Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio Hannah. Hannah Gadsby, Hello Hillary, Is that what I
Speaker 1: called you? Or is it Madame Secretary? Or Hillary? Is
Speaker 1: my name? Hilly Billy, Hilly Billy. I will not call
Speaker 1: you that, of course, now that you have it in
Speaker 1: your head, you'll never forget it. It's true. And no William,
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well yeah, I've been calling a lot worse,
Speaker 1: as have you. So I'm Hillary Clinton and this is
Speaker 1: you and Me Both on today's episode. I'm talking to
Speaker 1: one of my favorite comedians. Though in my mind, she's
Speaker 1: much more than a comedian. She's also a provocative thinker
Speaker 1: who challenges her audiences to do some serious thinking too.
Speaker 1: Like many people, I first discovered Hannah Gadsby in eighteen
Speaker 1: when I saw her breakout Netflix comedy special Nannette. That
Speaker 1: show was a huge success, earning Hannah an Emmy and
Speaker 1: a Peabody Award, which game as a surprise to her because,
Speaker 1: as she puts it, Nanette is arguably the most deliberately miserable,
Speaker 1: unfunny hour of comedy ever made. If you haven't seen
Speaker 1: it yet, the special begins with Hannah's trademark dry humor,
Speaker 1: with self deprecating jokes about her appearance and about the
Speaker 1: sexism and gender based violence she experienced in her life,
Speaker 1: particularly growing up in Tasmania, the very conservative part of
Speaker 1: Australia where she lived then. And this is a spoiler,
Speaker 1: Hannah tells us she's quitting comedy because she no longer
Speaker 1: wants to be party to a form of entertainment where
Speaker 1: she introduces audiences to her trauma and then re traumatizes
Speaker 1: herself by inviting us to laugh about it. As an example,
Speaker 1: she shares the story of coming out as gay to
Speaker 1: her mother because the response to me coming out when
Speaker 1: first told her that I was a little bit lesbian
Speaker 1: byby steps, her response. Her response was this, She's just gone, Oh, Hannah,
Speaker 1: why did you have to tell me that that's not
Speaker 1: something I to know? I mean, what if I told
Speaker 1: you I was a murderer. It is pretty funny, but
Speaker 1: as she points out, it's also very painful. Luckily for us,
Speaker 1: Hannah did not quit comedy. Instead, she found a way
Speaker 1: of doing it that does not require her to inflict
Speaker 1: pain on herself or anyone else who's been victimized in
Speaker 1: the ways that she has in Hannah released another Netflix
Speaker 1: special called Douglas, which touches on a range of topics
Speaker 1: from the patriarchy to anti vax ER's, her haters, her
Speaker 1: own diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder or a s D,
Speaker 1: which she received in and she's got a memoir coming
Speaker 1: out right now called Ten Steps. Tune in net, Welcome
Speaker 1: Hannah to the show. I am so happy to be
Speaker 1: talking to you, but first I got to ask you.
Speaker 1: I heard you broke your leg, real doozy. I fell
Speaker 1: over walking in Iceland. Yeah, well, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: ice in Iceland. They're not lying. It's on the label
Speaker 1: very nice, nice healthcare system there. I had emergency surgery
Speaker 1: and they looked after me. Great, have you done the
Speaker 1: physical therapy that you've got to do in order to
Speaker 1: get your strength back? Well, I've got to wait for
Speaker 1: it to heal. So yeah, I've just had surgery. Can
Speaker 1: you get back off a bit like I've caught plates
Speaker 1: and screws in? Well? I can? I can move the foot? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I broke my elbow about to I don't remember. Two
Speaker 1: thousand and nine a long time ago. And you didn't
Speaker 1: do the exercise it did? Oh? No, I did? I
Speaker 1: did because I was I was scared out of my
Speaker 1: mind that if I didn't, but I have like plates
Speaker 1: and you know all that stuff, and I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it takes a while, but you've got to do the
Speaker 1: exercises when they clear you to do it. So that's
Speaker 1: that's my that's my physical therapy advice for the day.
