Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Speaker 2: Our colleague Nol is on an adventure but will be
Speaker 2: returning shortly.
Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
Speaker 3: are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
Speaker 3: they don't want you to know. There is a civil
Speaker 3: war happening right now as we record.
Speaker 2: This evening in the United.
Speaker 3: States, well not yet as we record, but depending on
Speaker 3: when you listen to this episode or a possible series
Speaker 3: of episodes, your mileage may vary. There's a fascinating case,
Speaker 3: in a heartbreaking case of civil war that's been going
Speaker 3: on since twenty twenty or so out in Me and.
Speaker 2: Mar oh yes, formerly Burma if you even if you
Speaker 2: check it out on Google Maps, it says me and
Speaker 2: Mar and then like Burma. Also. Yeah. We learned about
Speaker 2: this a little while back. I think it was sometime
Speaker 2: in August of this year. We learned about it from
Speaker 2: a listener who called themselves surf Rider, and we still
Speaker 2: are unsure if it's writ er.
Speaker 3: Or rider, but either way, surf writer, thank you again.
Speaker 3: We said we would follow up with an episode on
Speaker 3: this and Matt, could you tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: more about what surfrider or writer was talking about.
Speaker 2: Surf Wright was specifically talking about criminal organizations that were
Speaker 2: functioning on the border of Me and Mar, like basically
Speaker 2: all the way all around the border of Me and Mar,
Speaker 2: but specifically around one river. I think you say moa
Speaker 2: river MOEI And it's basically apartment complexes, eat love, prey,
Speaker 2: places where it's self contained. Basically, if you live in
Speaker 2: one of these places, you just stay there. And out
Speaker 2: of these places, there's a lot of organized crime and
Speaker 2: human trafficking where people are basically shipped in to function
Speaker 2: there as cogs in a big old I guess scam.
Speaker 3: Chain scam, slave farms. Yeah, we've explored. You know, mean
Speaker 3: Mar is familiar to a lot of people aka Burma,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot more that escapes the attention of
Speaker 3: the West. It's a story of crime, conspiracy, and chaos
Speaker 3: all spiraling out of control along the border of Myanmar
Speaker 3: and much of the rest of the world seems to
Speaker 3: will ignore the growing chaos. The world collectively looked at
Speaker 3: the problem just like someone who sees a vagrant asking
Speaker 3: for change at a traffic light. They made a passing
Speaker 3: glance at me, Ammar, and they said, I have other
Speaker 3: stuff to do. Well, guess what, folks, we don't. That's
Speaker 3: our cold open.
Speaker 2: Our Friday is fully open. Here we go.
Speaker 3: Here are the facts. Okay, so it's interesting. We've been,
Speaker 3: arguably Matt going through kind of a phase in exploring
Speaker 3: mysteries and conspiracies in this region of the world, in
Speaker 3: Southeast Asia. Wasn't too long ago that we talked about
Speaker 3: the plane of jars, and thank you to our conspiracy
Speaker 3: realist who wrote in to correct us and say, actually,
Speaker 3: these don't look like cauldrons or jars, these look like crocs.
Speaker 3: See ours? Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, I saw some pictures.
Speaker 3: You wrote a fantastic matter of fact, let's pull up
Speaker 3: the name. You wrote such a fantastic letter to us.
Speaker 3: Held off on answering it because.
Speaker 2: We are saying crock pots like the thing my mom
Speaker 2: used to make pot roast in Yes, okay, yeah, well,
Speaker 2: what are we saying that just crocs. I don't know.
Speaker 2: Is that a brand name.
Speaker 3: I'm unsure, like that time we got in trouble for
Speaker 3: saying Frisbee instead of I just know.
Speaker 2: Do you plug them in? They're electric and they make
Speaker 2: potatoes real nice and good.
Speaker 3: I love it. I love I have an emotional you have,
Speaker 3: you know how I like? I have three emotions a
Speaker 3: year or something. One of those is affection for my crockpot. Yeah,
Speaker 3: which is sorry, Grandma.
Speaker 2: Just cook a little and slow baby.
Speaker 3: That is caddyewampus. By the way, what is caddy wanting?
Speaker 3: Caddywampus is the wrote oh about the difference between cauldrons, jars,
Speaker 3: and crocs, to which we say caddy. That's a croc.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a krak of caddywamp as vases.
Speaker 3: Yes, there we go, they're vases. So the plane of
Speaker 3: jars and Laos the mystery has not been solved. Myanmar, though.
Speaker 3: If you've looked at the map from our previous exploration
Speaker 3: of Laos, you'll see that Myanmar parentheses Burma is just
Speaker 3: to the west of Laos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it borders a ton of countries. The border
Speaker 2: that it shares with Laos is fairly small compared to
Speaker 2: like Thailand, which is right south.
Speaker 3: The whole peninsula base right split in half exactly.
Speaker 2: But then you've also got China, what Bangladesh? And aren't
Speaker 2: there is there more? Is it just mostly India? India too?
Speaker 3: Gosh?
Speaker 2: So they are they? Well, that's why, that's why this
Speaker 2: episode is so complicated and interesting and potentially impactful, because
Speaker 2: that the land that makes up me and mar potentially
Speaker 2: has influence on so many other countries.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent And well said. You know, some conspiracy
Speaker 3: realist of a certain age may recall when this country
Speaker 3: changed its name, because it didn't change its name to
Speaker 3: Myanmar until nineteen eighty nine. Wow. Yeah, most famously when
Speaker 3: Marvel Comics published a new edition of their encyclopedia.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I remember it.
