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Speaker 2: Slash audio A wellcome to tonight, you're at the volume?
Speaker 2: Have you Monday? Everybody? Hope? All of you guys having
Speaker 2: a great start to your week. Well. The pinnacle game
Speaker 2: of the NBA Finals Tonight Gate Series tied at two
Speaker 2: back in Oklahoma City and the thunder behind seventy one
Speaker 2: combined points from Shake Gilgess Alexander and Jalen Williams take
Speaker 2: a three to two lead in the series. Colin Coward
Speaker 2: is joining us again. Colin, you and I talked last
Speaker 2: after Game three. I believe about the rosters, and we
Speaker 2: talked about how down the roster Indiana's pretty close in
Speaker 2: terms of depth of talent, but at the top end
Speaker 2: on Oklahoma City can be tough to contend with. And
Speaker 2: I thought both JDub and Shay were brilliant tonight. What
Speaker 2: were your thoughts on game five?
Speaker 1: Oh, Jalen Williams is such an interesting player. So he
Speaker 1: goes to a small college, Santa Clara, and you know
Speaker 1: is a slow developing player. And the last part of
Speaker 1: his game to mature was scoring. You know, he was long,
Speaker 1: He worked really hard. I think both of his parents
Speaker 1: were in the military, you know, class like hard working
Speaker 1: no bs.
Speaker 3: You know, you can see his game, you can see
Speaker 3: the work.
Speaker 1: He's put into it. Whenever you see a guy with
Speaker 1: great touch around the rim. A lot of guys can
Speaker 1: hit jumpers. Everybody had, you know, everybody sits in huge
Speaker 1: jumpers all day at practice. But when I see a
Speaker 1: guy that's elegant and soft around the rim, like that's work.
Speaker 1: That is years of working in the gym, often by yourself,
Speaker 1: and you know, so here's the guy small college developed
Speaker 1: slowly comes into the NBA, and you and I have.
Speaker 3: Talked about this.
Speaker 1: I always thought, because Chuck Holmgrim was he's a really
Speaker 1: good defender. First half the night he was incredible. And
Speaker 1: I always thought, because his body type is so unique,
Speaker 1: can you pay home gren sj and Jalen Williams And
Speaker 1: I always thought they just keep homegrin. But his offense
Speaker 1: is so all over the map, and Jalen Williams is
Speaker 1: just such a natural easy score that you I just
Speaker 1: feel like if I said for the rest of his career,
Speaker 1: he averaged twenty seven and like, not all of them
Speaker 1: are memorable. It's just he just fills the box, like
Speaker 1: gets jumpers.
Speaker 3: It's touch. It's just he's just such a natural easy score.
Speaker 3: I don't even know if he has a go to move.
Speaker 1: Almost every guy, Like if guys said, close your eyes
Speaker 1: Jason twenty seven points a game. If I said Durant
Speaker 1: or staff and I give you players, you can kind
Speaker 1: of see the archetype of their offense, Like you can say, okay,
Speaker 1: that's his move. That Halliburton's three with Jalen Williams. It's
Speaker 1: just all over the place, threes, driving transition. I just
Speaker 1: there's not a lot of guys in the league like him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, his power, I think is his signature. And I've
Speaker 2: actually found this really fascinating because if you dig back
Speaker 2: through NBA history recently, we're on like a decade plus
Speaker 2: nowhere where power dominates in the NBA finals unless your
Speaker 2: name is Steph Curry. Like, you go back and it's like,
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four, you know, Luca, Luca is the
Speaker 2: best player in the playoffs. He brings a ton of
Speaker 2: power to the position. Twenty twenty three, it's Jokic obviously,
Speaker 2: Stephan twenty twenty two, but in twenty one it's Yannis power.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty it's Lebron power. Twenty nineteen it's Kawhi power.
Speaker 2: You go back again, more Steph Curry, but then it's Lebron,
Speaker 2: it's dunkin in Kawhi. There's a reason why power thrives
Speaker 2: in this setting, and it's because it gets super physical.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's you know, it's really fascinating to me.
Speaker 2: I've talked about this concept with you before, but to me,
Speaker 2: ball pressure in physicality on the perimeter in the NBA
Speaker 2: is similar to me like a pass rush in the NFL.
Speaker 2: And we see this so often in the NFL playoffs
Speaker 2: where a pass rush gets hot and nobody can protect
Speaker 2: quarterback and plays all breakdown within the first second and
Speaker 2: a half after the snap, and it changes the entire
Speaker 2: dynamic of a game. And that's the test you have
Speaker 2: to pass with this Oklahoma City Thunder team, with this
Speaker 2: Indiana Pacers team, with their ball pressure. These two teams
Speaker 2: they pick you up full court. They're super physical, and
Speaker 2: it's the powerful guys that thrive. I mean, you don't
Speaker 2: think it's a coincidence that TJ McConnell was awesome again
Speaker 2: tonight because he brings power to the guard position. And
Speaker 2: what Jdubb is is he is a big, strong wing
Speaker 2: that brings downhill power. And you're right, like I would argue,
Speaker 2: J Dubb's you know, skill, talent, imposition on the game
Speaker 2: is his versatility. He's just really good at everything. You
Speaker 2: look at other power players from the wing, like look
Speaker 2: at Jaylen Brown from the Celtics, nowhere near the passer
Speaker 2: that Jadub is and the processor that Jadub is. JDub
Speaker 2: brings this mix of downhill power with shot making from
Speaker 2: all three levels, the soft touch around the basket, the
Speaker 2: mid range pull ups, the three point shooting, but also
Speaker 2: the playmaking to boot. And then he's also been a
Speaker 2: guy that's been one of the most important defensive players
Speaker 2: for the Thunder all season. He is, to me, the
Speaker 2: definition of the type of player that's going to thrive
Speaker 2: in the playoffs for a long time. A strong forward
Speaker 2: that can do everything. He is the Jimmy Butler of
Speaker 2: this era.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's one of those guy. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about his comp tonight, and he's got
Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler.
Speaker 3: He feels, you know.
