WEBVTT - Did You Know You Were a Writer?

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<v Speaker 1>Rolled Dall. He's twenty three years old.

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<v Speaker 2>As he soars through the sky, the cockpit of the

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<v Speaker 2>RAF fighter he's sitting in has no roof. He's six

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<v Speaker 2>foot six, so his head juts well up above the windshield,

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<v Speaker 2>completely exposed. His goggles offer zero protection at this speed.

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<v Speaker 2>Wind and sand and debris wire just assaulting his face.

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<v Speaker 2>He's basically blind, and every single breath is a battle.

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<v Speaker 2>He thinks he may have veered off course, has no

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<v Speaker 2>idea where he is, somewhere over the Libyan desert. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>he can't get his bearings. Blind and a chaos, just

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<v Speaker 2>desperately trying to navigate while enemy fire.

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<v Speaker 1>Tears through the air around him.

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<v Speaker 2>He can feel the vibrations of bullets wheezing past his head. Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>and Doll got inside a plane for the very first

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<v Speaker 2>time less than six months earlier. Writer Matthew Denison tells

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<v Speaker 2>us the Doll had taken off from northern Egypt this

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<v Speaker 2>evening in his pocket, classified documents pinpointing his entire squadron's location.

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<v Speaker 2>Within the hour, the desert sunset gives way the absolute

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<v Speaker 2>darkness his fuel gauge dropping, Doll realizes with growing dread

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<v Speaker 2>that he has strayed hopelessly off course, then catastrophe. The

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<v Speaker 2>underbelly of his aircraft catches a boulder hiding in the darkness.

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<v Speaker 2>Metal shrieks as the plane's nose pitches forward and crashes

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<v Speaker 2>to the ground. Crumpling like paper, Doll is catapulted against

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<v Speaker 2>the instrument panel. The impact drives his nose backward through

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<v Speaker 2>his face, His skull fractures, blood runs hot and.

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<v Speaker 1>Thick down his skin.

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<v Speaker 2>Denison writes, the doll can no longer feel where his

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<v Speaker 2>teeth should be. Disoriented, he does feel the approaching heat

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<v Speaker 2>of flames that threaten to consume both him and his aircraft.

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<v Speaker 2>His overall's already burning. Doll drags himself away from the

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<v Speaker 2>twisted wreckage as fast as he can. Each inch across

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<v Speaker 2>the sand is agony behind him. The inferno reaches the planes' ammunition.

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<v Speaker 2>Its machine guns begin firing wildly, bullets kicking up sands

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<v Speaker 2>in all directions.

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<v Speaker 1>By some miracle of chance or fate, Doll.

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<v Speaker 2>Has crawled just far enough the bullets don't find him.

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<v Speaker 2>As shock overtakes his battered body, sleep finally claims him.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's now travel back to a year before that devastating crash.

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<v Speaker 2>This is before Doll was sent to Washington, before he

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<v Speaker 2>was recruited into the Irregulars, before he spent weekends mixing

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<v Speaker 2>Martiniz with the President. Doll's just a guy in a

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<v Speaker 2>room in his early twenties, trying to figure out what

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<v Speaker 2>to do with his life. All Doll knows for sure

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<v Speaker 2>is that right now he needs to escape his family's

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<v Speaker 2>home in Buckinghamshire, which feels like a damn prison. He's

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<v Speaker 2>desperate for some adventure. Dall is someone who's always always

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<v Speaker 2>looking for adventure. It's impossible to say for certain where

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<v Speaker 2>this spirit comes from, but the tragedy of his youth

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<v Speaker 2>offers a pretty good clue. When Dall was three, his

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<v Speaker 2>seven year old sister, Astrey, died of appendicitis. The family

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<v Speaker 2>had barely processed this loss when just three weeks later,

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<v Speaker 2>Dall's father died. Technically, Doll's father died of pneumonia, but

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<v Speaker 2>he basically chose not to fight the illness because of

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<v Speaker 2>his depression over Astrey. The two deaths in a row

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<v Speaker 2>like that were an earthquake for young Doll. Buckingham Shure,

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<v Speaker 2>despite its beauty, is stained by these memories for him.

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<v Speaker 2>If you can remember the forbidden forest scenes in the

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<v Speaker 2>Harry Potter movies.

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<v Speaker 1>You've glimpsed these woods, but.

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<v Speaker 2>What appears magical on screen is suffocating to Doll. He

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<v Speaker 2>understood that if he didn't break free soon, he'd be trapped,

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<v Speaker 2>bogged down here, forced into the tedious business that his father,

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<v Speaker 2>a shipbroker, have been so successful in. Dall's desire for

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<v Speaker 2>adventure is something he shares in common with a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of great writers, desperate to experience everything in order to

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<v Speaker 2>have something to write about a plot, a character, a situation,

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<v Speaker 2>and emotion. Writers in Dolls era are expected to be

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<v Speaker 2>deeply physically engaged with the world, not just observers but participants,

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<v Speaker 2>which feels different from today right Today's writers often prioritize

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<v Speaker 2>things like activism and family and intellectual engagement over physical

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<v Speaker 2>risk taking. But physicality aside, there's no substitute for adventure

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<v Speaker 2>and new experiences in a writer's life. My creative writing

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<v Speaker 2>students at Yale always asks me how to make it

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<v Speaker 2>as screenwriters. I encourage them to go live their lives

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<v Speaker 2>a little get engaged with the world in some fashion.

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<v Speaker 2>Because young writers who just move right to la after

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<v Speaker 2>graduation and start work in an agency's mailroom all end

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<v Speaker 2>up writing scripts that feel less like real life and

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<v Speaker 2>more like echoes of TV shows they've seen. When Dahl

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<v Speaker 2>graduates school, he sets out on his first grade adventure

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<v Speaker 2>and applies to Shell Oil. I know, I know, becoming

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<v Speaker 2>a trainee at an oil company does not sound like

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<v Speaker 2>a cutting edge prospect, but back in the late thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>it is as exciting as it gets. Shell Oil is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the hottest companies in the world. Here's Tony

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<v Speaker 2>Curtis trying to woo Marilyn Monroe in Some Like It

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<v Speaker 2>Hot by masquerading as the heir to guess what company

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<v Speaker 2>I want you. Yes, so did my father and my grandfather.

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<v Speaker 2>You might say we had a passion for shows. That's

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<v Speaker 2>why we name the oil company after it. Here are you.

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<v Speaker 2>There's massive demand for oil, for butting car companies and aviation.

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<v Speaker 2>Joining Shells like joining an AI company today. And the

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<v Speaker 2>most attractive part for Doll is that you're guaranteed to

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<v Speaker 2>be said somewhere across the globe. Adventure served up in

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<v Speaker 2>a silver platter. Doll gets posted in East Africa, fully

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<v Speaker 2>aware what a commitment this is, As he points out

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<v Speaker 2>in an interview by Peter Wallace and thrill Maker from

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<v Speaker 2>Night five.

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<v Speaker 3>You see, in those days they didn't have airplanes, so

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<v Speaker 3>we're talking about nineteen thirty five. To go to someone

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<v Speaker 3>like Africa, it was a long way. It was a

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<v Speaker 3>two and a half week trip in the boat. When

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<v Speaker 3>you went, you went for three years.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's all totally thrilling.

