1
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,920
Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

3
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,200
Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

4
00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,000
Speaker 1: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with the

5
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: third part in our series on HeLa monsters and their

6
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,120
Speaker 1: close relatives, the beaded lizards, the lizards of the genus Heloderma.

7
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 1: If you haven't heard the other two parts of this series,

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 1: I would recommend you go back and listen to those.

9
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,520
Speaker 1: First we in the first episode talked about general HeLa

10
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: monster biology. We talked a lot about their venom and

11
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,120
Speaker 1: the excruciating effects of the Helo monster bite. In the

12
00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,040
Speaker 1: second episode, we talked about the HeLa monster, the kind

13
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 1: of living fossil, a bit about its evolutionary history, and

14
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 1: then also human beliefs about HeLa monsters that may or

15
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,760
Speaker 1: may not be rooted in fact. And then today we're

16
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,720
Speaker 1: back to talk talks more especially about heala monsters and medicine.

17
00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,080
Speaker 2: That's right, and before we get into Heala monster related

18
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,600
Speaker 2: medicine specifically, I wanted to back up just a little

19
00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,200
Speaker 2: bit and sort of set the stage. In fact, going

20
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,200
Speaker 2: back far enough, they're just talking about the use of

21
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 2: animals in medicine in general, So humans have long turn

22
00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:26,720
Speaker 2: to other organisms from medicine, obviously, to the extent that

23
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 2: you might not even think about it all that much.

24
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,000
Speaker 2: And it makes perfect sense that we would have stumbled

25
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,199
Speaker 2: onto this pretty early early on, because we consume other

26
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,160
Speaker 2: living things in order to live, and these various organism

27
00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,880
Speaker 2: derived substances offer an array of effects, short term and

28
00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 2: long term, beneficial, life threatening, mind expanding, religious experiences, psychedelic experiences,

29
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,480
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call them. The things that we

30
00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 2: eat have all sorts of effects, and we are what

31
00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,840
Speaker 2: we eat, and that covers a lot of ground in

32
00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 2: the human experience. Now, when it comes to what we

33
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,920
Speaker 2: can more specifically define as metis and thinking of it again,

34
00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,440
Speaker 2: not as anything overtly spiritual, but more curative or preventative,

35
00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,440
Speaker 2: plants are the most straightforward example. In some ways, I'm

36
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 2: reminded of a Chinese mythological figure that we've mentioned on

37
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,280
Speaker 2: the show multiple times, the figure of Shinong, the divine farmer,

38
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,840
Speaker 2: who samples all the plants in the world to determine

39
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,920
Speaker 2: which your food, which are poison and which are beneficial.

40
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 2: It's obviously a mythological simplification, but this is also it

41
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,040
Speaker 2: is also somewhat true like this is how humans work

42
00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 2: their way through the properties of local flora over the

43
00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,160
Speaker 2: course of generations and generations, figuring out you know, what

44
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 2: is good for us, what is not good for us,

45
00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,880
Speaker 2: and all the little spaces in between. Because this is

46
00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 2: obviously the case, some things in nature have evolved as

47
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 2: some sort of a weapon, a poison, at offensive chemical,

48
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 2: and taken in small doses, we can find uses for them,

49
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,240
Speaker 2: ways that they can be used as medicine, for example.

50
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 2: Now the floor connection is also an easy one to

51
00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 2: look at because a number of well known modern medications

52
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 2: stem from botanical sources. Aspirin is probably one of the

53
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,520
Speaker 2: best examples of this. It has roots in the ancient

54
00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 2: use of sal isolate rich plants like the willow, dating

55
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 2: back to the ancient world and even before. There's evidence

56
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:37,360
Speaker 2: that Neanderthals chewed poplar tree bark, for example, and traditional

57
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 2: medicine stemming from animal components go way back as well.

58
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,280
Speaker 2: We've discussed the ancient Egyptian use of honey, for example,

59
00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 2: and various ancient traditional medicinal systems, from traditional Chinese medicine

60
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 2: to aravedic medicine have made use of such components as

61
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 2: snake venom or tarantulas and various other animal components of

62
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,040
Speaker 2: both old and re incorporation. So, for instance, last year's

63
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: manta ray episodes, which we recently re aired, in that

64
00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 2: we touched on the fact that you know, you have

65
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 2: a traditional Chinese medicine which is quite old, but then

66
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:18,320
Speaker 2: very recently parts of manta rays were incorporated into some

67
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 2: of these traditions and it has no like real deep

68
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,040
Speaker 2: historical background nor any scientifically proven benefit.

69
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 1: Right, That's a good point. As we talked about, then

70
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,679
Speaker 1: just because something is called traditional doesn't mean it's actually

71
00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 1: an ancient tradition or a long running tradition. Some things

72
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,599
Speaker 1: are I think more called traditional because of the general

73
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,520
Speaker 1: milieu of behaviors they fit into, not necessarily because they

74
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 1: go way back in history.

75
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And we've touched to on some of the

76
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 2: ways that things that don't actually work can seem to work.

77
00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 2: You have everything from the blucebo effect or to that

78
00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,359
Speaker 2: sort of something is happening effect where I don't know,

79
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,720
Speaker 2: you take something and it causes your in to tinkle.

80
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,080
Speaker 2: You're not treating something that is even a dermatological issue,

81
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,520
Speaker 2: So you're treating something intestinal in nature. But your skin

82
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 2: is tingling, something is happening. The medicine is doing something,

83
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,200
Speaker 2: and then that, combined with the placebo effect, can create

84
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,560
Speaker 2: this idea that something is being cured.

85
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it made me vomit, therefore it does something. It's

86
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:20,920
Speaker 1: not nothing.

87
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, vomiting ain't nothing. You feel different afterwards or

88
00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 2: the other. So, yeah, many of these animal components that

89
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,000
Speaker 2: were used traditionally are not scientifically backed up today. They

90
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 2: have no provable effect. And again we're dealing with a

91
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,640
Speaker 2: lot of pre scientific medicine here, you know. So not

92
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,839
Speaker 2: everything is an example of somebody like trying to con

93
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 2: somebody that I think is typically more of a modern scenario.

