1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb. 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 3: in our series on human uses of metal from the Sky. 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 3: If you haven't heard the first episode yet, you should 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 3: go back and check that one out before you listen 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 3: to this. But in that episode brief recap, we focused 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 3: mostly on a specific artifact from the New Kingdom of Egypt, 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: which was a dagger found wrapped up with the mummy 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: of the pharaohtutan Common, which had a blade made of iron. 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 3: Now that might not sound remarkable, but this was a 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 3: blade made of iron from an era before the large 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 3: scale smelting of iron in Egypt. And the really cool 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: thing about this knife and many other iron artifacts from 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 3: before the regional iron age in Egypt is that they 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: were probably created out of iron that came from a 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 3: meteorite space metal. So we also discuss the history of 19 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: knowledge that meteorites come from space, including the story of 20 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 3: how European scientists came to generally agree on the cosmic 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 3: origin of meteorite rocks only around the beginning of the 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: nineteenth century or so. And then also some interesting evidence 23 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 3: that the ancient Egyptians did actually know that iron meteorites 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 3: came from space, for example, the way they referred to 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: iron as the iron of the sky or the metal 26 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 3: of the sky, and some other linguistices clues in the 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 3: way the glyphs of the Hieroglyphic language are put together. 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 3: And then there are also some other languages like Sumerian, 29 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: which have long had similar associations between iron or certain 30 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: types of iron, and the sky. And so today we're 31 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 3: back to talk about more examples of the use of 32 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: metal from space inhuman artifacts, in human technological history. 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: That's right, And where we're going to go next, We're 34 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: going to get back into the use of iron and 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: meteoric iron in meteorites in Chinese tradition, Chinese history, and 36 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 2: maybe just a little dash of Chinese mythology. I want 37 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: to refer back to a write up on iron that 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: appears in the seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient World 39 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: by Brian and Fagan. With this particular bit by Paul T. Kratick, 40 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: cratic sums up Chinese iron usage by pointing out that 41 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: iron production in China began around the ninth century BCE, 42 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: perhaps introduced from the West, but also just as likely 43 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: an independent invention, and that by the Han period to 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: go to BCE, the Chinese quote incontestably led the world 45 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 2: in iron technology and production. But of course, as with 46 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: these other examples we've been looking at, we do have 47 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: evidence of artifacts created with meteoric iron prior to this. 48 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: Specifically it takes us back to the Sheng dynasty. This 49 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: would have been around fourteen hundred BCE. Now, as we 50 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,359 Speaker 2: previously mentioned, there of course has been some back and 51 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: forth on the testing of various pre Iron age iron artifacts, 52 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 2: and ultimately a lot of that is still going on, 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: and these blades are often mentioned in some of those documents. 54 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: Now in that paper that I credited in the last 55 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: episode from Albert Jambond twenty seventeensh Bronze age iron meteoretic 56 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: or not a chemical strategy, at least according to this source, 57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: the nickel count is low in these examples, but not 58 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: low enough to assign terrestrial origin, and that this is 59 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: definitely a case it seems like where the lower nickel 60 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 2: content is likely due to weathering effects. The blades themselves 61 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: have long been discussed as probable examples of meteoric iron, 62 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: going back at least as far as the book two 63 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: Early Chinese bronz Weapons with Meteoritic iron Blades by gettens 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: at All in nineteen seventy one, which details that these 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 2: blades were found in nineteen thirty one in Anyang Hanan 66 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: within a single tomb, which is also cited in Metals 67 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: in Antiquity by young at All nineteen ninety nine. Now 68 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: I have a picture here of these artifacts here for 69 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: you to look at, Joe and everyone else. You can 70 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: look these up as well online. Just look for meteoric 71 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: iron Chinese axes or Chinese broad axes and you can 72 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: likely find images of this. You can tell that these 73 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: were ornate, highly stylized weapons. Now, I want to note 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: that both of these sources here that are talking about it, 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 2: they seem to indicate less than certainty in some of 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 2: the details, saying that there seems to be a lot 77 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: of believe to have been in these references. Though, to 78 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: be clear, these weapons have long been in the Freer 79 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: collection at the Smithsonian, and there's no indication that the 80 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 2: dating or a larger geographic origin is particularly endowed here. 81 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: I just couldn't help it pick up on the fact 82 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 2: that this is one of those accounts where there seem 83 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 2: to be a little bit of ambiguity but no real 84 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 2: sticking points. I think in trying to understand where these 85 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 2: came from. These would have been Chinese broad axes, formally 86 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: inlaid and again likely largely ceremonial. These are not weapons 87 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: that would be out on the battlefield. Ah. 88 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I had been assuming the same was true 89 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 3: of Tuton Common's iron dagger, though in fact I guess 90 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 3: I don't have a way of knowing that for sure, 91 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 3: don't have a reason to suspect to use this for 92 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: knife dueling or anything. 93 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting to think about these examples in terms 94 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: of how do you use it right, because you know, 95 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: we have cases where you're going to have some sort 96 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: of an iron weapon that is going to be of 97 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: exceptional quality, but you're going to have so few of them, 98 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: maybe even just one. You know, what are you going 99 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: to do during the Bronze period with your iron weapon. 