1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: You and Me Both is a production of I Heart 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Radio Hannah. Hannah Gadsby, Hello Hillary, Is that what I 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: called you? Or is it Madame Secretary? Or Hillary? Is 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: my name? Hilly Billy, Hilly Billy. I will not call 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: you that, of course, now that you have it in 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: your head, you'll never forget it. It's true. And no William, 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well yeah, I've been calling a lot worse, 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: as have you. So I'm Hillary Clinton and this is 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: you and Me Both on today's episode. I'm talking to 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: one of my favorite comedians. Though in my mind, she's 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: much more than a comedian. She's also a provocative thinker 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: who challenges her audiences to do some serious thinking too. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: Like many people, I first discovered Hannah Gadsby in eighteen 14 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: when I saw her breakout Netflix comedy special Nannette. That 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: show was a huge success, earning Hannah an Emmy and 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: a Peabody Award, which game as a surprise to her because, 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: as she puts it, Nanette is arguably the most deliberately miserable, 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: unfunny hour of comedy ever made. If you haven't seen 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: it yet, the special begins with Hannah's trademark dry humor, 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: with self deprecating jokes about her appearance and about the 21 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: sexism and gender based violence she experienced in her life, 22 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: particularly growing up in Tasmania, the very conservative part of 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: Australia where she lived then. And this is a spoiler, 24 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: Hannah tells us she's quitting comedy because she no longer 25 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: wants to be party to a form of entertainment where 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: she introduces audiences to her trauma and then re traumatizes 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: herself by inviting us to laugh about it. As an example, 28 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: she shares the story of coming out as gay to 29 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: her mother because the response to me coming out when 30 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: first told her that I was a little bit lesbian 31 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: byby steps, her response. Her response was this, She's just gone, Oh, Hannah, 32 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: why did you have to tell me that that's not 33 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: something I to know? I mean, what if I told 34 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: you I was a murderer. It is pretty funny, but 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: as she points out, it's also very painful. Luckily for us, 36 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: Hannah did not quit comedy. Instead, she found a way 37 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: of doing it that does not require her to inflict 38 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: pain on herself or anyone else who's been victimized in 39 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: the ways that she has in Hannah released another Netflix 40 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: special called Douglas, which touches on a range of topics 41 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: from the patriarchy to anti vax ER's, her haters, her 42 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: own diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder or a s D, 43 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: which she received in and she's got a memoir coming 44 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: out right now called Ten Steps. Tune in net, Welcome 45 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: Hannah to the show. I am so happy to be 46 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: talking to you, but first I got to ask you. 47 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: I heard you broke your leg, real doozy. I fell 48 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: over walking in Iceland. Yeah, well, there's a lot of 49 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: ice in Iceland. They're not lying. It's on the label 50 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: very nice, nice healthcare system there. I had emergency surgery 51 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: and they looked after me. Great, have you done the 52 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: physical therapy that you've got to do in order to 53 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: get your strength back? Well, I've got to wait for 54 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: it to heal. So yeah, I've just had surgery. Can 55 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: you get back off a bit like I've caught plates 56 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: and screws in? Well? I can? I can move the foot? Yeah? 57 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: I broke my elbow about to I don't remember. Two 58 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: thousand and nine a long time ago. And you didn't 59 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: do the exercise it did? Oh? No, I did? I 60 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: did because I was I was scared out of my 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: mind that if I didn't, but I have like plates 62 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: and you know all that stuff, and I know, I mean, 63 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: it takes a while, but you've got to do the 64 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: exercises when they clear you to do it. So that's 65 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: that's my that's my physical therapy advice for the day. 66 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: And this is not what I expected, but I will 67 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: take it well. I was so excited to talk with 68 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 1: you because I have been a fan. I really appreciate 69 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: how you literally have approached not just your comedy, but 70 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: I guess your life in a way that kind of 71 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: shares it with the rest of us. And in it 72 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: seemed to me from afar that your life was turned 73 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: upside down because your stand up special, and then that 74 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 1: was released on Netflix, which is where I saw it. 75 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: People around the world like me met you for the 76 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: first time. And since then, you've put out another Netflix 77 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: special called Douglas. You're soon get hit the road once 78 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: your leg gets prepared and ready to do your new 79 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: show called Body of Work. You've also gotten married, another 80 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: big life event, and you've got a memoir coming out. 81 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: Holy moly, I mean, you have been one busy person. 