1
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: Hi, you guys, Welcome back to Killer Thriller doc You Edition.

2
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,600
Speaker 1: I am your host, Jennifer Fessler. You guys, today is

3
00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:22,080
Speaker 1: a hard one. We are diving into the haunting and

4
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,720
Speaker 1: deeply emotional documentary Into the Fire the Lost Daughter. This one.

5
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: I've lost a lot of sleep over this one. It

6
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,479
Speaker 1: tells the true story of a mother who plays her

7
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,240
Speaker 1: daughter for adoption as a teenager and only to learn

8
00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,199
Speaker 1: decades later that her daughter had mysteriously disappeared at the

9
00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,000
Speaker 1: age of fourteen. So what begins is a missing person's

10
00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,599
Speaker 1: case quickly unravels into something far more disturbing. Before her

11
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: disappearance in nineteen eighty nine, Now I'm gonna say her

12
00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,600
Speaker 1: name a million times the wrong way because it's spelled

13
00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,600
Speaker 1: a U n d ria. So they change her adopted

14
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,800
Speaker 1: parents change it to Andrea. I don't know that that

15
00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: makes me want to That already makes me hate them.

16
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,360
Speaker 1: But anyway, So Andrea had accused her adoptive father, Dennis,

17
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,120
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse, allegations that were never fully investigated at

18
00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,080
Speaker 1: the time, and shortly after she vanished, the case went

19
00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 1: cold for years, so leaving her birth mother without answers.

20
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,720
Speaker 1: And anyway, she ends up this unbelievable woman, Kathy. She

21
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: launches her own investigation, and she teams up with this

22
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 1: like this sleuth, that's what they call him, like a

23
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:30,280
Speaker 1: dedicated web sleuth. And they what they uncover is chilling,

24
00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:35,720
Speaker 1: horrifying and fascinating. Also, I have to say, but anyway,

25
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,319
Speaker 1: it's they just bring all this renewed attention to this

26
00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,640
Speaker 1: cold case and starts to like expose other cold cases.

27
00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,160
Speaker 1: And anyway, I am so excited to talk to the

28
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: executive producer. Her name is Nile Capello. And I have

29
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: a lot of questions. I need a lot of a

30
00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:53,800
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of questions. I need a lot

31
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 1: of things answer, things answered. I need to sort of

32
00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:57,000
Speaker 1: wash out a lot.

33
00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm not well. I'm not well, all right,

34
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 2: So let's bring a Nile. Hi.

35
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,280
Speaker 3: Hello, Hie.

36
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 2: So nice to meet you. Thank you so much for.

37
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,520
Speaker 3: Joining us, Thanks for having me.

38
00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:09,839
Speaker 2: So let's meet.

39
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 1: Just first say, I've watched quite a few crime documentaries.

40
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 1: I have definitely seen my fair share of wicked and

41
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: what feels to me, you know, evil and unbelievable and

42
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 1: and you know, shocking and wow, this story was all

43
00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 1: of those things. Maybe my most chilling This might be

44
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,839
Speaker 1: the most chilling documentary I've watched yet in terms of

45
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,919
Speaker 1: my podcast, really hard to watch. Also, you know, I

46
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,440
Speaker 1: have to say in the end, I don't know what

47
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,560
Speaker 1: I never know what words to use, but I like

48
00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,160
Speaker 1: seeing the bad guy get what's coming to him. Can't

49
00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 1: help it so anyway, But let's just launch in how

50
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 1: did you first hear about this story?

51
00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:54,280
Speaker 3: So?

52
00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,960
Speaker 4: I heard about the story through Karl Koppelman. So Carl

53
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 4: has been working on I had been working with Kathy

54
00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 4: Turcinian for quite a while online and they had met

55
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:09,000
Speaker 4: through the online like web spouth and kind of armchair

56
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,200
Speaker 4: detective community.

57
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 3: Carl specifically uses like.

58
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 4: Graphic design and online tools to recreate like photos and

59
00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 4: recreations of like Jane and John does to help identify them.

60
00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,040
Speaker 2: And he does this recreationally.

61
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,600
Speaker 3: He does this recreationally.

62
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,840
Speaker 4: He's like has a full it's like an accountant, and

63
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,359
Speaker 4: like became realized that he just kind of like had

64
00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,440
Speaker 4: a skill set and an ability to like put these

65
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,400
Speaker 4: recreations together, and it's it's totally like of his own accord.

66
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 4: But now he's partnered obviously with a bunch of like

67
00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 4: police departments and she I know he works a lot

68
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 4: with the Dough Network and some of the other big

69
00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,280
Speaker 4: Jane and John Doe organizations. So I had originally reached

70
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,800
Speaker 4: out to him. I mean, I'm always just trying to

71
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 4: talk to people in this world who are on like

72
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,200
Speaker 4: in with the stories that matter and that are ongoing

73
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,360
Speaker 4: as well, and maybe aren't like the front page headline

74
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,320
Speaker 4: news of the New York Times that everyone else has

75
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 4: access to, right And so also this was back like

76
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,680
Speaker 4: in the Quibi days, and so I had actually approached

77
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 4: Carl being like, I.

78
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,360
Speaker 2: Have no idea equiby is, but we'll just keeping short.

79
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 3: Form short form.

80
00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,200
Speaker 4: So it was at that time where short form was everything,

81
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,000
Speaker 4: and I had originally approached him thinking like, maybe there's

82
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 4: a short form show about you doing these recreations. And

83
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,880
Speaker 4: in our conversation he mentioned Dennis Bowman and he told

84
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,799
Speaker 4: me like, this is going to be a huge case,

85
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 4: and it was in it was at a really interesting

86
00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 4: time where it was between Dennis had already been arrested

87
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,680
Speaker 4: for the murder of Kathleen Doyle, but he had yet

88
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 4: to be formally implicated in the death of Andrea. It

89
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 4: was about a month after Karl and I first talked

90
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,559
Speaker 4: that Dennis ended up confessing to Andrea's murder and leading

91
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 4: the detectives to the bone. So it was really the

92
00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 4: timing was incredible in the sense that I was able

93
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,839
Speaker 4: to kind of like see that unfold in real time

94
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,599
Speaker 4: and you know, really kind of get ahead of the

95
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,719
Speaker 4: curve as well. Like the timing just came together so

96
00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,920
Speaker 4: so perfectly. So as things evolved over the next months,

97
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,000
Speaker 4: I started really developing the story and talking to Kathy

98
00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 4: Moore and talking to Carl and understanding all of the

99
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 4: different layers that went into it.