100 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: It's kind of like if, as a thought experiment, you 101 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: were to say, okay, what if I were to take 102 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 2: a lightsaber back to the one hundred Years War between 103 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: England and France during the fourteenth and fifteenth century, and 104 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: you gave it to one side or the other, you know, 105 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 2: what good is it going to do? You know, you 106 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: could make a case maybe for some sort of special 107 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 2: forces style use of the weapon by either party. Okay, 108 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: single combat, sure, but more likely than not, a single 109 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: lightsaber is not going to decide anything during the fourteenth 110 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: or fifteenth century in any kind of like warfare scenario. 111 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: It would make far more sense as a ritual object, 112 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,160 Speaker 2: as a tool of propaganda, is essentially like a scepter 113 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: to show how special and or powerful you are. 114 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: And as we talked about last time, with the specific 115 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 3: case of iron versus the dominant medal of bronze, there's 116 00:06:55,240 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 3: not even really a clear material superiority of early iron 117 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 3: weapons over say, well made bronze ones of the period. 118 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: That the advantages of iron when moving into the Iron 119 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: Age were primarily advantages in terms of economics and the 120 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 3: sourcing of materials, that it was easier to produce lots 121 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: of iron implements and tools and weapons at scale, rather 122 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 3: than it being that iron is just a much better 123 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: metal or something. 124 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 2: Right right, And the other key point, as we discussed 125 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: in the last episode is the knowledge of where the 126 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: meteorc iron came from, like knowing that this weapon is 127 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: of heavenly origin or of cosmic origin and so forth, 128 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: that seems to often be really important. And so I'm 129 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: going to get into that question here with Chinese examples. 130 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: Turning first back to Gettings at All, the work to 131 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: early Chinese bronze weapons with iron blades from seventy one. 132 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: They point out that meteorite falls were known to the 133 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: ancient Chinese and discussed in literature, often in reference to portents. 134 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: So if the metal used was known to have come 135 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 2: from the sky, they contend, it would have added to 136 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 2: the auspiciousness of the weapons and the reason that the 137 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: iron was used in these cases instead of jade, which 138 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: typically occupied an elevated position of ceremonial importance for weapons 139 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 2: and so forth. Such usage may have also influenced known 140 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: Chinese meteorite fragments. Quote such a use of meteoritic iron 141 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 2: might also explain the fact that only one iron meteorite 142 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: find is known from China. This I is referring to, 143 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: you know, ancient examples of meteorite, the idea being that 144 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: the iron meteorites would have been known as a source 145 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: for this sort of metal and would have been used 146 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: as such. And certainly these are not the only known 147 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: examples of Chinese meteoric weapons or weapons or artifacts that 148 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: are believed or it's argued, may be made of such iron. 149 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: There are several known artifacts of possible meteoric iron from 150 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: the late Sheng and early Western Zoo. So for examples 151 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 2: of some of those observations, because they mentioned, okay, the 152 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: ancient Chinese knew about meteorites. They knew they came from 153 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: the sky. For some examples of this knowledge, I turned 154 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: to the nineteen ninety four paper Meteorite Falls in China 155 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 2: and some Related Human Casualty Events by Yao at All, 156 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 2: published in the journal Meteoritics. They looked at accounts from 157 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: roughly seven hundred BCE through nineteen twenty CE, with the 158 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,959 Speaker 2: earliest account cited found in the Spring and Autumn Annals, 159 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 2: traditionally attributed to Confucius, would have historically lived around five 160 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: fifty one through four to seventy nine BCE. This work 161 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: is one of the five classics of ancient Chinese literature, 162 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: and it covers an historical period stretching from seven twenty 163 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: two to for eighty one BCE, and the work includes 164 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: coverage of a six forty five BCE event in which 165 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: quote in translation, of course, five stones fell in Sung 166 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: And there are various other accounts in this article that 167 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: they don't highlight all of them, but they highlights some 168 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: of historic. Note there is a Sey dynasty account. This 169 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: is from the work History of the Suy Dynasty, and 170 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: it refers to a six sixteen BCE meteorite, with the 171 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: account depicting a meteorite hitting a siege tower during the 172 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 2: besiegement of a walled city. 173 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: What. 174 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the idea is that there's a you know, 175 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 2: a siege situation going on, a meteorite hits, takes out 176 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: the siege tower, causes the sea, and then either the 177 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: strike of the meteorite or the perhaps far more likely 178 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: the subsequent collapse of said siege tower results in I 179 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: believe I read possibly ten fatalities. That was their I 180 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: think the recorded number. If this is true, it might 181 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:20,719 Speaker 2: stand as the earliest recorded human meteorite related fatality. These are, 182 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 2: of course rare. You're talking about situations where you know, 183 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 2: a meteorite hits somebody or hits the vicinity of a 184 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: human and in doing so results in a casualty. But 185 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 2: it's also not entirely clear. I've read some criticism of 186 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: this account saying, Okay, this is certainly possible, it would 187 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: be a very rare occurrence. It's we also have to 188 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 2: just acknowledge that it's possible that this siege tower was 189 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 2: taken out by something far more mundane, like human munitions 190 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 2: fired from the wall of the siege city, that sort 191 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: of thing. But it is kind of It is cataloged 192 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: in the historic records, so I've seen numerous texts acknowledge 193 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: it and say, well, perhaps this is true. 194 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 195 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 2: So hundreds of accounts follow these early accounts of meteorites 196 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 2: and the Chinese records, and I'm not going to go 197 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: through all of them, or even the ones listed in 198 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: this source. But there's one more I wanted to mention 199 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: here because it does line up with what we're talking 200 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: about and the subject of meteors and iron, and that 201 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: is the non meteorite shower of thirteen forty one. It's 202 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: notable because it seems to have been a shower of 203 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: iron meteorites, and it was even referred to as quote 204 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: the iron rain, with descriptions of the resulting bore holes 205 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 2: in the earth, matching up with what we know of 206 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 2: iron meteorite impacts today now thirteen forty one, of course, 207 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: is far outside the Bronze Age examples we're looking at, 208 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: but you know, you conbind this with certainly these much 209 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: earlier examples, and it does seem clear that the ancient 210 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: Chinese knew that meteorites came from above, they came from 211 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: the sky, and that alone would be enough to sort 212 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: of factor into these myth making understandings of what a 213 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 2: weapon forged of such iron would mean. By the way, 214 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: speaking of Chinese mythology, it's worth noting that You the Great, 215 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: the character that we've talked about on the show before, 216 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: founder of the shop of the dynasty, in myth and legend, 217 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: the bringer of flood controls, is sometimes, at least at 218 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: least in early Chinese mythology, connected to meteorites. Oh so, 219 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: according to Mark Edward Lewis, in the Mythology of Early China, 220 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: some texts say that you was born of a stone 221 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 2: or in a place named for a stone, while other 222 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 2: tellings state that quote his mother was inseminated by a 223 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: magical stone or meteor. 224 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: Oh interesting, this is a different way of sort of 225 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: like parenthood by the gods. 226 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I had not run across this before. 227 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 2: I cross checked it in a couple of my go 228 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 2: to Chinese mythology sources Yang and in Turner's Chinese Mythology 229 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 2: and Burrel's work on Chinese mythology. Both of these texts, 230 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: I refer to an origin story for you by which 231 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 2: he's born from the belly of his father's corpse following 232 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: the said father's execution. And this I'm guessing this entirely 233 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 2: masculine birth as a Buryl describes it. I guess this 234 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: is the predominant origin story that comes later, and that 235 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: Lewis here is focusing primarily on early tellings before those 236 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: traditions emerged. 237 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I see. 238 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: So anyway, these axes, among other artifacts, you know, another 239 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 2: example of an ancient Bronze Age culture having access to 240 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: meteoric iron using it to craft weapons that then have 241 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: an exalted place within their culture. Uh, and so, And 242 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: definitely look up images of this if you have the 243 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: ability to do so readily, because you can you know 244 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: they're they're they're not in priestine form, they haven't been 245 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: restored or anything like that they're not anywhere near the 246 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: the completeness of tut and Commons dagger, but you can 247 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: still get a sense of the majesty they would have had. 248 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, even the stubs are beautiful. Okay. I want to 249 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 3: talk about a statue, specifically a metal sculpture allegedly from Tibet, 250 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 3: sometimes called the Iron Man, referred to in a lot 251 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 3: of media reports as as the Iron Man or sometimes 252 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,359 Speaker 3: as the Space Buddha. 253 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 2: Well, these these, both, these descriptions both take you somewhere, 254 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 2: that's for sure. 255 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 3: So this statue weighs about ten point six kilograms or 256 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 3: about twenty three pounds, and is roughly twenty four centimeters 257 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 3: or about nine and a half inches tall. It is 258 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: made of iron, and it depicts a bearded male figure 259 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 3: that is sometimes referred to as a Buddha, sometimes referred 260 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: to as a god, sometimes referred to as a man. 261 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: But he is depicted wearing trousers, a sort of cape 262 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 3: or cloak that's joined over his shoulders in a knot 263 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: on his chest. He's wearing kind of almost kind of 264 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 3: cloglike looking shoes, pants with a split in the cuff 265 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: at the bottom of the pant legs, and what looks 266 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 3: to me kind of like scale armor over his mid section. 267 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 3: And then on that scale armor there is the symbol 268 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 3: of a swastika, which, remember, before it was appropriated by 269 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: the German Nazi Party, that was around nineteen twenty, it was, 270 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: for you know, injuries or even millennia, a traditional symbol 271 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: with positive associations in a lot of different cultures and 272 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 3: religions throughout the world, notably in Hinduism and Buddhism. 273 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: That's right, and it still has that status in various 274 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: Hindu and Buddhist traditions, though of course permanently ruined in 275 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 2: the West by the appropriation of the Nazi Party. 276 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so in the iron Man statue, the figure 277 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: has a halo like disc behind his head and he 278 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 3: is clutching a round egg shaped object in one hand. 279 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 3: His legs are folded underneath his body, so he looks 280 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: like he could be sitting cross legged or perhaps even dancing. 281 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: But this whole thing is carved out of a solid 282 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 3: piece of metal, with a rough, unfinished base below the figure. 283 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 3: So what is the deal with this weird metal statue. Well, 284 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: there was a bunch of media about this statue way 285 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: back in twenty twelve, it was associated with the publication 286 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 3: of a paper that was looking into its physical makeup 287 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 3: and its origins. The paper was by Buckner at All, 288 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 3: published in the journal Media Critics and Planetary Science again 289 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: in twenty twelve, and it was called Buddha from Space, 290 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 3: an ancient object of art made of a China iron 291 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 3: media write fragment. So I'm going to start with what 292 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 3: was originally alleged by it, but keep in mind that 293 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: some of the information I'm going to say at first 294 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 3: is either not certain or almost certainly not true. The 295 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 3: lead author of this paper, Elmer Buckner, is a geologist 296 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 3: affiliated with the Planetology Institute at Stuttgart University, and so 297 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: the authors of this paper were looking into the question 298 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 3: of first of all, what this statue is made of, 299 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: but also what does it depict and where did it 300 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 3: come from? As to where it comes from, there again 301 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 3: is plenty of debate about this, but the story as 302 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 3: received by the authors of the paper goes like this. 303 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 3: In the years nineteen thirty eight and nineteen thirty nine, 304 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 3: Adolf Hitler's SS sponsored a research and propaganda expedition to Tibet. 