1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 2: It turned out that every door I pushed, I walked 3 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 2: in and there were these ghosts, if you will saying, well, 4 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: what the heck took you so long? We've just been 5 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: sitting here waiting for you to figure out where part 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: of the story too. 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 12 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More 15 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, 16 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 17 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: behind the stories. A writer's stepfather is a researcher in 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: a prison when he meets a prisoner and they'll change 19 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: their lives forever. This is a tragic true crime tale 20 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: about regret, lots of regret. Could one decision have saved 21 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: the life of a police officer. Later on, author Lisa 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: Belkin tells us her very personal story from her book 23 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Genealogy of a Murder. Four Generations, three families, One fateful Night. 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: The story began over breakfast. The story began with a story. 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: And my stepfather had just read another book of mine 26 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: and had sat down to this breakfast he just made 27 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: in the new kitchen he shared in his new marriage 28 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: with my mother, and he said, you know, your book 29 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: reminds me of a story. And he started to talk 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: for a good forty five minutes, telling me a tale 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: that it seems he had not told often. It was 32 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: new to my mother about how he was thirty years old. 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: He was a fairly newly minted physician. He was in 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: the army in the nineteen fifties, late nineteen fifties to 35 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: early nineteen sixty and he was sent not to war, 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: not to East Germany, which is where most doctors were 37 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 2: being sent then, but to a penitentiary, the State of 38 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: penitentiary in Chicago, Illinois, and he was there to run 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: experiments on prisoners. I'll tell you I almost interrupted him there, 40 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: you know, the way you do to show him what 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 2: I knew about medical experiments and how that well, that 42 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't be permitted today, and instead I kept my mouth shut, 43 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: and he started to tell me about his friendship with 44 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 2: one particular prisoner and how he recognized himself in this man. 45 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: They their interests, they had deep conversations, and he finished 46 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: telling me this forty five minute story with a lot 47 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: of rabbit holes and detours. And I looked at him 48 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: and I said, well, you know I have to write 49 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 2: about this, don't you. And he said, well, if you must, 50 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: And that's where this book began, and nine and a 51 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: half years later it came out. But it all began 52 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 2: with a story, which is interesting because it's a story 53 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: about the importance of stories in a way, and it 54 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 2: evolved from there. 55 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the names real quick. So the killer 56 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: that we're talking about is Joseph DeSalvo, who was well known, 57 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: is that right by the time this happened. 58 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: By the time this happened, he was well known to authorities. 59 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: After it happened, he was well known to everyone in Stamford, Connecticut. 60 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: I mean, the shooting became a huge, huge deal. And 61 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 2: then the police officer was David Troy, who was well 62 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: known in Stamford, Connecticut for different reasons. He was the 63 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: friendly beat cop that everyone in the neighborhood knew. And 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: then the doctor was Alvin Tarloff, known to me as 65 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: al who ended up marrying my mother many many years later, 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: and he became well known after this. He became sort 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: of a force in the medical world after this, arguably 68 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: as a result of it. Much of his work was 69 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: what we're talking about, trying to figure out what it 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 2: is that happens to people young that determines who they are, 71 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: social determinants of health, it's called. And because of this event, 72 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 2: he spent a lifetime trying to figure out what makes 73 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: us who we are and how society can try and 74 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 2: help early on. So, yes, So, Joe DeSalvo was my shooter, 75 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: David Troy was my cup, al Tarloff was my doctor, 76 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: and I do think of all of them as mine. 77 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: Okay, that's an interesting concept. Why is that just because 78 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: you became so entrenched in their stories, you felt like 79 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: you have some sort of not ownership, but you have 80 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: an investment, and you've done more for these three men 81 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: than anybody else had with biography, right. 82 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 2: And because I think when you spend this much time 83 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: writing so deeply about people, you feel an obligation to 84 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: get it right. You feel an obligation to write it 85 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: through their eyes, to as much crawl in their head 86 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: as you can, so that you are seeing and reasoning 87 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: the way they did. At the time. I felt the 88 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 2: added obligation to the families, one of which was theoretically mine, 89 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: I mean my mother married into it, but was now 90 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: mine and the cops kids, who I felt a deep 91 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: responsibility too. 92 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: So where do we start with the story? Is it 93 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: in the penitentiary or where is it? 94 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: Do you think the story of the murder starts in 95 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: the stay Field Penitentiary, where Joseph DeSalvo had been imprisoned 96 00:05:54,680 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: and al Tarloff was then stationed as a doctor, where 97 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: the Army was running experiments on prisoners. There was something 98 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:11,799 Speaker 2: called the US Army Malaria drug trials that were conducted 99 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 2: not exclusively, but quite largely at the Stafold Penitentiary in Chicago, 100 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,799 Speaker 2: and the Army was desperate for a treatment for malaria 101 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: because malaria was decimating their troops. It had been a 102 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: problem during World War One, it had been a problem 103 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: during Korea, and now in nineteen fifty eight, by the 104 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 2: time my stepfather got there, it was still a problem 105 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: and the experiments were still ongoing, and now they were 106 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 2: facing Vietnam. The goal was to find something that would 107 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: keep their troops on their feet rather than hospitalized with malaria. 