1 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Well, hello everybody. It is me Rosie O'Donnell, Star of 2 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Wide Awake, which is a film you probably never saw 3 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,600 Speaker 1: that I was in playing a nun, but people were 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: sick of me saying Star the Flintstones. But frankly it 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: rolls off my tongue in a way that I enjoy. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: How are you. I'm doing good. You're getting ready for 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: your big Fourth of July extravaganza, having a few people 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: over here, little pool party. It's going to be fun. 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: I had a wonderful time last night. I took my 10 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: daughter Vivian, and my son Blakey and his fiance Teresa, 11 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: and Vivi's friend Erica to see Logic Bobby Hall, who 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: is one of the greatest rappers in the world, and 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: you all probably know who he is. He did an 14 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 1: episode of the podcast and I just fell in love 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: with the guy. He is so wonderfully optimistic. He's full 16 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: of positivity, he's full of patience, he's full of pathos 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: and just perfection, you know. And I got to tell 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: you he did something that made me cry last night. 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: He was introducing people who were in the audience and 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: who had really inspired him in his work and his life. 21 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: As a creative performer. And then he said, you know 22 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: who's here, Rosie O'Donnell, And he told the whole story 23 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: about how we met at NOBU and the whole synchronicity 24 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: of us sort of getting into each other's lives, and 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: he was so lovely and made me stand up and 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: the crowd all clapped and he was like, what she's 27 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: done as a gay woman at a time when it 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: wasn't easy, And I just love that guy, I gotta 29 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: tell you. I started to cry, you know, And then 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: walking out, everyone's like, Rosie, hey, Rosie, love you man. 31 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: Thanks what you do hey, Rosie? 32 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: You know. 33 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: So it was a lovely not just because of that, 34 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: but boy was that the icing on a very delicious cake. 35 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: I loved every minute of it to listen Today's guest, 36 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: and today's show is a little different than what we 37 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: normally do. There's a couple of issues we talk about 38 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: with my guest about self abuse, self harm, about drug addiction, 39 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: and about her life in prison. And it's just an 40 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: emotional trigger warning for people if you have issues with 41 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. I want to give you a 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: heads up. Pretty amazing guest that I have today and 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: her name is Reality Winner. First of all, isn't that 44 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: name something? I mean? Reality Winner is her actual name, 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: And it was years ago when she got arrested and 46 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: I saw the charges and what they were trying to 47 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: do to her as a result of being a whistleblower. 48 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 1: Reality Winner was a high ranking member of the Air 49 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: Force assigned to the drone program. She intercepted foreign chatter 50 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: to provide US forces with intelligence. She was awarded the 51 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: Air Force Commendation Medal for aiding and six hundred and 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: fifty enemy captures and identifying nine hundred high value targets. 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: She left the Air Force and became an NSSA translator 54 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: and then a top security Clearance military contractor, during which 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: time Reality downloaded an article from the NSSAY that talked 56 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: about how the Russians fished many registered electors through email 57 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: and interfered with the twenty sixteen elections. There was strong 58 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: evidence that Russian hackers had manipulated and influenced voters through 59 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: well planned strategies and experimental software techniques, but she realized 60 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: that none of this was available to the public domain. 61 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: No one knew. She said she felt a responsibility as 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: a citizen that it was her duty to leak the 63 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: document in good faith. She downloaded the article, she printed it, 64 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: folded it in half, put it in her paneos, and 65 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: took it out of the building undetected. She sent the 66 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: article by mail anonymously to the Intercept. They sent copies 67 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: of the documents to the NSA to confirm their accuracy, 68 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: and the NSA notified the FBI. The FBI obtained a 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: warrant to search winners electronic devices and home, and she 70 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: was eventually arrested. She was charged with one act under 71 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: the hardly used Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen, and she 72 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: pled not guilty. Blocked from being allowed to use bail twice, 73 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: Winner asked the court to allow her to change or 74 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: plead it guilty because as she tried to defend herself, 75 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: they kept adding time to her jail sentence. Winner then 76 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: pleaded guilty to one count of felony transmission of national 77 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: defense information under the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen as 78 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: she sat in jail. A larger conversation surrounding Russian interference 79 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: in the twenty sixteen elections, allegations of collusion between the 80 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: Trump campaign and Russia, and the role of whistleblowers in 81 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: American society was started, mostly went unreported, and now here 82 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: we are July twenty twenty three, and the ongoing investigation 83 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: into Trump's alleged misuse of classified documents. He's been charged 84 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: with thirty seven charges, specifically thirty one violations of the 85 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen, the very same law that 86 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: Trump and AG Jeff Sessions used to charge Reality Winner 87 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: and make an example out of her, to jail her 88 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: for nearly five years, the longest time anyone ever spent 89 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: in jail charged with that crime, and he is now 90 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: charged with thirty something counts of that exact crime. I 91 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: think it's karma. I really do. I believe in Reality Winner. 92 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: I've known her for four years now. We kept in 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: touch through her mom and through letters and texts and emails, 94 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: and I think she's a national hero. And what she 95 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: did was vitally important. At a time when the American 96 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: news media did not feel any allegiance to the truth. 97 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: She stood up and said, well, here's the truth, and 98 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: here's the facts, and here's the proof, and good for her, 99 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: here she is Reality Winner. Well, hello, Reality Winner, Hi Rosie. 100 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: I'm so happy to talk to you. I'm so happy 101 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: to see you. I'm so happy to see you are 102 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: out of prison and you look well. 103 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: I'm just happy to be here. I'm happy for your support, 104 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: and I just I'm so grateful for you. First of all, 105 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: if I could just interrupt and say that, like when 106 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: you came out of the woodworks and express support to 107 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: my mother, Yes, I can't even describe the amount of 108 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: hope that you gave her in those moments when I 109 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: was in jail, and I just, I mean, that's everything 110 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: to me. People who are there for my mom when 111 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 2: I can't be. 112 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: I can understand. Well, it was interesting. I had heard 113 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: the story on the news, and I went and googled it, 114 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: and it was like, is this her real name? Reality winner? 115 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: And to go up against the Trump administration who was 116 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: a reality host. Like I just thought, oh my god, 117 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: this is like epic and Shakespearean and this isn't an accident. 