82 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: How has your life changed and how if you can 83 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: describe how you feel about all this, because I mean, 84 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: was not that long ago, and so much has happened since. Well, yeah, 85 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: a lot happened in my life, and then a lot 86 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: happened globally that has nothing to do with me. So 87 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: it's how to get a measure on what has become 88 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: my life when the whole world has been turned upside down. 89 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: That's true. But for that brief window where I was 90 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: the center of the universe, it was a bit shocking. 91 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: I went like, because before this Netflix special dropped, I 92 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: would have classed myself as a successful comedian. I was 93 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: earning money. I was a living wage, which is not 94 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: something I've had before comedy b C as we like 95 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: to say. And I was regularly touring Australia in the UK, 96 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: so you know, Americans would not have heard of me, 97 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: but that does not preclude my existence. So the Netflix 98 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: special just put me up into this model of success 99 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: that was not something I was prepared for, mostly because 100 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 1: you just look out there and you just don't see 101 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: someone like me. And I say fair enough as well, 102 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: like I'm not everyone's cup of tea, you know, I know, 103 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: I'm a typical and not riddled with enthusiasm, and I 104 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: feel like that's what really gets you some success. So 105 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: I ran the analytics, and I didn't think I'd be 106 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: successful on on a global stage, and so I just 107 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 1: sat back and sat in my lane and did my work, 108 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: and I felt very disorientating to be you know, what 109 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: was the trickiest thing is famous people knowing who I was. Like, 110 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: it's one thing for a lot of you know, people 111 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: who I would say, I like me knowing who I was, 112 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, well that's weird. But for famous people to 113 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: know who I am, I'm not the best person for 114 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: that because I don't always know who people are. So 115 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: I am just a faux pa waiting to happen. I'm 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, and I'm really and we're so thrilled to 117 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: heavy on the spot. But you know, you grew up 118 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: in a place that I haven't yet visited, but I 119 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, really been fascinated by for a very long 120 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: time called Tasmania. Uh what do you know about Tesmania? 121 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: Here's what given I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you what 122 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: I know and then and you can tell me how 123 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: wrong I am. It's a big island part of Australia, 124 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: but off the coast of Australia there are things called 125 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: the Tasmanian Devils. It's somewhat sparsely populated. It is both 126 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: agricultural and I guess you know, fishing and things like that. 127 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: It's beautiful, but it's also stark, and it's somewhat isolating 128 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: and quite conservative. That's what I know about it. You 129 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: did read my book, Yeah, it's it's um it's so 130 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: of like if you threw New Zealand into a gothic nightmare. Um. 131 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: I love Tasmania. I am from there. I grew up there. 132 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: It's all I knew for a very long time. But 133 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 1: the Tasmania that exists now is different to the one 134 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: that I grew up in. And I think that's a 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: really important point to make because it, like me, has 136 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: evolved and it's quite easy for a single person to 137 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: mature and grow up, but it's actually quite difficult for 138 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: a culture to mature and grow up in a short 139 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: space of time. And what did that was the gay 140 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: law reform that took place in the eighties and nineties. 141 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: It was fierce and it reached the global stage. I think, 142 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: you know, we might have made the New York Times once. 143 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: Um it was a really intense sort of conflation of 144 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: my own identity and my home's identity, because at that 145 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: time it was it was fiercely homophobic and proudly so, 146 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: and it was like, this is who we are, and 147 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: I was learning that that's who I was. And so 148 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: I was a debatable citizen in the most sort of 149 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: really vulnerable time of my life. And there's all sorts 150 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: of terrible things to talk about in that story, but 151 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: you could cut also to the positive headline that Tasmania 152 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: has some of the strongest human rights protections in Australian. 