305 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 3: This is kind of a famous famous expedition about which 306 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 3: there has been much cultural legend, but this expedition was 307 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 3: led by the German zoologist and explorer Ernst Schaeffer. This 308 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 3: expedition collected a lot of material for return to Germany. 309 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: So they took a bunch of plant and animal samples, 310 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 3: seeds and grains and plants, and they cataloged birds. There 311 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 3: was ornithology missions and stuff like that, and it also 312 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 3: took a lot of cultural artifacts, including, according to a 313 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 3: Triple As blog post about this paper by Stephen A. 314 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 3: Edwards quote, a robe believed to have been worn by 315 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: the Dali Lama, a gold coin, and the iron statue. 316 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 3: The latter apparently attracted the attention of the Nazis because 317 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 3: of a swastika carved into its center. So that's the 318 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 3: story about where it came from. What does appear to 319 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 3: be true is that the statue was in the possession 320 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 3: of a private collector from sometime unknown until the year 321 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 3: two thousand and seven, which is the same year these 322 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: authors began investigating it. But before then, the allegation is 323 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 3: that it was taken from Tibet by Schaffer's men in 324 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 3: the late thirties and then disappeared during World War II, 325 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: only to reappear to the public in the two thousands. 326 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 2: All right. 327 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 3: Now, as to the question of what the statue is 328 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 3: made of, the authors conducted an elemental analysis and found 329 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 3: that the concentration of elements present in the metal was 330 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: consistent with an iron meteorite. So much like the analysis 331 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 3: we talked about in the previous episode looking at King 332 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 3: Tut's dagger, here they found high concentrations of nickel. This 333 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: statue was approximately sixteen percent nickel by weight and about 334 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 3: zero point six percent cobalt. These are not ratios you 335 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 3: would expect to find in earth based iron. Earth based 336 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: iron extracted from before the eighteen hundreds tends to be 337 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 3: not more than about four percent nickel. Also, the authors 338 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 3: analyzed the ratios of trace platinum group metals and found 339 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: that these were also consistent with meteorite iron. Not only 340 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 3: that they were able to match this metal to the 341 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 3: composition of meteorites from a specific known impact area. They write, quote, 342 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: the geochemical data of the meteorite generally matched the element 343 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 3: values known from fragments of the chinga a tax site, 344 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 3: A tax site meaning ungrouped iron meteorite strewn field discovered 345 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 3: in nineteen thirteen. The provenance of the meteorite as well 346 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: as the piece of art strongly points to the border 347 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: region of eastern Siberia and Mongolia. Accordingly, and I went 348 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 3: and did a little more looking. So it seems that 349 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 3: the Chinga meteorite is sort of it's an area rather 350 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: than one specific object. The Chinga meteorite field is something 351 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: that contains fragments of meteorite found by gold miners in Tuva, 352 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: which is a region of southern Siberia in Russia near 353 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 3: the border with Mongolia, and the hundreds of meteorite fragments 354 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: found there are thought to result from an object that 355 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 3: exploded in the atmosphere over Tuva between ten and twenty 356 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: thousand years ago. So the scientific evidence that the iron 357 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 3: Man statue was made out of meteorite iron seems quite strong. 358 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: But what about these other questions? What does this statue depict? 359 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: And when was when and where was it made? Here's 360 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 3: where we start getting into the much more disputed territory. 361 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 3: The authors of this twenty twelve paper claimed that it 362 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,239 Speaker 3: was likely a depiction of the warrior king, god and 363 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 3: wealth Buddha known as vice Ravana, who is the guardian 364 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 3: of the North. You can think of sort of heavenly 365 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 3: beings that are guard ardians of the cardinal directions, and 366 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: Viceravana is the guardian of the North. This figure, Viceravanna, 367 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: shares characteristics with the Hindu deity known as Kubera and 368 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: is also known as Jambala, sometimes shown carrying a lemon 369 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 3: or a money bag in his hand, and in other depictions, 370 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: especially earlier ones, the authors say that Viceravana is shown 371 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: as quote, a corpulent figure that holds a mongoose which 372 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: spews jewels from its mouth. Sometimes also, especially beginning in 373 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 3: the second half of the eighth century, they say, he 374 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 3: is shown with ghosts at his feet. So, due to 375 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: a number of visual motifs such as the crossed legs 376 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: and the scale armor and so forth, the authors believe 377 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 3: that this is Viceravana we're looking at. But they also 378 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 3: write their thoughts about the religious significance of the swastika 379 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 3: in the image. They say, quote, the swastika prominently displayed 380 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: on the cuirass of the sculpture was a symbol frequently 381 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: used is by the nature based pre Buddhist Bun religion 382 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 3: rooted in the western parts of Tibet. The Bun religion 383 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 3: had its own literature and art that was, they say, 384 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 3: continuously absorbed into the Tibetan Buddhism that propagated into the 385 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: entire area of Buddhist influence. A paper I'm going to 386 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 3: talk about in a minute, I think will somewhat dispute 387 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 3: that claim. But they say, accordingly, the iron Man could 388 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: represent a Bun slash Buddhist hybrid, showing some recognition features 389 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 3: of Kubera the early Vicerovana. 390 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: O good, all right, and not getting into the criticism 391 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: is about to come. That would seemingly make sense. We 392 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 2: can point in various examples, not only in Buddhist traditions, 393 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 2: but in other traditions where we see these emerging of 394 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 2: art styles and merging of cultures in a particular sculpture 395 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 2: or other work. 396 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 3: Sure, and so going with this hybrid art hypothesis, they write, quote, 397 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 3: according to this interpretation, the possible provenance of the iron 398 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 3: Man is western Tibet or anywhere in the area of 399 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 3: Buddhist influence, and the age can be tentatively dated at 400 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 3: the eighth to tenth century. Now, as far as I 401 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 3: can tell, the chemical analysis that they did appears sound. 