1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Hey, it's me Rebecca Greenfield, the host of The Paycheck 2 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: Welcome Back. Last season, we looked at a lot of 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:16,760 Speaker 1: the reasons why women earn less than men, from illegal 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: discrimination to the everyday workplace sexism that makes it harder 5 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: for women to get raises and promotions. But one idea 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: in particular really stayed with us that there's one thing 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: that hurts women's earnings more than anything else. I don't 8 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: want to say that there's no sexual harassment, no gender discrimination, 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: no bias, no absence of negotiation skills, no lack of 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: competition for women relative to men. I never want to 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: ignore someone's hurt in someone's stories. That's Claudia Golden. She's 12 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: an economics professor at Harvard University. She's been studying women 13 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: work and pay for decades, and she says, even if 14 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: we were able to magically erase workplace discrimination, harassment and 15 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: all that other stuff, the gender pay gap would still 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: exist and it would still be pretty big. But I 17 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: think it's extremely important to point out what the real 18 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: problem is. So what is the real problem? What Claudia 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: calls joyful events also known as having kids, And she's 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: got a point. Study after study has found that the 21 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: gender pay gap widens to a chasm after a woman 22 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: has her first child. It's true even if she continues 23 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: to work full time. It's true for women at different 24 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: levels of education and income. It's true even for women 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: with same sex partners. Over and over again, that's what 26 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: the data show. It's not that women don't face discrimination 27 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: or get pushed into lower paying jobs. They do, but 28 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: the impact of having kids on women's earnings is way bigger. 29 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: If we take a group of women who never took 30 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: time off and who don't have kids, their earnings don't 31 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: seem to deviate as much from men's. The gender pay 32 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: gap often gets talked about as women versus men, but 33 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: really it's moms versus everyone else. We talked to a 34 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: lot of moms for this season, and they'll tell you 35 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: exactly why they're not making as much as men, because 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: there are only so many hours in a day. You know. 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: I decided to work part time so that I could 38 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: spend more time with the kids. It's definitely more challenging 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: than I would have expected, especially as my kids become 40 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: more involved in extracurricular activities. But then I feel like 41 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: I'm not moving my career forward right now, and I 42 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: just feel really kind of stuck. I remember my colleagues 43 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: sort of ship talking somebody else who left it five 44 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: and me being like, oh god, can I do that? 45 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: In general, the office is on the standing, But then, um, 46 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: it's disappointing when you see a comment an annual review 47 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: about how you change your hours or took a day 48 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: off unpredictably. At the same time, I feel like I 49 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: should be grateful because I'm lucky that I do get 50 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: to work just three days a week. I want to 51 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: day at home. I have small kids. They don't have 52 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: a babysitter who is just able to hang out with them. 53 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: I don't have the cash for that. And what's frustrating 54 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: about being working mom. I feel like I can't be 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: doing my best at both. I actually can't really do 56 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: it all, and that weighs on me. These joyful events, 57 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: it turns out they're having not so joyful consequences. When 58 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: you look at the world, you know what the population like, 59 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Where is our place like? Where is our value? Women 60 00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: deserve people for people work and nation y a comedian 61 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: salary for men is greater than women In weeks six 62 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: percent of major occupations when men have children, they experience 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: a pay bump when women have children. The opposite happens 64 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: when women are financially stronger. It's good for their families, 65 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: it's put money to the economy in the markets. It's 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: good for everybody. Gender is no longer the factor creating 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: the greatest way to discrepancy in this country. Motherhood is. 68 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: For the next six weeks, we're going to investigate the 69 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: impact of having kids on women's paychecks and why it's 70 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: such an important part of the gender pay gap. First, 71 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: we're going to take a cold economic look at that 72 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: joyful event. I know it's weird to talk about the 73 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: miracle of life and economic terms, but until relatively recently, 74 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: that was the full time job for a lot of women, 75 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: because having kids was critical to the economic well being 76 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 1: of families and society. Those kids worked, they joined the army, 77 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: bought stuff. But when women went to work for actual money, 78 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: that turned out to be good for the economy too. 79 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: When you look at American economic growth in the last century, 80 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,239 Speaker 1: a lot of it can be traced to women going 81 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: to work on mass. But the thing is, as more 82 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 1: women went to get paying jobs, we never stopped doing 83 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: that first job. Many women now work and have kids. 84 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: We call us having it all like it's an achievement 85 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: or even a choice. But when we talk about having 86 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: it all, what we're really talking about is having two jobs. 87 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 1: And as anybody who has two jobs will tell you, 88 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: doing two things at once has costs. I guess I 89 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: didn't realize how much work it would be, and that 90 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: taking care of kids would be like a full time 91 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: job that just doesn't have a salary. Balancing or managing 92 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: work and family responsibilities for me has been really tricky. 