118 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: Pay attention, you know. And I called your mom and 119 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: she was so lovely and so obviously concerned and worried. 120 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: I think that was before she moved down to where 121 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: you were in prison, right. 122 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was at the beginning when we were 123 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: just trying to figure, what do you do when you're 124 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 2: in the system. 125 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: Yes, so Reality Winner, for those of you who don't know, 126 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: is an American hero. She worked for the government. She 127 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: was in the Air Force, and she did translations of 128 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: Arabic languages. 129 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: Correct, they're written in the Arabic alphabet, but they're Farce 130 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: Dory and Pashto. 131 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: And how did you learn those three languages? They don't 132 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: seem so easy. 133 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: They kind of beat them into you. In the military. 134 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: You go to the Defense Language Institute, which is like 135 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: the Hogwarts for languages. 136 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: Wow. Did you have a natural talent for foreign languages 137 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: when you were a kid or was this something that 138 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: you wanted to do to sort of help the country 139 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: prevent terrorist attacks. 140 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: I think it's a little bit of both. I really 141 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: wanted it so badly when I was a kid. I 142 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: used to trace the Arabic alphabet to show my dad, 143 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: and I would draw maps of Afghanistan. He was like 144 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: everybody else, just trying to figure out what exactly happened 145 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: on nine to eleven. And in high school, I remember 146 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: taking Latin and just being obsessed with it as like 147 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 2: a groundwork for how to learn other languages because it's so. 148 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: Structured yeah, and you were obviously quite good at it, 149 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: I hope. So, yeah, Well you got lots of accommodations 150 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: while you were serving in the Air Force. What was 151 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: the big medal that they show in the dock that 152 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: I saw that you got a medal for outstanding performance 153 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: or something similar? 154 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: Right? And I guess at one time I was the 155 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: only person pretty much in the Air Force that had 156 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: perfect scores in three separate languages. 157 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: Wow, that's pretty big. Did you always want to serve 158 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: for your country? Did? How old were you when you 159 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: decided to go into the Air Force? 160 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: Well, I was seventeen when I walked into the Army 161 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: recruiter's office and my parents had to stage an entire intervention. 162 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: They threatened to call my stepbrother who was in the 163 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: Air Force, and they said, you know, sweetie, like you're 164 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: too smart for this. You need to go into the 165 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: Air Force. And the Air Force's attitude was kind of 166 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: like in Ivy League college, like we'll talk to you 167 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: once you've met the requirement. And I didn't really appreciate that. 168 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: When I was seventeen, I wanted just to be taken in, 169 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: but I had always wanted to be involved in the 170 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: international geopolitical atmosphere that had basically become the world after 171 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: nine to eleven. Yes, it was like the only thing 172 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: I had as a child to keep my dad's attention. 173 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: You know, he was a psychologist and a theologist. So 174 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 2: what happened that day was became his next obsession of 175 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: how you can use a faith in such a toxic way? Right? Right? 176 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: How old were you in back then nine to eleven? 177 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: I was almost I was almost ten years old. Yeah, 178 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: I was nine. 179 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it totally colored your whole childhood and possibly 180 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: your desire to go in and help this specific area 181 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: in chaos, right, and. 182 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: Especially I think that as a young girl growing up 183 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: in South Texas, our views of the war in Iraq 184 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 2: and afghanis to stand. There really weren't a lot of 185 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: question marks. You know. There's so many people that ask me, really, 186 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: you you wanted to help people, why would you join 187 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: the military? And for me, that was the quickest way 188 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 2: to get to a job where you're helping people. 189 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: Right, And did you think about going to college as well? 190 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: Or you thought you would just join right then? Out 191 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: of high school? 192 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: I actually was pretty much set up to go to 193 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: college for mechanical engineering and My thought was to be 194 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 2: like a big successful aircraft mechanic, so that I would 195 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: make enough money to learn these languages, to be a 196 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: philanthropist and do everything in support of this country and 197 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: counter terrorism and humanitarian aid. But after like ten years 198 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 2: of you know, college and work instead of doing it 199 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: right off the bat, just with a service uniform on. 200 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: Right, So it was a quicker route to get to 201 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: ways you wanted to. 202 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: Yes, my step brother Cole was a linguist in the 203 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 2: Air Force, and so that's how I knew that there 204 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 2: was a language school in the United States that could 205 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: get you fluent in any language in the world within 206 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 2: a year. And once I found that out, I pretty much, 207 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: you know, whatever it took, I was going to get there. 208 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: We'll be back right after this more with Reality Winner, 209 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: don't go away. Now. You worked listening in to conversations 210 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: of people in Iraq and Afghanistan and then reporting what 211 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: you heard, and then as a result, there would be 212 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: drone strikes from some of your things that you learned 213 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: from listening in and from translating correct. 214 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: I'm not allowed to get that specific, but generally that 215 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 2: is how the war in Afghanistan was carried out. 216 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Okay, And eventually the statistics and all of the facts 217 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,839 Speaker 1: that you knew about what was happening with this particular 218 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: line of work and line of defense that the United 219 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: States government was using resulted in a lot of casualties 220 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: that were not necessarily the targets, and that weighed on 221 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: you very heavily. Tell me if you can't say it 222 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 1: reality and we'll skip, because I'm not trying to get 223 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: you in trouble. I'm trying to understand your mental state. 224 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: When you decided I can't do this anymore, I might 225 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: want to switch over to something else. 226 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: Right, I realized that what we were doing was the 227 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: greatest recruitment tool for insurgent groups like the Taliban, ISIS 228 00:13:59,160 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: and al Qaida. 229 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: Right, So it didn't it didn't sit well in your soul. 230 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: No, it didn't feel good that I was becoming part 231 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 2: of the problem that I made it my life's mission 232 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: to solve. 233 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: So you made a switch at that time after ten 234 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: years in the Air Force. 