Speaker 1: Attention Bechdel Cast listeners, especially those who lived in the
Speaker 1: UK or Ireland and or anywhere that you could easily
Speaker 1: get to either of those places.
Speaker 2: We're going on tour, baby, and it's not just any tour.
Speaker 2: It's the Shrek Tannic Tour. That's right. Shrek and or
Speaker 2: Titanic are the movies recovering on this tour at the
Speaker 2: demand of us, and you question mark, see you there,
Speaker 2: We'll figure it out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you might have heard other episodes where we've talked
Speaker 1: about Titanic or talked about one of the Shrek movies,
Speaker 1: but you're in for some surprises on this tour. We're
Speaker 1: gonna be doing stuff you haven't seen before. There's gonna
Speaker 1: be games, there's gonna be clips, there's gonna be costumes,
Speaker 1: there's gonna be all kinds of new and interesting and
Speaker 1: exciting things. It's a spectacle.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be fun. It's a celebration of the movies,
Speaker 2: but it's also just a celebration of the show and
Speaker 2: the Bechdelcast community. We've never done a full tour across
Speaker 2: the Pond before and we're very, very excited to come
Speaker 2: and see everybody. So hopefully, if you're in the area,
Speaker 2: you can make it. It's during the spring. We're gonna have fun.
Speaker 1: Our first leg of the tour is in London on
Speaker 1: May twenty second. There are two shows that night, a
Speaker 1: six point thirty show on Shrek and a nine o'clock
Speaker 1: show on Titanic.
Speaker 2: Next, on May twenty fourth, we are going to be
Speaker 2: in Oxford as a part of the Saint Audio Podcast Festival.
Speaker 1: Then we're scooting up to Edinburgh. On May twenty sixth
Speaker 1: we are covering Shrek.
Speaker 2: Then on May twenty eighth we are in Manchester once
Speaker 2: again covering Titanic.
Speaker 1: And finally a show that we recently added in Dublin
Speaker 1: on May twenty ninth that is also a Titanic show.
Speaker 2: We're so excited to meet everybody. We chose two of
Speaker 2: our favorite movies so that we can celebrate the community
Speaker 2: and just have a good time. So please come out.
Speaker 2: You can get all of the tickets over at our
Speaker 2: link tree, which is in the description link Tree slash
Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast, and we hope to see you there. We
Speaker 2: have such ridiculous outfits, oh my gosh, and exclusive merch
Speaker 2: and everything else, so you.
Speaker 1: Don't even know how many videos I've edited for these
Speaker 1: shows to screen. I'm so excited.
Speaker 2: Thank for everyone to see incredible flex.
Speaker 1: Thank you all right, we will see you.
Speaker 2: There, see you there.
Speaker 3: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 3: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and
Speaker 3: husbands or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph
Speaker 3: and bast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 1: Thes are alive. Wow, my beautiful singing force with us
Speaker 1: sound well, the sound of podcasts, of.
Speaker 2: Course, can you imagine? I mean, that's a real dystopia.
Speaker 2: If the hills are alive with the sound of podcasts,
Speaker 2: that is like, so I would be so scared, And
Speaker 2: this is my job, and I cannot advocate for a
Speaker 2: world in which the hills are alive with the sound
Speaker 2: of podcasts. That's a dangerous world. That's a slippery slope.
Speaker 1: That's dystopia for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's hell. The hills are alive with the sound
Speaker 2: of podcasts.
Speaker 1: In hell, Hell is alive with the sound of podcasts.
Speaker 2: Ed boy, is it welcome to imagine that? I quite
Speaker 2: liked that opening up. Okay, welcome to the Bedel Cast.
Speaker 2: My name is Jamie loftis.
Speaker 1: My name is Caitlin Deronte, and this is our show
Speaker 1: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using
Speaker 1: the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point something
Speaker 1: to inspire larger conversations about representation and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: But Jamie, what's the Bechdel test though?
Speaker 2: Well? The Bechdel test is a media metric created by
Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test because she
Speaker 2: co created it with her friend Liz Wallace. Originally appeared
Speaker 2: in her Amazing comics collection Dikes to Watch out For
Speaker 2: as a joke pointing out how not just how how
Speaker 2: infrequently that's the word I was looking for, how infrequently
Speaker 2: women talk in movies, but how infrequently queer women appear
Speaker 2: in movies at all. Yes, this later became a more
Speaker 2: sort of sanitized media metric that we use as a
Speaker 2: jumping off point for discussion. So the version of the
Speaker 2: tests that we use and talk about for all of
Speaker 2: three seconds in every episode is that we require two
Speaker 2: characters of a marginalized gender with names talk to each
Speaker 2: other about something other than a man for more than
Speaker 2: two lines of dialogue, and it should be plot moving dialogue. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that is the Bechdel test. And the hills are alive
Speaker 2: with the sound.
Speaker 1: Of women talking to each other. Yes, wow, in heaven
Speaker 1: that is wow.
Speaker 2: Can you imagine being banished to like the hills where
Speaker 2: it's just like Joe Rogan?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, don't even put that out into the universe.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I like to think about, like, what would be
Speaker 2: an interesting version of Hell that's a fun one, completely empty,
Speaker 2: or like, the hills are beautiful, the weather is perfect
Speaker 2: all the time, but you can't turn off the Joe
Speaker 2: Rogan so you can never enjoy it.
Speaker 1: Yikes. Yeah that does sound like Hell.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Anyway, the movie we're talking about today is the Sound
Speaker 1: of music if you haven't figured it out, And we
Speaker 1: have an amazing guest joining us today. She is the
Speaker 1: director of strategy and Partnerships for the Working Families Parties.
Speaker 1: She's the co founder of the Resistance Revival Course. She's
Speaker 1: also a former children's theater actress and has ties to
Speaker 1: this very musical It's N'linie Stamp aka Sister Abbess.
Speaker 4: Was that the part you played mother Superior Mother? Well?
Speaker 5: No, no, no, it's okay, but yes, I got to say,
Speaker 5: climb every mountain, O, my god, and a falsetto soprano voice.
Speaker 5: But thanks for having meal, Oh my gosh, thanks.
Speaker 1: For being here.
Speaker 2: What again? Truly awesome.
Speaker 4: I might break out into song some point.
Speaker 1: Oh please please, on an episode like this, It's unavoidable.
Speaker 2: I kind of forgot how many hits are. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's really all hits in the Sound of Music. Okay,
Speaker 2: so let's Nlinie. Let's start with you. What is your
Speaker 2: history with the Sound of Music, the movie, the show
Speaker 2: tell us everything?
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 5: So I first watched Sound of Music the movie when
Speaker 5: I was six years old.
Speaker 4: I think it was one of the first.
Speaker 5: My aunt still has like the whole Rogers and hammer
Speaker 5: Stein collection of musical like vhs.
Speaker 4: She still has them, and so we would watch all
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 5: A lot of them pretty racist, like Flower Drum Song
Speaker 5: and so Yeah and the King and I you know
Speaker 5: and so yeah. But I loved the music. I mean
Speaker 5: I loved singing Rogers and hammer Sign.
Speaker 4: Julie Andrews is a hero of mine.
Speaker 5: I literally get emotional say her name, like, especially since
Speaker 5: she can't sing anymore. It's like or sing the way
Speaker 5: she used to, you know, and so I saw it
Speaker 5: and then saw it on a Broadway tour, probably when
Speaker 5: I was about ten. I was a child actress. I
Speaker 5: had a screen actress, Gill Card. I thought I was
Speaker 5: gonna be on Broadway. So I was in Staten Island
Speaker 5: Children's theater for many years from where I was eight
Speaker 5: till I was eighteen, So ten years of Statn Island
Speaker 5: Children's Theater Association. Shout out to SICTA and I played.
Speaker 5: I think it was my sophomore year of high school.
Speaker 5: I went to the Fame school. I'm gonna live for
Speaker 5: vocal music, so like I went, oh my god. You know,
Speaker 5: Nicki Minaj was two years older than me, which was hilarious,
Speaker 5: and you know, and so it's sophomore year. But I
Speaker 5: went to a children's theater group, like I love them,
Speaker 5: They're amazing. They're still some of my good friends.