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<v Speaker 2>Doll immerses himself in the local culture, learning Swahili and

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<v Speaker 2>enjoying the adventure of it all. He doesn't realize it,

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<v Speaker 2>but he's setting himself up for a lifetime's worth of

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<v Speaker 2>characters too. When Daal invents Charlie Bucket of chocolate factory fame,

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<v Speaker 2>he actually models him on one of the young African

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<v Speaker 2>boys he befriends in Tanzania. It's only on later drafts,

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<v Speaker 2>under pressure from his British publishers, that Charlie becomes white.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's fascinating to think how groundbreaking the book might

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<v Speaker 2>have been. Charlie's family represents extreme poverty. Remember those four

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<v Speaker 2>grandparents all sharing that one giant bed. Making them black

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<v Speaker 2>would have transformed the story into a powerful statement about

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<v Speaker 2>racial inequality, and when Charlie has his triumph at the end,

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<v Speaker 2>it could have served as a broader metaphor for overcomings

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<v Speaker 2>the stomach prejudice. Anyway, Doll's work for Shell eventually.

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<v Speaker 1>Grows tedious for him.

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<v Speaker 2>He's basically selling oil to farmers across the vastness of Tanzania.

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<v Speaker 2>Not a great deal of intelligence or imagination was required.

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<v Speaker 2>He later admits the idea of rising through the ranks

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<v Speaker 2>to become an executive someday sounds like death to him.

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<v Speaker 2>He feels the itch to keep moving. But here's what

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<v Speaker 2>I think is really driving Doll. He's trying to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out not only what kind of man he is, but

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<v Speaker 2>what it means to be a man. After Dall lost

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<v Speaker 2>his father, he was brought up by his mother and

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<v Speaker 2>his many many sisters. There were never any adult men

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<v Speaker 2>in his life. Why this is so relevant is that

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<v Speaker 2>the different worlds Doll goes into in his twenties are

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<v Speaker 2>like the most basic fantasies of what a child thinks

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<v Speaker 2>it means to be a man in the mid twentieth century.

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<v Speaker 2>First he'll tried business with Shell oil, then head to

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<v Speaker 2>war to become a fighter pilot. Then he becomes a spy,

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<v Speaker 2>a serial playboy, and seducer of women. He's trying on

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<v Speaker 2>all these different macho exteriors, seeing what fits, and I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I get it, though we're living in very different times.

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<v Speaker 2>I struggle with this too. Am I a man not

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<v Speaker 2>in the way my grandfather would recognize? I have a

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<v Speaker 2>wife and kids and a career. But with a gun

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<v Speaker 2>to my head, I could maybe tell you what pliers

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<v Speaker 2>are for. Maybe for Dahl in the late nineteen thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>World War Two is knocking some of his heroes, like

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<v Speaker 2>Hemingway and Tolkien fought in the First World War. Now

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<v Speaker 2>history is offering his chance. He hears about British forces

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<v Speaker 2>and Tanzania needing help, and he jumps at it. He

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<v Speaker 2>abandoned shell oil and enlists as a Special Constable with

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<v Speaker 2>the King's African Rifles. His assignment is to arrest any

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<v Speaker 2>German attempting to escape across the border into neutral East Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>Dahl helps detain a couple hundred Germans whose only crime

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<v Speaker 2>is being German. He moves these innocent people into a

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<v Speaker 2>camp of barbed wire to be held for who knows

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<v Speaker 2>how long. It Shakestall's conscience. This may not be the

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<v Speaker 2>adventure he's after. During the long days patrolling the border

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<v Speaker 2>and the vicious sun. Dall watches warplanes fly overhead. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that looks like freedom to him. He gets an idea.

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<v Speaker 2>He'll volunteer for the Royal Air Force, though he's never

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<v Speaker 2>even been inside a plane before.

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<v Speaker 1>He buys a car and drives six.

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<v Speaker 2>Hundred miles to Nairobi to enroll in flight training school.

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<v Speaker 2>He quickly realizes he's not a great fit. Literally, Doll

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<v Speaker 2>crams himself into Gloucester Gladiators, Tiger Boths and Hawker Hurricanes.

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<v Speaker 2>Picture the plane from Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade

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<v Speaker 2>when Harrison Ford and Sean Connery escape from German fighters.

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<v Speaker 2>These are open air cockpits designed for pilots who are

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<v Speaker 2>five foot seven to five ten.

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<v Speaker 1>At six six, Doll's head sticks way up.

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<v Speaker 2>Above the windshield like an NBA player squeezed into a

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<v Speaker 2>tiny convertible with the top down, his knees pulled up

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<v Speaker 2>to his chest, and his face constantly battered by rushing wind.

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<v Speaker 2>Despite all that, soaring up in the air, something magical happens.

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<v Speaker 2>Falls in love with flying. This passion will re emerge

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<v Speaker 2>later in his writing. Several of his young characters escape

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<v Speaker 2>their earth bound troubles by literally flying away.

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<v Speaker 1>Most famously in James and the Giant Peach.

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<v Speaker 2>The British Air Force is in such dire need of

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<v Speaker 2>fighters that Dolls quickly sent to the front lines before

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<v Speaker 2>he even completes combat training. Sixteen other newly minted pilots

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<v Speaker 2>go with him, but by war's end, only three of

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<v Speaker 2>the sixteen will survive, including Dol. That's how close we

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<v Speaker 2>were to never having heard of Willy, Wonka or Matilda.

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<v Speaker 2>According to writer Nadia Cohen, Doll's first kill comes quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>He shoots down a German plane and returns to base

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<v Speaker 2>with the sobering realization that he's probably just ended another

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<v Speaker 2>man's life. His conscience is rattled again, just like during

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<v Speaker 2>those border patrol arrests. Is he built for this. He's

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<v Speaker 2>in his early twenties, He's sensitive, thoughtful, and he knows

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<v Speaker 2>what it feels like to lose a father and sister

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<v Speaker 2>well before their time. Now he's taken the life of

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<v Speaker 2>a young stranger, someone who probably has his own father, sister, brother.

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<v Speaker 2>Dahl knows precisely what that family will endure. The next day,

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<v Speaker 2>Doll finds himself in another air battle. He shoots down

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<v Speaker 2>a second German plane, killing another pilot. He's affected, but

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<v Speaker 2>he finds it gets a bit easier to compartmentalize.

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<v Speaker 1>Two days later, in the.

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<v Speaker 2>Battle of Athens, Doll and the squadron are vastly outnumbered.

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<v Speaker 2>It'll be a miracle if any of them survive. Dahl

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<v Speaker 2>describes it as a long dog fight in which fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>hurricanes fought for half an hour with between one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty and two hundred German bombers. Four of Doll's

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<v Speaker 2>fellow pilots are shot down right before his eyes. Doll

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<v Speaker 2>spends every last bit of ammunition he carries. When he

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<v Speaker 2>finally lands back a base, his plane is riddled with

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<v Speaker 2>bullet holes. Dall ends up needing a full month to recuperate.

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<v Speaker 2>Then he hears the decimated remnants of his squadron are

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<v Speaker 2>reassembling in Haifa. More adventure awaits, Doll finds another car

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<v Speaker 2>and drives to Israel. He flies over French airbases every

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<v Speaker 2>day for the next month, according to Cohen, shooting down

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<v Speaker 2>at least two more aircraft. Doll keeps crashing his own planes,

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<v Speaker 2>but always somehow walks away until the crash that open

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<v Speaker 2>this episode, When Dol eventually writes that horrific crash into

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<v Speaker 2>his memoirs, he conspicuously excludes the fact that there was

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<v Speaker 2>another pilot with him that day in the Libyan desert.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe dolphinks having company made the whole thing less heroic

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<v Speaker 2>even more curious, official RAF records showed Doll crash landed

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<v Speaker 2>due to low fuel after getting lost, but Dallin says

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<v Speaker 2>he was shot down.