100
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 3: And then and then eventually you know.

101
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,240
Speaker 4: Brought it to my editor, an Atavist, to write the

102
00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,160
Speaker 4: story as a form of creating my own ip in

103
00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 4: the hopes of making the documentary.

104
00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,120
Speaker 1: Well, I will tell you that part of what I

105
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,719
Speaker 1: loved about about it, I loved it it It introduced

106
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 1: us not only introduced us to Kathy, but it allowed

107
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: us to really get to know her, right because from

108
00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,280
Speaker 1: the outside looking and you wouldn't think she'd be such

109
00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,000
Speaker 1: an integral part of this story. And and you know,

110
00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 1: watching it from her perspective, well it was so sad,

111
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,440
Speaker 1: and you know, it was so difficult to watch. But

112
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 1: also I felt very happy to know her, you know,

113
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 1: I mean what she went through was so horrible and

114
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,119
Speaker 1: unlike anything I'd ever really heard of before, even hearing

115
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,120
Speaker 1: about how her mother sort of forced her to give

116
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: up Alexis, and then her getting the phone call and

117
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,480
Speaker 1: thinking that finally shoot this, you know, she was reaching

118
00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,919
Speaker 1: out to her and but and being able to see

119
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: her grit and determination, you know, for a daughter that

120
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:20,960
Speaker 1: she never even knew.

121
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 2: I thought that was.

122
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,679
Speaker 1: Such a beautiful way of you know, telling this story.

123
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,120
Speaker 1: And obviously we got to, you know, hear the whole story,

124
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:31,479
Speaker 1: all the gruesome parts of it, and but I loved

125
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 1: it that you came at it, you know, through her

126
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,160
Speaker 1: vantage point. I thought that just that it made it,

127
00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,080
Speaker 1: uh just more touching and more real and more human.

128
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 4: It's again, it's it's the best like version of this medium.

129
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,440
Speaker 4: You know, documentary is incredible, especially with like the space

130
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,760
Speaker 4: that streaming services has opened up really in between. You know,

131
00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 4: Traditionally there was like PBS docs and then there was

132
00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 4: you know, Oxygen and HL and we're doing some of

133
00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,160
Speaker 4: this crime content, but there wasn't a lot in between it.

134
00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 4: And so it's opened up so much space and to

135
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,200
Speaker 4: be able to produce something and tell a story that

136
00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 4: people are going to watch in their homes and talk

137
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,440
Speaker 4: to their friends about and post on social media about. Like,

138
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 4: that's an incredible tool to be able to use. And

139
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,680
Speaker 4: so what's great about that and great about my job

140
00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 4: is finding people like Kathy who were screaming into the void.

141
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 4: I mean, Kathy was posting, you know, all caps on

142
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,040
Speaker 4: the Heindri's randso on Facebook, accusing Dennis Bowman of this

143
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,720
Speaker 4: death for years, and you know, to be able to

144
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,720
Speaker 4: bring her and put her on this platform and translate

145
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 4: it it translated it in a way that's both entertaining

146
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 4: but all so meaningful and generates these conversations, like you said,

147
00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 4: about motherhood and identity and adoption and you know, family.

148
00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

149
00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 2: Do you think that she that this lot?

150
00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,400
Speaker 1: I think so because I think just watching it, I

151
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,800
Speaker 1: feel like it was cathartic for her. But I am

152
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm wondering she didn't talk a lot about it, but

153
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: how difficult it was for to give up Alexis and

154
00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,720
Speaker 1: then knowing the kind of life that she lived. The guilt,

155
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: And I'm I don't think she was guilty for one

156
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 1: tiny little part of this.

157
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:09,440
Speaker 2: She wasn't.

158
00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, but just the you know,

159
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 1: the mind that that would be to think that, you know,

160
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 1: you didn't even want to give up this baby, and

161
00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: then this is what happened. But I wonder if number one,

162
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,000
Speaker 1: if she does carry a lot of guilt. I really

163
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: hope she doesn't. And number two, do you think that

164
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:28,800
Speaker 1: doing the stock is alleviated if she did have it

165
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 1: alleviated any of it and the fact that she found

166
00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,360
Speaker 1: the killer that too, I.

167
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 4: Think it was like the ultimate act of closure and

168
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,920
Speaker 4: a mother's love, like to go to the you know,

169
00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 4: the ends of the earth for your kid and to me, like,

170
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 4: you know, obviously, it's I think more less than guilt.

171
00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,040
Speaker 4: I think it's the contrast between she had appeased, like

172
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 4: had comforted herself over the years by saying like, this

173
00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 4: is so hard that I had to give up Alexis,

174
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,480
Speaker 4: and I think about her and I miss her, but

175
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,079
Speaker 4: it's okay because Alexis is living such.

176
00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,559
Speaker 3: A better life than I could have given her.

177
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 4: You know, that's like the self talk that you do,

178
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,000
Speaker 4: and that's you know, a lot of cases true. You know,

179
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,640
Speaker 4: like a lot of kids that come out of you know,

180
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 4: or put into adopted homes have great parents.

181
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,160
Speaker 2: Most I would think ninety hopefully ninety nine percent. I mean,

182
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,079
Speaker 2: I'm hoping absolutely.

183
00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:21,880
Speaker 3: And so that's what you know.

184
00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 4: That's I think the narrative that Kathy had reassured herself

185
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 4: with was like, this was so hard, but you made

186
00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:33,600
Speaker 4: this sacrifice for Alexis, for the life that Alexis could

187
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 4: now go off and lead. Yeah. So to then be

188
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,439
Speaker 4: confronted with the reality that Alexis had not had that,

189
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 4: I think that not not necessarily guilt, but did place

190
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 4: a burden on Cassie. I think Kathie felt like, oh

191
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,000
Speaker 4: my god, this whole time I've been thinking that she

192
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 4: was in this caring, loving household that was giving her

193
00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,360
Speaker 4: all these things that I couldn't have given her.