94
00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,080
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of times people were doing the

95
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,000
Speaker 2: best they could with what tools they had, making educated guesses,

96
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,200
Speaker 2: and you know, some of these practices end up being

97
00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,360
Speaker 2: picked up even if they don't work. And it's important

98
00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,720
Speaker 2: to note that, especially when we start talking about some

99
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 2: of thecientific tools we have today, there is to a

100
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:07,720
Speaker 2: certain degree a reevaluation of some of these long standing

101
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 2: animal based or even plant based ingredients. Trying to figure out, okay,

102
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 2: what if there is something here in this that works.

103
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,280
Speaker 2: Maybe there's a way that we can really laser focus

104
00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,559
Speaker 2: on it today with our modern scientific tools and figure

105
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,839
Speaker 2: out what it is. But and I guess this comes

106
00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:27,479
Speaker 2: down to the fact that at the end of the day,

107
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 2: the idea of taking something from the process of another

108
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,960
Speaker 2: animal's body and somehow incorporating it in a meaningful way

109
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,919
Speaker 2: as medicine into our own body is perfectly reasonable. We

110
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 2: just didn't really have the science to do it until

111
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 2: the twentieth century. And these advancements hinge in large part

112
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,920
Speaker 2: on the manipulation of peptides. I'm going to try and

113
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 2: do like a broader description of what peptides are and

114
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 2: how we use them. I might miss some of the

115
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: nuances of it here, or certainly some of the the

116
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,480
Speaker 2: medical technical detail, but here it goes.

117
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:04,479
Speaker 1: So.

118
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:10,160
Speaker 2: Peptides are chains of amino acid smaller than proteins. Organisms

119
00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:15,960
Speaker 2: naturally produce peptides like endorphins, oxytocin, and insulin to regulate

120
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,400
Speaker 2: all manner of things in the body. You can think

121
00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 2: of them as as keys to do very specific things

122
00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 2: inside the cellular locks of particular organisms, and to limited

123
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,320
Speaker 2: extents those keys can work in other organisms. But when

124
00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 2: you take this peptide key from one animal, plug it

125
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,880
Speaker 2: into another animal, turn it. Yet you might get some benefits,

126
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:44,080
Speaker 2: but you could also end up with some complications rejection

127
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,120
Speaker 2: as well as allergies and so forth, and things can

128
00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 2: go wrong because ultimately that key was not meant for

129
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,600
Speaker 2: this lock. The breakthrough of the twentieth century was figuring

130
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 2: out how to make a fully human peptide key based

131
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,680
Speaker 2: on the peptides found in another organide, So taking the

132
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 2: key from this organism and not just sticking it into

133
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 2: the next, but changing it, creating kind of almost a

134
00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:15,680
Speaker 2: hybrid key, one will work without rejection in the target organism.

135
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,400
Speaker 2: So the successful synthesis of the first therapeutic peptide insulin

136
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,720
Speaker 2: in nineteen twenty one sets the stage for a number

137
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 2: of medical breakthroughs. The production of human insulin couldn't keep

138
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 2: up with demand for a while, and this required the

139
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 2: use of animal derived insulin until the successful development of

140
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,560
Speaker 2: recombinant insulin in nineteen seventy eight. And we have a

141
00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,160
Speaker 2: key peptide advancement related to snake venom in the nineteen

142
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 2: seventies as well. At this point, obviously we're getting into

143
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 2: into reptile venom and how we might take the reptile

144
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,439
Speaker 2: venom as a key in one organism and reuse it

145
00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 2: as a key in another organism to do something ultimately

146
00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,960
Speaker 2: rather different than was intended. And this has to do

147
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,520
Speaker 2: with the synthesis of captapril from Brazilian pit viper venom

148
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: to treat hypertension in some types of congestive heart failure.

149
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 2: So we mentioned in the one of the previous episodes

150
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 2: in a tangent about other venoms and other reptiles, notably

151
00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 2: in snakes, how different venoms target different parts of the

152
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 2: victim's body. So some you know, are aimed at the heart,

153
00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,600
Speaker 2: others of nervous systems. Other times it's tissue destruction. Well,

154
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 2: in this case, it was taking the cardiac toxin elements

155
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,360
Speaker 2: of the venom, the parts of the venom that are

156
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 2: targeting the cardiac system a cardiotoxin, and then retooling it

157
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,640
Speaker 2: into a medicine to treat cardiac conditions. So, before we

158
00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 2: come back and start really looking more at heala monsters

159
00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 2: in general, I just want to point out that, yeah,

160
00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 2: this sort of peptide based synthesis approach has become a

161
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,680
Speaker 2: major mover in pharmacology, and just a handful of other

162
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 2: examples of note include the non opiate pain medication ziconotide,

163
00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 2: which is derived from the toxin of the magician cone snail.

164
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,120
Speaker 2: You know, I can't remember if we've talked about cone

165
00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 2: snails on the show before. Maybe we have and it's

166
00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,120
Speaker 2: just been a long time, but these recently, Yeah, these

167
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,280
Speaker 2: are fascinating creatures in their own ride. So they they

168
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 2: they're mollusks with a shell and they hunt using a

169
00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,679
Speaker 2: toxic dart or harpoon, which is itself a modified radular

170
00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 2: tooth that they fire from their proboscis at prey to

171
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,719
Speaker 2: deliver one of the strongest venoms in nature, and then

172
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,840
Speaker 2: they reel the prey in via unattached tether. Get over here,

173
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 2: pretty much. Yeah, kind of like a yeah, toxic scorpion

174
00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,200
Speaker 2: slug or a snail rather it does have a does

175
00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,680
Speaker 2: have a shell. But yeah, these are amazing high powered

176
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,600
Speaker 2: tox and one of the most high powered toxins. But

177
00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 2: then gets reutilized into this pain medication. Let's see. Another

178
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,079
Speaker 2: one is and I may get some of these pronunciation

179
00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 2: wrongs because we're getting in these medication names, but there's

180
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,240
Speaker 2: aptifa battaitide. This is derived from the venom of the

181
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,439
Speaker 2: pygmy rattlesnake. And this is another cardiotoxin reutilized to prevent

182
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,080
Speaker 2: clotting during heart heart attacks. And then another one that

183
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 2: has no connection to snakes is or even really a

184
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 2: venom of any kind, is bi valid rudin. This is

185
00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 2: a synthetic take on the anti blood clotting properties of

186
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 2: the medicinal leeches saliva. So the medicinal leech, of course

187
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,600
Speaker 2: long used in medicine. This was a way to figure out, Okay,

188
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,520
Speaker 2: what are we getting out of this leach that's useful

189
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,880
Speaker 2: when dealing you know, when we want to prevent clotting.