Speaker 3: That's the other thing that happened. Those are the two
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I remember when I was six years old
Speaker 2: and looked at at the old TV and they said
Speaker 2: Burma is now Myanmar, and I was like, I'll remember
Speaker 2: this for the rest of my life.
Speaker 3: And they might be giants later really missed the ball
Speaker 3: on that one, didn't They too much focus on Turkey?
Speaker 3: But okay, names aside, people have been living in this
Speaker 3: area since far before we started calling it what we
Speaker 3: call it today. The first human settlers appeared on this
Speaker 3: central plaine because there are plains and there are hills,
Speaker 3: and the people are often called like the plains people
Speaker 3: or the hill people. The first humans were there eleven
Speaker 3: thousand years ago. And I love what you brought up there,
Speaker 3: Matt about it's the luck of the draw in the
Speaker 3: geography here. It's been a nexus point for all kinds
Speaker 3: of exchanges. I mean, it's sandwiched in between these two
Speaker 3: homes to ancient civilizations India and China. They're always trying
Speaker 3: to spend, like send stuff to each other, yes, sometimes
Speaker 3: send wars to each.
Speaker 2: Other sometimes and expand their borders, but often they're attempting
Speaker 2: to trade because in order to fight wars and other
Speaker 2: parts of the world, you have to have a significant
Speaker 2: amount of money coming in, usually via trade. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: want to just quickly talk about that eleven thousand years number, because,
Speaker 2: like we've talked about on the show numerous times, that
Speaker 2: is the best evidence we have right now of human
Speaker 2: beings living in that area, right so, and we are
Speaker 2: discovering year over year that human beings have been around
Speaker 2: doing stuff for way longer than we even think or expected.
Speaker 3: It changes every year, just like the nomination for world's
Speaker 3: oldest person, that's the world record with the most turnover.
Speaker 3: I think that's a really good point, Matt, because when
Speaker 3: we say whenever we say evidence indicates humans, we're in
Speaker 3: so and so or doing so and so by x
Speaker 3: amount of time, it means that's when we found physical evidence. Yes,
Speaker 3: and the world is hungry, especially this part of the world.
Speaker 3: It eats the creations of man, including human remains so hungry,
Speaker 3: so so famished. Tune into our later episode, by the way,
Speaker 3: on the future of poop. Just always be closing, always
Speaker 3: be closing, you know it is.
Speaker 2: It's the type of side hustle I never expected. But
Speaker 2: it is like a gift once you realize that you
Speaker 2: can sell your own poop if you're diligent enough. Yes,
Speaker 2: or Dylan Genta enough. Oh gosh, he could sell his
Speaker 2: poop right now, like today, I will.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we're going to leave this in. I
Speaker 3: would I'm not saying one hundred percent sold, but I
Speaker 3: would love to read some literature and hear the pitch.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah yeah. And also just a quick shout out
Speaker 3: to Dylan. We could leave this part at Dylan is
Speaker 3: the guy who taught me that you can eat cheetos
Speaker 3: with chopsticks. What to keep your fingers clean.
Speaker 2: That seems like a lot of work but also kind
Speaker 2: of fun.
Speaker 3: So everybody's got a weird side hustle. Anyway, it's our segue,
Speaker 3: and we're going to talk about some dangerous side hustles
Speaker 3: for now. What you need to know is, once upon
Speaker 3: a time, this place that we call mean Mar today,
Speaker 3: it had a massive reputation for surrounding countries. Records from
Speaker 3: China show that from the first century BCE to the
Speaker 3: ninth century Common era there was something called the Pew
Speaker 3: Government Pyu and we're not native speakers, so partner pronunciation.
Speaker 3: This government. They didn't have prisons, they didn't have slaves,
Speaker 3: they had quote no fetters or chains. And for the
Speaker 3: rare criminals who got in trouble with this benevolent government,
Speaker 3: the only punishment was quote a few strokes of a whip,
Speaker 3: which surely still hurt.
Speaker 2: Like yeah, dickens, but well, I mean strokes of a whip
Speaker 2: that would that's like tearing flesh right for sure, and
Speaker 2: it's way in my mind, it's way worse than maybe
Speaker 2: some of at least the rumors and then actual policies
Speaker 2: in Singapore of the caning that we heard about a
Speaker 2: long time ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a different thing too. But caning's very damaging.
Speaker 2: Yes, not good, but not the same as the velocity
Speaker 2: that a whip attains when it.
Speaker 3: Not the same laceration potential.
Speaker 2: That's a good way to put it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. And also it depends
Speaker 3: where you hit people. Like the old maritime punishment or
Speaker 3: torture and was also used on enslaved people is bastinado when.
Speaker 2: They would put you in like a box of scorpions. No, no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: that's just hook.
Speaker 3: Okay, I think that's just hook. But it is a
Speaker 3: great idea, very fear factor. No, that's where they beat
Speaker 3: the bottom of the feet. Oh yeah, because it hurts
Speaker 3: a lot and it prevents you from it lowers your mobility. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's evilly well thought out. We're going to see some
Speaker 3: of that anyway. We need to know this. Despite mean
Speaker 3: Mar's modern day reputation, earned or unearned, it had a
Speaker 3: much longer reputation in the past, being a very peaceful place.
Speaker 3: It was pretty extraordinary both back then and in the
Speaker 3: modern day. But it's no longer the case because Matt,
Speaker 3: like we said, with an exus point where you can
Speaker 3: be a facilitator of cultural exchange, you also have a
Speaker 3: lot of people hungry for your real estate.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. And you essentially cross a river and
Speaker 2: then you're in me and Mar from any you know,
Speaker 2: any direction, unless you're coming in from the Bay of Bengal. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're just you're strolling through the place. And empires surely did.