194
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 3: In the end, it is up to me.

195
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,960
Speaker 4: And that's what's so great about the film is it

196
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,680
Speaker 4: is that personal, kind of like Heroes journey of Kathy,

197
00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,560
Speaker 4: who did not set out to be this person or

198
00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 4: lived this life and made an incredibly human decision, you know,

199
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,920
Speaker 4: in the child's best interest, and then when that didn't

200
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:15,600
Speaker 4: turn out.

201
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:17,800
Speaker 1: And not you know, she didn't, she didn't not just

202
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 1: Oslin and I call her Alexis.

203
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 2: I don't know which to call her.

204
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 3: What is Kathy prefers Alexis, So I'm gonna.

205
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 1: Call her Alexis, but not just in Alexis's life. Look

206
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: what she did for Meta, you know, look at what

207
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 1: she did, So this is what is Also it's something

208
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 1: that is so satisfying because you know, you watch crime

209
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 1: docs and it's just so much darkness, is so much

210
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 1: misery and fear. But then there's the ones that I've

211
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: watched and there's also something that is poignant and human

212
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 1: and like very gratifying. So watching the impact that she

213
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 1: had on Meta was was one of those things that

214
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:54,240
Speaker 1: I just loved.

215
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,160
Speaker 4: Seeing their relationship is incredible and I think like the

216
00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,960
Speaker 4: strength that they found any each other, and it is

217
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 4: this beautiful story again of like a mother figure and

218
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,760
Speaker 4: a daughter figure, and there's this incredible theme of like

219
00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,640
Speaker 4: I said, motherhood and just like what it is to

220
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 4: be a woman and what it is to look out

221
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 4: for each other as women. And I think that that

222
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,559
Speaker 4: relationship was one of my fas. I'm so happy that

223
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,440
Speaker 4: we were able to highlight that because that is like

224
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 4: there are positives and the the whole reason we wanted

225
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 4: to do this, there was a very strong why. You know,

226
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,680
Speaker 4: I'm always thinking about stories. It's like why this story?

227
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:30,360
Speaker 1: Why me?

228
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 3: Why now?

229
00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 4: And this had all of those things in such a

230
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,720
Speaker 4: powerful way and to be able to showcase Kathy's journey,

231
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:43,480
Speaker 4: but then also have these incredibly human storylines with meta

232
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,880
Speaker 4: with Karl, like just these interaction of these real people

233
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,520
Speaker 4: dealing with like real stuff like what do you do?

234
00:11:49,840 --> 00:12:00,319
Speaker 3: You know, you figure it out.

235
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,720
Speaker 2: I have a couple of technical questions.

236
00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,080
Speaker 1: So yes, facebook group thing, okay, so, which was obviously brilliant.

237
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: So she sets up a Facebook group looking for Alexis

238
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,360
Speaker 1: and using the name Andrea. Yeah, and that's when people

239
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,360
Speaker 1: started to contact her. But my question is how did

240
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,720
Speaker 1: that happen? Because like she didn't even know the high school,

241
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:26,560
Speaker 1: she didn't know where she grew up. All she knew

242
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 1: was the name. So were people searching for Andrea online?

243
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,240
Speaker 1: Like how did even I'm wondering, like, you know, her

244
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,480
Speaker 1: reach really exploded in all of these high school people

245
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 1: and you know meta, and how did.

246
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:40,679
Speaker 2: She do that?

247
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 4: So it also it really started with the Racine County

248
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 4: Jane does. There was this other body that was found

249
00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,320
Speaker 4: that ended up being a different deceased woman named Peggy Johnson,

250
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 4: and so in that investigation, because Andre you know, Yeah,

251
00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:01,280
Speaker 4: she knew a missing person and so people like Carl

252
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,240
Speaker 4: are always trying to make matches between like missing people,

253
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 4: and Jane does and so they were like, oh, this

254
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,360
Speaker 4: could be a match because they Holland and where Riscine

255
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,360
Speaker 4: County is are basically across the lake from each other.

256
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,720
Speaker 3: So they that as part.

257
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 4: Of that investigation, they identified Kathy, and they went to

258
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 4: Kathy and they got her DNA. They would not give

259
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,760
Speaker 4: her really any information. They didn't even give her I

260
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,480
Speaker 4: don't I don't even think that right.

261
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 2: It was a closed adoption. They couldn't write.

262
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 3: But she knew the birthday and she knew the state.

263
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,319
Speaker 4: And so she went on into the missing person's database,

264
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 4: which is again like the beauty of the Internet and

265
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,680
Speaker 4: these tools that have you know, made this information accessible.

266
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,440
Speaker 3: She went online. Her and her husband ed and they were.

267
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 4: And such a great support, like for her to have

268
00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,240
Speaker 4: him is incredible, and so they they went online and

269
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 4: they started looking missing people and pretty quickly found Andrea's

270
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 4: listing which had her birthday on it, and so they

271
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,560
Speaker 4: she began putting those pieces together and then really on

272
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,840
Speaker 4: her own figured out okay, she went missing from Holland Michigan.

273
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,040
Speaker 4: This is where she went to high school, and then

274
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,800
Speaker 4: she basically made that Facebook group just in hopes that

275
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 4: those people would also find her. And so such a

276
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 4: great story about technology.

277
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 3: I mean, there's tons of.

278
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 4: Awful things about social media, even especially in her crime.

279
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 4: You know, you see, I think a lot of the

280
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 4: stuff with the IAHO for roommates, and like, you know,

281
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,640
Speaker 4: we've seen over the years some of the negative effects

282
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,200
Speaker 4: of this media environment. But the really positive, really encouraging

283
00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 4: side is that, like I don't know if this case

284
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,200
Speaker 4: would have been solved without Facebook, without these internet tools,

285
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,800
Speaker 4: let alone without the you know, DNA technology that ultimately

286
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 4: you know, made.

287
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 1: All this start, but also the way that Kathy was

288
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,680
Speaker 1: able to figure out how to put the pieces together.