190
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,360
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead and get that out turn it into

191
00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,080
Speaker 2: a medication via this peptide process.

192
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,480
Speaker 1: Is the leech wants to keep blood flowing.

193
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so let's and you know, for a

194
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 2: long time we have manipulated that to our favor, like

195
00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 2: get in there, leech, keep the blood flowing around this

196
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 2: vital area. But then we can just cut the leech

197
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:17,520
Speaker 2: out of it entirely, all right, Before we get heavy

198
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,000
Speaker 2: into peptides and helo monsters here, I wanted to take

199
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 2: just a few minutes to talk about older uses of

200
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,880
Speaker 2: the HeLa monster in medicine and in some cases indigenous medicine.

201
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 2: And for this we turn once more to Daniel D.

202
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 2: Beck's book Biology of HeLa Monsters and Beaded Lizards from

203
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 2: the University of California Press. This is the book we've

204
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 2: turned to throughout these episodes. So Beck profiles a number

205
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,680
Speaker 2: of different practices involving either the HeLa monster or beaded

206
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: lizards in general. First, from different indigenous practices, he mentions

207
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,560
Speaker 2: that the Aqua people of Sonora, Mexico believed that the

208
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 2: skin of these lizards had healing proper and you could

209
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:02,959
Speaker 2: place them over a wound and the wound would sort

210
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 2: of leech out the sickness or leach out the poison

211
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,080
Speaker 2: in some manner. The Siri people who've mentioned before in

212
00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,199
Speaker 2: these episodes used Helo monster tails to treat psychosomatic illnesses

213
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 2: and would place Helo monster skin on the head to

214
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,880
Speaker 2: treat headaches. And then there are Navajo traditions of the

215
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,240
Speaker 2: Helo monster as a healer or tied to this idea

216
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,480
Speaker 2: of old man Helo monster the great healer. And this

217
00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,440
Speaker 2: seems to connect in large part to comparisons to be

218
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,240
Speaker 2: made with the sort of between the sort of trembling

219
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,960
Speaker 2: nature of a helo monster's gait or observations that a

220
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,439
Speaker 2: helo monsters kind of trembling, and the so called hand

221
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,560
Speaker 2: trembling practices of traditional healers in Navajo culture. So there's

222
00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 2: a lot to this, but hand trembling is part of

223
00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,280
Speaker 2: a traditional diagnostic ritual practice among the Navajo, where by

224
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,440
Speaker 2: the healer, in the midst of a ritual that has

225
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,200
Speaker 2: other major components, holds a hand over the body of

226
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 2: a sick person and the trembling of the hand reveals

227
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,880
Speaker 2: where in the body the sickness is centered. And then

228
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 2: the person once they've determined where the sickness is located,

229
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 2: then they're referred out to an herbalist or more a

230
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 2: singer for proper treatment of that condition. And so again

231
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,680
Speaker 2: there's mythic connection, let's see. Additionally, Beck mentions that early

232
00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,600
Speaker 2: settlers in Mexico claimed that the Mexican beaded lizard's tail

233
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 2: was an aphrodisiac. This, of course is often the case

234
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,400
Speaker 2: with different animal parts and cultures around the world. Oftentimes

235
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,520
Speaker 2: there's generally nothing to it. It's just it's tied up

236
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 2: in ideas right of and certainly imagine benefits and then

237
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,040
Speaker 2: he points out that during the eighteen nineties, different doctors,

238
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,720
Speaker 2: you know, colonial doctors Westerners, started experimenting with HeLa monster venom,

239
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 2: and he profiles one in particular that was somewhat amusing

240
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,520
Speaker 2: and frightening depending on how you look at it, and

241
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 2: that is one R. Boocock, who experimented with giving small

242
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 2: doses or provings to patients and apparently did a lot

243
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 2: of experiments on himself. And I just want to read

244
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,040
Speaker 2: a fragment here from Beck's book, because he summarizes it

245
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,040
Speaker 2: rather amusingly quote using only himself as a subject. Boocock

246
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,080
Speaker 2: published a painfully detailed, if not well replicated, set of

247
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 2: trials describing how small dosages of heloderma venom taken with

248
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 2: quote sugar of milk, produced a number of symptoms. These

249
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,760
Speaker 2: symptoms ranged from lethargy, headaches, dizziness, and running nose, to

250
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 2: erection and enhanced sexual performance. The most striking system noted

251
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 2: by Boocock was quote uninternal coldness from my heart, as

252
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 2: if I was being frozen to death internally and I

253
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,600
Speaker 2: had no way of warming myself.

254
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we talked last time about or in the

255
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,880
Speaker 1: first episode, about one of the effects of helo monster

256
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,480
Speaker 1: venom being being hypothermia.

257
00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so you know it sounds like I don't

258
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 2: know this is this is touching on a number of

259
00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,960
Speaker 2: the problems with understanding the helo monster's venom that we

260
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 2: discussed already, you know, like what is the dositure that

261
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 2: is being administered and then you know, how does it

262
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,560
Speaker 2: feel in one body versus another? But yeah, it does

263
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 2: seem like he is, at least at least in that case,

264
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 2: he's tapping into the real power of the venom. And

265
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 2: then anyway, back continues and says Boucock used the remedy

266
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 2: on a number of his patients, claiming to have successfully

267
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 2: treated a quote patient with a staggering gait and another

268
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,880
Speaker 2: with skin infections and swollen legs who was near death.

269
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 1: Okay, I got my doubts.

270
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: So Bookock is just dosing himself daily with tiny heat

271
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 2: monster potions and then taking stock of what his body

272
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 2: is doing. And you know, maybe in some cases it's

273
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 2: less it's less what the the it's less helo monster

274
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 2: related and just something else going on in his body.