402 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 3: I've not come across major criticism of the analysis of 403 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 3: the materials. So the statue is probably made of meteorite iron, 404 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 3: perhaps even from the known source of the Chinga meteorite field, 405 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 3: but the question of its cultural origin I found to 406 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 3: be strongly disputed. So there is a professor of Buddhist 407 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 3: studies named Akim Beher that could be Beayer or Bayer. 408 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I'm going to say Beyer. Apologies if 409 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 3: that's wrong. Behar, who was at one point affiliated with 410 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 3: Dunguk University in Soul, South Korea. He may be at 411 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 3: a different institution now, addressed these claims in an article 412 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: that I found called the Lama Wearing Trousers Notes on 413 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 3: an iron statue in a German private collection. And here's 414 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 3: where the story, I think becomes even more interesting, because, 415 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 3: of course, any statue or sculpture made out of a meteorite, 416 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 3: that's inherently a pretty fascinating idea. But it goes beyond that, 417 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 3: because it calls up questions of the authenticity of art 418 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 3: and our ability to recognize what we're looking at when 419 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 3: we're looking for cultural authentics and forgeries and fakes. In 420 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 3: this paper, Behar does not dispute the meteorite origin of 421 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: the iron, but argues that the statue is not authentically 422 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: Tibetan or Mongolian and bear's clear and well known hallmarks 423 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 3: of European imitations of Tibetan art. In other words, instead 424 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 3: of being a eight to tenth century Tibetan religious sculpture 425 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 3: made out of iron from space, it is a modern 426 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 3: European forgery made out of iron from space, or perhaps 427 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 3: not forgery, perhaps just imitation. I guess to decipher the 428 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 3: difference between forgery and imitation, maybe you would need to 429 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 3: know the intent of the artist. 430 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would imagine so, But as we've been 431 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 2: saying that that would appear to be lost to history, 432 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 2: so all we can do is offer conjecture. 433 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,479 Speaker 3: So Beyer says that at the time of his writing 434 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 3: in response to this paper and the media that followed it, 435 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 3: no authority on Tibetan or Mongolian art had ever publicly 436 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 3: authenticated the sculpture. So basically, from his point of view, 437 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 3: I think he's saying like, there's not even really anybody 438 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: within the relevant field to disagree with about this. It's 439 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 3: just clearly not authentic. And he goes on to list 440 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 3: thirteen stylistic elements of the sculpture that make it overwhelmingly 441 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 3: clear to him that it is a fake. I'm not 442 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: going to go through all thirteen, but I wanted to 443 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 3: mention a couple in detail, and then I can just 444 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 3: allude to the rest. So one example that even looked 445 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 3: weird to me. I am not claiming to be an 446 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 3: expert on Tibetan or Buddhist art. I don't really know 447 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 3: anything about it. But I looked at the statue and 448 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 3: I was like, huh, the shoes look weird, and what 449 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 3: do you know? So he identifies as this very first 450 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 3: item on the list the footwear. He writes, quote, the 451 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: lama is neither barefoot, nor does he wear traditional boots. 452 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 3: The shoes cover the feet like European shoes up to 453 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 3: the ankles, and no further. And Rob, I've got a 454 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 3: zoom in for us to look at here of the 455 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 3: shoes on the image. Again, they do look weird to me. 456 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 3: I'm not saying what looks weird to me should be 457 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: decisive on this issue. I just thought it was funny 458 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 3: that they did look weird to me. So after I 459 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: read this comment by Bear, I went around looking for 460 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: other images of vice Ravana in Buddhist art and other 461 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 3: images of just figures from Tibetan art, and yeah, I do. 462 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: I don't really see shoes that look like this. I 463 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 3: either see like bare feet or boots that go up 464 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 3: the calf. 465 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I had a similar experience after I read this 466 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: in your notes. I have a copy of Roberty Fisher's 467 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: Art of Tibet that I've used in research projects before, 468 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,680 Speaker 2: so I got that out I started looking through it. 469 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: That book, by the way, does not cover this particular 470 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: statue or mention it as far as I could tell, 471 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: but it has a lot of illustrations. So I scan 472 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 2: through it, and I don't know. I had an odd experience, 473 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 2: Like I love looking at t bett and art. I 474 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: love the complexity and all the rich information that is 475 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: contained within some you know that becomes apparent to someone 476 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: like me, But a lot of it is just lost 477 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: on me, as I am not its historic contended viewer. 478 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 2: But it is almost I found it almost physically painful 479 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: to look at each of these amazing images and focus 480 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: not on anything else going on in them, but to 481 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 2: look at the feet and the shoes. There are some 482 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 2: images where feet are seemingly very important, and so it's 483 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: not like feet or just a non commodity in these images, 484 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 2: but there's just so much going on that I had 485 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: a hard time looking at just the feet. 486 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, there was some series we did a while back 487 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 3: where we talked about, you know, and there's variation within 488 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 3: all art styles, but we talked about how a lot 489 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 3: of Tibetan art is just gloriously busy. There's like so 490 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 3: much going on in it, and so much text here. 491 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is if memory serves from those past episodes. 