Speaker 1: He he's only about six five and a half, like
Speaker 1: he plays bigger than his size, and I think that's
Speaker 1: his length and his touch. But I really thought the
Speaker 1: story of the game wasn't SGA. I thought the story
Speaker 1: of the game was Holmgren's defense. First half around the rim,
Speaker 1: I mean, the Pacers probably missed eight chippies. And then
Speaker 1: I thought in the second half, every time they got close,
Speaker 1: it was really j Dubb that hit a shot, and
Speaker 1: I mean, so did SGA. But I was like encouraged.
Speaker 1: I thought the fact that Indiana got it down to
Speaker 1: two or three. I was like, this is impossible. This
Speaker 1: is not winning this game, you know, without Halliburton to
Speaker 1: be pretty competitive in the second half, I think speaks
Speaker 1: well to Indiana. I think they'll play willy competitive basketball
Speaker 1: in Game six. You know, I think we've kind of
Speaker 1: established defense wins championships. And I thought the last three
Speaker 1: minutes of the last game and tonight, early and late,
Speaker 1: it's just we're seeing this defense. Like you say, they
Speaker 1: clog you up and suffocate you on the perimeter. You
Speaker 1: drive sort of sometimes out of control because you're just
Speaker 1: they got a body on you, and then you throw
Speaker 1: up kind of a wild shot, and it's often met
Speaker 1: with resistance at the rim. Even the follow ups to
Speaker 1: your misses, even the follow ups are contested. There's just
Speaker 1: length and Hartenstein and home grin and bodies. So I
Speaker 1: think we're seeing and I talked about this the other
Speaker 1: day with JAMAC on the air. When we have historically
Speaker 1: great defenses against great offenses, defense usually wins.
Speaker 3: It's just disruptive.
Speaker 1: We've seen Patrick Mahomes blown out twice in his career,
Speaker 1: both in Super Bowls when he couldn't be protected. I
Speaker 1: feel like Indiana's just has just been disrupt and they
Speaker 1: without Haliburton at full strength, they just don't have a flow.
Speaker 3: There's no flow to their offense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought Shaye was great again tonight. I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, it's been interesting. He's had a couple of
Speaker 2: higher scoring total games in this series. He had thirty
Speaker 2: five in Game four. Didn't think he was particularly great
Speaker 2: in that game, Dad, I think he had thirty four
Speaker 2: in Game one. I didn't think he was particularly great
Speaker 2: in that game. But in this game you could tell
Speaker 2: right out the gates he was making that concerted effort
Speaker 2: to keep his teammates involved. Colin, they only attempted sixteen
Speaker 2: threes in Game four. They had seventeen three point attempts
Speaker 2: just in the first half tonight because of the better
Speaker 2: floor game that Shaye was playing, keeping everybody involved. But
Speaker 2: every time I think about this Thunder team, it is
Speaker 2: the defense that I'll remember, Like when people talk to
Speaker 2: me about this Thunder team, I will remember them as
Speaker 2: a defensive juggernaut, and like it's the two layer approach,
Speaker 2: and you described it perfectly. It is the physical ball
Speaker 2: pressure that causes you to rush and panic that is
Speaker 2: then layered by the rim protection and it even extends
Speaker 2: beyond shell or beyond shed, like she several times tonight
Speaker 2: deflections around the basket because he's got super long arms
Speaker 2: down there. You know, Chet to me is like kind
Speaker 2: of the secret sauce of this defense though, because you
Speaker 2: know Colin, we saw a great example in the Houston
Speaker 2: of Golden State series in round one. You can have
Speaker 2: really good perimeter defenders, but every team needs to have
Speaker 2: big guys on the floor because big guys are a
Speaker 2: part of basketball, right, Like he can't just go out
Speaker 2: there and play five guards. You'll have all sorts of issues.
Speaker 2: And big guys are targets. They are the point at
Speaker 2: which every offense tries to get into your defense by
Speaker 2: attacking your big guy in pick and roll. And Chet
Speaker 2: is just this freakish weapon because he can do all
Speaker 2: the big guy stuff in terms of length around the rim,
Speaker 2: but he can also switch out onto the perimeter and
Speaker 2: guard these guards, and so it's like the it's like
Speaker 2: the ace in the hole for this thunder defense is
Speaker 2: like a lot of times you'll fail the first test,
Speaker 2: like when Pascal hit that three to make it ninety
Speaker 2: five ninety three. From that point forward, Indy could barely
Speaker 2: get the ball across half court without turning the ball over,
Speaker 2: so like their guards can do an insane amount of damage.
Speaker 2: But it's like, even if you pass that test and
Speaker 2: you get through the ball pressure and you move the
Speaker 2: ball through their defense and you get something around the rim,
Speaker 2: it's just arms everywhere that you're dealing with at the
Speaker 2: rim and all of those misses, all of those contested
Speaker 2: rebounds that they came down with. Oklahoma City's defense is layered.
Speaker 2: It's frightening. It wears you down. I mean like Indy
Speaker 2: was right there and they let go of the rope
Speaker 2: for like ninety seconds and they're down thirteen points. And
Speaker 2: I'm with you, as we had the game six, I
Speaker 2: think Indiana always is going to have a chance at
Speaker 2: home with the energy Oklahoma City's young we have discussed
Speaker 2: on this show. Oklahoma City on the road is not
Speaker 2: the same team. But I thought Indiana's chance to win
Speaker 2: this series was to win the home games because I
Speaker 2: just think Oklahoma City can lay like leverage their athleticism
Speaker 2: at home in a way that Indy just can't match.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again Halliburton's hurt. It's not the same team'd
Speaker 1: be like taking you know to some degree SGA out.
Speaker 1: So I thought Caruso again tonight, I mean they forced
Speaker 1: twenty three turnovers the thunder did think about that. Indies
Speaker 1: a team all year that didn't turn the ball over,
Speaker 1: like Halliburton doesn't turn the ball over. So you take
Speaker 1: Halliburton out a lot tonight and it looks really sloppy,
Speaker 1: really fast. Again, They're They're just a special team, you know.
Speaker 1: I think you know, Indiana is a surprise to be here.