275
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,200
Speaker 2: Other times, I think maybe a stronger case to be made,

276
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,840
Speaker 2: like oh yeah, maybe you took a little too much

277
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 2: or enough. That's the thing that's kind of the always

278
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 2: been the balance with various naturally occurring properties from other organisms. Right,

279
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: if it's it's a chemical weapon in a plant or

280
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 2: an animal, we're trying to use it for a different source.

281
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,439
Speaker 2: We don't actually want our heart to blow up, but

282
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,760
Speaker 2: we want to feel it enough that we wake up

283
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 2: in the morning, right, that sort of thing. So he

284
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 2: notes here that other doctors look for ways that heloder

285
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 2: dermo venom might be used to treat paralysis and neurological problems,

286
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 2: including some tied to late stage syphilis. He says that

287
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 2: during the First World War, the Germans actually had HeLa

288
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: monsters harvested and shipped over for possible use in the

289
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 2: treatment of different degenerative diseases of the nervous system. I'm

290
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 2: not sure how. I'm assuming they didn't travel in comfort.

291
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 2: I'm imagining that these were dead bodies, but I'm not

292
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,680
Speaker 2: sure on the details there. But generally, once we get

293
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,680
Speaker 2: into the twentieth century, he points out that scientific inquiry

294
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 2: becomes a lot more rigorous. Though heloderma venom was still

295
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 2: used in some homeopathic practices and still was as of

296
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,760
Speaker 2: this book's writing, Beck rides quote. Because homeopathic remedies are

297
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 2: often given at doses below levels that might be expected

298
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 2: to have significant physiological effects. The mechanism of homeopathic cures

299
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 2: beyond the placebo effect has so far eluded science.

300
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,920
Speaker 1: I'll go on the record and say that I don't

301
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 1: think homeopathic medicines have an effect other than the placebo effect,

302
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: because they are based on this dilution concept, the idea

303
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: that you can dilute the active ingredient to levels where

304
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 1: it basically no longer exists and it's still supposed to

305
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: have some effect.

306
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like this kind of reminds me a lot of

307
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,119
Speaker 2: the discussions around micro doosing in our culture today. Like

308
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,879
Speaker 2: if you take such a small dosage of something that

309
00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,920
Speaker 2: at a larger dosage has a more pronounced and or

310
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 2: meaningful effect, what happens if you take it at a

311
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 2: very small dose and it's maybe not even perceivable, Like

312
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: is it doing anything or is it just the idea

313
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 2: of it? Is it again just placebo effect and the

314
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 2: idea of it doing something in you?

315
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,479
Speaker 1: Yeah?

316
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 2: So yeah, So you know, going back to Bukock, micro

317
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 2: dosing HeLa monster venom, and a case could be made

318
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 2: that maybe that's the case with these homeopathic practices as well.

319
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 2: But any rate, by the time we get to the

320
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, that's when the peptide breakthroughs really really come

321
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 2: into play regarding he monster venom.

322
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,520
Speaker 1: I would say, especially in the early nineteen nineties, that's

323
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: when we really start to see the relevance of I mean,

324
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: this is not the only potentially medically interesting component of

325
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 1: helo monster venom, because, as we talked about, helo monster

326
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: venom is a very complex cocktail with tons of different

327
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: toxins in it that do different things. But the main

328
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: and most interesting element of helo monster venom is, at

329
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 1: least in a medical sense, is one that is known

330
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: as exendin four. So the extending four peptide found in

331
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: helo monsters is in fact very similar to a hormone

332
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,960
Speaker 1: that occurs naturally in human bodies called GLP one. Listeners

333
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,399
Speaker 1: will probably have heard this phrase a lot lately. This

334
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 1: stands for a glucagon like peptide one. So what does

335
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: does GLP one do, and thus why is the functional

336
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 1: similarity of extendin four to GLP one relevant. I'm going

337
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: to explain that, but to do so, we kind of

338
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: have to take a few steps back and go over

339
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 1: some of the basics of vertebrate metabolism, including the concepts

340
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 1: of glucose and insulin. So starting with glucose. Glucose is

341
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: one of the body's primary sources of energy. So when

342
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 1: you eat carbs eat carbohydrates, your digestive system breaks down

343
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: complex carbohydrates into simple sugars, which enter the blood stream

344
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 1: as glucose. Then also some amino acids from proteins get

345
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 1: converted into glucose by the liver in a process known

346
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 1: as glucooneogenesis, So making glucose out of these other constituents

347
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 1: out of amino acids from proteins. So after a meal,

348
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:00,880
Speaker 1: the amount of glucose in the blood stream goes up.

349
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 1: This is the blood sugar spike, the post prandial blood

350
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: sugar spike from eating. But this glucose is not helpful

351
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: to the body just floating around in your blood. The

352
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: body needs to take some extra steps to make use

353
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 1: of it or store it, and this is where insulin

354
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: comes in. So insulin is a hormone that allows tissues

355
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: such as the muscles to take in glucose from the

356
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 1: blood and do something with it in a commonly used metaphor.

357
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: Insulin chemically opens the gate in muscle cells to allow

358
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 1: glucose to enter and then provide power to the muscles. Meanwhile,

359
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: in the liver, insulin stimulates the organ to convert glucose

360
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: into glycogen, which is a more complex carbohydrate that is

361
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 1: stored in the liver and in the muscles for use

362
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: in the near future. This is something that's you know,

363
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 1: you might need soon, so we're gonna store it in

364
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: this other molecular form it can be used later. And

365
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: also insulin signals to the liver to stop making synthetic

366
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: glucose from other nutrients. It's like we've already got glucose

367
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 1: in the blood liver. You could stop synthesizing glucose. We

368
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,719
Speaker 1: don't need that right now. You can stop turning amino

369
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: acids from protein into glucose. Instead, We're ready to make

370
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: use of the glucose we have from food, so insulin

371
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: to review. It enables the body to do several things.

372
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: Convert glucose into cellular energy to be used immediately, to

373
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: store glucose for use in the medium term by converting

374
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: it into glycogen, or it stimulates the body to convert

375
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 1: glucose into fat for long term energy storage, and then

376
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: insulin can also stimulate the building of proteins to grow muscle,

377
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 1: tissue or repair the body. So insulin gets glucose out

378
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: of the blood stream and puts it to use somewhere

379
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: in the body in various ways. Here's where GLP one

380
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: comes in. When you eat a meal, your body detects

381
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,640
Speaker 1: that food is entering the gut, and the gut reacts

382
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 1: by producing this hormone GLP one. So the GLP one

383
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: in the blood stream in turn triggers the pancreas to

384
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: release more insulin, so it says, hey, you know, blood

385
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: glucose is going to spike. We've got food coming in.