Speaker 1: And this is not what I expected, but I will
Speaker 1: take it well. I was so excited to talk with
Speaker 1: you because I have been a fan. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: how you literally have approached not just your comedy, but
Speaker 1: I guess your life in a way that kind of
Speaker 1: shares it with the rest of us. And in it
Speaker 1: seemed to me from afar that your life was turned
Speaker 1: upside down because your stand up special, and then that
Speaker 1: was released on Netflix, which is where I saw it.
Speaker 1: People around the world like me met you for the
Speaker 1: first time. And since then, you've put out another Netflix
Speaker 1: special called Douglas. You're soon get hit the road once
Speaker 1: your leg gets prepared and ready to do your new
Speaker 1: show called Body of Work. You've also gotten married, another
Speaker 1: big life event, and you've got a memoir coming out.
Speaker 1: Holy moly, I mean, you have been one busy person.
Speaker 1: How has your life changed and how if you can
Speaker 1: describe how you feel about all this, because I mean,
Speaker 1: was not that long ago, and so much has happened since. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot happened in my life, and then a lot
Speaker 1: happened globally that has nothing to do with me. So
Speaker 1: it's how to get a measure on what has become
Speaker 1: my life when the whole world has been turned upside down.
Speaker 1: That's true. But for that brief window where I was
Speaker 1: the center of the universe, it was a bit shocking.
Speaker 1: I went like, because before this Netflix special dropped, I
Speaker 1: would have classed myself as a successful comedian. I was
Speaker 1: earning money. I was a living wage, which is not
Speaker 1: something I've had before comedy b C as we like
Speaker 1: to say. And I was regularly touring Australia in the UK,
Speaker 1: so you know, Americans would not have heard of me,
Speaker 1: but that does not preclude my existence. So the Netflix
Speaker 1: special just put me up into this model of success
Speaker 1: that was not something I was prepared for, mostly because
Speaker 1: you just look out there and you just don't see
Speaker 1: someone like me. And I say fair enough as well,
Speaker 1: like I'm not everyone's cup of tea, you know, I know,
Speaker 1: I'm a typical and not riddled with enthusiasm, and I
Speaker 1: feel like that's what really gets you some success. So
Speaker 1: I ran the analytics, and I didn't think I'd be
Speaker 1: successful on on a global stage, and so I just
Speaker 1: sat back and sat in my lane and did my work,
Speaker 1: and I felt very disorientating to be you know, what
Speaker 1: was the trickiest thing is famous people knowing who I was. Like,
Speaker 1: it's one thing for a lot of you know, people
Speaker 1: who I would say, I like me knowing who I was,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's weird. But for famous people to
Speaker 1: know who I am, I'm not the best person for
Speaker 1: that because I don't always know who people are. So
Speaker 1: I am just a faux pa waiting to happen. I'm
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, and I'm really and we're so thrilled to
Speaker 1: heavy on the spot. But you know, you grew up
Speaker 1: in a place that I haven't yet visited, but I
Speaker 1: you know, really been fascinated by for a very long
Speaker 1: time called Tasmania. Uh what do you know about Tesmania?
Speaker 1: Here's what given I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what
Speaker 1: I know and then and you can tell me how
Speaker 1: wrong I am. It's a big island part of Australia,
Speaker 1: but off the coast of Australia there are things called
Speaker 1: the Tasmanian Devils. It's somewhat sparsely populated. It is both
Speaker 1: agricultural and I guess you know, fishing and things like that.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, but it's also stark, and it's somewhat isolating
Speaker 1: and quite conservative. That's what I know about it. You
Speaker 1: did read my book, Yeah, it's it's um it's so
Speaker 1: of like if you threw New Zealand into a gothic nightmare. Um.
Speaker 1: I love Tasmania. I am from there. I grew up there.
Speaker 1: It's all I knew for a very long time. But
Speaker 1: the Tasmania that exists now is different to the one
Speaker 1: that I grew up in. And I think that's a
Speaker 1: really important point to make because it, like me, has
Speaker 1: evolved and it's quite easy for a single person to
Speaker 1: mature and grow up, but it's actually quite difficult for
Speaker 1: a culture to mature and grow up in a short
Speaker 1: space of time. And what did that was the gay
Speaker 1: law reform that took place in the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 1: It was fierce and it reached the global stage. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, we might have made the New York Times once.
