow, full of 484 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: targeted advertising. And content baked Inton operating system in a 485 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: way that's either impossible or difficult to remove for millions 486 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 2: of people, and it really could be tens of millions 487 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 2: of people considering the ubiquity of these laptops. The experience 488 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 2: of using the computer is both actively exploitative and incredibly 489 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 2: incredibly slow. Even loading our MSN dot com, the very 490 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: first page you see when you open a web browser 491 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: in Windows Home S immediately hits you with ads for eBay, 492 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 2: QVC and QuickBooks with icons that sometimes don't load. By 493 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: the way, about Windows eleven Home in S mode that 494 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: you might not have heard of. This it's a special 495 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 2: version of Windows where you can only use apps from 496 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 2: the Windows Store, and on top of that, it's supposedly 497 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 2: more efficient. I've used quite a few of these laptops now, 498 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 2: and they're the slowest, won keyest pieces of shit ever. 499 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 2: But they're cheap. And it's not just the crappy hardware either, 500 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: it's every part of the operating system, which feels like 501 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 2: it's built to hound you to use some sort of 502 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 2: Microsoft product, or some sort of product that Microsoft or 503 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 2: the laptop manufacturer has been paid to make your set. Well, 504 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 2: one can hope that people buying these laptops have an 505 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: awareness of anything. The reality is they're being dumped into 506 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: a kind of tjmax version of computing, except Tjmax clothes 507 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 2: don't sometimes scream at you to download TJ maxplus will 508 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 2: stop functioning because you use them too fast. Now I 509 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: say this, haven't shopped there in a while, but I 510 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 2: assume this is still the case. Again, this is how 511 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: most people are experiencing modern computing. And it isn't because 512 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: this is a big business. It's because laptop sales have 513 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 2: begun to fall, and they've been falling for over a decade, 514 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 2: and manufacturers and Microsoft need as many ways to grow 515 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: revenue as possible, even if the choices they make are 516 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: actively harmful to the consumer. Also, I swear to God, 517 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: if your answer here is get a MacBook Air, there 518 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: are only six hundred dollars. I beg you. I plead 519 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: with you to speak with people outside of your income 520 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: bracket at a time when entire election was decided in 521 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: part because everything's more expensive. At this point, said person 522 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: using this laptop can now log onto the Internet, by 523 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: the way, and begin using websites like Facebook and Instagram 524 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 2: and YouTube, all of which that have algorithms we don't 525 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 2: really underst but they have been regularly proven to be 526 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: actively and deliberately manipulative and harmful. And I know I'm angry. 527 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: I mean whatever. You listened to this show and this 528 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 2: is the finhale of this year. You know how pissed 529 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: off I am. But the picture I'm trying to paint 530 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 2: is one of terror and abuse. The average person's experience 531 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: of using a computer starts with aggressive interference delivered in 532 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 2: a shoddy, sludge like frame, and the wider Internet opens 533 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 2: up to said user, which has already been battered by 534 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: a horrible user experience by the way, They're immediately thrown 535 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 2: into this heavily algorithmic feed of some sort, each different 536 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 2: feed built to condom in a unique way, feeding whatever 537 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: holds their attention and chucking ads in there as best 538 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: they can as they browse the web, websites like the Vergin, 539 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 2: NBC and used feature stories from companies like world Trending 540 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 2: dot com with advertisements with bizarre toys written in the 541 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 2: style of a blog so intentional in their deceit that 542 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 2: the page in question has a huge disclaimer at the 543 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,479 Speaker 2: bottom saying it's an ad as they're clunky, shuddering, shitty 544 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 2: laptop hitches between every scroll they go to ESPN dot com. 545 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: When the laptop slows to a crawl, everything slows to 546 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: a crawl. Why why, god damn it is everything so 547 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 2: fucking slow? These people say, I'll just stay on Facebook 548 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 2: or Instagram or YouTube. At least that place doesn't crash 549 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: half the time or trick me. Sadly not, The biggest 550 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 2: trick that these platforms played wasn't the algorithm, but the convenience. 551 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,440 Speaker 2: In an internet it's so horribly poisoned by growth capitalism, 552 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: these platforms show a degree of peace and consistency, even 553 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 2: if they're specifically engineered to manipulate you. Using the computer 554 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: in the modern age is so inherently hostile that it 555 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: pushes us towards core part authoritarians like Apple, Microsoft, Google 556 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: and Meta. And now that every website is so desperate 557 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: for our email to show us ads and to push 558 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: stuff on us, it's either harmful or difficult for the 559 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 2: average person to exist online. So of course they're going 560 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 2: to go to the big box websites they feel comparatively safe, 561 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: even if they're not. When every single website needs to 562 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: make as much money as possible because they're private equity 563 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 2: or head which fund or massive corporate owners need to 564 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 2: make more money every year without fail. The incentives are 565 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 2: building the Internet, veer away from providing a service or 566 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 2: information and towards putting you the listener in silent service 567 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: of a corporation. If you're technologically savvy in reading this, 568 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 2: by the way, sit down and think. Think for a 569 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: second about the amount of effort you've put into mitigating 570 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: the problems with the Internet and modern computing. Fresh in 571 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: stores of windows and new machines, avoiding certain websites because 572 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 2: you've learned what the bad ones look like, not interacting 573 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: with random people in your dms because you know that's 574 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 2: what a spambot looks like, and so on and so forth. 