108 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 2: And prisons are really good places to do experiments on 109 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: people because you can control for all the factors, what 110 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: they eat, what the climate is, make sure they show up. 111 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: And so Al ran these experiments. They would later be 112 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 2: declared unethical, unconscionable, and illegal and stopped by Congress. But 113 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: at the time my stepfather, who was very interested in 114 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: doing the right thing at all times and studied it carefully, 115 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 2: really believed and I think the prisoners did too, that 116 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: they were doing something patriotic for the nation and for 117 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 2: its troops. So prisoners were the subjects of the experiment. 118 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: They were given malaria, and then they were given drugs 119 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: to treat the malaria. They also were training as lab techs, 120 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: as nurses in various professions that they could take with 121 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: them out of the penitentiary. And Joseph DeSalvo was both 122 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: a subject of the experiments and a lab trainee, and 123 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: so he and Al worked side by side, got to 124 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: know each other, Well, can you get to know somebody 125 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 2: well when one of you is a prisoner and the 126 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: other goes home to their family every night. But it 127 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: felt like a friendship, It felt like intellectual conversation. And 128 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: Joe asked Al for help with the parole board. And 129 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: Al not only wrote a letter, which would be the easiest, 130 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: simplest thing to do, but also, being the man I 131 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: came to know as my stepfather, he researched everything about it. 132 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: He learned that then, as now, the things that make 133 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: you succeed on parole are not just wanting to be better, 134 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: but having a job when you got out, a place 135 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 2: to live, and getting out of the water you swam in. 136 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: So Al found him that job, found him that place 137 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: to live, and found all of those things in Connecticut, 138 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: which is where Al grew up and which was far 139 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: away from Chicago, which is where Joe committed all his crimes. 140 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: And Joe went off to Norwalk, Connecticut and did incredibly well. 141 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: And then, for reasons that are intricate I find fascinating 142 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: and well into the story, he began to falter. He 143 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: reached out to my stepfather for help. It was at 144 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: a moment where Al could not help him, and Joe 145 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: and Adam bought a gun and held up a tavern. 146 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: And a police officer who's by this point in the 147 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: reading you've come to know fairly well as well, happened 148 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 2: to be on duty that night when he should have 149 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: been off, happened to take this call when he had 150 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: been assigned another one, happened to do a series of 151 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: things that ended up with the two of them facing 152 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: off in a dark alley. 153 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: Tell me why Joseph DeSalvo was there to begin with? 154 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: I know you said he has a long rap sheet, 155 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: lots of crime in the Chicago area. 156 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: Why is it because he was a twin and he 157 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: was the second born, and he was always treated as 158 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 2: second and always trying to prove that that he, you know, 159 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: with a lot of bluster, was worthy. Was it because 160 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 2: his father, he was a motorcycle racing star in nineteen 161 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: oh eight who got clunked on the head during a race, 162 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: And the write up includes the fact that you could 163 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 2: hear the clonk in the top part of the stands 164 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: and his family describes his whole personality as changing. So 165 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: he was a lousy father, probably because he had a 166 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: traumatic brain injury. We would know that today and tortured 167 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: his son in many ways. So the kid was, you know, 168 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: stealing from other children at school by the time he 169 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 2: was eight, or was it because he fell in with 170 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: a group of friends when he was a teenager and 171 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: started holding up bars, whatever it was. His raps sheet 172 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: said it was because he had a sort of lifelong 173 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: habit of taking things that weren't his starting with grade school, 174 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: you know, lunch money, and ending up with cars at gunpoint. 175 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: He was not the kind of guy you want to 176 00:10:55,559 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: meet in the dark. And yet you listen to his 177 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: talk with psychiatrists in prison and his talks with Al 178 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: side by side in a lab at the penitentiary, and 179 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: he was smart as could be, well read, quoted poetry, 180 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: quoted philosophy, huge fan of history. And so why was 181 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 2: Joe there? He was there because he was an armed robber. 182 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: But it was, as always, much more complicated than that. 183 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: Were there violent crimes in this go round when he 184 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: was in the penitentiary, when Al knew him. 185 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: There was armed robbery, There was no physical injury to anyone. 