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<v Speaker 1>Hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>In both of Doll's memoirs about his childhood, he perpetuates

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<v Speaker 2>myths like this about himself. Now, to be fair, the

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<v Speaker 2>memoirs are written in the style we associate with his fiction,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's almost like a wink. Don't believe everything I'm

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<v Speaker 2>telling you, folks. Dahl has the same habit of mythmaking

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<v Speaker 2>in interviews throughout his life. Now, with some celebrities, we

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.360
<v Speaker 2>just call this straight up lying, but with Dol, I'm

0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>not sure i'd use that word.

0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.720
<v Speaker 1>It's as if he's acknowledging that people expect him.

0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.280
<v Speaker 2>To be Willy Wonka or the BFG, so they shouldn't

0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.679
<v Speaker 2>take what he says at face value. But of course

0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 2>this makes his later problematic remarks and interviews more complicated.

0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:24.280
<v Speaker 1>To deal with.

0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.840
<v Speaker 2>We'll grapple with how to reconcile Doll's dedication to defeating

0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.280
<v Speaker 2>the Nazis as a young man, which is at least

0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:34.520
<v Speaker 2>somewhat inextricable from helping save the Jews of Europe, with

0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.360
<v Speaker 2>the charges of anti Semitism against him as a much

0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:45.800
<v Speaker 2>older man. For weeks after Doll's crash in the Libyan desert,

0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:48.839
<v Speaker 2>he lies in a military hospital, unable to even open

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 2>his eyes. Doctors are sure he'll be blind, He'll spend

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.559
<v Speaker 2>the rest of his life in darkness. Here's Dol, many

0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 2>years later, reflecting on the toll of all these crashes.

0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.280
<v Speaker 3>I've had so many operations. I'm tied to you with

0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:06.360
<v Speaker 3>bits of stream. I've had two hip replacements, my spines

0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:08.960
<v Speaker 3>be not praised on many times from an airplane crash,

0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.840
<v Speaker 3>and this year I had three massive operations on my tummy.

0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:17.640
<v Speaker 3>But I'm all right there. But I'm a bit of

0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 3>a wreck physically.

0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I always laugh when I hear him say tummy. There

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.000
<v Speaker 2>Doll speaks the way he writes, there's this childlike quality

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>of someone who never fully grew up, an old man

0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 2>who still says tummy with a completely straight face. Woven

0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 2>inside a much more gruesome, sobering account of horrible pain

0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 2>and The mixture of those elements are kind of the

0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.640
<v Speaker 2>hallmarks of his books, too, right, the juxtaposition of childlike

0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 2>wonder alongside genuine darkness. It's the bfg's gentle dream catching

0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.040
<v Speaker 2>coexisting with child gobbling giants and the whimsy of Willy

0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Wonka alongside children facing horrific if comical fates. Dall ends

0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 2>up spending six long months in that hospital. Slowly and

0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 2>almost moraulously, he regains his vision. He emerges with the

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.760
<v Speaker 2>knowledge that he's cheated death, which encourages him to take

0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.080
<v Speaker 2>even more risks going forward. He now knows he can

0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.680
<v Speaker 2>survive a fall. Doll isn't alone among great artists who

0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 2>spent significant time recovering from catastrophic injuries. Free to Callo

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 2>had devastating trauma from a bus crash when she was

0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.520
<v Speaker 2>slightly younger than daul spending months in a cast. That's

0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.520
<v Speaker 2>when she began to think about those haunting portraits. Similarly,

0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Stephen King was hit by a van and nearly killed,

0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 2>leading to months of painful recovery. He was older than

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Doll or Callo, but he had not yet written some

0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.320
<v Speaker 2>of his best work. In these long recoveries, not only

0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:40.480
<v Speaker 2>do you learn to endure the solitude and loneliness of

0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:41.200
<v Speaker 2>the creative life.

0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.560
<v Speaker 1>But you also have so much time to reflect on

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 1>your ideas.

0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>And maybe you also gain insight into suffering or pain

0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:48.040
<v Speaker 2>or healing.

0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Like Kllo and King, the lifelong.

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.720
<v Speaker 2>Chronic pain that Dahl deals with after the crash majorly

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:57.880
<v Speaker 2>infiltrates his work and reshapes his personality. Just recently, the

0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>US Navy published a confidential report Odin's Eye, suggesting the

0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 2>extreme conditions faced by fighter pilots HIGI maneuvers and repeated

0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.200
<v Speaker 2>physical trauma like dollhad, can lead to long term effects

0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:13.360
<v Speaker 2>on memory, mood, and behavior. Could lingering brain trauma from

0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.000
<v Speaker 2>his pilot days have contributed to Doll's sharp temper. Could

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.080
<v Speaker 2>the injuries account for what some people very much, including

0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.880
<v Speaker 2>his first wife, describe as his prickly personality. His wife's

0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.000
<v Speaker 2>nickname for him, after all, was rolled the Rotten And

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.120
<v Speaker 2>might the brain trauma also account for his vivid, dark imagination.

0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:35.720
<v Speaker 2>His headaches from the crash becomes so intense that he

0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.720
<v Speaker 2>blacks out regularly, which is not what you want to

0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.240
<v Speaker 2>hear if you're his commanding officer. Setting him up in

0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:46.080
<v Speaker 2>the air, Dall is desperate to keep flying to keep

0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.239
<v Speaker 2>the adventure going, but the RAF grounds him.

0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 1>His flying days are over.

0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.200
<v Speaker 2>Dolls a mess, Terrified, he'll have no choice but to

0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.600
<v Speaker 2>go back to Buckinghamshire, back to that landscape haunted by

0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.320
<v Speaker 2>childhood loss, back to a conventional life that seems to

0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.320
<v Speaker 2>him worse than death. Luckily, that's when Dolls recruited to

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Washington for an avenger so strange that even his imagination

0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 2>couldn't have conjured it.

0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 1>In our last episode, I talked about.

0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Doll's life in the Shadowy Spy game in Washington with

0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.360
<v Speaker 2>the Irregulars. He quickly makes friends there with other spies who,

0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:23.639
<v Speaker 2>like him, go on to create some of the most

0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.640
<v Speaker 2>iconic cultural touchstones of the twentieth century, like Ian Fleming,

0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 2>the creator of a spy as famous for how he

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:31.960
<v Speaker 2>likes as Martinis as anything else.

0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.680
<v Speaker 1>A Martini shaken nutstud and.

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:39.439
<v Speaker 2>Doll's Georgetown roommate David Ogilvy, who later revolutionizes modern advertising

0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.320
<v Speaker 2>and serves as an inspiration for Don Draper on mad Men.

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>You never say thank you, That's what the money is for.

0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Plus Noel Coward, the British playwright and wit who redefined theater,

0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.040
<v Speaker 2>interviewed here by Dick Cavott.

0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.320
<v Speaker 1>You're what is the word for? Win Warne has terrific

0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.119
<v Speaker 1>prolific qualities.

0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Ellen Yeah, or of the most influential storytellers and fabulous

0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:09.400
<v Speaker 2>of the century, all hanging out together playing spy verse spy. Predictably,

0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.600
<v Speaker 2>as these charismatic operatives carry out their spy work, they

0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:17.080
<v Speaker 2>increasingly find themselves under the FBI's suspicious gaze. Jag Or Hoover,

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 2>the authoritarian head of the Bureau, has very rigid rules

0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 2>for his agents, identical suits, military short haircuts, and absolutely

0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.640
<v Speaker 2>no facial hair, so imagine how he feels about these

0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 2>arrogant playboys of British intelligence operating on his turf. The

0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.160
<v Speaker 2>FBI turned a blind eye to the Irregulars when they started,

0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.240
<v Speaker 2>but at this point it's like, are we really just

0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:38.240
<v Speaker 2>going to let these British secret agents do whatever the

0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.359
<v Speaker 2>hell they want on American soil? The Bureau attempts to

0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.560
<v Speaker 2>get a bill through Congress putting the irregulars, including Doll,

0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:45.719
<v Speaker 2>under its supervision.