575 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: Think about it. I know a lot of you are 576 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: very technologically savvy, but you're instinctually ducking and weaving around 577 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 2: an Internet and digital ecosystem that continually tries to interrupt you. 578 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: You're batting away pop ups and silencing notifications, knowing that 579 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: they all want something from you. And I need you 580 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: to realize that most people are not like you, and 581 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: you too are actively victimized by the tech ecosystem as 582 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 2: a result, And like I said a few weeks ago, 583 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 2: I believe that most people are actively can cast by 584 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: their daily lives because most people's daily lives are on 585 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 2: the computer or their smartphones, and those lives have been 586 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: stripped of dignity. When they look at the media, the 587 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 2: best they'll get is a degree of hmm. Algorithm bad 588 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 2: is bad? Is computer? Is Facebook? Not good? Actually, I 589 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: take it back. You don't really get that either. You 590 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 2: don't really get you know how bad Facebook and Instagram are. 591 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: You don't even get the media really covering it. It 592 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: drives me insane. Yet it's so much more than just 593 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: the algorithm. It's almost the entirety of the digital ecosystem, 594 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: from websites to apps to the devices we use every day. 595 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: The fact that so many people likely use a laptop 596 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 2: that's equal parts unfit for the task and stuffed full 597 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 2: of growth, hacked poison is utterly goddamn disgraceful because it 598 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 2: means that the only way to escape the poison is 599 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 2: to simply have more money. Those who can't afford a 600 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: three hundred dollars at least phone or a six hundred 601 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: dollar laptop are left to use this offensively bad technology, 602 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: and we have at society scale simply accepted that this 603 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: is how things go. The result is that everything's a 604 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: chaotic mess. By everything, I mean almost every digital experience, 605 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: like I've been saying. And if you still believe the 606 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: digital world has no bearing on the physical world, you're 607 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: a dumbass. Everything you do, for the most part, goes 608 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 2: through absent websites. It's impossible to avoid, and it gets 609 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 2: harder to weighe through if you aren't wealthy enough or 610 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 2: lucky enough to have someone teach you or own a 611 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 2: powerful enough device, which is not something that really happens 612 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: in school. In any case, they're not really loading you 613 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: up with the most powerful stuff. Nor do I believe 614 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: that schools are sitting there and telling people not just 615 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 2: how to use the computer, to make sure the computer 616 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 2: doesn't use you. Yeah, even on the expensive devices, you're 617 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 2: still a victim of algorithmic and growth hack manipulation, even 618 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: if you're aware of it. Knowing allows you to fight back, 619 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: even if it's just to stop yourself being overwhelmed by 620 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: the mess, and means that you can read things that 621 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 2: can tell you what new horrors we can avoid next. Still, 622 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: the target, and you're still receiving hundreds of marketing emails 623 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: a week, you still receive spam calls, and you're still 624 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: unable to use Facebook or Instagram without being bombarded by 625 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 2: ads and algorithmically charged content. And I realized in this 626 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: episode I've kind of brought the hammer down that I've 627 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: called imaginary or real people dumbasses attack people that are listening. 628 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: I'm not really angry at you. I'm not. I know 629 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: it might sound like that, and it really isn't. The 630 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: conditions of society have adjusted so that we've just accepted 631 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: how bad things are. That we've just said it sucks, 632 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 2: but you know, it's everywhere. So what you're going to 633 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: do about it? And I'm angry about it because I 634 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: feel like my peers in the tech media don't take 635 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 2: it seriously either. They've just become numb to it like 636 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: we all have, and it sucks. We shouldn't become numb 637 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: to this. If we just had toxic dump in the streets, 638 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: and who knows what the upcoming EPA, whether we will, 639 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 2: we'd say something right. If we were getting burned by 640 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 2: random things, we would be upset, we'd be like ough ouch. 641 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: But because these little attacks, these little indignities are so 642 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: subtle and so common, they're everywhere. It's kind of hard 643 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 2: to talk about. It's kind of hard to have language about. 644 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 2: And in the next episode, I'm going to talk about 645 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: why that language is so important, about how fighting back 646 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: is discussing and raising these problems. And I don't mean 647 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 2: with your congressman. I don't mean with elected officials, though 648 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: that might work, that might help. It's about having a 649 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: continual societal conversation. It's about the next time that you 650 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 2: or your friends says I just don't get how the 651 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 2: computer works, stopping your someone saying no, probably not. It's 652 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 2: that they keep changing how the computer works to make 653 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: it work against us. It's why I've been so annoyed 654 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 2: the last year. And in this two part finale, I 655 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 2: want you to remember that you're the victim. You're the 656 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 2: victim of a con and I can't wait for you 657 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: to hear the next episode to come in a few days. 658 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Better Offline. 659 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 3: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 660 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 661 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 3: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com. 662 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 1: M A. T. 663 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: T O s O W s ki dot com. 664 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 3: You can email me at easy at better offline dot 665 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 3: com or visit better offline dot com to find more 666 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 3: podcast links and of course my newsletter. I also really 667 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: recommend you go to chat dot Where's Youreed dot at 668 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 3: to visit the discord, and go to our slash. 669 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank you so 670 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 2: much for listening. 671 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 672 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia 673 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,959 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 674 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.