Speaker 4: But it was mostly white.
Speaker 5: And I was one of maybe two black young girls.
Speaker 5: And you know, we're auditioning for the sound of music,
Speaker 5: and I think I remember somebody be like, oh, you
Speaker 5: should be one of the track kids. And somebody was like,
Speaker 5: but how does that make sense? And I was like
Speaker 5: uh oh.
Speaker 4: I was like uh oh.
Speaker 5: But then they gave me the role of Mother Superior.
Speaker 5: And you know, the musical is different than the movie, right,
Speaker 5: Like My Favorite Things isn't sung by Julie Andrews.
Speaker 4: It's sung by the nuns like Mother Superior.
Speaker 5: So like I was like, ooh, I get my Favorite
Speaker 5: Things like great, Like you know, I was like really
Speaker 5: excited about that stuff. But you know, it was actually
Speaker 5: the sixtieth anniversary of the movie. In December, they re
Speaker 5: released the whole album and I like, listen to it again.
Speaker 5: I started crying because I was like, we now we're
Speaker 5: actually dealing with Nazis like again in the world, like
Speaker 5: and so I was just like it's like Atalvice was
Speaker 5: like playing and I'm just sitting there just rocking myself
Speaker 5: back and forth on a bed, just listening to it.
Speaker 5: And I got to meet the director too, because he
Speaker 5: also directed West Side Story. Yes, I got to meet
Speaker 5: the director before he died, because I went to the
Speaker 5: fiftieth anniversary of West Side Story and I met Rita
Speaker 5: Moreno when I was twelve, which was my hero as
Speaker 5: a Porrigan. West Side Story was very at to me.
Speaker 5: So it just yeah, so this, I mean sound of
Speaker 5: music has had something in my life for my whole life,
Speaker 5: and to this day, I'm like, oh wow, these songs
Speaker 5: are like, yeah, we're not the Von Trapps.
Speaker 4: But we have to face off some of this stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful. Oh my gosh, thank you, Caitlin.
Speaker 2: What's your history with the Sound of Music.
Speaker 1: I had only seen it once before, I believe in college,
Speaker 1: when I was watching a bunch of iconic movies that
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen yet, and I watched it, and I
Speaker 1: famously am not a big musical person. I'm so sorry everybody,
Speaker 1: unless it's an animated movie musical, or unless it's like
Speaker 1: a very wacky absurdist like Dix the Musical I loved.
Speaker 2: Is it good?
Speaker 4: I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker 2: I'm very excited to see it, and I know it's great,
Speaker 2: But this is it's very funny to listen to you repeatedly,
Speaker 2: f be like Dix the Musical is better than the
Speaker 2: Sound of Music, if you.
Speaker 1: Can quote me on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. It's just like god tear take.
Speaker 4: It really is.
Speaker 1: It's a very Caitlin take as well. But I do
Speaker 1: love Dix the Musical. Sound of Music I like, but it's.
Speaker 2: No Dix the Musical it's no Dix the musical.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little maybe it's like too earnest for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like, obviously Julie Andrews is so talented
Speaker 1: and amazing and like so extremely likable and every movie
Speaker 1: that she's in, But as someone who's not a musical
Speaker 1: oriented person, I saw it once and I was like, yep,
Speaker 1: that was enough for me. But you know, I watched
Speaker 1: it twice to prep for this episode and was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I forgot that so many of these like very familiar
Speaker 1: songs that are still in the zeitgeist are from this
Speaker 1: movie and this musical. So I was like, oh, it's wild, wild, right,
Speaker 1: all of these songs are from this So that was
Speaker 1: a nice reminder.
Speaker 2: The closest experience I can think to it is like
Speaker 2: every time you go to see like The Nutcracker, you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: every single piece in this is very famous, and I
Speaker 2: sort of like, like I rediscover that every time I
Speaker 2: like listen to The Nutcracker around Christmas. Same deal with
Speaker 2: this musical. You're like it's all hits.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Jamie, what about you.
Speaker 2: I didn't get into this when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: I think it was just like it was too long
Speaker 2: for me. I'm not sure what it was, or maybe
Speaker 2: I was just a very pop and I don't know why.
Speaker 2: I was like, I have to pick one. Julie Andrews' sixties.
Speaker 1: Standard Takes Care of Children. Yeah, character, that.
Speaker 5: Is almost the same movie.
Speaker 2: They came out back to back, and it's like she's
Speaker 2: just doing it. She's like, this is the blonde version,
Speaker 2: although like the Sound of Music has way more going on,
Speaker 2: but also no cartoon penguins, and so you're just like,
Speaker 2: that's something to keep in mind as you're watching the
Speaker 2: Sound of Music. There's never going to be a cartoon penguin.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 2: I guess it would be tasteless given the subject matter. Anyways,
Speaker 2: I wasn't a huge fan of it as a kid.
Speaker 2: I knew all the songs I love, Love, Love Julie Andrews,
Speaker 2: and this was a really interesting musical to revisit I forgot.
Speaker 2: I knew like all the main points, but I forgot
Speaker 2: a lot of the smaller plot points. And completely by coincidence,
Speaker 2: I recently saw Cabaret for the first time, which I mean,
Speaker 2: it couldn't be a more different musical, but shares a
Speaker 2: lot of the themes and the DNA of this musical
Speaker 2: where Cabaret takes place in leate Weimar, Germany and Berlin,
Speaker 2: and also I think in a very different and more
Speaker 2: cynical way, asks the viewer like, well, what would you
Speaker 2: do if you were in this position and in Cabaret?
Speaker 2: I mean, I saw Cabaret at the Vista last week
Speaker 2: and it blew me away. I mean, it's like that
Speaker 2: movie's fucked up, really, but it was like terrific. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then prepping for Sound of Music a couple of
Speaker 2: days later. The music couldn't be more different, but it
Speaker 2: takes place a couple years later and is in some
Speaker 2: ways asking the viewer the same question. It was interesting
Speaker 2: to watch back to back. I texted my mom. I
Speaker 2: was like, Mom, do you love the sound of music?
Speaker 2: And I got like a wall of text The answer
Speaker 2: is yes, she said when I first saw it at
Speaker 2: the movies, it was the first movie she saw in theaters.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: She was like four when it came out, and she said,
Speaker 2: when I saw it at the movie with my Grandma Viv,
Speaker 2: I decided I wanted to be the problem to be solved,
Speaker 2: just like Maria's like, okay.
Speaker 4: That's iconic. Wow, that's iconic.
Speaker 2: And she said the idea was not to control her,
Speaker 2: simply let her be thank you for being you. I
Speaker 2: was like, thanks, mom, I'm so hyped this morning.
Speaker 4: Wow, that's amazing. That's amazing.
Speaker 5: It's also interesting that you just said the like the question,
Speaker 5: because I feel like a lot of musicals did that
Speaker 5: in the six movie musicals, like it was that it
Speaker 5: was Fiddler on the Roof, it was right, like all
Speaker 5: these things were like what would you do if you
Speaker 5: were there while we're singing? And do you have iconic
Speaker 5: songs that people still know to this day?
Speaker 4: So it's like, I mean, if I were a rich.
Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't if I were a rich girl,
Speaker 5: because it got turned into.
Speaker 2: And Stefani hi on the no no, when Stefani was
Speaker 2: ripping these off.
Speaker 1: Oh goodness. Well, let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: we'll come back for the recap. And we are back,
Speaker 1: and here's the recap of Sound of Music. I don't
Speaker 1: know if we need like a content warning here, but
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Nazis and Nazi Germany, so
Speaker 1: just so everyone knows, Okay, here we go. We are
Speaker 1: just outside Salzburg, Austria, It's at the end of the
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, and Maria, played by Julie Andrews, is wandering
Speaker 1: around the rolling hills, singing that the hills are alive
Speaker 1: with the sound of music, and that's the name of
Speaker 1: the movie.