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:47.440
<v Speaker 1>They open up secret.

0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Files on Doll and every other irregular. The noose is tightening. Finally,

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.720
<v Speaker 2>William Stevenson, the head of the Irregulars, has no choice

0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.600
<v Speaker 2>but to agree that all one hundred and thirty seven

0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.600
<v Speaker 2>British intelligence agents in the US will run all their

0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:03.600
<v Speaker 2>missions by Jagger Hoover. But no one thinks Stevenson will

0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:07.560
<v Speaker 2>actually honor this agreement. According to writer Jenet Conan, stevenson

0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 2>superiors in England dispatch emissaries to him to verify his

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:13.560
<v Speaker 2>compliants spies infiltrating spies.

0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:15.720
<v Speaker 1>One in particular, who will.

0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Call Agent X, keeps feeding damaging reports about the irregulars

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.840
<v Speaker 2>back to London. Stevenson is furious and turns to his

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.760
<v Speaker 2>most resourceful agent for help, Roll Doll. Dall devises an

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 2>elegant trap. He invites Agent X to his George shown

0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.560
<v Speaker 2>apartment for drinks, a seemingly innocent social call between colleagues,

0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.920
<v Speaker 2>But hidden within Dall's living room is a microphone capturing

0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.960
<v Speaker 2>every word. As the evening progresses and booze flows, Dall

0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:45.720
<v Speaker 2>skillfully steers the conversation, encouraging X to disparage his employers

0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.000
<v Speaker 2>back in Britain. The secretly recorded conversation is promptly dispatched

0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 2>to London. Agent X is recalled immediately, the threat to

0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Stephenson neutralized for now through Doll's cunning years later. This

0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:02.679
<v Speaker 2>real life espionage operation will resurface in Doll's fiction, transformed

0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.320
<v Speaker 2>into a chilling short story about a wealthy husband and

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.159
<v Speaker 2>wife who invite a younger couple to their home. The

0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 2>hosts secretly install a microphone in the guest bedroom, eavesdropping

0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:21.040
<v Speaker 2>on their visitors most intimate conversations. The threat of the

0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.159
<v Speaker 2>FBI has rattled Doll, making him very aware that the

0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:28.040
<v Speaker 2>Irregular's days are numbered and therefore so are his. He's

0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.000
<v Speaker 2>desperate not to go back home to England, to his

0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:33.360
<v Speaker 2>mother's house. But what's next? What's he really trained for?

0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.159
<v Speaker 2>He sees his pals Fleming and Ogilvy and Coward setting

0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.439
<v Speaker 2>themselves up for future career success in other fields. They

0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>all have mentors who seem to be guiding them, so

0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.359
<v Speaker 2>Doll begins looking for his own mentor.

0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:48.199
<v Speaker 1>One way I.

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Could have structured this podcast, by the way, is to

0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.040
<v Speaker 2>tell Doll's story by following the hero's journey. Joseph Campbell's

0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:58.040
<v Speaker 2>outline for great adventurers from Odysseus to Luke Skywalker, which

0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Doll fits to a tea. All heroes, according to Campbell,

0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.879
<v Speaker 2>both fictional and real, go through a series of distinct stages.

0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.160
<v Speaker 2>First is a call to adventure when the hero gets

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.440
<v Speaker 2>pulled out of their ordinary world by a quest for Dall.

0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.440
<v Speaker 2>This is being recruited to Washington to join the Irregulars.

0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:19.080
<v Speaker 2>Among the many stages that follow, there's one particularly relevant here,

0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.919
<v Speaker 2>meeting the mentor. Once the hero commits to their quest,

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.879
<v Speaker 2>a guide or magical helper appears. Think Obi Wan Kenobi

0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 2>and Star Wars or Morpheus. In the Matrix for Dall,

0:21:31.160 --> 0:21:36.720
<v Speaker 2>it's Charles Marsh, an arrogant, well connected, obscenely wealthy newspaper tycoon.

0:21:40.119 --> 0:21:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Marsh started out as a journalist, rising up to become

0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:46.159
<v Speaker 2>managing editor of the Cincinnati Post, but his hunger for

0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.320
<v Speaker 2>wealth and status led him to buy every newspaper he

0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.440
<v Speaker 2>could get his hands on. By the time he meets Dahl,

0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.119
<v Speaker 2>Marsh is filthy rich and has grown bored of the

0:21:56.119 --> 0:21:59.280
<v Speaker 2>newspaper game. He's putting all his energy and resources into

0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.679
<v Speaker 2>his passion the war effort. Here's how Robert Carrow, the

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:08.399
<v Speaker 2>Extraordinary author of the Years of Lyndon Johnson series, describes Marsh.

0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:09.959
<v Speaker 1>Having made money. He liked to play the patron with it.

0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.800
<v Speaker 2>A tall man six foot three, he had the broad,

0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.000
<v Speaker 2>high forehead and the beaked nose of a Roman emperor

0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.240
<v Speaker 2>and a manner to match tips to head waiters were

0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.639
<v Speaker 2>dispensed with a gesture reminiscent of a king tossing coins

0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.240
<v Speaker 2>to subjects. Marsh traffics and power. If you're in his orbit,

0:22:27.520 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 2>you're introduced to the right people, and you're in a

0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 2>position to know and be known. Marsh own's a grand

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.200
<v Speaker 2>mansion on our street and joy shown in which he's

0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.720
<v Speaker 2>always playing host. DC insiders, artists, politicians, and powerbrokers of

0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.359
<v Speaker 2>all sorts can just come on in, have a drink, talk,

0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.080
<v Speaker 2>or more often negotiate to give you a sense of

0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the house and the man. Marsh commissions a large oil

0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 2>portrait of himself and hangs it over the mantle in

0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.960
<v Speaker 2>the main sitting room. I love that detail. It says

0:22:54.960 --> 0:22:57.359
<v Speaker 2>so much about the guy, doesn't it. I'm imagining my

0:22:57.400 --> 0:22:59.679
<v Speaker 2>wife's reaction if I brought home a big old painting

0:22:59.720 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>of my life and announced we were hanging it over

0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.639
<v Speaker 2>the couch. Should be into it, right. Vice President Henry

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:09.959
<v Speaker 2>Wallace is a constant presence at Marsh's mansion. Cabinet members, media, titans,

0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:12.760
<v Speaker 2>and diplomats circulate through the rooms, and so does young

0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:16.679
<v Speaker 2>Roll Doll, Marsh's oldest daughter, Antoinette says, of Doll, we

0:23:16.720 --> 0:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>all just adored him, especially my father. We sort of

0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:22.520
<v Speaker 2>adopted him. Rold was a real charmer when he wanted

0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:25.960
<v Speaker 2>to be. He was great fun to be around. Adopted

0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:29.040
<v Speaker 2>is the right word. This is the family that Doll wants,

0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.240
<v Speaker 2>not the one colored by tragedy in Buckingham Shure. He

0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.120
<v Speaker 2>wants the one that offers the key to success in Washington,

0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:37.879
<v Speaker 2>and having access to all the visitors at our Street

0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:44.080
<v Speaker 2>is a gold mine for a young spy. One night,

0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>at a game of high stakes poker, Doll is in

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:50.080
<v Speaker 2>a funk, losing hand after hand, drinking too much, growing frustrated.

