1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 2: I think it's important in doing these cases not to 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: forget that there are real consequences for the victims. These 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: consequences last a lifetime. 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 11 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 13 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 14 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 15 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. LA Times reporter Christopher Gofford 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: was the voice behind the hit podcast Dirty John, and 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: now he has a new podcast that covers crimes that 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: made headlines in Los Angeles, stories like the murder of 19 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: actress Rebecca Shaeffer at the hands of a stalker. He 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: tells me about his show, Crimes of the Times. So 21 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: I wanted you to talk first about the Rebecca Schaeffer case, 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: and it really piqued my interest because I just a 23 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: few weeks ago interviewed Marcia Clark for. 24 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 2: Her new book, which I'm also doing a show on. Yes, 25 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: the Barbara Graham Case. 26 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Good oh man, what a case. And she's such a 27 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: good storyteller. So I talked to her and I said, 28 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: you know, I think everybody knew her from OJ, but 29 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: I remember being younger and seeing her and reading about 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: the Rebecca Schaeffer case because that case was really my 31 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: introduction to stalking, and I think it was for a 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: lot of people. And Rebecca Schaeffer to me seemed like 33 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: sort of the quote unquote perfect victim. I mean, I 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: had never heard anything about her that would have even 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: been remotely negative. She's sort of this pristine figure. I 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: loved the show that she was on. You know, of 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 1: course there was Reagan and of course John Lennon, but 38 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: this was a woman and it impacted me differently. So 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: why don't we start there? And how did you even 40 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,839 Speaker 1: pick her to be your first episode? 41 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: Well, we were looking for stories that had some larger significance, 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: and this one had a huge effect on the stalking laws, 43 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: and in nineteen eighty nine when this happened, stalking wasn't 44 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: really a crime per se. I mean, there were civil remedies. 45 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: Maybe if you were being stocked, you could file a 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 2: restraining order that didn't necessarily always have teeth. But in 47 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: July nineteen eighty nine, when she was murdered, the laws 48 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: that we kind of take for granted today were not 49 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: in effect, and the case had a lot to do 50 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: with making that possible. Because of the circumstances surrounding the killing, 51 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: a lot of people saw her as just the picture 52 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,800 Speaker 2: of innocence and vulnerability. Rebecca Schaeffer was twenty one years old. 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 2: She'd been on the show My Sister Sam, a sitcom. 54 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 2: Pam Dauber was her co star, who people remember from 55 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 2: Morgan MINDI. The show ran from nineteen eighty six to 56 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: I think about nineteen eighty eight, and this guy, Robert Bardo, 57 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 2: who was a teenager in Tucson and kind of a 58 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: misfit who had worked a grill at Jack in the 59 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: Box but really couldn't hold down a job, became fixated 60 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: on her, and he began sending her letters, and at 61 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: some point he received what felt to him like a 62 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: personalized response. Was never clear to me whether she wrote 63 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: it herself or whether the writing of it was outsourced 64 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: to a company. But he received a letter something along 65 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: the lines of yours is one of the nicest letters 66 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: I've received, and he interpreted it as she's into me. 67 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 2: At least that seemed to help the seed of that 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: misunderstand and grow, and so he becomes increasingly obsessed with her. 69 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: He's got a shrine to her. He takes a Greyhound 70 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: out to Los Angeles and he tries to find her 71 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: on the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank, and he brings 72 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: a teddy Bear. He's at the security gate and he 73 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 2: very insistently tries to get to her, and the security 74 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 2: guard puts him in his car and takes him back 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: to his hotel and basically sends him back on his 76 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: way to Tucson. Bardo is also obsessed with a number 77 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 2: of other people, like Debbie Gibson. He's obsessed with the 78 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: girl who wrote a letter to the Soviet premiere asking 79 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: for world peace. He goes to the hotel in New 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 2: York where John Lennon was living, seeming to walk in 81 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: the path of other Stoker Slash assassins, and then something 82 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 2: changes in him when Rebecca Schaeffer years in this TV 83 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: movie called Scenes from the Class Struggle in Beverly Hills, 84 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: where she appears in a love scene. To him, this 85 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: seems like a betrayal. Some evil switch is flipped in 86 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: his brain. He gets on a bus again, comes out 87 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: to La and this time he's got a gun. He 88 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: finds out where she is because he hires a private 89 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: eye for two hundred and fifty dollars, and for that price, 90 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: the private eye consults the Department of Motor Vehicles Records 91 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 2: finds her address. This is how he gets her address 92 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: in West Hollywood. He goes out there. He's at her 93 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: door twice. The first time it's a few words that 94 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: are exchanged between them. He goes away. Then he comes 95 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 2: back and by his account, she is impatient with him 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: and brushes him off, and he says that she's callous, 97 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 2: and he pulls out his gun and he shoots her 98 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: and kills her. That day, she was getting ready for 99 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 2: an audition. She was going to audition for The Godfather 100 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: Part three with Francis Ford Coppola, and he runs off. 101 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 2: He's got a copy of the Catcher and the Rye, 102 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 2: which I talked to Marcia Clark about on my podcast. 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: There's this strange reoccurrence of that book in a number 104 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: of these cases, including the Mark David Chapman case and 105 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: the John Hinckley case, and Marcia Clark, the prosecutor. Her 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: theory was that these guys imitate each other. It's not 107 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: necessarily about the content of the book itself. It's the 108 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: fact that it's sort of a token that one guy 109 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: has that the subsequent stalkers who are imitating him want 110 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: to adopt as their own. And he's found shortly thereafterwards. 