Speaker 2: Some of them just came through, you know, like rolled
Speaker 2: through and caused some damage and some chaos. Others stuck around,
Speaker 2: like I believe it was it was Japan that stuck
Speaker 2: around for quite a while and officially occupied the place.
Speaker 2: But you also had companies that were de facto countries,
Speaker 2: like the British what was it, the British East India Company. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: not great. Who else is in there? Oh, mongol the
Speaker 2: Mongolian invasions that occurred, and not just one. There's a
Speaker 2: whole bunch of conflict that's been going on there for
Speaker 2: a long time. It's another one of those places where
Speaker 2: I've never had Me and Mar specific cuisine or like Burmese,
Speaker 2: but I imagine it's an They're one of those places
Speaker 2: in the world where there's so many different influences from
Speaker 2: all of the strife, but also people who get displaced
Speaker 2: there and then stay there. I would love to see whatever.
Speaker 2: Whatever the cuisine, I don't know what you would call it,
Speaker 2: but whatever the Me and Mark cuisine is, I want
Speaker 2: to try.
Speaker 3: They usually call it Burmese cuisine. Yeah, I've I don't.
Speaker 3: Our best bet for you and Dylan and myself would
Speaker 3: be to go to Beauford Highway and just roll the dice,
Speaker 3: which I love doing.
Speaker 2: Just ask around, just ask around.
Speaker 3: Be cool. But I have tried it in other parts
Speaker 3: of the world and you nailed it because it's a
Speaker 3: It's almost like Peruvian cuisine in that there are so
Speaker 3: many other influences that they're great curries. I know you
Speaker 3: love a curry.
Speaker 2: Yeah so.
Speaker 3: And I also know that every time we talk about
Speaker 3: a far flung country, we have to talk about the food.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean it's.
Speaker 3: Important, man. And also I think maybe both of us
Speaker 3: skipped breakfast. I know, but we know for sure that
Speaker 3: the British East India Company famously asks, well, just walk
Speaker 3: out the street for that one. But we also know
Speaker 3: that to your point, mat after amid Japanese occupation, the
Speaker 3: country we now call Mianmar declared its independence in nineteen
Speaker 3: forty seven with the Burma Independence Act of nineteen forty seven.
Speaker 3: Not the most creative name, but an awesome idea. We're
Speaker 3: all about independence. Problem is when a country moves out
Speaker 3: of occupation or colonialism and becomes independent, it is also
Speaker 3: at one of the most vulnerable periods in its history.
Speaker 3: The time after immediate independence is very, very dicey.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean, well, it's it's such a difficult thing
Speaker 2: to do. You're trying to establish what the government looks
Speaker 2: like and how it functions right in this independent nation.
Speaker 2: You also need a strong enough military to defend that
Speaker 2: nation and or gain independence from whoever you know is
Speaker 2: occupying your nation that you want to build. But then
Speaker 2: you've got to be really careful with that military, make
Speaker 2: sure it's not too powerful and it doesn't want to
Speaker 2: just take the reins and decide what happens or doesn't
Speaker 2: happen in your new country.
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, that is the Oh, you nailed it. That
Speaker 3: is one of the trickiest parts, especially of any kind
Speaker 3: of representative democracy, any kind of you know, even constitutional monarchy,
Speaker 3: where there is some kind of voice for the people,
Speaker 3: it has to exist in conjunction with the military. And
Speaker 3: that's why so many constitutions separate what the military can
Speaker 3: and cannot do with civilians. And that's also why militaries
Speaker 3: have such a reputation for being compromised, especially in post
Speaker 3: colonial countries. Cough Wagner, cough cough Africa, cough cough everywhere.
Speaker 3: Right now side gigs, we were talking about you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, some people sell poop, other people sell nations.
Speaker 2: Hi, I specialize in private special operations, I mean party,
Speaker 2: I mean gigs.
Speaker 3: I'm a tourist, I'm a consultant. I would love to
Speaker 3: have a conversation with the colonel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's cool, it's cool. We're just totally I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna go on the roof or in the basement with
Speaker 2: this suitcase. Yeah, and everything's cool. But it really is
Speaker 2: a it's a it's a messed up thing that everybody
Speaker 2: has to do because in the end, it's ideas, and
Speaker 2: when you're forming a new government, especially you know, in
Speaker 2: revolt of some existing thing, you got to make sure
Speaker 2: everybody's on the same page. And how in the heck,
Speaker 2: do you get everybody on the same page. It's not possible.
Speaker 2: Some people are going to think differently than whoever the
Speaker 2: founders are right, and if they've got weapons and know how,
Speaker 2: then you could be in trouble.
Speaker 3: And often the so called agents of revolution just want
Speaker 3: to have the same terrible operation, the same horrific machine,
Speaker 3: but they want to be the one at the lever
Speaker 3: which makes it now good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there sure is. There are a lot of goods
Speaker 2: going through this specific port, on this specific border. It
Speaker 2: should sure would be nice if I was the one,
Speaker 2: you know, taking the bribes every time the illegal goods
Speaker 2: went across.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what people in the world of nation states.
Speaker 3: That's often what people mean when they say they solved
Speaker 3: a problem. They mean now they are profiting from the
Speaker 3: earlier problem, because that's what they were solving for anyway.
Speaker 3: So what we're saying is it makes sense. Unfortunately that,
Speaker 3: like so many other countries in the region, modern day
Speaker 3: Meanmar has been best with its own struggles inner turmoil,
Speaker 3: foreign intervention continues, government upheavals violence, it's continuing unrest and
Speaker 3: conflict to this day. And that's because just less than
Speaker 3: two decades after independence, it's nineteen sixty seven and the
Speaker 3: military does a coup d'ta. Yeah, they just come in.