186 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: There was debate among him and the others who held 187 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: up the last tavern about who fired the gun into 188 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: the mirror over the bar, so it could have been Jie, 189 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: but I don't know. He had never he was not 190 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: in and he fights in prison. He was never accused 191 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 2: of hurting anyone, at least physically. And interestingly, Al did 192 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: not know his complete history when he vouched for him, 193 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: and effectively, that's what you do when you write a 194 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: letter to the parole board. I mean, technically. Al's letter 195 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 2: to the parole board said I have trained him as 196 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: a lab tech, and he is skilled, and he is 197 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: among the best that I've seen, and I am confident 198 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: that he is prepared to go do this job in 199 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: the real world. Those were the parameters of his letter. 200 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: But the effect of writing that letter says, I vouch 201 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: for this man. But the way it worked, or at 202 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 2: least the way Al thought it worked, was you don't 203 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: ask the details of someone's rap sheet because you are saying, 204 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: this is the man that I see now. You parole 205 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: board need to figure out the rest. All I can 206 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 2: tell you is who I see now, and who Al 207 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: saw at the moment that he stepped forward and said, yes, 208 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: I think he can go successfully do this job was 209 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: a man who frankly made him think of himself so no, 210 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 2: Al did not know the details of what Joe had done. 211 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,439 Speaker 2: Was somewhat appalled, but I never got a straight answer 212 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: out of him, never thought to ask, felt he wasn't 213 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: supposed to ask, felt that that wasn't the point. The 214 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 2: point was who are you now? Maybe a little of 215 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: all those things. 216 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: Tell me about the time span we're talking about, is 217 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: this years? Is this month? And also tell me about 218 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: the process of training and inmate in a skill like this, 219 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: a specialized skill like being a laptech. 220 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 2: Al met Joe in nineteen fifty eight summer of fifty eight, 221 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: and Joe was released in May of sixty, so they 222 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: had at least an acquaintance of several years. They spent 223 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: every day together, because you know, weekends don't exist in 224 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,839 Speaker 2: a penitentiary. Al came into the office at least once 225 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: a day, including weekends. He was in the army. This 226 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 2: isn't your typical job. And they were side by side 227 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: in a small laboratory that had been a jail cell. 228 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: It had been a prison cell, so that's how big 229 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: a space we're talking. So side by side is really 230 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: side by side. And when they weren't talking about the science, 231 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: they were talking about what they were reading about local sports. 232 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: They talked about everything but Al's family and Joe's history. 233 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: Those things were I don't think explicitly but simply understood 234 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: as non starters. So they talked NonStop for a good 235 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: part of almost every day for two years. And Joe 236 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 2: was an autodidact. He taught himself jazz, he taught him 237 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 2: self poetry, he taught him self philosophy. He took all 238 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: these books out of the prison library and discussed them 239 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 2: with Al. Al felt himself to also be kind of 240 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: a plant through the asphalt, if you will. He came 241 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: from a family that wasn't interested in in academics, or 242 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: at least his immediate family had an uncle who was 243 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 2: his mentor, but he didn't fit in with his own family, 244 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 2: where they kind of brawled and ran businesses and did sports. 245 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 2: And all Al wanted to do was read and think 246 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 2: deeply and solve problems. So Al kind of saw little 247 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: of himself and him so how well did he know 248 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 2: him versus how much was he projecting? I can't parse that, 249 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: but it was a complicated thread. 250 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: Well, when you were describing their conversations and then your 251 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: stepfather's background, I was thinking, I wonder if Al felt 252 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: like this was a case of one wrong turn in 253 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: his own you could have landed him in the same 254 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: situations as Joseph DeSalvo. So you know, this is somebody 255 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: who deserved a certain amount of respect as he got 256 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: to know him. Do you think that that kind of 257 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: makes sense to him? Maybe they had a very similar 258 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: feel growing up in some ways. 259 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 2: In today's language, Al's background was one of a lot 260 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: of privilege. His parents didn't go to college, but they 261 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: were educated. They lived a middle class life. They owned 262 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: a restaurant that did extremely well. Joe arguably didn't have 263 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: a chance from the start. His father just couldn't hold 264 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: a job, was clearly damaged physically by things he'd done 265 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: in his youth, emotionally and physically abused his mother, and 266 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: Joe watched that. So in that way, they were very different. 267 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: But Al viewed his own childhood as one where he 268 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: was somewhat neglected. His view of himself was that his 269 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: father and mother were so invested in this restaurant, which 270 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 2: they were at twenty four hours a day, seven days 271 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 2: a week, by Al's account, and his mother was never home. 272 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 2: When she was home, he overheard her crying in the 273 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: other room because this isn't the way she wanted to 274 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: raise her children. She didn't want, you know, for her 275 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: husband's demands go off to work every day. The father 276 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 2: was not as his graduation, The father was not present 277 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 2: for family events, and they ate all their meals at 278 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: the restaurant. He doesn't remember any family conversations that weren't 279 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: about the restaurant. That was Al's view of his own childhood. 280 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 2: And he used to go to other people's houses for dinner. 