WEBVTT - Brad Stone 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.400 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob West That's podcast. 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.000 I guess today Brad Still he works for Bomberg from 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.040 He is the Amazon it with a definitive book on Amazon, 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:24.200 The Everything Store, and he's got a brand new bestseller 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:29.240 Amazon Unbound. Brad, glad to have you here, Bob, great 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:31.440 to see you, Thanks for having me. Okay, you're talking 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.279 the book. How you got access? How did you get 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.640 all this access? Because when you write negative things about 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.640 the Amazon, well, look, I mean I I don't view 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.920 myself as a as a critic of the company. I'm 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:48.400 almost a historian. I'm trying to tell the story and 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.560 that's both the accomplishments and the real reasons to scrutinize 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:53.920 the company. But um, just to back up, you know, 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:56.640 I wrote a previous book about the company, The Everything Store, 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:00.280 in two thousand thirteen. It was the origin story. Jeff 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.680 Bezos didn't particularly like it. You might recall some some 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.880 negative reviews from his family members and close colleagues. But yes, right, um, 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:11.559 but but you know, over the years, it's it has 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.759 become I think the definitive history of the company. And 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.720 when I reconsidered, you know, whether there was more story 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:20.840 to tell. In two thousand and seventeen, I approached the company. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:22.720 I said that I felt like, you know, the the 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:26.520 last decade had been, if anything, more interesting than the 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.760 than the original, uh you know, fifteen years, and that 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.600 I wanted to write another installment. And I also think 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.040 Bob that Amazon change it was. It had been a 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:40.360 very secretive, cloistered company up there in Seattle, and to 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.360 some in some in many respects it's still very secretive. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.319 But I think there was an understanding that if they 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:48.760 didn't tell their story, if they didn't allow journals to 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:51.080 tell their story, then that wasn't going to go very 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.560 well for them. And so you know, they did allow 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.320 me to talk to fifteen or so senior executives. Bezos 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.559 so didn't talk to me. There there are some still 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:02.720 some is there perhaps from the first book, but you know, 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:04.520 I got I got a lot of access, and then 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.160 the foundation of the new book. It's really just the 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.960 volumes of interviews with employees who have come and gone 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.240 or still they're talking um, you know, on background, sharing 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.519 what they what they saw, what they think of the 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.200 company there, and their experiences, the things that they're proud 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.520 of and the things that they, you know, wish the 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.240 company did it differently, and that's really the foundation of 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:26.720 both books. Now that the book is out, what has 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:32.239 the reaction been from inside Seattle, Amazon, HQ, etcetera. Well, 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:36.800 there are no one star reviews, so I suppose that's nice. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.800 Um there There really has been no official reaction. I 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.679 will say informally, I've heard from employees and executives of 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.720 Amazon who who feel like that, you know that the 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.200 story that I got the story right, that it accurately 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:55.160 captures the the innovation that went into products like Alexa, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:58.720 the determination of Bezos, but also the way in which 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.640 the company has built systems such as the global marketplace 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.720 and the transportation network, maybe without a lot of regard 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.680 for what some of the consequences might be. And then 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.480 if when we can talk about that, but then if 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.640 they've had to go back and kind of repair some 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:14.880 of those and the way in which the company has 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.200 kind of graduated into a whole new realm of scrutiny 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.720 and skepticism, and Bezos in particular, I think has come 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.639 under a lot of that criticism. So you know, I 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.320 probably not hearing the bad stuff, but for what I 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.920 have heard from from employees and executives has been favorable. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.240 Well usually always here from an employee that got something wrong, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.600 whether you did or not, you know that I have gotten. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.360 I've gotten a couple of those I should. So what 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:45.880 we know is that Bezos will be stepping down and 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.280 the new person coming in, JOSSI made his bones in 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:53.320 a ws To what degree, aid, do you think this 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:56.560 will change the company and be to what degree do 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:01.680 you project that Bezos will still be involved? So the 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.600 change every date they've announced is July five, and that 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.960 is when Jeff Bezos will no longer be CEO and 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:13.120 Andy Jesse will be But in in many respects, Bezos 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.800 has been pulling away from Amazon for many years. And 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.279 that's part of the story that I'm telling in this book. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.880 He buys the Washington Post, he's fighting with the Trump administration, 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:25.760 he has his tangle with the National Enquirer, and of 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.599 course the formation of philanthropies, and he's allowing Andy Jasse 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:32.880 and the executives on the retail side to run these 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.520 massive Amazon businesses with a lot of autonomy and and 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.479 so that's been a gradual process, and I think it 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.760 will continue to be a gradual process. Bezos his executive chairman. 