111 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: I think he's running on an on ramp in Tucson 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: and he's arrested, and there isn't any doubt that he 113 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 2: did it. But the case that Marcia Clark makes at 114 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: trial for first degree murder is challenged by the defense attorneys. 115 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: They're saying it's a second degree murder, that he did 116 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 2: it on. 117 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: Impulse, he brought a gun. 118 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: He brought a gun. In the podcast, which is the first, 119 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 2: the first podcast of this new series, I'm doing Time 120 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: of the Times, she describes how she studied the tape, 121 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: the tape confession that this killer Bardo gave to a 122 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: court appointed psychiatrist in which she acts out the killing. 123 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: He acts out the conversation that they had at the door, 124 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 2: and she studies it and studies it and realizes that 125 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: his words are contradicted by his body language and that 126 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: he's putting his hand behind his back, and this, to 127 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: her indicates that he was concealing the weapon, and she 128 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,239 Speaker 2: has the element of lying in wait, which doesn't involve 129 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: necessarily jumping out from behind a bush or whatever. If 130 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: you're concealing the weapon, it qualifies, and so she successfully 131 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: makes the argument for first supree murder and he goes 132 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: away for life. And one of the things that this 133 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: case really produced was a deeper awareness of stockings, stockers 134 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: and their dangers, and California became the first state to 135 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: pass anti stocking legislation, and the other states followed suit. 136 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: Then there was a federal anti statute, and a lot 137 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: of it sprang from this case, as well a few 138 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: other awful cases that occurred that year nineteen eighty nine 139 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 2: in Orange County involving stalkers who killed women. So that's 140 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: why we picked that case because it has a broad 141 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 2: resonance in terms of how it affected the legal landscape. 142 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: In a way more significant in a certain sense than 143 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 2: the OJ case that Marsha Clark did a few years 144 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: later that people know we're from. 145 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that Rebecca Schaefer case. I still think 146 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: about that all the time. It was so startling for 147 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: me being a young person, you know, as fifteen at 148 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: the time, having watched that show over the past couple 149 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: of years, and then reading something that terrible happened to 150 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: that person. Do you think now that celebrities get lessons somehow? 151 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's from their agents or what 152 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: is the advice. This is how you get rid of 153 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: all your public information. This is what you change up always, 154 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: no matter how small of an actor you are, you 155 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: need to change up your routine. 156 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think they're much much more aware. One 157 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: of the things that Marcia Clark emphasized is how naive 158 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: everybody was at the time. I mean even the security 159 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: guard at Worner Brothers who sent the killer on his way. 160 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 2: I don't think it rang alarm bells in a way 161 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: that it would today. And of course there's a whole 162 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: threat assessment industry that has taken off that celebrities use 163 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: and high profile people use. So yeah, I think there's 164 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: a whole new awareness of the dangers Robert Bardo killed 165 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: Rebecca Schaeffer was also taking his cues in a certain 166 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: way from an earlier case. There was an actress named 167 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: Teresa Saldana. Do you remember A Raging Bull? Yes, she 168 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: played Joe Peshi's wife. A few years before this case. 169 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: She had been stocked and nearly stabbed to death by 170 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 2: an attacker. She lived, but there was a story about 171 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 2: it in I think it was Time magazine or Life magazine, 172 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: in which the writer mentioned how the attacker was able 173 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 2: to find Teresa Saldana and it was through a private eye, 174 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: I believe. And it was based on that story and 175 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: that clue that Robert Bardo found Rebecca Schaeffer. Another thing 176 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: this case led to was a clamp down on the 177 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: availability of private information through the Department of Motor Vehicles. 178 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: That was considered a big victory for privacy at the time, 179 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: although now it's almost totally obsolete because you can get 180 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 2: so much with just a click of the button. 181 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: Tell me about the threat assessment industry, So is that 182 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: an expert who will just sort of look at you 183 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: and your lifestyle and how does it work? 184 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, they're private eyes who specialize in this stuff, 185 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: and they show you how to handle difficult situations, how 186 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 2: to improve your security profile and all that sort of thing. Also, 187 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: the LAPD really beefed up its threat assessment unit after 188 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: this case, so the changes were significant. Not all the 189 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: cases that I'm writing about we're doing podcasts about necessarily 190 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: have that kind of long tail, but we thought it 191 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: was a good idea to start with one that did. 192 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, seeing Rebecca Shaeffer on my sister Sam and 193 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: feeling connected to her as a young girl, there's that 194 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: part of it, the devastation of finding out what happened 195 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: to her. But then when I watched the reaction from 196 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: that female tennis player recently, you know, who spotted her 197 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: stalker and the audience looking at this young woman essentially 198 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: hiding behind someone because she's frightened, that sort of visceral 199 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: reaction is the same thing I felt with Rebecca Shaeffer. 200 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: I mean, just awful. 