Speaker 1: Um it was a really intense sort of conflation of
Speaker 1: my own identity and my home's identity, because at that
Speaker 1: time it was it was fiercely homophobic and proudly so,
Speaker 1: and it was like, this is who we are, and
Speaker 1: I was learning that that's who I was. And so
Speaker 1: I was a debatable citizen in the most sort of
Speaker 1: really vulnerable time of my life. And there's all sorts
Speaker 1: of terrible things to talk about in that story, but
Speaker 1: you could cut also to the positive headline that Tasmania
Speaker 1: has some of the strongest human rights protections in Australian.
Speaker 1: You know, I can't claim the world. It's a big place,
Speaker 1: but I think we learned as a as a community
Speaker 1: that we didn't like being divided like that, we didn't
Speaker 1: like being painted as an accepting and you know this
Speaker 1: sturely pockets still there, but as a as a whole,
Speaker 1: I feel safe going back home where I never did before. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's a long and dark history, but there is
Speaker 1: that at the end of it. Well, I really like
Speaker 1: the way you talk about it evolving because I know
Speaker 1: that you know in the net when you talk about
Speaker 1: your childhood and and how you first saw what you
Speaker 1: call your people when you watch the Sydney Gay and
Speaker 1: Lesbian Mardi Gras, and you saw people having a great
Speaker 1: time and partying. And you know, you have a great
Speaker 1: line where you say, well where do the quiet gays?
Speaker 1: God always, I've never been to mad I just looks
Speaker 1: a bit much. I'm very proud, but well, I just
Speaker 1: have this image of you as as a young girl,
Speaker 1: young woman in Tasmania and like so many other lgbt
Speaker 1: Q kids, all of a sudden, not feeling alone, even
Speaker 1: though it was just through a TV screen. It's one
Speaker 1: of those It's a student of history. This this golds
Speaker 1: me the most is each generation we have to prove
Speaker 1: that we exist. And I am a student of history.
Speaker 1: I know we've always existed. You just have to not
Speaker 1: have the biases that blind you to that existence. And
Speaker 1: right now it's happening to trans kids and gender quick kids,
Speaker 1: and honestly that's where I am on the spectrum. I
Speaker 1: have gender queer, but we didn't have the language when
Speaker 1: I was growing up. So the bonus of not having languages,
Speaker 1: you don't have the vitriol on the other side of
Speaker 1: the language, and that's what we're going through now. I
Speaker 1: feel a real sense of urgency about what I can
Speaker 1: see happening now. I feel very also helpless because what's
Speaker 1: happening to trans kids, particularly in the US, but also
Speaker 1: in Australia, in the UK IS and elsewhere. My sure,
Speaker 1: but it's now a hot topic. It's being it's a
Speaker 1: plaything for people who want to motivate hatred in order
Speaker 1: to generate votes and clicks. It's really toxic, and it's
Speaker 1: become you know, they're dividing families that you know, even
Speaker 1: running laws that parents and teachers who help trans kids
Speaker 1: performing some kind of child abuse. And it's just like,
Speaker 1: we can't solve the riddle of gender, but we can
Speaker 1: be decent to our children. You know, doing untold damage
Speaker 1: to trans kids and also kids who aren't you know,
Speaker 1: kids who are burgeoning transphobs. We are doing damage to
Speaker 1: them because you know, we're teaching kids that it's okay
Speaker 1: to exclude. And really, if we're going to get through
Speaker 1: climate change, we need everyone. We're taking a quick break.
Speaker 1: Stay with us now. I want to tell you a
Speaker 1: story about a terrible conversation I had at the dog park.
