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Speaker 1: I am Scott and I'm then and work from car Stuff.

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Speaker 1: We're the podcast that covers everything that flutes, flies, swims,

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Speaker 1: or drives, adventures, thrills, chills, literally, planes, trains and automobiles.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And you can find all of our episodes

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Speaker 1: on Google Play, Spotify, iTunes, and really anywhere else you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Welcome to you Stuf to Blow your

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Speaker 1: Mind from housetop work dot com. There is, gentle reader,

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Speaker 1: nothing the works of God, only set apart, which so

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Speaker 1: much beautifies and adorns the soul and mind of man,

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Speaker 1: as does knowledge of the good arts and sciences. Many

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Speaker 1: arts there are which beautify the mind of man, But

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Speaker 1: of all none do more garnish and beautify it than

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Speaker 1: those arts which are called and mathematical, unto the knowledge

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Speaker 1: of which no man can tane without perfect knowledge and

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Speaker 1: instruction of the principles, grounds and elements of geometry. Hey,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Seger. And if

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Speaker 1: last episode sounded like we were invoking a ritual to

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Speaker 1: summon angels or demons, this sounds like we are teaching

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Speaker 1: ap calculus. Yeah, that those are the words of Dr

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Speaker 1: John D. Those are from his preface, his mathematical preface

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Speaker 1: to the fifteen seventy translation of Euclid's Elements. Now at

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Speaker 1: this point we should we should mention that if you

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Speaker 1: did not listen to our previous episode on John D,

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Speaker 1: you definitely need to go back to that one, because

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Speaker 1: that that is the episode where we we really dove

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Speaker 1: into his timeline and discussed in broad strokes the major

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Speaker 1: events of his life. Yeah, we also focused on the

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Speaker 1: sort of magical occult aspects of John these beliefs and

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Speaker 1: life in that episode. This episode, we're really going to

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Speaker 1: focus on his scientific education, his ability with mathematics, um,

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Speaker 1: how he participated in state craft in England and in

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Speaker 1: fact advocated for expanding the British Empire and especially developed

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Speaker 1: cryptography as we know it today. Yeah, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: interesting too, and that even though you know, in a

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Speaker 1: sense the last episode was magic and this one is

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Speaker 1: the is the science. This is more rooted in the

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Speaker 1: real world. John D was not so firmly rooted. He

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Speaker 1: seemed to to live simultaneously in the mathematical and the

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Speaker 1: magical world. He did not really see a division like

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Speaker 1: like the spiritual, the mathematical, the magic. It was all

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Speaker 1: part of the world as he perceived it. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: get ready, as we're talking about this stuff, it may

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Speaker 1: seem like, oh, we're going over some historical science here,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, Merlin will

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Speaker 1: pop up, or may be some angelic influence here there. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really important to note here too, though, that

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Speaker 1: as unique as he was, this mixing of magic and math,

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Speaker 1: this suspicion of math even was it was not unique

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Speaker 1: to him, it was it was very much a part

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Speaker 1: of the day. Uh, mathematics was regarded in some circles

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Speaker 1: with suspicion at the time. During the Tutor era, mathematical

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Speaker 1: books were sometimes burned as alleged conjuring books. This according

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Speaker 1: to seventeenth century antiquarian John Aubrey. And it was and

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Speaker 1: it was still very much associated with the dark arts.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you have to think to think Pythagoras Key

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Speaker 1: in the history of mathematics, was also considered a magician. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Numbers had inherent powers, and this is a theme that

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Speaker 1: ran through the works of Kepler, Newton, Euclid and others.

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Speaker 1: So there was a long tradition of mathematics and and

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Speaker 1: magic kind of sharing the same space. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that I read was a mathematics were considered disreputable

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Speaker 1: and connected to witchcraft because they were associated with numerology.

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Speaker 1: And I mentioned this in the last episode the Jewish

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Speaker 1: mystical tradition of the Kabbalah. Uh And we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about the cryptography stuff in a minute. But tri Themius,

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Speaker 1: who wrote the book that D really worked off of

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Speaker 1: to create his version of cryptography. That guy was also

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Speaker 1: suspected of wizardry, so this had a long standing tradition.

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Speaker 1: Uh D. For his part, though, in terms of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: his lectures on euclid were wildly popular, as he was

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Speaker 1: seen as a leading scientific figure of his day. I'm

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Speaker 1: picturing that he's like the Neil degrass Tyson, right Like

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Speaker 1: he's he's giving lectures. Everybody's really interested. Uh These lectures

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Speaker 1: earned him an offer to join the faculty at the

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Speaker 1: Sorbonne in Paris in fifteen fifty one. We mentioned that

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Speaker 1: real briefly last time, But he turned stuff like this

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Speaker 1: down because he was hoping to obtain an official position

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Speaker 1: with the English crown. He was also Robert read from

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Speaker 1: this at the beginning, but it's worth pointing out the

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Speaker 1: editor of the first English translation of Euclid's Elements, and

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Speaker 1: in that he added his preface, which what Robert read

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Speaker 1: came from. This preface argued for the usefulness of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: like people didn't regard mathematics as being important at that time,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, this was the first time the public