Speaker 1: And the West is much better than the East, and
Speaker 1: so like in the football, the AFC is much better
Speaker 1: than the NFC. So the AFC becomes much more predictable
Speaker 1: because you have four or five elite teams Chiefs, Bills, Ravens,
Speaker 1: and I think the West is more predictable because you
Speaker 1: have like Oklahoma City has the leading scorer and the
Speaker 1: best defense, and Denver has the best player in the world,
Speaker 1: and the Warriors have the Steve Kerr and at Draymond
Speaker 1: and Butler and Steph and you kind of know what
Speaker 1: you're getting in the West, whereas in the East it's
Speaker 1: like who's healthy and who's hot. So Indiana just flies through.
Speaker 1: But I will say, is so I think the East
Speaker 1: is wide open and I think Indiana's.
Speaker 3: Pop or now.
Speaker 1: They were in the Eastern Conference finals last year, but
Speaker 1: I mean they flew through Milwaukee, flew through Cleveland, controlled.
Speaker 3: New York, and we're two.
Speaker 1: Two with this team. And I think some of the
Speaker 1: trade that Memphis and Orlando made was Orlando going, Okay,
Speaker 1: the Knicks don't have a coach, Tatum's hurt next year,
Speaker 1: why can't we do in Indiana? We got sugs, we
Speaker 1: got BN Caro, we got Wagner. Let's go get a
Speaker 1: Western player whoeverage is nineteen, he may average twenty two
Speaker 1: over here. And I think I think Orlando looked at
Speaker 1: Indiana and thought, why not us. I mean, I mean,
Speaker 1: they don't have a guy that scores over twenty. BN
Speaker 1: Caro could be first team All NBA next year. So
Speaker 1: I think when I watch Indiana, I think they're they're
Speaker 1: they're encouraging. They've got young, astnding players, they've kind of
Speaker 1: meshed together in the East, and you're like, Okay, it
Speaker 1: was one thing when Boston was.
Speaker 3: Winning with a stacked roster.
Speaker 1: Indiana, I can't in I think I said it during
Speaker 1: the Boston Orlando series. I'm like, man, they're about a
Speaker 1: year away from being really really good. So I think
Speaker 1: Indiana is one of those teams that may not make
Speaker 1: it back and it may just be lightning in a bottle.
Speaker 3: I really like them a lot, but I.
Speaker 1: Think okay See is historically special defensively and we're seeing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the the East to me feels wide open in
Speaker 2: a different way where I agree with you. Like the
Speaker 2: Boston was like this clear number one out east, but
Speaker 2: then you had this like group of three four teams
Speaker 2: that you knew were going to be in the mix,
Speaker 2: you know, Milwaukee, New York. That was the mix that
Speaker 2: we knew was going to be at the top. But
Speaker 2: now with Boston kind of dropping out of that group,
Speaker 2: it does feel wide open. Like Eveland is very good,
Speaker 2: but everyone knows they're beatable, Like the Bucks will be
Speaker 2: there if Giannis is still there, but like we know
Speaker 2: that they're beatable. The Knicks, we know that they have
Speaker 2: their flaws and their issues. They have a front court
Speaker 2: that you can attack defensively, and I think what the
Speaker 2: Pacers have demonstrated in a lot of ways is that
Speaker 2: you can, you know, OutKick your coverage, so to speak,
Speaker 2: in terms of the talent on your roster when there
Speaker 2: is a great deal of one that the coaching that
Speaker 2: maximizes the talent. But the second piece is from a
Speaker 2: general management perspective, like actual complimentary pieces that fit and
Speaker 2: accentuate each other. And that, to me is what I
Speaker 2: look at with the Desmond Bain trade, because like, your
Speaker 2: initial reaction when you see that sort of thing is
Speaker 2: to go four first round picks unprotected, Like, my goodness,
Speaker 2: that's a steep paycheck, and like I get that on
Speaker 2: the surface, and ultimately whether or not that ends up
Speaker 2: being worthwhile will be whether or not this team has success,
Speaker 2: and if they have success, they make the finals. No
Speaker 2: one's going to care about those four first round picks.
Speaker 2: It's about whether or not this pays off. And Desmond
Speaker 2: Baine is a perfectly complimentary player to what those two
Speaker 2: guys do. Is he is one of the best jump
Speaker 2: shooters in the NBA. Among fifty eight players this year
Speaker 2: to attempt at least five hundred jumpers, he ranked twelve
Speaker 2: in efficiency.
Speaker 3: By the way, Colin and the Magic couldn't shoot last year.
Speaker 3: That's what they couldn't do.
Speaker 2: They couldn't shoot. By the way, you want to know
Speaker 2: his number one on that list, Kevin Durant Kevin Durant
Speaker 2: is still the best jump shooter in the NBA. I
Speaker 2: thought that was interesting when I was digging into the data.
Speaker 2: But he specifically shot sixty percent from the field on
Speaker 2: shot attempts coming off of off ball screens. So when
Speaker 2: he comes running off of action off the ball, he
Speaker 2: knocks it down at an extremely high rate. He shot
Speaker 2: fifty two percent on threes specifically coming off of off
Speaker 2: ball screens. The magic could not create space for Palo
Speaker 2: in Franz. That was the problem the Desmond Bane in Memphis,
Speaker 2: they so desperately needed him to hit shots because he
Speaker 2: was their secondary shot creator. It was a little bit
Speaker 2: too much for him. But in this setting next to Franz,
Speaker 2: next to it's more important for him to be able
Speaker 2: to create openings for them. His ability to shoot on
Speaker 2: the move, shoot it out of screens, shoot off the dribble. Specifically,
Speaker 2: in the context of Franz and Paolo, you're going to
Speaker 2: get as a force multiplier rather than a diminishing return.
Speaker 2: And that really is the key. Like when I'm looking
Speaker 2: at talent, it's like they could have gone and got
Speaker 2: Bradley Beal and maybe that's a player that you think
Speaker 2: is maybe a higher regarded player in the league or
Speaker 2: something like that. Desmond Bane's talent fits perfectly with those
Speaker 2: guys in a wide open conference, and that's a huge, big,
Speaker 2: strong team that should be able to cause a lot
Speaker 2: of damage with their physicality. And the last thing I'll
Speaker 2: say about it, Colin, Desmond's not the best defender in
Speaker 2: the world, but he's pretty solid. Jalen Suggs is the
Speaker 2: best guard defender in the world, and so he will
Speaker 2: never have to guard the best guard on the other team.