Speaker 2: And boy are they The opening shot to this movie
Speaker 2: is so beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 4: It still makes me gass.
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: I'm like, should I move to Austria? I might, I
Speaker 1: don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's the lesson of the movie.
Speaker 1: Now, then why make it look so beautiful at the beginning? Okay?
Speaker 1: We cut to a convent where some nuns are talking
Speaker 1: and then singing about Maria, saying that she's two whimsical,
Speaker 1: that she's a flibberty gibbet.
Speaker 2: If you will, got her ass.
Speaker 1: Most of them like her, but she's not a very
Speaker 1: good nun. They can all agree, and so the reverend
Speaker 1: mother basically fires Maria from being a nun.
Speaker 2: But like in a nice way. I always I forget
Speaker 2: how nice. Yeah, They're like, cut her loose, let her
Speaker 2: explore the world. It challenged. Immediately, I've realized how set
Speaker 2: the nun trope is in my head, where I'm like
Speaker 2: nuns are mean none. They probably hate her because she
Speaker 2: likes to sing and have fun. But then I was like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of the Sister act Nuns. This is a
Speaker 2: sister act.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean one of my lyrics is how do you
Speaker 5: catch a cloud and bring her down?
Speaker 4: Like? They don't call her, they say she's a cloud.
Speaker 1: How do you hold a moonbeam in your hand?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I don't want my coworkers to talk about
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 1: Well, Jamie, I do. I call you a moonbeam and
Speaker 1: a cloud every day.
Speaker 2: Sure, Jamie doesn't show up, but I don't a great
Speaker 2: she's great? Which is that whole That whole song passes
Speaker 2: the Vectel test. It is so sweet, I know. I
Speaker 2: also wanted to shout out Marnie Nixon plays one of
Speaker 2: the sisters, and she is extremely famous, although it very
Speaker 2: rarely appears and stuff because she was the famous like
Speaker 2: dubbed voice of the fifties and sixties. When Natalie Wood
Speaker 2: is singing in West Side Story, no she's not Marnie
Speaker 2: Nixon is singing. When I Habern is singing in My
Speaker 2: Fair Lady, No she's not. Marne Nixon is singing the
Speaker 2: King And I also her like she was the ghost singer,
Speaker 2: and so the fact that she was physically in this
Speaker 2: movie was like a big deal.
Speaker 1: I also singing in the rain vibes of a singer
Speaker 1: dubbing for another actor, and that's the movie we're about
Speaker 1: to cover. So it's all connected. Her web connects them all,
Speaker 1: Madam Webb's web.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I can't start thinking about Madam Web. Think about
Speaker 2: Madam Web a week later.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Maria is fired from being a nun and
Speaker 1: Reverend Mother's like, you're no longer married to God, so
Speaker 1: now you can go off God divorced you? Yeah, from God?
Speaker 1: But the Reverend mother sends Maria to be a governess
Speaker 1: for a family nearby, the Von Trapp family.
Speaker 2: Okay, bear with me. I think that this is where
Speaker 2: the movie for the good chunk of the first half,
Speaker 2: and then a little bit at the end this movie,
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, this is School of Rock, Like
Speaker 2: what okay, what Jody Andrews is doing with the Von
Speaker 2: Traps is literally what Jack Black does in school. The
Speaker 2: whole when they're putting together their first song was like,
Speaker 2: do ray me.
Speaker 4: That's a good point.
Speaker 1: And then Joan Cusack is Captain von Trapp basically because
Speaker 1: doesn't she need to like learn to lighten up as
Speaker 1: the movie goes on.
Speaker 2: Ye, yes, whoa exactly exactly.
Speaker 5: I'm actually officially gagged right now.
Speaker 2: Go of Rock is my favorite movie, and so I'm
Speaker 2: always looking for things to be more like it. But
Speaker 2: this time I was like, wait, it's actually working. At
Speaker 2: the end when the kids from School of Rock go
Speaker 2: back and be like, we have to get Dewey, we
Speaker 2: gotta get here. Answer the von Trapps do that. They
Speaker 2: go back and they like, you got to get Maria.
Speaker 4: They do they do?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is a revelation.
Speaker 4: Also connection that film was filmed in Staten Island.
Speaker 5: Oh, School of Rock was all filmed, so we were
Speaker 5: all trying to do jack backsidings when when that, Yeah,
Speaker 5: it was a big thing island.
Speaker 1: I mean even the naming convention of both movie titles
Speaker 1: School of Rock Sound of Music Music exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: Somebody asked this question.
Speaker 2: I guess I don't really have anything else to say
Speaker 2: about it, just that I was like, wow, Sound of
Speaker 2: Music is World War two School of Rock, and now
Speaker 2: you know, now we know?
Speaker 1: Okay, So Maria is sent to be the governess for
Speaker 1: the von Trapp family. The father is a navy captain
Speaker 1: who's his wife died a few years prior or sometime prior,
Speaker 1: and so he needs a governess to take care of
Speaker 1: his seven children. And Maria is nervous and apprehensive about
Speaker 1: taking care of so many children, especially because there have
Speaker 1: been so many other governesses who quit after a short time.
Speaker 1: But she sings about having confidence in herself. And then
Speaker 1: she arrives at the mansion and meets the father, Captain
Speaker 1: Gayorg von Trapp.
Speaker 2: Everyone's like, why do you look like shit? It was
Speaker 2: like leave her alone. She just got here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They keep commenting on her ugly dress, and it's like,
Speaker 1: leave Julie Andrews alone.
Speaker 2: But to be fair, she also says leave me alone
Speaker 2: my first day.
Speaker 4: Yes, She's like, excuse y'all.
Speaker 2: You are rich?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, gay Org von Trapp. Also the name
Speaker 1: Gaeorg is just it's funny to me. He's played by
Speaker 1: Christopher Plummer. And then we also meet his children, who
Speaker 1: so the captain doesn't really allow to be children. He
Speaker 1: doesn't want them playing or having fun. He treats them
Speaker 1: like they're in boot camp. There's no affection, it's all discipline.
Speaker 1: He has a whistle that he blows at them all
Speaker 1: the time m h. And all of this is very
Speaker 1: appalling to Maria and she's like, no, no, no, I'm going
Speaker 1: to fix this. The children are Lisil who is sixteen,
Speaker 1: Friedrich who's fourteen, Luisa is thirteen, Kurt is eleven, Brigida
Speaker 1: is ten, Marta is seven, and Gretel is five. Some
Speaker 1: of them have distinct personalities, but there's others that I
Speaker 1: couldn't really keep track of. They get kind of lost
Speaker 1: in the shuffle.
Speaker 2: I like how they all have like they're like, I'm
Speaker 2: incorrigible and that they're like, oh, so you're classic ten
Speaker 2: year olds.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he also doesn't know what that means.
Speaker 4: No, they don't know.
Speaker 5: They use big words, and you're like, your father is
Speaker 5: clearly just making you.
Speaker 4: Say these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Captain von Trapp has you reading the dictionary? Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: he really needs a sense of control. I'm excited to
Speaker 2: talk about Captain von Trapp because I feel like the
Speaker 2: way that he's written. At first, he's such a stereotype,
Speaker 2: but then like as it bears out, you're like, I
Speaker 2: don't agree with him, but I understand more. Wow, that's
Speaker 2: what he does.
Speaker 1: Yes, so he steps out of the room, and then
Speaker 1: all of the children try to like clown on Maria
Speaker 1: and they're like bullying her. They put a toad in
Speaker 1: her pocket. It seems like they want her to fail
Speaker 1: like the other governesses have failed. But Maria, she gets
Speaker 1: settled in and then the family sits down for dinner,
Speaker 1: and Maria has a way of making the children feel
Speaker 1: so guilty about how they treated her earlier, and several
Speaker 1: of them start crying at the dinner table. And then
Speaker 1: a telegram arrives for the Captain from his lady love,
Speaker 1: Baroness Schrader, inviting him to Vienna. We will learn that
Speaker 1: he intends to marry the Baroness soon. Also, the telegram
Speaker 1: is delivered by this boy named Rolf, who is Lisal's
Speaker 1: little boyfriend.