153 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: You know, I can't claim the world. It's a big place, 154 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: but I think we learned as a as a community 155 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: that we didn't like being divided like that, we didn't 156 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: like being painted as an accepting and you know this 157 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: sturely pockets still there, but as a as a whole, 158 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: I feel safe going back home where I never did before. Um. 159 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: So it's a long and dark history, but there is 160 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: that at the end of it. Well, I really like 161 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: the way you talk about it evolving because I know 162 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: that you know in the net when you talk about 163 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: your childhood and and how you first saw what you 164 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: call your people when you watch the Sydney Gay and 165 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: Lesbian Mardi Gras, and you saw people having a great 166 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: time and partying. And you know, you have a great 167 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: line where you say, well where do the quiet gays? 168 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: God always, I've never been to mad I just looks 169 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: a bit much. I'm very proud, but well, I just 170 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: have this image of you as as a young girl, 171 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: young woman in Tasmania and like so many other lgbt 172 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: Q kids, all of a sudden, not feeling alone, even 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: though it was just through a TV screen. It's one 174 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: of those It's a student of history. This this golds 175 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: me the most is each generation we have to prove 176 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: that we exist. And I am a student of history. 177 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: I know we've always existed. You just have to not 178 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: have the biases that blind you to that existence. And 179 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: right now it's happening to trans kids and gender quick kids, 180 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: and honestly that's where I am on the spectrum. I 181 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: have gender queer, but we didn't have the language when 182 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: I was growing up. So the bonus of not having languages, 183 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: you don't have the vitriol on the other side of 184 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: the language, and that's what we're going through now. I 185 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,559 Speaker 1: feel a real sense of urgency about what I can 186 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: see happening now. I feel very also helpless because what's 187 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: happening to trans kids, particularly in the US, but also 188 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: in Australia, in the UK IS and elsewhere. My sure, 189 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: but it's now a hot topic. It's being it's a 190 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: plaything for people who want to motivate hatred in order 191 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: to generate votes and clicks. It's really toxic, and it's 192 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: become you know, they're dividing families that you know, even 193 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: running laws that parents and teachers who help trans kids 194 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: performing some kind of child abuse. And it's just like, 195 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: we can't solve the riddle of gender, but we can 196 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: be decent to our children. You know, doing untold damage 197 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: to trans kids and also kids who aren't you know, 198 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: kids who are burgeoning transphobs. We are doing damage to 199 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: them because you know, we're teaching kids that it's okay 200 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: to exclude. And really, if we're going to get through 201 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: climate change, we need everyone. We're taking a quick break. 202 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: Stay with us now. I want to tell you a 203 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: story about a terrible conversation I had at the dog park. 204 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: One this bloke just walks up to me. I mean, 205 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: he had a dog. He wasn't just being creepy. Had context, 206 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: and I don't want to tell you this, it's not 207 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: pertinent to the story, but I want you to know 208 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: his dog had shoes on, and his dog did not 209 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: want to have shoes on because he's doing that like 210 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: and it was a whippet situation. And they're shaking at 211 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: the best of times. So we don't know why are 212 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: they cold? Are they nervous? We don't know. But it 213 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: was like just it was lot. Now it's not important 214 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: to the story, but it was a lot in my periphery. 215 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: So I just want you to know added stress. Now, 216 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: this was my friend's icebreaker. We've never met. This was 217 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: his icebreaker. He said, did you know it takes less 218 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: muscles to smile than brown. Now, the men in the 219 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: audience are sitting there going, oh, you've experienced an isolated incident. 220 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: When the women are sitting there going oh, the Fox 221 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: safe and non binary folks are like, is that a 222 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: hard day for you? Isn't That's a clip from your 223 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: Netflix special, Douglas. The other thing that you have talked 224 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: about as you were diagnosed with autism a few years ago, 225 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: and you actually have said that the day you were 226 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:59,359 Speaker 1: diagnosed was a very good day. How would you explain that? Uh, 227 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: you know, the process of going from hunch to diagnosis 228 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: was quite exhilarating because as I researched it, parts of 229 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: myself just fell into place and it's like, oh, oh, 230 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: I make sense suddenly. Um. In fact, coming to terms 231 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: with my atypical thinking was even more profound than coming 232 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: to terms with my sexuality, because ultimately your sexuality is 233 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: it's not a large part of your day to day, 234 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: whereas the way you think is pretty much always there. 235 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: So learning that I was never going to get to 236 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: the starting line of normal I say that in air quotes, 237 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: sort of gave me a bit of a breather, Like 238 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: I've been treading water my entire life, just trying to 239 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: work out what was important and ignoring what was actually 240 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: important to me, which put a lot of stress on 241 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: my central nervous system. But the flip side of that was, 242 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: after that relief came a lot of greed because it 243 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: was almost so simple a click, this understanding that oh 244 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: you think differently, and I can just deal with that. 245 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: But I just also feel like, in this conversation about 246 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: autism and neuro divergence. There's still a lot of shame 247 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: around it because it's not always an easy existence. So 248 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: are you choking to death? I'm not choking to death. 