93 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: It's part plate spinning, part magic act, and definitely part 94 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: wishful thinking. I also need coffee to make it through 95 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: a day now. Prior to having children, I consumed it 96 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: here and there, but I averaged a lot less sleep, 97 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty much moving from five thirty in the 98 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: morning until then thirty at night without a doubt. Though 99 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: whenever I've hit a stride at work, someone at home 100 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: would break a bone or have an allergy attack, or 101 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: get an opportunity at something that they really wanted but 102 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: which required a substantial amount of support for me. And 103 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: now I'm down to sixteen hours a week, and at 104 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 1: this point I feel like I am sort of Okay. 105 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: The only reason I'm able to do this is because 106 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: I had a spouse who makes a decent living and 107 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: he brings home the bacon. I've missed a lot of 108 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: my daughter's first birthday, for example, my son's first soccer goal. Uh. 109 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: And I often feel mildly bad and sometimes tearably bad 110 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: at all of the things that I care about, And 111 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: I think about my priorities right now, it's work and kids, 112 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: and my relationship comes comes last. And there's a fall 113 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: up from that. This balancing act. It has financial consequences. 114 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: It's showing up in their paychecks. Gina Smile covers economics 115 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg. I brought her in to tell me how 116 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: exactly this plays out. Hi, Gina, Hi, Becca, So are 117 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: women just getting pregnant and taking a pay cut. It's 118 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: not that simple, Okay, So tell me what is happening 119 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: to women's earnings over their lifetimes. So it's pretty stark. 120 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: When women first start working, they're making a little bit 121 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: less than men. For college educated women, when they're twenty five, 122 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: they're making on average of what men do. But by 123 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: the time they're forty five, they're earning so a little 124 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: bit more than half of what amand does. So men 125 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: are making almost twice as much as women do buy 126 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: their mid forties. That's a huge difference. Why is such 127 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: a small earnings differential exploding into this big gap. It's 128 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: about what happens when women are having kids. So in 129 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: Claudia Golden and two other academics tested that idea in 130 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: a really novel way. They studied what happened to a 131 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: group of NBA students at the University of Chicago after 132 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: they graduated. And so this is a group of competitive, 133 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: ambitious people who all have pretty similar credentials a graduation. 134 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: So you think that their pay would be pretty equal. Yeah. 135 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: At graduation, the women in the study are earning something 136 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: similar to what their classmates are making just about less. Okay, 137 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: so not exactly equal. But the thing is that it 138 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: got a lot worse. So nine years later, women in 139 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: this study were earning two hundred and fifty thousand dollars 140 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: on average. Men we're making four hundred thousand, almost two 141 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars more. Yeah, because these are higher earners, 142 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: the gaps are particularly big. But it's an example of 143 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: what happens throughout the economy at different income levels. Okay, 144 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: so we know this happens in this decade when women 145 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: are in their twenties and thirties, also known as the 146 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: child bearing years. So what's happening. Well, A big part 147 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: of the difference seems to come from job interruptions, so 148 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: time out of the workforce, to drop an hour's etcetera. 149 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: When a woman has a child, two things happen. She 150 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 1: takes off at least a little time from maternity leave 151 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: at a minimum, but she's also more likely to work 152 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: a little bit less even after that. Maybe that's a 153 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: shift of part time work, or it could just be 154 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: not being on call all the time, which could matter in, 155 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: for instance, a demanding consulting job. Here's Claudie again. When 156 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: I say that they've taken off some time, it's not 157 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: that they've taken off a lot of time. They've taken 158 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: off just a small amount of time. But the penalties 159 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: it appears for deviation in the corporate and the financial 160 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: sectors are extremely large. Part of it is that if 161 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: you're an eye banking, you better be working very very 162 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: long hours. If you're in consulting, you better be working 163 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: very long hours and rather uncontrollable, unpredictable rush, on call, etcetera. 