0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:52.720
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't have much money, so every dollar.

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 1>He loses is giant.

0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:56.119
<v Speaker 2>But he likes his next hand, so he goes all in,

0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:00.399
<v Speaker 2>not realizing or maybe not yet savvy enough to appreciate,

0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:04.600
<v Speaker 2>that he's playing against Washington powerbrokers, the ultimate bluffers and hustlers.

0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Doll loses his entire paycheck on this one hand, which

0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:11.240
<v Speaker 2>is devastating for him the player he loses it to,

0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:17.359
<v Speaker 2>though Harry Truman Dall may be getting cleaned out, but

0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:23.000
<v Speaker 2>the information intel and connections he's making are priceless. Charles

0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Marsh at this moment, is in his fifties, he's married,

0:24:26.600 --> 0:24:29.880
<v Speaker 2>and he also has a much, much younger girlfriend. Did

0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:31.440
<v Speaker 2>you not see that coming from a guy who hangs

0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:34.359
<v Speaker 2>a giant painting of himself in his living room. This

0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:37.600
<v Speaker 2>younger woman happens to have a very whimsical dolli in

0:24:37.720 --> 0:24:42.200
<v Speaker 2>name Alice Glass. She's six feet tall, with movie star

0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.919
<v Speaker 2>good looks and long blonde hair. According to Conit, the

0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.160
<v Speaker 2>first time Marsh sees Alice, she's stark naked, a pale,

0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:53.520
<v Speaker 2>shimmering goddess rising unexpectedly from his swimming pool. This was

0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:55.920
<v Speaker 2>when Marsh was in his forties, one of the most

0:24:55.920 --> 0:25:02.000
<v Speaker 2>powerful newspaper magnets in the country. Alice was nineteen. During

0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>their relationship, Alice carries on her own affairs with several

0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:07.879
<v Speaker 2>other men, most of whom are in Marsha's social circle.

0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.560
<v Speaker 2>According to Marsh's daughter Antoinette, again, Alice has a crush

0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 2>on Doll, but Doll wisely rejects her.

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.240
<v Speaker 1>He has so much to lose. Doll knows what.

0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.840
<v Speaker 2>Happened when Lancelot slept with King Arthur's wife, namely the

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>fall of camelot. Alice is furious at Doll's rejection. Men

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.760
<v Speaker 2>do not turn her down. She's cold to Doll whenever

0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:31.760
<v Speaker 2>she sees him from then on. By the way, one

0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:34.600
<v Speaker 2>man who did not turn Alice down was Lyndon Johnson.

0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.440
<v Speaker 2>LBJ was POWs with Marsh. Marsh put the weight of

0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.480
<v Speaker 2>his newspaper editorials behind LBJ and helped him win his

0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 2>first race. LBJ paid Marsh back by having an affair

0:25:46.320 --> 0:25:46.840
<v Speaker 2>with Alice.

0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh.

0:25:49.560 --> 0:25:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Marsh was apoplectic when he discovered it. He got LBJ elected,

0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:57.160
<v Speaker 2>but Alice in lbj's affair was much more than a fling.

0:25:57.680 --> 0:26:01.640
<v Speaker 2>It continued for twenty five years. What eventually broke them

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:08.240
<v Speaker 2>up was Alice's passionate opposition to the Vietnam War. In

0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:11.400
<v Speaker 2>all his time with Marsh, Doll has always presented himself

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:14.600
<v Speaker 2>as a simple employee of the British Embassy. So how

0:26:14.640 --> 0:26:16.920
<v Speaker 2>does Marsh feel when he discovers that young Doll is

0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:19.679
<v Speaker 2>actually a spy? Will he be even more annoyed with

0:26:19.720 --> 0:26:23.720
<v Speaker 2>Doll than he was with his other lying, backstabbing, lanky protege.

0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Will he cast him into the wilderness? This young man

0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>he's been so generous with has been infiltrating his home,

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:33.840
<v Speaker 2>reporting back to the Brits on all his fancy guests.

0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.800
<v Speaker 2>It's just the opposite. Marsh has the same goal as

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:41.040
<v Speaker 2>Doll to defeat the Nazis, so he's tickled when he

0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 2>discovers Doll has been keeping the secret Antoinette, Marsh remembers,

0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:47.560
<v Speaker 2>my father said, gluck, here, we're on the same team.

0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:48.720
<v Speaker 1>We can help each other.

0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Marsh quickly becomes essential to Doll's spy work, introducing him

0:26:53.400 --> 0:26:57.240
<v Speaker 2>to influential people and tutoring him on cultivating secret sources

0:26:57.400 --> 0:27:01.200
<v Speaker 2>which he picked up in his newspaper days. By this time,

0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:03.920
<v Speaker 2>Doll is already well versed in the art of seduction.

0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:07.240
<v Speaker 2>He plays to Marsha's ego by asking the older man

0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:10.359
<v Speaker 2>advice about his future and tantalizing him with a pique

0:27:10.400 --> 0:27:13.080
<v Speaker 2>at his orders from the Irregulars whenever he can just

0:27:13.240 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 2>enough to whet Marsh's appetite. When Doll spends a weekend

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.160
<v Speaker 2>with the Roosevelts and Hyde Park, for instance, he makes

0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:22.359
<v Speaker 2>a private copy of his report and surreptitiously gives it

0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:26.359
<v Speaker 2>to Marsh, which the older man hungrily consumes. In their

0:27:26.400 --> 0:27:29.000
<v Speaker 2>private talks. Doll even adds a few details he observed

0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:31.800
<v Speaker 2>about FDR that are too scandalous to put in his

0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:36.320
<v Speaker 2>official report. Isaiah Berlin, who works in the British Embassy

0:27:36.400 --> 0:27:39.280
<v Speaker 2>and later becomes one of the most influential philosophers of

0:27:39.320 --> 0:27:41.879
<v Speaker 2>the century, is also summoned on occasion to the R

0:27:41.880 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Street Mansion to see how Marsh can help the war effort.

0:27:44.960 --> 0:27:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Berlin's take on Marsh is that there's a screw faintly

0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 2>loose somewhere.

0:27:49.440 --> 0:27:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I felt frightened of him.

0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Berlin says, as if in the presence of someone slightly unbalanced.

0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.480
<v Speaker 2>If Doll feels the same, he keeps it to himself.

0:27:58.040 --> 0:27:59.919
<v Speaker 2>Marsh is a man who can deliver him the war,

0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 2>screw loose or not. Continuing his work for the Irregulars.

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.800
<v Speaker 2>Part of Doll's assignment is to romance his way through

0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:15.720
<v Speaker 2>a bevy of older, powerful, influential women. His dance card

0:28:15.760 --> 0:28:19.160
<v Speaker 2>is a who's who of American wealth and privilege. Elizabeth Arden,

0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.439
<v Speaker 2>the cosmetic superstar, Milicent Rogers, the standard oil Heiress, and

0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:28.119
<v Speaker 2>Evelyn Walks Maclin, the gold Mine Heiress. Doll's looks and confidence,

0:28:28.320 --> 0:28:30.879
<v Speaker 2>plus his background as a fighter pilot, help explain why

0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:33.280
<v Speaker 2>he's so attractive. To women, but he also just seems

0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:36.159
<v Speaker 2>to understand women in a way the most men, especially

0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:39.720
<v Speaker 2>men of that time, aren't capable of or don't care to.

0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Proof lives in his fiction, some of his most memorable

0:28:46.960 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 2>characters are female Sophie from the BFG Verrukos Salt and

0:28:51.400 --> 0:28:54.520
<v Speaker 2>Violet Beauregard from a certain chocolate factory, and of course

0:28:54.800 --> 0:28:55.800
<v Speaker 2>Matilda Wormwood.