492 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,719 Speaker 2: Like part of it comes down to, of course, you 493 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: have a very complex theology that needs to be related 494 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: to some degree through these visual representations. And then also 495 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: there's a strong case to be made that the landscape 496 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: plays into it, that there is a kind of scale 497 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: to the Tibetan landscape that therefore makes these interior holy 498 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: spaces need to be busier, need to be just so 499 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: full of additional details and without any of these you know, 500 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 2: artistic voids that become important in other traditions. But anyway, 501 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: I looked at a lot of feet in these when 502 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 2: I could see them, and because it seemed like most 503 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 2: of the examples just broadly feet on all art. You know, 504 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: it's either going to be a barefoot or it is 505 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: going to be a feet you cannot see because they 506 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: are obscured by clothing. And I, in fact, I don't 507 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: think I saw a single shoe in that particular book. 508 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: I also went to a rather prolific blog online of 509 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 2: of Himalayan Buddhist art titled It's you can find It's 510 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: Himalayan Buddhist Art dot WordPress dot com. A lot of 511 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: images on there, with some some write ups. It seems 512 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 2: to be a very current blog. I looked around on there, 513 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: and in fact, and there I found I found lots 514 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 2: of bare feet, and I did find at least one 515 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: example of a couple of examples maybe a footwear, one 516 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: of which, though is clearly, like you said, a boot 517 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 2: that goes, you know, much much farther up the leg, 518 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 2: as opposed to what we see in the alleged iron 519 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: Man here. And so like you, now, when I look 520 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 2: at the iron Man's feet, I'm like, this is this 521 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: feels off? Like it feels even more off now that 522 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: I have all this additional information in my head about it. 523 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 2: They you know, they look like, I don't know, kind 524 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 2: of like little elfin shoes I don't know exactly. 525 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, but again it's not just our opinion. Expert on 526 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 3: Buddhism and Tibetan art says, this is not what this 527 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: usually looks like. Bear's next point points out the pants. 528 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 3: This guy's wearing pants, and he says, this is sort 529 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: of a dead giveaway that the trousers worn by the 530 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 3: lama in this sculpture are to be found nowhere else 531 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: in Tibetan or Mongolian sculpture of the time, in which 532 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: figures may wear robes or might have armor covering their shins, 533 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 3: but never pants like this. And even there's kind of 534 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 3: this interesting like what would you call this a flare 535 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 3: or I guess like a split. There's like a split 536 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: in the pant leg down at the cuff. And yeah, 537 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: Behar is like, I don't know what to make of that. 538 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,160 Speaker 3: Maybe that's just to make it look sort of different 539 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 3: than normal pants, like pastoral or something. 540 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, most of these images you look at Yeah 541 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 2: you're looking at it flowing robes and so forth or armor. Yeah. 542 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: I was looking around too for examples of what we 543 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: might describe as pants, and I was not finding them. 544 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 3: So then Bear goes on the list eleven other points 545 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 3: of difference from known Tibetan or Mongolian art, having to 546 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 3: do with everything from the way the body is positioned, 547 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 3: like the position of the legs, to how body parts 548 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 3: such as the beard and the hands are rendered. There 549 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 3: are major differences there. How the halo is depicted. I 550 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: want to come right back to that, and then things 551 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: about the clothing and the jewelry. Just a lot of 552 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 3: stuff about this does not fit with the alleged context 553 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 3: it supposedly comes from. So the part about the halo 554 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 3: was also in me given that we did a series 555 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: of episodes on halo imagery a couple of years ago. 556 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 3: Bayer says that halo's attached to the body like I 557 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 3: actually attached to the body on the sculpture are not 558 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: very common in genuine metal statues here, if they have 559 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 3: a halo, tends to be like a separate piece from 560 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 3: the body in the sculpture, But then also notes that 561 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 3: the halo around the figure's head and then the greater 562 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 3: ariole or behind the figure's body are totally blank and 563 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 3: featureless circles. 564 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:33,399 Speaker 2: Here. 565 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 3: I did a little digging deeper on this, and I 566 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 3: found another paper zooming in and showing maybe there are 567 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: a few little scratches and the halo if you zoom in, 568 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 3: but there's no major decoration or adornment. And if you 569 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 3: compare this to how halo's or arioles, you know, the 570 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 3: glow around the head or the glow around the body, 571 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 3: how they're usually depicted in Tibetan or Buddhist art, it's 572 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 3: a world of difference. They are usually not a blank circle. 573 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 3: They are usually highly textured, highly adorned, like we were saying, 574 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 3: very busy, with a lot going in them, maybe depicted 575 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 3: as flames or having a kind of texture within them, 576 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 3: or showing even little like scenes and figures inside them. 577 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think this feels like a strong point. Yeah, 578 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: that this halo feels way too casual. Yeah, and probably 579 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: has more in common with Western depictions of a halo, 580 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 2: you know. 581 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, looks more like a halo you'd see around the 582 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 3: head of a saint in like a medieval Catholic depiction 583 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 3: or something. Yeah. Yeah, So there is a bunch of 584 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 3: stuff like this that just does not match the cultural 585 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 3: context of its alleged production and on the art elements, 586 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 3: Behar says, quote, my own research has not yielded a 587 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 3: single even remotely similar object, which led me to conclude 588 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 3: that the statue is in fact a European counterfeit, and 589 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 3: I was encouraged to take this conclusion by several colleagues 590 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 3: I contacted. While no such artifacts exist in Inner Asia, 591 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 3: artifacts of the pseudo Tibetan style exist in abundance, produced 592 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 3: as home decoration for film sets and the like. Any 593 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 3: highly improbable claim to the opposite would have to carry 594 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 3: the burden of proof. So having made the case that 595 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: this is a European imitation rather than a genuine Tibetan 596 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 3: or Mongolian original, the paper also addresses some other questions, 597 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 3: including who is depicted in the sculpture and where it 598 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 3: comes from. As to who is depicted, Bear agrees actually 599 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 3: that it might possibly be Vice Sravana, which is what 600 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 3: the original authors proposed, but then also give some other possibilities. 