WEBVTT - What's the Story Behind Dogs Playing Poker?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope

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<v Speaker 1>and iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Guess what will What's that Mango?

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<v Speaker 1>So you know that painting of dogs playing poker, like

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<v Speaker 1>the ones where dogs are drinking and playing cards.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's funny. I was at a thrift store

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<v Speaker 2>the other day with my son William, and I actually

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<v Speaker 2>think I saw a puzzle of that painting right there

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<v Speaker 2>in the store, so I should have bought it for.

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<v Speaker 1>This that's amazing. So I don't know if I told

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<v Speaker 1>you this, but like when I was in high school,

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<v Speaker 1>my dad saw that painting for the first time, and

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<v Speaker 1>he was so delighted by it, and he couldn't stop

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<v Speaker 1>talking about it. He was like, can you believe that

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<v Speaker 1>a bulldog is cheating? It's so ridiculous, it's crazy. He

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<v Speaker 1>just kept talking about it for a few weeks. And

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<v Speaker 1>then one day I came home and I looked above

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<v Speaker 1>my dog Lupinese dogbed, and he had framed a print

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<v Speaker 1>of it and put it above her cage because he

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<v Speaker 1>won make sure she had some art in the house too.

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<v Speaker 2>Just so ludicrous. Yeah, it's so sweet though, too. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>your family's always been pretty dog obsessed.

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<v Speaker 1>Though, right, Yeah, I mean, we always used to joke

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<v Speaker 1>that I would have to put a jacket on when

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<v Speaker 1>I entered the house because my dog was super fluffy,

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<v Speaker 1>and my parents kept the house super cold so that

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<v Speaker 1>she was comfortable. Like it didn't matter if my sister

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<v Speaker 1>and I were comfortable, but as long as my dog

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<v Speaker 1>was comfortable, everything was okay. But thinking about that artwork

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<v Speaker 1>over my dog's cage and the fact that apparently it

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<v Speaker 1>sold at auction in twenty fifteen for seven hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars or close to seven hundred thousand dollars like learning,

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<v Speaker 1>that made me want to look into the origins of

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<v Speaker 1>the painting war and learn more about the artists. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's what we're doing this week, talking about dogs playing poker.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's dive in. Hey their podcast listeners, Welcome to Part

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<v Speaker 2>Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and is always I'm joined

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<v Speaker 2>by my good friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and sitting behind

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<v Speaker 2>that studio booth, I was looking forward to this one

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<v Speaker 2>that day. I couldn't wait to see what Dylan would

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<v Speaker 2>be doing. And he is not disappointing. He is dancing

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<v Speaker 2>like I have never seen him dance before, and he's

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<v Speaker 2>blasting the song poker Face. I have to admit I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of called this. He is a huge Lady Gaga fan.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's our palain producer, Dylan Fagan.

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<v Speaker 1>I think he said he wanted to play that song

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<v Speaker 1>on repeat to inspire us, But I'm pretty sure the

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<v Speaker 1>disco ball and the strobe light are more for him

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<v Speaker 1>than for us.

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<v Speaker 2>There is no question about that, all right, mego, So,

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<v Speaker 2>I know we're both dog lovers, and we both like art,

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<v Speaker 2>and so I guess this episode is sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>Venn diagram of those interests. So let's talk dogs playing

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<v Speaker 2>poker absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>So. The first thing I wanted to bring up is

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<v Speaker 1>that when you hear that phrase dogs playing poker, we

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<v Speaker 1>probably pictured the same thing, right, like that picture of

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<v Speaker 1>a bunch of dogs at a poker table, this bulldog

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<v Speaker 1>cheating by handing an ace under the table to his pal,

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<v Speaker 1>another bulldog. But dogs playing Poker isn't actually one painting.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of the shorthand that's applied to a group

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<v Speaker 1>of eighteen paintings, all by a New York artist named

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<v Speaker 1>Cassius Marcellus Coolidge or Cash Coolidge, and the painting that

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<v Speaker 1>we're most familiar with, though one with that cheating dog

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<v Speaker 1>is called a Friend in Need, but the one that

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<v Speaker 1>kicked off the whole series is actually called Poker Game.

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<v Speaker 1>It depicts four large, brown and white dogs sitting around

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<v Speaker 1>a poker table and one is smoking a cigar, one

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<v Speaker 1>has a pipe, one has a cigarette, and they've all

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<v Speaker 1>got a bottle of whiskey between them.

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<v Speaker 2>Which that last part that's why you know it's ridiculous

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<v Speaker 2>because most dogs, I'm pretty sure jen drinkers.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, Poker Game was really well received at the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Some cigar companies reproduced it to decorate their cigar boxes,

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<v Speaker 1>but this led to even more dog paintings being commissioned.