Speaker 2: He's gonna be in favorable matchups, He's going to be
Speaker 2: surrounded by physicality. His skill set perfectly matches what Franz
Speaker 2: and Paolo do. I think it was a type of
Speaker 2: swing that could legitimately put them in the finals. And Colin,
Speaker 2: you're the one who's always preaching this on your show. Yes,
Speaker 2: it was expensive, so was Kawhi for the Raptors in
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. At a certain point, you got to push
Speaker 2: your chips in the middle if you want to try
Speaker 2: to win well.
Speaker 1: And I again, I think Orlando looks at it and thinks, Listen,
Speaker 1: Baine's like twenty five or twenty six years old.
Speaker 3: It's like Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: You don't have this aged star, you don't have this
Speaker 1: one gigantic paycheck. It's like everybody's pulling in the same direction.
Speaker 1: Like did they bring in Hartenstein. He's a starter but
Speaker 1: like kind of a role player but great energy, and
Speaker 1: everybody welcomes them in, Like everybody that like Baine. I
Speaker 1: was watching the videos today when he got to Orlando.
Speaker 1: The guys were like, it's it's like he's one.
Speaker 3: Of the guys.
Speaker 1: He's a young guy who, by the way, because he
Speaker 1: was in Memphis behind Jahn Morant, probably didn't get appreciated
Speaker 1: a lot or a lot of attention. And Bain was
Speaker 1: the more mature player, the more consistent player, the more
Speaker 1: available player.
Speaker 3: And the better shooter.
Speaker 1: But John Moran it's great for highlights, so Bain gets overlooked,
Speaker 1: but not by smart GM. So Bain's probably like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I get into a more you know this is
Speaker 1: I mean Sugs, the Gonzaga guy, Bnkaro, Duke, Guy Vogner's
Speaker 1: at Michigan guy like there, these are grown ups.
Speaker 3: They're ready to play.
Speaker 1: And I thought, I think we talked about this in
Speaker 1: the Boston series. It was like two or three times
Speaker 1: you and I were like, what the hell is this
Speaker 1: series so competitive? Like like Orlando can't shoot, Boston takes
Speaker 1: the most this shit. We should have some blowouts and
Speaker 1: we didn't. The games were really competitive. We felt that
Speaker 1: way about the Knicks and the Pistons too. It's like,
Speaker 1: what Scott kid Cunningham's really graduated to another class. And
Speaker 1: so I liked it, and I also just aggressive wins.
Speaker 1: Go get Katie and Golden State the Lakers, you know,
Speaker 1: trade for gasol, trade for Shack. Take big swings. Absolutely
Speaker 1: poor Zingis and Drew Holliday. Boston, like, you have to
Speaker 1: take swings in this league because you're not going to
Speaker 1: be able to bank these stars. You're not gonna have
Speaker 1: the Heetls, You're not gonna have Katie to the Warriors.
Speaker 3: So what you're gonna do is, can.
Speaker 1: You get a group of really good B plus A
Speaker 1: minus guys that all fit and Orlando fits Bain literally
Speaker 1: fits perfectly with a team. Yeah, it'd be better if
Speaker 1: it was two first not four, but those are gonna
Speaker 1: be low first round picks.
Speaker 3: Anyway, so I can live with it.
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Speaker 2: And there's like this. The splitting the different two timelines
Speaker 2: approach comes with its own shortcomings. Like obviously, Golden State
Speaker 2: was very fortunate on the strength of Steph to win
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two, but they've been paying the price
Speaker 2: for not cashing in on some of their assets over
Speaker 2: the course of the of the last few years. I
Speaker 2: feel like Dallas is kind of staring down the barrel
Speaker 2: of a similar type of situation. Like you got to
Speaker 2: capitalize on the value that ad brings to the table
Speaker 2: if you want to have sustained success around Cooper Flag
Speaker 2: and like I just look at it as I look
Speaker 2: at it as just an aggressive move that fits perfectly.
Speaker 2: Desmond Bain has grown a lot too as a passer
Speaker 2: coming off of screening actions, and I look at that
Speaker 2: as something like a simple dynamic in the NBA that
Speaker 2: can cause all sorts of problems. Is if you can
Speaker 2: run a two man game where they don't want to switch.
Speaker 2: And the problem is is when Franz and Pallo are together,
Speaker 2: they get guarded by similar players, big strong forwards, and
Speaker 2: with Jalen Suggs, he never shot the ball well enough
Speaker 2: for teams to really account for him in those actions.
Speaker 2: If you, as Desmond bain As one of the best
Speaker 2: shooters in the league, come flying off of a screen
Speaker 2: with Pawlow, you have no choice but to either switch
Speaker 2: or to show, in which case Powlo will get better matchups,
Speaker 2: He'll get more smalls to attack, He'll get more openings
Speaker 2: to attack. I think it's just a really, really smart fit.
Speaker 2: John Moran, on the other hand, gonna be twenty six
Speaker 2: years old at the start of next season.
Speaker 3: How are you like?
Speaker 2: I want to hear your take on the John Morant
Speaker 2: Memphis situation.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I feel vindicated, So I have been. This
Speaker 1: has been one of my strongest NBA takes forever, which
Speaker 1: is if you're under six to four in this league
Speaker 1: and have the ball in your hands a lot. If
Speaker 1: you cannot shoot John Wall, you know, Westbrook, Derek Rose,
Speaker 1: John Morant, you're gonna have to drive to the basket
Speaker 1: against bigger players and you're going to get hurt more often.
Speaker 1: If you're Steve Nash or Steph Curry and can shoot,
Speaker 1: it can prolong your career. You can do at you know,
Speaker 1: you don't have to drive. You get a lot of
Speaker 1: no contact looks. And my take on John Morant was yes,
Speaker 1: I so it was said. I thought he was a
Speaker 1: poor man's Dereck Rose. He's about fifteen pounds less than
Speaker 1: Derreck Rose. And you know, I understand the NBA.