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Speaker 1: were introduced to the symbols plus minus, x, fra, multiply,

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Speaker 1: and the little dot uh dash dot for division. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In this uh this, this preface, the mathematical preface, he

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Speaker 1: proposed an arts mathematical that he compared to thomaturgy, which

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Speaker 1: is a the use of magic for religious purposes. So

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Speaker 1: he saw mathematics, rather than magic, as the key to

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Speaker 1: thomaturgical wonder Men's work could rival the gods if they

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Speaker 1: could utilize mathematics correctly. And and in this you know

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Speaker 1: you say d was correct. I mean, we may disagree

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Speaker 1: on whether math is a human invention or human discovery,

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Speaker 1: but it has thus far proven to correspond to the

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Speaker 1: inner workings of the cosmos. It's our our best tool. Essentially.

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Speaker 1: He saw this reflected in the creation of automatons, those

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Speaker 1: of Alberta's magnus uh and others. So you know, all

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Speaker 1: these various mechanical devices that mimicked the the the appearance

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Speaker 1: of life, and the movement and the and and the

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Speaker 1: willfulness of life. And in fact, that's where that his

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Speaker 1: FX work in fifty six comes into play. That's what

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Speaker 1: he was essentially dabbling in. Yeah, we talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the last episode. He apparently created this giant automaton.

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Speaker 1: Reportedly it was a mechanical flying beetle. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it actually flew or not, but apparently it was.

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Speaker 1: It was so impressive that people thought that it was magic. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was very much in keeping with his view

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Speaker 1: of what math was and what what science was was

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Speaker 1: capable of doing. That it could replicate the wonders of

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Speaker 1: nature by manipulating the same properties. And he saw he

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Speaker 1: saw things like automatons and even his own special effects

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Speaker 1: work UH as proof of that. He saw the optics

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Speaker 1: of his special mirror is kind of reverse mirror that

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Speaker 1: he would wow people with. He saw that as an

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Speaker 1: example of look, the these amazing feats are possible through optics,

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Speaker 1: through mathematics, through science, and Ultimately, his mathematics led to

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Speaker 1: him advocating for the expansion of the British Empire, and

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Speaker 1: he reportedly is the one who coined the term British Empire. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy, and it's also it's it's sometimes you

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Speaker 1: forget like it's it's hard to think back to a

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Speaker 1: time where the British Empire wasn't a thing, not only

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Speaker 1: in in actuality but even in concept. So we're traveling

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Speaker 1: back to seventy seven here, and this is kind of

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Speaker 1: what was going on at the time. Sir Francis Drake

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Speaker 1: was preparing for an epic voyage around the globe. Um

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Speaker 1: Washingham spies had exposed another plot against the British crown,

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Speaker 1: and he had noted a significant problematic comment amid the

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Speaker 1: meaning saturated stars. And on November twenty eight, amid all

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Speaker 1: of these excitements, he comes and he proposes this concept,

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Speaker 1: this idea to the Queen of England that she should

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Speaker 1: challenge Spain's imperial claim to the New World. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of this was based around how do I

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Speaker 1: put this? He so on top of being a brilliant mathematician,

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Speaker 1: he was able to apply that to cartography and mapping

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Speaker 1: out routes or understanding the geography of the New World. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's you mentioned cartographers here. We mentioned in the past

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Speaker 1: episode that that he uh he'd learned from and was

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Speaker 1: in correspondence with with noted cartographer um Garatis Mercator. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh Mercator is apparently the guy who filled him

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Speaker 1: in a about this idea, that that there was a

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Speaker 1: precedence for the British Empire set by a legendary incursion

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Speaker 1: into the northern in drawing seas around the Pole by

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Speaker 1: King Arthur in the year five thirty lands that had

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Speaker 1: hence been claimed by Iberian nations. This is where he

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Speaker 1: got the whole idea. He being d got the whole

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Speaker 1: idea for him being the modern day Merlin and Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: being the modern day Arthur. He actually presented Elizabeth with

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Speaker 1: a treatise on Britain's imperial limits at one point, and

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Speaker 1: it suggested that the America's had actually been discovered by

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Speaker 1: King Arthur centuries before. Yeah, and and and also that

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Speaker 1: the British Empire was already a thing. This this concept

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Speaker 1: is not something that that England could claim for itself,

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Speaker 1: but reclaimed. This was a This was part of its

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Speaker 1: identity already. Yeah, so you might be wondering what's a

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Speaker 1: courtier anyways. Right, it's a lot of people when they're

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Speaker 1: describing d they just say, well, was a court here.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Apparently it is a

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Speaker 1: man that is concerned with the operation of the Royal

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Speaker 1: Court and by extension, the Kingdom, of which it was

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Speaker 1: an effective ruling body. So it was in his interests

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Speaker 1: to make sure that the ruling body of Britain expanded. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the court as well, because

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Speaker 1: the court at the time was was was lavish and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, rather impressive to behold. But at the same

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Speaker 1: time he was horribly in debt. The likewise, the the

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Speaker 1: English military was weak, the political condition was far from stable,

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Speaker 1: where England was a relatively poor nation, and the idea

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Speaker 1: of challenging Spain, Imperial Spain in such a manner was

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Speaker 1: was highly ambitious, if not outright ridiculous. Remember, at the

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Speaker 1: time there was a there was a papal bull uh

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Speaker 1: dividing the Americas between the Spanish and the Portuguese. So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't just that England should challenge Spain, it was

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Speaker 1: that English England should challenge the papacy's division of the globe.