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.080 He says he's going to continue to work on new 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.520 projects at Amazon. He said in his last investor letter 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.000 that he's going to be rethinking Amazon's relationship with its 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.680 blue collar employees and trying to make that a kinder relationship. 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.159 And so I suspect that not a lot actually changes. Uh. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.000 Andy Jasse will certainly be the figurehead he'll be, I think, 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.520 maybe to the consternation of regulators and lawmakers, when they 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:08.960 ask for Jeff Bezos, they will get Andy Jasse, and 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:13.160 much the same way Google now gets presents Sundar Pachai 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.599 and not the founders Larry Pager, Sergey Brand. But I 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:20.320 think Bezos will continue to be involved, and I think 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.560 but I think the process will continue gradually, and in 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.520 a couple of years we might see him drop the 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.359 executive part of that title executive chairman, and then really 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.440 move on to other things. But I don't. I don't 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:34.000 think much actually changes at Amazon other than the very 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.440 public and visible figure of Andy Jasse taking over CEO. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.600 To what do you degreed? You believe these changes were 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.599 engendered by his relationship with his new girlfriend, Lawrence Sanchez. 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:49.880 In terms of the his his on a lot of levels, 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:56.040 but here talking about stepping down. I don't think so. Again, 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:58.479 part of the story in this book is is Bezos 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:00.880 stepping away from the big business. This is an Amazon, 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:05.320 and that process was under way before the relationship started. 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:08.800 So I don't know if it was a precipitating factor 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.080 in the timing. I will say in the book I 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:16.320 revealed that Bezos is building this massive super yacht to 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:19.800 sail the high seas on my suspicion because he was 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.800 never a yacht guy. That that is the the you know, 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.080 part of the influence of his partner, Um, and so 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.840 his evolution into a famous figure someone who's turning up 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.640 at courtside at Wimbledon or partying on the yacht of 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:39.040 of Barry Diller, David Geffen, that that is in part 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:42.160 the influence of of Laurence Sanchez. He is he has 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.719 been taking helicopter flying lessons. There's a lot of things 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:49.039 I think that Um, maybe she has influenced him, But 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.560 in terms of the CEO role, I think this was 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:54.560 probably all always in the in the long term plans, 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.600 and Andy Jasse has been in some ways as close 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.400 to a disciple as you can get. He was basis 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.560 is t a or shadow basically as chief of staff 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:06.760 now twenty years ago, and he has been in the 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:08.920 aw s business. But he's also been a member of 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.960 the S team Andy Jasse, which means he's weighing in 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.680 on every big decision that has been made at the company, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.800 from acquisitions, the acquisition of Whole Foods to the decision 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.280 on where to put HQ two. So it's not like 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.720 Jesse has really been a stranger to this bigger part 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.160 of Amazon, the retail side. He's he has been quite 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.920 involved in it. Okay, let's just staying with this, Lauren 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.960 Sanchez changes you know that blew up at Piccaba tabloid issue. 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.440 You certainly cover that in the book. But the divorce 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.960 he that Jeff had with Mackenzie was relatively smooth and 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:44.320 she's even gotten remarried ding Bezos has not, whereas Gates, 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.720 the whole situation blew up and is continuing in the news. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:53.720 Do you feel that from the company's perspective, bezos perspective, 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.200 the business and world perspective, and those could be multiple 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:01.520 viewpoints that this is now in the rear view mirror 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.080 or people still judging him for this, and there might 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:10.720 be another few shoes to drop. I think folks have 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.320 pretty much moved on. And it might have been it's 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.600 It might be a symbol of his absolute sort of 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:20.040 mastery of the levers of public relations in that he 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.360 he so swiftly put it behind him and vanquished his rivals. 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.840 If you remember about the editor of the National Inquirer 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:31.040 who published that story, um was fired afterwards. You know, 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.720 Bezos wrapped himself up in the mantle of the Washington Post, 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:40.040 used the Saudi enmity toward the Washington Post and towards 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.880 his ownership of it as as kind of a weapon, 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.079 and imputed political motives to the Inquirer. And as I 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.239 show in the book, there really weren't any. The Inquirer 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.320 was was writing about writing a story that Lawrence Sanchez's 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.560 brother had had given him and trying to embarrass the 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.160 wealthiest person in the world. But Bezos really turned the 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:03.400 tables on them. He posted that famous Medium article. Uh, 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:07.079 he accused them of extortion, and the Southern District of 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.520 New York investigated it. The FBI investigated it and and 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:14.120 moved on. Didn't didn't really find anything. So but are 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.720 there other shoes to drop? I mean, I wanna approach 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.440 this topic with a little bit of humility. It is 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.120 such a crazy topic. The cast of characters you can't 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.800 even fathom is so bizarre. It's a hall of mirrors. 