Speaker 2: There's one person in this world I hate. It's Rolf.
Speaker 1: Oh Rolf, that motherfucker.
Speaker 4: They really didn't meet him in the show, to be honest. No.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So Liseel goes outside to hang out with Rolf
Speaker 1: and they sing and dance, and that is when we
Speaker 1: get the I am sixteen going on seventeen songs.
Speaker 2: I danced to that in ballet class when I was
Speaker 2: like eight.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know that it was sung by a
Speaker 2: Nazi character at the time. That's another thing that like,
Speaker 2: because the theme of this movie is so intense, but
Speaker 2: all of the songs I feel like exist in the
Speaker 2: popular consciousness out of context where you're like, oh, that's
Speaker 2: kind of a cute, slightly song, and then you're like,
Speaker 2: it's in context even wilder, even worse.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: So then Maria finds out from the housekeeper why Captain
Speaker 1: von Trapp treats the children the way that he does. Basically,
Speaker 1: ever since his wife died, he doesn't want anything in
Speaker 1: the house that reminds him of her, and that's why
Speaker 1: there's no like fun or play or music. Then Lisil
Speaker 1: sneaks back inside from her rendezvous with Rolf via Maria's room,
Speaker 1: but Maria's like, don't worry, I won't knark on you,
Speaker 1: and that allows them to kind of like bond a
Speaker 1: little bit. And then the other kids come into Maria's
Speaker 1: room because they're afraid of the thunderstorm that's happening, and
Speaker 1: so she sings these are a few of my favorite
Speaker 1: things to distract them and make them feel better.
Speaker 4: Great song.
Speaker 1: But then Captain von Trapp comes in to be like,
Speaker 1: what's all this joy and merriment that I'm hearing?
Speaker 2: School of rock vibes? Yeah, Joan cusag bursting and being
Speaker 2: like they're hearing music?
Speaker 1: What is it? So he again he's all about discipline,
Speaker 1: and he wants Maria to find some herself, and she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: fuck this guy.
Speaker 4: If I didn't do it for God, Like, why would
Speaker 4: I do it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why would I do it?
Speaker 4: That was going to Maria's.
Speaker 2: God divorced me. I'm like, I can do it over
Speaker 2: the fuck I want. The worst scenario has occurred.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, She's like, if I'm not doing it for God,
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not doing it for gay Org certainly not okay.
Speaker 1: So Captain von Trapp leaves the following morning to visit
Speaker 1: the Baroness, and Maria uses that opportunity of his absence
Speaker 1: to take the children out and encourage them to play.
Speaker 1: And oh they're laughing, Oh they're frolicking. Oh they're wearing
Speaker 1: clothes that she made them out of old drapes, and
Speaker 1: she also teaches them songs to sing, starting with dough
Speaker 1: a Dear.
Speaker 2: I started crying so much during that sequence, and I
Speaker 2: don't know why. It's so beautiful, like so good, really good. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wasn't expected to start weeping, but look at God.
Speaker 5: I also don't know anybody who doesn't know that song, right,
Speaker 5: Like in the world, I've never met somebody, whether you
Speaker 5: like musicals, whether you don't, wherever you're from like I do,
Speaker 5: I've never met a person who doesn't know that song.
Speaker 5: They might know where it's from, but they know that song.
Speaker 5: And so it's just like the test of time, truly.
Speaker 2: Rogers and hammersiin I like, they had hits. They had hits.
Speaker 2: I have some notes for them, but they had hits.
Speaker 1: Sure is that not? Who did the Brandy Cinderella? They
Speaker 1: did the music and lang?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, And Julie Andrews played that role on TV
Speaker 2: originally that was her first Rogers and Hammerstein outing yes.
Speaker 5: Yep, yeah, yeah, because she started with My Fair Lady.
Speaker 5: And that's why Marnie Nixon is important in the Sound
Speaker 5: of Music. It's because Julie Andrews got snubbed for being
Speaker 5: in the movie of My Fair Lady. They chose Audrey Hepberd,
Speaker 5: who couldn't sing. And I believe that the story is
Speaker 5: that Julie Andrews wanted Marnie Nixon to be in.
Speaker 4: The same movie with her, to be like we can
Speaker 4: both sing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really cool. I love Julie Andrews. She's such
Speaker 2: a beautiful salt. They almost put Audrey Hepburn in this role.
Speaker 2: At one point. Audrey Hepburn was supposed to be in
Speaker 2: this role and they were like, what are we doing here?
Speaker 2: Thank god, she can't sing. No, I love Audrey hepberd
Speaker 2: but like it's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So they're singing about dough a deer, female deer.
Speaker 1: And then also during their outings, the children reveal the
Speaker 1: reason that they were so cruel to the other governesses,
Speaker 1: which is that they were trying to get their father's
Speaker 1: attention because again he's not attentive or affectionate, and they
Speaker 1: just like act out so that he will maybe pay
Speaker 1: attention to them. Then Captain von Trapp returns home with
Speaker 1: Baroness Schrader played by Eleanor Parker, as well as Max
Speaker 1: Dettweiler aka Uncle Max played by Richard Hayden, who is
Speaker 1: scouting a musical group to perform at the Salzburg Folk Festival.
Speaker 1: So his whole thing is like I need to find
Speaker 1: a music group for the festival, and I am very
Speaker 1: centrist in my politics.
Speaker 2: I mean school of rock, Battle of the Bands, Boom done.
Speaker 1: There it is.
Speaker 2: They're low, They're low, the stakes.
Speaker 4: Are high, sticks are high. We got to do it.
Speaker 2: Von Trapp's steaks significantly way higher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but okay. So this is also the part of
Speaker 1: the movie where we start getting hints of the socio
Speaker 1: political climate of the world of this movie. So again,
Speaker 1: it's the late nineteen thirties Europe. Hitler is rising to power,
Speaker 1: which Captain von Trapp opposes. There's also mentions of the Antelus,
Speaker 1: which we can talk about in context corner later on,
Speaker 1: but we get those hints. Then Maria and the children
Speaker 1: return from one of their outings on a boat and
Speaker 1: then they fall into the water with their clothes on,
Speaker 1: and we're like, okay. Leonardo DiCaprio vibes yes, because he's
Speaker 1: always in water in his clothes famously.
Speaker 4: Oh yes.
Speaker 1: Captain von Trapp is like, what the fuck are you
Speaker 1: doing with my kids? And Maria is like, you need
Speaker 1: to let them be children, and you need to love
Speaker 1: them instead of ignore them, because all they want is
Speaker 1: to be loved by you. But he refuses to listen
Speaker 1: to her, and he tries to fire her, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I already got fired by God, so nice, try you
Speaker 1: no worser.
Speaker 2: I do love that she's only sad because she loves
Speaker 2: the kids. She's never like I did a bad job.
Speaker 2: She's just like, well, fuck you, like your kids are
Speaker 2: gonna be miserable. Best of a life. I'm going to
Speaker 2: see if I can get back together with God.
Speaker 1: He kindled my romance with God.
Speaker 4: Get another date with God.
Speaker 1: Okay, So he tries to fire Maria, but then Captain
Speaker 1: von Trapp, here's his children singing that the hills are
Speaker 1: alive with the sound of music to Baroness Schrader, and
Speaker 1: he's like, wow, it's beautiful, and he even joins in singing.
Speaker 2: And he sings eight of us and it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that happens a little bit after, but he's basically like,
Speaker 1: never mind, Maria, you're unfired. I recognize and appreciate what
Speaker 1: you've done for my children.
Speaker 2: But he apologizes, which I was truly shocked. Yeah, a
Speaker 2: man apologizing in a movie in nineteen sixty five. Hello,
Speaker 2: I didn't know what happened.
Speaker 1: Hard to imagine, but it does.
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm horny apology.
Speaker 1: Wow, the Barcelo, it really is so now that he's
Speaker 1: like on board with music. In the household, Maria and
Speaker 1: the children put on a marionette puppet show. They're yodeling. Hih.