Speaker 3: Media, he's a highlight player.
Speaker 1: Forget the maturity for a second, which is I'm never
Speaker 1: too hard on guys about maturity. I'm much tougher on
Speaker 1: football players because they're twenty three and twenty four years old.
Speaker 1: You bring twenty two year old, you bring eighteen nineteen
Speaker 1: year old guys into the NBA, Okay, they're gonna screw
Speaker 1: up like the first couple of years. Just just build
Speaker 1: in a really bad decision. Now with Jaw it was
Speaker 1: worse than that. But for me, it wasn't the maturity
Speaker 1: stuff because he's a kid. It was okay, he's wildly
Speaker 1: he's wildly entertaining. He's an incredible highlight player, but he's
Speaker 1: not an effective shooter. And by the way, the last
Speaker 1: several years it's gotten worse and he's hurt more so.
Speaker 3: He has aged very quickly.
Speaker 1: So I've never been a fan of hyper athletic guards
Speaker 1: that aren't particularly good shooters. Now, Westbrook was so athletic
Speaker 1: that he could be a poor shoe. And you know,
Speaker 1: he's bouncing around the league now, but he Eire's just
Speaker 1: not a lot of Westbrook's historically, and Westbrook mostly is healthy.
Speaker 3: He's a sturdy he has a running back. Jaw's not
Speaker 3: I mean, what's job one eighty.
Speaker 1: You know, one seventy eight, So he's spindily. So I
Speaker 1: just it's not that I wasn't a fan. He was
Speaker 1: a spectacular talent. But I think everybody in the league
Speaker 1: thought Zion and Jaw were going to take it over,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be a it's gonna be bang Caro
Speaker 1: and SGA and these players. I mean, it's just it's
Speaker 1: just interesting how much maturity and hard work matters, you know,
Speaker 1: JDub Sga home grun I mean, it's just like really focused, driven,
Speaker 1: aspirational players. And I think it was just too much,
Speaker 1: too soon for him, and he got banged up. And
Speaker 1: I think Memphis, by the trade, is telling you we're
Speaker 1: going to start over. We're going to start and it's
Speaker 1: the right move. They can't compete. We knew it this year.
Speaker 1: It's the right move by Memphis. I actually like what
Speaker 1: Memphis did. It's just they won't be very good for
Speaker 1: a couple of years.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: You know, we were talking about power earlier, and the
Speaker 2: one example of a guy who succeeded despite a lack
Speaker 2: of power is Steph And Steph is both a great
Speaker 2: shooter and someone who has been consistently available to his team.
Speaker 2: He's been healthy and and the tricky thing with like
Speaker 2: John's gonna be twenty six years old at the start
Speaker 2: of next season, and he's just straight up not as
Speaker 2: good as he was three years ago. Like not as good,
Speaker 2: he's just not as good as a bad at basketball,
Speaker 2: And like, this is the age twenty six to twenty
Speaker 2: seven is typically the age when players peak, like Tatum
Speaker 2: best season of his career right at this age. This
Speaker 2: is the age when everyone seems to kind of figure
Speaker 2: it out. It's where it's kind of where like the
Speaker 2: meeting point of the mental part of the game and
Speaker 2: the physical part of the game. And from this point
Speaker 2: forward it's kind of like a trade off. You get
Speaker 2: a little smarter, a little more skilled, but you get
Speaker 2: a little less athletic. This is the peak, right and instead,
Speaker 2: like his scoring volume has like in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: takes his team to within two wins of the conference finals,
Speaker 2: he's going head to head with Steph talking shit to
Speaker 2: him having such a great breakout playoff run. And ever
Speaker 2: since then, his scoring volume has dropped every season since
Speaker 2: that year, his efficiency has gone down. He just posted
Speaker 2: his two lowest games played totals of his career in
Speaker 2: the last two seasons. He's played fewer games in the
Speaker 2: last two years than he did three years ago combined. Like,
Speaker 2: it's been a downward trajectory. And so if you're Memphis
Speaker 2: and you're looking at it, you just got four unprotected
Speaker 2: first round picks from Orlando. There still is some young,
Speaker 2: exciting talent on the roster, some guys like Gigi Jackson
Speaker 2: that are interesting, Zach Edy that's interesting. They have guys
Speaker 2: in house that they can continue to develop and be fun.
Speaker 2: But they can bring in a massive trove of draft
Speaker 2: picks by trading Maranton Bain and just doing a full pivot.
Speaker 2: Not to mention Jaron Jackson, who I think carries a
Speaker 2: great deal of value somewhere around the league, and so
Speaker 2: I look at it as like a basically it's a
Speaker 2: turning point for John Rant. You either got to commit
Speaker 2: to him or you've got to get off the ship,
Speaker 2: and the trade is a clear sign that they're going
Speaker 2: to get off the ship. Not to mention like they
Speaker 2: might look to trade KCP. I wouldn't be surprised if
Speaker 2: KCP gets moved to a contender at some point in
Speaker 2: the next season. I think it's just Memphis looking at
Speaker 2: their situation and going like, we're sick of being in
Speaker 2: this business.
Speaker 3: It's so.
Speaker 1: Jaw is such a cautionary tale. When you look at
Speaker 1: at big stars that explode and then and then fall
Speaker 1: off and don't eventually rise to the level, it's always
Speaker 1: kind of a maturity thing. It's almost always that like
Speaker 1: you just couldn't handle a spot, like like Zion couldn't
Speaker 1: handle his weight. Wasn't terribly focused player. Zion I thought
Speaker 1: was a tremendously just massive torque. There's just nothing like him.
Speaker 1: I thought Joe was spectacular. But I think it's it's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I like nil as kids are
Speaker 1: going to stay in college and they're going to be
Speaker 1: surrounded by non basketball players and they're going to be
Speaker 1: coached hard, and they'll go to class and it's like
Speaker 1: a it's a it's a big broad life beyond just
Speaker 1: basketball and a G league. So I think, and I've
Speaker 1: talked about this multiple times, I think Nil's were going
Speaker 1: to help the NBA and college basketball and you're gonna
Speaker 1: get more guys. The Auburn player who j Mack loves.