201 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, one of the ironies is that 202 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 2: the anti stoking laws that sprang up after this would 203 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: not necessarily have kicked in in the Robert Bardo case 204 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: because the letters that he sent her did not contain 205 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: anything with overt threats in them. They were basically fan 206 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: letters and love letters. I mean, it was all going 207 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: in one direction, of course, But even her father, Rebecca 208 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: Shaffer's father, who was a a therapist in Oregon, read 209 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: the letters and did not sense any overt menace. He 210 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: read him and said, it looks like kind of a 211 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: lost young man. The people who do the most violent 212 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: things aren't necessarily telegraphing exactly what they'll do, and in 213 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 2: this case, I don't know. I don't know what the 214 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: laws would have done with this particular guy, which makes it, 215 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 2: in a way even more eerie and terrifying. 216 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: So now you know, I'm sure celebrities and their representatives 217 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: know exactly how they're supposed to respond to stuff like this, 218 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: to de escalate something that could be in the works. 219 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: I think that's safe to say. 220 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: Why don't we move on to another case. I know 221 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,839 Speaker 1: that you've done an episode on Patty Hurst, which I'm 222 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: assuming most people have heard of, But you know, again, 223 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: we have such a younger audience and you really never know. 224 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: And this is a true crime story but slightly different 225 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: than what we're used to also, so set that up 226 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: for the people who don't know the story of Patty Hurst. 227 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: So Patricia Hurst was the heiress of the Hurst media empire. 228 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: Some of your listeners may have seen the film Citizen Kane, 229 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: which was based on the original hearst the newspaper magnet. 230 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: Patricia Hurst was a student at UC Berkeley in nineteen 231 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 2: seventy four, and a group of Marxist revolutionary urban terrorists 232 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: known as the Symbionese Liberation Army the SLA, decided to 233 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: kidnap her. And I interviewed the guy who did it. 234 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: His name is Bill Harris. He's still alive, living in 235 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 2: San Francisco. He served his time. He walked me through 236 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 2: how it happened. He sees an announcement in the newspaper 237 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 2: that Patricia Hurst is getting married, and he decides she'll 238 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: make a good target. So again her address is public 239 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: or it's not that hard to find. He marches on 240 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 2: to the UC Berkeley campus and he opens up ledger 241 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: and there's her name, and there's her address. And he 242 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: and his comrades at the SLA begin plotting and scheming 243 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: the kidnap her, and they survey of her apartment and 244 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: one night in nineteen seventy four, they get through her door. 245 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: They beat up her fiance guy named Stephen wed and 246 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: they drag her down the stairs, throw her into her trunk, 247 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: and for months she's kept in a closet which the 248 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 2: SLA euphemistically describes as a people's prison, and she's sexually 249 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: assaulted by the leader of the group. And Patricia Hurst's father, 250 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: who's a newspaper publisher, very high profile, very powerful. He 251 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: agrees to donate something like two million dollars for a 252 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: food giveaway, which is the SLA's demand to release his daughter. 253 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: He does that, they don't release her, and then the 254 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: whole world is stunned to see a photograph of Patricia 255 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: Hurst with a machine gun on a surveillance camera in 256 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,359 Speaker 2: a bank. She's robbing a bank with the SLA, seemingly 257 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 2: under no coercion, but of her own free will. And 258 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: soon after she releases a tape of herself. She's now 259 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: calling herself by a revolutionary name, Tanya I believe is 260 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: the name, and she's a member. She's announcing herself as 261 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 2: a member of the SLA. So this becomes I mean, 262 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: for a while, it was the story one of the 263 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: biggest stories of the century, so one of the interesting 264 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: things I've learned doing this podcast is how many crimes 265 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: of the century are forgotten. 266 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 1: It's the same thing as the world's first serial killer. 267 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: Every time I read that, I go, no, I don't 268 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: think you're right about that. Yeah, there are a lot 269 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: of crimes of the century. Yeah. 270 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: So it's also interesting for me because I read a 271 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: lot about history and true crime, and some of these 272 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: details are real sketchy for me. I remember these cases 273 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: in the broad outlines, but I don't remember exactly what 274 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 2: happened or what the sequence was. I don't remember the outcome. 275 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: Probably I could not have told you a whole lot 276 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 2: about the outcome of the Pattyhurst case before I began 277 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: looking into it seriously. But I talked to Bill Harris, 278 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 2: and he described kidnapping her, holding her captive, and he 279 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 2: basically told me that the reason they didn't pursue stronger 280 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: charges against him is they did not want Patty Hurst 281 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: on the stand so that he would be able to 282 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: cross examiner about the activities of her so called missing 283 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: year nineteen seventy five, when she was with the SLA 284 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: and participated in some of their crimes. So what I 285 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 2: did with the podcast is I tell the story of 286 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: this period in history through two men who are at 287 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 2: the center of it. Bill Harris, the SLA kidnapper and 288 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 2: an operative, and John Oapsaw, whose mother was murdered at 289 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: a bank that was robbed by the SLA. Her name 290 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: was Murta Oapsall. She was bringing donations from her church 291 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: to the bank one day and these revolutionaries stormed in 292 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: what their guns shot and went off. She was killed, 293 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 2: and her son was at school. He was pulled out 294 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: of school and taken to the hospital where his father 295 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: was a surgeon, and tried to save his mother, who 296 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: died there. So I think it's important in doing these 297 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: cases not to forget that there are real consequences for 298 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: the victims. These consequences last a lifetime. I think it's 299 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 2: always important if it's possible to get their voices in there. 300 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: So tell me what ultimately happens. So Patty Hurst has 301 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: taken and she's with the SLA for a year, Is 302 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 1: that right? 