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Speaker 1: This was this was this was not just hey, we're

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Speaker 1: we're we're pretty awesome. We should go over and claim this.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, we This involves a leveling up of

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Speaker 1: the nation that might not be practical, and it worked

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Speaker 1: um And for his part, the way that d assisted

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Speaker 1: was with his knowledge of cartography and mathematical modeling, so

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Speaker 1: he instructed captains and pilots and the principles of mathematical navigation.

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Speaker 1: He would prepare maps for their use and he furnished

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Speaker 1: them with various navigational instruments. In the fifties and fifties

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Speaker 1: he actually advised Richard Chancellor's expedition through the North Sea

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Speaker 1: so that he could establish a trade route between England

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Speaker 1: and Moscow. And there's there's some evidence that D was,

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Speaker 1: I guess uh financially involved in that as well, like

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Speaker 1: he had he had something to gain from this um

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Speaker 1: trade route. In fIF teen seventy two, a new star

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Speaker 1: appeared and it was visible for seventeen months. Now today

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Speaker 1: we know that this was a supernova in the constellation Cassiopeia.

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Speaker 1: Uh D saw this as the signal for the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the English Protestant Empire. And so he also instructed

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Speaker 1: an expedition to discover the Northwest Passage to China in

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Speaker 1: fifteen seventies six. Now, I've talked a lot about Northwest

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Speaker 1: passages before the or d Northwest Passage and expeditions through

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Speaker 1: it before on the show, because I've done research on

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Speaker 1: the past. Um, you know, like like almost all of these,

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Speaker 1: it was totally fruitless, but it did lead to English

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Speaker 1: settlements in Canadian North America. And this is where it

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Speaker 1: gets crazy. Deformed his own company to colonize the Americas,

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Speaker 1: and there's some evidence that he was the intellectual force

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Speaker 1: behind Francis drake circumnavigation of the globe, and D would

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Speaker 1: be awarded rights to any new newly discovered land that

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Speaker 1: was north of the fiftieth parallel. If Drake had gone

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Speaker 1: any further north than Oregon, this basically would have given

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Speaker 1: him all of Canada. So D would have like, if

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Speaker 1: this had all worked out, D would own Canada. How

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Speaker 1: different might Canadian history be if it had been founded

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Speaker 1: by a wizard right exactly? Um, And you know we

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Speaker 1: talked about this in the last episode. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: D moved his family to crack up Poland and three.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it had to do with the whole

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Speaker 1: angela communication thing and Lasky and and Kelly as we

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Speaker 1: previously described, but some believed that the whole reason he

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Speaker 1: was there was actually to act as a spy. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And when the Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph the Second suspected

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Speaker 1: D that's when he was banished from the empire, and

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Speaker 1: he went to a small town called Trebonn in at

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Speaker 1: what the time was southern Bohemian I imagine now it's

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Speaker 1: probably part of the Czech Republic or maybe Slovakia. But

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Speaker 1: um uh, this is fascinating. That's what gets him kicked

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Speaker 1: out when, as we know from last episode, he just

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Speaker 1: basically went up to Rudolph and was like, hey, angels

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Speaker 1: told me you're possessed by demons. And Rudolph was like whatever.

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Speaker 1: But then he's like, maybe this guy's a spy and

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Speaker 1: he gets rid of him. Now here's a really fun factor.

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Speaker 1: You're ready, everybody. D signed his letters to Elizabeth as

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Speaker 1: double O seven. Yeah, a secret sign of cipher that

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Speaker 1: at least looked like double os. Yeah. So I mean

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if that's where um uh Ian Fleming got

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Speaker 1: the idea for double seven from or if it's maybe

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Speaker 1: an actual has a historical precedence. So I've read two

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Speaker 1: different versions of this. One is that Ian Fleming was

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Speaker 1: reading about John D at the time directly got this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this idea from these writings. And I've also read some

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Speaker 1: people cast doubt on this whole connection that oh, well,

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Speaker 1: actually John D didn't really use double A seven. So um,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly where the truth lies there somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the middle. But but we will get back to

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Speaker 1: this whole spying thing, this whole espionage thing, because as

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Speaker 1: incredible as everything has been thus far, um, it really

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Speaker 1: gets crazier in the episode where we're not even talking

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Speaker 1: about angelic communication all that weight. Okay, why don't we

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and when we come back, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about the cryptography aspects of the career. What

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Speaker 1: happens to our digital lives when we're gone? Could our

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Speaker 1: online personalities be brought back to life? What could artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence do when combined with saved digital memories. A new

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Speaker 1: podcast from ge podcast theater Impanoply, the creators of last

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Speaker 1: year's award winning The Message, explores those very questions. The

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Speaker 1: story follows Ross Barnes, at low level employee at the

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Speaker 1: FBI who spends his days conversing online with his wife, Charlie,

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Speaker 1: who died eight months ago. But the technology behind this

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Speaker 1: digital resurrection leads Ross down a dangerous path that threatens

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Speaker 1: his job, his own life, and maybe even the world.