235 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: So I did six years in the Air Force, and 236 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: I realized about a month before my separation that none 237 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: of my language training and experience meant anything to like 238 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: the un human refugees Council unis usaid I wasn't even 239 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: qualified to pass out blankets at a refugee camp. You 240 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: needed at least a master's degree, and you had to 241 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: be self sufficient and have enough money saved up to 242 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 2: live by yourself in country for a year doing unpaid labor. 243 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: I realized the ugly side of humanitarian aid is that 244 00:14:55,320 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: it's very much paid a play and nothing I had 245 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: was good enough to even apply. 246 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: Wow. 247 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: So I said, I'm not going to go to college 248 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: for four or five years. I'm going to stay working 249 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: and I'm going to get a year of in country 250 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: work expertise with a defense contract. So I started just 251 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: taking any defense contract as a way of jumping from 252 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: contract to contract, keeping a top secret clearance to get 253 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: a deployment to Afghanistan for one year. So I could 254 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: then take that to the UN or any other refugee 255 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: agency and say I worked as an interpreter in Afghanistan 256 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: for a year. May I work for you to help 257 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: refugees find their family members. 258 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: Right? 259 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: So that is how I wound up at NSA Georgia. 260 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: Got it so you didn't get to go in country 261 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: for a year, right, I did not. 262 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 2: I hadn't quite gotten that far before committing a felony 263 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 2: because I was just so dissatisfied with the state of Mali, 264 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: the country in general, but just my life, you know 265 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: it just being at that transition stage and having come 266 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: so far and not being any closer to the humanitarian 267 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: aid career I thought I would have by twenty five, Right, 268 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: It just really led me down a dark path in 269 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: my life. 270 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: Right. And you suffered with depression while you were in 271 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: the Air Force, and anxiety, and you had an eating disorder, 272 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: right all starting way back then or did only start 273 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: after you you got the new job in Georgia. 274 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, the eating disorder had pretty much always been there 275 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: since childhood, right, and it's been I mean, there's years 276 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: of my Air Force service that I don't remember except 277 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: for what I did to avoid binging and purging. 278 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: Yes, I understand. 279 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: I don't remember anything from the year twenty fourteen, except 280 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: I can't anything other than alvocado on wheatbread. I think 281 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: I ate that for a year straight, right, Like in 282 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: other words, I was pretty much ready for prison, right. 283 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you were the same. You were kind of getting 284 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: up up there, getting your your taste. Bud's ready at 285 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: least so you go to work exactly, you go to 286 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: work in Georgia, and it's at the time when there's 287 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: a lot of concern in the United States that Russia 288 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: has interfered in our elections. And the president at the 289 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: time was telling, no, that's never happened. I don't have 290 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: anything to do with Russia. They did not at all 291 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,879 Speaker 1: help me win. They didn't help anything. And there you are, 292 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: with your top secret clearance looking at all of these 293 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: forms and of information and top secret material, and something 294 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: comes across your desks that confirms Russia's involvement in the election. 295 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: I can't confirm any of that, but what I can 296 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: say is that there was a game going on in 297 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, and the you know, the punching bag of 298 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: the whole situation were United States institutions. It was the NSA. 299 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: And what I didn't hear was my agency speaking for itself. Right, 300 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: So I jumped rink and I tried to speak for 301 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: my entire agency, and in doing so, I committed a felony. 302 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: Yes, and the felony was printing out one article, yes, 303 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: one article, and when the publisher of the person you 304 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: sent it to the intercept right, when when they I 305 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: don't know if you can confirm that either. I don't 306 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: know what I'm allowed to say. Please stop me reality, 307 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: because I don't want to get you in trouble. Right, 308 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: So you send this away and a few weeks later 309 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: it's published, and then you're at your house coming home 310 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: from the grocery store and there's somebody at your house 311 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: where your dogs and your cat and your life. 312 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: Is it actually and you even believe it gets uglier 313 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 2: than that? 314 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: Please? 315 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: So the intercept, the intercept saw it said, you know, 316 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: we're going to send it straight back to the NSA 317 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 2: to confirm that it's real, and in doing so leads 318 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 2: the FBI directly to my footsteps and waits until it's 319 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 2: confirmed that I'm in custody to then publish the document 320 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: one hour before the Department of Justice makes a public 321 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: announcement of my arrest. 322 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: Wow. 323 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 2: Yes, so they held onto it, and so you tell 324 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 2: me if they knew if I was in custody yet 325 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 2: or not. But they had that document for two and 326 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: a half, almost three weeks, and they just happened to 327 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 2: publish it Monday morning. I think it was like fifty 328 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: three minutes before the district attorney for the Southern District 329 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 2: of Georgia announced my arrest. 330 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: And we have all seen with the new wonderful reenactment 331 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: of the actual interrogation that was recorded by the FBI. 332 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: We saw that in Is This a Room? The play 333 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: that I went to see about it on Broadway Off Broadway, 334 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: which was astounding and amazing, and then this sort of 335 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: take off on that the whole interrogation of what went 336 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: down in real time, of how long it took in 337 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: a live show. It was absolutely riveting. And it's on 338 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 1: now as well. What network is that on? Do you 339 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: remember HBO? 340 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 2: Max? 341 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: Yes? Okay, so let's gauge this your anxiety. When they're 342 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: all talking to you, they're asking questions, they're saying did 343 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: you take anything out? They're being kind of weird around you, 344 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: I would say, and you are spinning your wheels trying 345 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: to think what do I do? Did you at any 346 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: time think I should call my lawyer? 347 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lawyer. I did not know which 348 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 2: law I had broken yet. I might be the dumbest 349 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 2: person ever, but I guess when it comes to this 350 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: sort of crime, it was such a stigma, the look 351 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 2: a snowed in or manning or to understand their actual 352 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: legal proceedings against them. Yes, so I knew I had 353 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 2: done something really terribly against the rules, probably against the laws. 354 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: I did not know that it was actually under the 355 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: Espionage Act in nineteen. 