WEBVTT - The Secret Service Agent Who Witnessed it All [BONUS]

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<v Speaker 1>When you're working on a story, especially a documentary or

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<v Speaker 1>a podcast like this one, in the back of your mind,

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<v Speaker 1>there's always the hope that somehow something's going to help

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<v Speaker 1>the story break open in a new way, that there

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<v Speaker 1>will be breaking news. Our team was in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of putting this podcast together, doing interviews, conducting research, constructing

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<v Speaker 1>the episodes when we got an alert that Paul Landis,

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<v Speaker 1>one of President Kennedy's Secret Service agents, was coming forward

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<v Speaker 1>with new information. A few of the Secret Service agents

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<v Speaker 1>that were present that day have given interviews, some have

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<v Speaker 1>written books, but mister Landis has never spoken out. As

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<v Speaker 1>The New York Times said, he spent much of his

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<v Speaker 1>life after Dallas fleeing from history, trying to put the

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<v Speaker 1>horror from that day behind him. But now, at age

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<v Speaker 1>eighty eight, mister Landis decided to share his memories from

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<v Speaker 1>that day, including one moment that can be considered, if

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<v Speaker 1>not a smoking gun, a smoking bullet.

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<v Speaker 2>Paul Anders was twenty eight years old on November twenty second,

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty three, and he was positioned on the running

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<v Speaker 2>board of the car directly behind Kennedy as the motorcade

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<v Speaker 2>weaved its way through the streets of Dallas and into

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<v Speaker 2>Dealey Plaza. He agreed to talk to us about what

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<v Speaker 2>he saw that day. Here's more of the interview we

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<v Speaker 2>did with him, and I think it paints a vivid

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<v Speaker 2>picture of what it was like to witness it all. So, Paul,

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<v Speaker 2>the first thing is, can you just describe what you

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<v Speaker 2>saw at the moment that the President was hit?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, or just after we made turn onto Elm Street

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<v Speaker 3>and the two cars, President's limousine and the follow up

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<v Speaker 3>car were starting to straighten up behind each other. When

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<v Speaker 3>I heard the first shot, I looked at the President.

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<v Speaker 3>He was leaning a little bit to his left. He

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<v Speaker 3>was raising his arms, and I just thought that he

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<v Speaker 3>was reacting to the sound and was turning to see

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<v Speaker 3>where the sound came from. I did not realize at

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<v Speaker 3>that point that the President had been hit.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the first time he was hit, the first time.

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<v Speaker 3>His arms were flying up from the impact, but I

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<v Speaker 3>didn't realize he'd been hit at that time. So I

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<v Speaker 3>turned and looking over my right shoulder where the sound

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<v Speaker 3>came from, didn't see anything. Scanned down across what became

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<v Speaker 3>known as the Grassy Knoll, and I scanned across the

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<v Speaker 3>top of the underpass. We were approaching, and that time

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<v Speaker 3>I was just happened to be looking in the President's

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<v Speaker 3>direction again and the second shot, and just shortly after

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<v Speaker 3>the second shot, I heard the third shot. I saw

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<v Speaker 3>the presidents had split wide ope on the midst of

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<v Speaker 3>blood and flesh and rain matter flew into the air.

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<v Speaker 3>I ducked to avoid getting splattered. And at that point

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<v Speaker 3>we assumed under the under kass and we were on

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<v Speaker 3>our way to park On Memorial Hospital.

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<v Speaker 2>So that fatal shot that you describe, you're saying that

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<v Speaker 2>brain matter was flying towards you, right, Yes, how far

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<v Speaker 2>behind were you?

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<v Speaker 4>Probably fifteen, no more than twenty feet.

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<v Speaker 3>I was standing on the great rear running board of

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<v Speaker 3>half back the follow up car.

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<v Speaker 2>Then you arrive at Parkland Hospital, and I know there's

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<v Speaker 2>all chaos and trying to get the president in and

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<v Speaker 2>be treated in all of that. And then you described

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<v Speaker 2>this thing, and I know you've said it before, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'd look to hear it again in your words, that

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<v Speaker 2>you happened to find this a bullet in the back seat.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you just explain that.

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<v Speaker 1>Pay attention, because this is the part that's breaking news,

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<v Speaker 1>a bombshell in the history of the investigation into the

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<v Speaker 1>Kennedy assassination.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I raised to.