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.880 I concluded, based on the information that's in the court filings, 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.560 based on people that I talked to, the testimony of 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.560 the reporters and editors at the Inquirer, that it really 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.320 was Michael Sanchez delivering them the text, messages and some 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.840 images in the fall of two thousand and eighteen, and 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:44.560 that's how they got the story. But if you're asking, 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:49.079 could could we find out something unfathomable about the Saudi 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:52.400 government's hack of his cell phone, tipping off the paper, 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:56.560 or some Trump World connection that we we can't possibly guess, 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.120 I would say it's improbable, but I want to leave 0:09:59.160 --> 0:10:01.720 open the possible ality for it, and I hope, hopefully 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.120 do a little bit in the book, because this story 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:06.240 has taken so many twists and turns that you don't know. 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.800 But I would say if something else emerged, it would 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:13.360 probably contradict the information and the timeline that we already 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.680 have established in the court files, where the editors and 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.640 reporters of the National Enquirers say, in September two, eighteen, 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.920 Michael Sanchez approached them with this tip and they knew 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:25.960 nothing about it beforehand, and in fact afterwards have to 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.120 had to kind of read into the tea leaves because 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.280 he wasn't being explicit. So this idea that perhaps they 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.599 were tipped off severally about the Saudi government would be surprising, 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.240 It would It would contradict a lot of the established evidence. 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.559 Let's go back to Bezos and him splitting from the company. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:46.160 In the book, he's really the driving force for innovation. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.480 He is the one who's pushing the envelope with the 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.320 moon shots. He's actually in space. But I'm using that 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.960 in a business sense. Do you believe he will continue 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.880 to play that role? And to what degree is the 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.000 culture of the company, So if he's not doing it, 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.440 someone else might. It's a great question. And in the 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:09.960 book I am telling the origin stories of products like 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:13.640 Alexa and and the Ghost Store, of those cashier less supermarkets, 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.800 and they all start they typically start with a Bezos idea. 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.320 And in fact, if the Alexa project starts with an 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.160 email from Bezos to his deputies, we should build a 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.040 twenty dollar computer whose brains are in the cloud that's 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:28.959 completely controllable by your voice. And I have the first 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.000 Bezos whiteboard drawing of the product that becomes the the 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.800 Echo or an Alexa. And so when you peel back 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.200 the layers to a lot of these projects inside Amazon, 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.720 not only do you often find a Bezos idea, but 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.000 you find that it was his sponsorship, his maniacal attention, 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:51.320 his willingness to invest uneconomically in the seeds of an 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.560 idea and then to and then to follow through spending money, 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.600 losing money, risking failure. That is kind of key to 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.480 the inventiveness. And am on and I think you put 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.240 your finger on on something interesting and real. They would say, 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.640 They would preach that Amazon has a culture of invention, 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.160 that it's decentralized, that employees can move quickly on their own. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.200 It's the land of a thousand CEOs. It's all by design. 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.040 But I just really wonder if in terms of at 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.520 least minting new product categories, once Bezos really does step away, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.000 and again that might not be for a couple of 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.320 years he's executive chairman, he'll be involved, but once he 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:30.520 really does step away, well, Amazon have the same ability 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.680 to strike fear and employees to go pursue big things 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:39.840 and then obviously competitors when they enter new markets. Well, historically, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.920 you know, individuals make a difference. They can't be quantified. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.360 You can get a manager who's an NBA, but someone 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:50.280 who's an entrepreneur that tends to be a unique character, 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:55.480 but staying with the company for a second. For years, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:59.400 their financials were not good. We're going back almost twenties. 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.679 Does he the worst numbers? To what degree is the 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:10.480 company playing to the street at all? Back when when 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.800 Bezos wrote that first letter to shareholders, he he kind 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.280 of called his shot. He said, We're not going to 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:18.760 really pay attention to short term metrics. We're not going 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.800 to focus on profitability. We're gonna run the company for 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:25.560 market share and cash flow. And that promise and the 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.560 patient investors that enlisted got them through many, many tough years. 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.000 And in fact, as I write in the book, even 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:37.080 in two thousand fifteen, Amazon was either losing money or 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.600 not very profitable, and Steve Ballmer went on the Charlie 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.480 Rose Show and said, it's not a real company, Charlie, 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:45.199 You've got to make money. That's my Steve Balmber impression. 