281 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 2: He was invited to classmates houses for dinner, and he 282 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: went almost as an anthropologist, to see how other families 283 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 2: did it. And other families, in his view, did it better. 284 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: They paid more attention to their children. So yeah, Al 285 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 2: was gambling after school in vacant lots, and Al felt 286 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 2: he had nobody looking out for him. So I think, 287 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: even though he was wrong on the facts, I think 288 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 2: Al's experience of his life was that he could have 289 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 2: become Joe. He could have taken a wrong turn and 290 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: become Joe, And really isn't Now what matters is our 291 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: own perspective on our lives. 292 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: Let's turn to David Troy for a moment. Who's the 293 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: police officer who we will really become involved with in 294 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: a little bit as we approach talking about how Joseph 295 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: DeSalvo is released and what happens. Who is David Troy. 296 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: David Troy is the youngest son of ten children. His 297 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 2: father died young, and you know, talk about fate and 298 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: nature versus nurture. His father died of what the family 299 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: would gradually in an age of genetics, come to realize 300 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: was a faulty gene and all the men in the 301 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 2: family died young until they developed a test for hypochlesteroemia 302 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 2: and could put them up powerful drugs, so that family 303 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: legacy started early. And his father died at the wheel 304 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,360 Speaker 2: of the car driving his sister, David's sister to the dentist. 305 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 2: And so that's one of Dave's first memories is a 306 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 2: knock on the door and his mother completely falling apart. 307 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: And he was her favorite son, so he was the 308 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: one that she depended on, and he went through his 309 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 2: life basically trying to make his mother happy and his 310 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: mother not cry. He ended up breaking her heart in 311 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,719 Speaker 2: a lot of ways by marrying a lovely Italian girl, 312 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: but she wasn't Irish, and this was his mother's dream 313 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: for him was a nice Irish girl, and he made 314 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: it up to her by taking a safer job. He 315 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: had been working in a gas station, but that was 316 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: with cars, and cars killed his father. So he took 317 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: a safer job and joined the police force where his 318 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: hours would be better. And it was Stamford. Police officers 319 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 2: didn't get hurt in Stamford, and in fact, David Troy's 320 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: death was the first death of a police officer in 321 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: the line of duty in Stamford, Connecticut. So he was 322 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: by description just a happy, kind, friendly, sunshiny man with 323 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: a good singing voice. And he was like my stepfather, 324 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: only trying to do the right thing most of the time. 325 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: And it was the figuring out what the right thing 326 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: was that sometimes got challenging. 327 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: So Joseph DeSalvo and your stepfather have been working together 328 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: in this lab for two years and he's approaching his 329 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: parole meeting, right, Does anyone else vouch for Joseph or 330 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: is it just Al? 331 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: It's not just Al. In nineteen twenty four, Nathan Leopold 332 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 2: and Richard Loebe became infamous, and you know, not aver 333 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: audience knows who they are. But I'm betting yours. Does 334 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: even those who don't recognize the name anymore recognize the 335 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: two University of Chicago students who, thinking they are so 336 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: brilliant that they can literally get away with murder, pick 337 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 2: a fourteen year old boy off the streets, essentially at random, 338 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 2: murder him and become the first crime of the century 339 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 2: when the local papers go crazy. Spoiler alert, They did 340 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 2: not get away with murder. They ended up at the 341 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: State fell Penitentiary in Chicago, Illinois, and they were bored. 342 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 2: They had ninety nine years to life to fill. And 343 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: so what they began to do is take bets every 344 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: time one of their own, one another prisoner was released 345 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: on parole. Parole was fairly new in nineteen twenties. Every 346 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: time someone was released on parole, they would take a 347 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 2: bet as to whether or not that person would come 348 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: back or make good. And they discovered that they had 349 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: a remarkable success rate. They're betting on recidivism, and they're 350 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: effectively inventing parole prediction. Because sociology was brand new again 351 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: in the nineteen twenties, and there were sociologists at the 352 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: University of Chicago who were studying this, and they came 353 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: to know these men and they first both of them together. Then, 354 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: after Lobe's death, Leopold, with far more rigor and determination, 355 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: they published results under pseudonyms. They created a parole prediction 356 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 2: instrument that their problem with the existing science, if you will, 357 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: or academics, was it only asked questions that measured who 358 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: a man was, and these were all men were talking 359 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: about who a man was when they came into prison. 360 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: They didn't account for how that man may have changed 361 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: well in prison. So they recreated the questionnaire that prisoners 362 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: asking for parole took that predicted their chances of success. 363 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: And that was the instrument that was used when Joe 364 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: DeSalvo applied for parole, and it said that he had 365 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: far better than even odds of succeeding. And my stepfather 366 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 2: went and read all of Leopold and Loeb's work that 367 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: convinced him that this was an effective document. So it 368 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: convinced my stepfather to support him. And the warden supported 369 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: parole for this man for all the same reasons. The 370 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 2: way the state of Illinois determines parole is this particular instrument. 