Speaker 4: The only.
Speaker 2: Looks fun. The puppets are scary.
Speaker 1: They are so scary looking.
Speaker 2: But I'm loving every second.
Speaker 4: It was so weird. I was like, when did the
Speaker 4: acid trip scene get rid into.
Speaker 1: Truly? Yeah, but you know the father's loving it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's into it, and so is Uncle Max. Uncle Max
Speaker 1: is like, you are the people who I've been looking
Speaker 1: for this whole time to perform in this upcoming Salzburg
Speaker 1: folk festival. Their father isn't too sure. He doesn't want
Speaker 1: them singing in public, but then he's like, well whatever,
Speaker 1: and then this is where he sings the song Adelweiss.
Speaker 1: Then the family throws a party so the captain von
Speaker 1: Trapp can introduce all of his friends to the Baroness.
Speaker 1: But von Trapp is kind of paying more attention to
Speaker 1: Maria than the Baroness, and they dance, and Baroness Trader
Speaker 1: does not like this, and she suggests that Maria and
Speaker 1: the captain are in love with each other, and Maria
Speaker 1: is like, well, I guess it must be true then
Speaker 1: if you said it, in which case it would be
Speaker 1: inappropriate if I stayed here. So Maria packs her bags
Speaker 1: leaves a note.
Speaker 2: This whole thing. I'm like, Maria, Maria, what why.
Speaker 1: Girl?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Weird moment to fall right.
Speaker 1: She's so headstrong, right, she's so outspoken, she's so good
Speaker 1: about speaking her mind. And this time maybe it's because
Speaker 1: like she's just like, damn, I am in love with
Speaker 1: him and I'm supposed to be in love with God
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 2: Like if I'm cheating on God, suckin. Get here.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, So she returns to the convent and the
Speaker 1: children are very sad that Maria is gone, especially because
Speaker 1: she left without saying goodbye, and they don't really know
Speaker 1: why she left. So they go to the convent to
Speaker 1: try to talk to her school of raw, but she's
Speaker 1: in seclusion. She is in seeing or speaking to anyone
Speaker 1: right now, until Maria does finally open up to the
Speaker 1: reverend mother about her feelings for Captain von Trapp. So
Speaker 1: the reverend mother is like, well, then you should go
Speaker 1: back to the von trap house and follow your dreams
Speaker 1: and like, smooch him if you want, and she's like, okay,
Speaker 1: So Maria does.
Speaker 4: Just that till you found your dream.
Speaker 2: And then the crowd is cheering.
Speaker 1: We're cheering, We're cheering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really beautiful. She's so supportive the nuns, I mean,
Speaker 2: and then they cut a Nazi's breaks at the end.
Speaker 4: I'm like, they're just gangs, these ladies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly. So Maria returns to the von trap house
Speaker 1: and they're delighted that she's back, and the captain is
Speaker 1: so happy that she's back that he breaks up with
Speaker 1: the Baroness Schrader and he goes to Maria to be like,
Speaker 1: by the way, I dumped my fiance because I'm in
Speaker 1: love with you, and then the kiss cut to them
Speaker 1: getting married at the convent. And I have also been
Speaker 1: so conditioned to think that a wedding is how a
Speaker 1: movie ends that I thought the movie was over after that,
Speaker 1: but there's like a half hour left where the children
Speaker 1: prepare for their performance at the folk festival that night
Speaker 1: with Uncle Max, and then Nazis come by to be like,
Speaker 1: why isn't Captain von Trapp flying the Nazi flag? You
Speaker 1: know what's going on? With you and your family. And
Speaker 1: then Lisa's boyfriend Rolf, who is like a full blown
Speaker 1: Nazi now, he delivers a telegram to Captain von Trapp,
Speaker 1: summoning him to Berlin, which, as von Trapp says, to
Speaker 1: refuse would be fatal to the family. To accept would
Speaker 1: be unthinkable. So they make plans to flee from Austria
Speaker 1: that night, but Nazis see them trying to escape, so
Speaker 1: the von Traps are like, oh no, We're just going
Speaker 1: to the music festival. So the Nazis follow them there
Speaker 1: and are like hovering over them as they're performing and stuff,
Speaker 1: but they sneak out after their performance. The Nazis continue
Speaker 1: to pursue them, so the von Traps hide at the convent.
Speaker 1: They have a close counter with Rolf, who tries to
Speaker 1: wrap them out, but they managed to run away and
Speaker 1: they escape into the hills which are alive with the
Speaker 1: sound of music. Oh boy, are they the end? You
Speaker 1: did it? I did it. So let's take a quick
Speaker 1: break and we will come back to discuss.
Speaker 2: And we're back.
Speaker 1: We are back, if it's cool.
Speaker 2: I wanted to start with a little context quarter on
Speaker 2: who these damn Von Traps were. Yes, please, because they
Speaker 2: were real, I kind of forget that, to be honest same,
Speaker 2: so obviously this is like, honestly, this was more historically
Speaker 2: accurate than I expected it to be. But there are
Speaker 2: some a couple of significant deviations just from their personal histories,
Speaker 2: the most significant of which was that Maria was like
Speaker 2: sort of forced into a marriage with von Trapp and
Speaker 2: she very much wanted to remain a nun. Most of
Speaker 2: her biography is correct. She was orphaned very young, she
Speaker 2: moved into a convent and then was sent to be
Speaker 2: a governess. But I don't know what the age gap
Speaker 2: between these two actors are. The real life age gap
Speaker 2: was twenty five years. And gay Org went back to
Speaker 2: Mother Superior and was like, hey, I want to marry
Speaker 2: Maria because she's great with my kids, because she did
Speaker 2: absolutely love the kids, and the Mother Superior was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: sure you can marry her. And Maria's like, well, hold on,
Speaker 2: I don't want to, and they were like, sorry, you're
Speaker 2: gonna get married to him. So this whole series of
Speaker 2: adaptations comes from Maria's memoirs, so she is the primary source.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, as with all memoirs, grain of salt,
Speaker 2: but this is how she describes their relationship. I really
Speaker 2: and truly he was not in love. I liked him
Speaker 2: but didn't love him. However, I loved the children, so
Speaker 2: in a way I really married the children, bye and bye.
Speaker 2: I learned to love him more than I have ever
Speaker 2: loved before or after. But she was like not thrilled
Speaker 2: about this marriage.
Speaker 4: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: And then I think like over time became more okay
Speaker 2: with that question mark. But it was like you was
Speaker 2: significantly older than her and she was. She loved his kids,
Speaker 2: but was not crazy about him anyways, So that all
Speaker 2: takes place a lot of the story about you know,
Speaker 2: they start singing, they become this family band, they are
Speaker 2: pressured to join the Nazi party, and then they leave.
Speaker 2: That's all true. The locations and the timeline is quite different.
Speaker 2: I think Maria came into their life like ten years
Speaker 2: before any of this happened. Yeah, but I don't think
Speaker 2: that like the spirit or their decisions weren't changed. Those
Speaker 2: were the actual decisions that they made, sort of turned
Speaker 2: up to a thirteen for movie purposes. There were particulars
Speaker 2: that I didn't like. They were asked to perform at
Speaker 2: Hitler's birthday party.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, I didn't know that. There's some wild stories
Speaker 4: about them, Like.
Speaker 2: I think that the movie maybe gives them a little
Speaker 2: more distance from the center of the Nazi Party than
Speaker 2: was accurate, thankfully. I mean they never do it. They
Speaker 2: do as in the movie they flee Austria, not in secret.
Speaker 2: They are like, hey, we're going to just go be
Speaker 2: in our family band and not join the Nazi Party.
Speaker 2: But while they were touring, the Nazis would use their house.
Speaker 2: The proximity was far closer than I think the movie
Speaker 2: in the show indicates, but the decisions are essentially the same,
Speaker 2: so right.