Speaker 3: Perhaps it was their idea, but maybe maybe.
Speaker 2: But again, there's so much potential influence. Yeah, yeah, there's
Speaker 2: so much potential influence. And we do have to say
Speaker 2: mentioned it earlier, specifically influenced from India and China, because
Speaker 2: they are the two most populous countries in the world
Speaker 2: and they're also two of the most powerful. In India
Speaker 2: is definitely, I mean, it's up there, don't I don't
Speaker 2: know if you can say the number four most powerful
Speaker 2: or whatever. But India has a lot of strength, a
Speaker 2: lot of military mind might in a lot of technology.
Speaker 2: China has the same. So it you can imagine even
Speaker 2: back in sixty seven, that influence there.
Speaker 3: Is possible, incredibly strong. And let's not forget that there
Speaker 3: is still at that point, there are still post colonial
Speaker 3: forces from the game that are involved. There's still you know,
Speaker 3: like shout out to BRIDGERD. Kipling's Kim, you know, the
Speaker 3: Brits are still there in some capacity, and of course
Speaker 3: sixty seven you've got French Indo, China, you've got the
Speaker 3: US definitely not being there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the US was not a part of any of that.
Speaker 2: Uh uh no, no, nor was the Soviet Union in
Speaker 2: any way.
Speaker 3: Shame on you for these unfounded allegations. But yeah, for
Speaker 3: one reason or another, this military Coupjata. We're not oversimple.
Speaker 3: We don't want to oversimplify a lot led to it.
Speaker 3: We do clearly suspect for an intervention of some sort,
Speaker 3: the military dictatorship ends up ruling more or less the
Speaker 3: same up to now, up to twenty twenty four, is
Speaker 3: we record this spoiler, they're super duper weird. I'm just
Speaker 3: an observation. They're very into astrology. Oh yeah, yeah to
Speaker 3: Burmese astrology. It's the reason they moved the capitol.
Speaker 2: That's amazing on it. I have not encountered that in
Speaker 2: any of the research today. I'm gonna look into that
Speaker 2: after this, and we all should, because that is fascinating.
Speaker 2: That's a whole episode I want to know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but we should totally do that, and before we
Speaker 3: uh what do you call it? Before we seem as
Speaker 3: though we are casting aspersion here, Let's also keep in
Speaker 3: mind that former US presidents have had court astrologers, Oh yeah,
Speaker 3: which is basically a magician.
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's exciting.
Speaker 3: At that point, and we're not saying there's anything wrong
Speaker 3: with astrology, western or other derivations.
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, if I ever become president, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: have like a court Duncan Trussell who's just there to
Speaker 2: be like, we got a finger moouth of this man.
Speaker 2: And I'll be like, oh, Duncan, you're.
Speaker 3: Right, I'm gonna just have a straight up court magician.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, no, wait, We'll have a court magician like
Speaker 3: a Copperfield is this your card kind of guy? And
Speaker 3: then we'll have a court sorcerer and it'll have to
Speaker 3: be the weirdest person we could find.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get officially a new position
Speaker 2: in the West Wing called the West Wing Warlock. And
Speaker 2: I love it. And he he just haunts the place.
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, yeah, I love it. I love it. Wesley
Speaker 3: West Wing Warlock. Let's hope his name's Wesley.
Speaker 2: We just call him w.
Speaker 3: Didn't some guy already get that nick? I think so, well,
Speaker 3: we'll cast him then if he's already got the nickname, he's.
Speaker 2: Just he's just in this Oh, he's in his sanctum
Speaker 2: in the West Wing, just painting.
Speaker 3: Just painting weirdly intimate pictures of himself. Oh I love
Speaker 3: it in the top. That's that's the real magic. It's
Speaker 3: the paintings we made along the way.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I don't know how we got here, and
Speaker 2: it's my fault.
Speaker 3: And here you know, we're gonna magic it back because
Speaker 3: look as crazy and I kind of derail this on that,
Speaker 3: as crazy as it sounds. Yes, the leadership of Myanmar
Speaker 3: is what we call a military junta. There aren't really elections.
Speaker 3: Every time there is an election and the people have
Speaker 3: spoken or you know, the upper middle class or whatever
Speaker 3: is spoken, then boom, boom boom, there's another coup, a
Speaker 3: cuckoo coup, right, and this happens again and again. They
Speaker 3: crush opposition. In the case of the twenty twenty general election,
Speaker 3: it didn't go their way. They pointed Anjong Sansuki, who
Speaker 3: is a world famous activist, and when the election didn't
Speaker 3: go their way, the military, known as the Tatma dal H,
Speaker 3: staged another coup. And part of the turmoil we're in now,
Speaker 3: this civil war that begins in the wake of this
Speaker 3: other coup, is because of the point we raised earlier.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of ethnic diversity. This is not this
Speaker 3: is not near as homogeneous a place as say Norway
Speaker 3: or Japan.
Speaker 2: No, No, it's weird to talk about this, but fifty
Speaker 2: six percent are Burmese, which is like, I was born here,
Speaker 2: I grew up here, I know everything here, I speak
Speaker 2: the language I am a I am.
Speaker 3: Burmese, similarly like Han Chinese exactly.
Speaker 2: But then the rest, I mean, the rest is just
Speaker 2: split up between all of these different cultures that have
Speaker 2: gone through the area.
Speaker 3: The Karen, the San.
Speaker 2: The Karen's a big deal.