371 00:23:46,920 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: And look, he passed, so he's released in nineteen sixty 372 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: is that right? 373 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 2: He was released in May of nineteen sixty. 374 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: Oh man, this happens quickly, just two months. 375 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: It goes downhill, very very quickly. So he just went 376 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 2: off on the bus from Chicago to Norwalk, Connecticut. Al 377 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: does not even remember saying goodbye. It was he just left. 378 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 2: He went to Norwalk because that's where Al during medical 379 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 2: school volunteered in a lab, in a research lab. It's 380 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 2: where Al got his love of research, was in a 381 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: lab in Norwalk, Connecticut. And he is working for a 382 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: man named Norman Boaz, who Al kind of found from 383 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: friends of friends of friends, you know. He wrote to 384 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: the people he knew at the hospital saying, I have 385 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 2: this man he's trained to do this sort of lab work. 386 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 2: And he hears back from this man named Norman Boaz, who, 387 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: as it turns out, is you know again, I like 388 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: rabbit holes, the grandson of a man named Ernest Boaz, 389 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 2: who is essentially he's been labeled the father of anthropology. 390 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: Norman sees himself as interested in the essence of people 391 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 2: and what makes them tick and how people can change. 392 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: And he kind of came to this in a way 393 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: like Al, like I am going to help people be better, 394 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,640 Speaker 2: and here is a person being presented to me, so 395 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: he accepted Joe into his lab. In that spirit. Where 396 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 2: Joe was living, was a postcard that he found tacked 397 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 2: on the wall of the hospital from a woman who 398 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: rented out the house over her garage and sent her 399 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: postcard saying there was this house available to places where 400 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 2: she thought trustworthy people might work, so she sent it 401 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 2: to the hospital. They put it on the board, and 402 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 2: then there was Joe bringing her doorbell and became her tenant. 403 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: Had a tidy life for a period of time. There 404 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: are hints that he was dating a nurse that he 405 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 2: met and learning that his modest salary in the real 406 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: world didn't go as far as it needed to go 407 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: to properly entertain a young woman. There were subtler hints, 408 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 2: but looking back, my interpretation is that Joe began to 409 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: miss the scaffolding of prison, so he reached out to 410 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: Al in only fourth over July fourth weekend, where he'd 411 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: been out for two months and al was on vacation 412 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: at the time, back in Norwalk, where his family still lived. 413 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 2: He had come east from Chicago to see his parents 414 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: and very importantly to get his wife to the beach 415 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: because their third child had been born, and she was 416 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: having severe postpartum depression and what they would eventually recognize 417 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: was the first signs of the schizophrenia that would lead 418 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: her to die on the streets many years later. All 419 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,439 Speaker 2: he knew, not all those details, but he knew she 420 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: was in trouble, and so he came with their three 421 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: young children under the age of three, left those children 422 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: with his parents, and Al's only concern was to get 423 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 2: her some rest time by the beach. So when Joe 424 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 2: called his house the night before we were supposed to 425 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: leave and said, I need to see you, I think 426 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: Joe was looking for the structure and security and reminder 427 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 2: of who he could be, and Al, well, recognizing that 428 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: there was a note of something dire in Joe's voice, 429 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: said I can't see you now. I'll see you when 430 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,040 Speaker 2: I get back. And that's when Joe went out and 431 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 2: bought a gun. And it was while Al was at 432 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: the beach that Joe, you know, looked for a tavern 433 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 2: to hold up, which was his you know, that's what 434 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: he did before. And he found the one he found 435 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: and things unraveled as they did. 436 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: So describe what that scene is like. This isn't Stamford 437 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: Fourth of July weekend. How far is that from where 438 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: he's staying at this house. 439 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: It's about I guess a fifteen or twenty minute drive 440 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: on roads as they existed then, probably, And he tried 441 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: a few towns first. He acted in a way that 442 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: shows some hesitance, right, It was not purposeful. He didn't 443 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: march out of his house and you know, find the 444 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: first available place. He went from place to place, he 445 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,760 Speaker 2: found reasons not to stay. There. Seemed to be a 446 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 2: reluctance in his pattern, if you want to read something 447 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: into it. He left the house at about four or 448 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: five in the afternoon. He did not arrive at this 449 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 2: tavern until ten thirty ish at night, and he put 450 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 2: tape on his face as some sort of disguise, and 451 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: put a newspaper over his gun and walked up to 452 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: the bartender and said, give me everything in the cash register. 