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<v Speaker 1>So in nineteen oh three, the publishing company Brown and

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<v Speaker 1>Bigelow from Minnesota actually paid Coolidge to paint sixteen more

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<v Speaker 1>dog paintings.

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<v Speaker 2>So, like, why did they need so many paintings of dogs?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good question, But basically they wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>slap them on like calendars or ads or posters that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of thing. And Coolidge's dogs, it turns out, were

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<v Speaker 1>pretty versatile. Like they weren't just hanging out drinking whiskey

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<v Speaker 1>and playing cards. Sometimes they were playing baseball, or football

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<v Speaker 1>or fixing a car. One painting is even of a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of dogs in the courtroom pleading a case.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess my next question is what drove Cash

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<v Speaker 2>Coolidge to paint all those dogs doing human stuff?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously, in the case of the sixteen paintings,

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<v Speaker 1>it was the money and the commissioning. But ah, the

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<v Speaker 1>first one, Poker Game, he just painted that on his own,

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<v Speaker 1>and I didn't realize how long ago he started this series.

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<v Speaker 1>Poker Game was created in eighteen ninety four. While it's

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<v Speaker 1>unknown where he got the idea, it's not just like

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<v Speaker 1>thrown together haphazardly. The image is a composition that's inspired

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<v Speaker 1>by Caravaggio, George de Latour, and Paul Saisan, all who

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<v Speaker 1>have their own depictions of card game scenes, albeit with

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<v Speaker 1>you know, humans of their subjects rather than dogs. But

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<v Speaker 1>some have compared Coolidge's A Friend in Need with this

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<v Speaker 1>English artist Sir Edwin Lancier's painting. He did one called

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<v Speaker 1>Laying Down the Law in eighteen forty, and both works

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<v Speaker 1>feature dogs gathered around pensively, kind of acting like people,

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<v Speaker 1>card players in Coolidge's one, and lawyers and lanciers. However,

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<v Speaker 1>if you look at Coolidge's painting. It's kind of lighter

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<v Speaker 1>in tone, slightly more comical. And actually, I'm just going

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<v Speaker 1>to send you these images so you can see the difference.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I mean, I see what you're saying

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<v Speaker 2>that Coolidges is slightly more comical. But I mean they're

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<v Speaker 2>both kind of silly paintings of dogs doing human stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean that it's true for sure, But now,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's what's happening. Yeah. You know, while Coolidge

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't the first to do this type of work, he's

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<v Speaker 1>definitely the most prolific, and he kind of took the

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<v Speaker 1>idea and ran with it in a way that no

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<v Speaker 1>one else had.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we need to back up, though, because

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<v Speaker 2>you know, there must be something interesting about the upbringing

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<v Speaker 2>of someone who eventually spends a lifetime painting dogs. So

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<v Speaker 2>let's look into his background.

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<v Speaker 1>That sounds great. So Cash Coolidge was born September eighteenth,

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<v Speaker 1>eighteen forty four to a prosperous Quaker family in Antwerp,

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<v Speaker 1>New York. The family had a lot of land, they

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<v Speaker 1>were into farming, and so he grows up really well educated.

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<v Speaker 1>But he's not just a painter. Before he painted dogs,

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<v Speaker 1>he'd already done all these other things. In eighteen seventy one,

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<v Speaker 1>he founded the first bank in Antwerp. He opened and

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<v Speaker 1>then sold several pharmacies in upstate New York. He also

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<v Speaker 1>founded his hometown's first newspaper, the Antwerp News. So he's

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<v Speaker 1>really got a lot on his resume.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, the guy is prettyccomplished. I didn't see the

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<v Speaker 2>bank thing coming, like, that's just such an interesting background.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, finance is really where the dog inspiration comes from.

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<v Speaker 1>But in eighteen seventy three, Coolidge went to Europe and

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<v Speaker 1>that's kind of what kicked off his career as a

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<v Speaker 1>travel writer but also as an artist. He had a

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<v Speaker 1>travel column at the time for the Watertown Times called

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<v Speaker 1>Cash's Column two k's weirdly in the alliteration there. But

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<v Speaker 1>to supplement his income, he also worked as a cartoonist

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<v Speaker 1>for local newspapers, and he also gave penmanship lessons. But

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<v Speaker 1>he had this growing side hustle as a lightning sketcher.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is the thing they used to do where

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<v Speaker 1>people paid up to fifty cents for the privilege of

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<v Speaker 1>watching an artist do these super speed sketches of a

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<v Speaker 1>series of people sitting for portraits.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it sounds a little bit like those quick

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<v Speaker 2>caricatures you can see and get when you're on a

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<v Speaker 2>boardwalk or something like that, where they give you a

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<v Speaker 2>huge head and you're on a skateboard for some reason.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's always a skateboard. But one Rochester news paper