249 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: I'm trying not to cough through this incredible description. Yeah 250 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: you did? You did? Yeah? Look, I mean the body 251 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: knows the score. You did? You broken up? Sorry? Sorry? Um? 252 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: Where was I? Where was I? Was I talking about 253 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: anything interesting? Oh? Yes, grief? Because you know there's this 254 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: shame that is being projected onto the names and the 255 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: labels of a s D, and because you know at 256 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: the end is disorder like that is always the thing. 257 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: But you know, if you look at the more sort 258 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: of holistically, how can you prove that there is a 259 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: right way for our central nerves the system to operate 260 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: and what you know what sparks up and individual's central 261 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: nervous system. We don't have a grip on it. We're 262 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: still the sciences very active. So as individuals, we don't 263 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: get to solve that. All we get to do is 264 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: do the best we can. And we have enough information 265 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: now to know that not all kids are the same. 266 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: Alert Let's make sure everybody hears out and it's not 267 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: just the way we look like it's just on a 268 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: very fundamental level, information in and information out is different, 269 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: and for too long, particularly girls and any other not boys, 270 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: it's seen as character flaws, and that compounds the shame 271 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: and the stress of it, because it's like a boy 272 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: not talking, it's like, you know, he's a strong, silent 273 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: type having interesting thoughts, whereas a girl that becomes sulky, 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: then it's just a simple A seed is that and 275 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: that snowballs. But I think the beauty of a lot 276 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: of people on the spectrum, there's lot of trauma that 277 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: we have to exist through because the world is not 278 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: built for us and the world doesn't really accommodate our 279 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: kind of thinking, which is is not direct. But I'm 280 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: surrounded by stories that prioritize neurotypical experiences of the world. 281 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: So I have a great understanding and appreciation for neurotypical experience, 282 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: and it is typical for a reason. But I think 283 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: it's time for neurotypical people to not pity or for fear, 284 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: but sort of try and learn the language. It's about humanizing. 285 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: We're very we're devastatingly simple. People Just talk to us 286 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: about what we're interested in, and you're ours forever, like 287 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: where were your puppy dogs? Well, you mentioned the word trauma, 288 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: and you've gone through a lot in your life, and 289 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 1: now you've got a new book coming out, Ten Steps 290 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: to Nanat, a new one. It's my only one, it's 291 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: your own, you one, your first. Also, I should just 292 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: clean something up. Sorry to dropped, but um, I to 293 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: regret that every time I say it. But anyway, I 294 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: can't speak for everyone on spectrum, and it's a spectrum 295 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: for a reason, So just totally get that. And and 296 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: I do think it's important to emphasize that there is 297 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: diversity on the spectrum, just like there is in every 298 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: other aspect of human life and experience. But you know, 299 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: we now know so much more about what trauma does 300 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: to the body. You know literally how it affects you 301 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: know how people feel and think and almost physically your 302 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: body reacts. So how have you figured out a way 303 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: to process trauma? I asked, And really, you know you 304 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: don't expect an answer. Well, I do expect some kind 305 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: of an answer because I do think that finally people 306 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: are recognizing what trauma does to a person. The way 307 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: out of trauma is is a complicated path, and it's 308 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: not ever, the way into trauma is is very quick, 309 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: it could be a momentum. The way out of trauma 310 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: is rarely as simple, and I think, I think the 311 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: emphasis on the individual to get themselves out of trauma 312 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: is criminal because you can't achieve a sense of safety 313 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: without the community within which you live. You know, understanding 314 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: that you felt unsafe and have an invested interest in 315 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: your feeling safe. So just understanding that you can appreciate 316 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: why there are great numbers of communities who are existing 317 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: in cyclical trauma, because time and time again, their governments 318 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: let them know that they're not safe. I have emerged 319 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: on the other side of my trauma. I took a 320 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: punt with my show a Nette. It was a working 321 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: theory