356 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: Seventeen, which no case had been tried under that Act 357 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: for a very long time. Is that true? 358 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: There have been several in the past twenty years, and 359 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: then they tried to do that to Daniel Ellsberg. But 360 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: it's very rarely used, but when it is, there is 361 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: almost zero legal defense against it. 362 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: A question that a lot of people have from watching 363 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: the doc infote sort of what would we call it. 364 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: It's not really a doc. It's acted out, but it's 365 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 1: the performed interrogation of you, and it's fascinating, absolutely compelling 366 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: to watch, and that you were never given your miranda 367 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: rights or told you were under arrest right. 368 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 2: Exactly several times outside of the recording, I had asked 369 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: if I was under arrest, they said, we don't know yet. 370 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: I had seen communications with those agents from the night 371 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: before Friday night. They were supposed to go and immediately 372 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: arrest me and then search my house. On Saturday morning, 373 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 2: they had called off the arrest, but they said, you know, 374 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: perform the warrant for me. The only thing I knew 375 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: was that when Chelsea Manning was taken, she was disappeared 376 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: for seven months in solitary confinement on a Marine Corps 377 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: base up by DC. So when they wouldn't tell me 378 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 2: if I was under a rest orant, when they weren't 379 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 2: making it sound like this was a interaction with law enforcement, 380 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: when they did not act like police officers, I thought 381 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: there was going to be some extra judicial bullshit going on. 382 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 2: I knew I was going to disappear that night if 383 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 2: I survived, because they weren't acting like police officers and 384 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: they didn't say jail. It wasn't until the female police 385 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 2: officer showed up and said, Hi, I'm going to be 386 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: the one taking you to jail tonight. That was the 387 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: closest time somebody had said Reality Winner, you are under arrest. 388 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 2: When agent Garrick, the one in the film said you're 389 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 2: under arrest, he didn't say that. He said, yeah, we're 390 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: going to have to take you in. It's going to 391 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: be a bit of a drive, Like what the fuck 392 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: does that mean? 393 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: Yeah? 394 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: And legally what does that mean? 395 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 1: Correct? And you probably were thinking, you know, they're going 396 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: to take me somewhere and maybe not going to be 397 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: seen again. 398 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 2: I mean, when you're in my line of work and 399 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: you understand black sites, and you understand that once you're 400 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: on that side of the law, you know it's not 401 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: a uniform police, it is the FBI. They can take 402 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 2: you anywhere, you don't have to under arrest. And apparently, 403 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 2: and one of the things that it's so weird in 404 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: this film is at any point in time, according to 405 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,160 Speaker 2: those FBI agents and according to the court, that girl 406 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: in the film is free to walk away at any time, 407 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 2: even though they parked her core in, even though her 408 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: car keys and her wallet are inside the house wile 409 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: a warrant is being executed, she is free to say, 410 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 2: excuse me, go grab her keys in her wallet, somehow 411 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: drive away and not be followed. That is their legal 412 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 2: justification for not reading me. 413 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: My Randa rites, well, that is absolutely absurd. As you 414 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: can see from the film and also from the play. 415 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: If you read the actual interrogation, you were completely trapped 416 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: and they were kind of cat and mousing you, it 417 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: seemed right, with ridiculously sexist questions like you know, where's 418 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: your gun? Is it pink? Like? What was that about 419 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean, Like, as I'm watching this, 420 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what third question to ask somebody who has 421 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: been in the military and has obviously the wherewithal an 422 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: ability to use these weapons, And you know, I just 423 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: felt like it was so kind of infantalizing or misogynistic. 424 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: I set myself up for that one though, because my 425 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: gun was pink. 426 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: Right, But that's okay. I don't care what color it is, 427 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: you know. 428 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: I mean, you know which gun were they talking about? 429 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: My shotgun wasn't pink, My glock wasn't pink. But yeah, 430 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: I mean the way the certain questions being tagged on 431 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 2: at the end of everything, I mean, it's certainly not 432 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: an orthodox you know situations. It was very strange. 433 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: It was hinky, as they say in police work. It 434 00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: was hinky. We'll be right back after this with more 435 00:25:43,800 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: with reality winner Where were you taken that night? And 436 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: did you get to call your mother? And when I did. 437 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 2: So, thankfully, when I was rescued by the police and 438 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 2: taken to a regular jail where my whereabouts were documented, 439 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: I made a collect call. I tried to call my 440 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: sister first, and she didn't answer, so I called my 441 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: mother and I It's so weird because I was able 442 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: to call her once and then what happens to people 443 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: when we incarcerate them. It was a Saturday night, and 444 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 2: they told me that they don't give out individual personal 445 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 2: phone pin numbers except for Tuesdays. 446 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: Wow. 447 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 2: So I got my free phone call and was told 448 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: to go back to the cell block with the other 449 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: women and good luck. 450 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 1: These were the women charged with a variety of crimes, 451 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: none having to do with national security. You're the only 452 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: one there, like you, okay, yeah, and you're terrified. You've 453 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: never been in the situation before. You don't, really, this 454 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: is not something that you ever thought would happen to 455 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: you in your life, correct, right? 456 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's not something i'd ever prepared myself for. 457 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: I think I was more prepared for the solitary kind 458 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: affinement at Quantico than I was to be with normal 459 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: American citizens in a county jail. 460 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: So what did your mother say? What was her reaction? 461 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: Were you able to in that short phone call tell 462 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: her the gist of it? Did she understand? 463 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: Yes? Actually, it was the second time on record that 464 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: I confess to my felony. Because I am not the mastermind. 465 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,239 Speaker 2: They thought I was right, and I needed her to 466 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: understand kind of what I did. You know what I mean, like, 467 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: what do you do when you're in jail, Like, Mom, 468 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm in jail. Don't worry. I didn't kill nobody, right, 469 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: you know. And I just really thought that this would 470 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 2: be I thought I would have a legal chance. I 471 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: thought I would get out on bail. I thought I 472 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 2: would have a chance to find an attorney. I thought 473 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: this would be a misunderstanding that might end my career, 474 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: but not possibly my entire life. Right by that Thursday, 475 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 2: we realized exactly what we were up against. 