601 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 3: Maybe it is Podmasimbava, there was another figure. It could 602 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 3: be an amalgam of elements from different original figures. And 603 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 3: then there's the question of where did it come from. 604 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 3: Bear also here casts doubt on the story that this 605 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 3: was taken from Tibet by by the Nazi Schaffer expedition. 606 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 3: In the late thirties. He claims that after corresponding with 607 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 3: the authors of the twenty twelve study, he could find 608 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 3: no reliable evidence that this piece had any historical association 609 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 3: with Schaffer or with the SS. I could be wrong, 610 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: but as best I can tell, the evidence for the 611 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 3: association is the claim of the collector who produced it 612 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 3: in the two thousands. But that came with no like 613 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 3: historical evidence backing it up or no reliable documentation. So 614 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 3: Bayer doubts the Schaffer connection totally. 615 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 2: So this might have just been a story that was 616 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 2: heaped on, perhaps just to make it a little more 617 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: marketable to. 618 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 3: Collectors possibly, and that could in fact work in two 619 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,720 Speaker 3: different ways. He identifies two different hypotheses for the production 620 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 3: of this. One is that it's a He calls it 621 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 3: something produced for the quote general antique and curio market, 622 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 3: in which case the oustica depicted on the armor and 623 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 3: the association with the Schaffer expedition would just like sort 624 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 3: of give it more general mystery, be like wow, that's weird, 625 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 3: and be attractive to a general antique buying audience or 626 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 3: curio buying audience. But then he says there's another interpretation, 627 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 3: which is a little more sinister, which is that it 628 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 3: is made specifically to appeal to the market for Nazi memorabilia, 629 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 3: in which case these associations would would have a specific 630 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 3: direct appeal. So who did make it, Beyer says, we 631 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 3: don't know, but he thinks that most likely it was 632 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 3: made by a European artist sometime roughly between nineteen ten 633 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 3: and nineteen seventy. Why those dates, The reasoning seems to 634 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 3: be that this would be a period when there was 635 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 3: a market for this sort of thing, for artifacts imitating 636 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 3: Tibetan styles or things to be passed off as Tibetan 637 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 3: in origin. But there was also still before nineteen seventy 638 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 3: enough ignorance within the market for this sort of art 639 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 3: that something of this quality could be passed off as authentic. 640 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 3: He says, after around nineteen seventy, quote, more details of 641 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 3: original Tibetan art gained wide dissipation, so probably the market 642 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 3: would be more aware of like that this would not 643 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 3: pass muster. So from Bear's perspective, we don't know what 644 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,040 Speaker 3: happened for sure, but it seems possible that it was 645 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 3: something like a piece of meteorite iron from the Chinga 646 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 3: meteorite field in Tuva again that southern Siberia somehow gets 647 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 3: transported to Germany, where sometime in the twentieth century, maybe 648 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,719 Speaker 3: between like nineteen ten and nineteen seventy roughly, it is 649 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 3: partially forged and carved into a statue made to crudely 650 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 3: imitate Tibetan art, and then from there it passes into 651 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 3: a collector's market with this story behind it, with this 652 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,280 Speaker 3: alleged link to the Schaffer expedition, and then he wraps 653 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 3: up the article by sort of discussing the importance of 654 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 3: consulting Pece in the relevant fields before go before you know, 655 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,799 Speaker 3: going public with claims of authenticity. So of course I'm 656 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 3: you know, I'm not qualified to adjudicate this matter either, 657 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,919 Speaker 3: but I would tend to take the word of people 658 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 3: who specialize in Tibetan art in evaluating whether something is 659 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,959 Speaker 3: authentically Tibetan art or not. And he says, basically, any 660 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,279 Speaker 3: specialist in Tibetan or Buddhist art could have looked at 661 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 3: this and said this is not authentic. And it's still 662 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 3: an interesting story with that additional context as well, because 663 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 3: so like a European forgery of Buddhist art imbued with 664 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 3: a mysterious Nazi backstory, which is in fact made out 665 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 3: of iron from a Siberian meteorite. How does that happen? 666 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's still this enigma, isn't it, even if it's 667 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 2: not the enigma that some tellings would make it out 668 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: to be. 669 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 3: But that's not all. There is one more development in 670 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,399 Speaker 3: this story that I came across. So in the year 671 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, age German historian of Tibet named Israun Engelhart 672 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 3: published an article called the Strange Case of the Buddha 673 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 3: from Space. And in this piece, Engelhart gives extensive reasons, 674 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 3: first of all, for thinking the sculpture was not brought 675 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 3: back to Germany from Tibet by the expedition in the 676 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 3: late nineteen thirties, which that expedition she had actually studied 677 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 3: in great depth. For one thing, the members of the 678 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 3: SS expedition actually made meticulous catalogs of the items but 679 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,920 Speaker 3: they brought back from Tibet, and the iron statue is 680 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 3: not listed among them. But Engelhart in this paper also 681 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 3: documents her attempts to track down the ownership history of 682 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 3: the Iron Man, and these efforts are somewhat successful and 683 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 3: they end up, pointing her back to a sort of 684 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 3: aggressively negotiating antiquities dealer from Russia. Going off that information, 685 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 3: Engelhart eventually reaches the conclusion to the sculpture was probably 686 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 3: somehow associated with a known historical figure. That it was 687 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 3: probably associated with and perhaps made for the strange Russian 688 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 3: artist Nikolai Rarick, that spelled Roe r Nikolai Rarick, who 689 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 3: lived from eighteen seventy four to nineteen forty seven. Rareck, 690 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 3: in his career, traveled extensively in Central Asia and was 691 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 3: obsessed with the Himalayas and with Tibet, and there are 692 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 3: many portraits of him posed in Tibetan garb and with 693 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 3: Tibetan surroundings. He's wearing Tibetan robes. In nineteen twenty six, 694 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 3: Rareck produced a sketch that Engelhart came across, and the 695 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 3: sketch is entitled the Order of rigden Yeppo, and the 696 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 3: sketch really looks a lot like the Iron Man statue. 