289
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,160
Speaker 1: I don't know know that I would have had the wherewithal,

290
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,320
Speaker 1: or that many people would have had the wherewithal to say, okay,

291
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 1: so this is the date, this is the day she disappeared.

292
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 1: And I remember her husband saying it was so easy

293
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 1: I literally put in But I the fact that it's this,

294
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of women, I don't

295
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,280
Speaker 1: know what I would do in that situation, but would

296
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,120
Speaker 1: have just crawled up into a ball right, and that

297
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,920
Speaker 1: that pain would have been nobody wouldn't have even wanted

298
00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 1: to look at it. So I am this woman is

299
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,800
Speaker 1: my hero. I hope one day I can just hug her.

300
00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 1: But anyway, but I thought that all that, Yeah, she's incredible.

301
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 1: All of that was so fascinating to me that she,

302
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,080
Speaker 1: you know, was able to just even do what she did.

303
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,080
Speaker 1: And you guys listeners like, it's really quite remarkable that

304
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,120
Speaker 1: she created this Facebook group. And then the messages started

305
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 1: pouring in, and one of those messages was from this woman,

306
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: young woman named Meta, and and that was such an

307
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,640
Speaker 1: interesting part of this story. So I know me and

308
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 1: I tend to just I just want to, like, I

309
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,960
Speaker 1: get nervous because we have an hour, and I'm like,

310
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:02,480
Speaker 1: I have to get to everything I want to get to,

311
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: but I want this to be five hours I have.

312
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: So I'm so captivated by the story. But okay, so

313
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,840
Speaker 1: here's a question I want to ask. So Dennis and

314
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: Brenda those assholes pieces okay't and I can't help it.

315
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 2: I fucking hate them. I'm sorry.

316
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,400
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know that's not evolved. One day I'll

317
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,640
Speaker 1: be more evolved. But anyway, those pieces of she had

318
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: another daughter. Okay, they had you guys baby when Andrea disappeared,

319
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,600
Speaker 1: before she disappeared, so.

320
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 2: Where is she in the world?

321
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 1: So it didn't you guys didn't show her, and I'm

322
00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: sure that was I would think that she didn't want

323
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 1: to be shown. But also you had to be careful

324
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 1: to respect her. And God knows what this poor young

325
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,480
Speaker 1: woman has been through. But can you tell us anything

326
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 1: more about her?

327
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,960
Speaker 4: We really, you know, that was one of the points

328
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,440
Speaker 4: that we talked a lot about of how to deal.

329
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,240
Speaker 2: With Vanessa, right, Vanessa, Yeah, because.

330
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 4: You know, obviously we call out Brenda. You know, we're

331
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,000
Speaker 4: pretty ovid developed that she you know, whether you think

332
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,600
Speaker 4: she knew or was complicit or simply just like wasn't

333
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,960
Speaker 4: taking you know, wasn't protecting Andrea in the way that

334
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 4: she should have, which I think is pretty clear.

335
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 3: You know.

336
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,800
Speaker 4: I Vanessa is more complicated, you know, I think, like,

337
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,959
Speaker 4: we don't know what she's been through, We don't know

338
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 4: what her story is, and we have to like have

339
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,239
Speaker 4: a level of respect for that. I think, you know,

340
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,320
Speaker 4: it's sad for me because I think from all the

341
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:32,440
Speaker 4: stories I've heard, Andrea really loved Vanessa and they had

342
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,639
Speaker 4: a really beautiful reception.

343
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,240
Speaker 2: She was so scared of Vanessa.

344
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so my hope is that you know, I haven't Yeah,

345
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,159
Speaker 4: I haven't spoken to Vanessa directly, but my hope is

346
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,640
Speaker 4: that you know, from from seeing this doc, that Vanessa

347
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 4: might know like, oh my god, Andrea really loved me

348
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 4: and like I had this sister who like really cared

349
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,720
Speaker 4: to me and wanted the best for me, and yeah,

350
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 4: you know, kind of just got a bad shake. But

351
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 4: no one holds any I think resentment or like, you know,

352
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:00,680
Speaker 4: it's tough.

353
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,959
Speaker 3: It's so she I think she is.

354
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,679
Speaker 4: I don't know the details of her relationship with Brenda

355
00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,719
Speaker 4: or Dennis, but I know she wasn't you know, in

356
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:12,360
Speaker 4: a position to kind of like separate herself from them,

357
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 4: at least when we did the production. But you know,

358
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 4: everyone like she's on her own journey and like I said,

359
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 4: there's no there's no blame or resentment there. And my

360
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 4: biggest hope with this dock in terms of Vanessa was

361
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 4: for her to know, like, you know, I think there

362
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 4: was a bit of a narrative that Andrea just like

363
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,960
Speaker 4: left and disappeared, and if I was the younger sister.

364
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 3: Who's you know, maybe wasn't. I don't know exactly what was.

365
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 4: Going on in the house, but we know there was

366
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 4: were some things going on, you know, based on these

367
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 4: first hand accounts, Like I, you know, I don't know,

368
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 4: maybe I would feel abandoned, and maybe I would be like,

369
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,040
Speaker 4: how could she have run away and left me? Yeah,

370
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 4: so I learned me that was like a huge something

371
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,719
Speaker 4: I really wanted to accomplish, was just to have that

372
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,000
Speaker 4: narrative out there where it's like, oh, no, like your

373
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,880
Speaker 4: sister didn't abandon you, your sister really loved you and

374
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 4: and would have loved to grow together.

375
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:05,680
Speaker 1: I can't remember, if I can't wait, I can't remember

376
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 1: if Vanessa defended her parents at one point, didn't she

377
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:15,880
Speaker 1: say something defended her father in the like, yeah.

378
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 4: There was I know at one point she had she

379
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 4: had said something, but I think it was more like

380
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,199
Speaker 4: we don't you don't know what you don't like, but

381
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 4: they were still uncovering quite a bit of information at

382
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 4: that time, or any of it.

383
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 1: I hope that this woman grew up in some sort

384
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: of peace.

385
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,680
Speaker 2: I can only imagine too, me too.

386
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 4: And look also for Brenda, Like, you know, I think

387
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 4: Brenda's obviously a different situation, like it was her responsibility

388
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,439
Speaker 4: to take care of Alex, like Andrea that wasn't you know,

389
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 4: It's a different relationship than a sibling one.