303 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 2: I think it's like eighteen months, and she gives indications 304 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: during that time on the run with the SLA that 305 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: she's one of them. At one point, she opens fire 306 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: on a security guard at a sporting goods store in 307 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 2: Los Angeles who's trying to apprehend Bill Harris, and they're 308 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 2: hiding out in Anaheim near Disneyland. When the Los Angeles 309 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: Police Department raids the SLA hide out in LA and 310 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 2: there's this firefight and most of them die, and then 311 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 2: she's with the remnants of the SLA as they're on 312 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: the run, robbing banks and trying to stay afloat. She's 313 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: ultimately apprehended and put on trial. At first she's holding 314 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 2: on to her urban revolutionary persona. When she goes on trial, 315 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 2: she claims that she was under something called coercive persuasion 316 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: and talks about the brutality of the experience of being. 317 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: Kidnapped, sexually assaulted. 318 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: Sexually assaulted, although the prosecutors at the time challenged some 319 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: of what she said. In that area and the debate 320 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: that is always surrounded Patricia Hurst is was she a 321 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,959 Speaker 2: conscious agent or was she brainwatch? Was she a puppet 322 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 2: of the SLA or was she acting for her own reasons? 323 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: Was she acting out some kind of rebellion. That's one 324 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: of the interesting kind of unanswerable questions about the whole case. 325 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: What exactly was animating her during that period? So she 326 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: did served some time, and then she went free, and 327 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 2: she's been free for a long time. She wrote a memoir. 328 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: She married her bodyguard. 329 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: Is it Stephen Weed. He was out of the picture 330 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: once she came back. 331 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he I believe he's still alive, but yeah, 332 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 2: he was beaten up. I remember his picture appearing after 333 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 2: he was assaulted by the SLA and he's got bruises 334 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: on his face. But I think that ended their relationship. Yeah. 335 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 2: She was very young at the time too, you know, 336 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: she was a college student, maybe a little bit sheltered, 337 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: but this was a this was a case that really 338 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,399 Speaker 2: spoke to the times, and I think she became kind 339 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: of the nightmare example for parents about how far youth 340 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: rebellion during the counterculture period might go. Your kid is 341 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 2: not only rejecting your values, but actively hostile to you 342 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 2: and everything you stand for. You know, some of her 343 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 2: communicas that she released she called her parents pigs and 344 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 2: all that, fully buying into the the Marxist revolutionary rhetoric. 345 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 2: So when she was convicted, her lawyer, who was Athlee Bailey, 346 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: who had represented the Boston strangler, and no J Simpson 347 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: later right right right, he represents Patty Hurst, and he 348 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: says she was less popular than the Boston strangler Gosh 349 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 2: with the public. So that's another interesting case where the 350 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 2: crime itself becomes a portal into an interesting moment in 351 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: American history. 352 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: Is the reaction, because this is one of the first 353 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: more high profile cases of what we would say is 354 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: Stockholm syndrome, right, if that's what we believe. What was 355 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: the reaction from the public. Was it this sort of entitled, 356 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: rich young woman and acting out or was there sympathy 357 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: for her? 358 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: I think it was a mixed bag, but a lot 359 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 2: of people went with the former. I think that's the 360 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: impression it made on a lot of people, really, But 361 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 2: I do people are interested in the case. I do 362 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: recommend that you read her memoir because it takes you 363 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: inside her experience and you really begin to understand the 364 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 2: sense of helplessness that she felt. And you know, there 365 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: was a there was a movie adaptation. But I talked 366 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 2: to the screenwriter, Nick z Anne, and I asked him 367 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: about the psychology of Patricia Hurston where he came down 368 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: on the issue of was she an autonomous agent or 369 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: a conscious agent or a puppet? And he said, well, 370 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: for the purposes of the movie, he came down on 371 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,719 Speaker 2: the side of she is asserting the little bit of 372 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 2: freedom that she has available to her. Right, she's locked 373 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: in a closet, she's isolated, she's terrified, she's brutalized, and 374 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: the one little bit of autonomy she has left, the 375 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: one area where she still has a choice about her fate, 376 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: one area where she can assert herself, is by deciding 377 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 2: I'm going to be one of you. 378 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the more interesting cases happened, 379 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: you know, in the nineteen fifties with Charles Starkweather and 380 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: his young, young girlfriend at the time, and there is 381 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: still a debate happening. Was she a willing participant? He 382 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: killed at least ten people. Was she a willing participant? 383 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: Was she brainwashed? What was this? Was this Stockholm syndrome? 384 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: And so you know, this is not a new phenomenon. 385 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: But Patty Hurst, really, I mean that was sort of 386 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: the underline case for me where I really learned about that. 387 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: What's your conclusion, Kate. 388 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 1: I think that when someone is put through trauma, and 389 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: what we do know is that she was kidnapped, she 390 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: was taken against her will. Right, there doesn't seem to 391 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: be any refuting that well, what does Bill say about 392 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 1: the sexual assault? Does he concur with her that that's 393 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: what happened. 394 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 2: His position is that we were a feminist organization or 395 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 2: that we would not have done such a thing. Although 396 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: there's a part in her book. There's a part in 397 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 2: her memoir where she says he pressured me and pressured 398 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 2: me and pressured me as a good comrade to have 399 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 2: sex with him, and she did. But she describes him 400 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 2: as the most militant of the SLA members of Vain, 401 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: an angry man. So at one point he became very 402 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 2: angry with me during the conversation because I was reading 403 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: too on passages from Patricia Hurst's memoir and asking him 404 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 2: to respond to all of the stuff that she said. Yeah, 405 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: I didn't seem to like that. 406 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like one way or the other, a 407 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,479 Speaker 1: series of traumatic events happened to her, and they're admitting 408 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,159 Speaker 1: that she's locked in the closet. I mean, just for me, 409 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: I would never second guess the way somebody reacts like 410 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: that when particularly a woman being intimidated by a group. 