1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly frying. Back In 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: we did an episode about the Confederate submarine h L. Hunley, 5 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: and at the end of that episode we talked about 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: some research that had been done by Dr Rachel Lance 7 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: about the cause of the disaster that killed the Hunley's 8 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: entire crew. We just replayed that episode as a Saturday 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: Classic this past weekend for folks who don't know that story. Uh. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: Dr Lance and we had a brief email exchange after 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: that after the Friends of the Hunley issued a press 12 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: release that kind of dismissed her findings without really engaging 13 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: with her hypothesis. And now she has written a whole 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: book about that research, not just about the conclusions that 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: she came to, but also her whole process of research, experimenting, 16 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: and sifting through information to really get to the truth 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: of it. That book is called In the Waves, My 18 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: Quest to Solve the Mystery of a Civil War Submarine. 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: Dr Lance was kind enough to sit down with me 20 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: to talk about it. We are sharing that interview today, 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: so I'm here today interviewing Dr Rachel Lance, author of 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: In the Waves, My Quest to Solve the Mystery of 23 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: a Civil War Submarine. That book I really loved reading. 24 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: It combines science and history and memoir altogether, while recounting 25 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: her PhD research and to what caused the disaster aboard 26 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,199 Speaker 1: the h L. Hunley. That disaster led to the death 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: the whole crew during the U. S. Civil War. So welcome, 28 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: Dr Rachel Lance. Thank you. First, can you tell us 29 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: a bit about yourself and your background. Well, as you mentioned, 30 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: I did my PhD, and I did that at Duke University, 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: and what I am is a biomedical engineer, and that's 32 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: a really vague term. It can encompass a lot of things, 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: but I specifically study patterns of injury and trauma that 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: occur to people. One of the subjects I really enjoy 35 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: studying and I'm passionate about is trauma patterns from explosions. 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because not only do 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: I get to occasionally set explosions while I'm researching those, 38 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: but also it's a very real problem that still affects 39 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: a lot of active duty servicemen and women. So I 40 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: worked on that PhD at Duke while I was also 41 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: working for the U. S. Navy, which ties together those 42 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: two interests, and as part of that research. It started 43 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: out as a little bit of a side project, but 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: it ended up being a bit like quicksand I started 45 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: researching this case of the Civil War submarine H. L. Henley. 46 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: In this book, you talk about knowing from the start 47 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: that this project about the Hunley was going to be complex, 48 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: and that historical projects that you might work on always are. 49 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: So what are some of the complexities that are involved 50 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 1: with doing scientific research on historical projects, especially once that 51 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: folks that are outside this whole world might not think of. 52 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: The biggest complexity is always that human memory is really unreliable. 53 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: I had learned this the hard way when my advisor, 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Dale Bass, and I had started working on a project 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: looking at shell shock two soldiers who are operatives during 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: World War One, and what we discovered over the course 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: of that project is that when someone is unexpectedly near 58 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: an explosion, they tend to think the exclusion is a 59 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: lot closer than it actually was. So for that case, 60 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: that was a huge complicating factor. And add that on 61 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: top of the normal issues of any history project, where 62 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: all of the information is buried somewhere in archives, and 63 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: to get any piece of data you have to go 64 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: through boxes and boxes of old file handwritten documents that 65 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: are not searchable. I knew that that would kind of 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: have to happen with the Hunley as well, that I 67 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: would be dealing with these battles between different testimonies that 68 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: disagreed with each other, with people who could be considered 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: unreliable witnesses and might not be telling things as accurately 70 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: as they actually happened when they wrote them down. And 71 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: in addition, just the general inability to type it into 72 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: Google and find the answer and instead of have to 73 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: go to an archive. That has definitely come up on 74 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: the show before when we have seen sometimes a little 75 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: surprised that people in a particular historical period did not 76 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: have a piece of information and it's just because like 77 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: they didn't have access to it. It was in some 78 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: archive in some other country and they had never been there, 79 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: right right. Sometimes there's also a language barrier too, Like 80 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: I would have really loved to look at some of 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: the old submarine prototypes from other countries. There are some 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: records of some from China, things like that, but I 83 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: do not speak sufficient Chinese for that research, right, right. 