386
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: We need to create insulin. We need to release insulin rather.

387
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: So the idea is when the blood sugar spikes after

388
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: the meal, the glucose can be cleared and put to use.

389
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: GLP one also slows down gastric emptying. This means it

390
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: reduces the speed at which the stomach passes along its

391
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: contents into the small intestine, and the result of this

392
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: is that glucose from the meal just eaten will enter

393
00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: the bloodstream more gradually. GLP one also communicates with the brain,

394
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: stimulating the feeling that we know as satiety or fullness.

395
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: So when you feel full after eating a bunch of food,

396
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: that sensation is not completely but in part due to

397
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: naturally occurring GLP one. That feeling in the brain. I

398
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: am full comes in part from GLP one, but there

399
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 1: are other signals as well. One fact that I really

400
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 1: like like thinking about sometimes is that the body literally

401
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: detects stretching of the stomach via dedicated Mechana receptors. So

402
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: when the stomach is crammed full of food that can

403
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: also make you feel full, you literally feel your stomach stretching.

404
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: But the GLP one contributes as well to the feeling

405
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 1: of fullness. GLP one also signals the liver to stop

406
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: releasing extra glucose into the bloodstream from stored glycogen. So

407
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: in multiple ways, GLP one helps the body deal with

408
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: incoming energy food. It's a regulator hormone. It's kind of

409
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: like a traffic cop for food energy in a way.

410
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: It tries to slow things down and make sure that

411
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: the body can properly use and store the food energy

412
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: entering the system. Now, there are some human diseases that

413
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: affect these metabolic pathways we've just been talking about, most

414
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 1: notably diabetes. Type one diabetes occurs when the body's immune

415
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: system attacks the pancreas, destroying the body's ability to create insulin.

416
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: Type two diabetes happens when the body develops resistance to insulin,

417
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: so that insulin no longer works as well to clear

418
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: glucose from the bloodstream and put it to use in cells.

419
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: And both of these conditions can lead to persistent high

420
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 1: levels of glucose in the blood, which has all kinds

421
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: of negative health consequences over time if that condition is

422
00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: not treated. This brings us back to the HeLa monster.

423
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: So decades ago, researchers were isolating and studying the individual

424
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: toxins and helo monster venom and realized that one particular

425
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: component of the venom or the saliva, a peptide called

426
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: exendin four, was, though structurally pretty different, it was functionally

427
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: very similar to GLP one in the body binding to

428
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: our cells GLP one receptors, except with one very important difference.

429
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 1: While natural GLP one that is made in our bodies

430
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: gets broken down within minutes, exendin four remains active for

431
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: several hours because it is resistant to the enzymes in

432
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: our body that normally break the GLP one hormone apart.

433
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: So because it lasts so much longer in the blood stream,

434
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: xendin four is kind of like super GLP one like

435
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: it behaves like GILP one, but it lasts way way longer.

436
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: When this functionality was discovered, it led researchers to put

437
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: some facts together. So diabetes is characterized by dysfunction in

438
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: how the body makes and responds to insulin. GLP one

439
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 1: stimulates and regulates the body's insulin response. Exendin four behaves

440
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: like GLP one, except with a much longer half life

441
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: in the blood. So could this toxin from heal monster

442
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 1: venom help play a role in treating metabolic disorders like diabetes?

443
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: And the answer turned out to be yes. So this

444
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: line of research gave us initially drugs like eccentotide, which

445
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: is synthetic extend in four, which has been used for

446
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: years now to treat type two diabetes, very effective treatment.

447
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: But it is also what led not directly but conceptually

448
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: to the development of humor and GLP one mimicking drugs

449
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: based on semaglutide, and these would include you've heard the

450
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: common trade names now like ozimpic and wagovi, which are

451
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: used to treat type two diabetes and to promote weight loss, respectively.

452
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: So the research history kind of goes like. The study

453
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: of HeLa monster venom led to the isolation of toxins,

454
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: including exendin four, which led to research discovering the functional

455
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: similarities between exendin four and GLP one, which led to

456
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: development of treatments for diabetes based on the HeLa monster toxin,

457
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: which led to the concept of GLP one mimicking drugs

458
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: to promote general weight loss in humans. Now, there have

459
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 1: been a lot of important scientists involved in these streams

460
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 1: of research over the years, too many dimension here, but

461
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: one of the major figures often singled out in the

462
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: history of this research program is a guy named doctor

463
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: John ng a doctor who worked at the us VA

464
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: Hospital who in the early nineteen nineties was doing research

465
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: on helo monster venom, was isolating toxins from it, trying

466
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: to figure out what they did if they might have

467
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: some medical relevance, and he isolated the toxin extend in

468
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: four and discovered its functional similarity to human GLP one,

469
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: which had already been discovered earlier, I think in the

470
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, so we already knew about GLP one, but

471
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: doctor Ing discovered, Hey, this toxin in helo monster venom,

472
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: it has this functional similarity. And he also discovered its

473
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: most important difference from GLP one, which was again that

474
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: it took much much longer to break down in the body,

475
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: which is useful for multiple reasons. I mean, that is

476
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: directly useful in a way in its function in the body,

477
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: but that also makes it easier to study in the laboratory.

478
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: So it really is amazing to think about how this

479
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: revolution tionary whole new field of metabolic medicine can be

480
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: traced back to research on heal a monster venom. Yeah,

481
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: like this lizard that lives in the desert and has

482
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: an excruciating bite and carries this potent cocktail of venoms.

483
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 1: That isolating the parts of the venom could lead through

484
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: all of these steps to such an amazing, uh you know,

485
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: step change in human medicine.

486
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, this thing that we couldn't even agree agree that

487
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: the creature had for a while and then had all

488
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: these disagreements about what its properties are. Yeah, it turns

489
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 2: out to be a part of you know, one of

490
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: the biggest medicine breakthroughs of the modern era, you know,

491
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: because it's these medicines are everywhere. We have listeners who

492
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: are using these medications, and certainly listeners know people who

493
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: are using these medications in real life and certainly in

494
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: the like the larger media sphere.