411 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: Who am I to say how I would have reacted 412 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: to that kind of a situation. I just don't know. 413 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: I've learned so many lessons about people being wrongfully convicted 414 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: because they're put on the stand and they are awful 415 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: on the stand. There are people who are just awful 416 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: defendants even if they are innocent, and that's happened so much, 417 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: and you can't judge someone, I think by the way 418 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: they react to a trauma like that. And the truth is, 419 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: I don't know the truth, but my reaction would be 420 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: to say, this is how she's coping somehow, some way 421 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: with that, and this is not some rebellious teenager. But 422 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: I also know that the media and the public somehow 423 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: want to take wealthy people down by a peg often, 424 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: and maybe Patty Hurst was that person. I don't know, 425 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: and this was not a story I really lived through, 426 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: so it's hard to know. 427 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to talk to her, but she's moved 428 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 2: on with her life. 429 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, who could blame her, I guess at that point. Okay, 430 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: tell me about the Pentagon papers, because I feel like 431 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: this is a vague phrase that I've heard in my head. 432 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,879 Speaker 1: I think I know what we're talking about, but I 433 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: want to hear more obviously. 434 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, this is exactly where I was before I 435 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 2: started reporting on it. Which is why this is fun 436 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 2: to do. So yeah, So the Pentagon Papers were seven 437 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: thousand pages of government sponsored studies about the Vietnam War 438 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 2: and all the decisions that went into it, span multiple 439 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 2: presidential administrations, and they document the reasons that we escalated 440 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: the war and continued pouring troops in. And in nineteen 441 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: sixty nine, a man named Daniel Elsberg, who was an 442 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: advisor to the architects of the war, is working at 443 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: the Rand Corporation, a think tank in Santa Monica, and 444 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: he's had a change of heart and his conscience is 445 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 2: gnawing at him. He thinks the war is a hopeless 446 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: stalemate and he wants to do something to end it. 447 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: And so he's got top secret clearance at the Rand Corporation, 448 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 2: He's got a special safe, and he decides he is 449 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 2: going to leak these papers to anti war lawmakers. This 450 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 2: is nineteen sixty nine and Richard Nixon has taken office 451 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 2: promising to end the war with honor. But the war 452 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: keeps going on, and Daniel Elsberg decides that he is 453 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: going to take measures to stop it. So he smuggled 454 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: these seven thousand pages of top secret documents out of 455 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: his office at the RAND office in Santa Monica, and 456 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 2: he needs to photocopy them. He wants to get them 457 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: into the hands of some elected representatives who might present 458 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: them to the American people and let them know what 459 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 2: the Pentagon really thinks about the war, which is Daniel 460 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 2: Elsberg describes as a hopeless stalemate, a war that is continued, 461 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 2: among other reasons, because it would be seen as a 462 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 2: terrible humiliation to an American president to lose the war 463 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 2: in Vietnam. So he needs a photocopy machine because this 464 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 2: is nineteen sixty nine and not every office as a 465 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: xerox like we do now. So he turns to a 466 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: friend whose name is Linda Senay. She has an ad 467 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 2: agency above a flower shop on Melrose. They go to 468 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: a waffle shop and he tells her, listen, I need 469 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 2: the use of your copy machine. This could end the war. 470 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 2: And she agrees, and night after night for weeks they 471 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 2: go to her ad agency, her copy machine, and they 472 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: copy all these top secret documents. Linda Seney now goes 473 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 2: by the name Linda Resnik. She's the billionaire businesswoman behind 474 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 2: Palm Wonderful and Fiji Water and all these others, all 475 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: these other companies we've heard about, but at the time 476 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, she played a key role in disseminating 477 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: the Pentagon papers. So eventually Daniel Ellsberg slips these papers 478 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: to the New York Times. They publish a big series. 479 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 2: The Nixon administration is outraged, and Richard Dixon decides that 480 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: he needs to plug the leaks, and he launches the Plumbers, 481 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 2: which is the notorious group of operatives that breaks into 482 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: Daniel Ellsberg's psychiastris offtist looking for dirt on him. Later, 483 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: Nixon's guys, of course, break into the Watergate, and part 484 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 2: of the cover up that wound up sinking the Nixon 485 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: administration involved trying to cover up the break in of 486 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 2: Ellsburg's psychiatrist's office. So, in a very real way, the 487 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: theft of those papers led to Nixon's disgrace and resignation. 