Speaker 1: One this bloke just walks up to me. I mean,
Speaker 1: he had a dog. He wasn't just being creepy. Had context,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to tell you this, it's not
Speaker 1: pertinent to the story, but I want you to know
Speaker 1: his dog had shoes on, and his dog did not
Speaker 1: want to have shoes on because he's doing that like
Speaker 1: and it was a whippet situation. And they're shaking at
Speaker 1: the best of times. So we don't know why are
Speaker 1: they cold? Are they nervous? We don't know. But it
Speaker 1: was like just it was lot. Now it's not important
Speaker 1: to the story, but it was a lot in my periphery.
Speaker 1: So I just want you to know added stress. Now,
Speaker 1: this was my friend's icebreaker. We've never met. This was
Speaker 1: his icebreaker. He said, did you know it takes less
Speaker 1: muscles to smile than brown. Now, the men in the
Speaker 1: audience are sitting there going, oh, you've experienced an isolated incident.
Speaker 1: When the women are sitting there going oh, the Fox
Speaker 1: safe and non binary folks are like, is that a
Speaker 1: hard day for you? Isn't That's a clip from your
Speaker 1: Netflix special, Douglas. The other thing that you have talked
Speaker 1: about as you were diagnosed with autism a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and you actually have said that the day you were
Speaker 1: diagnosed was a very good day. How would you explain that? Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, the process of going from hunch to diagnosis
Speaker 1: was quite exhilarating because as I researched it, parts of
Speaker 1: myself just fell into place and it's like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: I make sense suddenly. Um. In fact, coming to terms
Speaker 1: with my atypical thinking was even more profound than coming
Speaker 1: to terms with my sexuality, because ultimately your sexuality is
Speaker 1: it's not a large part of your day to day,
Speaker 1: whereas the way you think is pretty much always there.
Speaker 1: So learning that I was never going to get to
Speaker 1: the starting line of normal I say that in air quotes,
Speaker 1: sort of gave me a bit of a breather, Like
Speaker 1: I've been treading water my entire life, just trying to
Speaker 1: work out what was important and ignoring what was actually
Speaker 1: important to me, which put a lot of stress on
Speaker 1: my central nervous system. But the flip side of that was,
Speaker 1: after that relief came a lot of greed because it
Speaker 1: was almost so simple a click, this understanding that oh
Speaker 1: you think differently, and I can just deal with that.
Speaker 1: But I just also feel like, in this conversation about
Speaker 1: autism and neuro divergence. There's still a lot of shame
Speaker 1: around it because it's not always an easy existence. So
Speaker 1: are you choking to death? I'm not choking to death.
Speaker 1: I'm trying not to cough through this incredible description. Yeah
Speaker 1: you did? You did? Yeah? Look, I mean the body
Speaker 1: knows the score. You did? You broken up? Sorry? Sorry? Um?
Speaker 1: Where was I? Where was I? Was I talking about
Speaker 1: anything interesting? Oh? Yes, grief? Because you know there's this
Speaker 1: shame that is being projected onto the names and the
Speaker 1: labels of a s D, and because you know at
Speaker 1: the end is disorder like that is always the thing.
Speaker 1: But you know, if you look at the more sort
Speaker 1: of holistically, how can you prove that there is a
Speaker 1: right way for our central nerves the system to operate
Speaker 1: and what you know what sparks up and individual's central
Speaker 1: nervous system. We don't have a grip on it. We're
Speaker 1: still the sciences very active. So as individuals, we don't
Speaker 1: get to solve that. All we get to do is
Speaker 1: do the best we can. And we have enough information
Speaker 1: now to know that not all kids are the same.
Speaker 1: Alert Let's make sure everybody hears out and it's not
Speaker 1: just the way we look like it's just on a
Speaker 1: very fundamental level, information in and information out is different,
Speaker 1: and for too long, particularly girls and any other not boys,
Speaker 1: it's seen as character flaws, and that compounds the shame
Speaker 1: and the stress of it, because it's like a boy
Speaker 1: not talking, it's like, you know, he's a strong, silent
Speaker 1: type having interesting thoughts, whereas a girl that becomes sulky,
Speaker 1: then it's just a simple A seed is that and
Speaker 1: that snowballs. But I think the beauty of a lot
Speaker 1: of people on the spectrum, there's lot of trauma that
Speaker 1: we have to exist through because the world is not
Speaker 1: built for us and the world doesn't really accommodate our
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, which is is not direct. But I'm
Speaker 1: surrounded by stories that prioritize neurotypical experiences of the world.