Speaker 1: There's also some characters who are either like completely fictional
Speaker 1: or fictionalized versions of the real people, and then a
Speaker 1: lot of the events that play out in the movie
Speaker 1: are quite embellished or heightened for dramatic effect. A few
Speaker 1: examples would be that, like the family didn't use that
Speaker 1: folk festival as like a means to escape. They were
Speaker 1: able to like take a train to Italy and then
Speaker 1: like go to London and then eventually the US, but
Speaker 1: they made it seem like they had to like flee
Speaker 1: very urgently for dramatic effect. In the film adaptation, The
Speaker 1: Father was not this like aloof patriarch who disapproved of
Speaker 1: the music.
Speaker 2: He was a sweetheart, and Maria was kind of mean,
Speaker 2: which I thought was fascinating. They were like Maria had
Speaker 2: really severe mood swings and like she was not Julian Andrews.
Speaker 2: She's very human mm hmm.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the children were like their names and their
Speaker 1: ages in the movie are very different from who those
Speaker 1: real people were, and they're just kind of like, not
Speaker 1: super based on the real children. Also, there were younger
Speaker 1: children who were the children of Maria and Gaeor.
Speaker 2: There was like ten of them total in real life.
Speaker 5: I think one of them still operate the chap family
Speaker 5: Lodge in like still Vermont.
Speaker 4: Her grandchild runs it because of.
Speaker 5: How young her children were, you know what I mean,
Speaker 5: Like her grandchild right now is still alive enough to
Speaker 5: run the family lodge.
Speaker 2: This is like I have a whole day. Anytime someone
Speaker 2: is buying like your book or your rights from you,
Speaker 2: chances are you're gonna get fucked over. Because the von
Speaker 2: Trapp family does not actually end up making a lot
Speaker 2: of money off of the sound of music because Maria
Speaker 2: didn't catch something in the contract. Basically, they didn't get
Speaker 2: kicked back on any of this, So that's like why
Speaker 2: they run the von Trapp Lodge and like find ways
Speaker 2: to capitalize on there because this was like one of
Speaker 2: the most highest grossing movies of all time. Yes, and
Speaker 2: they got nothing and they weren't consulted.
Speaker 4: They won Best Picture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sucks. I feel like that happens every like
Speaker 2: almost every single time. You know, the powers that be
Speaker 2: fied a way to fuck you over for sure.
Speaker 1: And then I guess, just to provide some historical context
Speaker 1: for the world that this movie takes place in, so
Speaker 1: there's references to the Anschluss, which was the annexation of
Speaker 1: the federal state of Austria into the German Reich, which
Speaker 1: happened on May thirteenth, nineteen thirty eight. So the idea
Speaker 1: was that there would be this united Austria and Germany.
Speaker 1: They would like come together to form a quote unquote
Speaker 1: Greater Germany. The idea of this arose in the eighteen seventies.
Speaker 1: By the nineteen twenties, the idea of this unification had
Speaker 1: strong support from both Austria and Germany, particularly to like
Speaker 1: people on like the political left as well as the center.
Speaker 1: But like it was like kind of a leftist movement
Speaker 1: for Austrians. But then when Hitler rose to power in Germany,
Speaker 1: this unification became like a very Nazi you know that
Speaker 1: there were all these like Nazi overtones with it because
Speaker 1: Hitler was like, I'm trying to basically incorporate as many
Speaker 1: like ethnic Germans who were outside of Germany into Greater Germany.
Speaker 1: So he was trying to like basically make this like
Speaker 1: super German knee country, and that's why he was in
Speaker 1: favor of it. And von Chrapp was very opposed to
Speaker 1: the Nazi Party, so that's why even though he was
Speaker 1: like a naval captain and stuff like that, he was
Speaker 1: just like, I'm out of here. I'm getting my family
Speaker 1: out of here, and so that's why they like fled
Speaker 1: and eventually ended up in the US. So that was
Speaker 1: stuff that I didn't even know about, So just sharing
Speaker 1: for anyone who didn't know. I'm by no means a historian,
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the history of Austria. But
Speaker 1: I learned all this stuff and we're sharing it with
Speaker 1: the listeners in case they needed to know.
Speaker 5: And it's kind of crazy because where I've actually done
Speaker 5: a lot.
Speaker 4: Of work with them.
Speaker 5: It's really funny the German and Austrian left political parties
Speaker 5: now and it's crazy to I've still never been to
Speaker 5: Austria and if I go, like I would totally like
Speaker 5: I would find the von Trap House and cry and
Speaker 5: the fountain near Joe Raymie, like I would just recreate
Speaker 5: everything by myself with outfits that I make out of
Speaker 5: my window curtains. You know, I'm necessarily like that is
Speaker 5: my life goal and husband. But it's interesting because like
Speaker 5: right now in Germany there is this far right party
Speaker 5: called the day Aft for sure, but you know, and
Speaker 5: in Austria and they keep growing every year and they're
Speaker 5: legitimate descendants from Nazi parties like folks who have you know.
Speaker 4: They just transformed their names and all that stuff.
Speaker 5: So it's kind of it is wild that such a
Speaker 5: globally popular film.
Speaker 4: And obviously an era of time that we.
Speaker 5: Are always talk about and it is crucial to history.
Speaker 5: It's just crazy that the places where this was really
Speaker 5: birth or Nazism.
Speaker 4: Was birthed and popularized.
Speaker 5: Disgustingly so are seeing a resurgence and this far right
Speaker 5: as we're speaking, which is totally my blowing at the moment.
Speaker 2: The last thing I wanted to just conclude about the
Speaker 2: historical that's something that because all the biographies of the
Speaker 2: kids and the ages were sort of skewed as a
Speaker 2: result to make the storyline work. The eldest son at
Speaker 2: the time they actually fled Austria was a doctor who
Speaker 2: resigned in protest after all of the Jewish doctors at
Speaker 2: his firm were fired, And so in the movie, because
Speaker 2: of the facts that have been changed, it's made to
Speaker 2: seem like it was like strictly Von Trapp being like, okay,
Speaker 2: it's time to go. But because the kids were actually
Speaker 2: working adults, or many of them were, at the time
Speaker 2: that they left, it was a very collective effort of
Speaker 2: like here's what I'm seeing in my corner of the world,
Speaker 2: and like we can't stay here anymore. In general, I mean,
Speaker 2: there's a lot that's been changed, but I feel like
Speaker 2: with adaptations it's like, well, how's the message and like
Speaker 2: demonstrative acts of what happened been changed? And here the
Speaker 2: answer is no. I mean, there's stuff that's been changed
Speaker 2: and movie fied. I think that honestly, the most damning
Speaker 2: thing that's changed is that Maria didn't want to marry
Speaker 2: Von Trapp.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But as far as like what their political stances were.
Speaker 2: By all accounts, it seems like that holds true because
Speaker 2: I'm always nervous in watching stuff like this where it's like, well, actually, no,
Speaker 2: they got out, but it wasn't for the reasons you
Speaker 2: would think kind of thing. But they they actually they
Speaker 2: held the line and started a band, so I'm good
Speaker 2: for them. And then like later in their family history,
Speaker 2: they would send a lot of money back to Austria
Speaker 2: to help rebuild and support people. So they seemed like
Speaker 2: real ones. Shout out to my friend the von Trapp family,
Speaker 2: and I think a lot of them live in Pittsburgh
Speaker 2: now and I love.
Speaker 1: Western Pennsylvania represent.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 1: The characters being very fictionalized and their characterizations being very
Speaker 1: different from who they actually were as far as personality
Speaker 1: goes makes it easier for us, because anytime we've covered
Speaker 1: like a biopic, it's always just like, how exactly do
Speaker 1: we discuss this, or at least the characters because they're
Speaker 1: based on real people. But in this case, like so
Speaker 1: much is fictionalized as far as the character's personalities that
Speaker 1: it makes our discussion a little bit easier, especially considering
Speaker 1: like the reframing of the relationship between Captain von Trapp
Speaker 1: and Maria for the sake of the adaptation being reframed
Speaker 1: as like this whirlwind romance versus like a forced marriage
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Like essentially, Yeah, So as far as
Speaker 1: the character of Maria goes, I mean, it's Julie Andrews.