488 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: Now a lot of people remember the Pentagon Papers from 489 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: maybe the Steven Spielberg movie. Well, he focused on the 490 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: Washington Post, although they weren't the ones who originally got it, 491 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 2: But it was about the newspapers publishing these papers and 492 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 2: the fight at the Supreme Court against the Nixon administration, 493 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: whof wanted to stop publication. So people remember the case, 494 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: especially if you've gone to journalism school, as you know, 495 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: one of the landmark freedom of the press cases. But 496 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: what people forget is that there was an actual criminal 497 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: trial here in Los Angeles in federal court where Daniel 498 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: Ellsberg and his friend Anthony Russo did it with him, 499 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 2: were tried under the Espionage Act. And I interviewed one 500 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: of the lawyers who represent at the time, and I 501 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: interviewed the man who went on to be a prominent 502 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: lawyer who was an assistant at the time helping on 503 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: the case. Daniel Elsberg died a couple of years ago, 504 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: so I couldn't talk to him. But what wrapped the 505 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 2: case for the government was the Nixon administration attempting overtures 506 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: to the federal judge who was presiding over it. Nixon's 507 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: men approached the judge, Matt Byrne, and said, Hey, would 508 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 2: you like to be the head of the FBI. And 509 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 2: Ellsberg's lawyers found out about this in front of the 510 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 2: judge who was forced to throw out the case. And 511 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: it's incredible that all of this history is somehow now 512 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: little known or little remembered. But it's one of the 513 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: fun things about doing these stories is one of these 514 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: is a portal on history if you look deep enough. 515 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: Well, one of the things I wanted to ask you 516 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: was you were I would say, best known for Dirty John, 517 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: which was turned into was a series? Right? Was it 518 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: a TV series or a movie? 519 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 2: It was a TV series. 520 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you did a very deep dive on one story. 521 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: So is this a big shift for you. I know 522 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: that you work for the La Times and you've you know, 523 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: done shorter stories before, but for this podcast, now you're 524 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: dipping into one story that you have to wrap up 525 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,479 Speaker 1: in a certain period of time because you're moving on 526 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: the next day. 527 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's definitely a change of pace for me. But 528 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: I also like the immediacy of it. I mean I 529 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 2: did three long form narrative podcasts after Dirty John. I 530 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: did one called Detective Trap, which I think was five 531 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 2: or six episodes about an Anaheim police detective tracking down 532 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: serial killers. And then I did one called The Trials 533 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: or Frank Carson, which is about a defense attorney in Modesto, 534 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 2: California who's put on trial for murder and it becomes 535 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 2: one of the longest criminal trials in American history. I 536 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: was very proud of that one. But those are all long, 537 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: long efforts and long story lines. I think of them 538 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: kind of as audio nonfiction novels. Yeah, absolutely, with multiple characters, 539 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 2: multiple plot lines and A stories, B stories, C stories. Yeah, 540 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 2: they're very difficult and complicated to do, and not very 541 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 2: many stories lend themselves to that treatment. 542 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be very picky about the ones 543 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: that you choose for those and it's not necessarily the 544 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: number of murders. It's the quality, not the quantity, I think. 545 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: And it's very difficult to figure out what's going to 546 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: work over six episodes. I tell my students set all 547 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: the time, and they'll listen not to you, but they'll 548 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: listen to other podcasts and they'll say, this is ten 549 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: minutes too long here or why are they? And I said, well, 550 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,040 Speaker 1: six episodes is a lot. And sometimes when you make 551 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: that kind of a commitment, you have to figure out 552 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: where your music goes a little longer, or your interview goes, 553 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, thirty seconds longer than you normally would have it. 554 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: So it is a challenge. And I'm sure you do 555 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: like the brevity of these stories. You get right to it, 556 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: you get the exciting bits. You know, it's one basic 557 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: narrative arc, you know, because it's one episode, so I'm 558 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: sure it's much easier for you to contain and probably 559 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 1: in a different way very satisfying. 560 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: Yes, it's difficult in its own way, though, because you 561 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: need to find the sources for every episode afresh, and 562 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: that's that's sometimes tricky. I'm curious, though, given that you 563 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 2: teach podcasting and you study, you study the medium, in 564 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 2: what ways do you think these long form serials are 565 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: going astray? 566 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: What we look at is the victim blaming aspect of it. 567 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,479 Speaker 1: We also look at the ethics of concentrating too much 568 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: on the killer and glorifying it. I have interviewed some folks, 569 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: not on this show, but in other instances where I 570 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: sort of felt like they were going a little overboard 571 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: on how great the serial killer is, and that really 572 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: repulses me. And so we talk a little bit about that. 573 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: And one thing that I thought I appreciated about Dirty 574 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: John was the balance that you had. You had his family, 575 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,959 Speaker 1: but also you spoke of course to Deborah and her 576 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: two daughters, and so there's there's a really good balance there. 577 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: And I always say that's what we're looking for. Yes, 578 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: people come to the show oftentimes to hear what's going 579 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: on in this whack job's mind. Who is, you know, 580 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: killing people or assaulting people or just creating all of 581 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: this mayhem like John did. But at the same time, 582 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: we're also trying to honor the victims, who should be 583 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: elevated in my opinion, as much as the killer, and 584 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: I think we struggle with that in this genre. I 585 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: think any yahoo can take a certain amount of money 586 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: and put up a podcast and go knock on Gabby 587 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: Patito's parents door for a comment when they're not a journalist, 588 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: they're not an attorney, you know, they're not a professional. 589 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's really disconcerting to me. We 590 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: have a lot of people who don't really have any 591 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: kind of training at all about how to handle families, 592 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they're handling families and 593 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: there's no attorney there, there's no repercussions. And sometimes I 594 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: can find an audience that says, great, I'm looking for 595 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: that exclusive. It doesn't matter how you get it, you know, 596 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, do you feel like that or Mike. 597 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,879 Speaker 2: Oh no, I mean I agree with you one hundred percent. 