495
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

496
00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

497
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean it's like at this point we did not

498
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: have to introduce the idea of brand names like Ozebic

499
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: and Wagovi. Everybody listening has already heard of these at

500
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: this point.

501
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

502
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, But anyway, I wanted to come back to another

503
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: interesting question. So we know the usefulness of extending for

504
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: in creating drugs to treat diabetes, and then also in

505
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: inspiring these subsequent research programs that lead to weight loss drugs,

506
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: But what does it do for the HeLa monster? As

507
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: far as I can tell, the answer is, we don't

508
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: know for sure exactly what it does for the HeLa monster.

509
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: We have some ideas, there are a number of ideas

510
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: that researchers have been kicking around to answer this question

511
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: for decades now, but we don't fully know exactly what

512
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: it's primary role for the HeLa monster is. I'm happy

513
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: to be corrected on this, by the way, if you're

514
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: a heel a Monster researcher out there and you have

515
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: more confidence in the research than I do. But I've

516
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: been reading around and I think it's still somewhat unsettled.

517
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: The ideas about what it might do fall into two

518
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: major categories. One category is effects on the bite victim.

519
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: So extending for could play a role strictly as a toxin.

520
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: Like the other toxins in the hel monster's venom, which

521
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: have a range of effects, they're designed to cause extreme

522
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: pain or around where the bite is, to lead to

523
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: these drops in blood pressure to you know, generally have

524
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: effects that are supposed to drive an attacking animal away,

525
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: to make it desist from trying to eat the heal

526
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: a monster.

527
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as we've discussed chemical weapons like this that

528
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: the animals or plants use, there are death ways that

529
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: we can adjust the dosages or in this case, you know,

530
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 2: manipulate them in other ways to hone in on the

531
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: things we like about those weapons and make them work

532
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: for us. Yeah.

533
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this would be an effect on an attacking

534
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: animal or potentially on a prey animal. Though, as we

535
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: talked about last time, a lot of helo monster research

536
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: has sort of deemphasized the role of venom in subduing prey,

537
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: especially because helo monsters don't really they don't usually attack

538
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: large prey that needs to be subdued by venom. They

539
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: tend to eat small, helpless prey in nests.

540
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 2: Like you can't fight back now, baby rabbits or egg

541
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: because I have poisoned you.

542
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's one stream of hypotheses. It might have

543
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: some effect on the thing that gets bitten, But the

544
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: other tying of this fork is effects on the HeLa

545
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: monster itself. And while most of the stuff in the

546
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: venom is designed to work on the creature that gets bitten,

547
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: it is true that in plenty of creatures there are

548
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: things in the saliva that do something for the creature itself.

549
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: So it could be an internal regulatory peptide that is

550
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: meant to have effects on the HeLa monster's own digestion

551
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: and metabolism. On that second idea that extended for does

552
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 1: something for the HeLa monster itself. The research picture here

553
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: also seems mixed to me, but one publication I found

554
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: somewhat supporting this idea is a letter published in the

555
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: journal Diabetes obesity and metabolism, and this was by Galina Graham,

556
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 1: Chris McLaughlin and Peter Flatt called Roll of Extending for

557
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: in the HeLa Monster Further Lessons regarding human oral glucagon

558
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 1: like peptide one for Therapy, and this was published in

559
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: the year twenty twenty. So the authors point out that

560
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: despite the importance of Helo monster venom in the last

561
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: thirty years of advancements in the treatment of diabetes quote,

562
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: we have not fully appreciated the contribution of the Helo

563
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: monster and address the obvious question of why such a

564
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: metabolically active peptide is present in its saliva. They point

565
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: out that it's not unusual for a self effective regulatory

566
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: peptide to be found in the saliva of an animal.

567
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: They say humans have regulatory peptides in our own saliva,

568
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: but in low concentrations. They say, the relative concentration of

569
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: extending four in Helo monster saliva is huge, and they

570
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: reason that there would not be this much of an

571
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: active peptide in the saliva by chance. It has to

572
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: serve some kind of biological purpose, and they write, quote interestingly,

573
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: this is not the creature's own form of GLP one.

574
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: Extending four is not the Helo monster's own GLP one quote,

575
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: which can be found in its intestinal l cells, with

576
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: a structure very similar to mammalian GLP one, including susceptibility

577
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: to degradation by DPP four. This is the common This

578
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: is the agent in the body that typically breaks down

579
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: GLP one quickly, the thing that extending four is more

580
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 1: resistant to. This is why it can last so much

581
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: longer in the blood. So they ask does extending for

582
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: play a role in immobilization of the Helo monster's prey.

583
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: The thinking would go that helo monster bites a small

584
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: mammal and then quote as a result of insulinotropic action

585
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: action promoting the flooding of the blood with insulin, it

586
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: induces hypoglycemia and allows the prey to be overcome and devoured.

587
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: They say, no, this is very unlikely because you would

588
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: need a very high dose to do this. They say,

589
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 1: the insulin stimulating effect of extending for, just like the

590
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: insulin stimulating effect of GLP one, is dependent on the

591
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: presence of glucose in the blood. Fortunately, it does like

592
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: GLP one, doesn't overstimulate insulin when there's no blood glucose

593
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 1: to process. There's kind of a natural safety valve there.

594
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 1: There's got to be glucose there for it to work.

595
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: And then the third thing they say is this, if

596
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: it were supposed to function this way, like inducing hypoglycemia

597
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: in the bite victim, this would take some time, they say, Quote,

598
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: some considerable time would be required to incapacitate the prey.

599
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: But this is in fact mediated very rapidly by toxins

600
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: targeting the nervous and cardiovascular systems. So I can imagine,

601
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: of course, this time objection would be true whether you're

602
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: talking about having an effect on prey though they eat

603
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 1: their prey very quickly, but also whether you're talking about

604
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 1: having an effect on a larger bite victim, because you know, like,

605
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: how long is this encounter between the attacker and the

606
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: helo monster supposed to last? Like the helo monster does

607
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: have to clamp on and choose venom in, but it

608
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 1: still doesn't want to be hanging out around this attacking

609
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,320
Speaker 1: animal for a long time.