453 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: It was not much, As with so many armed robberies 454 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: where there's a cash register involved, nobody can agree on 455 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 2: how much money there was, but it was, you know, 456 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: double digits at best. And he got his money and 457 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: then he ran. And David Troy had had the kind 458 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: of night where he answered some you know, drunks who 459 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: can't stand up, and a woman who was hit slightly 460 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: by a car while crossing the street, and sort of 461 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: minor little events, and he ended up taking the call 462 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: at the tavern when others also said they would take it, 463 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 2: but then backed off because Dave was already there, and 464 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 2: you know, he got there and people were saying he 465 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: went that away. So they ran in back into a 466 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,719 Speaker 2: sort of alley behind this tavern, and shots were fired, 467 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: and David Troy was hit several times. The shot that 468 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: killed him was in his heart. He led out in 469 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: an alleyway. Testifying later, Joe would insist that David shot first, 470 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 2: and in a book full of a lot of upsetting things, 471 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: that is the one thing that his children couldn't let stand. 472 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 2: When they read the draft, they said there is nothing 473 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: about the man they know that is consistent with him 474 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: shooting first. 475 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: Can that be proven? I don't think it can, right, No. 476 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: And so what I did is I created an end 477 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: note that said, the children object to this. Right all, 478 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: we have the only description we have of what happened 479 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 2: in that alley. There were two people there, and one's 480 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,239 Speaker 2: dead and the other testify against his lawyer's advice at 481 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 2: trial and says that the cop shot first, and I 482 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: quoted their daughter as saying, shouldn't somebody challenge that he 483 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: was a known liar? And I basically wrote in the 484 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: end note, yes somebody should. So you know, take this 485 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: at face value or not. But I don't know who 486 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: shot first. I don't think we will ever know who 487 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 2: shot first. 488 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: So David dies in this alleyway and Joe is in 489 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: the wind, how do they identify him if he is 490 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: a twenty minute drive away from where this tavern was? 491 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: In part because of Al Tarlov. He is sitting on 492 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 2: a beach that morning in Madison, Connecticut, and there are 493 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: a group of men at the blanket next to them 494 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 2: reading a newspaper and Al sees the headline that a 495 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: police officer is dead in Stamford, and he borrows the 496 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: newspaper and gets sees the police sketch that looks a 497 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: little too much like this man that he knows, the 498 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,840 Speaker 2: same man who was desperate to see him a day 499 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: or so ago. And this was the original story that 500 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 2: he told me. This was where I came into the 501 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: story in the first place. Was Al told me about 502 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 2: sitting on this blanket and seeing this newspaper article, and 503 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: then the decision he made absolutely boggled my mind. He 504 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: decided that if it's possible for this man who he 505 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: knows to be a cop killer, well he's going to 506 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: go find out. So he went. First thing he did 507 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: is he called Joe the lab where Joe should have 508 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 2: been working, and he wasn't there that day, and so 509 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 2: then he called the landlady's house and the landlady said, 510 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 2: you know, he's out. So he got in his car 511 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: and he drove back to Norwalk and he knocked on 512 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: the door to find him, and the landlady there's been 513 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 2: a lot of comings and goings at that house by then, 514 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 2: because Joe had come home, he'd been shot in the leg. 515 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: He couldn't go to work, which is what he wasn't 516 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: at work when Al called him. His coworkers came to 517 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 2: check on him because he said he wasn't feeling well. 518 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: And so the landlady kind of exasperated because now here 519 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 2: was this other guy at the front door, said he's 520 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: you know, he's not here. He went to the airport. 521 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: Doctor boas his boss at the lab, drove him and Al, 522 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: already somewhat suspicious, said he went to the airport and 523 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: the woman said, yes, his brother was killed last night 524 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: in a motorcycle accident and he had to go to 525 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,719 Speaker 2: the funeral. And Al, who had not called the police 526 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 2: to report him when he recognized the police sketch because 527 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,959 Speaker 2: he wasn't sure and had not called to report him 528 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: when this man didn't show up for work and then 529 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: you know, wasn't at the house he was renting. But 530 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: the idea that his brother was killed the night before 531 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 2: was just a coincidence to app This was the one 532 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 2: thing he just couldn't believe. That was ridiculous. Of course 533 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: that's not true. He's fleeing town, and Al called the cops. Wow, 534 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 2: the irony being that his brother was in fact killed 535 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 2: in a motorcycle accident. Oh wow, night before the cop 536 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: was shot and he was going to his brother's funeral, 537 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 2: and that's where they caught him. They caught him in 538 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 2: Chicago at his brother's funeral. 539 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: This must have just made Al sick to his stomach 540 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: as it starts to unfold. He must have just felt like, 541 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: what did I do? 542 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: The idea of L's responsibility again was a lot of 543 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: what started my interest in this story. How responsible are 544 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: you for somebody you vouched for, it's for somebody you 545 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 2: believe it. Where where does your responsibility lie? Al called 546 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 2: the warden and called his mentor, who had overseen his 547 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 2: work at Staatefhill for the arm research projects, and both 548 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 2: of them basically said, be quiet, let us do the talking. 