Speaker 3: The Karen is a huge deal.
Speaker 2: And it's we're not being silly about that.
Speaker 3: We're being kind of silly.
Speaker 2: But that's a real that's a real thing.
Speaker 3: It is a real thing.
Speaker 2: A bunch of the issues that have been happening recently
Speaker 2: are about the Karen.
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent. There's also a conflict between other groups,
Speaker 3: the Shan, the Laou, and the Karen. There are multiple
Speaker 3: moves for secession, for autonomy, multiple contradictory religious or ideological goals.
Speaker 3: It's it's a huge stew right just even unto the language.
Speaker 3: The official language is Burmese, but there are tons of
Speaker 3: indigenous languages and they're mutually unintelligible. In some cases. Diversity
Speaker 3: is always a huge benefit to a country over time,
Speaker 3: but mismanaged internal conflicts in diversity can lead to chaos,
Speaker 3: which is why Meammar has been in that civil war.
Speaker 3: Even the civil war is messy. All right, you got
Speaker 3: the military on one.
Speaker 2: Side, Okay, that's easy.
Speaker 3: They're not the official government, but they do run everything.
Speaker 3: And then you've got the National Unity Government. Wait a second,
Speaker 3: nug Yes, they're the government in exile.
Speaker 2: Okay, so they don't.
Speaker 3: Run the thing. But when the UN has their little parties,
Speaker 3: these are the folks who show up.
Speaker 2: That's so funny.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I should say Sessions. I don't think the
Speaker 3: UN is hitting people up on the group chat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, got a party, be there promptly at eight point fifteen.
Speaker 3: Hit them with an LMAO to take the sting off, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm learning how to text.
Speaker 2: But that is interesting though, that there's a there's an
Speaker 2: official recognized government that runs the show as far as
Speaker 2: the rest of the world is concerned. But then in
Speaker 2: all actuality, it's essentially the military slash official other official government,
Speaker 2: not the Unity government, the other one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's kind of like in Somalia. Right, because warlords
Speaker 3: run huge regions of the area, but there is a
Speaker 3: government in exile, largely in exile that this is an
Speaker 3: unfortunate thing that happens. But those aren't the only two
Speaker 3: sides of the civil war. There is also a monopoly
Speaker 3: of rebel groups right, often with indigenous roots to a
Speaker 3: particular ethnicity or people's And.
Speaker 2: That's like the Karen group we're talking about, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Sorry you're still going up, please continue. I was just
Speaker 2: interjecting so that in the way my mind made that connection,
Speaker 2: I wanted other people to make that.
Speaker 3: Yes, the Karen. Tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 3: Karen while we're here.
Speaker 2: Uh oh, sorry is it in here? Because I don't
Speaker 2: know if I could tell fully about it. I read
Speaker 2: about it though.
Speaker 3: We know it's spelled like the name Karen. Has nothing
Speaker 3: to do with the memes except in our heads and
Speaker 3: in our hearts.
Speaker 2: That is correct. Here we go. This is I'm gonna
Speaker 2: re from a story here from Irrawadi from February twenty eighth,
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, so a while ago. Yeah, and this
Speaker 2: goes back to the original stuff we were looking at
Speaker 2: when we went to b and mar In that listener
Speaker 2: mail episode. But this was about Karen National Union or
Speaker 2: the kN U, and specifically it was about their involvement
Speaker 2: in a quote Chinese project in Mirawadi. This is one
Speaker 2: particular city that where it's like a border city that
Speaker 2: we've talked about there there connects to Thailand and it's
Speaker 2: all about that place KK Park, which was one of
Speaker 2: those suburban hubs where all that crime was happening. Sure,
Speaker 2: but I don't know that I can fully tell you
Speaker 2: about this Karen National Union or the militaries that they control.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that that can be tough because the situation
Speaker 3: is somewhat fluid to be quite honest. But the Karen
Speaker 3: are what are called Taibeto Burmo people or Burman people,
Speaker 3: so have roots in Burma in Tibet and they're they're
Speaker 3: an ethno linguistic group who are about they're pretty small,
Speaker 3: they're about six point six y nine nice percent of
Speaker 3: the population. A lot of people from this group have
Speaker 3: moved into Thailand, got it through the notoriously porous Thai
Speaker 3: Burmese or memr border anyway. So there's this crazy complicated
Speaker 3: civil war. It's absolutely terrible for the civilians. We've got
Speaker 3: one official government that is in exile. We've got a
Speaker 3: military junta, We've got a ton of other folks in between,
Speaker 3: secessionist groups, GETTIA fighters, and then of course I'm just
Speaker 3: pretty heinous, straight up criminals. Oh yeah, who are just
Speaker 3: there the way that vultures go to a charnel pit.
Speaker 2: Yes, and from various countries that are just illegally in
Speaker 2: the country and just do their thing because for some
Speaker 2: reason they feel like they can get away with it,
Speaker 2: and perhaps they can get away with it, maybe a
Speaker 2: little more easily than they could if they were on
Speaker 2: their home turf.
Speaker 3: Yeah. As of March twenty twenty three, the United Nations
Speaker 3: estimated that post February twenty twenty one COUPS, seventeen point
Speaker 3: six million people in Mianmar required humanitarian assistance, one point
Speaker 3: six million were internally displaced, run out of their homes
Speaker 3: and their towns, and over fifty five thousand civilian buildings
Speaker 3: had been destroyed. Now, how many refugees are there and
Speaker 3: other adjacent countries, we simply do not know.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a bit of a program within
Speaker 2: the US to bring in ME and R refugees, which is,
Speaker 2: at least from what I'm reading, is looking to be
Speaker 2: shut down by the current administration or the incoming administration,
Speaker 2: So it'll be interesting to see what happens there.