610
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, yeah, it would be an expensive thing to

611
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: include in the venom if it's ultimately not playing a

612
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: role in the immediate takedown of the prey.

613
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, unlikely to be effective by causing hypoglycemia in the

614
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:27,959
Speaker 1: bite victim within a relevant amount of time, so they say,

615
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: quote in view of the above, we should consider an

616
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: alternative possibility based on the fact that the heel Monster

617
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: produces copious amounts of saliva when eating meals, which can

618
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,439
Speaker 1: be up to one third of its own body weight.

619
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,879
Speaker 1: This connects to something we talked about in part one

620
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: of this series that the heel Monster is going to

621
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: be living a feast or famine kind of lifestyle. It's

622
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: not getting regular small meals throughout the day, throughout the

623
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: whole year. Instead, it is going long, long periods of

624
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 1: time probably eat nothing at all, and then getting suddenly

625
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: huge meals at very infrequent times.

626
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the estimates that we discussed before was

627
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: as few as maybe five times a year as the

628
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: heat Monster actually eating, and those are not going to

629
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: be evenly spread out right.

630
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: So an animal that only eats several relatively gigantic meals

631
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: influxes of food energy per year and the rest of

632
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: the time needs to carefully manage its reserves of stored

633
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: energy from food. That seems like an ideal candidate for

634
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: an animal that would benefit from a kind of super

635
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: GLP one A super version of this peptide that acts

636
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: like the metabolic traffic cop to help slow things down,

637
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: make sure everything gets where it needs to go, that

638
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: it's used efficiently, gets stored if it needs to get stored,

639
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: gets used if it needs to get used, and so anyway,

640
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: the authors continue. They say, quote, the saliva containing extended

641
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: four would pass into the alimentary tract, enabling the peptide

642
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: to be absorbed across the mucosa, passing into the circulation

643
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: to powerfully potentiate meal induced insulin secretion and other extra

644
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: pancreatic actions through the activation of both insulin and GLP

645
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 1: one rs. Such a mechanism would significantly augment the actions

646
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: of the creature's own enteroinsular pathway and enhance its ability

647
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: to store nutrient excess, again making good use of the

648
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: food that it takes in storing efficiently what needs to

649
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: be stored for later, They say quote. However, this scenario

650
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: would require extendin for to escape digestion in the gastrointestinal

651
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: tract pass into the blood in amount sufficient to stimulate

652
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: glucose dependent insulin release and trigger a powerful anabolic response,

653
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: so the authors decided to experiment. They explained that they

654
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: that experimenting with heela monsters would be very difficult, so

655
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: they're doing some preliminary research here. They first tried this

656
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: with mice to see what would happen if you administer

657
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: oral extend in four along with a glucose meal to

658
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: mice non diabetic mice that had been fasting fasted mice.

659
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: They say, does this extend and four have any anything

660
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: like the effect they hypothesize that it might have with

661
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: the lizards. They found somewhat surprisingly, yes, it required a

662
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: high dose, but oral extended four did stimulate insulin release

663
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: and it did moderate the expected blood sugar spike from

664
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 1: the glucose. Now, they say that they did not have

665
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: a chance to monitor circulating extend in four in the

666
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: blood of the mice because the amount of blood was limited,

667
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: But they they point to another study actually in heal monsters,

668
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: saying quote, one remarkable study has demonstrated that circulating extend

669
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: and four levels measured by immunoinsymmetric assay increased rapidly by

670
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: more than one hundredfold when the helo monster devoured small rats.

671
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: So this study found helo monsters they eat little rats,

672
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: and then if you check out their blood. They have

673
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: a lot of extend and for circulating in their own blood,

674
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: So that's sort of a clue that it may be

675
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 1: going from the venom down with the meal into the

676
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: lizard'szone digestive system and then not just being digested, but

677
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: being absorbed into the bloodstream and affecting the lizard's oone metabolism.

678
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: So these authors argue that apart from the possible effects

679
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: on the bite victim, there's good reason for thinking that

680
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: the extend and four in helo monster saliva plays a

681
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: role in preparing the lizard's body to handle this huge

682
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: incoming meal, especially given this feast or famine lifestyle. However,

683
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: I did find some stuff that made it look like

684
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe the research picture is more complicated

685
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: because I found an older study, for example, from the

686
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: year two thousand and seven in the Journal of Comparative

687
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: Physiology by Carolyn Crystal and Dale DeNardo called absence of

688
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: extend and four effects on post prandial meaning after a

689
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: meal glucose and lipids in the heel monster Heloderma suspectum. Again,

690
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: this was the year two thousand and seven. They did

691
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 1: some experiments and they write quote our results demonstrate that

692
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: plasma nutrient levels in helo monsters respond relatively slowly to feeding,

693
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,439
Speaker 1: and that extend in four does not have the same

694
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: effect on circulating glucose in helo monsters as it does

695
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: in mammals. Now, they do not rule out that extended

696
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: for plays some kind of role. They say there could

697
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: be an alternate role in regulating energy metabolism within the

698
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: lizards themselves. They say, quote such as nutrient uptake rate

699
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: in the small intestine. But they did not find that

700
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: the extended for levels in the heel monsters blood mitigated

701
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: like the blood sugar spike that you would see after

702
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: a meal. It didn't mitigate the blood sugar spike or

703
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 1: a triglyceride levels which did still increase in the blood

704
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: after the heel monster had a meal in their experiments.

705
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: But they say, you know, further experiments could show that

706
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: maybe it still plays a role in helo monster metabolism somehow.

707
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: So from what I can tell, there's still a somewhat

708
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 1: mixed picture on the research here, and we don't fully

709
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,319
Speaker 1: understand exactly what the extending for is primarily supposed to

710
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: be doing in the lizard saliva. But there is a

711
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: good reason for thinking it's doing something metabolically for the

712
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: lizard itself, even though there are clearly complications to exactly

713
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: what that mechanism would be.