390
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 3: But also we.

391
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,120
Speaker 4: Don't know what Brenda has been through, and I think

392
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,720
Speaker 4: like there's you know, it's it's easy to it's easy

393
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 4: to think whatever from the outside. We'll never know how

394
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 4: much she knew or didn't now. But I I also

395
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,960
Speaker 4: think we won't know what was going on in that house,

396
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 4: and there's probably a lot that has happened.

397
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: You're a better family than I am. You are a

398
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: way more yea, I am way more forgiving. And I

399
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,720
Speaker 1: don't know, you know how many of the viewers will

400
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,720
Speaker 1: feel the way you do, how many will feel the

401
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 1: way I do. I feel like, of course she knew,

402
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,919
Speaker 1: and I am so angry at her, and I you know,

403
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 1: I'm Kathy talked about it obviously as well. But she

404
00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: had no consequences and maybe there's nothing that can be proved.

405
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 1: And maybe and maybe I'm wrong, right, maybe she was

406
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 1: so scared. I don't know, But as just as a viewer, right,

407
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 1: I feel like she was culpable. There was there How

408
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 1: could she not have been? This man was a monster

409
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: and not only that, like the friend that came over

410
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: and said that he smacked her. He smacked Alexus across

411
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: the face during dinner, and so it was like he

412
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: was it was that hidden. And then they would go

413
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: to the cousin and and she would, you know, say

414
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 1: that he was sexually abusing her.

415
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 2: Then she would have to lie about it. And Brenda

416
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: was there.

417
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 1: Right, So yes, and again I don't I don't have

418
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 1: her perspective.

419
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 4: Well, we know, we do know that that Andrea went

420
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 4: to her and said that there was frustation happening. And

421
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,199
Speaker 4: we do know that, you know, a big part of

422
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 4: obviously that doc is his previous criminal record. And we

423
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,159
Speaker 4: do know that before Andrea was in the picture, he

424
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,159
Speaker 4: had been and there was a point where he was

425
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 4: serving time for his first arrest or the first one that, yeah,

426
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 4: his first arrest.

427
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 3: I was gonna say first crime, first first arrest.

428
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 4: We know about where he was serving time at the prison,

429
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 4: and Brenda actually moved her in Alexis or Andrea up

430
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 4: to to be closer to the prison so that they

431
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 4: could visit him and about Yeah, so like all of

432
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 4: those things look like I think there certainly were plenty

433
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 4: of boarding sides that I think, like Andrea trying. That's

434
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 4: one of the things that really motivated me in making

435
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 4: this doc was like Andrea had cried really hard to

436
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 4: get help, and that's like one of the most heartbreaking

437
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 4: things for me was like she tried to tell people.

438
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 2: She did say that, I know.

439
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 4: She told school and yeah, Like then they bring her

440
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 4: in front of her parents and she says, no, I

441
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,160
Speaker 4: didn't say that, Like right, So we have a different

442
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 4: understanding I think of domestic incidents now than we did

443
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 4: back in the eighties. I think our cultural there was

444
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 4: a lot of families that were like we knew something

445
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 4: was weird, but we didn't really want to get in

446
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 4: the middle, like we didn't know enough. And so I

447
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 4: think all of those things, unfortunately really worked against Andrea

448
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 4: where she was really trying to get help for this,

449
00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 4: and I think, you know she that's part of the

450
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 4: really sad thing for me, And one of the main

451
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 4: reasons that I wanted to do this is like she

452
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 4: tried so hard to tell people what was going on,

453
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 4: and so if she couldn't tell it, then at least,

454
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 4: like we can tell it now and.

455
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 3: Sort of get her story out there.

456
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 4: And also like talk about her and who she was,

457
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 4: and you know, so often in these true crime stories

458
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 4: we reduced the victims to how they died. And I

459
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 4: think really looking at like, you know, the lighthearted stories

460
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 4: from her friends.

461
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love when you and you like did the clips.

462
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: Obviously they were in real time or whatever, the like

463
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,959
Speaker 1: of them dancing and that. And I only saw a

464
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,199
Speaker 1: very small amount of dramatization here. I mean those hearing

465
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 1: Dennis's voice and you hear a lot of it, and

466
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: all of that was real, right, there was nothing that

467
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 1: was all all of his interrogations, all of his phone calls. Again, listeners,

468
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, it's bone chilling, but it is.

469
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: It is such a bird's eye view into this the

470
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: sick this. I'm sorry, I can't help, but this is

471
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: why you're a documentarian and I am doing a podcast.

472
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: But I want to say this sick MF. I just can't.

473
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, you captured you guys had

474
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: so much to listen to about his the way his

475
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: crazy brainwork. Do you have this at all, like, not

476
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 1: just from this documentary, but do you get like I

477
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: get and like I'm sure you know viewers and listeners

478
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: get like do you get so angry? And I just

479
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: and I I'm at the end, I'm so excited to

480
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 1: watch him get his you know, I mean, do you

481
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: have that are you? Just as a documentary you have

482
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: to look at people in more of a human way.

483
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 4: I mean I think for me, look like there's I'm

484
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 4: I'm a human, Like there's no way to take emotions

485
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 4: out of it, and like I take on the stories

486
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 4: that I think matter, and my goal is always to

487
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 4: present information in primary sources and facts in a way

488
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 4: that will a lessen a reaction like you having that

489
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 4: reaction is the goal. It's not my job though to

490
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 4: say you should hate this person or this person's evil or.

491
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: Make no I just want to know how you men feel.

492
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look like I take on cases where

493
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 4: I think like there's a story that hasn't been told

494
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 4: that needs to be told, or there's someone that needs

495
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 4: to be listened to that hasn't been listened to, and

496
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 4: so I for me, like that is my motivation.

497
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 3: And of course there's.

498
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 4: Emotion and that and those are people that I feel

499
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 4: strongly about, like giving them a mic. But yeah, I

500
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 4: mean I think everyone's complicated and like I think What

501
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 4: is interesting to me about crime is like the psychology.

502
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 4: Even someone like Dennis Bowman, who obviously has done a

503
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 4: lot of really terrible things.