598 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: In terms of taking the focus off the killers, the 599 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 2: serial killers in particular. I mean I made a decision 600 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 2: long ago that the psychology of sadism was not going 601 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: to be my Baileywick. You know, I've met enough of 602 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 2: these guys that they're not as interesting to me as 603 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: as they might be to other people. They're not Hannibal elector. 604 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 2: By that, I mean a lot of them just don't 605 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 2: have that much insight into what they do or why 606 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 2: they do it. And they're not particularly interesting in a 607 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: lot of ways, right, you know, to the extent they 608 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 2: have reasons. But for instance, the second long podcast I did, 609 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: Detective Trap, involves a serial killer named Stephen Gordon. He 610 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: abducted and murdered a bunch of women who were involved 611 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 2: in prostitution in Santa Anna and Garden Grove here in 612 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 2: Orange County. At one point is investigator came up to 613 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 2: me after trial and said, Hey, Gordon wants to talk 614 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: to you at the county jail. Wants to go see you. 615 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 2: So I went to see him. Of course, it was 616 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: a mix up. He actually wanted to see the guy 617 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 2: from the other newspaper. I had a few minutes to 618 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: talk to him, and I said, well, maybe I'll find 619 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 2: out something about him, and I asked him why he 620 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 2: did it, and he said, I was angry. What do 621 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 2: you mean you were angry? Why did you kill those women? 622 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 2: I was angry you didn't know them. Why were you 623 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 2: angry at him? I was angry at my probation officer, 624 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: my parole officer, because of the restrictions they're putting on me. Like, 625 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 2: what do you do with that answer? Does i't give 626 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: you any insight at all into him? Do you want 627 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 2: to spend six hours inside that guy's brain to what end? 628 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 2: For what profit? 629 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: Right? I agree? I mean, I've read a couple of 630 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: different books from, you know, the FBI folks who interviewed 631 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: Bundy and Edmund Kemper, and the things that they learned 632 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: from those two men were significant. I remember reading from Kemper, 633 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: who was known as the co ed Killer, one of 634 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: the worst monikers I've heard. You know, he said that 635 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: a lot of killers go back to the scene of 636 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: the crime to relive it all. They didn't know that before. 637 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: And Tud Bundy said, you know, there are people out 638 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 1: there who are much smarter than I am. You even 639 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,439 Speaker 1: haven't you think I'm smart? You should see these other 640 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: people out there. You know who you haven't even caught yet. 641 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: So I definitely think that there is value, and I 642 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: know that's what people are interested in too. I think 643 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: there's value in learning about the killers. But like I said, 644 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: there's a bounce. Listen. You know, I said I have 645 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: had enough. I was talking to someone the other day 646 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: and I said, I've had enough of some of these cases. 647 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even tell you how many times 648 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: I've read about John Benet Ramsey and new things. And 649 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: then I said to the person, but full disclosure on 650 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: the other tab of what I'm watching right now, I'm 651 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: going to click over as soon as I'm done with 652 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: you and watch the new John Benet Ramsey Netflix. So 653 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: what does that say about me? It's a new thing. 654 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to watch it, just like I watched the 655 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: Gabby Patito that came out, and I think, I don't 656 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: know if you had watched that story on Netflix. What 657 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: blew me away about that case that I wish we 658 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 1: had with all of them was the sheer amount of 659 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: information that we have about Gabby Patito. I have never 660 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: seen a murder victim who I now feel like I 661 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: know so much about because of the credible mass amount 662 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 1: of social media, the text messages, the letters, the family, 663 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: everything she posted. I wish we had that about everybody, 664 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you feel the same way too. I 665 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: wish we had but material for the victims, because I 666 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: do think that would change things in some way. You know. 667 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 2: So I haven't followed the Gabby Patito case that closely. 668 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: What ultimately happened there according to what you. 669 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: Know, Well, you know, Gabby Patito goes missing and it 670 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: is a massive I think it was twenty twenty one, 671 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: summer of twenty twenty one, and it is a massive 672 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: social media, you know, explosion because there's this clear and 673 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: present danger. She's with her boyfriend, Brian Laundry and they're 674 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, driving in a van, and the clear and 675 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: present danger is where's this young woman and where is 676 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 1: the van? And he shows up in Florida and he's 677 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: not with Gabby, and it all, you know, ends up 678 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: coming to a head where ultimately, I believe it's some 679 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: folks who are on YouTube who were driving by and 680 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: spotted the van and told the FBI about it, and 681 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,239 Speaker 1: they were eventually able to locate her. And before they 682 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: could even question Brian, you know, he goes into a 683 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: wooded area and takes his own life ultimately and leaves 684 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: a journal that has a confession of sorts. I would 685 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: not call it a real confession, but it's a confession 686 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: of sorts, but it created this fervor because she had 687 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: so much information out there. You can watch videos. I 688 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 1: mean you really, especially after this series, you really feel 689 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 1: like you know her and you're connected to her. And 690 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,439 Speaker 1: I think I wish I could do that with every 691 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: single person I talked to, and I'm sure you do too. 692 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: And I think you do a great job in Dirty 693 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 1: John where we really do hear from the women, particularly 694 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 1: of this story a lot. And when now I'm working 695 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: in historical crime as you are with your series, you can't, 696 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have all of that. So I 697 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: think it's interesting how we can navigate that and make 698 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: the audience understand how important it is to hear the 699 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: victims stories and their family stories. 