84 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: So you're talk in your book about how before shifting 85 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: your focus onto the Hunley, you had been studying blast 86 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: injuries in World War Two, specifically in people who were 87 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: in the water when they were hurt. Can you tell 88 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: me a little bit about that research and where you 89 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: were kind of thinking it might lead you before you 90 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: switched onto this other focus. Well, I started that research 91 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: just because, like any PhD student, I was looking for 92 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: a project. You need to pick your own dissertation project, 93 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: and it has to be a substantial enough contribution to 94 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: the world of science that they're then going to call 95 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: you doctor afterwards. So for me, as someone who had 96 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: been working for the Navy and had previously been working 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: building underwater breathing systems, that translation of my work into 98 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: looking at underwater explosions seemed really natural. And on top 99 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: of that, the more I dug into what the current 100 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: guidelines are for safety from underwater blasts, the more I 101 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: realized that we don't know very much about it. So 102 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: that's actually part of ongoing research for me. It's something 103 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: I still want to keep continue pursuing, and I've been 104 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: picking away out slowly. But the way that I was 105 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: doing it, and the way that I got started was 106 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: looking at World War Two soldiers who had ended up 107 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: in the water when their ships were sunk. So this 108 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: was happening in the battles in both the Atlantic and 109 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: the Pacific. Some enemy force would end up sinking their ship, 110 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: and what would happen was they often had a depth 111 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: charge that was primed and ready to go on board 112 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: the deck because they were typically fighting submarines, and as 113 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: their ship went down, the depth charge would slide off 114 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: the back as the rest of the vessel's sake, and 115 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: then when it got to its predetermined depth where the 116 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: trigger was set for, it would go off. Now, at 117 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: this point, it's kind of friendly fire by like an 118 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: inanimate object. And these guys would be in the water 119 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: and they've been been swimming away. They knew this was coming, 120 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: so they tried to get as far as possible. And 121 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: so what happened was for me as a researcher, you 122 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: have these hundreds of case reports of men who are 123 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,119 Speaker 1: swimming in the water, who know about how far away 124 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 1: they're sinking ship is, who are aware of that distance, 125 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: which is important, and then who end up with this 126 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: variety of injuries and for an injury bou mechanist person 127 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: like me, you could take that and turn that into 128 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: a useful guideline for how far away you need to 129 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: be in order to be safe. So the sort of 130 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: end goal was to figure out guidelines if you're in 131 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: the water, you need to get this far away in 132 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: order to be a little safer from the blast exactly. 133 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: My work is always about safety guidelines and protective equipment, 134 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: which is actually part of why I like it because 135 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: I kind of feel good about that every day. Yeah, 136 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: but typically if someone is trying to do harm, they'll 137 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: just overestimate how much TNT they need or whatever explosive 138 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: they're using. But if you want to be safe, you 139 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: need to know how far away you need to evacuate 140 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: from that charge. So, yeah, that's what I was trying 141 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: to do, is come up with a more meaningful guideline 142 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: for how far away people need to be from these 143 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: explosions before they are at lower or zero risk of 144 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: injury and death. In your book, we will have hopefully 145 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: listeners will have listened to our H. L. Henley episode 146 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 1: as a Saturday classic before they come into this, or 147 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: they will already be familiar with the basics of the 148 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: Huntley disaster. In your book, you walk through the steps 149 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: that you took to disprove some of the proposed explanations 150 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: for what caused this disaster um as well as the 151 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: very long process of gathering the data to support the 152 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: explanation that you've concluded is the right one. How did 153 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: the process of trying to rule out what didn't happen 154 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: compare to the process of trying to confirm what did happen? Well, 155 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: I think it was a lot easier to rule out 156 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: the other theories because they didn't involve me getting into 157 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: a farm pond. That's the biggest difference right there is 158 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I got to do a lot of that work in 159 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: a room with electricity. So for the two main other 160 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: theories that I looked at were the theories that the 161 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: crew suffocated inside the close hall, which seems like an 162 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: obvious question to ask, right, this is a homemade submarine 163 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: and so it's a very real possibility that they simply 164 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: ran out of air. And then the other question was 165 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: whether or not someone from the crew of the Housa 166 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: Tonic while shooting at the Hunley managed to hit them 167 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: and sink the vessel or at least kill the captain. 168 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: The first one that I did was the suffocation. The 169 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: actual word is asphyxiation. Suffocation is only when you read 170 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: out of oxygen. I don't need to get tu nitpicking, 171 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: but that's like kind of a thing I care about, um. 172 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: And so for that one, that was largely math. So 173 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: I was looking at the pictures of the Hunley, and 174 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: I was creating models, and I was measuring gas bass 175 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: and I was using historical research from our field of 176 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: respiratory physiology and trying to calculate how much oxygen they 177 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: would have used in how much carbon dioxide they would 178 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: have produced. So that one was largely math. The second one, 179 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: the lucky shot theory. We both went to a firing range, 180 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: which was it was a fun day, um, but we 181 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: got to use some historically accurate weapons and shoot at 182 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: cast iron samples to look at the damaging curd there. 