Speaker 1: So I have a great understanding and appreciation for neurotypical experience,
Speaker 1: and it is typical for a reason. But I think
Speaker 1: it's time for neurotypical people to not pity or for fear,
Speaker 1: but sort of try and learn the language. It's about humanizing.
Speaker 1: We're very we're devastatingly simple. People Just talk to us
Speaker 1: about what we're interested in, and you're ours forever, like
Speaker 1: where were your puppy dogs? Well, you mentioned the word trauma,
Speaker 1: and you've gone through a lot in your life, and
Speaker 1: now you've got a new book coming out, Ten Steps
Speaker 1: to Nanat, a new one. It's my only one, it's
Speaker 1: your own, you one, your first. Also, I should just
Speaker 1: clean something up. Sorry to dropped, but um, I to
Speaker 1: regret that every time I say it. But anyway, I
Speaker 1: can't speak for everyone on spectrum, and it's a spectrum
Speaker 1: for a reason, So just totally get that. And and
Speaker 1: I do think it's important to emphasize that there is
Speaker 1: diversity on the spectrum, just like there is in every
Speaker 1: other aspect of human life and experience. But you know,
Speaker 1: we now know so much more about what trauma does
Speaker 1: to the body. You know literally how it affects you
Speaker 1: know how people feel and think and almost physically your
Speaker 1: body reacts. So how have you figured out a way
Speaker 1: to process trauma? I asked, And really, you know you
Speaker 1: don't expect an answer. Well, I do expect some kind
Speaker 1: of an answer because I do think that finally people
Speaker 1: are recognizing what trauma does to a person. The way
Speaker 1: out of trauma is is a complicated path, and it's
Speaker 1: not ever, the way into trauma is is very quick,
Speaker 1: it could be a momentum. The way out of trauma
Speaker 1: is rarely as simple, and I think, I think the
Speaker 1: emphasis on the individual to get themselves out of trauma
Speaker 1: is criminal because you can't achieve a sense of safety
Speaker 1: without the community within which you live. You know, understanding
Speaker 1: that you felt unsafe and have an invested interest in
Speaker 1: your feeling safe. So just understanding that you can appreciate
Speaker 1: why there are great numbers of communities who are existing
Speaker 1: in cyclical trauma, because time and time again, their governments
Speaker 1: let them know that they're not safe. I have emerged
Speaker 1: on the other side of my trauma. I took a
Speaker 1: punt with my show a Nette. It was a working
Speaker 1: theory that if I shared it honestly and in a
Speaker 1: controlled environment, and I felt like I could control the
Speaker 1: stand up comedy arena, you know, three people at a
Speaker 1: time in the same room, I was going to force
Speaker 1: them to sit in my all my sort of distress,
Speaker 1: in all its all its charm, that being you know anger, fear,
Speaker 1: and you know vulnerability, if you want to use that
Speaker 1: old chestnut, and I didn't think it would pay off.
Speaker 1: I thought by doing that, I would reduce my audience,
Speaker 1: but reduce it to a number that felt safer to me.
Speaker 1: But what actually happened was surprising, as my audience got
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and something and what I was saying
Speaker 1: that was cathartic people having conversations after my show, you know,
Speaker 1: families would go in and then you know, I got
Speaker 1: so many notes from people saying we had conversation the
Speaker 1: we need to have. You know, that made me feel
Speaker 1: part of a community, and that made me feel safer,
Speaker 1: not the fact that I got this thing off my chest.
Speaker 1: It was not a void. You know, we all knew
Speaker 1: that these things happened to people all the time, but
Speaker 1: we just don't talk about it because we get stuck
Speaker 1: on the trauma loop and what happens after is so
Speaker 1: much more important. We need to show that people can
Speaker 1: recover from trauma. We need to show that it's a battle.
Speaker 1: We need help, But it's not a drain worth circling.