Speaker 3: And if you want to visit Meanmar, bad news. All
Speaker 3: travelers are warned to stay away, even if you are
Speaker 3: a refugee or if you've relocated and you're part of
Speaker 3: the diaspora, your nation state is probably going to warn
Speaker 3: you not to go there, especially the major cities, the
Speaker 3: new capital. The clashes between the government and exile and
Speaker 3: the hunta and all these other opportunistic forces mean that
Speaker 3: multiple groups consider themselves the rule of law in the country,
Speaker 3: the state power and the only real operative definition of
Speaker 3: state is the monopoly over violence, So multiple actors feel
Speaker 3: they have a monopoly over violence. You step out of
Speaker 3: line one time and one in the wrong person's opinion,
Speaker 3: you are in jail and no one's going to help you.
Speaker 3: Nowhere is the chaos more visible than along those borders Bangladesh,
Speaker 3: in China, allows Thailand. It seems to be trouble at
Speaker 3: every single international line. So what is happening and why?
Speaker 2: We'll get into it right after a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, all right, before we dive
Speaker 3: into even deeper conspiracies here, Matt, I propose we take
Speaker 3: a look at the border country by country.
Speaker 2: Ooh, let's do this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's a spoiler. It's not a super pleasant story, folks.
Speaker 3: If we start with Bangladesh, which is also the title
Speaker 3: of a great song by our friend Himes and your
Speaker 3: old Drug. But if you start with Bangladesh, let's go
Speaker 3: to the Diplomat. They have a great article about this
Speaker 3: where they point out that Bangladesh is having problems with
Speaker 3: the border guard police on the Meanmar side illegally crossing
Speaker 3: the border and getting in fights with the border guards
Speaker 3: from Bangladesh the Myanmar forces. Because there's no single authority
Speaker 3: who decides what is or isn't legal, they're very difficult
Speaker 3: to negotiate with. So Bangladesh is facing continual incursions, mortar attacks,
Speaker 3: gunships are coming in, and then they go back to
Speaker 3: who they thought was the authority, Meanmar, and then they
Speaker 3: just keep passing the buck. Oh that's a different warlord.
Speaker 3: Oh you're looking for the you know, the Karens or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a weird situation just to have a
Speaker 2: hole like in this case, like one hundred people coming
Speaker 2: across a border from ME and MAR saying hey, it's
Speaker 2: not good over there. Help and then they're like, uh,
Speaker 2: y'all can't really trust you here. But then also there's
Speaker 2: mortars coming from the ME and R side, right, you're
Speaker 2: just like.
Speaker 3: Well, also, yet we have to keep in mind those
Speaker 3: the border guards from Myanmar who are incurring into Bangladeshi territory.
Speaker 3: They're often chasing and attempting to kill ethnic minorities from Myanmar,
Speaker 3: the Rohinga in particular.
Speaker 2: Who are perhaps escaping situations on that side.
Speaker 3: Of the world straight up refugees. These are not tourists,
Speaker 3: These are not merks, These are not consultants. These are
Speaker 3: innocent people who are running for their lives. Quite literally.
Speaker 3: The government of Myanmar or the ruling junta, has expelled
Speaker 3: the ethnic Rohinga into Bangladeshi territory actively since nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 3: and just since August of twenty seventeen, there have been
Speaker 3: more than one point three million Rohinga refugees stuck in Bangladesh.
Speaker 3: They have nowhere to go. It's not just that they
Speaker 3: feel unsafe back home. It's that even when they try
Speaker 3: their home, government won't let them men yeah, and will
Speaker 3: attack them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Bangladesh itself as a country has had so
Speaker 2: many problems over the last twenty years that I've been
Speaker 2: paying attention at least. And I've known several people from
Speaker 2: that country who you know, openly talk about the issues
Speaker 2: of the country they love and wish they could go back,
Speaker 2: even to Bangladesh, but they just can't. It's just so,
Speaker 2: it just makes me really sad, especially for all these
Speaker 2: people who are displaced, and it is God, it makes
Speaker 2: me thankful and hopeful for countries that do have robust
Speaker 2: programs to bring in refugees. Yes, but I think it's
Speaker 2: weird because you also have to be aware that those
Speaker 2: those kinds of programs do have major issues.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's so. It's so interesting just how complex any
Speaker 2: one little issue is that we're dealing with here in
Speaker 2: me and.
Speaker 3: Mar Yeah, we'll also think, you know, things like the
Speaker 3: flaws inherent and lot of systems for Hey, you're a refugee,
Speaker 3: may the odds be in your favor? That is fed up, Yes,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So this is and thank
Speaker 3: you for the beep there, Dylan. We feel strongly about
Speaker 3: this because the rest of the world has done very
Speaker 3: little to stop the ongoing violence at this specific border
Speaker 3: in Bangladesh, but also in me and Mar and the
Speaker 3: region throughout the United Nations. The rest of the planet
Speaker 3: seemed distracted by other disasters, you know, Ukraine, climate change
Speaker 3: driven natural disasters, the growing instability inside Myanmar and along
Speaker 3: that border in particular.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Here's the thing. When you ignore a problem, Yeah, the
Speaker 3: problem remains unsolved, but the problem also gathers momentum. You
Speaker 3: pay interest on the things that you ignore, right, and
Speaker 3: the interest is adding up to the principle here, which
Speaker 3: is that, depending on how things play out, the collapse
Speaker 3: of Miandmark could destabilize the whole region, all of South Asia,
Speaker 3: all of Southeast Asia getting nasty really really quickly. And
Speaker 3: that's something that the government of China, the big dog
Speaker 3: in the area, is very concerned about. And it's probably
Speaker 3: why they support the military also because I think they
Speaker 3: control the military.