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<v Speaker 3>The President's and Missus Kennedy was sitting on the left

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<v Speaker 3>center of the rear seat, and when I got there,

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<v Speaker 3>I reached over the door, took her by the shoulders

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<v Speaker 3>and asked if I could help her, and she said no,

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<v Speaker 3>she wanted to stay with family. About that time, Clint

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<v Speaker 3>Hill came around, covered the President's head with his suit coat,

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<v Speaker 3>and Missus Kennedy released him, and they were starting to

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<v Speaker 3>get up. As soon as she's about right behind where

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<v Speaker 3>she had been sitting, there was a pristine bullet.

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<v Speaker 1>A pristine bullet in the backseat of the car, the

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<v Speaker 1>seat where the President and the First Lady had been sitting.

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<v Speaker 4>I picked this bullet up.

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<v Speaker 3>It was not deformed, other than it had recognized striations

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<v Speaker 3>hunt that it had been fired. I'm looking around, I

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<v Speaker 3>see no agents behind the car. Everybody was concentrating on

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<v Speaker 3>the President, so I didn't know what to do right away,

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<v Speaker 3>but I was afraid this bullet was an important piece

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<v Speaker 3>of evidence and I didn't want it to get lost.

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<v Speaker 3>There were people merging on the car at the time,

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<v Speaker 3>so I slipped it in my pocket and raced in

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<v Speaker 3>with the journey carrying the president's body.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, the bullet that you found, you said that it

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<v Speaker 2>was virtually pristine. So did it look like it had

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<v Speaker 2>hit anything.

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<v Speaker 4>It could not look like it hit anything.

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<v Speaker 3>All I had was the extridations on the out side.

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<v Speaker 4>It was just like resting on the top of a seat.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do you think, I mean, where do you

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<v Speaker 2>think this bullet came from?

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<v Speaker 3>I had no idea where it came from, other than

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<v Speaker 3>I was thinking the you know, the president's.

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<v Speaker 2>Body, because I mean there was in the autopsy they

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<v Speaker 2>showed that a bullet hit him in the back. So

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<v Speaker 2>is that possible that maybe that bullet was the one

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<v Speaker 2>that hit him in the back.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's very possible.

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<v Speaker 3>They didn't discover a back room until we got that

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<v Speaker 3>to Washington.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to pause here in this interview for just

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<v Speaker 1>a moment and make sure that everybody understands the significance

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<v Speaker 1>of what mister Landis is sharing with us.

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<v Speaker 4>Rob.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you explain it completely destroys the single bullet theory.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we already knew the theory made absolutely no sense,

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<v Speaker 2>But the discovery of this bullet in the back seat

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<v Speaker 2>of Kennedy's limo puts the final nail in its coffin.

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<v Speaker 1>Walk me through what's so powerful about this information?

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<v Speaker 2>As our listeners know, the single bullet theory holds that

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<v Speaker 2>one bullet supposedly entered Kennedy's back six to eight inches

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<v Speaker 2>below his neck, then traveled up, exited his neck, then

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<v Speaker 2>made a turn, entered Governor Connolly's back, broke bones in

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<v Speaker 2>his wrist before winding up in his thigh, and somehow

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<v Speaker 2>the bullet ends up virtually pristine. So now this pristine

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<v Speaker 2>bullet would have to have gone through both the President

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<v Speaker 2>and Governor Connolly, breaking multiple bones, then somehow bounced back

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<v Speaker 2>into the backseat of the car. And if somehow this

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<v Speaker 2>bullet didn't accomplish all this, it means there had to

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<v Speaker 2>be more than one shooter, making it a conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, while we digest that, let's go back to the

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<v Speaker 1>Landis interview and hear what else he has to say.

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<v Speaker 2>You put the bullet in your pocket, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>followed them into Parkland Hospital, and then then what did

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<v Speaker 2>you do with the bullet?

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<v Speaker 4>Okay?

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<v Speaker 3>We raced across the emergency room entrance, we made a turn,

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<v Speaker 3>went down a hallway, and we arrived at trauma Room one.

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<v Speaker 3>There was a crowd of people that had joined us

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<v Speaker 3>at that point, and it was kind of pushed into

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<v Speaker 3>the room. I was just forced up against the examination table,

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<v Speaker 3>right next to his feet. Thought that this is a

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<v Speaker 3>perfect place to leave the bullet. So I reached into

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<v Speaker 3>my pocket, took it out and placed it by the

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<v Speaker 3>presidents left shoe.

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<v Speaker 2>And what was the reason that you decided to put

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<v Speaker 2>it there?

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<v Speaker 3>I just thought it was an important piece of evidence.

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<v Speaker 3>Doctors would find it when they did their examination.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody saw the bullet at that point.