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Speaker 1: The title of the series is Life After. That's all

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00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 1: one word. It's ten episodes in length. Listen, subscribe and

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Speaker 1: download it today. Alright, we're back. So cryptography the the study,

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Speaker 1: the creation and the breaking of codes and ciphers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we we've already covered this slightly. But D was

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Speaker 1: taken with the work of German abbot Trithemius uh and

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Speaker 1: he was an important figure in the history of cryptography

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Speaker 1: as well as occultism. And in fifteen sixty four, while

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Speaker 1: D was in Antwerk, he tracked down a copy of

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Speaker 1: truths most famous work, The stick I'm gonna get this wrong,

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Speaker 1: the Stagana of Grafia and copied it. Now, you were

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Speaker 1: telling me that there is this like whole weird thing

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Speaker 1: about the copying of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's pretty strange. So certainly Trithemius was a big deal again,

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Speaker 1: important figure in the history of cryptography and occultism and

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Speaker 1: uh and and D was already a fan. He owned

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Speaker 1: several copies of his of his book Polygraphia, which was

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Speaker 1: the first printed book about the subject of cryptography. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not to say, you know, certainly not the first book.

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Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that there was there was an

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Speaker 1: Arabic book that that was already out there in the world,

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Speaker 1: and this book was by a man by the name

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Speaker 1: of al Kindy. But this was the first that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, certainly the first Western tone dealing with cryptography. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They were twelve rotating paper, a cipher discs embedded within

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Speaker 1: the pages, and even today they're in remarkably good condition.

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Speaker 1: They still turn. Uh. So it was a pretty phenomenal book.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of thinking of I don't think you've seen

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Speaker 1: this movie yet, but that Doctor Strange movie came up.

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Speaker 1: You saw it, Yeah, you know, the library and that

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Speaker 1: that's what I'm imagining. Yeah, yeah, very much. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: certainly there's a lot of like circular devices and and

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Speaker 1: glyphs that should pop up in that movie that that

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Speaker 1: feel right at home in the world of John D.

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Speaker 1: Except not glowing and spinning in the air, right unless

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Speaker 1: you're talking to Edward Kelly and he will say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can see those disks probably. Uh so, Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: finds out there's a copy of Steganographia out there, which

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Speaker 1: was a rare book. It was an essentially an an

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Speaker 1: abandoned work of the Athenius is because it dealt with,

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Speaker 1: at least on the surface, dealt with angelic communication. It

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Speaker 1: dealt with communing with spirits and using spirits to relay

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Speaker 1: messages over vast distances. Okay, hold on a second, I

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Speaker 1: think I've got a theory here. Let's see if this

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Speaker 1: plays out as we're talking more about Trithemius. What if

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Speaker 1: so we know that D was really into Trithemius, and

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Speaker 1: then he gathered all of this information before he met

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Speaker 1: Edward Kelly. What if Edward Kelly was using Trithmius to

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Speaker 1: create his version of a Nokian that eventually D wrote

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Speaker 1: down and and and hearkened as the angelic language. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: maybe that's it. It sounds it sounds compelling to me.

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Speaker 1: I guess I should probably say a little more about

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Speaker 1: Trithemius before I by go any any further here. But

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Speaker 1: this guy alone was pretty fascinating. This was the man

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Speaker 1: who served as advisors to emperors, was among the most

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Speaker 1: erudite German book collectors of his time, author of more

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Speaker 1: than fifty books himself, and the founder of scientific bibliography.

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Speaker 1: He was, as previously noted, the first printed author on

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Speaker 1: the subject of cryptography in the West. And um and

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Speaker 1: yet then here's this book, this seems to be devoted

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Speaker 1: to angelic magic that he was forced to and in

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Speaker 1: writing because he was talking to other people about it

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Speaker 1: and they were like, Oh, I don't know about about

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Speaker 1: this book you're working on Acthemius. Uh. Even as he

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Speaker 1: was making writing it, he made claims that the text

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Speaker 1: would enable communication over vast distances, to communicate one's thoughts

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Speaker 1: by fire and other claims. So basically, like like other

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Speaker 1: individuals hearing about this, they were like like, well, this

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Speaker 1: means this makes it sound like either you're lying or

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Speaker 1: you're a demonic sorcerer, right smiled upon Yeah, not so

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Speaker 1: much in the uh, in the church. So the crazy

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Speaker 1: thing is that over the centuries, it's been revealed that

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Speaker 1: all three volumes of this work are concerned with cryptography,

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Speaker 1: the most and most recently volume three. So pretty early

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Speaker 1: on commentators figured out, all right, well, these first two

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Speaker 1: books are only like surface level about angelic magic. They're

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Speaker 1: really about cryptography and codes and ciphers. But they thought

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Speaker 1: for the longest, well, this third book, though, this just

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Speaker 1: seems to be about magic. There's no code here. Um