Speaker 1: Auburn's got a guard that's explosive. He's coming back to Auburn.
Speaker 1: He could play in the NBA. It'll make him a
Speaker 1: better NBA player and a great college player. So and
Speaker 1: some of these European guys now are coming over to
Speaker 1: college basketball. So I think the coaching in college basketball
Speaker 1: has always been excellent, sometimes almost too dogmatic, right, like
Speaker 1: it's just so coach oriented. But I look at Jaw
Speaker 1: and I think the story of Jaw is a little
Speaker 1: too much too soon and just wasn't quite ready for
Speaker 1: the stage. I mean, there was a moment in time
Speaker 1: where you thought, for about a year maybe two, you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's gonna be the face of the league. I mean
Speaker 1: that was about three years ago, and then it all
Speaker 1: just unraveled. And I don't think we need a face
Speaker 1: in the league. I thought he for a while looked
Speaker 1: like it. He just wasn't ready for it. It's a
Speaker 1: lot to ask and he wasn't ready for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what happens in this league. It's success
Speaker 2: is so short lived because people are coming for you.
Speaker 2: You know, Like Jannis looks like he climbs the mountaintop
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, looks like he's going to launch
Speaker 2: this new Nope, here comes Jokich and he's the problem.
Speaker 2: It's like Jah looks like he's about to climb the
Speaker 2: mountaintop in twenty twenty two. Shay and Ant have both
Speaker 2: lacked him since they've kind of reached their collective ceilings,
Speaker 2: and like, I think, you know, I do believe in
Speaker 2: John Morant. I do. He has a supreme athletic trait
Speaker 2: in the ability to get downhill. He actually is an
Speaker 2: underrated shot maker close to the rim in terms of
Speaker 2: like his floater and like little short stuff, I do
Speaker 2: think there's somebody that should probably consider taking a bet
Speaker 2: on him, a chance on him. As I look around,
Speaker 2: and you know, we're gonna talk about KD here in
Speaker 2: a second and KD as we're gonna talk about it
Speaker 2: in more detailer in a second. But the Athletic has
Speaker 2: reported that Katie is preferring the Spurs, which we'll get
Speaker 2: to in a minute. But like Houston, if Houston can't
Speaker 2: get KD, Like, would they consider a guy like John Morant?
Speaker 2: Is there a team out there that has the that's
Speaker 2: in a tough position that can afford to take that
Speaker 2: kind of risk, maybe a Sacramento a team that's been
Speaker 2: kind of stuck in mediocrity, Like, is there a team
Speaker 2: out there that is willing to take a risk on
Speaker 2: a guy like him? Because I do think the upside
Speaker 2: is their calling. Like I I've seen a lot of
Speaker 2: stuff over the last couple of days ranking him at
Speaker 2: various points in the league, and I do think when
Speaker 2: he's healthy, he's still like a right around the fourteenth
Speaker 2: or fifteenth best player in the NBA because no one
Speaker 2: can keep him in front. He is an extremely talented player,
Speaker 2: That's the frustrating part is that it hasn't come together.
Speaker 2: But I do think that there's some somebody out there
Speaker 2: that's going to take a chance on him. But ultimately,
Speaker 2: whether or not it works out is going to whether
Speaker 2: or not Jaw actually makes the changes that he needs to.
Speaker 2: Like you, got to improve, Like you, you have to
Speaker 2: develop as a jump shooter to take it easier on
Speaker 2: your legs. If he develops as a jump shooter, it
Speaker 2: will make his downhill drives more dynamic and less frequent,
Speaker 2: which will help him stay healthier and available to his team.
Speaker 2: There is a real upside there, he just hasn't been
Speaker 2: able to capitalize on it. Colin, what are your thoughts
Speaker 2: on the report that Kevin Durant prefers the Spurs. I
Speaker 2: was not a huge fan of this fit. We were
Speaker 2: talking last week about how Wemby being very thin, KD
Speaker 2: being very thin, even deeron Fox is. He's a super
Speaker 2: fast guard, but he's not a power player. Not a
Speaker 2: lot of power on that roster. Colin, what are your
Speaker 2: thoughts on KD potentially going to the Spurs?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean to me, wem Bin Yama and Stefan
Speaker 1: Castle are the are the team. Like, that's nothing against
Speaker 1: de Aaron and Vassal, but I think those two guys
Speaker 1: are all stars, one of them all NBA. So and
Speaker 1: I think they're just getting better fast.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: I'm always cautious to say Kevin Durant doesn't fit anywhere.
Speaker 1: I think he fits everywhere. Like my wife always says,
Speaker 1: says like salt works with everything, you know, Like like
Speaker 1: like my son was a chef. My stepson's like, yeah, Bacon,
Speaker 1: Grease and butter work with everything. That's Kevin Durant. Like
Speaker 1: you can just find a spot for a guy who's
Speaker 1: the best jump shooter at any given juncture in the league.
Speaker 3: So and I.
Speaker 1: Also think Kevin it just kind of figures it out.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: I don't always like his decision making on teams, but
Speaker 1: even in Brooklyn, he was the one thing I liked
Speaker 1: about it. He was the one thing I mean in Arizona,
Speaker 1: in Phoenix, it was Bradley Beale that drove us nuts.
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant was giving me twenty six and twenty seven.
Speaker 1: I'm not disappointed with him. I've been disappointed with you know,
Speaker 1: his like team selection, but I just kind of feel
Speaker 1: like he's water, Like he just he just kind of
Speaker 1: floats and finds his level and I think he'll fit anywhere.
Speaker 1: And I also think you got really smart between Chris
Speaker 1: Paul and de Aaron Fox. You know, you have good
Speaker 1: guiters on that team, like really smart guys, and.
Speaker 3: You can be a.
Speaker 1: Really flawed team if you're intelligent. We've talked about the
Speaker 1: Miami Heat like one of the smartest teams in league history.