183 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: But that was also again a largely calculation based thing. 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: So the Hunley was discovered meters east of the wreck 185 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: of the Hoosatonic. Now the reason that's interesting is because 186 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: that's pretty far. So if the crew of the who 187 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: Satonic was shooting at the Huntley and they hit her, 188 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: or they killed the lieutenant. Why did this thing drift 189 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: over three football fields further out to see before anyone 190 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: took any kind of corrected action. Um. And so then 191 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: for the blast experiments, those were wildly different, and I 192 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,359 Speaker 1: kind of hinted at that, but I really can't overstate 193 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: what a weird physical setup that was. I had to 194 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: befriended tobacco farmer because there was no way Duke was 195 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: letting me use live explosives on campus. Um. We got 196 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: the a t F involves, so we're making sure we're 197 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: doing things legally and safely, but we were also pretty 198 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: far from any electrical outlets, and a lot of that 199 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: project was me starting with marine boat batteries and building 200 00:10:55,640 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: electrical harnesses to power the normal measuring equipment that I 201 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: could typically just stick into an outlet in the lab. 202 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: And so that's obviously just like a really really wild 203 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: and different type of experiment to do. So I think 204 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: that that was probably the big difference you mentioned in 205 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: the book. But you are not the only person to 206 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: have suggested that blast trauma could have had a role 207 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: in this disaster, just that you're the first person to 208 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: actually back that up with data. Who were some of 209 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: the other people to make that connection earlier on, the 210 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: earliest one I could find was actually from seventy seven, 211 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: and I was, yeah, I was pretty excited about running 212 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: across that quote because I felt like this kindred spirit 213 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: tie through the times. But um, yeah, there was a 214 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: reporter who was publishing in the New Orleans paper and 215 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: he wrote, undoubtedly the concussion produced by the exclusion of 216 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: the torpedo destroyed instantly the lives of Dixon and his crew, 217 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: So pretty early on there's this suspicion that the blast 218 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: might have had something to do with the crew deaths. 219 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: And personally, I think that's pretty interesting that there's ever 220 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: an argument against it, because throughout this whole project, my 221 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: family and I were jokingly referring to it as people 222 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: near a giant bumb sometimes die. Um, this this charge 223 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: was at least a hundred thirty five pounds. I think 224 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: there's a better historical record to show that was actually 225 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: two d pounds of black powder and it was only 226 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: sixteen feet away from the hull of the submarine. Sometimes 227 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: the Hunley as a submarine U and it's it's mission 228 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: that night is described as a David versus Goliath story, 229 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: with this tiny little submarine that was really really small 230 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: sinking a massive worship Um. And in some ways your 231 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: book reads to me like the whole book is that 232 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: David versus Goliath story, because you were working on a 233 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: PhD dissertation, albeit I mean at a large and wealthy university, 234 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: but like, graduate students are not known for having tons 235 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: of money and resources at their disposal all the time, 236 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: and you were trying to get access to information and 237 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: resources from an established organization that just did not seem 238 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: open to sharing that with you. Was this parallel that 239 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: something that occurred to you as it was happening, not 240 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: in the way you've raised it. No, if I be honest, um, 241 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: as a scientist, and like I'm still an active scientist, 242 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: they work now as faculty at Duke, but science always 243 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: feels like the goliath. I always feel like this one 244 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: little person who's just trying so hard to find the truth, 245 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: and every experiment I've ever set up, it's felt like 246 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: the odds were stacked against me. So I wouldn't necessarily 247 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: say I felt like a little David because I was 248 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: a graduate student working by myself, but which I wasn't. 249 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: I did have a great team, so that that's part 250 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: of it, like every scientist has a team, um. But 251 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: I think it's more the fact of every time you 252 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: pursue a scientific endeavor, there's this feeling of a of 253 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: a somewhat impossible mission. Um. To me, I think of 254 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: it a little bit like astronomy. Like I didn't have 255 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: direct access to the boat, okay, but not everyone who 256 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: studies astronomy has physically been to a star. That's a 257 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: great point. I also noticed as I was reading that 258 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: I felt in some ways that it was a celebration 259 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: of outsiders and amateurs because where you did wind up 260 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: getting some of that information was like like from a 261 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: person who just loved to make models of ships, like 262 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: not necessarily from a person who could could back up 263 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: with a bunch of bona fides why they love to 264 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: make these ships. What I've learned is that the Internet 265 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: is just full of nerds, and I mean that in 266 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: the best possible way, Like we're out there, guys, no 267 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: matter what your passion is, there's someone out there who 268 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: shares it. Yes, so you mentioned my go Christophiley, who 269 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: deserves so much credit because he's been watching the Hunley 270 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: since the day it came up from the bottom of 271 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: the ocean and just taking like screen grabs as the 272 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,479 Speaker 1: friends of the Hunley and the conservation experts have webcams 273 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: as they were picking away at it, and so he 274 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: would like watch to take screen grabs and use it 275 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: to build this unbelievably elaborate model, which even has um 276 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: the correct number of rivets in the hall. Yeah, it's 277 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: down to the minutia. So if you don't mind his 278 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: his website where you can play with the model is 279 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: Vernian Era, which is the r N I A N. 280 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm in no way affiliated. I just really 281 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: love it, Like um, I loved reading about it, so yeah, 282 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: I'm enthusiastic about going and looking at that later. One 283 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: are the things that we mentioned in that prior episode 284 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: that we'd already did on Huntley, was that one of 285 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: its predecessors, which was the Pioneer, had been scuttled to 286 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: keep it from falling into enemy hands. You actually unearthed 287 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: information working on your book that contradicts that. Can you 288 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: talk about that a little bit? Yes, So the story 289 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: of the Pioneer is a little bit muddled by the 290 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: fact that there were two submarines that were both two 291 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: man crews that were being tested in the same area, 292 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: which is link Pontra train in outside of New Orleans. 293 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: And this was a story that became really important to 294 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: me because I found a touch of deception about it. Um. 295 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: There is one book called The H. L. Henley. It's 296 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: by historian named Tom Chaffin, and he did a meticulous 297 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: and diligent job of reporting basically every historical document he 298 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: could find at the time about the Henley. And he 299 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: is the only author who I could find who accurately 300 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: reported this one letter that was written towards the tail 301 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: end of the Civil War as the Union took New 302 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: Orleans and then or did to right back about the 303 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: inventory of what they were finding there. And what this 304 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: letter said was they had found this submarine. It included 305 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: a very detailed drawing, so it was an engineering scaled 306 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: drawing done by a professional from the actual physical submarine. 307 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: And it also said that two contrabands were smothered to 308 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: death inside of it. And the word contraband used during 309 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: the Civil War was the Northern term for enslaved men 310 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: and women. Because, um, they said, if the South considered 311 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: these human beings property, then as they swept through they 312 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: could possess their so called property as the contraband of war. 313 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: And so this was kind of their sneaky way of saying, like, 314 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: of course, we get to free the slaves as we 315 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: come through. So they started referring to UM slaves and 316 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: former slaves as contrabands. And so what this says is, 317 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: this is a story about this prototype submarine that they 318 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,239 Speaker 1: physically had in their position, and we know it was 319 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: the CSS Pioneer that had been pie litted by two 320 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: of these unfortunate enslaved men who died inside because it's 321 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 1: sank to the bottom of the lake. Now, this is 322 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: a story that's been a little bit debated. As I'm 323 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: sure you already know, Tracy, sometimes history changes. So as 324 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: we recover new documents and as people find new things 325 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: in archives all the time, we get better reinforcement of 326 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: what might have been previously unreliable stories. And so in 327 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: addition to this letter, there's also a third hand account 328 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: from the same thing of um someone who was going 329 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: through the South and New Orleans and was reporting the 330 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: words from a first hand witness that this was a 331 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: test by a wealthy slave owner, a plantation owner in 332 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: the area who had forced his slaves to pilot his 333 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: prototype submarine as part of a public demonstration with a 334 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: carnival like atmosphere, which obviously has just layers of complexity 335 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: and difficulty um And then in addition to that, as 336 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 1: I was researching it, I found a third reference, and 337 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: that for me was enough to reinforce those other two. 338 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: This the reference was a diary of a man named 339 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: John Roy, and he was a known associate of the 340 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: people who built the Hunley, one of whom was James 341 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: McLintock and John Roy, around the time of this supposed demonstration, 342 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: was invited to go watch a demonstration of a submarine 343 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: in Lake Country train and that, to me, that third 344 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: source was enough to reinforce that this story really actually 345 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: occurred and not unfortunately, two enslaved men were forced inside 346 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: and lost their lives as a result of the failure 347 