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of a fitting read for the life

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Speaker 1: of John d. The idea of like, at what point

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Speaker 1: does the magic become the main thing? But here's the

340
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Speaker 1: crazy part. This only this a view of the third

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Speaker 1: book of Steconographia only lasted until the late nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 1: That's when two individuals experienced unrelated breakthroughs and cracking it

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Speaker 1: German linguist Thomas Ernst and Jim Reid's, who is working

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Speaker 1: in the mathematics and cryptography research department at A T

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Speaker 1: and T. That this is Wait, so A T and

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Speaker 1: T paid for somebody to research this old book on

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Speaker 1: Angela communication and cryptography. Well, it's uh, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if he did. I'm not certain if he did. This

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Speaker 1: part on the A T and D died, but reads

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Speaker 1: is a guy who's subsequently written a few different books

351
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Speaker 1: on this and other D related works. Um and uh.

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Speaker 1: He he wrote about about this particular work in summing

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Speaker 1: it up with the following uh, which is I think

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Speaker 1: rather illuminating as we continue to look at these obsessions quote.

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Speaker 1: The question now is why did Trimetheus so thoroughly embrace

356
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Speaker 1: the rhetoric of magic for such a non magical as

357
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Speaker 1: we regarded purpose. Did he regard cryptography as inherently magical

358
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Speaker 1: or was his choice of the language that language a

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Speaker 1: solution to the stylistic problem that all authors of cryptographic

360
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Speaker 1: exposition have to solve, how to sustain the reader's interest

361
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Speaker 1: through example after example of usually tedious plain texts, possibly

362
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Speaker 1: tedious explanations of cryptographic techniques, and always tedious cipher texts.

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Speaker 1: Trimetheus use of angel language might thus be a rhetorical

364
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Speaker 1: strategy to engage the reader's interest. If so, he was

365
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Speaker 1: vastly successful, even if he completely miss calculated how his

366
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: book would be received, because this basically, like I said that,

367
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Speaker 1: he was an important figure in in occult circles because

368
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Speaker 1: for the longest like, that's what these books look like,

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Speaker 1: That's what those books mean. If you're not breaking the

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Speaker 1: crowd the code and sort of finding the deeper symbolism

371
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Speaker 1: that the deeper purpose of the text. Yeah, so he's

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Speaker 1: he's thinking along the lines of I'm gonna write this

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Speaker 1: really groundbreaking, uh piece of linguistic science, but that's not

374
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Speaker 1: really sexy, so I'll tell everyone it's about angels. Yeah,

375
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Speaker 1: or it's like it's kind of thinking. You think about

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Speaker 1: it like this. If you have you have a grammar lesson,

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Speaker 1: what kind of sentence are you gonna use? You're gonna

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Speaker 1: use a boring sentence or an exciting one. So in

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Speaker 1: a sense, he used the exciting sentence. Uh, he put

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Speaker 1: he put a dog in a sentence. So another okay,

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Speaker 1: another theory. And again I'm no d scholar, and I

382
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: know there's lots of people out there who have poured

383
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: through his diaries, but maybe D was doing the same thing.

384
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Speaker 1: Well that that that becomes the the crazy thing to

385
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: try and figure out, like where where we're what we're

386
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 1: D's interest here? Was he interested in the magic? Was

387
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: he interested in I mean, clearly he was interested in cryptography.

388
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: He'd read his other book, That's why he sought out

389
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: this one. There was the whole wife swapping thing though,

390
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: so there is a certain amount of him actually believing

391
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: angels are telling him to do things he doesn't want

392
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: to do. It makes one think, like, at what point

393
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: in studying cryptography through the language of magic, do you

394
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 1: become kind of ensourcefuled by the magic, by the language

395
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: of of of of magic. Uh yeah, it's crazy. Now

396
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: now back to this whole expedition where he ends up

397
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: finding this copy of this rare book. So, as Benjamin

398
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 1: Willy points out in his book, this was no small accomplishment.

399
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: It was a really difficult book to steal a peek

400
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: at it was. It was banned. It was actually actually

401
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: the Church had placed it on the Index Liberalum Prohibitorum

402
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: in sixteen o nine and it remained there until nineteen hundred.

403
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,400
Speaker 1: So this was this was a this was a band book.

404
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: This was like a dark book and uh magic, Yeah,

405
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: this is this is this is a dangerous text. Uh.