476 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: And terror filled you. Yes, you were sentenced to prison 477 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: for releasing a piece of paper or three that told 478 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: the truth about Russia's interference in our elections. And Donald 479 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: Trump did not want that anywhere out in the public, 480 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: and Jeff Sessions, his ag threw the book at you. 481 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: You were serving more time, and you had a longer 482 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: sentence than people who had broken that law and done 483 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: so much more damage to the country and whatnot, and 484 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: they were given less time. You were made an example 485 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 1: of right. 486 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: And I was the only person in history ever denied 487 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: bail for this act, the only other person and kept 488 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: in custody was an actual Cuban spy. Ana Montes. 489 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: Now, when they said you're sentenced to five years, did 490 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: you think you would be doing all five years? 491 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely? I was ready to plead guilty on day one, 492 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 2: having already confessed. I did not hide behind what I 493 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: had done. It was after a few months of realizing that. 494 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: So if you kill somebody, you get the option to 495 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: say I didn't mean to, it was an accident, or 496 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: I was under the influence of something or self defense, right, 497 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 2: and then it gets what downgrade it to manslaughter or 498 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: anything else. When it comes to the Espiono Jack in 499 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, you did the thing or you didn't. It 500 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: is the only law in the United States law where 501 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 2: your criminal men's raya or your criminal intent does not matter. 502 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: The actual harm done to national security does not matter. 503 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 2: And I was not indicted for releasing classified information. I 504 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: was indicted for releasing national defense information. This law is 505 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 2: one hundred and five years old. Today there is no 506 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 2: legal definition of what national defense information even is. When 507 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: the law was written, it meant locations of submarines and 508 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: troop movements, as well as attack plans. It was a 509 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: World War One law and since then, they've intentionally left 510 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 2: it vague, so we could mean anything. Once a district 511 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: attorney and a grand jury has made the decision that 512 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: what has been willfully retained and then disseminated is national 513 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: defense information, a defendant no longer has the right to 514 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: even question if what they leaked or had or passed 515 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: on or retained even is national defense information. The government 516 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 2: does not have to prove that damage was done. It's 517 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: if you did it, you're facing ten years, and if 518 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 2: you didn't, you need to prove that you did it. 519 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: It's one of the few laws where the burden of 520 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: proof actually lies in the defendant and not the prosecution. 521 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: Wow, did you have anybody like the ACLU or some 522 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 1: pro bono lawyer fighting for truth and journalism and you 523 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: know it's whistleblower stuff. Did you think, well, maybe this 524 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: is a whistleblower thing, Maybe I could use that defense. 525 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: But you weren't even really given a chance to have 526 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: a defense because of the archaic nature of the law. 527 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: Exactly, and even from the get go, my public defenders 528 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 2: were taken away from me because I was twenty five 529 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: years old and I had thirty thousand dollars in savings, 530 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: from the Air Force, so obviously I could get a 531 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: top notch legal defense going after a couple months. The 532 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: Intercept was underneath a media corporation who reached out to 533 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 2: the Freedom of the Press Foundation, who then decided that 534 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: they would take on my case pro bono. However, at 535 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: every time I was reminded by those attorneys that the 536 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: Freedom of the Press was hired by the Intercept to 537 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: pay for my legal defense. So at no time was 538 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: I the client. Was my defense the most important thing? 539 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 2: It was keeping the Intercept out of court. 540 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: Well, that's duplicitus. That's very duplicitous, isn't it, That they're 541 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: not really representing you at all? 542 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: Right, And I had my I actually retained my public defenders. 543 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 2: They said, we're here for you. We will stay on 544 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: for free. And they were the ones that explained that 545 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: all of that to me. They said, go with these people. 546 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: They have an entire law firm. I mean I'd had 547 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 2: like nine different attorneys from them. They said, they're the 548 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: only chance you have at having just the manpower to 549 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: fight this at all if you want a fighting chance, 550 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: or if you want a good plea deal. But we 551 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 2: need you to know that they're protecting the person paying 552 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: the bill right, and you're not paying the bill right. 553 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: Wow. 554 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 2: So it's never a pretty picture. But I was also 555 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 2: I was very privileged, very fortunate, and those attorneys are 556 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: some of the most I mean, the integrity that they had, 557 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: the compassion that they had. I'm still in touch with 558 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 2: them today. Joe Whitley is just one of the finest 559 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: humans I've ever met. 560 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: Oh how great. And he was there for you the 561 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: whole time, yes. 562 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: Even now. I mean just the way he's reached out 563 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 2: since then. I mean, this has just been a way 564 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 2: of accumulating people within my life, just amazing people. 565 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: Who just show up and stand by you exactly. 566 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the greatest gift ever. 567 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 1: Yes, I imagine that it is, especially when you are 568 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: spread all over the news in a very short timeframe. 569 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: Was like you were arrested. It was out there, and 570 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: then it kind of wasn't on the news. And whenever 571 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,840 Speaker 1: I would be at anything, I was at some protests 572 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: about the former president who was in office, and I 573 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: was there and I was interviewed, and I would always say, 574 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: what about reality winner, Why aren't you talking about how 575 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: Jeff Session use this as the personal get back person, 576 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: you know, to get back at you for telling the truth, 577 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: and you're a woman, and he likes to do it 578 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,879 Speaker 1: to women, and he likes to think women are less 579 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: than them, And so he used everything within his means 580 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: as the president of the United States to suppress the 581 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: story after you were arrested, and then to not have 582 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: mainstream media really pick it up anywhere. 583 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 2: I think they realized that I'm not like a crazy, 584 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 2: unique person, but there are too many things about me 585 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,720 Speaker 2: that people can identify with. Everybody kind of knows somebody 586 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: kind of like me, or somebody who's thirty or when 587 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: I was twenty five at the time, it was like 588 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 2: I felt like I embody my generation. And there were 589 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 2: too many people out there saying, well, she's not that bad, right, 590 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: I don't agree with her, but she's not that bad. 591 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: And that was when they realized, Oh, okay, so this 592 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 2: big old war that they waged against me in the 593 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 2: press to make me seem like a terrorist sympathizer. Was like, no, 594 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 2: she's just she asks questions and she thinks mm hmm. 595 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 2: And I don't want my personal diaries used against me. 596 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: Right, And you're smart as fuck, right, You're very smart. 