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: of the submarine to operate as planned. But the reason 348 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: that I really wanted to dedicate more time to finding 349 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: additional sources, and this is actually something that I planned 350 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,719 Speaker 1: to continue picking away at, and I hope other historians 351 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: also keep an eye out these resources too, is because 352 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: there is an author who has modern day publications about 353 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: the Huntley who decided to change the wording in that 354 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: historical letter, so instead of two contramands, he wrote that 355 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: it was just two normal men, and then he discussed 356 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: how they were actually Confederate volunteers, which is obviously not true. 357 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 1: And to me, it's an appalling misuse of history when 358 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: you try and cover up something like that. Just just 359 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: acknowledge what happened, um, and be honest. Yeah, I would 360 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: agree with that. Um. When when you and I were 361 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: arranging this interview and I got the review copy of 362 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: the book, um, you sent me an email that said 363 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: something like buckle up for chapter three. And when I 364 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: was reading chapter three and I got to this part 365 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: that we just talked about. I think chapter three was 366 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: the chapter I was like, I think this is what 367 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:04,719 Speaker 1: that was in reference to you. Yes, I have never 368 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: so badly. I just wanted to like pick up my 369 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: phone and somehow text to the author of a book 370 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,399 Speaker 1: and be likely serious that. I have had people tweet 371 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: at me that they're like, oh my god, yeah, yeah 372 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: that just happened. Yeah. So yeah, for that recent Saturday 373 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: classic that that folks have may have listened to, where 374 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: we said that it was scuttled to keep it from 375 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: falling into enemy hands, not correct. Yeah, but like I said, 376 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: there's still some debate because there was a second two 377 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: man submarine in the area at the same time. But yea, 378 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: so those two sometimes get confused with each other in 379 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: the historical record. Um, but yeah, it seems like a 380 00:21:48,680 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: story that definitely happened in that area. When talking about 381 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 1: your blast experiments in the book, you draw on a 382 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: quote from one of the sailors who died aboard the 383 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: Huntley about what they had done was quote considerable of 384 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: an undertaking and one that I never wished to undertake again. 385 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: So when you were, uh, what were you imagining that 386 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: these experiments were going to be like before you started, 387 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: because that makes it kind of clear how you felt 388 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: about them afterward. Yes, Um, that is how I felt 389 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: about them afterward, And now I enjoy telling the story 390 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: that I don't know that I would sign up for 391 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: them again. But when when I first started the project, 392 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: I honestly was just planning and looking at suffocation, So 393 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: calculations of oxygen and carbon dioxide or something that I 394 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: used to do all the time when I was building 395 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: underwater breathing systems. There's still something to do all the 396 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: time now that I work more in a respiratory physiology aspect, 397 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: and that was originally the goal. And then as I 398 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: got more into the blast aspects of it and more 399 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: engaged with this blast problem, the second goal was to 400 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: build a computer model. So I was still gonna be 401 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: sitting comfortably in my office and just letting my computer 402 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: run away over the weekend. But because of some of 403 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: the complexities of black powder and the way that that 404 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: is just an unbelievably difficult substance, that didn't work out either, 405 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: and it ended up becoming necessary to do a live experiment. 406 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: Well at that point, I'm kind of an addict when 407 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: when I get a puzzle, like if there's a if 408 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: there's a puzzle question, I'm I'm engaged with that until 409 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: I starved to death or I solve it, and so 410 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: I sort of had to keep going, and that's how 411 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 1: I ended up in a muddy pod with a scale model. 412 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: So there are so many fascinating historical tidbits scattered all 413 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: through this book, like how black powder was made, and 414 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: information about other submarines and other submarine accidents in history. 415 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: We'll reach some of your favorite historical details that you 416 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: came across while working on this. My favorite thing that 417 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: I discus heard of I was researching was actually about 418 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: the Rains brothers. So I ended up writing a whole 419 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: chapter on black powder, which is, I promise, so fascinating. 