Speaker 2: You think China does.
Speaker 3: I think well, I think they heavily influence the military. Again,
Speaker 3: astrology controls the military, but I think China has a
Speaker 3: lot of influence on it.
Speaker 2: Got Yeah, astrology controls all of it and everyone everywhere, right,
Speaker 2: at least if you believe, if you believe.
Speaker 3: That, Uncle g what's your sign?
Speaker 2: It's in the stars. But but I see what you're saying,
Speaker 2: and that is when we say the government there were
Speaker 2: talking about the junta, the one the government that took over.
Speaker 3: Right, not the democratic government in exile.
Speaker 2: The unity that is at the UN Uh huh. Yeah, yeah, we're.
Speaker 3: Not talking about those guys. We're talking, like you said,
Speaker 3: about the military. And for some time now, China has
Speaker 3: been concerned about the stability of its neighbor to the
Speaker 3: south Miami. Yeah, mean Mars buffer state with India, because
Speaker 3: you know, China and India real frenemies and they also
Speaker 3: they need that buffer state. But China also has the
Speaker 3: most control over mem r now and even though it's
Speaker 3: a vassal state, being a vassal state doesn't prevent it
Speaker 3: from bucking against Beijing. They kind of they will go
Speaker 3: their own way if they feel motivated or if the
Speaker 3: stars are right.
Speaker 2: And just for people who are unaware of vassal state
Speaker 2: that it's not saying that China has complete control over them,
Speaker 2: but they do function for a lot of the needs
Speaker 2: of a controlling country in this case China.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. At economically, dependence upon
Speaker 3: China for trade, for instance, financially dependent therefore in many ways.
Speaker 3: So in twenty twenty three, just last year, as we record,
Speaker 3: China called for a ceasefire in mean Mar because a
Speaker 3: group of ethnic fighters sort of Gunni of fighters, captured
Speaker 3: several border crossings between Meanmar and China. And so China
Speaker 3: like a this is a terrible comparison with China, like
Speaker 3: a parent had a sleepover, walked to the door, yelled
Speaker 3: down into the stairs, into the den and said, you
Speaker 3: kids piped down, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And while China was saying, okay, let's have a ceasefire,
Speaker 3: and you guys stopped firing at each other, they also
Speaker 3: kept firing. They conducted live fire drills on the side
Speaker 3: of the frontier, and they did the classic move that
Speaker 3: folks you would do too if you were them. He said,
Speaker 3: just practicing.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we're just practice with drills and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: just a just a drill, guys, we're just testing out
Speaker 2: new tech or old tech, making sure it's still just
Speaker 2: we're doing it right outside. It's like yelling down into
Speaker 2: the basement and then just starting to fire weapons into
Speaker 2: the ceiling. There's nobody there, and there's nothing up there,
Speaker 2: but you can definitely hear the gunshots.
Speaker 3: While continually yelling calm down, down the stairs, everybody calmed down. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the explosions will continue until you, guys mellow out. Is
Speaker 3: kind of what they did. And you can see this
Speaker 3: quoted in state run Chinese media and also, yeah, we
Speaker 3: get it. Any member former current of a military force
Speaker 3: knows that you do have to continually train because otherwise,
Speaker 3: when you're in a real situation, you will have no
Speaker 3: idea what.
Speaker 2: To do exactly. And this is something I've never thought about, Ben,
Speaker 2: Just thinking about the arms that an infantry would have.
Speaker 2: If you leave those arms somewhere in a barracks just
Speaker 2: sitting around for i mean even months. Oh yeah, those
Speaker 2: things aren't going to work right when it's time to
Speaker 2: take them out and use them. So just like this
Speaker 2: thought of not only keeping the troops well oiled, yeah,
Speaker 2: but also but.
Speaker 3: Love them up man, keep them loop.
Speaker 2: But that's what you have. You literally have to do
Speaker 2: that with firearms.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, you do. You have to. You have to
Speaker 3: break down and clean the machine. The maintenance cost is
Speaker 3: a cost and material. It's a cost in time, and
Speaker 3: it's also a cost in human resources, right, because one
Speaker 3: of the reasons the US military is so dangerous is
Speaker 3: not just because of all the cutting edge, evil toys,
Speaker 3: but it's also because you have battle hardened leadership, You
Speaker 3: have experienced troops and officers, and a lot of militaries
Speaker 3: don't really have that nowhere near on that level. You know.
Speaker 3: It's the thing we don't often talk about, but it
Speaker 3: is true.
Speaker 2: Anyway, them oiled, so loop them up.
Speaker 3: So Dylan is loving this. Yeah, yeah, the side of approval.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 3: So as of this summer twenty twenty four, China's military
Speaker 3: is yet again just practicing along the border, just doing
Speaker 3: some drills, you know what I mean. Pay no attention
Speaker 3: to all these troops in the Yunnan province in southwestern China.
Speaker 3: They're playing outside exactly.
Speaker 2: I cannot get the image of the guys from Predator,
Speaker 2: like out of my head's all in the jungle, so
Speaker 2: sweaty's no shirts?
Speaker 3: Oh my god? Yeah, Like, what is it? What's going on?
Speaker 3: What do you see? It's I love this scene to
Speaker 3: wear spoilers by the way for Predator, where in former
Speaker 3: Governor Schwarzgnegger decides that he has to you know, the mud,
Speaker 3: the mud on the chest.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, man, you gotta get cold. Can't let him
Speaker 2: see because the hot, hot oiled chest.