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.720 Bob Um maybe needs some work, and it was because 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.520 not that Amazon was unprofitable, it was almost hiding its profits. 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.080 Bezos was taking the winnings from the retail business, the 0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:01.600 winnings from AWS and funneling them in Alexa and China 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:07.480 and India and Prime Video, and that all paid remarkable dividends. 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.000 And I think recently it's an extraordinarily profitable company. The 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.880 stock prices zoomed up. It's worth one point six trillion dollars. 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.199 And no, I don't I don't, but I don't think 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.520 the operating posture of the company has changed. I don't 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.080 think they particularly pay attention to two quarterly numbers. I mean, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120 they've got a pretty professional CFO and finance staff that 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.120 seems to be good at making projections and then exceeding them. Um. 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.720 But look, Amazon doesn't provide a dividend, it doesn't buy 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.200 back its own stock. Right, It's not doing the things 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.360 that would please more short term investors. It's it really is. 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:42.400 It continues to take its its profits and build more 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.360 fulfillment centers and buy more Prime Video. It's buying the 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:49.920 mg MGM and the catalog there, build more data centers, 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:54.200 and basically Amazon's winnings go to fund more Amazon, so 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.560 it's unlike a lot of other companies. It's still incredibly 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.680 optimistic about the future, and clearly it has not achieved 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.600 whatever maturity or end goal that it has for being ubiquitous. 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.240 And one thing you go deeply into in the book 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:13.240 is the organizational structure. You know, Bezos basically has the 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.360 guy who shadows him. Sounds like a low position, but 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.320 it's really a privileged position. Their committees you move up. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:27.000 For those who were uninitiated, can you please describe the structure? Okay, Well, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:34.120 so the technical title is the technical assistant, and Bezos 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.440 had one. He actually hasn't for a couple of years, 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.240 which might have been a sign that he was ready 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.920 for the CEO transition. But the others, the other members 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.880 of the leadership team, the s team, they all have 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.360 their t A S and the s TEA. So everybody there, 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.600 I didn't know everybody there has a t A too. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.560 How far down the totem pole does that go or 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:56.760 is that it? I? I believe it's just the the 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.040 the the s VP is the senior vice presidents, and 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.400 maybe not even all of them. But it's my understanding 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.560 that the the the upper echelon of the company. They 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:09.360 all have tas. So for example, Beth Galletti, the senior 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:13.560 vice president of HR, she has a technical assistant, Andy 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:15.600 Jasey as the head of a w S, head of 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:17.960 t A, and of course we'll have one of CEO. 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.120 So that's interesting. It's a way in which I think 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:25.040 Amazon training. It's almost a leadership and informer leadership training 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:30.280 program where chosen executives just get bathed in the you know, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.239 the mechanics of the senior leaders and the leadership committee 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.080 at Amazon. So it's a it's an interesting training program. 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.120 But you know, think of Amazon, I guess as a 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:43.320 little bit of a conglomerate. So many disparate businesses right, 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:46.960 so much surface area to this company's it almost makes 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.760 it hard to categorize. But a senior vice president, you know, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.320 tends to kind of oversee one or several of these 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.200 business units and and they run pretty autonomously. Again the 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.920 Land of a thousand CEOs, they call them single threaded leaders, 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:03.600 a leader of the team. It's like a little CEO 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.960 of his own group. And they've got a lot of autonomy. 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.160 But they report, they push up reports, it up through 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:14.400 the organization and those have metrics and operating plans, um 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.840 competitive analysis, and all those reports filter up to the 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.080 S team. Oh and by the way, Bob, you're probably 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:24.040 familiar that all meetings, all deliberations at Amazon start with 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:27.400 the six page documents. Right. It's a very right. It's 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.800 a writing culture and editorial culture, and so the documents 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.119 flow up and then the senior leadership team obviously they 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.320 make the big strategic decisions, but they also push goals 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.520 they're called S team goals down through the organization. So 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.720 a small team in Amazon Fresh, the grocery delivery service, 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.000 and this is an example from my book, might get 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:53.280 a goal to go and produce a eclectic product there 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:55.119 there I have an example in the book called the 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.240 single cow burger. And in fact, a team gets this 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.879 directive to go produce a single cow burger, or a 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.760 burger made from the meat of just one cow instead 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.399 of a hundred uh, and to do it, you know, 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.320 by by the next quarterly review. And that's how it works. 