420 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: It was one of my favorite chapters. But the Rains brothers, 421 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: who are Gabriel and George Washington, were responsible for a 422 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: lot of the black powder and the explosives that the 423 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: Confederacy had. And I had originally written like this whole 424 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: multi page thing just about George Washington Rains, but I 425 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: ended up taking it out. It was just too much 426 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: of a sidebar um. But this guy was intense and 427 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: he was he just cracks me up because he was 428 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: on a mission to start the black powder mill for 429 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: the Confederacy. So they're short on black powder. There's no 430 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: black powder manufacturing to speak of down there, and the 431 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: black hate is limiting how much they can import. And 432 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: so this guy is like sleeping on railway cars. He's 433 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: never made black powder before, and this is an incredibly 434 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: dangerous thing to try to do, Like they build these 435 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: mills planning for explosion is to happen. And this guy's like, 436 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,239 Speaker 1: it's cool, I've got a pamphlet. And so he's like 437 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 1: riding around, doesn't have a home on these real cars, 438 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: looking for a place to build a mike powder mill 439 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: for the first time in his entire life, just with 440 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: so much confidence that I lack. But on top of that, 441 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: I got to go through a lot of his letters 442 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: to his brother Gabriel Reigns. Gabriel is his much much 443 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: older brother, something like fifteen and twenty years older. I'd 444 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: have to look up the exact numbers. And Gabriel was 445 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: the one who really joined the military first and became 446 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 1: the munition experts first. He's actually the person who invented 447 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: land mines. So obviously this is an interesting family. But 448 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: as George Washington's reigns starts to become more involved in 449 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: the military, he is writing about his activities in battle 450 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: to his older brother. And now since it's over outer 451 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: fifty years later, we can fact check him, and as 452 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: it turns out, he was just straight lying. Oh no, yeah, 453 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: I was sitting in these archives like reading these Georgia, 454 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: I did raise letters and like googling the battles, and 455 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: he was just making things up. And he was there 456 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: there tens of pages long where he describes in detail 457 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: like how what numbered they were and how the opposing 458 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: forces had all ammunitions and then you look it up 459 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: and they're like, at this battle, the Americans, oh numbered 460 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: the Mexican forces by three to one. Like so I 461 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: think that was probably one of my favorite things that 462 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: I discovered was this guy was just so excited about 463 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: telling his older brother about his war experiences that he 464 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: was just making stories. We're not real, that we're not real. 465 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: What surprised you the most when doing this research into 466 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: the Hunley or or just in generally when writing the book, 467 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: what surprised me was the amount of This is gonna 468 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: sound so cheesy, okay, but it's the true answer. It's 469 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 1: it's the amount of kindness that I found. So this 470 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: whole project was like me with four thousand dollars at 471 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: the beginning, and that was from a historical foundation at 472 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: Duke as well as the Hagley Library and Delaware, which 473 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: they just do black powder um, a lot of black 474 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: powder stuff, but that's not very much like in science. 475 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: That's like a comically small amount. And so I was 476 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: really dependent on the charity of other people. And it 477 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: was really really moving to me how many people were 478 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 1: willing to volunteer their time and resources so um, you know, 479 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: I start writing to the a t F about permitting, 480 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: and immediately I'm on the phone with this a t 481 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: F agent who's just excited about this project. And he's 482 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: remained a friend. Um, so we're still in touch all 483 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: the time, as well as this medical student who's a 484 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: former Army explosives ordinance disposal operator and he was so 485 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: excited about it. And both of these guys were just 486 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: willing to like show up at five am and jump 487 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: into forty degree water and I never heard one complaint 488 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: and we've just become friends from that. And the same 489 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: goes for like the farmer who let us use his land, 490 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: and as well as the people you mentioned, like people 491 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: I found just on the internet, people who have contacted 492 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: me about the Hunley even recently as yesterday, I had 493 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: someone who's passionate about collecting old currency email me just 494 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: to talk about like Dixon's mythological gold coin and so um, 495 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: that's when I think my favorite part of the project 496 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: and the thing that surprised me most is how many 497 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: people are willing to kind of volunteer a little piece 498 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: of themselves to help solve this question. That's awesome. Uh. 499 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: By coincidence. While I was preparing for this interview, I 500 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: found the text of the address that John R. McNeil 501 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: gave at the American Historical Association's annual meeting in January UM. 502 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: He's the past president of the American Historical Association. And 503 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: this address was called Peak Document and the Future of 504 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: Historical Research, and it was about how historians who are 505 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: working with primarius documents can, in his words, come up 506 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: with new wrinkles that breathe new meaning into old and 507 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: familiar documents, but that this gets harder and harder to 508 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: do when historians are going back to the exact same 509 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: documents over and over and over. So he talks a 510 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: lot about increasing contributions to the field of history that 511 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: are coming from science, from things like DNA analysis and 512 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: light our and other remote sensing and studying objects with 513 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: electron microscopes, and what all of this means in terms 514 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: of training future historians and their scientific literacy. You as 515 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: as like a scientist and engineer, how do you think 516 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: the study of science or engineering can benefit historians or 517 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: can affect the field of history. Well, he's already listed 518 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: a couple of really great examples of the way that 519 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: technology alone can kind of revive things that we can access. Right, 520 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: So for example, if you have the Dead Sea scrolls 521 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: where no, you can visibly read it, but now we 522 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: have advanced new imaging techniques that can be applied to 523 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: reading those words, then I'll automatically of a really obvious combination. 