Speaker 1: It's like Alan Lebron Way Bosh Battier Haslam, It's like
Speaker 1: she's high functioning. They didn't have a center. Chalmers drove
Speaker 1: everybody crazy. Wade and Lebron kind of had duplicate games,
Speaker 1: and you're like, yeah, they got the four straight finals,
Speaker 1: like they just figured shit out right.
Speaker 3: And I kind of feel like.
Speaker 1: If you put Wemby and and and it's Fox and
Speaker 1: it's you have to move off. I think Harrison Barnes
Speaker 1: we talked about before. I think it was the but
Speaker 1: I mean, I just think Kad would work. I think
Speaker 1: it would just work.
Speaker 3: I think it. I think Houston needs him more.
Speaker 1: But I mean I think he looks at Houston and thinks,
Speaker 1: all right, like like sanm Goon, Yeah, i'man Thompson is
Speaker 1: he a great offensive player, yet he's more of an
Speaker 1: athlete defensive player.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think Katie's smart and looks at it and just thinks, man,
Speaker 1: I could have bad shooting nights and we could score
Speaker 1: one twenty eight in San Antonio. Like I think that's
Speaker 1: how he looks at it. Maybe I'm wrong, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to be clear.
Speaker 2: Just because I say it's not my favorite fit doesn't
Speaker 2: mean it can't work. Like I'm a big believer in
Speaker 2: don't overthink things, like don't overthink Kevin Durant next to
Speaker 2: Victor wibin Yama and Darren Fox, like they're gonna score
Speaker 2: a lot of points and they're gonna be able to,
Speaker 2: uh to get a certain number of stops. There's I
Speaker 2: there is you were just talking about with Desmond Baane.
Speaker 2: There's a reason Desmond Baynes shooting is so incredibly valuable
Speaker 2: in the Orlando context on a team that not only
Speaker 2: doesn't have a guy who can make jump shots, but
Speaker 2: doesn't have a guy who can make jump shots off
Speaker 2: the move. So it's uniquely super valuable to that team.
Speaker 2: KD anchored by the physicality of Houston. I like the
Speaker 2: kind of like force multiplier effect he could have there.
Speaker 2: That said, even in the context of San Antonio, he's
Speaker 2: obviously a massive upgrade. He's obviously gonna make them way better.
Speaker 2: There's even like some interesting stuff you could look at
Speaker 2: in the big picture. KD is like probably the best
Speaker 2: shooting workout guy in the league, to pair Victor Webinyama with.
Speaker 2: He's legendary for the quality of his shooting workouts, him
Speaker 2: going game speed, him working on shots that are specifically
Speaker 2: available in NBA games off of certain actions. KD is
Speaker 2: like a legend in his workouts off the floor. Wenby's
Speaker 2: going to be doing all those workouts with him, you
Speaker 2: know he is, and it would lead to a certain
Speaker 2: development terms of Wemby's big picture health. But it looks
Speaker 2: to me more like less of a in immediate contender
Speaker 2: juggernaut and more of like kind of a fun place
Speaker 2: for Katie to end his career where he can get
Speaker 2: right in hand in Wemby.
Speaker 1: You know That's what I think. I think Katy looks
Speaker 1: at it and thinks this would be fun. Is that
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be I wouldn't have to drop twenty eight points,
Speaker 1: would come easy. And I think Katie looks at it
Speaker 1: and thinks, Okay, dearon Fox, you know, wemby the structure
Speaker 1: of the organization, they draft smart players. They don't draft
Speaker 1: a lot of ego, they don't draft a lot of dummies.
Speaker 3: I think Katie looks.
Speaker 1: At himself and thinks, Okay, Houston's got this. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of stuff in Houston that I'm not sure it's
Speaker 1: ever going to be great in the playoffs. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of hyper athleticism and length and running and I
Speaker 1: and I and that's fun. But I think I don't
Speaker 1: think at this point he wants to be a mentor,
Speaker 1: right like I think he wants to go I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go have some fun and play with really smart players,
Speaker 1: highly functional players, and all put the pressure on me
Speaker 1: to figure out where I fit, you know, like they
Speaker 1: don't need him. I think Houston needs him. I think
Speaker 1: the Knicks could really use him. So I think, you know,
Speaker 1: I think for KD, it is I think it's perfect.
Speaker 1: That would be fun. It would be fun for him,
Speaker 1: and I think it would be fun for us.
Speaker 2: It falls in line with the same ideology that led
Speaker 2: him to Golden State. You know, like, to your point,
Speaker 2: KD could win a title in Houston, but it would
Speaker 2: be a chore and offense would come very difficult. He'd
Speaker 2: be facing crazy looks. Now, the flip side of that
Speaker 2: is he wouldn't have to be the same statistical monster
Speaker 2: in Houston that he would be in other situations because
Speaker 2: Houston's defense is so good that he would just need
Speaker 2: to basically lift them over the top on the offensive
Speaker 2: end of the floor. But there is something to be
Speaker 2: said about basketball is more fun when the ball's moving
Speaker 2: around and you're playing with more offensive skill and when
Speaker 2: you like kd If there's one weakness at this point
Speaker 2: in his career, he doesn't pressure the rim a ton
Speaker 2: well dearon Fox, sure as hell does. So like he's
Speaker 2: gonna get to playoff of those advantages and play off
Speaker 2: the ball like there is a Katie has told us
Speaker 2: to our faces exactly who he is for years. He
Speaker 2: loves basketball and he wants to play a fun brand
Speaker 2: of basketball. And so even if we look on it
Speaker 2: and add it on paper and go, oh, Houston, big, strong,
Speaker 2: physical team, they can anchor him with defense. Emy Udoka
Speaker 2: is not the best offensive coach in the world. That
Speaker 2: team doesn't have a lot of offensive talent. It would be
Speaker 2: a lot like Oklahoma City in twenty sixteen, And I'm
Speaker 2: thinking he looks at that and goes, I'd rather play fun,
Speaker 2: free flowing basketball with some more talented offensive players. And
Speaker 2: so with that being the case, I mean San Antonio
Speaker 2: is going to be a really interesting team if they
Speaker 2: pulled something like this off. All of a sudden, a
Speaker 2: guy like Jeremy Sohan becomes super important because he'd have
Speaker 2: to be such a defensive anchor for them in terms
Speaker 2: of size and strength. Stefan Cassel obviously defensively as a guard,
Speaker 2: would have to do a lot of that work. Again,
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that I would view that Spurs team
Speaker 2: is exceptionally dangerous, But what a fun way for Wemby
Speaker 2: to start his career and what a fun way for
Speaker 2: Katie to end his career.