0:28:56.520 --> 0:28:57.960
<v Speaker 1>These characters aren't just.

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Unique and inventive, they've a Vonne ability and a truth

0:29:01.360 --> 0:29:05.360
<v Speaker 2>that his male characters often lack. Dahl also finds time

0:29:05.360 --> 0:29:08.479
<v Speaker 2>for affairs that have nothing to do with espionage. One

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 2>of his most significant relationships is with the beautiful French

0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:13.040
<v Speaker 2>movie star Annabella.

0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:15.120
<v Speaker 1>She's deeply affected by the war.

0:29:15.600 --> 0:29:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Her brother had been shot and killed trying to escape

0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:20.280
<v Speaker 2>the Nazis, which may well have been what.

0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:21.280
<v Speaker 1>Bonded her in Dall.

0:29:21.840 --> 0:29:24.880
<v Speaker 2>When they meet, she's already married to someone rich and successful.

0:29:25.160 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>Like so many of Dahl's other girlfriends, Annabella's husband is

0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:33.200
<v Speaker 2>movie star Tyrone Power Power was one of Hollywood's first

0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>action heroes. It's unclear how Dahl feels about cuckholding this

0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:40.720
<v Speaker 2>giant star, though honestly its possible Power doesn't even care

0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:43.280
<v Speaker 2>since the rumor is that he's having his own affair

0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:44.480
<v Speaker 2>with Judy Garland.

0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:46.160
<v Speaker 1>But as we'll see later, Dall.

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Is drawn to women who are, were, or had recently

0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:52.040
<v Speaker 2>been in long term relationships with handsome movie stars.

0:29:52.520 --> 0:29:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's an ego trip.

0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.280
<v Speaker 2>When a woman who's within Adonna celebrity chooses to be

0:29:56.360 --> 0:30:02.880
<v Speaker 2>with Doll instead. Dall credits Annabella with teaching him about sex.

0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:06.640
<v Speaker 2>Like Charles Marsh, she becomes a mentor. Dall stays in

0:30:06.680 --> 0:30:09.800
<v Speaker 2>touch with her for decades, often seeking her advice during

0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:14.440
<v Speaker 2>turbulent years and his future marriages. By a certain point,

0:30:14.440 --> 0:30:17.280
<v Speaker 2>it feels like Doll has dated or seduced every available

0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:21.520
<v Speaker 2>and unavailable woman in Washington. He's pooped, but British Intelligence

0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:24.560
<v Speaker 2>is not done with him. They agree, at least to

0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:28.080
<v Speaker 2>transfer him out of DC. For someone always seeking adventure

0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:30.880
<v Speaker 2>and looking for glamorous, beautiful women to spend time with,

0:30:31.280 --> 0:30:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Dall is sent to what will be his personal xanad

0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 2>Manhattan of the nineteen forties.

0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 1>The Irregulars have their New York offices on.

0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:45.640
<v Speaker 2>The thirty fifth and thirty six floors of thirty Rockefeller Center,

0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the same iconic Art deco skyscraper that will later house

0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:52.120
<v Speaker 2>this Tonight Show, Late Night and Saturday Night Live, which

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 2>seems like a super weird place to stash an organization

0:30:55.120 --> 0:30:58.480
<v Speaker 2>devoted to conducting spy work. Maybe operating out of thirty

0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:00.720
<v Speaker 2>Rock is partly a way to convince the book that

0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:04.000
<v Speaker 2>they're not doing anything too shady. After all, their public

0:31:04.040 --> 0:31:08.240
<v Speaker 2>goal is simply to promote British interests in America. Fascinating

0:31:08.280 --> 0:31:11.440
<v Speaker 2>side note, Doll is mesmerized by the incredible speed of

0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:13.840
<v Speaker 2>the elevator at thirty Rock, which is unlike anything he's

0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:17.800
<v Speaker 2>ever experienced and becomes an inspiration for his Chocolate Factory sequel,

0:31:18.000 --> 0:31:25.880
<v Speaker 2>Charlie and the Glass Elevator. Dall instantly takes to the

0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:28.960
<v Speaker 2>glamorous scene. Despite the challenges of the war, the city

0:31:29.000 --> 0:31:31.640
<v Speaker 2>is still a hub of fashion and arts and nightlife.

0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:34.400
<v Speaker 2>This is the era of the Stork Club, with regulars

0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 2>like Sinatra and Hemingway, the Copacabana, the Cotton Club, and

0:31:37.960 --> 0:31:41.800
<v Speaker 2>the twenty one Club. Doll dives in headfirst, ringing out

0:31:41.880 --> 0:31:44.600
<v Speaker 2>every last job of it that he possibly can. Amid

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:48.200
<v Speaker 2>the champagne and midnight conversations, he finds himself even more

0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 2>in his element than he'd been in Washington. Working even

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:53.120
<v Speaker 2>more in his favor. The war has led to a

0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.680
<v Speaker 2>significant shortage of eligible men in the city, although my

0:31:56.720 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 2>wife would say there's always a shortage of eligible men

0:31:59.760 --> 0:32:02.520
<v Speaker 2>in the city, which I think is an insult to me,

0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:05.479
<v Speaker 2>like if there were more eligible men that I wouldn't

0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:06.320
<v Speaker 2>have gotten so lucky.

0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 1>I digress.

0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.400
<v Speaker 2>The point is Dall is even more in demand as

0:32:10.440 --> 0:32:12.800
<v Speaker 2>a romantic partner in New York than he'd been in DC,

0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:17.720
<v Speaker 2>which is saying something again. According to Marsh's daughter Antoinette,

0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.640
<v Speaker 2>Doll was very arrogant with his women, but he got

0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:23.920
<v Speaker 2>away with it. The uniform didn't hurt one bit, and

0:32:24.000 --> 0:32:27.000
<v Speaker 2>he was an ace. Girls just fell at Rolled's feet.

0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Dalla is still obsessed with figuring out what he's going

0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:36.760
<v Speaker 2>to do when the war ends. Going back to Buckingham

0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Shure is out of the question. His ambitions are coalescing

0:32:39.960 --> 0:32:43.440
<v Speaker 2>around storytelling. Keep in mind this is before he writes

0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:46.240
<v Speaker 2>the Gremlin story that gets him invited to FDR's White House.

0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Right now, Dolla is mostly writing short autobiographical stories, and

0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:55.400
<v Speaker 2>they're all rejected for publication. He grows incredibly frustrated, which

0:32:55.440 --> 0:32:58.440
<v Speaker 2>is mirrored in some of his later protagonists like Matilda

0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.360
<v Speaker 2>or James from the Giant who will themselves to greatness

0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:06.640
<v Speaker 2>despite being cruelly underestimated. Dall's first break as a writer

0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 2>is one of those amazing stories of luck meeting talent

0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:11.200
<v Speaker 2>at just.

0:33:11.160 --> 0:33:11.760
<v Speaker 1>The right moment.

0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.560
<v Speaker 2>I truly love this origin story. Here's Dahl telling you

0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:20.200
<v Speaker 2>years later in Thrill Maker, a nineteen eighty five documentary

0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:22.680
<v Speaker 2>where he's interviewed during a visit back to Norway.