164 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: So it happens, Claudia says, is that in almost every 165 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: two parent household, one of those parents is taking on 166 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: the line's share of child related responsibility. In order to 167 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: do that, they're having to work a little bit less. 168 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: That could mean just having a hard stop at the 169 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: end of the day, you know, taking time to relieve 170 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: the babysitters, or taking sick days when their kids are sick. 171 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: There's nothing really special about women here except that they 172 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: tend to be the on call parent. They're also the 173 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: ones who are more likely to take that pay hit. 174 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: Is this true everywhere? That's what the research suggests. There's 175 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: a pay gap related to motherhood in many places, but 176 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: it varies in magnitude. So in Denmark, for example, women 177 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: who have kids do earn less, but the gap isn't 178 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: nearly as large as it is in some other places. 179 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: We're looking at penalties in the long run that are 180 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: larger in the UK and the US, and we're looking 181 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: at child penalties and the German speaking countries that are 182 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: almost three times as large. That's Henrik Clevin. He's an 183 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: economist at Princeton University, and in a recent paper he 184 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: compared the pay gaps across six countries Denmark, Sweden, the UK, 185 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: the US, Austria and Germany. Those countries were all interesting 186 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: to Clevin because they have different public policies for working moms. 187 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: Some places have paid rent to leave, others had subsidized childcare. 188 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: What's interesting, though, is his research found that the differences 189 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: had less to do with public policies in these given countries, 190 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: and then they did with societal expectations for women. But 191 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: we hypolicize that a lot of this has to do 192 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: with differences in social norms about what men and women 193 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: should do after they have kids. So what's going on 194 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: is that in countries where people express a strong conviction 195 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: that women with young kids should stay at home, the 196 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: gender pay gap is a lot bigger if you think 197 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: about it. Germany has a lot of the same social 198 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: safety nets as Denmark. Women get more than a year 199 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: of paid parental eave, for instance, yet they saw a 200 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: pay gap for working moms that's three times as large. 201 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: That is surprising that two places with generous policies for 202 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: working women have such different wage outcomes for moms. Yeah, 203 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: so that's where social norms come in. So Germany and 204 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: Austria both have very traditional views on gender roles, at 205 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: least based on this survey, and they also have bigger 206 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: motherhood related gender wage gaps. You look at countries in Scandinavia, 207 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: so Denmark for example, and respondents were more comfortable with 208 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: women at work, and so the wage gaps in those places, 209 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: although they still exist, are a lot smaller. Does that 210 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: mean that public policies are completely useless. M not necessarily, 211 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: but they have a surprising perk. Here's Henrick again. So 212 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: it could be that policies still have an important role 213 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: to play because they affect the social norm. If people 214 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: are making less because they want to work less, that's 215 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: their choice. But what merits for their examination is if 216 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: women are being forced to choose between equality and motherhood. 217 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: When a culture tells women that their main job is 218 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: taking care of their home and their kids, well that's 219 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: what they prioritize. When women get the message that it's 220 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: acceptable and even expected that they'll work outside the home, 221 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: they do that too, which brings us back to having 222 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: it all. Here's Cheryl Sandberg during the heyday of len In. 223 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: Mothers in the United States are in the workforce because 224 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: they have to be, and so telling women constantly you 225 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: can't have it all, you can have it all, is 226 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: not helpful because they have to. For the last few weeks, 227 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: I've been talking to women in their twenties and thirties, 228 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: when their careers and prime childbearing years are just getting started. 229 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how ambitious women with big plans 230 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: for their careers also thought about out their plans to 231 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: have kids, and you can hear them wrestling with these 232 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: two conflicting ambitions. I see myself sometimes thinking I would 233 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: love to be a full time mom at some point, 234 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: but I think the anxiety of what if I want 235 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: to return to the workforce, what does that even mean? 236 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: What does that look like? I think I've always just 237 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: known I've wanted to have kids has never been a question. 