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<v Speaker 1>from the time actually wrote about this incredible event that

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<v Speaker 1>took place at a local Masonic lodge.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you say Masonic lodge?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So we're going to get into that later. But

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<v Speaker 1>the paper said, the celebrated artist CM Coolidge, known to

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<v Speaker 1>the public under the nom de plume Cash, will give

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<v Speaker 1>an entertainment in offhand caricaturing, in which branch of art

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<v Speaker 1>he has no superior. We have had the personal pleasure

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<v Speaker 1>of witnessing mister Coolidge as skilled in this line, and

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<v Speaker 1>can most heartily recommend him to the public.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it sounds like he was pretty successful. He's

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<v Speaker 2>probably the best big head on a skateboard artist around.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and this is even before his dog paintings. So

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<v Speaker 1>Coolidge had a pretty good career as an artist, doing

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<v Speaker 1>illustrations for newspapers and magazines. He was also doing things

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<v Speaker 1>like ads for shoe companies. He was making good money,

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<v Speaker 1>but none of his other work really sticks in the

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<v Speaker 1>American psyche the way those dogs sitting around smoking and

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<v Speaker 1>drinking and playing cards do.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, there's something very funny about the paintings,

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<v Speaker 2>but there's also something a little bit dark about them,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it looks like the are getting away with something

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<v Speaker 2>each time, like they snuck out of their little dog

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<v Speaker 2>houses in the middle of the night to blow off

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<v Speaker 2>some steam without the supervision of their owners. Like you

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<v Speaker 2>get what I'm saying here, I do.

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<v Speaker 1>And the fact that the dogs are gambling is very illicit,

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<v Speaker 1>especially for dogs.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, that's definitely controversial for dogs and for humans too.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, at the time, gambling was actually illegal

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<v Speaker 2>or technically illegal, And according to Lucy Sante's Low Life,

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<v Speaker 2>an amazing book about New York's Lower East Side, in

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<v Speaker 2>the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, tammany hallback

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<v Speaker 2>syndicates quote handled protection for gambling establishments, so that meant

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<v Speaker 2>the highest ranked city officials in New York City were

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<v Speaker 2>facilitating these illegal gambling halls. This included Mayor Robert Van Wick,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was obviously controversial because at the same time,

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<v Speaker 2>people like the city's DA that was a man named

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<v Speaker 2>William Travers. Jerome had made it his personal mission to

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<v Speaker 2>end gambling the city.

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<v Speaker 1>Which sounds like a huge conflict. So does that play

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<v Speaker 1>out publicly at all?

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<v Speaker 2>It definitely does. So you've got Jerome. He starts staging

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<v Speaker 2>raids on these gambling houses and making sure that he

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<v Speaker 2>gets as much publicity as possible by inviting reporters to

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<v Speaker 2>come along. Also, to make the whole thing extra dramatic,

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<v Speaker 2>he personally wields a hatchet to break down doors. So

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<v Speaker 2>pretty dramatic. That sounds ridiculous, Yeah, but it was all

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<v Speaker 2>over the papers and really in the zeitgeist at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Like this guy named al Adams. He was a widely

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<v Speaker 2>disliked policy king. He owned two breweries, one hundred saloons,

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<v Speaker 2>and two million dollars in real estate, and allegedly had

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<v Speaker 2>a steak in every gambling house between Battery and one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and tenth Street. So he was eventually arrested. He

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<v Speaker 2>was sentenced to eighteen months in sing sing. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you're an adult in New York at the time, you're

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<v Speaker 2>probably reading about these gambling raids every day in the newspaper.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of like the backdrop of everybody's life at

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<v Speaker 2>the time. But also, if you're a man, you're probably

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<v Speaker 2>even attending some of these underground card games, and so

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<v Speaker 2>Coolidge's works are kind of this wink to the viewer

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<v Speaker 2>because the card scenes are both depicting something illegal but

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<v Speaker 2>also playful and absurd, like the games are going to

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<v Speaker 2>take place whether you like it or not, and whether

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<v Speaker 2>dog owners know about it or not.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's interesting. It's like Colige is saying chill

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<v Speaker 1>Out is just a card game right.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, and by using dogs as a stand in for humans,

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<v Speaker 2>it all seems pretty non threatening. I mean, who's going

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<v Speaker 2>to raid a late night dog party? Like, let the

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<v Speaker 2>dogs be dogs, you know, we always say that.

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<v Speaker 1>We always say that. I like how we're acting like

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<v Speaker 1>dogs drinking whiskey and betting with poker chips as dogs

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<v Speaker 1>being dogged.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, dog, let them be dogs. You know.