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:28.080
<v Speaker 3>They wanted people who had been in combat to publish

0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:31.920
<v Speaker 3>stories in the American papers to give Britain a boost,

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:35.040
<v Speaker 3>and a man was sent to me, a famous writer

0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:38.920
<v Speaker 3>called CS Forrester, who wrote Captain horn Blur stories. And

0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 3>he can't see me, and he said, I will take

0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:43.600
<v Speaker 3>you out to lunch and you will tell me almost

0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 3>exciting adventure in the RAF and I will write it

0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:50.440
<v Speaker 3>and it'll be published because I can always get them published,

0:33:51.040 --> 0:33:54.200
<v Speaker 3>and it'll be good for Britain. So I said, lovely.

0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:56.640
<v Speaker 3>I was terribly excited to go out to this famous writer.

0:33:56.680 --> 0:33:58.280
<v Speaker 3>I'd read everything you'd written.

0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:01.800
<v Speaker 2>CS Fourster isn't as much today, but the guy is

0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:05.120
<v Speaker 2>a giant in Doll's era. It's the equivalent of Aaron Sorkin.

0:34:05.320 --> 0:34:07.520
<v Speaker 2>Just swinging by my office and asking me to lunch.

0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.560
<v Speaker 2>As we've seen, Doll does not lack confidence, so he's

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:13.719
<v Speaker 2>not as petrified going into that meeting as I would

0:34:13.760 --> 0:34:13.960
<v Speaker 2>have been.

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:15.200
<v Speaker 1>He continues.

0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:18.919
<v Speaker 3>We had lunch, and halfway through lunch we had roast

0:34:19.040 --> 0:34:20.960
<v Speaker 3>duck and he was trying to eat his, and I

0:34:21.000 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 3>was trying to tell him the story, and he was

0:34:22.560 --> 0:34:27.480
<v Speaker 3>trying to take notes. And I said, look, I'll go

0:34:27.560 --> 0:34:32.200
<v Speaker 3>home tonight and scribble this down roughly and send it

0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:35.800
<v Speaker 3>to you, and you couldn't put it right, and that'll

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:38.759
<v Speaker 3>be it too, that'll save you and you can eat

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:39.959
<v Speaker 3>your roast duck in a piece.

0:34:40.000 --> 0:34:42.240
<v Speaker 1>And he said, our super So I did it.

0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:47.279
<v Speaker 2>You know what I love thinking about here? What if

0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Forrester hadn't ordered the duck. What if he'd had a

0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.640
<v Speaker 2>ham sandwich, and therefore a free hand to write notes.

0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:56.680
<v Speaker 2>What's about to happen might never have happened, and this

0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:59.960
<v Speaker 2>podcast would be about some other writer. It's these tiny

0:35:00.120 --> 0:35:03.480
<v Speaker 2>moments of chance, a roast duck rather than a ham sandwich,

0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:06.440
<v Speaker 2>but sometimes alter the entire trajectory of a life.

0:35:07.400 --> 0:35:10.600
<v Speaker 3>Doc continues, and it's funny to think when I got

0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.799
<v Speaker 3>home in the evening, and started writing it. It sort

0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:17.200
<v Speaker 3>of went very nicely, and I felt the story growing

0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:19.799
<v Speaker 3>under me, and so I wrote it and I sent

0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:22.640
<v Speaker 3>it to him. Didn't expect me hear anymore, And a

0:35:22.680 --> 0:35:26.880
<v Speaker 3>week later I got a letter from him saying, I

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:29.440
<v Speaker 3>was expecting you to send me notes. You've sent me

0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:33.440
<v Speaker 3>a complete story. Did you know that you were a writer?

0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:37.719
<v Speaker 2>Did you know that you were a writer? When you're

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:40.480
<v Speaker 2>starting out, hearing that you actually have talent and might

0:35:40.480 --> 0:35:42.440
<v Speaker 2>be able to do the crazy thing you dream of

0:35:42.480 --> 0:35:46.319
<v Speaker 2>doing from someone who's already made it is everything in

0:35:46.360 --> 0:35:49.400
<v Speaker 2>a completely different field. Jerry Seinfeld talks about doing one

0:35:49.440 --> 0:35:51.799
<v Speaker 2>of his first ever stand up sets when a much

0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:55.680
<v Speaker 2>more established comic, Jackie Mason, calls him over, telling Jerry

0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:58.880
<v Speaker 2>how jealousy is because Jerry is clearly going to be

0:35:58.880 --> 0:36:02.440
<v Speaker 2>a huge star. Seinfeld talks about that quick interaction with

0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.960
<v Speaker 2>Mason being enough to live off of for years. It's

0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:09.160
<v Speaker 2>a stamp of approval, and Forrester is true to his

0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.920
<v Speaker 2>word about getting the story published under Doll's name. His

0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:14.760
<v Speaker 2>agent secures it a slot in the Saturday Evening Post,

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:17.960
<v Speaker 2>which has a circulation of about three million at the time.

0:36:18.760 --> 0:36:21.280
<v Speaker 2>Dolls paid one hundred and eighty seven dollars for the story,

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.839
<v Speaker 2>which is like three thousand dollars today. It's printed over

0:36:24.880 --> 0:36:28.080
<v Speaker 2>two pages in the August first, nineteen forty two edition.

0:36:28.840 --> 0:36:32.200
<v Speaker 2>But all of that is frosting. Did you know you

0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:35.120
<v Speaker 2>were a writer? Is what will carry Doll for years.

0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:38.799
<v Speaker 2>Doll is now a published writer. He's twenty six years old.

0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:49.040
<v Speaker 2>In many ways, his life has just begun. The elation

0:36:49.160 --> 0:36:51.840
<v Speaker 2>of being published is soon tempered by a major change

0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:55.080
<v Speaker 2>in circumstance for Dol. As the war ends, Dolls informed

0:36:55.080 --> 0:36:58.239
<v Speaker 2>that his services in America are no longer required. He

0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:01.239
<v Speaker 2>hasn't seen his mother or sister in years. He takes

0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:05.480
<v Speaker 2>a deep breath and goes back to Buckinghamshire. The ghosts

0:37:05.480 --> 0:37:08.919
<v Speaker 2>of his father and sister hang over the place. He's

0:37:08.920 --> 0:37:12.000
<v Speaker 2>been going from adventure to adventure, avoiding his home for years.

0:37:12.680 --> 0:37:14.799
<v Speaker 2>His mother, who can guilt trip with the best of them,

0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.640
<v Speaker 2>insists that her beloved only son move in with her

0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.120
<v Speaker 2>while he's in town, and for a time, it's not

0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:21.320
<v Speaker 2>as bad as Doll imagined.

0:37:21.960 --> 0:37:22.920
<v Speaker 1>According to Conint.

0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Again, Doll loses himself in the comforting rhythms of rural life.

0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.719
<v Speaker 2>He manages his mother's farm, tends to the livestock and

0:37:30.800 --> 0:37:35.320
<v Speaker 2>loafs now. I can't stress enough what a bunker's transition

0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.520
<v Speaker 2>this must have been. From international man of mystery seducing

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:40.400
<v Speaker 2>his way across DC in New York on a Monday,

0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 2>to a small town farmer living at home with mom

0:37:42.719 --> 0:37:47.800
<v Speaker 2>that Friday. Writer Martha Gellhorn, Hemingway's wife, visits Stall around

0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:50.840
<v Speaker 2>this time and says she perceives a suffocating atmosphere of

0:37:50.880 --> 0:37:55.040
<v Speaker 2>adoration by his mother. Doll soon begins gambling again, but

0:37:55.080 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 2>it's not Harry Truman sitting across the table anymore. He

0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:01.640
<v Speaker 2>gets into dog racing, which I mean has that ever

0:38:01.719 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 2>led to good things for anyone? He even breeds his

0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:07.759
<v Speaker 2>own greyhounds to compete, and shockingly loses a ton of

0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:11.799
<v Speaker 2>the family's money at the track. Doll is spiraling, his