504
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 2: Was probably abused, probably grew up, and.

505
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 4: That doesn't excuse it, that doesn't make it okay. That's

506
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 4: not saying this person. But I think from a perspective

507
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 4: of like understanding people better, understanding crime is better, and

508
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 4: like ideally helping prevent this from happening to other people,

509
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 4: you have to look at the full picture. And it's

510
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 4: easier to dismiss people and be like they're bad, we

511
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 4: hate them. It's more productive, at least for me to

512
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 4: look at like, okay, but how did this person.

513
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 3: Become this way?

514
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 4: What allowed them to breaks those natural kind of like

515
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 4: barriers and boundaries that we all.

516
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 3: Keep ourselves in check. That's like a very human thing.

517
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so to see someone who's able to like

518
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 4: you know, I mean Dennis lived a very double life,

519
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 4: like he had this family, He was doing these things.

520
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: Obviously people knew, but to be able to fake it

521
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 4: like that is really interesting to me from a psychological

522
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,959
Speaker 4: perspective and from a human perspective. So obviously there's emotion,

523
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 4: and obviously, like anyone who's doing that thing, you know,

524
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 4: I you know, there's a obviously a desire, but I

525
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 4: think for me, the desire is to expose the truth.

526
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:35,440
Speaker 2: Well, I thank you.

527
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: Your job is to be real and show us all.

528
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: I get that, all the different aspects of it. That's

529
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: why I don't want your job. I would rather just

530
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: sit back and hate this as of right sex.

531
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 4: You know, like it's hard to obviously, like you get emotional,

532
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 4: you care about people, you care about their journeys. But

533
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of like power in the

534
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 4: truth and any especially in the media environment we're living in,

535
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 4: Like it can be.

536
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: Hard to pin down what's true and what's not, and.

537
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 4: So being able to like that feels I feel a

538
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 4: lot of strength and power in that part of my

539
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 4: job where it's like this is the undeniable, Like whatever.

540
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 3: You think about.

541
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 4: You know, people could have good reactions with Dennis Bowman

542
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 4: on the street, sure, but at the end of the day,

543
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 4: we have the facts.

544
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,719
Speaker 3: Or that he killed these people.

545
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he killed it and brutaled right right exactly.

546
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. So back to Brenda for

547
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: a second. The fact that he moved them so quickly

548
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: after the disappearance and the fact that he said to her,

549
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: you got to stop looking for you, gotta stop looking

550
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: for alexis all of that. Do you think that Brenda

551
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: had knew that it was Dennis? Do you think that

552
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: any of that gave her pause? Please say no or

553
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I want you to say?

554
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: What do you think?

555
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 4: I mean?

556
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: I think it's hard to imagine. There wasn't an.

557
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: Anything after she knew what he did, right, that's the part.

558
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: But like Nia, that's the part that kills me. She

559
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: knew he was in child for this, like she knew it.

560
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: She was there.

561
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: When he said no, stop know stop looking for her.

562
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 4: I think there's a gap between here's what I would

563
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 4: say and I don't know, like haven't I haven't had

564
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: I you know Brenda knows this and really no one else.

565
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 4: I think the evidence if you look at him having

566
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 4: a previous charge Andrea coming to them and saying there's

567
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 4: molea state you know he's sexually abusing me, then those clues.

568
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 4: I think most people that's where they would go.

569
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 3: Oh.

570
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,679
Speaker 4: I also think there's a gap between when you suspect

571
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 4: something and not wanting confirmation. I do not think that

572
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 4: Brenda wanted him to tell her.

573
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: I would agree with that, and I think that she.

574
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 4: May have avoided asking things directly.

575
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: The barrel that was moved and buried. You think she

576
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: noticed any of that.

577
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 4: I don't know.

578
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: I don't know what the dynamics of that house were.

579
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 4: I don't know if it was something where she was

580
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: there or she was out of town. Like I just

581
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 4: I there certainly were plenty of clues that this is

582
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 4: what was going on.

583
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: But I would I think there is something.

584
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 4: I recognize in her, this sort of like desire to

585
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 4: not acknowledge these things. Because even when even when Andrea

586
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 4: came forward, you know, her response was not like oh my,

587
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: like you know which, of course, like you don't want

588
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 4: your husband to be abusing your daughter.

589
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 3: That's not a positive thing.

590
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: Right, But with most most mothers, what you really don't

591
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: want is your daughter to be abused more than you

592
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: don't want your husband to be abusing.

593
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 4: It's clear that Brenda's loyalty has been to Dennis, of course,

594
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 4: and that her priority has been Dennis. So same with

595
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 4: moving the kids to go and visit him at a prison,

596
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 4: Like I think that's that's certainly not a choice. I

597
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 4: would make if my husband was arrested for trying to

598
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 4: kidnap and sexually assault a woman in the woods, I

599
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 4: would be divorcing him, you know, like that's not something

600
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 4: you work through.

601
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: No, I think that would definitely be my choice.

602
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: But but even like so, because I asked you about

603
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: the barrel and like did she or did she not notice?

604
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: I also I'm wondering, you know, Kathy knew where she

605
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: was buried whatever, it was a mother's intuition, you know,

606
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: the universe giving her that information. Why did it take

607
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: so long to follow up with her hunch? That part

608
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: I also didn't get and really wanted to ask you

609
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: because they just so Yeah.

610
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: I always feel like people are listening.

611
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: You guys have already seen it, because I never want

612
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: to give anything away. But at the same time, too bad,

613
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: because I have to have answers to all my questions

614
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: and I can't help it. But tell me, like what

615
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: you think, why did it take so long? And she

616
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: was right there?

617
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: I mean I think that is she was.

618
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 4: It was a hunch, like it is so and it's

619
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 4: it's inexplainable, like Kathy had no evidence really to believe

620
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 4: that she was there. I mean, yes, you can see

621
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 4: the mark changing on Google Maps. I don't know how

622
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 4: much Kathy was like looking on Google Maps every day.

623
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 4: I think she she had a mother, She had an intuition,

624
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,479
Speaker 4: She had an instinct. I don't know exactly what that is,

625
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 4: but she had it. And that is very much not

626
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 4: what cops like.