that if I shared it honestly and in a 322 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: controlled environment, and I felt like I could control the 323 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: stand up comedy arena, you know, three people at a 324 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: time in the same room, I was going to force 325 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: them to sit in my all my sort of distress, 326 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: in all its all its charm, that being you know anger, fear, 327 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: and you know vulnerability, if you want to use that 328 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: old chestnut, and I didn't think it would pay off. 329 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: I thought by doing that, I would reduce my audience, 330 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: but reduce it to a number that felt safer to me. 331 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: But what actually happened was surprising, as my audience got 332 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and something and what I was saying 333 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: that was cathartic people having conversations after my show, you know, 334 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 1: families would go in and then you know, I got 335 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: so many notes from people saying we had conversation the 336 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: we need to have. You know, that made me feel 337 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: part of a community, and that made me feel safer, 338 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: not the fact that I got this thing off my chest. 339 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: It was not a void. You know, we all knew 340 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: that these things happened to people all the time, but 341 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: we just don't talk about it because we get stuck 342 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 1: on the trauma loop and what happens after is so 343 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: much more important. We need to show that people can 344 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 1: recover from trauma. We need to show that it's a battle. 345 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 1: We need help, But it's not a drain worth circling. 346 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: Terrible things happen to people all the time, and it's 347 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: not resilience pawn because it's a community effort. I will 348 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: not stand as a person I've nailed this. I don't 349 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: know what it is about what I did that helped 350 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: me through this. They did so many different things, but 351 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: one of the main things is I felt connected. You know. 352 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: That really corresponds with everything that I know or that 353 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: I've heard about how people can work through their trauma 354 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: because they find a safe space and they find a community. 355 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: And you mentioned how families would have conversations after seeing 356 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: you in your stand up routine talking about, you know, 357 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: the disappointments and the attacks and the physical abuse and 358 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: everything that you experienced. What about your own family and 359 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: particularly your mom, because I know you've talked about some 360 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: of the you know, quite hurtful things that she would 361 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: say to you when you were younger and when you 362 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: did come out. How has that relationship evolved. Well, I 363 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: think it's evolved because I've matured and I can see. 364 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: My mother was in an impossible position. She was trying 365 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: to raise children in a intolerant place, and the active 366 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: conversation happening around her was one of intolerance. What do 367 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: you do like? You know? So she did the best 368 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: she could. Sometimes it came out sideways and was painful, 369 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: but ultimately she walked of an almost impossible line. But 370 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: she did it, and she's ashamed of it. She's not 371 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: proud of it, and I I sometimes go, now, you're right, 372 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: be fine, But it's not easy for her for me 373 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: to be out in the world going this is our story. 374 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: But there's so much of what she did do that 375 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: you don't you're not taught to look for in the 376 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: way that we tell stories. We're always looking for the 377 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: good guy, the bad guy. You know, in order for 378 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,679 Speaker 1: me to come out and be full of pride, there 379 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: has to be a bad guy in my story. And 380 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: it's just life is so much messier than that. It 381 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: so is what I'm hearing you say, and what I 382 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: you know you're making me feel is how you came 383 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: to understand her and gave her the grace for her 384 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: to feel. You know, that you were opening a door 385 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: that she could then walk through despite how she felt 386 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: ashamed or whatever it happened in the past. Well, we 387 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: did that to each other for a while. We just 388 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: kept knocked down through the right doors, and it was 389 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: a long process. And it didn't help that I didn't 390 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: understand that I was autistic. And so you've got someone 391 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,719 Speaker 1: who's near atypical trying to communicate with someone who's not. 392 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: So there's that added part of it. But she showed 393 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: me grace for you know, not first I had a 394 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 1: conversation with her, well, the gay marriage debate in Australia 395 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: was was flinging itself around in the mid turns, and 396 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, she said something that's still to this day 397 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: staggers me. And I said it in and that I 398 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: say it in my memoi. Say it again, she said 399 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: to me, she said she regrets raising me as if 400 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: I was straight. And I just think that that's an 401 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: outlandishly progressive thing to