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<v Speaker 4>No, because people were shoving, pushing, shouting.

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<v Speaker 2>Somebody found it somewhere and entered it into evidence. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you have any idea who might have picked that up

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<v Speaker 2>or found it?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I've read things since how the bullet was found.

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<v Speaker 3>Supposedly it was on Connolly's stretcher. I knew that that

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<v Speaker 3>was not true. When I saw a picture of the bullet,

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<v Speaker 3>my immediate reaction was, Hey, that's my bullet, and I's

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<v Speaker 3>not from Governor Connolly's stretcher. I put it next to

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<v Speaker 3>the President's feet.

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<v Speaker 2>But obviously somebody either moved it or picked it up

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever, because it is in evidence. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 2>have pictures of it that we see that were in

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<v Speaker 2>into evidence. I don't know if you've seen that picture

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<v Speaker 2>of it. Yes, I have.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, that's what I recognized.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm just curious why you know at this point

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<v Speaker 2>you decided to come forward.

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<v Speaker 3>I've been told. I understand now at the post traumatic

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<v Speaker 3>stress I suffered through this for quite a while. I

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<v Speaker 3>have to read the Secret Service. I was suffering too much.

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<v Speaker 3>The newsreel of the President's had exploring. People have asked

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<v Speaker 3>me about Dallas, and I just never talked about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Listen, I can understand it because you know, it was

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<v Speaker 2>so shocking at the time, and then in the seventies

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<v Speaker 2>when the Zuppruder film was first shown to the public.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so disturbing and so upsetting. And you were there,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, brain matter is hitting you. I can

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<v Speaker 2>see how it's a trauma that is beyond description, and

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<v Speaker 2>I can understand not wanting to relive that. So the

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<v Speaker 2>Warren Commission, they never asked you to testify, or they

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<v Speaker 2>never questioned you or interviewed you.

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<v Speaker 4>No, I assumed.

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<v Speaker 3>Once I knew the Warren Commission had been created, I said, well,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to be in for an interview here. And

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<v Speaker 3>I was dreading it. I was glad it never happened

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<v Speaker 3>because I knew I would break it down there and

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<v Speaker 3>that was a very good image for secrets of this agent.

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<v Speaker 3>The Warren Commission never interviewed any of the other agents

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<v Speaker 3>that were in the follow up car.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, listen, you know, I can't tell you how much

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<v Speaker 2>I appreciate you giving me some time to talk. This

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<v Speaker 2>has been something I've been thinking about since the day

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<v Speaker 2>had happened. And you know, every time you hear some

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<v Speaker 2>new information that may shed more light on what happened

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<v Speaker 2>that day, people like me and you know we're getting older,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, who still care about this, are grateful to

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<v Speaker 2>hear from you and hear what you had to say.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just want to thank you so much for

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<v Speaker 2>giving me the time.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, thank you for offering me the opportunity. I appreciate

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<v Speaker 4>it very much.

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<v Speaker 1>That was amazing, and not just what we learned from

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<v Speaker 1>him and the implication that it has on our understanding

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<v Speaker 1>of the assassination, but he's another person whose life was

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<v Speaker 1>profoundly impacted by this tragedy. I cannot imagine living with

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<v Speaker 1>what he has seen for all of these years.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and it's amazing that He's coming forth now to

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<v Speaker 2>share what he saw, and it brings absolutely true. For years,

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<v Speaker 2>the pristine bullet was a mystery, not just how was

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<v Speaker 2>in such good shape, but how it was found lying

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<v Speaker 2>on that stretcher. Nobody could plausibly explain how it got there.

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<v Speaker 2>But now we have a secret service agent who finds

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<v Speaker 2>the bullet in the back seat of Kennedy's car and

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to make sure nobody took it as a souvenir,

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<v Speaker 2>he picks it up puts it on the President s Kearnie.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the most significant piece of the puzzle that

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<v Speaker 2>we've been trying to solve for sixty years. Who Killed JFK?

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<v Speaker 1>Is hosted by Rob Reiner and Me Solidad O'Brien and

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<v Speaker 1>Our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George,

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<v Speaker 1>Jason English, David Hoffman, and Me Solidad O'Brien. Our writer

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<v Speaker 1>is David Hoffman, with research by Dick Russell. Our story

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<v Speaker 1>and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us

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<v Speaker 1>a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who

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<v Speaker 1>Killed JFK as a production of Solidad O'Brien Productions and

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<v Speaker 1>iHeart Podcasts