597 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: You're very committed to what you believe in, and what 598 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: you believe in mostly is this country. You're a patriot, 599 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 1: and you're somebody who did the right thing for the 600 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: nation to heal the nation from this horrible lie that 601 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: was spread that there was no help from Russia during 602 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election. Then if it wasn't for you 603 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: and what you did, the twenty eighteen election would have 604 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 1: went the same way. That's what all of the experts 605 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: say that you had a tremendous influence on the truth 606 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: of what was happening and alerting the correct people to 607 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: know just how the Russians were doing it and with 608 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: whose help. So I would like to thank you. I 609 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: think you're an American hero reality. I think what you 610 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: did is was needed at the time and when the 611 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 1: press has become corrupted and it's going to take people 612 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: speaking out, speaking truth to power, speaking out about what 613 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: is untrue that we're consuming as citizens of a country 614 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 1: with a supposed free press, to know the factual matter 615 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: of what actually happened to you. So you were there 616 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: for a few months and then you took a plea deal, right. 617 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, So in the spring of twenty eighteen, about 618 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 2: eight months into county jail. We had one last ditch effort. 619 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: We filed forty subpoenas, and the judge, acting like the 620 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: Supreme Court, turned down thirty nine of them. And that 621 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 2: was when they said, you know, we weren't going to 622 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 2: give her sixty months, but because we had to have 623 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: this hearing about the subpoenas and this whole process took 624 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 2: three months, she's getting sixty three months, or you can 625 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 2: try your luck with a jury trial. So they added 626 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: three months. 627 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: Added three months, Yeah, yeah. 628 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: They added three months because we filed some subpoenas to 629 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 2: defend myself. It wasn't a hard decision. It was like 630 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 2: a holy shit, call her back. Called Jenna. Jenna was 631 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 2: the prosecutor. I told Matt. I remember I was on 632 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 2: the phone. I was in the sheriff's office, and I 633 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: was like, holy shit. Matt called Jenna, called Jenna quick 634 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 2: before it's seventy months. 635 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 1: Like right, she was not playing, No, we'll be back 636 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: right after this more with Reality Winner, don't go away. 637 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: So you were in prison during COVID, yes, and you 638 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 1: got very very sick. 639 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 2: I did. However, I at that point I'm not gonna 640 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 2: sugarcoat it. I was using drugs, and so when I 641 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: realized how sick I was, I got really really high, 642 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 2: which kept me eating and drinking despite how nauseated I was, 643 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 2: And I think that's why within about three days most 644 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 2: of the symptoms had subsided. 645 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: Now did you do drugs before you were in prison? 646 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: Was it? 647 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: You were a recreational never used drugs? 648 00:38:59,040 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: Right? 649 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 1: You were kind of of a health freak, kind of workout, 650 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,320 Speaker 1: eat healthy, right, live healthy? That was not your lifestyle. 651 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 2: I would go to bars and ask for a sample 652 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: of beer just to smell it, because I do I'm 653 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 2: a beer connoisseur, but I wouldn't let alcohol in my body, 654 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: so I would just want to smell an ipa. 655 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: Right, that's interesting. But that's somebody who's interested in their 656 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: own health, right. 657 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:23,959 Speaker 2: Right. 658 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: So you get to jail and your whole world in 659 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: life has collapsed, and it feels as though the entire 660 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: country is against you, and your mom is very worried 661 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,360 Speaker 1: about you, and she decides to move down to where 662 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: you are imprisoned. 663 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 2: So I was in County jail for so long awaiting 664 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 2: sentencing that she moved into my house. And then one 665 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 2: of the stipulations of me pleading guilty was I want 666 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 2: it to be as close as possible to my parents' house. 667 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 2: So there's a federal prison in Texas. It's about four 668 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty miles away from my parents' house, and 669 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 2: that was as good as it was going to get. 670 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 2: So one of the things we asked of the government 671 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: was would you support our request to go to that prison, 672 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 2: And they were just like sure, sure, you know, we 673 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,319 Speaker 2: got the sentence we wanted. Well, whatever you want. So 674 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 2: my mother was able to close out my rental house 675 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,359 Speaker 2: and move back home to Texas, where they would drive 676 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,880 Speaker 2: up every six weeks or so to come visit me 677 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: and Fort. 678 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 1: Worth, and she was very worried about the state of 679 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: your health all around always. 680 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 2: I mean even once I got to prison and there 681 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 2: was much more vegetarian food, it was like every meal 682 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 2: is a struggle for resources, Like you don't realize it 683 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: until like you're so caught up in it. Every meal, 684 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 2: every shower, every time you need something. You're always like, 685 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 2: am I close enough to the front of the line 686 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: to get enough? Because federal prisons run out of food 687 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: all the time on mainline, or they wouldn't, they would 688 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 2: purposely not make enough of the vegetarian option, or if 689 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 2: you asked for it and they had to slow down 690 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 2: and make a vegetarian tray, you would get screamed at. 691 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: Wow. 692 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: So I did about three years of just fighting for 693 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 2: the right to be vegetarian, even though I really needed 694 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 2: kosher food. But the chaplain said, there's no such thing 695 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,799 Speaker 2: as a kosher vegetarian. So you can either eat the 696 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: meats in the kosher meals or you can be a 697 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 2: vegetarian on the mainline. So I had to choose between 698 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: my faith and my ethics and just eat non kosher 699 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 2: vegetarian food. Right. 700 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: And the availability of drugs in prison is easy, and 701 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: you've found a lot of people doing that as a 702 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: way to escape the time and the boredom, and you 703 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: fell into that. 704 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 2: I did, and it really wasn't until the George Floyd lockdown. 