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<v Speaker 1>It's also worth men saying that the Dog's Playing Poker

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<v Speaker 1>series is very much a boys club, Like there's one

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<v Speaker 1>painting in the series where a bunch of angry female

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<v Speaker 1>dogs storm in to break up their husband's card game

0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.439
<v Speaker 1>like a marital police raid. And also coolidge state of

0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:02.520
<v Speaker 1>bachelor until his sixties. So as much as this might

0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.480
<v Speaker 1>have been like a light political statement, he was very much,

0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:08.520
<v Speaker 1>as our researcher Mary points out, a dude making art

0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.720
<v Speaker 1>for his fellow dudes, speaking of which we should talk

0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.240
<v Speaker 1>about the Masons. But before we do that, why don't

0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.320
<v Speaker 1>we take a quick break.

0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to part time Genius, where we're talking about dogs,

0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:37.400
<v Speaker 2>playing poker and doing other human stuff too. Of course, so, mege,

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I think you were going to tell us about the

0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.679
<v Speaker 2>artist Cash Coolidge's connection to Mason's or Masonic lodges. I

0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.880
<v Speaker 2>know you'd mentioned earlier that he used to do speed

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:47.120
<v Speaker 2>drawing events at them.

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so the Masonic stuff mostly goes back to one

0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.640
<v Speaker 1>of the paintings Coolidge produced as part of his commission

0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 1>from Brown and Bigelow. It's called Riding the Goat, and

0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.520
<v Speaker 1>it depicts a blindfolded dog riding a goat in front

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 1>of this proving audience of other dogs.

0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:03.360
<v Speaker 2>That's a little.

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Weird, Yeah, just the normal stuff you'd see at a

0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.800
<v Speaker 1>dog park. But unlike the poker game paintings, which are

0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.920
<v Speaker 1>more obviously relatable, the details Coolidge included in this painting

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.040
<v Speaker 1>are pretty odd, Like some dogs are wearing special circular hats.

0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 1>They're sitting at high desks, they're recording everything. One dog

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.560
<v Speaker 1>is wearing a pointy hat, a masquerade mask, and a cape.

0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:28.040
<v Speaker 1>And there's a blindfolded dog riding the goat. He actually

0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 1>has a rope around his neck which is being held

0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 1>by a cocker spaniel.

0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.440
<v Speaker 2>It's starting to sound a little eyes wide shut to

0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:35.120
<v Speaker 2>be honest with you.

0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it wouldn't be out of place in that movie

0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.600
<v Speaker 1>except for all the dogs. But the part of the

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:43.520
<v Speaker 1>reason this is depicted this way is that cast Coolidge

0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.199
<v Speaker 1>was definitely in the Freemason so that part's not a secret,

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.400
<v Speaker 1>but it's possible he included some mason imagery kind of

0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.839
<v Speaker 1>as a joke for his friends. There's a site called

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.439
<v Speaker 1>dogs Playing Poker dot org, which is actually an amazing resource.

0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.800
<v Speaker 1>It's made by a computer programmer named Joe, and he

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.559
<v Speaker 1>spoke to an anonymous mason who actually broke down the

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.920
<v Speaker 1>painting symbolism for the audience, and so this is what

0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.840
<v Speaker 1>the mason said. Quote Riding the Goat depicts one of

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:14.400
<v Speaker 1>the first three principal degrees of free masonry. The blindfold

0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 1>is an important part of the first three degrees and

0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.320
<v Speaker 1>has a specific and symbolic meaning in each degree. The

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.840
<v Speaker 1>rope around his neck is called a cable toe. Another

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.120
<v Speaker 1>important Masonic symbol. The three dogs sitting to the left

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.040
<v Speaker 1>at the desk indicate the three principal officers of any

0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.040
<v Speaker 1>Masonic lodge. The dog to the right is wearing a

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 1>red cap. In Scottish right Masonry, this cap is the

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 1>emblem of a kcch Mason. I'm not sure exactly what

0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.520
<v Speaker 1>that is, but clearly something of importance. And some dogs

0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:45.440
<v Speaker 1>are wearing blue caps, a symbol that represents a fifty

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.840
<v Speaker 1>year Mason, meaning dogs or people I guess who've been

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 1>initiated fifty or more years ago.

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it definitely feels very insidery.

0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but Kolitch also might have put in all that

0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.320
<v Speaker 1>imagery kind of as a joke for his fellow Masons. Basically,

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 1>there were old rumors that Mason's rode goats as a

0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.160
<v Speaker 1>form of initiation, and by Coolidge's time, Mason's had turned

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:09.200
<v Speaker 1>that accusation into an inside joke.

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.120
<v Speaker 2>So I guess he just used this thing he was

0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>getting paid to make as an opportunity to joke around

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:14.520
<v Speaker 2>with his boys.

0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>Basically, but Coolidge was a real creative force, and he

0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 1>did more than just paint dogs, doing things like he

0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:25.320
<v Speaker 1>really enjoyed making all kinds of art. And you know

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 1>those like plywood cutouts that you stick your face through.