406
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: So d had to spend money to travel, He probably

407
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: had to pay bribes, and he worked with a mysterious

408
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 1: nobleman of Hungary who required that the in turn quote

409
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: pleasure him with such points of science as he requireth

410
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: that that sounds filthy. I hope it's not. I hope

411
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: it's not. Maybe he was just like performing scientific tricks

412
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: like I don't know, fire like or it kind of

413
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: sounds like you have like in this case with the

414
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: nobleman of Hungary, kind of like a rich science fanboy

415
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: who has access to something amazing and then therefore uses

416
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: it and as as an excuse to make the real

417
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: scientists slash magician hang out with him. And then on

418
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: top of this, so I mean these whole thing was

419
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: not only to look at it, not only to read it,

420
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: but to copy it so he would have his own

421
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: cop And this was a difficult book to copy because

422
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: it's it's full of tables and charts, moving parts, apparently

423
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: meaningless names, angelic language, and uh he only had ten

424
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: days to get it all copied down, likely with this

425
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: Hungarian guy just standing over over him the whole time

426
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: trying to make a small talk. Oh wow, Then you

427
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: really feel for John do when you dive into the

428
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: details here, you know, I mean, yeah, he wasn't the

429
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: greatest guy in the world. He did, you know, make

430
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: his young wife sleep with his squire at one point,

431
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: but he really seemed to be doing his best to

432
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: try to gather this information up for the benefit of

433
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: I guess, like as he saw it mankind. Yeah, yeah,

434
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: I increasingly sympathize with d through through all these adventures

435
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 1: and misadventures, increasingly more misadventures than an adventure. Right, So, yeah,

436
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: we're forced to try to understand the role of this

437
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: book really in Indeed's life and what his his obsession

438
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: with this book tells us about his life. A book

439
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: that is at once both concerned with purely with codes

440
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: and also concerned with with very strange magical concepts, with

441
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: very esoteric concepts. I imagine he kept this in the

442
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: internal part of his uh, his sanctum sanctis was this

443
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: was definitely an inner library product. Here. Now, according to

444
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: to contemporary cryptologists Simon singh Um, it's important to note

445
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 1: here that UH that you know, encryption had been around

446
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: for a while. He particularly mentions that al Kindi book

447
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier, UH in the simplest forms, encryption

448
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: is about swapping letters for symbols and the use of

449
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: frequency analysis to break it. And by the Elizabethan era,

450
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: UH cryptography was already getting a bit more advanced. This

451
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: was again a time of plots, espionage, deep political intrigue,

452
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: and encryption UH was was an important tool. Code making

453
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: and code breaking was very much a part of the

454
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: the actual game of thrones of the day. One example

455
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: that seeing it throws out is just considered the intrigue

456
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: surrounding Mary, Queen of Scott's. She wanted to take the

457
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: English throne, so Elizabeth imprisoned her, but she used But

458
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: then Mary used coded messages that she sent out to

459
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: her co conspirators looking to work with the Spanish to

460
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 1: put her on the throne instead of Elizabeth. Chief codebreaker

461
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: Thomas Phillips. Uh, this is Elizabeth's. A codebreaker came along.

462
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: He broke this code she was using, and he broke

463
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: it easily because she was using an outdated, simple form

464
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: of cipher. So Mary was found out, she was tried,

465
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: she was executed in seven So this serves as an

466
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: example that the codes, the making of the use of codes,

467
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: and the breaking of them was life and death. Yeah,

468
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: especially when you consider, like how much of this story

469
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: that we've already told has involved political actors traveling around Europe. Uh,

470
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: suspected of being spies, but you know, basically just saying

471
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: like either like oh, I'm just here to see the

472
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: sites or I'm here to scrib crystals and talk to

473
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: angels or whatever. Right, Um, So, code and cryptography would

474
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: be essential to them passing messages back and forth either

475
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: from their home countries or to their associates in these

476
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: these other empires. That's right, So we're going about to

477
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: take another break. Uh. But as we take the break,

478
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: think to yourself, which which is better? Is you're out

479
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: traveling around continental Europe to be found out and accused

480
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: as a spy or a magician? Which which is the

481
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: more dangerous scenario? Hey, everybody, with the holidays almost here,

482
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483
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,120
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484
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: everyone mailing holiday gifts and packages. So you need to

485
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486
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487
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488
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,080
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489
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490
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491
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492
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493
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494
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495
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496
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497
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498
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499
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500
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,840
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501
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502
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: stamps dot com before you do anything else. Click on

503
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,240
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504
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: in stuff that stamps dot com, Enter stuff and start

505
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: mailing things. All right, we're back. Okay. So we asked

506
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: which was better to be accused of being a spy

507
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: at the time or a magician. Now, given what we

508
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: know about how many people accepted quote magic as being

509
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 1: a part of not I wouldn't say daily life, but like,

510
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: uh uh the sciences. Probably being accused of being a

511
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: spy was worse. I think there's there's less ambiguity, isn't

512
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: there Because if you can you imagine you're you're accused of,

513
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: oh you're trying to speak to angels and you have

514
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: all this angelic language, you know, depending on some individuals

515
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: would certainly be very quick to condemn you and say, well,

516
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: you're practicing horrible magic and this is bad, but there's

517
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: seems like you have a certain amount of wiggle room there. Yeah, well,

518
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean consider d zone case. Right. He goes to

519
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: the Holy Roman Emperor and he says, angels told me

520
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: you're possessed by demons, and the guy was like whatever.

521
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,239
Speaker 1: But then they think he might be a spy. Kick

522
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: him out of the country. Yeah at least, right, I mean,

523
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: or or throw him into a dungeon, execute him, etcetera.

524
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: So so that's the the the the question that one

525
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,479
Speaker 1: raises here was John the a spy? The answer kind

526
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: of varies because it seemed undoubtedly he played a role

527
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: in introducing some some concepts in cryptography to his Elizabethan masters.