0:38:11.920 --> 0:38:15.240
<v Speaker 2>sisters start worrying. Will Dahl become one of those people

0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:17.319
<v Speaker 2>who is electric as a young man with the light

0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:20.040
<v Speaker 2>in his eyes and a world of potential. Then returns

0:38:20.040 --> 0:38:23.839
<v Speaker 2>from his adventures to drink, gamble, lose his hair, gain

0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:26.160
<v Speaker 2>a belly, and live at a ho hum existence in

0:38:26.200 --> 0:38:31.279
<v Speaker 2>his mother's basement, squandering all that youthful promise. Luckily for Doll,

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:36.000
<v Speaker 2>his great mentor his obi one is watching. Charles Marsh

0:38:36.040 --> 0:38:40.000
<v Speaker 2>decides to intervene. He practically kidnaps Doll away from Buckinghamshire,

0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:42.239
<v Speaker 2>brings him to New York and puts him up in

0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:45.279
<v Speaker 2>his lavish townhouse on ninety second Street. If Dall had

0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:47.440
<v Speaker 2>been paying his own way, he'd more likely be in

0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:50.360
<v Speaker 2>a studio apartment with roommates on the Lower East Side.

0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:55.479
<v Speaker 2>Marsh insists on underwriting all of Doll's expenses until Dol

0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.120
<v Speaker 2>can start making his own money as a writer. That's

0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:03.400
<v Speaker 2>how strongly Marsh believes in him. I'm blown away by this,

0:39:04.000 --> 0:39:06.640
<v Speaker 2>and I think Doll is too. He basically puts it

0:39:06.640 --> 0:39:09.720
<v Speaker 2>all in a book later on. It's Willy Wonka handing

0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:13.080
<v Speaker 2>over his factory to Charlie is an act of extraordinary

0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:16.359
<v Speaker 2>patronage from a mysterious older man of means to a

0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:20.400
<v Speaker 2>young man in whom he sees great promise. Marsh believes

0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:22.600
<v Speaker 2>in Doll's talent every bit as much as C. S.

0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:30.520
<v Speaker 2>Forrester did, and Lake Forrester Marsh has connections. Once Marsh

0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:32.680
<v Speaker 2>has got Doll in New York, he introduces the young

0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:35.359
<v Speaker 2>writer to the most powerful magazine editor in town.

0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Harold Ross, the.

0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:41.279
<v Speaker 2>Eccentric, meticulous founding editor of The New Yorker. The New

0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Yorker then as it is now, is the ultimate destination

0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:48.960
<v Speaker 2>for short fiction. Despite his often brusque personality, Ross is

0:39:49.040 --> 0:39:52.120
<v Speaker 2>deeply committed to the writers he works with, nurturing household

0:39:52.200 --> 0:39:54.480
<v Speaker 2>names like Dorothy Parker, James Thurberr, and J. D.

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Salinger.

0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:58.799
<v Speaker 2>Ross takes an instant liking to Doll's stories. This is

0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:02.239
<v Speaker 2>huge for Doll. The New Yorker buys several of dolls

0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:05.759
<v Speaker 2>stories in a row, including his now classic Skin, which

0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:08.800
<v Speaker 2>follows an old destitute man on whose back of famous

0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.959
<v Speaker 2>artist wants tattooed to painting. When art collectors realize it's worth,

0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:15.840
<v Speaker 2>they offered the destitute man huge amounts of money for

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:19.040
<v Speaker 2>his tattoo. The story then takes a really dark turn,

0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:22.640
<v Speaker 2>implying that the collectors intend to claim the artwork off

0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 2>the man's back by any means necessary. The story explores

0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:31.080
<v Speaker 2>the intersection of art and commerce, exploitation, and the high

0:40:31.160 --> 0:40:35.439
<v Speaker 2>personal cost of other people's greed, three themes that Doll

0:40:35.520 --> 0:40:38.000
<v Speaker 2>will return to in his work and in his private

0:40:38.040 --> 0:40:42.840
<v Speaker 2>life for decades. All of Doll's stories in this period

0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:47.920
<v Speaker 2>are dark twisty, witty, somewhat gruesome, and totally unique. And

0:40:48.000 --> 0:40:51.400
<v Speaker 2>this includes his gremlin story, which we discussed Eleanor Roosevelt

0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.919
<v Speaker 2>loving so much. But all sorts of readers are going

0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.080
<v Speaker 2>crazy for the stories. The New York Harold Tribune writes

0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:00.960
<v Speaker 2>the Dolls developing something like a cult of fans. Doll

0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:04.520
<v Speaker 2>can't believe it's all happening. His old pal from the Irregulars,

0:41:04.640 --> 0:41:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Noel Coward, is also a little surprised, but for a

0:41:07.160 --> 0:41:10.520
<v Speaker 2>different reason, saying about Doll, the stories are brilliant and

0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:14.239
<v Speaker 2>his imagination is fabulous. Unfortunately, there is in all of

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:19.080
<v Speaker 2>them an underlying streak of cruelty and macabre unpleasantness and

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 2>a crudely adolescent emphasis on sex. Coward continues, this is

0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:31.400
<v Speaker 2>strange because rold is a sensitive and gentle creature. Mixing

0:41:31.400 --> 0:41:34.600
<v Speaker 2>his gentle, sensitive side with his attraction to cruelty and

0:41:34.640 --> 0:41:38.520
<v Speaker 2>unpleasantness is, of course, what will make Dall more successful

0:41:38.719 --> 0:41:41.719
<v Speaker 2>and more widely read than Coward or any other living writer.

0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:44.719
<v Speaker 2>That is, if he can buckle down and focus on

0:41:44.760 --> 0:41:48.920
<v Speaker 2>his work. Because while we've heard Dahl spend his twenties spying, seducing,

0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.879
<v Speaker 2>and manipulating his way across DC in New York. He's

0:41:51.920 --> 0:41:54.680
<v Speaker 2>about to fall prey to the seduction of something with

0:41:54.800 --> 0:41:59.600
<v Speaker 2>almost infinite alert. Doll, the master manipulator, is about to

0:41:59.640 --> 0:42:02.600
<v Speaker 2>discover for what it means to be manipulated by something

0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:06.680
<v Speaker 2>far more cunning than himself, something that will whisper promises

0:42:06.719 --> 0:42:11.800
<v Speaker 2>of glory while slowly invisibly tightening its grip around his throat,

0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:21.920
<v Speaker 2>and right now he's walking straight into its embrace. The

0:42:21.920 --> 0:42:25.200
<v Speaker 2>Secret World of Roald Dahl is produced by Imagine Audio

0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:29.440
<v Speaker 2>and Parallax Studios for iHeart Podcasts. Created and written by

0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:34.359
<v Speaker 2>me Aaron Tracy, produced by Matt Schrader, post production by

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:38.600
<v Speaker 2>wind Hill Studios, with editing, scoring, and sound design by

0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Mark Henry Phillips. Editing by Ryan Seaton, Music by eight PM.

0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:50.080
<v Speaker 2>Executive producers Nathan Cloke, Karl Welker, Brian Grazer, Ron Howard,

0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:54.920
<v Speaker 2>and Aaron Tracy. Additional voice performances and recreation by Mark

0:42:54.960 --> 0:42:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Henry Phillips and Eleven Laps. If you enjoyed this episode,

0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:01.279
<v Speaker 2>be sure to rate and review The Secret World of

0:43:01.360 --> 0:43:04.800
<v Speaker 2>Roll Doll on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:10.520
<v Speaker 2>Copyright twenty twenty six Imagine Entertainment, iHeartMedia and Parallax