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Like like the ones you'd see at a carnival or

0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:32.320
<v Speaker 2>an amusement park something like that.

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and boardwalks too, right, cash Coolidge patented those. He

0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.840
<v Speaker 1>called them comic foregrounds, and he created all these different

0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.960
<v Speaker 1>drawings to be used as the fake foregrounds. He actually

0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.560
<v Speaker 1>only patented a very specific version of these cutouts, ones

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.040
<v Speaker 1>that had an image of a person with their normal

0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.680
<v Speaker 1>head but the sketch of a very tiny body. So

0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.520
<v Speaker 1>there were no strong man or bikini body ones, which

0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:58.400
<v Speaker 1>is ridiculous. But it's amazing to me that he's behind

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 1>those and also illustrated tons of books. He wrote a play,

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:03.480
<v Speaker 1>he wrote a comic opera.

0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, this guy's all over the place, like from

0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.440
<v Speaker 2>starting a bank to writing an opera, Like if this

0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:10.560
<v Speaker 2>guy's done everything.

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's also weird stuff like the opera was

0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.000
<v Speaker 1>called King gall Nipper and it was about the marital

0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.080
<v Speaker 1>and the morris adventures of human tourists in the realm

0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 1>of the King of the Mosquitoes.

0:16:24.600 --> 0:16:27.080
<v Speaker 2>No, but It is kind of crazy that Coolidge was

0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.120
<v Speaker 2>so prolific and has done so many interesting things, but

0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:33.000
<v Speaker 2>the only thing he's really remembered for is his dog art.

0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:36.320
<v Speaker 2>And actually nobody remembers him. We just remember the dogs.

0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, people do love dogs. But you know,

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.520
<v Speaker 1>the nineteenth century was sort of a golden age of

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 1>dog art, and so this is the generation before Coolidge.

0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.800
<v Speaker 1>There's an artist named maud Earl and when Lancer who

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.480
<v Speaker 1>we mentioned before, Arthur Wardle and John Sargent Noble, and

0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.000
<v Speaker 1>they were all artists commissioned by Queen Victoria to make

0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 1>dog art. Apparently she liked many of us, was really

0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:05.439
<v Speaker 1>into dogs and particularly Pomeranians. But Lancer painted dozens of

0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.399
<v Speaker 1>Queen Victoria's pets and was rewarded with the Knighthood for

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.440
<v Speaker 1>the work, so, you know, pretty fancy. Also, this thing

0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 1>trickles down because the Queen's into it and royals are

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.720
<v Speaker 1>into it, Suddenly the middle classes into it as well,

0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 1>and by the end of the Victorian era, English homes

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.080
<v Speaker 1>were full of reproductions of his dog paintings.

0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>I feel like this was just the golden age of

0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 2>dog art. I mean, what a time to be alive. Mango.

0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean the DVC review of this twenty twenty

0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.520
<v Speaker 1>three exhibition of dog art actually shed some light on

0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.159
<v Speaker 1>why dogs in particular are fascinators so much. This is

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>how the review puts it. Dogs are borderline creatures on

0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.160
<v Speaker 1>the threshold of two worlds, the human and the animal.

0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.600
<v Speaker 1>We see human qualities like faithfulness, empathy, and intelligence mirrored

0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.840
<v Speaker 1>in canine behavior, but we also admired dog's sensory superpowers,

0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.200
<v Speaker 1>and they're more instinctive connection with the wild. We've always

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.280
<v Speaker 1>been infatuated with dogs because we consider them in betweeners,

0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:05.480
<v Speaker 1>half mirrors of our own behavior and half windows into

0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 1>the mysteries of nature.

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I do like Coolidge's ability to sort of

0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:13.679
<v Speaker 2>tap into this existing human fascination but then put his

0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:14.719
<v Speaker 2>own spin on it.

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:17.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean, his generation of work is kind of more

0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.640
<v Speaker 1>pop culture in a way. It's made for everyone, and

0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Mason's too. But the funny thing is that his wife

0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.200
<v Speaker 1>and daughter were never really into dogs. They were more

0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:27.840
<v Speaker 1>cat people.

0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.880
<v Speaker 2>That's pretty ridiculous. I mean, it's funny though. Coolidge's work

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.439
<v Speaker 2>have this light hearted element, but he's not painting for

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the Queen, and I think a lot of people would

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.919
<v Speaker 2>describe Coolidge's Dogs Playing Poker series as kitchy.

0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:42.280
<v Speaker 1>Can you explain that a little more?

0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, I actually have this in my notes. When you

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.000
<v Speaker 2>go to the Wikipedia article for kitch, the first image

0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 2>at the top of the page is of a friend

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:52.959
<v Speaker 2>in need and the caption says a common example of

0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:54.040
<v Speaker 2>modern kitch.