524 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: My personal favorite way that science and history get combined 525 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: is when we can kind of fact check our ancestors. Um. 526 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: So I really love these problems where for example, like 527 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: with the Hunley there were these cases of testimony of 528 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: seeing this blue light from shore that said, hey, we're 529 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: coming back, and I, as a scientist, can look at 530 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: that and be like did you see it though, and 531 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: then do some math and be like, oom I somehow 532 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: doubt this is physically possible based on the capabilities of 533 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: the human eye. And so I think that that really 534 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: lends insight into the way that we interpret things, because 535 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: then once you do that calculation and you say, Okay, 536 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: this is probably not a plausible story, you go back 537 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: to the original document and you're like, oh, well, this 538 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: wording could actually be interpreted in a different way. So 539 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: we're still going back to the same primary source documents, 540 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: but now we're coming back from a place of being 541 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: more informed instead of just trying to rehash the words 542 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: in a hypothetical fashion. Awesome. So this book and your 543 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: research into the Huntley that all came out of your 544 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: your pH d work. You are now Dr Rachel Lance. 545 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: That's that's finished. Yes, um so technically Tracy, technically now 546 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:36,479 Speaker 1: I'm Professor Rachel Lance. But Rachel signed. So so what 547 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: are you doing now and what's next for you? Well, 548 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: Duke couldn't get rid of me. I sort of just 549 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: moved in there and refused sleep. Um no, I'm just kidding. 550 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,239 Speaker 1: After I graduated, I did go back to work for 551 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: the Navy, which was a job that I was extremely 552 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: passionate about and love very much. But there was one 553 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: particular project that was near and dear to me because 554 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: it was based on um a man who died diving 555 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: on one of my projects. And he didn't Yeah, he 556 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: didn't dive because of the thing I had built, but 557 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: he was still um, he still died because of a 558 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: thing that kills a lot of unfortunately a lot of divers. 559 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: And so I received a little bit of an ultimatum 560 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: that would have had end that project, and I decided 561 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: that I would rather quit my job than quit that work. 562 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: So Duke thankfully took me in. They gave me, they 563 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: gave me a home. I was a home of scientist 564 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: for a little while. So now I officially have a 565 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: title and a faculty position, but I am continuing to 566 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: do dive medical research and underwater respiratory physiology research and 567 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: I'm loving every second of it and my requirement to them. 568 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: They actually laughed at me for because they were like, 569 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: you're the only one who's never who's requested not to 570 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: ever get tenure because I wanted to work part time. 571 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: So I'm already working on a second book as well, 572 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: and that's what I'm being with my time. Yeah, can 573 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: you can you tell us what the second book is about? 574 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: Or is that a little under wraps right now. I'm 575 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: actually hoping to hear back about it today, so by 576 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: the time this by the time this airs, hopefully I'll 577 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 1: have heard back about whether or not there's official deal. 578 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: But it will be another combination of science and history. 579 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: So you've already started doing a lot more archival work, um, 580 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: and it's a lot more military related medicine, and it's 581 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: about a group of scientists who were doing some pretty 582 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: crazy experiments on themselves and what they ended up discovering 583 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: from the damage they did to their own body really 584 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: really helped make D Day a success. I am intrigued 585 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,239 Speaker 1: by that. Before we wrap up, is like, is there 586 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: anything you just wish I had asked about or that 587 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: you just really want to make sure everyone knows about 588 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: about your work or this book. I think you've hit 589 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: all of the major ones. Is that a bad answer? 590 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I like to give folks the chance, if 591 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: you know, if there's some glaring thing that I really 592 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: need to need it to have been more on the 593 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: ball about. No, I think you did a great job. 594 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: I just want to mention um one thing that I've 595 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: really tried very hard to do about this book, and 596 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: I have chronic feelings of insufficiency about it, but I 597 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: think it's really important to remember with this story that 598 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: the Civil War is a fascinating period of history, but 599 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: it's something that we all really need to talk about, honestly, 600 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: and I tried very, very hard to do that in 601 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: this book. I tried very hard to pull in new 602 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: primary sist documents so that I could tell the story 603 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: of you know, some of the black men on board 604 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: the housatonic and things like that, and to try and 605 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: give a more complete version of that. And I think 606 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: that's just one of my big hopes moving forward, is 607 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: that people will start to discuss the Huntley as the 608 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: historically fascinating object it is, but in the proper context. 