Speaker 1: Terrible things happen to people all the time, and it's
Speaker 1: not resilience pawn because it's a community effort. I will
Speaker 1: not stand as a person I've nailed this. I don't
Speaker 1: know what it is about what I did that helped
Speaker 1: me through this. They did so many different things, but
Speaker 1: one of the main things is I felt connected. You know.
Speaker 1: That really corresponds with everything that I know or that
Speaker 1: I've heard about how people can work through their trauma
Speaker 1: because they find a safe space and they find a community.
Speaker 1: And you mentioned how families would have conversations after seeing
Speaker 1: you in your stand up routine talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: the disappointments and the attacks and the physical abuse and
Speaker 1: everything that you experienced. What about your own family and
Speaker 1: particularly your mom, because I know you've talked about some
Speaker 1: of the you know, quite hurtful things that she would
Speaker 1: say to you when you were younger and when you
Speaker 1: did come out. How has that relationship evolved. Well, I
Speaker 1: think it's evolved because I've matured and I can see.
Speaker 1: My mother was in an impossible position. She was trying
Speaker 1: to raise children in a intolerant place, and the active
Speaker 1: conversation happening around her was one of intolerance. What do
Speaker 1: you do like? You know? So she did the best
Speaker 1: she could. Sometimes it came out sideways and was painful,
Speaker 1: but ultimately she walked of an almost impossible line. But
Speaker 1: she did it, and she's ashamed of it. She's not
Speaker 1: proud of it, and I I sometimes go, now, you're right,
Speaker 1: be fine, But it's not easy for her for me
Speaker 1: to be out in the world going this is our story.
Speaker 1: But there's so much of what she did do that
Speaker 1: you don't you're not taught to look for in the
Speaker 1: way that we tell stories. We're always looking for the
Speaker 1: good guy, the bad guy. You know, in order for
Speaker 1: me to come out and be full of pride, there
Speaker 1: has to be a bad guy in my story. And
Speaker 1: it's just life is so much messier than that. It
Speaker 1: so is what I'm hearing you say, and what I
Speaker 1: you know you're making me feel is how you came
Speaker 1: to understand her and gave her the grace for her
Speaker 1: to feel. You know, that you were opening a door
Speaker 1: that she could then walk through despite how she felt
Speaker 1: ashamed or whatever it happened in the past. Well, we
Speaker 1: did that to each other for a while. We just
Speaker 1: kept knocked down through the right doors, and it was
Speaker 1: a long process. And it didn't help that I didn't
Speaker 1: understand that I was autistic. And so you've got someone
Speaker 1: who's near atypical trying to communicate with someone who's not.
Speaker 1: So there's that added part of it. But she showed
Speaker 1: me grace for you know, not first I had a
Speaker 1: conversation with her, well, the gay marriage debate in Australia
Speaker 1: was was flinging itself around in the mid turns, and
Speaker 1: you know, she said something that's still to this day
Speaker 1: staggers me. And I said it in and that I
Speaker 1: say it in my memoi. Say it again, she said
Speaker 1: to me, she said she regrets raising me as if
Speaker 1: I was straight. And I just think that that's an
Speaker 1: outlandishly progressive thing to say, um, because it's not just
Speaker 1: like it's not a simple apology like you know, sorry
Speaker 1: I said some things. It's like, fundamentally I made some
Speaker 1: assumptions that damaged you, and it is true. It's not
Speaker 1: her fault. That's the world we live in, um. And
Speaker 1: so there's a lesson to be learned there. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of lessons to be learned there. We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: You know. Some of what made the nets so surprising
Speaker 1: and really so great is the way that you dealt
Speaker 1: with self deprecation. And I had never thought about it
Speaker 1: the way that you were describing it. You actually talk
Speaker 1: about how self deprecation from somebody who already exists in
Speaker 1: the margins. Is not humility, it's humiliation. You put yourself
Speaker 1: down in order to not only speak, but in order
Speaker 1: to seek permission to speak, and you said you just
Speaker 1: would not do that anymore. That's such a profound realization.