697 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 3: There's a similar posture and pose, a similar double halo, 698 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 3: similar pointed hat, similar clothing, and a note about the 699 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 3: title there that Rarek understood riggdan Jeppo as the name 700 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 3: of a figure meant to be the future ruler of 701 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:15,439 Speaker 3: a spiritual kingdom known as Chambala in Tibetan Buddhism, and 702 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 3: further writing about the comparisons between the iron man statue 703 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 3: and the sketch and eventually the painting produced by Rerek 704 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 3: unknown as the order of Riggdan yeppo engel Heart writes quote, 705 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 3: the left hand of both the sketch and the statue 706 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 3: seems to hold neither a mongoose nor a vase, but 707 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 3: rather the famous radiant Centamani stone, the wish fulfilling jewel 708 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 3: coming from the Sky, which Rarec painted several times. In 709 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 3: nineteen twenty three, when the Rarecks were in Paris, they 710 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:56,080 Speaker 3: received a mysterious package through dubious channels that allegedly contained 711 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 3: this very stone, said to be a fragment of a meteorite. 712 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,720 Speaker 3: And apparently Rarick and his wife Elena, who was Elena 713 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,919 Speaker 3: was very into the mystical religious movement then known as Theosophy. 714 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 3: They got really excited about the meteorite stone and believed 715 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,799 Speaker 3: it have great significance for their lives. Apparently Rareck had 716 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 3: long had thoughts like imagined himself as carrying around a 717 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 3: magic stone that had some kind of like potency and 718 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 3: meaning for his fate, but anyway, Motivated in part by 719 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 3: their theosophical beliefs, Nikolay and Elena attempted to lead an 720 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 3: expedition in the nineteen twenties to find Shambala in the 721 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 3: in Tibet, to find the entrance to Shambala, and not 722 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 3: only that, but Nikolai would eventually come to see himself 723 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 3: and to style himself as rig Danneppo, the King of Shambala, 724 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 3: and so he had like ceremonial robes and other trappings 725 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 3: of this station created befitting his kingly destiny. Apparently, his 726 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 3: claim to be the king of Shambala did not go 727 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 3: over amazingly well with the Tibetans, and ultimately the expedition 728 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,760 Speaker 3: was considered a failure. Rareck got incredibly mad at Tibet 729 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 3: and at Buddhism after this and published a bunch of 730 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 3: nasty things about them. But coming back to the statue, 731 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 3: where did the statue come from? Engelhart argues, based on 732 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 3: a number of clues, that it's quite likely that Rereck 733 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 3: had this statue made out of meteorite iron around nineteen 734 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 3: twenty six to nineteen twenty seven in order to represent 735 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,279 Speaker 3: himself as the King of Shambala, and that's why it 736 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 3: bears these similarities to the sketch and the painting that 737 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,439 Speaker 3: he did of himself in this posture. And this would 738 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 3: have probably been done by a metal worker somewhere in Urga, 739 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 3: the capital of Mongolia today known as ulan Batar, and 740 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,720 Speaker 3: this would have been while the Rareks were staying there 741 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 3: in preparation for their expedition to bet So I think 742 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 3: we would need more like physical evidence to make the 743 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 3: link for sure, But I think it's good detective work, 744 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 3: and engle Heart makes a makes a really strong case, 745 00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 3: circumstantial case based on the similarities of the artworks and 746 00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 3: themes that we know that Raheric and Rarek and his 747 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 3: family were very interested in. So it seems quite plausible 748 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 3: to me. Anyway. I think that'll do it for today's 749 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 3: episode on the Iron from Space, But I feel like 750 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 3: we've got more to talk about with this subject now, Rob. 751 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,719 Speaker 3: I think you've got an interview scheduled to run on 752 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,879 Speaker 3: Tuesday of next week, right, But can we come back 753 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,040 Speaker 3: with part three of this discussion on Thursday? 754 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:53,360 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, we have more examples of potential meteoric iron 755 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 2: artifacts to discuss and more related topics. So we'll come 756 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 2: back for a part three on Thursday, with an interview 757 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,520 Speaker 2: episode airing on Tuesday that's not related. 758 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:04,800 Speaker 3: To this topic. 759 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 2: Sounds great, can't wait in the meantime, certainly right in. 760 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 2: If you have thoughts on the alleged iron man, well, 761 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the iron part is not alleged. 762 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,920 Speaker 2: It's a man. He's made out of iron. He is 763 00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,279 Speaker 2: iron man. No one can doubt that. We can't take 764 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 2: that away from him. But if you have thoughts on that, 765 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 2: or if you have thoughts on Chinese artifacts in Chinese 766 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 2: mythology right in, we'd love to hear from you. Also, 767 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,239 Speaker 2: if there are other examples from other cultures that we 768 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 2: haven't covered so far, bring them up, because we do 769 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 2: have a few things lined up to discuss. But if 770 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 2: you get us in time, you might be able to 771 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 2: we might be able to add it to the list, 772 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 2: or if it comes in after the fact, perhaps it's 773 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 2: something we can discuss on our listener Mail episodes. Our 774 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,880 Speaker 2: listener Mail episodes publish on Mondays and The Stuff to 775 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,360 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind podcast feed core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, 776 00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,080 Speaker 2: short form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we set 777 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 2: aside most serious concerns just talk about a weird film 778 00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,399 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. 779 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. 780 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us 781 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,200 Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 782 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:15,200 Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello, 783 00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 784 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 3: your Mind dot com. 785 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. 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