Speaker 1: So she's just inherently lovable and so sweet and so patient.
Speaker 1: And I don't even know exactly what I want to
Speaker 1: say about the character. But you know, she like gets
Speaker 1: the children to be this musical troupe. But a lot
Speaker 1: of also what she does is that she has to
Speaker 1: like help a father learn the lesson that he should
Speaker 1: love his children via music.
Speaker 2: Well, I see, I think that's an oversimplification.
Speaker 1: I mean, for sure, but my.
Speaker 2: Thing is like that is on its face true. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna come to the Captain's defense here because I do
Speaker 2: feel like within the story and also like the fact
Speaker 2: that that is not what happened in real life, she
Speaker 2: was kind of cranky and he was very affectionate with
Speaker 2: his kids. But in any case, in the world of
Speaker 2: this story, I feel like we are shown a very
Speaker 2: like rigid parent archetype. But I feel like over the
Speaker 2: course of the movie, it is teased out why he's
Speaker 2: behaving that way. He doesn't need to be taught to
Speaker 2: love his children, He needs to be taught to navigate
Speaker 2: his own grief feelings. And is that Maria's job?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No, But I also think that that's not her goal either.
Speaker 2: Her goal is to be a good guardian to this kid.
Speaker 2: Her goal is to do a good job. Like I
Speaker 2: thought this kind of averted a lot of the stereotypes
Speaker 2: that you see in this sort of movie, because she's
Speaker 2: just like, I care about the kids. I will openly
Speaker 2: defy you to take care of the kids. Like your
Speaker 2: takeaway can be whatever it is, but like I'm as
Speaker 2: long as I'm working here, I'm going to act in
Speaker 2: their best in try right. Yeah, And then he gets
Speaker 2: on board.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: And I think that the thing that for me that
Speaker 5: was always trivial about Maria is like she for the
Speaker 5: whole movie, she's like, I am my independent person. And
Speaker 5: in the movie they add the song I Have confidence.
Speaker 5: It's not in the musical. But the thing that's so
Speaker 5: funny is that like she doesn't really listen to Georg,
Speaker 5: she doesn't listen to sometimes she doesn't listen to mother Abbess,
Speaker 5: or sometimes she does, but the person she listens to
Speaker 5: they have very little screen time, is the Baroness.
Speaker 4: And on one hand, for the history of movie.
Speaker 5: Making, I'm like, you know what she's listening to at
Speaker 5: least a woman.
Speaker 4: And like just a band or you know all that stuff.
Speaker 4: The other hand, I'm like, why does it have to
Speaker 4: be a rich woman?
Speaker 5: Like why is like, out of all of the people,
Speaker 5: couldn't they have just made it a different character. But
Speaker 5: I just that's something that's most trivial to me. It's like,
Speaker 5: out of all people you listen to, like that moment
Speaker 5: just doesn't make sense because of the very few moments
Speaker 5: they have together.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, I'm still like, well, why.
Speaker 2: Like why the Baroness character is all over the place
Speaker 2: to be? I don't quite get her because it's like
Speaker 2: she kind of rolls in, reminding me of like Meredith
Speaker 2: from The Parent Trap, where she's like, I'm your new
Speaker 2: blonde mother, and like here I am. I seem like
Speaker 2: I might be up to no good. But then it
Speaker 2: turns out and she kind of is up to no good.
Speaker 2: But then at the I don't know, she tells this
Speaker 2: huge lie that I still don't buy. Maria falling for
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, you love him, so you have to
Speaker 2: go and get out of my way. So she does
Speaker 2: something like emotionally evil, but then she like lets him
Speaker 2: go so easily. She's like, all right, I guess I know,
Speaker 2: and I've been vested. See you later. And then she
Speaker 2: pops out of the movie and I was like, do
Speaker 2: you do you care about this relationship or not? Like
Speaker 2: I don't understand what her end game is.
Speaker 1: It was one of those like you're not firing me,
Speaker 1: I quit because we're like.
Speaker 4: She quit fired the family.
Speaker 1: I interpreted that is like she wouldn't let her ego
Speaker 1: be damaged by being broken up with. So she's like,
Speaker 1: you actually were never the right man for me, and
Speaker 1: that's why I'm leaving, and that's why I've decided actually
Speaker 1: that we're breaking up.
Speaker 2: And I've done that before, but actually I this It
Speaker 2: was my idea and.
Speaker 1: It tracks to me with who she's established to be,
Speaker 1: because like, sure, I think a lesser movie would have
Speaker 1: made her just like very one dimensionally evil a lah
Speaker 1: Billy z Ain in Titanic or something like that.
Speaker 2: Her hands off my fiance, and.
Speaker 1: She is definitely presented as like an obstacle for Maria
Speaker 1: and she is certainly manipulative in different moments, but you
Speaker 1: also like see her try to make an effort with
Speaker 1: the children, and she does seem to be quite affectionate
Speaker 1: toward Captain von Trapp, so like she has qualities that
Speaker 1: to me make her feel like a more well rounded person.
Speaker 1: I'm not a good person, not someone you'd want to
Speaker 1: hang out with, but like someone who has dimension. And
Speaker 1: I was like a little surprised because.
Speaker 2: She's better than you think she's gonna be, right, even
Speaker 2: though she does the one evil thing.
Speaker 1: She does the evil thing, And I was confused when
Speaker 1: she was first appearing on screen and she has like
Speaker 1: a little sidebar with Uncle Max, and I was like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, Okay, she's like there to try to
Speaker 1: marry Van Trapp to take his money, but then she's like,
Speaker 1: but I'm rich and so I don't need I have
Speaker 1: my own money. And then Max is like, yeah, rich
Speaker 1: people should marry each other so they can also stay
Speaker 1: rich together, and poor people can stay poor.
Speaker 4: Like isn't that what happens already?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right?
Speaker 2: I was like that the whole seems to be the play,
Speaker 2: but the whole history of the world.
Speaker 1: Right, So I was confused. At first, because I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's like scheming to take his money. But then I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: that's not even what's happening. So she's a little bit
Speaker 1: she's more nuanced than I would have expected. And you know,
Speaker 1: you mentioned Meredith from The Parent Trap, who is like
Speaker 1: pretty one dimensionally evil, and yeah, this movie like doesn't
Speaker 1: take that character in that direction. She's like, yeah, she's
Speaker 1: got a little more nuance to her.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't seem like the kids hate her. They
Speaker 2: just don't like her as much as they like Maria, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: which is fine. I don't know, I think, honestly, that's
Speaker 2: a really good point. And maybe I'm just more like
Speaker 2: bugged by. I'm like, why did Maria fall for her trick?
Speaker 2: But that's just a reaction to how much I love
Speaker 2: Maria's character. Like she is, so it's like effortless the
Speaker 2: way that like I was reading a couple of essays
Speaker 2: just about the character of Maria and how like this
Speaker 2: movie presents becoming like a parent as an active choice,
Speaker 2: and I feel like we're so often told that, like
Speaker 2: women are expected to be parents and to be inherently
Speaker 2: nurturing and to be all this stuff, which I think
Speaker 2: there are counterpoints to in the movie, because that's not
Speaker 2: who the Baroness is. She's doing her best, but like
Speaker 2: it's not quite cooking. Maria loves these kids and like
Speaker 2: is choosing to be there. It's not expected of her,
Speaker 2: and she's like making an active effort to want to
Speaker 2: do that, and like her norm is also her active choice,
Speaker 2: which is like she wanted to be a nun. But
Speaker 2: then it's like, I just really I like how much
Speaker 2: space she has within the story, and it's still very
Speaker 2: much of its time, Like there's only so many she
Speaker 2: can't become a doctor, like you know, the stuff that
Speaker 2: our options to many women today aren't available to her.
Speaker 2: But I really liked that she is so active. There's
Speaker 2: literally a song about how she's confident, yes, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't feel like it just feels completely in stuck with
Speaker 2: who she is, and the fact that she's loved for
Speaker 2: those qualities is the coolest. I just love her, And.