say, um, because it's not just 402 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: like it's not a simple apology like you know, sorry 403 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: I said some things. It's like, fundamentally I made some 404 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: assumptions that damaged you, and it is true. It's not 405 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: her fault. That's the world we live in, um. And 406 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: so there's a lesson to be learned there. There's a 407 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: lot of lessons to be learned there. We'll be right back. 408 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: You know. Some of what made the nets so surprising 409 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: and really so great is the way that you dealt 410 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 1: with self deprecation. And I had never thought about it 411 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 1: the way that you were describing it. You actually talk 412 00:25:54,520 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: about how self deprecation from somebody who already exists in 413 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: the margins. Is not humility, it's humiliation. You put yourself 414 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: down in order to not only speak, but in order 415 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: to seek permission to speak, and you said you just 416 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: would not do that anymore. That's such a profound realization. 417 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: And you know, on a totally different level, you know, 418 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: women engage in self deprecation all the time to be 419 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: accepted in predominantly male settings. Put themselves down and humiliate themselves. 420 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: I speak from some experience, um in order for people 421 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: to think, oh, she's not threatening, she's okay. How did 422 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: you get to that realization? And how did it affect 423 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: the jokes she told and how you determined to present yourself. 424 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 1: The realization came after my autism diagnosis, and then I 425 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: began to look at the way that I was telling 426 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: my own story is it's it's really wrapped up in 427 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: my autism. And so when I was throughout my career, 428 00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: when I go on stage and talk about myself, I 429 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: was very self deprecating. And it was for that reason. 430 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, I cut a slightly strange figure 431 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: on stage, so I had to address that. You know, 432 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: I tried not to on occasions, and nobody would laugh 433 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: until I addressed the issue that was me. I couldn't 434 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: just go out and talk about pop tarts, you know, 435 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 1: So that was my on stage persona. But then I 436 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: was also doing art history lectures on the side, a 437 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: little bit of a side hustle festivals, I you know, 438 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: like the Scottish Art Gallery in Edinburgh and all the 439 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: National Gallery Victorian during the Melbourne Comedy Festival, and I 440 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: do comedy art lectures, and when I got on stage 441 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: and delivered those, I was the captain of the room 442 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: because I didn't have to explain myself. But also I 443 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: was talking about my passion and autism circles. We call 444 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: it's the special interest, but I feel like passion is 445 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: actually a better term, and so I wasn't thinking about myself. 446 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: I don't care how he's got something to tell you. 447 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:02,919 Speaker 1: I've got something interesting to say and you'll listen. And 448 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: they did. But I couldn't marry the two. I couldn't 449 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: work out how to be that, and until I was diagnosed, 450 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: I didn't quite understand that. And so once I did that, 451 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: I thought the self deprecation for what it was. It 452 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: was an apology, but also trying to fit in to 453 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: other people's expectations of you. And I had enough experience 454 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: as a comedian to be able to undo that, you know, 455 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: because I felt more confident than I was looking on stage, 456 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: and so I began to pull that apart. And then 457 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: I saw it for what it was, which is like, oh, 458 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm putting myself down. I'm doing the work. I thought 459 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: I was flipping the script on the homophobia, on the 460 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: you know, the fat phobia, on the woman phobia, all 461 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: the queer phobia, all these phobias. I thought I was 462 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: flipping the script. But in order to flip the script, 463 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: first of all, I had to remind people of the script. 464 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: And that was a damaging thing. And that's what I 465 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: did in and it and I said, the script is 466 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: no good. I'm changing the script. But I also think 467 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: it's an important tool. I'm not devoid of it now, 468 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: like I'm in a different part of my life now, 469 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: says my self deprecation skills are actually coming in handy. 470 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: I need to have a bit of humility about me. 471 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: I have power where I didn't have any. Now people 472 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: know me, the room changes when I walk into it. 473 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: I should be self deprecating. That's interesting. But from the 474 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: new perspective. Yeah, but I won't be self deprecating about 475 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: being queer. I won't be self deprecating about being autistic 476 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: white all day. I will be self deprecating all day 477 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: about wine. Not a problem. We are bad people. We 478 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: it's there is proof, there's a lot of evidence backing. 479 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: We wrote it. We kept the notes. Well, you said 480 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: that you know your life had changed, and one thing 481 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: is you got married last year. Congratulations, I think you 482 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: married your producer Jenny. Now how did you two get together? 