609 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Thank you for being here today, 610 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: and we're forgiving us your time again for folks who 611 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: are interested. This book is called In the Waves, My 612 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: Quest to Solve the Mystery of a Civil War Submarine. 613 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Thank you again to Dr Rachel 614 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: Lance for UH for sitting down to talk with me 615 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: about her book, also for being patient with me when 616 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: about three minutes elapsed before I realized I had only 617 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: started the recording on one side of our session. It 618 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 1: had been a while since I had done UH an interview, 619 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: and it was also the first time that I had 620 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 1: done it with the setup we're using with everybody recording 621 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 1: from their own homes because of the ongoing pandemic. So 622 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: thank you again UM for that. And I also have 623 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: a little bit of listener mail to take us out perfection. 624 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: This email is from Janine, who says, Dear Holly and Tracy, 625 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: I just listened to your podcast on holmech and practice 626 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 1: babies and found them fascinating. I had the same response 627 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: as Tracy to practice babies on hearing about and for 628 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 1: the first time, all right, those flower sack babies, I 629 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: remember that. Wait what, I'm so glad you went on 630 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: to talk about them. In particular. I thought it was 631 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 1: funny that neither of you took homech I'm about ten 632 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: years younger than you, and my school required both holmec 633 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: and shop for everyone in eighth grade. What I mostly 634 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: remember was making biscuits and sewing stuffed animals from kits. 635 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: They did let us use the power tools in the shops, 636 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: so it wasn't as useless as Tracy's experience. I have 637 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: a background in anthropology, so as I was listening to 638 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: the discussion on whether having that many caregivers was bad 639 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 1: for babies, all I could think was, well, it works 640 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: great and plenty of cultures. My main thought on hearing 641 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: the schedule the students kept with the baby was well, 642 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: that's not going to prepare you for parenting. You need 643 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: to be the sole caregiver to really get the experience. 644 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Probably a good idea. They didn't go that route, though, 645 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: there are a lot of issues with exploitation and consent 646 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: around the practice baby situation, which I think you both 647 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: did an excellent job unpacking both in the episode and 648 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: in the behind the scene. But I actually think the 649 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: fact that they were inexperienced students learning by doing is 650 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 1: the least problematic part. In addition to what Tracy said 651 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: about other fields that allow students to practice, there's the 652 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: basic fact that in our culture of nuclear family living, 653 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: most babies go home with parents who have little to 654 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 1: no experience with babies. I remember vividly leaving the birth 655 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,280 Speaker 1: center with my first child and thinking in a panic, 656 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: They're just gonna send this baby home with us. But 657 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 1: but I've never taken care of a baby. It's a tiny, 658 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: helpless human. What do I even do? And we didn't 659 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,919 Speaker 1: even have a professor of mothercraft to keep an eye 660 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: on how we were doing. Thanks Holly and Tracy. Love 661 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: the show. Especially appreciated your COVID chat when the closures 662 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: first happened. I really enjoyed the balance of topical episodes 663 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: and distracting episodes. I hope you're well and healthy, Janine. 664 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: Janine also had a ps saying that Janine wrote ages 665 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: ago about girl Scouting. We read the letter on the 666 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: Juliet Gordon Lowe episode. UM, and then goes on to say, Tracy, 667 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: you were surprised that Juliet spent so much of her 668 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,759 Speaker 1: life chasing after a man, and such an unworthy one 669 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: at that. I think of that part of her life 670 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,480 Speaker 1: in a different way to me. Her pursuit of and 671 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: marriage to William Lowe shows many of the same qualities 672 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: that she showed in founding Girl Scouts, and qualities that 673 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: she encouraged in girls through scouting. Tenacity, theiring, and a 674 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: commitment to doing what she felt was right, regardless of 675 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: the disapproval of society or people around her. So thank 676 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: you so much, Janine for this email. I had never 677 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 1: thought of the Juliet Gordon Lowe's life and her Ill 678 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: Fadd relationship that way at all. So UM, thank you 679 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: for that counterpoint. UH. If you'd like to write to 680 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: us about this or any other podcast, we're a history 681 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: podcast that I Heart radio dot com. We're all over 682 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 1: social media at missed in History. That's where you'll find 683 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: her Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest, and Instagram, and you can subscribe 684 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 1: to our show on the I Heart Radio app and 685 00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and anywhere else you get your podcast Stuff 686 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of I 687 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit 688 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 1: the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 689 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.