714
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that hypothesis is the one that I mentioned this

715
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: in the first episode that I went to the Denver

716
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: Museum of Nature and Science several week back, which again

717
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: is tremendous world class museum, Highly recommend it. But they

718
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: had a wonderful volunteer let exhibit titled Nature's Medicine Cabinet

719
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 2: about some of these topics we're discussing in this episode. Yeah,

720
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 2: and they lean towards some version of this metabolic explanation

721
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: for the substance's presence in the saliva, in the toxin

722
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 2: in the venom of the HeLa monster.

723
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: Another really interesting thing that maybe we could explore on

724
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: the show someday is that, you know, GLP one and

725
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: related metabolic peptides are weird. They appear to have this

726
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: complex cascade of effects within the body. Just one example

727
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 1: people may have come across before is that apparently GLP ones,

728
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: while they're originally meant these GLP one drugs sorry, well,

729
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 1: they're originally meant to treat diabetes and obesity, they appear

730
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: to have effects in controlling certain behaviors, like they have

731
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: been linked to greater ability to control compulsive gambling behaviors

732
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 1: and other things like this. So it seems like it's

733
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 1: more than just metabolism. It's not just insulin. It's also

734
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: doing things to our brains and having cognitive and behavioral effects.

735
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: Wow, that's crazy.

736
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: The general weirdness and kind of multi potency of this

737
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: whole class of medications is something that is fascinating and

738
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: I think, I don't know, might be worth coming back

739
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: and talking about again on the show sometime.

740
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, So yeah, I want to stress again that, yeah,

741
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 2: these medications seem to be doing doing a lot of

742
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: good for a lot of people out there. But if

743
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 2: you have any any idea in your head right now,

744
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 2: well maybe I should find a helo monster. First of all,

745
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 2: do not, as we've been saying, leave the helo monsters alone.

746
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: They're doing their thing. They are not a danger to you.

747
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,720
Speaker 2: If you go looking for them, that's where the danger

748
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 2: becomes apparent. And they're generally protected in the ranges that

749
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: they call home. Leave the Helo monsters alone. And yeah,

750
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: and you do know.

751
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 1: Not worth it to milk a helo monster's venom glands

752
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: to try to make some homemade agoviy or something, and

753
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't work anyway. It's a different that's based on

754
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 1: it's not the same thing, and it's not worth it.

755
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 2: Just don't just do not do it. Yeah, yeah, and

756
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 2: you don't want to risk being bitten by a helo monster.

757
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 2: As we've mentioned, this can be fatal. The one exception

758
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to make is if you have access to

759
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: a Brundle telepod, or technically you need two of these,

760
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 2: You need two Brundle telepods, and you would like to

761
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 2: merge your genes with that the helo monster to gain

762
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: these benefits. You absolutely can. However, I do want to

763
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: warn you that there are there are a number of

764
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 2: possible side effects to merging your DNA with a helo

765
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: monster via a pair of Brundle telepods. These side effects

766
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 2: include lizard dreams, egg cravings, bloat, tail repneck sand lung,

767
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 2: ear loss, and of course of course burrow. But yeah, so,

768
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: but if you have the technology, and only if you

769
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 2: have the technology, you can pursue this avenue of treatment.

770
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: All right, Does that do it for helo monsters?

771
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 2: For now I think so. Yeah, fascinating organisms and it's

772
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: just yeah, it's it's amazing how how important the learnings

773
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 2: the lizard wisdom that we have drawn from them has

774
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: actually become in modern medicine.

775
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: Can you imagine this, This wasteful research on heelo monster venom?

776
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: Why would anybody need to do that?

777
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is a a great example of that.

778
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 2: You know, people, they're always studies out there, like why

779
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: aren't we studying this? Why aren't we studying that? And yeah,

780
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 2: this is a This is a great example of the

781
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 2: sort of thing that can come out of attempting to

782
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: fully understand what's going on inside of another animal's physiology.

783
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: You could find this key, and this key that could

784
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: be very useful when it's been adapted for use in

785
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 2: the human body.

786
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know what keys lie in nature until

787
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: we look. Yeah, try and figure it out.

788
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you've got to try all the doors.

789
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 2: It's like Zelda or something, right, Yeah, all right, or

790
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 2: maybe it's like Silent Hill. Some of those doors just

791
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: don't know, they just they're just there for decoration. Yeah,

792
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: we're going to go and close it out here, though,

793
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 2: But again, we'd love to hear from everyone out there.

794
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: Certainly if you have field experiences observing healo monsters, if

795
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 2: you have you know, observed them at zoos and you

796
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: have some thoughts, or you're just helo monster fans, if

797
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 2: you have sports mascot reports to me, do so. I

798
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: want to hear about all your local sports teams that

799
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: have helo monsters as mascots. What did the mascots get

800
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 2: up to on the iconography for the team, or is

801
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 2: there a costumed helo monster that's out there on the

802
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 2: ball field running around with antics. Let us know about

803
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 2: that and anything we talked about in this episode as well.

804
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 2: It's all fair game. I just want to remind everyone

805
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: out there that's stuff to blow your mind. Is, of

806
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 2: course a science and culture podcast with core episodes on

807
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 2: Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays,

808
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: we do Weird House Cinema. That's when we set aside

809
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about a strange film.

810
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: Let's see what else to mention. Yeah, we appreciate anybody

811
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: out there who takes time out of their day to

812
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: listen to the show and or watch the show if

813
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 2: you want the audio version. You can get us wherever

814
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 2: you get your audio podcast. If you want the video

815
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: version of our show, the audio video version, go to

816
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 2: Netflix look up Stuff to Blow your Mind. You'll find

817
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,000
Speaker 2: us there. You can rate us on this platform, give

818
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 2: us a couple of thumbs up and ask to be

819
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: reminded about future episodes. And if you get us anywhere

820
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: else in audio format, just rate, review, subscribe. All of

821
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 2: these things really help us out. On top of that,

822
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, find us on social media. We

823
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 2: are on Instagram, and also if you want to want

824
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,560
Speaker 2: to join the discord server, email us and we'll send

825
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 2: to the link for that. It's a much smaller audience,

826
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 2: you know, a little more, you know, close knit, but

827
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 2: it's a fun community if you want to be a

828
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 2: part of it.

829
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Jjposway.

830
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

831
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

832
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

833
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

834
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is

835
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,919
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts my Heart Radio, visit

836
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to

837
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.