Speaker 3: And it's not like this alien can't switch to ultraviolet whatever.
Speaker 3: But also it reminded me of Bugs Bunny watching old
Speaker 3: Bugs Bunny cartoons back in the day. I realized, and
Speaker 3: there is a non judgmental statement, there's an observation. I
Speaker 3: realized that a lot of his plans and schemes unnecessarily
Speaker 3: involved him putting on makeup and address interesting, like, he
Speaker 3: really went out of his way for that part of
Speaker 3: the scheme, you know what I mean? And so Arnold
Speaker 3: our question for you, with all due respect, did you
Speaker 3: really have to smear mud on yourself? And you know,
Speaker 3: I think he did, snude, I think he did. Yeah,
Speaker 3: But why if you felt like he had to do it,
Speaker 3: I think you would have done it without the alien,
Speaker 3: you think so. I think the jungle just gets to you.
Speaker 2: Man, I get it. I get it. And those were
Speaker 2: some huge weapons they had out there, and that probably
Speaker 2: gets hot firing off. You know, just think about all
Speaker 2: the rounds. It's not it's it's warm when you're firing
Speaker 2: an automatic weapon.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah. It's also also the point about the jungle
Speaker 3: is is quite salient because we know that it Earth's
Speaker 3: biomes can absolutely like eat entire cities. It's happened before.
Speaker 2: I love that you're trying to bring this back.
Speaker 3: I don't think I'm trying.
Speaker 2: We just know we just went so far.
Speaker 3: But the jungle is. The jungle is a character in
Speaker 3: the story.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: It's part of why the borders are so difficult to
Speaker 3: control outside of concentrated crossings. It's kind of like the
Speaker 3: parts of this area are like the dairy and Gap,
Speaker 3: which we're gonna do another episode on. But the government
Speaker 3: also of China, even though they say, okay, we're just
Speaker 3: playing outside, we're just practicing, they also make no secret
Speaker 3: that they're actively spinning up and if any belligerent Burmese
Speaker 3: forces make it over the border, they're ready to tango. Yep.
Speaker 2: But China's also thinking about the money too, right there.
Speaker 2: They've been working pretty hard.
Speaker 3: For the money.
Speaker 2: Yes, a lot of the tensions are occurring right along
Speaker 2: the border, as we said right at the top of this,
Speaker 2: because people are still trying to trade in and out
Speaker 2: of me and Mar again to make money, and me
Speaker 2: and Mar's GDP is so reliant on moving goods out
Speaker 2: of me and mar into other places.
Speaker 3: Sure it's official GDP, but also it's actual GDP, which
Speaker 3: are two very different numbers.
Speaker 2: Very true because there is a robust under the table
Speaker 2: gross domestic product what do we call that? Yeah, gross
Speaker 2: domestic residue.
Speaker 3: Gross disreputable product, a something like that. Like China is.
Speaker 3: So they're supporting Hunt and they tried to get They
Speaker 3: tried to do carrot and stick diplomacy, which sometimes works.
Speaker 3: They told the junta, Okay, you know, finger wag, you guys,
Speaker 3: stop killing people. I don't care what the astrologer says.
Speaker 3: You got to stop killing at least the specific people,
Speaker 3: or we're going to cut your trade routes and you
Speaker 3: kind of need the money. They did that, It didn't work.
Speaker 3: The collapse continue, the instability spiraled, and so China has
Speaker 3: reopened some trade routes recently. But you can still cut
Speaker 3: the tension with a knife, just like in India. India
Speaker 3: gave China the cold shoulder they had previously. All right,
Speaker 3: So like in part of the Indian meandmor border, they
Speaker 3: really want to focus on. You'll see something that happens
Speaker 3: a lot in different parts of the world. There's an
Speaker 3: ancient village, and then somebody in the days of the
Speaker 3: ancient empios and the days of colodialism, just through a
Speaker 3: line and said, this is where one country ends, this
Speaker 3: is where another one begins. And it's like an interstate
Speaker 3: rolling straight through your town. So the people who have
Speaker 3: lived there ever since. Technically, you know, some of them
Speaker 3: are in mem are technically some are in India, but
Speaker 3: it's a rural area. They've been living that way forever.
Speaker 3: They don't care. It does not really affect them in
Speaker 3: their day to day, you know, kind of like when
Speaker 3: people live in the upper part of the United States
Speaker 3: and they're right on the border with Canada.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, no, it's exactly.
Speaker 3: I think like, oh, I live in the US or Canada,
Speaker 3: but I work in the other country. You know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess I go through customs. But that's just Robert.
Speaker 3: I see him every morning.
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: Oh, hold the phone, hmmm, I am yeah. This is
Speaker 3: going to be a two part episode, and literally hold
Speaker 3: the phone, because here in the middle of our series
Speaker 3: on the troubled border of Myanmar, we're gonna pause. We'll
Speaker 3: be back later this week. In the meantime, we want
Speaker 3: to hear from you, fellow conspiracy realist.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yes, we are not done with this story
Speaker 2: at all. But hey, maybe you've got some thoughts that
Speaker 2: have been conjured since we began talking about this. Why
Speaker 2: don't you find us on social media? We are conspiracy
Speaker 2: stuff on Facebook and YouTube, which definitely go to YouTube
Speaker 2: check that out. And there's another thing. There's a third
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Speaker 2: with your mouth parts, why not give us a call?
Speaker 3: Yes, literally, hold the phone. As we said, the number
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Speaker 3: Like Mark Twain, we can live off a good one
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