528
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: He had a great cover story. Yeah, he did a

529
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: cover story. That's the other thing. To what extent is

530
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: this a guy who end up buying into his cover story,

531
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: like he went so deep cover that he himself had

532
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: vast difficulties uh re emerging and returning to Relizabeth in England.

533
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: Uh Yeah, It's it's difficult to piece it together because

534
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: we have a guy here who seems to have been

535
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: a pretty serious Christian, but he was also engaged in

536
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: all of this, Uh, these occult interests. We have a

537
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 1: guy who believed mathematics was the key to unlocking the

538
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: secrets of the universe, who studied cryptography, who advised Queen

539
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First, who traveled rather extensively throughout Europe during

540
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: a time of plots, political unrest, in war, and so yeah,

541
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: this has led some his stories to ponder weather, uh well,

542
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: not really whether, but to what degree John d was

543
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: engaged in the espionage of the day. As early as

544
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: the seventeenth century English polly math Robert Hoke suggested that

545
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: these Book of the Spirits was actually a book of

546
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: code rather than an account of angelic conversations, and that

547
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: it would be to go back to our our previous question,

548
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: that it would be far better to be charged with

549
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: being a quote, pretend enthusiast rather than a real spy. Yeah,

550
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: you know, I'm starting to lean more and more towards

551
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: that as a theory. Here's another interesting, uh tidbit. Following

552
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: these um copying of the Steganographia in fifteen sixty three,

553
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: he certainly wrote to William Cecil that's Queen Elizabeth's key

554
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: minister at the time, uh, and who was just beginning

555
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: to put in place the espionage network that, under his predecessor,

556
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: the spy master Francis so Walshingham um would become one

557
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: of the most formidable and effective um uh spy systems,

558
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 1: sp and our systems in Europe. So we're talking about

559
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: the origins of M I. S X. Basically, basically, yeah,

560
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: like the he he he wrote in writing to Cecil,

561
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: he's writing to one of the one of two key individuals, Yeah,

562
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: and laying the groundwork for a vast network of spies,

563
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: a vast coded network of spies. It depended on Coats

564
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: d wrote to Cecil, apparently with great enthusiasm, telling him

565
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 1: that this book was quote the most precious jewel that

566
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: I have yet of other men's travails recovered, and that

567
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: it would benefit quote the advancement of good letters and

568
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 1: wonderful divine and secret sciences. So Benjamin Woolley and his

569
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: book notes that that Cecil was a very practical conservative

570
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: sort of fellow, and not the kind of guy to

571
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: put a lot of stock in occult rituals. He was religious.

572
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: He probably believed in spirits, you know, in kind of

573
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: an abstract sense of the word that he wasn't gonna

574
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: go rattling off a list of angel names or anything.

575
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: So the secret sciences that we're talking about here might

576
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: very well refer to interest far more earthly, uh, far

577
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: more espionage related than anything to do with you know,

578
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: angelic communication. So maybe D was duping Kelly. Yeah, like

579
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: he used a known occultists, alchemist criminal as his companion

580
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: for ten years, possibly so that he could travel around

581
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: and pretend like he was doing these rituals when in

582
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: fact he was up to something a little bit more concrete. Yeah,

583
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: it's I think one of the difficult things in trying

584
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,800
Speaker 1: to figure out someone like D is we kind of

585
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: look for this not certain not maybe not a simple interpretation,

586
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: but we want to a solid interpretation. And I guess

587
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: the the way I keep trying to make sense of

588
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: it is to think, all right, every one of us

589
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: has a fairly complex worldview, a lot of contradictions, a

590
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: lot of I we believe in various ideas simultaneously even

591
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: though they don't match up, and we all have you know,

592
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna generalize here, and let's say, let's say

593
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: we all have very fairly normal brains, and D had

594
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: an abnormal brain. D was a brilliant man, one of

595
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: the most brilliant men of his day, and therefore perhaps

596
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: his contradictions were just that that much greater, that much stranger,

597
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: that much more out of proportion to what the rest

598
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: of us live with. Yeah, I think I can see

599
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: where you're going with this, That there's there's a little

600
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: bit of truth to all of this. Yeah, that's that's

601
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: that's where I keep coming coming back to, because it's

602
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: it's tempting to say, oh, well, he was only in

603
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 1: it for the he was only in it for the codes.

604
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: He was a spy the whole time. He wasn't duped

605
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: by this this this weird Edward Kelly character. Uh, he was.

606
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: He was the secret the secret master the whole time.

607
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: But as as Willie Wright said, D didn't see uh

608
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: the steganographia as a purely diplomatic or political tool like

609
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: based on his writings, he he clearly considered it to

610
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 1: have far more esoteric uses. He believed that the cryptography

611
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: could help him decipher other ancient texts, such as the

612
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: Book of Siga, an anonymous tone that he believed to

613
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: have been written in the in the the Anochian language,

614
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: and another was a book that was attributed to Roger Bacon,

615
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: the Voiage Manage, which is still yet to be deciphered. Yeah.

616
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: Voyage Manuscript is something that comes up a lot around here.