549 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 2: They probably said it in nineteen sixties version, but that's 550 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: what they said. And so Al directed all questions to 551 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 2: the Wharton. He directed it all back to the people 552 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 2: in charge. And interestingly, while Al was talked about in 553 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: the newspapers, he was never mentioned. So there was almost 554 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 2: no one in his life who knew what he'd done 555 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: the part he played in this. At the trial, Joe 556 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,359 Speaker 2: talks about a doctor who he met at the penitentiary 557 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,439 Speaker 2: who found him this job, but nobody ever mentioned who 558 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: Al was. So this was a private, internal thing. It 559 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 2: was not a public flagellation. It was internal. How did 560 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 2: Al carry that through the rest of his life? He 561 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: became an expert in the social determinants of health. He 562 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: became an expert in what can we do to intervene 563 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: early in life that is non medical and will give 564 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: people better lifelong outcomes. And this was spurred by his 565 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 2: experience with Joe. I brought him to meet the Coups 566 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 2: kids wow, which was one of the most profound experiences 567 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 2: I've ever had. And we met at one of the 568 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: Coup's children's houses and it was all three children, their 569 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 2: partners and all of their children, so David Troy's in 570 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: law's children and grandchildren. Interesting it was the children who 571 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: had the most questions, David's grandchildren, but the youngest generation 572 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 2: in the room who had the most questioned and wanted 573 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 2: to know the most about their grandfather, who, of course 574 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: Al had never met. He had changed the lives of 575 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 2: everybody in this room, but he had never met anyone, 576 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 2: alive or dead, that was a member of the Troy family. 577 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 2: And they talked for a good hour and a half 578 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 2: about what Al did and why he did it, and 579 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: what it was about Joe that made Al vouch for him. 580 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: And at the very end, one of the grandkids just said, 581 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 2: you know, thank you so much for coming. This must 582 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 2: have been hard. Is there anything else you want to 583 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 2: make sure to tell us? And Al said, I just 584 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 2: wanted to say I'm sorry, not because I wrote that letter. 585 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 2: Given all the information I had, I made the best 586 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 2: decision I could have at the time, and I would 587 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: do that again. What I would change is when Joe 588 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: called and needed to see me, I would find a 589 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: way to see him. And one of the kids said, 590 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 2: would that have you know changed anything? Wasn't he basically 591 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 2: a train wreck? And Al said, I think eventually he 592 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: would have bought a gun, and eventually he probably might 593 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 2: even have killed someone, But it wouldn't have been that day, right, 594 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 2: and it wouldn't have been your father, And for that 595 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 2: I am sorry. 596 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: The theme that you had touched on, which I think 597 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: is so important, is that there is a reason why 598 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: he ended up in prison to begin with, and when 599 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: he came out it wasn't solved. No amount of compassion 600 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: from Al, no amount of whatever training he had in prison, 601 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: or any of that fixed what needed to be fixed. 602 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: I think the question I have for you is do 603 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: you or did Al think that had it not been 604 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: for that one letter, he would have still been in prison. 605 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: Was it really down to Al's letter? Given the Leopold 606 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 1: and Lobe stuff and all the other thing, he was 607 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: a model prisoner, It sounded like. 608 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 2: I think no one knows. Yeah, I think he probably 609 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 2: would have been released on parole at some point, if 610 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 2: not at that hearing, then at the next hearing. Yeah, 611 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: I think it's never one thing. I think it's a 612 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 2: confluence of various events that if you change one of them, 613 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: then you can arguably change everything. 614 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: It's like meeting your future spouse at a cafe. What 615 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: if I didn't go to the cafe. 616 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 2: That's the one everyone goes to. 617 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: You would have met someone else. 618 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one we all come up with and 619 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 2: you go on couple dates. Right. The dinner conversation, at 620 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 2: least in my experience, almost always so how'd you guys meet? 621 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 2: And they how did you guys meet? So often involves 622 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 2: some huge coincidence that changed everything, as if there's this 623 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: these other lives that we didn't lead, these other tracks. 624 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 2: There are a lot of train analogies in this book, 625 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,800 Speaker 2: but the other tracks that you didn't travel on. And again, 626 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 2: in a way this is deeply profound. In another way, 627 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 2: it's just everything everyone knows all the time. And what 628 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 2: I did is I took a decade and I sketched 629 00:39:55,719 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 2: the particular sets of facts and coincidences and choices and 630 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 2: decisions that led to this one result. I could write 631 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 2: this book about us. How did you and I end? 632 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 2: Up having this conversation at this particular. 633 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: Moment, tell me, because we know what happens with David, 634 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,800 Speaker 1: we know what happens with Al, what happens with Joseph 635 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: de Salvo when he returns to prison. 636 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: Joe, as I mentioned, testified. He took the stand in 637 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 2: his own defense. It was very much against his lawyer's advice. 