Speaker 1: Well, I think also Katie looks at Lebron and thinks
Speaker 1: Lebron's always figured it out is Lebron doesn't.
Speaker 3: Want to do a lot of the dirty work.
Speaker 1: Like if he went to Houston, Katie'd have to do
Speaker 1: some of the dirty work. He'd be like, he'd be
Speaker 1: like Steph in Golden State, where it's like, oh, Steph
Speaker 1: plays poorly.
Speaker 3: That's the narrative when they lose.
Speaker 1: It's not Jimmy Butler, it's Steph In Houston, very quickly
Speaker 1: he would be because because Jalen Green's a hot and
Speaker 1: cold shooter, and very quickly if Houston loses, it's like, well, Katie,
Speaker 1: you know, an off shooting night.
Speaker 2: We traded for him. He was supposed to save us
Speaker 2: from this.
Speaker 1: That's right, and it's just not the case in San Antonio.
Speaker 1: He'll be part. And I do think as players get older,
Speaker 1: they're looking for fit, and you know it's it's and
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. I think as I've aged, I've
Speaker 1: always liked fit. It's just fun to be part of
Speaker 1: a group, a mix of young and old.
Speaker 3: But you don't want to be a mentor, like I
Speaker 3: just don't think Katie.
Speaker 1: At this point, I think fun is a really interesting
Speaker 1: word because Kyrie is fun to play with. That's why
Speaker 1: he went there and Golden State no longer because of relationships.
Speaker 1: Wasn't he wasn't having a good time.
Speaker 3: He was winning, and so yeah, I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1: He's had an all time career. He's a different cat.
Speaker 1: But you know, I've come to terms with not everybody
Speaker 1: is the same. I really do think though, what you're
Speaker 1: seeing right now in the NBA, I really like, and
Speaker 1: I know we don't have a super team, but it's
Speaker 1: becoming like the NFL. It's a very GM driven league.
Speaker 1: Like the smart gms are going to win. A lot
Speaker 1: of them are in the West, and they have been
Speaker 1: for thirty years. That's why the West is overwhelmingly top
Speaker 1: to bottom, always deeper than the East.
Speaker 3: You just have more good owners and more good gms.
Speaker 1: And the other thing is, I think what we've really
Speaker 1: seen this there's a lot of maturity in the league
Speaker 1: right now. Like Indiana and Oklahoma City. I mean, these
Speaker 1: are grinding outfits. I mean I think Indiana plays pretty
Speaker 1: good defense. I mean again, juxtaposition with Oka se juxtaposed
Speaker 1: to that, well, it doesn't look the same. But there
Speaker 1: was there was a in the second quarter in this game.
Speaker 1: I was like, God, India has given them problems. So
Speaker 1: I just I think the league right now it went
Speaker 1: through a cycle where it felt kind of you had
Speaker 1: old stars and two young guys like you know, and
Speaker 1: you had these Jaws and these zions.
Speaker 3: It's like they're just not ready.
Speaker 1: I just feel like we've got this group of Halliburton
Speaker 1: and SGA and Jalen Williams and and it's just like
Speaker 1: really good Tatum, really good young players totally dedicated to
Speaker 1: the league, and fewer and fewer old guys are relevant.
Speaker 1: And I think it's I don't It may not get ratings,
Speaker 1: but I I'm I really like okay see in Indiana,
Speaker 1: Like I really respect top to bottom both organizations.
Speaker 2: The point about maturity is is a good one because
Speaker 2: these two teams are relatively young, and young teams young
Speaker 2: young NBA teams famously don't play defense because young guys
Speaker 2: in general, it takes time for them to learn how
Speaker 2: to prioritize how they spend their energy. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: you know, I'm I'm I'm generally pretty happy with the
Speaker 2: trajectory of the NBA. Every era in the NBA has
Speaker 2: some stars that are a little bit more boring, you know,
Speaker 2: like for instance, to meet Shake Shae's like the guard
Speaker 2: version of Tim Duncan. He's not the most exciting player
Speaker 2: in the world for me to watch, but he's incredibly
Speaker 2: dominant at his position. But we do have musty television,
Speaker 2: like I think Wemby is mussy television. I think Anthony
Speaker 2: Edwards is musty television. There are certain guys in this
Speaker 2: league that bring the pop, and so we just need
Speaker 2: to take some time over the next couple of years
Speaker 2: for the public to kind of ingratiate themselves with these guys.
Speaker 2: And I'm still a big believer in the NBA. There's
Speaker 2: stuff they need to clean up, there's certain things that
Speaker 2: can get better. It's not perfect. I wish they'd shortened
Speaker 2: the season a little bit, but like this has been
Speaker 2: a fun playoff front, Colin, I've really really enjoyed it,
Speaker 2: and the Pacers have like reinvigorated my love of basketball
Speaker 2: in a real way just because of the just the super,
Speaker 2: super fun brand of basketball that they've play. I've really
Speaker 2: really enjoyed it. But Colin, we really appreciate you giving
Speaker 2: us your time tonight. Man, you met For all of
Speaker 2: you guys that are hanging out on the YouTube tream,
Speaker 2: we are headed over to play back when we're done,
Speaker 2: so playback dot tv slash Hoops tonight. We'll take some
Speaker 2: callers and watch some film.
Speaker 3: Colin.
Speaker 2: Was good to see you, buddy, and we'll see you
Speaker 2: next time. What's so, guys, As always, I appreciate you
Speaker 2: for listening to and supporting Oops tonight. They would actually
Speaker 2: be really helpful for us if you guys would take
Speaker 2: a second and leave a rating and a review. As always,
Speaker 2: I appreciate you guys supporting us, but if you could
Speaker 2: take a minute to do that, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: The volume