617
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I I know several of our other shows

618
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: here have done episodes on it and how stuff works,

619
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: like a pretty long Windage Manuscript article as well. Um yeah,

620
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: so maybe maybe d Then he's playing all sides for

621
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 1: his own and interests, you know, like he believes in

622
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 1: the angel stuff, but he's also playing it out for

623
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: this code stuff. He has interests in mathematics and discovering

624
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: the origins of the universe, in bettering the English Empire,

625
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: and all of those coincide with talking to angels and

626
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: spycraft and assisting trade agencies and being a courtier to

627
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: the queen. It's all it's all very I mean, it's

628
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: alien to us from present day perspective. Yeah, but it

629
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: does it does seem seem to be the case that

630
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: it was all connected to him. Yeah. This was this

631
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: was the world that he lived, and he lived in

632
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: a world in which the British Empire had great things

633
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: ahead of it, that things were cosmically aligned for it

634
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 1: that he himself was kind of the the second coming

635
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: of Merlin, that that that mathematics was the key to

636
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: to understanding and manipulating the forces in the world around him,

637
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: and that you could you could use some of these

638
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: properties to communicate with essentially extra dimensional beings who would

639
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: reveal the secrets of science to you. It's not like

640
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: he was looking to cast fireballs and lightning bolts. He

641
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: just wanted to know how the world worked. He was

642
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: he was he was endlessly curious. Huh. And that's John

643
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: d the Good Doctor. So you know, he's got this

644
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: reputation now that's endured as an astrologer and a magician.

645
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: But I think you know what we should get out

646
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: of these two episodes should be remembered that D was

647
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: an accomplished mathematician and he influenced the field as well

648
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: as physics, music, philosophy, optical theory, and mechanical engineering. I

649
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 1: mean he really Robert and I were talking about this

650
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: outside of the studio. I mean, he was very influential

651
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: in the history of the world in a lot of ways. Uh.

652
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: We remember him as being this deluded guy who could

653
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: talk to angels, but he contributed to your European Intellectual History.

654
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: There's actually an organization called the John D Society, uh

655
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: that I found in my searching around. It's an organization

656
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: dedicated to producing standard editions of his work, and they're

657
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: trying to reconstruct his library. So they're assembling an archive

658
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: of this material as they find it on microfilm, although

659
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: I imagine, uh that they're probably scanning it in digitally

660
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 1: at this point. And I'd like to leave us with

661
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: a quote from one of the books that I was

662
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,280
Speaker 1: consulting by R. W. Baron, is called a reputation History

663
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: of John D. The Life of an Elizabethan Intellectual, and

664
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: he says, four centuries after his death, we are still

665
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: debating and wrestling with where D's work fits into the

666
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: Elizabethan world picture and what contributions, if any, he made

667
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: to those intellectual advancements. So there we have it. I mean,

668
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: he's a fascinating fellow. He seems to have influenced our sciences.

669
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: He's perfect for for stuff to blow your mind. You know.

670
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 1: He's got a little bit of the weirdness of the bizarre,

671
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: bringing it into his understanding of the world, bringing wonder

672
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: to these things, and then simultaneously using things that we

673
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: now consider every day like optics or cartography or or

674
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: or just basic math. Uh, in the same respect. Yeah,

675
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's just amazing that he's one of

676
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: these guys that we know a fair amount about, and

677
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: yet you the more you read about him, the more

678
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: you just ask who who was this guy? You know

679
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: what he was? He he really liked what what what

680
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: was the world he saw when he looked out the window,

681
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 1: you know? And uh, yeah, it's just just an amazing character.

682
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 1: So it's been a great pleasure to to research him

683
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: and discuss him here on the podcast. Yeah, I for one,

684
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: next time I'm in London, I am definitely gonna go

685
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: to the British Museum and trying to get a look

686
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: at some of those occult artifacts. And I'd really like

687
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: to visit the site of more Lake. I kind of

688
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: see what it's like to from looking at Google Maps,

689
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it's that far southwest of London. So, uh, hey,

690
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: anybody out there, have you been there? Have you seen

691
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: this stuff in the British Museum? Maybe you know? Uh,

692
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: Like I said at the top of all of this,

693
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: there's so much research into John d that maybe you

694
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: know there's stuff that we don't know about that we

695
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: missed here. Maybe there's something you'd like to add that

696
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: we could read in a future listener mail episode. Uh,

697
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: you can hit us up on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, or Instagram,

698
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: and don't forget to visit stuff to Blow your Mind

699
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: dot com, which is our landing site where we'll have

700
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 1: images of the company of this episode, as well as

701
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: all of the blog posts and all of the videos

702
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: and all the other podcasts that we do here. Oh

703
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: and real quick, on a personal note, I just want

704
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: to thank my my cousin father be Price, for suggesting

705
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: research into these life and studies. Yeah, thank you, y.

706
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: This was this was really a pleasure, all right. So

707
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with the old

708
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: fashioned way, put aside the your your very scrying instruments,

709
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: put aside the magic mirror, and to simply send us

710
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: an email I blow the Mind and how stuff Works

711
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this than thousands of other topics.

712
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot Com? Remember