0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:57.240
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's interesting, So how are we defining kitch exactly?

0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.119
<v Speaker 2>So? Merriam Webster defines kitch as something that appeals to

0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:05.679
<v Speaker 2>popular or lowbrow taste and is often of poor quality,

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:10.959
<v Speaker 2>attacky or lowbrow quality or condition. And like, you're insulting

0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.439
<v Speaker 2>my dog's artwork here, But yeah, I know, it's just

0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>it's terrible. But it's also used ironically or with enough

0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.320
<v Speaker 2>self awareness that it can boomerang back around to actually

0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:22.200
<v Speaker 2>being a compliment.

0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:23.680
<v Speaker 1>How can it be a compliment?

0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, apparently the word emerged in the art markets of Munich,

0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.760
<v Speaker 2>and this was in the eighteen sixties and eighteen seventies,

0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.240
<v Speaker 2>describing cheap and popular pictures and sketches. And it might

0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 2>derive from the German word kitchen, which means to smear,

0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.800
<v Speaker 2>or from the German verb vert kitchen, which means to cheapen.

0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.479
<v Speaker 2>But you know, the most interesting theory is that it

0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:49.800
<v Speaker 2>could be an inversion of the French word chic, which

0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 2>basically means fashionable.

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's funny that kitch is like cheek backwards.

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>And when it's used in certain context, kitsch is definitely

0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.280
<v Speaker 2>an insult and it can definitely feel cheap. And some

0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.720
<v Speaker 2>examples of classic kitsch are Santa Claus in the supermarket

0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.960
<v Speaker 2>pictures of poodles with ribbons in their hair, souvenir snow glow.

0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 2>But then artists kind of inverted the idea and embraced it.

0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.080
<v Speaker 2>So think about people like Andy Warhol with his Marilyn

0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.359
<v Speaker 2>Monroe or Chairman Mau Prince, or Jeff Coons with his

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>balloon dog sculptures, those sorts of things.

0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.000
<v Speaker 1>So what do we think dogs playing poker is like?

0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.080
<v Speaker 1>Is it Jeff Coons or snow globe?

0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's kind of tough to say. In nineteen

0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.439
<v Speaker 2>thirty nine, the art critic Clement Greenberg wrote a famous

0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:39.360
<v Speaker 2>essay titled Avant Garde and Kitsch. It was done more

0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 2>to influence American ideas about kitch than anything else. So

0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>he basically says that urbanization and modern capitalism robs people

0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 2>of the time and space they need to engage with

0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.600
<v Speaker 2>authentic art, and that kitsch or commercial art arose as

0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.879
<v Speaker 2>a cheap replacement. And this was to occupy people's minds

0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and the little freedom that they do have. And he

0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:05.320
<v Speaker 2>also says, quote, kitsch is mechanical and operates by formulas.

0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:09.080
<v Speaker 1>I guess you could argue that like dogs playing poker

0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.639
<v Speaker 1>does just that. Like Coolidge hit a nerve with his

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.560
<v Speaker 1>first painting poker game and then he basically plugged in

0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 1>a formula scenes of dogs doing very human things, which

0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:19.680
<v Speaker 1>turned into commerce.

0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, that's totally it. But Greenberg also says this

0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:27.639
<v Speaker 2>about kitch. He says, now and then it produces something

0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>of merit, something that has an authentic folk flavor.

0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, these days, Coolidge's dog painting sell for hundreds of

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.920
<v Speaker 1>thousands of dollars, so it's kind of safe to say

0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.880
<v Speaker 1>he's transcended the average flea market level of kitch.

0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:41.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Plus, I feel like dogs playing Poker has worked its

0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.160
<v Speaker 1>way deep into our consciousness. There are multiple dogs playing

0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.760
<v Speaker 1>Poker references on the Simpsons. There was a two thousand

0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:55.199
<v Speaker 1>crime thriller starring Tim Curry called Four Dogs Playing Poker.

0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:58.960
<v Speaker 1>And you know that old SNL sketch where the Wild

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 1>and Crazy guys of course, in their very first appearance

0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:05.320
<v Speaker 1>on the show, there's a frame print of a Friend

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:07.200
<v Speaker 1>in Need that's hanging on their apartment wall.

0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.520
<v Speaker 2>God, that's amazing. It's so funny to imagine those guys

0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:13.720
<v Speaker 2>whose only interest was quote getting chicks, buying art for

0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 2>their apartment, and settling on dogs playing poker to attract chicks.

0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I feel like women see dogs playing poker and

0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:22.000
<v Speaker 1>just swoon.