638 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 2: And not only did he testify, he sat on the 639 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 2: stand and by all description, including the sister of David 640 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 2: Troy's widow, who I spoke to at length and was 641 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: sitting next to her during this. He testified staring directly 642 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 2: at the widow the entire time, and her reading of 643 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 2: it was not creepy, which that sentence can sound like, 644 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 2: and not threatening, which that sentence can sound like, but 645 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 2: rather confessional. This is all I can give you, and 646 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 2: so I am giving it to you answers, answers. It 647 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: is against my own interests, but it's all I have. 648 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 2: And he testified for the better part of two days 649 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 2: and told everything, which is an awful lot of how 650 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: I know all about him, and then he went back 651 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 2: to his prison cell and the next day I don't know, 652 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: because things like this just keep happening in this story, 653 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 2: there was an epic snowstorm and the entire state of 654 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 2: Connecticut was locked in, and so nobody could go for 655 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 2: the final closing arguments the next day and the day 656 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: after that, they plowed through the snow to go get 657 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,759 Speaker 2: Joe to take him to court, and he was dead 658 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 2: in his cell, and they found a slight slit in 659 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 2: his mattress where they guess he had hid the fifty 660 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 2: eight second all that he had gotten during his fifty 661 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 2: eight nights in prison, because the man was a creature 662 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 2: of prison, and he knew if you say I can't sleep, 663 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 2: but they give you a second all. 664 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: Wow. 665 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 2: He also had been taught by Al how to make 666 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 2: sure prisoners swallow their medicine, because in a drug trial 667 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 2: that's very important. And he had also apparently learned how 668 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 2: to fool guards when they are trying to make sure 669 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 2: you swallow your medicine. So he saved all of these 670 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 2: fifty eight second off and took them all at once, 671 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 2: and he left a note. On one side he quoted 672 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 2: Emerson because that was the kind of guy he was, 673 00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 2: And on the other side he apologized to Al. 674 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: How did Al feel about all of that? What a 675 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: journey with this one man. 676 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,480 Speaker 2: He didn't tell the story and awful lot until it 677 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 2: came along fifty years later. So it was not a 678 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 2: point of pride. It was I think a subject of 679 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 2: some guilt, and I think it sort of sent his 680 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 2: career in a different direction. Was going to figure out 681 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 2: how to figure this out? Because that was just what 682 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:04,919 Speaker 2: he did. 683 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,399 Speaker 1: Well, what did he figure out ultimately? What is his 684 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: legacy in this field of trying to help people before 685 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: they hurt people? 686 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 2: I think where he landed is kind of reflected by 687 00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 2: a scene in the book. There is another man. His 688 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: name is Dante. He was the brother of the woman 689 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 2: who would become David Troy's wife. He too was from 690 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 2: a family of Italian immigrants. He too had an abusive 691 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 2: father who was a drunk who disappeared on the family 692 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 2: after traumatizing them first. He too went a well from 693 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,839 Speaker 2: the army and got into fights and was a nair 694 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 2: do well and had the police on his heels many times. 695 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 2: He did not have a police record, but he wasn't 696 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,320 Speaker 2: heading anywhere good and he ended up using the GI 697 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 2: bill to go to college and a professor there, returned 698 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 2: his first philosophy paper with glowing reviews and it was 699 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 2: part of a lesson where the bottom line of this 700 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: lesson was the difference between a kid who does well 701 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 2: and who falls apart is somebody who cares about them 702 00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,840 Speaker 2: before the age of seven, and Dante had those people 703 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 2: in his life. Al had those people in his life, 704 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,040 Speaker 2: and Joe DeSalvo never did. In a way, I hate 705 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 2: the moral of my own book, which was this killer 706 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 2: probably never had a chance because of everything that happened 707 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 2: to him, some of it before he was born. But 708 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,239 Speaker 2: Al's takeaway was yes, but what is our responsibility as 709 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 2: a society to see that there were more of those 710 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 2: people in the lives of more of those children. So 711 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 2: that's where he landed in his life and in his career, 712 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 2: and that's what he could live with. 713 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,399 Speaker 1: So was he able to be there? You know when 714 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: you do your first book signings, when the book is launched. 715 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 2: In all of that, the pub date for this book 716 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 2: was May of twenty twenty three, and that was the 717 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 2: day I went to his funeral. The dedication says to 718 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 2: Alvin Tarlov, thank you for entrusting me with your memories. 719 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,440 Speaker 2: I chose the word intrusting with a lot of thought. 720 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,520 Speaker 2: He didn't just trust me to tell the story. He 721 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 2: handed over his memories to me for safe keeping, so 722 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 2: I figure he gave me a story, and he told 723 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 2: me to tell it, and kind of knew that if 724 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 2: I didn't, it would disappear. So I went and I 725 00:45:50,440 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 2: told his story. 726 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 727 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,160 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That 728 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,720 Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 729 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate 730 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed by John Bradley. 731 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive 732 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow 733 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked 734 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know 735 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from 736 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info 737 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for 738 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words