700 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 2: Right. I totally agree, And for a reporter as well 701 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 2: as for police, social media has kind of been a 702 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: bonanza because people are posting their thoughts in text and 703 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: on social media messaging. You can chronicle their lives day 704 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: by day and week by week in a way that 705 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 2: you could not have twenty thirty years ago. 706 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: So will you go back to a long form series 707 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: or are you now completely enraptured by the short that's 708 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: get it done and be done and move on to 709 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 1: another decade. 710 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 2: No. I like the long form stuff, but you really 711 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 2: have to find a story that allows you to do it. 712 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 2: My attention span isn't what it used to be. If 713 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: you're going to get me to commit to six or 714 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,320 Speaker 2: seven hours as a listener, it better be really interesting. 715 00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 2: And I'm not going to impose six or seven hours 716 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: on my listeners unless I have a damn good story 717 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 2: that has enough going for it that they'll listen all 718 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 2: the way through, and those are few and far between. 719 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 2: They're not that easy to find. 720 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: I agree, and I'm interested in what your checklist is. 721 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: I have a checklist for books, specifically, a little list 722 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,839 Speaker 1: that has to every little item has to be checked 723 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: off in order for me to be willing to write 724 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: the book right. One is it's got to be a 725 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: time period that I'm really interested in, which for me 726 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,399 Speaker 1: is pre nineteen sixties. Essentially. It has to be an 727 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: area where I want to spend some time both literally 728 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: doing the research and actually digging into the history of it, 729 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: people who I find compelling. Of course, the crime that 730 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 1: I find interesting, and certainly that today relevance. Why does 731 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: an audience care now about this kind of story. And 732 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: the most important thing for me, which is just a 733 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 1: shit ton of sources. I have to have a lot 734 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: of primary sources. Even my oldest the book that just 735 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: came out for me is from eighteen thirty two, and 736 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: I had a huge amount of sources from that. 737 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 2: What's that one about. 738 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: It's called The Sinner's All Bow. It just came out 739 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 1: in January, and it's about a woman named Sarah Maria 740 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: Cornell who was found hanging in New England from a 741 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: haystack poll on a desolate farm. You know, she had 742 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,920 Speaker 1: said to her doctor several months before that she was pregnant, 743 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 1: and she blamed a Methodist minister for sexually assaulting her 744 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: and getting her pregnant. And then just this unwinds into 745 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: a story of the first true crime narrative book that 746 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: was written in the United States, and I'm working with 747 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: this journalist from eighteen seventy two about it, and then 748 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: it was her story was the inspiration for Nathaniel Hawthorne's 749 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: Hester Prynne in the Scarlet Letter. But a lot of 750 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 1: it is just the heroes in the story are women, 751 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: and the villains are absolutely women in the story. Just 752 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: her character was raked over the Coles just to get 753 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: this guy out of a murder case. 754 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: That is fascinating. We all read the Scarlett Letter in 755 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 2: high school. I actually did not know that there was 756 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:05,200 Speaker 2: a real life case that inspired it. 757 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: And I think that that story, again, the reverberations through 758 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: history is what always is powerful for me, because there 759 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: are Sarah Maria Cornell's They're pregnant and she ends up 760 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 1: dead after demanding child support essentially from this Methodist minister 761 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: in the eighteen thirties, and this is just a story 762 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,480 Speaker 1: that happens over and over again. So what is your checklist? 763 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: Because I know what mine is. What is for a 764 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 1: long form? What are the things that really make you excited? 765 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: Is it that everyone is on board and it doesn't 766 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,240 Speaker 1: particularly matter what the murder is or what's your number 767 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: one thing? Do you think the deal breaker? If you 768 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:39,279 Speaker 1: can't get it, I'm not doing it. 769 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 2: You need a story with some underlying questions. It's better 770 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,319 Speaker 2: if it's a question you can't really answer, because then 771 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 2: you can have people reflect on the mystery. Maybe it's 772 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 2: a psychological mystery. 773 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 774 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,920 Speaker 2: And I've written four books, three or four. I think 775 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 2: three of them have been published. It's a big commitment. 776 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 2: It's four years of your life. You have to really 777 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 2: care about the subject. You have to believe in it 778 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 2: when nobody else does. It really has to speak to 779 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 2: some burning curiosity in you. Otherwise it's not worth it 780 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 2: if you add up the advances you get for your books, 781 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 2: at least if you're me and you calculate the hours 782 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 2: that you spend on it. It's not financially that's smart inactivity. No, 783 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 2: But you do it because you have a compulsion and 784 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 2: because you have to, because you can't not do it. 785 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 2: So you got to pick a story that you can't 786 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 2: not need to tell. 787 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 788 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 789 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,160 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There are 790 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,000 Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More 791 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and 792 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: give them listen if you haven't already. This has been 793 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis m. Morosi. 794 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed 795 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by 796 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:20,279 Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and 797 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app, 798 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked 799 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: Words on Instagram at tenfold more Wicked, and on Facebook 800 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 1: at Wicked Words Pod