0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:24.639
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, does it every time? You know? I actually

0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.480
<v Speaker 2>love this little anecdote about Gary Larson. Of course, you

0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:30.480
<v Speaker 2>know the cartoonists behind the Far Side comics, So he

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.720
<v Speaker 2>drew a Far Side cartoon where he imagined the dogs

0:22:33.720 --> 0:22:38.359
<v Speaker 2>playing poker. Artist earlier in his career painting giraffes, chickens

0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and other animals playing poker, but he didn't think the

0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:44.800
<v Speaker 2>artist's name was well known, so he randomly named him

0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:48.359
<v Speaker 2>Gus Nickerson. And then years later he read an article

0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:51.600
<v Speaker 2>about cash Coolidge and he learned more about them, and

0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>he said, quote, if you think about it, a Friend

0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.920
<v Speaker 2>in Need is arguably as famous in this country as

0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.399
<v Speaker 2>the Mona Lisa by what's his name? I just didn't

0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.880
<v Speaker 2>give Koolie his proper due so good.

0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:06.199
<v Speaker 1>That's such a huge endorsement. And I love Gary Larson

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.200
<v Speaker 1>so much. I love that, you know, he's this incredible

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:13.040
<v Speaker 1>illustrator and cultural commentator giving big ups to another artist.

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:15.520
<v Speaker 1>But you know, one thing I keep thinking about. It

0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 1>must be hard to shuffle cards with no thumbs.

0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:20.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, That's the one detail I've enough to be

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:23.240
<v Speaker 2>able to swallow like it's just not realistic, Mango.

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.960
<v Speaker 1>I know we'll never get over that, But how about

0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>we end on a little fact off.

0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:38.080
<v Speaker 2>All right, let's do it? All right? So we mentioned

0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 2>earlier that Coolidge's most famous painting often gets mistitled as

0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:45.760
<v Speaker 2>dogs playing poker, but you could just as easily call

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.840
<v Speaker 2>it dogs cheating at poker, because if you look closely,

0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.879
<v Speaker 2>only two of the seven dogs at the table seem

0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.080
<v Speaker 2>to be playing fair. The rest are either shiftily glancing

0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 2>at each other's hands or straight up passing cards under

0:23:58.359 --> 0:23:58.879
<v Speaker 2>the table.

0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:02.440
<v Speaker 1>One thing I learned this week is that dogs really

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.600
<v Speaker 1>do cheat at poker, or at least they can with

0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.600
<v Speaker 1>the proper training. And this is thanks to a technique

0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:11.720
<v Speaker 1>called hand targeting. A dog can be trained to use

0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:14.320
<v Speaker 1>his mouth to select a single playing card from someone's

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:16.919
<v Speaker 1>hand and then give that card to another player. So,

0:24:17.720 --> 0:24:20.600
<v Speaker 1>in theory, someone could cheat at poker by using dogs

0:24:20.600 --> 0:24:24.040
<v Speaker 1>to pass cards under the table, just like in Coolidge's paintings.

0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:27.119
<v Speaker 2>All right, well here's a quick one. In the early

0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:30.680
<v Speaker 2>two thousands, Value Soft Inc. Released a PC poker game

0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.080
<v Speaker 2>pattern off of Coolidge's paintings, and it was called, of course,

0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:37.919
<v Speaker 2>Dogs Playing Poker. The high stakes poker simulator featured a

0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:41.119
<v Speaker 2>cast of eighteen canine opponents for the player to face

0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:45.760
<v Speaker 2>off against, including a dalmatian, a mechanical dog, an ancient

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:49.159
<v Speaker 2>dinosaur dog, and what appears to be a cat wearing

0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:51.720
<v Speaker 2>a sign that says a dog, which I think is

0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 2>pretty fun. The game didn't hang around on shelves for long,

0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.680
<v Speaker 2>but intrepid poker hounds should still be able to sniff

0:24:57.720 --> 0:24:59.760
<v Speaker 2>it out online without too much trouble.

0:25:01.000 --> 0:25:03.400
<v Speaker 1>So when I think of Richard Nixon, I think about

0:25:03.400 --> 0:25:06.080
<v Speaker 1>the first president to ban soup from the White House dinners,

0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:08.720
<v Speaker 1>and also someone who used to call up Christian Latner

0:25:08.800 --> 0:25:11.120
<v Speaker 1>when he was a college basketball player to give him

0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:14.480
<v Speaker 1>advice at halftime. And of course I guess this watergate too.

0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:16.960
<v Speaker 1>But did you know that Richard Nixon was an excellent

0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:21.399
<v Speaker 1>poker player. Apparently he was so good that most of

0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:24.480
<v Speaker 1>his first political campaign was funded by winnings from his

0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:25.639
<v Speaker 1>time in the navy.