Speaker 1: And you know, on a totally different level, you know,
Speaker 1: women engage in self deprecation all the time to be
Speaker 1: accepted in predominantly male settings. Put themselves down and humiliate themselves.
Speaker 1: I speak from some experience, um in order for people
Speaker 1: to think, oh, she's not threatening, she's okay. How did
Speaker 1: you get to that realization? And how did it affect
Speaker 1: the jokes she told and how you determined to present yourself.
Speaker 1: The realization came after my autism diagnosis, and then I
Speaker 1: began to look at the way that I was telling
Speaker 1: my own story is it's it's really wrapped up in
Speaker 1: my autism. And so when I was throughout my career,
Speaker 1: when I go on stage and talk about myself, I
Speaker 1: was very self deprecating. And it was for that reason.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I cut a slightly strange figure
Speaker 1: on stage, so I had to address that. You know,
Speaker 1: I tried not to on occasions, and nobody would laugh
Speaker 1: until I addressed the issue that was me. I couldn't
Speaker 1: just go out and talk about pop tarts, you know,
Speaker 1: So that was my on stage persona. But then I
Speaker 1: was also doing art history lectures on the side, a
Speaker 1: little bit of a side hustle festivals, I you know,
Speaker 1: like the Scottish Art Gallery in Edinburgh and all the
Speaker 1: National Gallery Victorian during the Melbourne Comedy Festival, and I
Speaker 1: do comedy art lectures, and when I got on stage
Speaker 1: and delivered those, I was the captain of the room
Speaker 1: because I didn't have to explain myself. But also I
Speaker 1: was talking about my passion and autism circles. We call
Speaker 1: it's the special interest, but I feel like passion is
Speaker 1: actually a better term, and so I wasn't thinking about myself.
Speaker 1: I don't care how he's got something to tell you.
Speaker 1: I've got something interesting to say and you'll listen. And
Speaker 1: they did. But I couldn't marry the two. I couldn't
Speaker 1: work out how to be that, and until I was diagnosed,
Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that. And so once I did that,
Speaker 1: I thought the self deprecation for what it was. It
Speaker 1: was an apology, but also trying to fit in to
Speaker 1: other people's expectations of you. And I had enough experience
Speaker 1: as a comedian to be able to undo that, you know,
Speaker 1: because I felt more confident than I was looking on stage,
Speaker 1: and so I began to pull that apart. And then
Speaker 1: I saw it for what it was, which is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm putting myself down. I'm doing the work. I thought
Speaker 1: I was flipping the script on the homophobia, on the
Speaker 1: you know, the fat phobia, on the woman phobia, all
Speaker 1: the queer phobia, all these phobias. I thought I was
Speaker 1: flipping the script. But in order to flip the script,
Speaker 1: first of all, I had to remind people of the script.
Speaker 1: And that was a damaging thing. And that's what I
Speaker 1: did in and it and I said, the script is
Speaker 1: no good. I'm changing the script. But I also think
Speaker 1: it's an important tool. I'm not devoid of it now,
Speaker 1: like I'm in a different part of my life now,
Speaker 1: says my self deprecation skills are actually coming in handy.
Speaker 1: I need to have a bit of humility about me.
Speaker 1: I have power where I didn't have any. Now people
Speaker 1: know me, the room changes when I walk into it.
Speaker 1: I should be self deprecating. That's interesting. But from the
Speaker 1: new perspective. Yeah, but I won't be self deprecating about
Speaker 1: being queer. I won't be self deprecating about being autistic
Speaker 1: white all day. I will be self deprecating all day
Speaker 1: about wine. Not a problem. We are bad people. We
Speaker 1: it's there is proof, there's a lot of evidence backing.
Speaker 1: We wrote it. We kept the notes. Well, you said
Speaker 1: that you know your life had changed, and one thing
Speaker 1: is you got married last year. Congratulations, I think you
Speaker 1: married your producer Jenny. Now how did you two get together?