238 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: But in terms of how it would affect my career, yeah, 239 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: of course, it's going to hold you back from a 240 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: lot of things. I was a person who delayed my 241 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: first pregnancy because I was always thinking about sort of 242 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: a corporate calendar. Um. I was really like, oh, if 243 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: I got pregnant this month, that would be after this 244 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: executive meeting, before this time of year. I mean, I 245 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: grew up like I think any female grew up like 246 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: with society telling them that's what they're supposed to do. 247 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: You went to a good school, um, and you met someone, 248 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: and you had a career, and then you had kids. 249 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: I think like if I were to be a mom, 250 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: I would want to be a good mom um, and 251 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: I don't think with where I'm headed, I would be 252 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: able to give them the kind of time that they deserve. 253 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm also at this exact point in my life. I'm thirty, 254 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: the same age my mom was when she started her family, 255 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: and just about the average age women in New York 256 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: City where I live have their first kid. Just like 257 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: these women I talked to, I'm deeply ambivalent, and it 258 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: feels kind of scary to say that out loud, like 259 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: I'm some heartless monster for not being a hundred percent 260 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: sure that I want to have kids or when when 261 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: I do think about it. I know from the reporting 262 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: I do and the moms, I know that there will 263 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: be penalties financial but also emotional, and that having a 264 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: kid will require more compromises of me than my male partner. 265 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: For a lot of women, these are good enough reasons 266 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: not to have kids at all. But I'm not there yet. 267 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: What I and all the other women I spoke to 268 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: know in our bones is that if we want to 269 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: embody both identities, have both a job, money power, financial security, 270 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: and a family, something's got to give. Because even the 271 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: people who seem to embody the ideal of having it 272 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: all don't. Tammy Duckworth, who lost both legs in combat, 273 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: is the first disabled woman elected to Congress. She is 274 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: also the first Senator to give birth while in office, 275 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: and today's she helped make history again when her daughter 276 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: was the first infant allowed on the Senate floor from 277 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: the outside. Senator Tammy Duckworth is a picture of progress. 278 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: She's a U S Senator, a war hero, and a 279 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: working mother of two. She even had the Senate rules 280 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: changed so now any Senator, if that's a working parent, 281 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: can bring their baby to the Senate floor. But we 282 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: often spend so much time applauding Senator Duckworth's achievements that 283 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: we failed to hear what she had to do to 284 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: get there. So I asked her it was tough, It 285 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: was misery. Um, it was just hard on me, hard 286 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: on my family. But I'm so so lucky to have 287 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: both my daughters, and I'm so proud to be a 288 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: U S Senator. Like a lot of working women, Senator 289 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: Duckworth put her career a military career first. For a 290 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: long time. She became a commissioned officer in the Army 291 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: Reserves and went on to become a helicopter pilot back 292 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: when it was one of the few combat jobs open 293 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: to women. After she was injured in a rock she 294 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: came home and ran for office. The first part of 295 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,360 Speaker 1: my career, I was on track to become a platoon 296 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: leader and try to become a company commander and UM 297 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: operations officer and executive officer in my army unit. And 298 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: none of those things I could pursue and take time 299 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 1: off UM and mommy track and take time off to 300 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: go of children. I just kept pursuing my career. And 301 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: then the next thing I know, I look up and 302 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm thirty six years old, And what happened to my 303 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,719 Speaker 1: most fertile years. By the time she decided to have kids, 304 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: she was forty, and by then it wasn't so easy. 305 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: My guynacologist said to me, she said, you know, is 306 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: this common now? Women? We we trade our fertility for 307 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: our careers early on, Well, I didn't know when I 308 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: was forty and decided I was going to try to 309 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: have kids and I would struggle with infertility for at 310 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: least another six years. She had her first daughter when 311 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: she was forty six, and then another when she was fifty. 312 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: This is the point in the story where we declare, 313 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 1: she has beaten the odds in a million different ways. 314 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: She has got it all. I felt like I was 315 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: never good enough whatever I was doing. When I was 316 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,479 Speaker 1: with my my older daughter. I wanted to be with her, 317 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: but then I felt like I was neglecting my job. 318 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: As I was campaigning for the Senate, I felt like 319 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: I was leaving my daughter behind it. And I mean 320 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: there was even one point where I broke I'm crying 321 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: during a campaign meeting where I would just so upset 322 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: and mad at my staff for switching my schedule, which 323 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: meant I was going to get, you know, an extra 324 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: forty five minutes less time with my daughter. And um, Finally, 325 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: one of my staff members put me a science like Tammy, 326 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: there's no happy medium, it's just going to suck. The 327 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: senator told me a story about going back to her 328 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: job while she was still nursing her infant daughter. To 329 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: fully appreciate it, we need to take a quick biological 330 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: aside in order to breastfeed the baby, which is what 331 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends. A woman's body makes milk. 332 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: If that milk doesn't get expressed multiple times a day, 333 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: either by a baby's nursing or a press pump, everything 334 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: goes out. At best, it's physically uncomfortable. At worst, it 335 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: can make women sick and their bodies will stop making 336 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: enough milk to feed their babies. For working moms, that 337 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: means figuring out how to fit multiple pumping brakes into 338 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: your work day or, in the editors case, a packed 339 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: campaign schedule. I breastfed my first daughter for a little 340 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: over a year, and I was traveling around the country 341 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: and I couldn't find a clean, safe place to express 342 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: breast milk. And airports people were telling me, oh, just 343 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: go use the handicap stall on the public toilet, or oh, 344 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: you need to plug in your breast pump where you 345 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: can go use the outlet where everyone else is charging 346 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: their phones. I'm like, I'm not going to sit there 347 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: and pump breastmilk next to total strangers, or or you know, 348 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 1: and use the toilet. Um that's discussing, Senator Duckworth wrote, 349 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: impassed legislation that requires all medium and large airports to 350 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: have clean private rooms where women can go breastfeed or 351 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: pump while traveling. But these are the calculations working moms 352 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: have to make all the time, and not just in airports, 353 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: and not just when it comes to breastfeeding. Do you 354 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: skip the meaning to take a pumping break? Do you 355 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: leave early to pick up your sick kid? Do you 356 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: work from home and miss out on important face time? 357 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: Towards the end of her first pregnancy, Senator Duckworth's doctor 358 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: told her that she couldn't travel. It was too dangerous 359 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: and would compromise her pregnancy. At the time, she had 360 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 1: a job where her physical presence was required. She was 361 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: a congresswoman and had to be at the US Capital 362 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: to cast her votes. The Senator asked if she could 363 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: vote by proxy. Her colleagues and the Democratic Party rejected 364 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: her request. They didn't want to set a precedent for 365 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: everyone else who might have a doctor's note saying that 366 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: they can't travel for medical reasons. They treated her like 367 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: she was a worker with a rare medical emergency, not 368 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: like a woman in a common and temporary biological situation. 369 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: So Senator Duckworth had to miss a handful of votes. 370 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: She couldn't do her job, and she's still paying for it. 371 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,959 Speaker 1: In the official record, Tammy Duckworth has missed twelve of 372 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: roll call votes since she's been in the Senate. That's 373 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: a lot more than most of her colleagues. Here's what 374 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: that stat doesn't tell you. For most of those votes, 375 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: she was on maternity leave. It's hard. You try to 376 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: do everything and you try to um, you know, live 377 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: up to that image of what a good mom is 378 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: and what a you know, good worker is in the workplace, 379 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: and and I think women we tend to try to 380 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: be perfect and everything and you just can't. So you 381 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: have to give yourself the room to do the best 382 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: job that you can and then keep moving forward. How 383 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: did we get here and what can we do about it? Well, 384 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: over the next five weeks, we're going to figure this 385 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: out together, because it turns out research shows that kids 386 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:47,120 Speaker 1: of working moms grow into happy adults. Their daughters are 387 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: more likely to have successful careers, and their sons spend 388 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 1: more time caring for family members. Working moms are making 389 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: a path towards a more equal world for their kids, 390 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: even if they don't always feel like it. Next week 391 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: on the Paycheck, how women get sidelined at work for 392 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: being moms before they even have kids. You know, as 393 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: the morning anchor. Viewers want to see a beauty queen. 394 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: So I'm pregnant now I've gained like forty pounds. I 395 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: knew it would be an issue. Thanks for listening to 396 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: The Paycheck. If you like the show, please head on 397 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to rate, review, 398 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: and subscribe. The show was hosted and reported by me 399 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: Rebecca Greenfield and reported by Gina Smile. This episode was 400 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: edited by Janet Paskin and produced by Liz Smith. We 401 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: also had production help from Francesca Levy, Jillian Goodman, and 402 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: Samantha get Sick. Our original music is by Leo Sidron. 403 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: Pamela Guest did the illustrations on our show page, which 404 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: you can find at Bloomberg dot com Slash the Paycheck. 405 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: We also want to thank the Wing for allowing us 406 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: to record on site, and thank all of the moms 407 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: who took the time to speak with us. Francesca Levy 408 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: is Bloomberg's head of That's