0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.679
<v Speaker 2>Ah, that's a good one. Actually, speaking of presidents playing poker,

0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 2>this is a funny one. According to the Lewis and

0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Sun Paper, President Harding once bet the entire set of

0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:39.560
<v Speaker 2>White House China in a poker game to General MacArthur's

0:25:39.600 --> 0:25:42.040
<v Speaker 2>wife Louise and lost it to her.

0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:48.760
<v Speaker 1>That's incredible. Did you know that at the Angola Prison

0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.800
<v Speaker 1>rodeo there's an event called convict Poker, which is more

0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.480
<v Speaker 1>like bulls playing poker, but apparently four inmates sit at

0:25:56.520 --> 0:25:58.800
<v Speaker 1>a table playing cards in the ring and then a

0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:01.399
<v Speaker 1>bull is released and the last man to leave the

0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:04.240
<v Speaker 1>table wins, which sounds terrifying.

0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:07.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't know about that all right.

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:10.040
<v Speaker 2>So getting back a little closer to dogs playing poker,

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.359
<v Speaker 2>here's the fact I've found about cats playing poker. So

0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:16.040
<v Speaker 2>it turns out that by the time Coolidge began his

0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:20.160
<v Speaker 2>series on dogs playing poker, British illustrator Lewis Wayne had

0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:24.719
<v Speaker 2>already spent several years anthropomorphizing cats for the London crowd

0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:28.720
<v Speaker 2>and his fansful style depicted cats walking on their hind legs,

0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:33.000
<v Speaker 2>wearing clothes, partaking in all sorts of social activities normally

0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:37.880
<v Speaker 2>reserved for humans, like golfing and celebrating Christmas, drinking cocktails,

0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:41.400
<v Speaker 2>and yes, even playing cards. So it's worth noting though,

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:45.160
<v Speaker 2>that Wayne's cats didn't restrict themselves to just poker. They

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:49.240
<v Speaker 2>were also avid bridge players too, which feels very cat.

0:26:49.200 --> 0:26:50.880
<v Speaker 1>Like and very classy.

0:26:51.240 --> 0:26:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:54.480
<v Speaker 1>So here's the thing that I learned, which is just

0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:56.879
<v Speaker 1>insane to be Do you know that there's a real

0:26:57.080 --> 0:27:00.840
<v Speaker 1>dog ashiba you knew named peanut Butter, the first dog

0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:03.560
<v Speaker 1>to speed run a video game at a twenty twenty

0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:07.520
<v Speaker 1>four Games Done Quick charity event. Peanut Butter used a

0:27:07.600 --> 0:27:10.800
<v Speaker 1>custom made controller. The dog was able to input commands

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:14.560
<v Speaker 1>from his owner and successfully clear all twenty five levels

0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:18.520
<v Speaker 1>of the nineteen eighty five nes game gyro Mighte. It

0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:21.560
<v Speaker 1>took peanut Butter twenty six minutes and twenty four seconds

0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.680
<v Speaker 1>to beat the game, which was just over two minutes

0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:27.800
<v Speaker 1>slower than the fastest human time on record, and in

0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 1>the month since the event, both peanut Butter and a

0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 1>husky named Coda have now surpassed that record, finishing the

0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:36.040
<v Speaker 1>game in right around twenty three minutes.

0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:39.840
<v Speaker 2>That is wild and unfortunately I don't think I can

0:27:39.880 --> 0:27:44.000
<v Speaker 2>beat a fact about video game playing dog. So yeah,

0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:45.680
<v Speaker 2>I think you win this one, Mango, I fold.

0:27:47.000 --> 0:27:49.480
<v Speaker 1>I love it. Well. That's it for today as part

0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>Time Genius, and next week we're going to be trying

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:53.480
<v Speaker 1>something new. We're going to be putting out a few

0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:57.440
<v Speaker 1>episodes a week, but we do need feedback, so writers

0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:00.479
<v Speaker 1>at peat Genius, moms at gmail dot com and let

0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:02.320
<v Speaker 1>us know what you'd like, what you want to hear,

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.840
<v Speaker 1>anything else that's on your mind. And you can also

0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.960
<v Speaker 1>find us on Instagram at part Time Genius. Again, we

0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:14.040
<v Speaker 1>reopened that account and are taking messages there. So from Mary, Gabe, Dylan,

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:30.120
<v Speaker 1>Will and myself, thank you so much for listening. Part

0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 1>show is hosted by Will Pearson and me Mongaishatikler and

0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:42.560
<v Speaker 1>research by our good pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode

0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.560
<v Speaker 1>was engineered and produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with

0:28:45.640 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 1>support from Tyler Klang. The show is executive produced for

0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:52.920
<v Speaker 1>iHeart by Katrina Norvell and Ali Perry, with social media

0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:57.040
<v Speaker 1>support from Sasha Gay, Trustee Dara Potts, and Vinny Shorey.

0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:02.200
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.