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.040 And there are hundreds of S team goals and they 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.239 pushed down and then the teams proliferate and and they 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.200 report their progress upwards. Now we've seen a lot of history, unfortunately, 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.640 the last couple of decades with these multi furious companies 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.880 having these goals, and then the people at the bottom 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.359 or in the middle are so busy getting the goals 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:32.720 that they throw their morals right out the window. Wells 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.879 Fargo being the best case, because rather than you know, 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.320 say wait a second, this is wrong, it's unachievable, they say, 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:40.880 if I want to move up the company, I want 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.520 to get my bonus. So how does that you know? 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.959 Is that a factor you think at Amazon? Absolutely? And 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.280 in fact that the history of the company is replete 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:56.320 with low level executives in fear for their jobs, desperately 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.800 trying to meet their goals, moving fast and getting getting 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.800 to some trouble um. There's a great example in the 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:05.840 book with the marketplace segment in the in the well, 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.159 actually it's it's in the consumable segments, so the fresh 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.159 groceries and other other products that you might find at 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.080 a drug store or supermarket. And and they're running the 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.280 private label division, so it's it's their job to go 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:23.200 create Amazon Basics batteries or Amazon Essential diapers or Solomo 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.480 potato chips, and essentially they start peaking at the data 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.400 from the third party sellers to see independent sellers on Amazon, 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.040 what's doing well for them? Maybe Amazon should copy it. 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:37.040 And of course that is now put Amazon at the 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.639 center of all sorts of questioning in front of the 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.800 US Congress and the and the EU and and it's 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.240 arguably violated some antitrust laws. Well we'll see it. Amazon 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.360 has said, well, there's a policy against that. The people 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:51.679 shouldn't have been managers, shouldn't have been doing it. But 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.600 I think to your point, it's a decentralized culture with 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.439 big goals and a culture of fear. And you know 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.240 when when when you create that environment, bad things can happen. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.680 For those who have worked for Amazon, I'm not talking 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.760 about those in the warehouse, but those working in white 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:13.520 collar positions, they portray a terrible culture where they're working 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:18.000 around the clock. There's fear, there's expendable it's the opposite 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.720 of some of these other companies that you know, put 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.560 them in a blanket and make them feel warm. Is 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:29.760 that your experience? One point two million people work for Amazon. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:33.160 There there. I think it's just honest to say that 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.240 there is a wide variety of of experience, and there 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:41.000 are people that will sing the harmony of Amazon, and 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:43.480 you know, drink the kool aid and loved it there 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.440 or there for years, and and then their fair number 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:51.320 of dissidents, and you hear different things, you know, the 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:56.240 executive environment in the white collar offices, and then the warehouses. 0:20:56.280 --> 0:20:58.800 You want to talk about the warehouses predominantly not yet, 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:00.639 let's just stay with white collar. We'll go back to 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.080 the house. Well, look, I mean there are there. There 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.400 are many people that have left there with a lot 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.800 of pride. And then there are people and I profile 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:10.560 a couple of them in the book who felt like 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:12.879 it was a cruel culture, that they gave more than 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:17.000 they got, that they didn't particularly end up admiring bezos 0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:19.960 or the or the leadership team there. I I profiled 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:22.240 the woman in this book who who ran the first 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.919 Prime Day in two thousand fifteen, and she came to 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.399 sort of think that, like here she was sort of 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.360 engaged in selling people, you know, insta pots and other 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.600 appliances that perhaps they didn't need, in a kind of 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.480 frenzy of discounting. And the other thing that she really 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:37.919 took away from the experience was she had gone to 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:41.119 herculean lynx to get this thing out the door in 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.919 two thousand fifteen, the first Prime Day, and you know, afterwards, 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:47.720 they presented one of these six page documents that kind 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.520 of highlighted everything they did wrong. And so it wasn't 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:54.919 a culture of celebrating success. It was this this just 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:58.399 really driven culture of how do we get better, how 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.720 do we fix the errors that we may And she 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:04.840 found that thankless, and she she found the culture somewhat difficult. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.440 And the big epiphany for her was when she went home, 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:09.359 I think it was a couple of years after the 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.159 first Prime Day. She had taken on a number of 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:14.000 different roles, and she said that she found herself using 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:18.960 Amazon's leadership principles on her mother. They're like the crew 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.640 of the sort of you know, arduous ways that they 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:24.800 talked to each other and get to decisions. And that's 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:26.639 when she realized that the culture had changed her a 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.000 little bit in the way she didn't like. So, you know, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:34.240 all that said, Amazon remains high on the list of 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:37.280 of admired employees or places that you know, when LinkedIn 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.879