627
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: The first thing I would think that the cops would

628
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: do would be searched in the backyard.

629
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: They would have had to have reasonable cause.

630
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 4: They would have had to have reasonable cause, which I

631
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 4: guess at that point they have a cold case.

632
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 3: After Kathleen, and then they did.

633
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 4: That's when they started really doing the searches of the

634
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 4: homeless after Kathleen, and I think that provided them a

635
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 4: bit of probable cause to be able to conduct those

636
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 4: searches and get those warrants because there had been such

637
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 4: a gap between Andrea going missing and you know, I

638
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 4: think a lot of people really did believe that Andrea

639
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 4: ran away. You know, there's there's you have a terrible homework,

640
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 4: Like I think universally people knew that their the home

641
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 4: life wasn't great, and so sure, in one way, yeah,

642
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 4: you could think that she was killed, but I think

643
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 4: a probably more reasonable and more rightly situation is that

644
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 4: she ran away and got away, which you would.

645
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: Have you know, I wish I thought was what we found.

646
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: I wish you'd found Andrea U had had got away

647
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 4: and lived some great life. So you know, I think

648
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 4: that that's also you know, it helped them get away

649
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 4: with it, helped Dennis get away with it for so long,

650
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 4: I think because people did believe that narrative, and people

651
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: also were like hoping that was the trap was yeah,

652
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 4: people like that.

653
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: There were so many heroes in this, but meta the

654
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: fact that she recognized him she was six, right, and

655
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: that she I don't she heard the voice, saw us,

656
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: she knew that it was him. That was creepy. But

657
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: I want to know. This is like just like how

658
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: is she today? I mean, I really want to know,

659
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of you fall in love with

660
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: these people and they're bravery, Like is she that happened

661
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: when she was six? I don't even have any idea

662
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: what kind of that would have had on the rest

663
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: of her life.

664
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: I hope that she has the best.

665
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: Doctors and psychiatrists in all of that, because I can't

666
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: even imagine the toll that that took or is still taking.

667
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: Even how is she doing, She's good.

668
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I think like closure is really powerful and

669
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: like to be able to know I mean Meta's stories.

670
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 3: Specifically, and the way she talks about it is.

671
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 4: So just incredibly selfless in the sense that she said, like,

672
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 4: you know, a obviously this person's you know, the picture

673
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 4: of this person's face is ingrained in your memory forever,

674
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 4: you know, when you have a massive trauma like that.

675
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 4: But I think also the fact that he got away,

676
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 4: She said, like, I was worried he was going to

677
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 4: do this to other little girls, Like it didn't feel

678
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: like this was a one off.

679
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: Thing that this guy did. It felt like I was

680
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: one of many that he was going to do this too.

681
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 4: And so for her to have, even at a young age,

682
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 4: to be able to be like I had this incredibly

683
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 4: traumatic thing happened to me. There's this very onerous peace,

684
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 4: which is we don't know where he is and he's

685
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 4: still out there. I think it being able to put

686
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 4: a put a name to that face and be able

687
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 4: to then know that that man is.

688
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 5: In jail, yes, of course is you know, obviously long

689
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 5: justice delayed, and also you know, technically he's never been

690
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 5: charged with Meta's abduction and assault but I think for

691
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 5: her to be able to like say, you know, I

692
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 5: recognize this person to be Dennis, to see him, to

693
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 5: then connect with Kathy, have that incredibly cathartic experience, and

694
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 5: then be able to get justice for Andrea, like if

695
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 5: not for herself. You know, I think Meta feels like

696
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 5: that's the next best thing. I don't want to speak

697
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 5: for her, obviously, but I think there is a real

698
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,919
Speaker 5: sense of closure and justice said ability to like now

699
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 5: move forward, And I think that's that's always my hope

700
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 5: with doing docs, and I think especially with this one,

701
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 5: was like, this has been not a burden, but this

702
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 5: has been everyone's life involved in this.

703
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 3: Story for so long, and.

704
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 4: So to be able to restore the closure, to be

705
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 4: able to restore some of Andrea's memory, but yeah, I

706
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 4: mean that's you know, they're closure is a hard word.

707
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 4: I think everyone that feels, you know, has mixed feelings

708
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 4: about it, because there's never really closure when you go

709
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 4: through a trauma like this. But I think this is

710
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: like the best week, you know, clos as you can get,

711
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 4: the closest me can get.

712
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: I thought about I don't know why I thought about this,

713
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: but when Meta's like Meta's mom watching this now, and

714
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to say that you did a very good

715
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: job of saying, or Meta did a very good job

716
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 1: of saying, it was a different time when her mom

717
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: had her take that walk by herself. She was only

718
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: six years old, so twenty twenty six, I don't not

719
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: many parents feel safe letting their six year olds go anywhere, right,

720
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: but back in the day, in the way that you

721
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: described the town, I thought that was very sensitive because

722
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, as a viewer, you could watch it and say, well,

723
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: why was this six year old walking to the gas

724
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: station by herself? Was a very different time, And I

725
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 1: also I thought it was very sensitive to not only

726
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: metap but to her mom. I have no idea what

727
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: E didn't talk about her mom, but I hope that

728
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: she's okay. I can't imagine having to live with that,

729
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: right that you let your daughter walk alone and she

730
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: got abducted.

731
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 4: I think it was such a different time, and I

732
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 4: think that's why I like to tell these stories.

733
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: In a sensitive way and in a way.

734
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 4: Where like we're working with the people directly, because look

735
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 4: like everyone's instinct when you hear about a crime is

736
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 4: to put your put distance between yourself and whatever happened.

737
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: Like I would write, I would never do that. That

738
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: couldn't happen to my kid, right, it.

739
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 3: Could never happen to me, could never happen to my kid.

740
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: And you want to blame like not that you're blaming

741
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 4: the victim, but you want to say, there's something that

742
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 4: they did that made that happen that I wouldn't do.

743
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 4: And that's a that's like a coping mechanism. That's how

744
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 4: we rationalize these things, because it is so incredibly hard

745
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 4: for people for something like this happen and to rationalize it.

746
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: How do you make sense of that? And so I

747
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 3: think there's you.