705 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 2: So after the riots, I thought that they were just 706 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: punishing us. They wouldn't tell us why, of course, but 707 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: they put us on a twenty four to seven lockdown, 708 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: and they came in the unit with tearguns and tasers 709 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 2: and you know, screaming, get down, get in your rooms, 710 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and and they held us like that 711 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 2: and I'm telling you seven straight days where you don't 712 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 2: pee without someone's permission. And you know the officers are men, 713 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 2: so they're asking us women, many of whom I had 714 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 2: a miscarriage when I was twenty, but many of whom 715 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 2: had children, why do you have to pee every hour? 716 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 2: Like fuck, you get out of my medical records. I 717 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 2: need to pee right, And you had to fight for 718 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 2: the right to pee for seven straight days. The food 719 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:55,840 Speaker 2: was brought to the unit, and again it was another 720 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 2: chance for them to not make vegetarian options. So I 721 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 2: went on like a mini hunger strike. And it comes 722 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 2: to find out that the Bureau of Prisons sent its 723 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 2: riot task forces from all federal prisons onto the streets 724 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 2: to beat up civilian protesters, and so when doing so, 725 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 2: the prisons went on a complete lockdown, complete deprivation of 726 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 2: our rights, simply because they wanted to go play cops 727 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 2: on the street. And I was pushing back. Every second 728 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 2: of every day. I would sit there like because our 729 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 2: cells in that particular prison didn't have doors, so I 730 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: sat right on that line of the cinder blocks, and 731 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 2: I would cut out. I had all my magazines with 732 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 2: me and do like these black lives matter collages, like 733 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:56,399 Speaker 2: right in their face. Right. I was starting to become loud, confrontational, violent, agitated. 734 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,839 Speaker 2: And finally the girls in the cell next door, when 735 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 2: I were like Winter, like, you're going to disappear if 736 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 2: you keep this up, like literally you need to chill, 737 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 2: They're like, this isn't drugs. Just take these pills, right, 738 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 2: And after that, you know, I was like, wait, I 739 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,320 Speaker 2: don't have to care, you know, And it was great. 740 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,239 Speaker 2: And then they're like, well, if you like that, you 741 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 2: should try this, and I did. And I had never 742 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 2: tried to hallucinogens, obviously. I everyone smoked a cigarette or anything. 743 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 2: And that was my escape. I said, I can't do 744 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 2: these lockdowns. I can't not exercise. I'm binging and purging again, 745 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,359 Speaker 2: I'm cutting myself if I have to get high every 746 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 2: single day to get through COVID, to keep myself from 747 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 2: the bolimia. It was the only escape I had from 748 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 2: that too, Right, That's what I did. 749 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: And now did people know? Did your mother know? Did 750 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,879 Speaker 1: did the wardens know? Did people say you know you're 751 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 1: getting too fucked up every day? Kiddo? This is not 752 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 1: cool with us. 753 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 2: I mean all my friends, I mean I had friends 754 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 2: that got high and they were still like, dude, you 755 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 2: are better than that. They're like, I'm not, but you are. 756 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 2: And there were some officers. Yeah, as much as other 757 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 2: officers picked on me, there were some officers that knew 758 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 2: just like once I I just you know the word. 759 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 2: This is the stupidest part about prison is that when 760 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 2: I was writing like social studies curriculums, when I was 761 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 2: teaching exercise classes or trying to get educational materials sent 762 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: to me that I could give away to other inmates, 763 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 2: the Special Securities officers and the other you know, the 764 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 2: CEOs were on my ass every day. They're like, what 765 00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,719 Speaker 2: are you exercising for? Like all this other stuff, like 766 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 2: taunting me non stop. If I went to a journalist 767 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 2: to say, you know, the day after George Floyd was murdered, 768 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 2: I saw a white officer in our prison lay hands 769 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 2: on a black woman. You know, don't tell me that's 770 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,439 Speaker 2: not what was on her mind, you know. And every 771 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,400 Speaker 2: time I tried to help somebody, they shit on me. 772 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 2: When I became violent, when I was buying drugs, when 773 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,399 Speaker 2: I was getting caught up with my girlfriend, they left 774 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,279 Speaker 2: me alone. The worse I acted, the more personal space I. 775 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: Got that's interesting. 776 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 2: It was always like, the wors I acted, the more. 777 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:28,040 Speaker 1: I got, Wow, what a horrible way to succeed in prison, you. 778 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 2: Know, I mean I came out that summer. I was 779 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 2: a mess. I was a different person because I thought 780 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 2: the only. 781 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: Way you went in and then you stayed in for 782 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: four and a half years, right, yes, And then they 783 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,640 Speaker 1: told you three days before you're out of here? Did 784 00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,799 Speaker 1: you know that date was the countdown date? 785 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 2: I knew about nine months out and then leading up 786 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 2: to it, COVID was going on. And they pulled me 787 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 2: aside about a month and a half before and they said, 788 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 2: you know, you're supposed to go to your halfway house 789 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:02,919 Speaker 2: on May twenty sixth. However, they're only accepting people on 790 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 2: Wednesdays so that they can all do their COVID quarantine 791 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 2: on the same day of the week, right, they said, 792 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 2: So instead of letting you out maybe with a Thursday, 793 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 2: instead of letting you out the Wednesday before one day early, 794 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,240 Speaker 2: we're keeping you till the next Wednesday. 795 00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: How infuriating. 796 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 2: But I had to go on the phone and tell 797 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 2: my mom it's going to be another Wednesday. It's going 798 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:24,440 Speaker 2: to be a whole week later. 799 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: Now when you get out. Did they have a step 800 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: down program? Did they have some way to help you 801 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 1: with number one your addiction? Number two? Your PTSD R 802 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,399 Speaker 1: bolimia was there? Was there any kind of structure set 803 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,400 Speaker 1: up for you leaving prison to sort of help you 804 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:42,880 Speaker 1: back into society. 805 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 2: No, the constant harassment and re traumatization did not end 806 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,240 Speaker 2: at the prison. At the halfway house, I was promised 807 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 2: to be released a home confinement on an ACLE monitor 808 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 2: within a week, and then the day before they said, oh, 809 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 2: that's not an option for you anymore, because no reason given. 810 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 2: I lawyered up and we started asking questions, and then 811 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 2: at three pm the day before, on a Tuesday, they said, 812 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 2: you can only go home if you can have somebody 813 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 2: pick you up tomorrow morning before nine am. And I said, 814 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm reality fucking winner, like done, Like. 815 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you should have called me. I 816 00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 1: would have come and got you if you would have 817 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: called me. 818 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 2: You know, so you know it. That was hard enough. 819 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,000 Speaker 2: And then I get the INKLE monitor on and we 820 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,799 Speaker 2: go home. These people have my home addressed. This is 821 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 2: the federal government. My INKLE monitors not syncing up with 822 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 2: their system. And I called them and they're like, we 823 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 2: can't find your house on the map. 824 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:46,640 Speaker 1: It's not my fault. 