483 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: And um, and how did you decide that you're going 484 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,959 Speaker 1: to take this, you know, big step together. We started 485 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: working together. She was my on the ground producer for 486 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: my off Broadway run of Nanette, so it was a 487 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: pre Netflix. We worked together great. We liked each other. 488 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: But I'm not great at picking up you know. So 489 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: you know. Just but when I was about to do 490 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: a world tour of my new show Douglas, I was 491 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: chatting and she told me she was looking for a 492 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: new thing to do. New. She's incredibly intelligent, incredibly good 493 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: at what she does, but was looking for something new. 494 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: And so I ran my manager and said, okay, Because 495 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: the thing about Jenner is that she knew I needed 496 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: things before I did. And as someone on the spectrum, 497 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: that is just so nice because sometimes I'll be distressed 498 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: and not know why. And I had someone on my 499 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: team who's just like I think, I think you might 500 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: be thirsty. It's as simple as that. So we began 501 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: to work together. We're on it. We did a world 502 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: tour and at some stage that the penny drop. Then 503 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: the pandemic happened. So we had a world tour and 504 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: a pandemic in lockdown on in Australia, and if I 505 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: don't know if you read the news, but it was 506 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: it was brutal. Yeah, we we took it seriously. So 507 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: we figured from that, you know, that's sickness and health 508 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: in rather extremes that we had this. But Jenny is 509 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: one of the only people I've ever met who instantly 510 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: understood my way of communicating. And you know, there wasn't 511 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: a torment of adjustment. It was just which is really lovely. Well, 512 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to end by asking you for advice because 513 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: hill Billy here for you. If I need you, I 514 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: need your girl. So you've talked about dealing with online trolls, who, 515 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: as we both know, just loved to come after people 516 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: like us who don't follow the rules or the prescribed 517 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: roles that are set out for us. So, what's your 518 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: strategy for dealing with online bigotry and hatred? And you've 519 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 1: got any good comebacks you want to share for the 520 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: next time I need one, Hillary, my advice to you 521 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: is don't engage, because what's coming at you is not 522 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: sanity boy, that's for sure. The thing about social media, 523 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: we have allowed a very narrow demographic of people who 524 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: are not famous for their interpersonal skills like I speak 525 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: as they might people, and we have allowed that small 526 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 1: demographic of people to build the infrastructure through which we 527 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: all communicate, and it's driving us insane as a collective. 528 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: And so just bear that in mind next time you 529 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: see dramas. Just like Zuckerberg, Hannah Goutsby, I cannot tell 530 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: you how much I have loved talking with you in person. 531 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: So instead of just admiring you from AFAR and following 532 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: your personal evolution, I agree got to talk to you 533 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: and I just look forward to whatever comes next for you. 534 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Hally Billy has been an absolutely 535 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: create I'm so sorry I keep calling you that, but 536 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm not sorry. Thank you so much. Thank you. I 537 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: guess Hannah did do her physical therapy exercises because she's 538 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: back on her feet and hitting the road. She'll be 539 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: performing her new show called Body of Work across the 540 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: United States this spring and summer. For details on her tour, 541 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: go to Hannah Gatsby dot com dot AU. And before 542 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: I go a next week's episode of You and Me Both, 543 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: I'll be answering your questions with a special guest. If 544 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: you've got a last minute question for me, you can 545 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: write to You and Me Both pod at gmail dot com, 546 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: or you can leave a voice message at two oh 547 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: to seven eight oh seven five one five, and who knows, 548 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: I might just answer your question on the show You 549 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart Radio. 550 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: We're produced by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo and Rob Russo, 551 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: with help from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna Johnson, 552 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: Nick Merrill, Laura Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and Benita Zaman. Our 553 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: engineer is Zach McNeice and original music is by Forest Gray. 554 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: If you like You and Me Both, please tell someone 555 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,800 Speaker 1: else about it, And if you're not already a subscriber, 556 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: what are you waiting for? You can subscribe to you 557 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: and me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 558 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, and 559 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: we'll be back neck next week when I'll be answering 560 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 1: your questions. Don't miss it.