748
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 4: Know, that element, and that's something I really try to

749
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 4: counter in my work is even you know, I did

750
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 4: The Way Down, which was about a cult, and I,

751
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 4: you know, my biggest thing in doing that was like,

752
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 4: I don't want anyone to be able to watch this

753
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 4: and be like, why I'd never fall for that, because

754
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 4: you would like, maybe that message isn't the right message

755
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 4: for you, But there's a message that's right for you.

756
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: You knows a thing that would make you.

757
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: And so I thought it was great that you gave

758
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: a moment to that, you know, I mean, you only

759
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: have definitely so much real estate and how long was it?

760
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 2: Three hours?

761
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 1: And that you kind of gave a moment to that

762
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: because I know what it was like back then. I

763
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 1: was alive, you know, and it was it was a

764
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: very different time. Okay, so just tell me, well two things.

765
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: I want to know a little bit about about how

766
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: Kathy's life is now. But I also want to know

767
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: I think if it were me, I would want to

768
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: live very close to Brenda. I would want to just

769
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I don't know, because thankfully I haven't

770
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: been through anything like this. But do they live in

771
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:04,720
Speaker 1: close proximity now?

772
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,439
Speaker 4: Not super close, I mean definitely within I think they're

773
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 4: in the same like region. But and Kathy's always on

774
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: the move.

775
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: Her and Ed she's great.

776
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 4: I mean, she's writing a book which I think is

777
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 4: like great and will allow her to get into you know,

778
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 4: like you said, there's only so much.

779
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: Real estate, and.

780
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 4: You know, we could have made five hours of this,

781
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 4: you know, or more. And so there's a lot I think,

782
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 4: especially about her mother and that relationship and like how.

783
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 3: That all broke down.

784
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: Oh good, I wanted to know more about it.

785
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:37,439
Speaker 3: Good.

786
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's some really cool too, just like Kathy was

787
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 4: this like runaway living in New Orleans and like had

788
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 4: this really super interesting life, and I think there is

789
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 4: really a story about motherhood and identity and finding yourself

790
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 4: and all those things. So I really that was not

791
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: like I obviously we had to like we had to

792
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 4: make choices. I'm excited to be able to have to

793
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 4: learn more about that and for everyone to learn more

794
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 4: about it, because I felt like that was a really

795
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 4: cool part of her story that like just didn't it

796
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 4: didn't end up having as much real estate as maybe

797
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 4: we would have bonded it too.

798
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: I would love that I make it, Please make many

799
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: of it.

800
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So she's she's working on a book which I

801
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 4: think like will be really incredible, and I'm really excited

802
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 4: for her and that and just like any other opportunities

803
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 4: that she has to kind of talk about, Alexis like

804
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 4: she's you know, done some done some TV appearances and

805
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 4: think she did tammern Hall, which was really so cool.

806
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,240
Speaker 4: So she's had some really it's I think the reception

807
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 4: has been really positive.

808
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 3: Again, like when you're when you're just screaming into.

809
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 4: The void about something for so long to then have

810
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 4: millions of people listen and you is really powerful, Like yeah,

811
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 4: it's I mean, obviously the ultimate pin is that Dennis

812
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 4: is in jail and you know, never going to get out.

813
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 4: But I think also the ability to just be heard

814
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 4: and have people understand and not judge and not be

815
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: like you're evil because you gave up your kid, Like, no,

816
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 4: she this is a very human, very relatable story.

817
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 2: It most certainly is.

818
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 4: I always felt that way, and I always told Kathy

819
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 4: I didn't, you know, reassure them a lot of like

820
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 4: people are going to really resonate when she actually worried.

821
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: I mean I not for one second watching that, I

822
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: just saw her as a hero. From the second the

823
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: document who started, I was like, I want to know,

824
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: this woman is incredible.

825
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 4: She's very she's very steadfast. No, she's very I mean

826
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 4: I think she was like people will think whatever they think,

827
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 4: but like she's been confident. I mean that's the thing.

828
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 4: Like she was posting this stuff on Facebook. Every people

829
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 4: were calling her crazy and she was like, I'm not crazy.

830
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 4: I'm right, You're going to see and so that attitude

831
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 4: is who Kathy is.

832
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 3: That really like?

833
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 4: And I'm just yeah, I'm really happy that everyone has

834
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 4: responded so positively to the story in her strang story.

835
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: Listen, you've done some really good work, good for good

836
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 1: work just in the world, and not everyone is completely

837
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: hateful like me and just wants to see revenge. A

838
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: lot of people will look at this and see the humanity.

839
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: And I saw a lot of humanity. And I shouldn't

840
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: say that, but I just I think of that.

841
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 4: Man, I want people to have strong reactions, Like I said, Like,

842
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 4: my job is to present all of the information in

843
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,320
Speaker 4: a way that's compelling and moves people.

844
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,760
Speaker 3: That's why I do this work.

845
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 2: You know, that's what you do.

846
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like, I come from a background of doing a

847
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 4: lot of different types of writing and content, and you know,

848
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: it got to a point where it's like, if I

849
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 4: can if I can tell a story that millions of

850
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 4: people are going to like watch and care about, what

851
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 4: do you.

852
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: Want to say?

853
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 4: And so to be able to say something matters and

854
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 4: can help people like Kathy and Carl and Netta.

855
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the strongest of a reaction as I have,

856
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: Like my strongest reaction is to Kathy. Yeah, right, I

857
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: guess I have all that anger and I have all

858
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 1: that you know. I want this, I want Alexis to

859
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: be vindicated. But also watching Kathy was so inspiring. And Karl,

860
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: by the way, we didn't really talk a lot about him,

861
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: but what an incredible guy. But anyway, yes, let me

862
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: just ask quickly, what which tell me one more of

863
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: your tell me another piece of your work that I

864
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: can watch.

865
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 4: I did the weigh Down God Greed in the Cult

866
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,839
Speaker 4: of Gwen Chamblin on HBO Max, and then I did

867
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 4: I also did Bad Influence on Netflix, which is about

868
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 4: Piper rockw and her mom.

869
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, good, thank you, so I'll be busy.

870
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

871
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: Oh it's absolutely my pleasure. Please come back. Thank you

872
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: so much.

873
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 3: Good, thank you, well done by Thank you