825 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 2: And they said, the inkle monitor's not working. You can 826 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 2: come back and get another or and I said, or 827 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 2: we can keep trying. And you know what I mean 828 00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,640 Speaker 2: with the way these institutions close at five pm, I 829 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:01,480 Speaker 2: was like, do but if we go back, they're not. 830 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: Letting me out all right. I wouldn't go back. 831 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:08,040 Speaker 2: So my dad actually did an apple pin and he 832 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 2: sent them the exact coordinance, like we had to give 833 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:15,800 Speaker 2: the government exact coordinance so they could sink the ankle monitor. 834 00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 2: And then even then the ankle monitor would continue to buzz. 835 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,840 Speaker 2: And then for six straight months, you cannot miss a 836 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 2: phone call, right, you have to keep that phone on 837 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 2: you in the shower. But every time you start to 838 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,360 Speaker 2: shake and you throw up and you get scared. 839 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 1: Of course, how could you not to have all of 840 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,799 Speaker 1: this had happened and what you lived through. I mean, 841 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,440 Speaker 1: how are you doing now? I read something or I 842 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,800 Speaker 1: saw you in an interview where you talked about feeling 843 00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: ashamed of how hard it is to be clean, and 844 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,280 Speaker 1: I thought, why would you be ashamed of that? Honey, 845 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: You're at least doing it right. 846 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, my father was an addict, and I 847 00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 2: spent so much of my formative years in my adult 848 00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 2: early adulthood just like wondering why he couldn't just do 849 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,960 Speaker 2: it for us. And when I decided to get clean 850 00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 2: in that prison with a roommate that was still using 851 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,600 Speaker 2: and still had plenty of access to it, I didn't 852 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 2: understand why it was so hard, especially when I wasn't 853 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,719 Speaker 2: even using an addictive substance. I just have an OCD 854 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 2: repetitive brain function, right, you know, it's part of like 855 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 2: the bolimia. 856 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,240 Speaker 1: Right, Intrusive thoughts, intrusive thoughts. 857 00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 2: Intrusive thoughts, yeah, and patterns, you know. So I was 858 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,399 Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, I just spent four years 859 00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,960 Speaker 2: in a patriot dish of understanding what our country gets 860 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 2: wrong about addiction, And here I am been like I 861 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 2: should have fixed this, and now I can't. And I'm 862 00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,959 Speaker 2: going home in six months and I can't go home 863 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 2: like this? Why is this so hard? 864 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,480 Speaker 1: You are out, now you're off probation, and how are 865 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:57,520 Speaker 1: you doing it this moment? 866 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 2: I am on probation. 867 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you were just off. 868 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,000 Speaker 2: No, I am stuck with a ten pm to six 869 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 2: am curfew, random drug tests and monthly reporting till November 870 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:11,439 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. 871 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,560 Speaker 1: How would you say you're doing in your life? What 872 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of work are you doing? Are you able to 873 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,520 Speaker 1: say that or just be vague with us? 874 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I am. I'm living the dream. I coach CrossFit 875 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,600 Speaker 2: full time great yep, And then in my personal life, 876 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 2: I do CrossFit and I compete acrossfit. You know, we're 877 00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 2: kind of running a dog rescue now. We just got 878 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 2: a new chihuahua with a broken leg. But we're in 879 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,799 Speaker 2: the process of learning how to run a ranch. And 880 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 2: I have a lot of I have a lot of 881 00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 2: hope for the future. I know that right now, it's 882 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 2: still while I have these probation conditions, can't leave the 883 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,319 Speaker 2: southern part of Texas. I'm using that as my insulation, 884 00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,920 Speaker 2: my time to be self indulgent, my time to pretend 885 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:55,760 Speaker 2: like I'm an athlete. 886 00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: You are an athlete reality, don't take that away from yourself. 887 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: Well you are that, and I hope that you have 888 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: found a way to quote unquote forgive yourself. Although what 889 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: I thought about what you did was righteous, brave and courageous, 890 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: patriotic and fan fuckingtastic. I really did. I you know 891 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,479 Speaker 1: you are going to go down in history as a hero. 892 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,439 Speaker 1: And when this horrible time is over and twenty four 893 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 1: and you're able to go speak about whatever it is 894 00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,760 Speaker 1: you want to speak about, I would love to interview 895 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,000 Speaker 1: you again when you have all the stuff that you 896 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,920 Speaker 1: know you might not be able to say now, but 897 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 1: you survived it. And I remember sending you books, being 898 00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: so frustrated that that's all you could send were books 899 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,840 Speaker 1: through Amazon. I thought, how did Amazon get that deal 900 00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,440 Speaker 1: with all of prisons in America right that all the 901 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 1: purchase How did they do that everything that you send 902 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,200 Speaker 1: has to go through Amazon? Listen, I support you, I 903 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: always will, I always have. I think you're fantastic. I 904 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: think that your service to this country is unparalleled. And 905 00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,800 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being so brave and 906 00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,759 Speaker 1: doing what few people would have the courage to do 907 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 1: in the name of truth and in the name of 908 00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 1: the American way. 909 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for your support. And I mean, like 910 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 2: I said, big shout out for you know, being there 911 00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,040 Speaker 2: for my mom. You know she says Hi, yes, And 912 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 2: I mean you that's the most important thing in the 913 00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:21,840 Speaker 2: whole entire world for me, is just making sure my 914 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 2: mom is proud and that she feels supported. You know, 915 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,839 Speaker 2: I did a stupid thing. I threw my life under 916 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:30,600 Speaker 2: the bus. I didn't mean to drag her with me 917 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,719 Speaker 2: and anybody like you that reaches out to her, y'all 918 00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:35,520 Speaker 2: are my heroes. 919 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,279 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to put her instagram on my Instagram 920 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:41,839 Speaker 1: feed and maybe people can reach out and tell her 921 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: what they think of how she parented you through this crisis. 922 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,360 Speaker 1: I think it was pretty astonishing, really astonishing, and I 923 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,120 Speaker 1: look up to her as a parent because you know 924 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,320 Speaker 1: what she did, I would hope to have the courage 925 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 1: to do myself. 926 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 2: Thank you for that. 927 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 1: Hey, Reality Winner, You're the greatest. And I'm glad that 928 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,359 Speaker 1: we're still in Ton, and I'm glad that you could 929 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: do this podcast. And I hope to talk to you 930 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:04,399 Speaker 1: again soon. 931 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:05,439 Speaker 2: Can't wait. 932 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:20,120 Speaker 1: All right, honey, take care of yourself. Well, I hope 933 00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: you guys found that as fascinating as I do. I 934 00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: don't know. I think she's somebody that America should know 935 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,640 Speaker 1: about and should know what happened to her when Trump 936 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: and Jeff Sessions tried to make an example out of 937 00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,759 Speaker 1: her and really almost succeeded in ruining and taking her 938 00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 1: life as she was serving that time, in jail, and 939 00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 1: we have no time for questions this week, but we'll 940 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:45,400 Speaker 1: be back next week with Belinda Carlisle. Enjoy your July 941 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 1: fourth celebration. God bless America and onward, everyone onward.