Speaker 1: And um, and how did you decide that you're going
Speaker 1: to take this, you know, big step together. We started
Speaker 1: working together. She was my on the ground producer for
Speaker 1: my off Broadway run of Nanette, so it was a
Speaker 1: pre Netflix. We worked together great. We liked each other.
Speaker 1: But I'm not great at picking up you know. So
Speaker 1: you know. Just but when I was about to do
Speaker 1: a world tour of my new show Douglas, I was
Speaker 1: chatting and she told me she was looking for a
Speaker 1: new thing to do. New. She's incredibly intelligent, incredibly good
Speaker 1: at what she does, but was looking for something new.
Speaker 1: And so I ran my manager and said, okay, Because
Speaker 1: the thing about Jenner is that she knew I needed
Speaker 1: things before I did. And as someone on the spectrum,
Speaker 1: that is just so nice because sometimes I'll be distressed
Speaker 1: and not know why. And I had someone on my
Speaker 1: team who's just like I think, I think you might
Speaker 1: be thirsty. It's as simple as that. So we began
Speaker 1: to work together. We're on it. We did a world
Speaker 1: tour and at some stage that the penny drop. Then
Speaker 1: the pandemic happened. So we had a world tour and
Speaker 1: a pandemic in lockdown on in Australia, and if I
Speaker 1: don't know if you read the news, but it was
Speaker 1: it was brutal. Yeah, we we took it seriously. So
Speaker 1: we figured from that, you know, that's sickness and health
Speaker 1: in rather extremes that we had this. But Jenny is
Speaker 1: one of the only people I've ever met who instantly
Speaker 1: understood my way of communicating. And you know, there wasn't
Speaker 1: a torment of adjustment. It was just which is really lovely. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to end by asking you for advice because
Speaker 1: hill Billy here for you. If I need you, I
Speaker 1: need your girl. So you've talked about dealing with online trolls, who,
Speaker 1: as we both know, just loved to come after people
Speaker 1: like us who don't follow the rules or the prescribed
Speaker 1: roles that are set out for us. So, what's your
Speaker 1: strategy for dealing with online bigotry and hatred? And you've
Speaker 1: got any good comebacks you want to share for the
Speaker 1: next time I need one, Hillary, my advice to you
Speaker 1: is don't engage, because what's coming at you is not
Speaker 1: sanity boy, that's for sure. The thing about social media,
Speaker 1: we have allowed a very narrow demographic of people who
Speaker 1: are not famous for their interpersonal skills like I speak
Speaker 1: as they might people, and we have allowed that small
Speaker 1: demographic of people to build the infrastructure through which we
Speaker 1: all communicate, and it's driving us insane as a collective.
Speaker 1: And so just bear that in mind next time you
Speaker 1: see dramas. Just like Zuckerberg, Hannah Goutsby, I cannot tell
Speaker 1: you how much I have loved talking with you in person.
Speaker 1: So instead of just admiring you from AFAR and following
Speaker 1: your personal evolution, I agree got to talk to you
Speaker 1: and I just look forward to whatever comes next for you.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Hally Billy has been an absolutely
Speaker 1: create I'm so sorry I keep calling you that, but
Speaker 1: I'm not sorry. Thank you so much. Thank you. I
Speaker 1: guess Hannah did do her physical therapy exercises because she's
Speaker 1: back on her feet and hitting the road. She'll be
Speaker 1: performing her new show called Body of Work across the
Speaker 1: United States this spring and summer. For details on her tour,
Speaker 1: go to Hannah Gatsby dot com dot AU. And before
Speaker 1: I go a next week's episode of You and Me Both,
Speaker 1: I'll be answering your questions with a special guest. If
Speaker 1: you've got a last minute question for me, you can
Speaker 1: write to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com,
Speaker 1: or you can leave a voice message at two oh
Speaker 1: to seven eight oh seven five one five, and who knows,
Speaker 1: I might just answer your question on the show You
Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo,
Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson,
Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our
Speaker 1: engineer is Zach McNeice and original music is by Forest Gray.
Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone
Speaker 1: else about it, And if you're not already a subscriber,
Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to you
Speaker 1: and me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back neck next week when I'll be answering
Speaker 1: your questions. Don't miss it.