Speaker 5: I think it's also just like speaking to like who
Speaker 5: Julie Andrews is, Like if you think about all of
Speaker 5: the roles, she's hot, like you know Mary Poppins and
Speaker 5: My Fair Lady, Eliza Doolittle unbrought like you know in
Speaker 5: the original, like all of these are for the time period,
Speaker 5: compared to the Damsel and the Distressed on Jeenew's of
Speaker 5: fifties and sixties musicals, like they are actually pretty radical
Speaker 5: for the time where you know, you compare that with
Speaker 5: the roles that Shirley mcclaan used to play in Oklahoma
Speaker 5: or in Carousel and all these Rogers and Hammerside musicals,
Speaker 5: same things too, right, And it just to me, it
Speaker 5: was just something like and it continued throughout Julie Andrews's career.
Speaker 5: She was Victor, Victoria all of these like she could
Speaker 5: have been the Damsel in distress Angenoux. She's got that
Speaker 5: beautiful face, she's small body, right, like all these things
Speaker 5: that were very popular for that at the time. But
Speaker 5: she really was like a no, I'm going to play
Speaker 5: roles that aren't just the traditional you know woman.
Speaker 1: All at the Yeah, and don't forget her most iconic
Speaker 1: role of all time, which of course is her voicing
Speaker 1: the Queen in Shrek Too. Oh yeah, yes, Princess Diary
Speaker 1: is sure to me that pales in comparison to the
Speaker 1: Queen Fiona's mom and Shrek Too and beyond.
Speaker 2: It's true, it's the best thing. Here is something I
Speaker 2: wrote down at one am last night. In the Sound
Speaker 2: of Music, Maria is a Montessori teacher called by God,
Speaker 2: and in Mary Poppins, Julie Andrews is a Montessori teacher
Speaker 2: who's also a wizard.
Speaker 1: Yeah again, they're very similar movies, and that Julie Andrews
Speaker 1: is summoned to care for children. I want to go
Speaker 1: back to the her being duped basically by the baroness.
Speaker 2: Yea, what's going on there? Please please help me get there?
Speaker 1: I don't know. And because this is not at all
Speaker 1: how it played out in real life for Maria, it's like,
Speaker 1: obviously this was completely fabricated for the sake of the
Speaker 1: musical in the movie. I can't speak to Catholic guilt
Speaker 1: from experience, but part of me is like, Okay, maybe
Speaker 1: she thinks, like she's a nun, she shouldn't have these,
Speaker 1: like sure, like this shame romantic feelings for a mortal man.
Speaker 1: And she probably does actually have those feelings in the
Speaker 1: context of this movie because she has watched Von Trapp,
Speaker 1: you know, lighten up and be more affectionate toward his children,
Speaker 1: and he's also appreciating her for her efforts, like he
Speaker 1: doesn't at first, but he then realizes like, wow, she
Speaker 1: has done a lot for my family and my children,
Speaker 1: like and he expressed his gratitude about that. He apologizes
Speaker 1: for being shitty earlier, and so I can kind of
Speaker 1: see why she would maybe develop feelings for him. And
Speaker 1: then when someone points this out and she realizes like damn,
Speaker 1: maybe she's right. But because she has all of this,
Speaker 1: like none guilt, she's like, oh my god, it is
Speaker 1: so inappropriate. If I'm here falling in love with this man,
Speaker 1: I should leave. So I don't know if that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sort of projecting maybe I'm on board.
Speaker 4: I'm on board. I grew up a Catholic, and so
Speaker 4: I can speak from cath.
Speaker 1: You can speak better than I can.
Speaker 4: Then, yes, no, that makes sense. I've never thought about
Speaker 4: it like that.
Speaker 5: But as soon as he said I was like, oh,
Speaker 5: it totally makes sense, because like both nuns and also
Speaker 5: extremely religious Catholics who like, maybe I've never had a
Speaker 5: partner in their life because they're saying that their partner
Speaker 5: is God, Like I know some of them and my
Speaker 5: family that were just like I'm never gonna.
Speaker 4: My only partner I need is jod you know. And so.
Speaker 5: I do think that that's a real that is a
Speaker 5: real thing, especially at the time period where you don't
Speaker 5: second guess another woman saying, you know, saying that.
Speaker 4: To you as well. But I also think that like,
Speaker 4: is that just like the duped part.
Speaker 5: I think part of it is that, like she doesn't
Speaker 5: want to be in the way of what is best
Speaker 5: for the children, and she probably just thinks that if
Speaker 5: there's some mother figure there and Bareness is not it's
Speaker 5: not Meredith from parent trap.
Speaker 4: If there's some mother figure there is, there's.
Speaker 5: Somebody who can take Captain von Trapp out of his
Speaker 5: like grief, then they're fine and she's done her job.
Speaker 5: So that could also be a part of it too,
Speaker 5: like plus the guilt being like, you know what.
Speaker 4: All I want to make sure the children are good.
Speaker 4: She's not evil to them, she's not mean to them.
Speaker 5: She's not as badass as I am, but maybe they'll
Speaker 5: be straight right, And so I think that's also a
Speaker 5: part of it, where it's like, oh yeah, wait a second,
Speaker 5: maybe I will make this more complicated, you know what,
Speaker 5: Like a situation's already messy and you're like I'm gonna
Speaker 5: do the Homer Simpson meme and.
Speaker 4: So yeah, that could be a part of it too.
Speaker 2: That makes total sense. Okay, Wow, I'm glad we're doing
Speaker 2: this right well.
Speaker 1: Especially because I think it's the scene of her like
Speaker 1: first night in the house and she's praying, and that's
Speaker 1: when she's like, God, bless what's his name? Which is
Speaker 1: so funny, but she's kind of praying and she's like
Speaker 1: vocalizing that she realizes her like divine purpose for at
Speaker 1: least this chunk of time is to prepare the family
Speaker 1: for their new mother, because she already knows that the
Speaker 1: Baroness and von Trapp are like betrothed. So she's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll just like be the governess until this like mother
Speaker 1: comes in marries into the family and kind of like
Speaker 1: replaces my role as mother figures right.
Speaker 2: She sees herself as like a stop gap kind of Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she doesn't expect to fall in love. I gotta say
Speaker 2: I like their relationship. It's a relationship that girl and
Speaker 2: is based on mutual respect. It's not perfect, there is, certainly,
Speaker 2: and I do think that the expectation that he has
Speaker 2: to be ushered through his own grief. There's a gendered
Speaker 2: way to view that, and I also think that that's
Speaker 2: what a good partner does too, So I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm like, it is so hard to get me on
Speaker 2: board with like a romantic relationship in an older movie,
Speaker 2: but this is like way better than I expected. The
Speaker 2: exchange with them, where she, I think, is coming from
Speaker 2: like she's just been let go. She's coming from that
Speaker 2: shame based place where she's like, I'm far too outspoken,
Speaker 2: It's one of my worst faults. And he's like, no, wrong,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, you were doing the right thing. I feel like,
Speaker 2: within the context of the movie, like she is challenging
Speaker 2: his views on like what a woman can do and
Speaker 2: what someone with less resources with him can do, and
Speaker 2: like he's actually taking the note and being like I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: and like Maria is demonstrably like changing my kid's life.
Speaker 2: Let's get on board. I like it.
Speaker 5: What I'll say about Captain ron Chapp is like, there
Speaker 5: is this I know a lot of folks talk about
Speaker 5: or how I talked about it being very gendered and stuff,
Speaker 5: and I kind of look at it, especially because he's
Speaker 5: in the military, is like he needs something to fight for,
Speaker 5: he needs something to stay alive for and a lot
Speaker 5: like a live personality and soul wise, and he not
Speaker 5: only gets it in the sense of seeing his children
Speaker 5: alive and seeing them not also acting on in some
Speaker 5: ways with Maria, but he also gets it because he's
Speaker 5: fighting against something that he doesn't believe in, which is
Speaker 5: like NAZII and fascism in that way, right, Like there
Speaker 5: are subtle hints throughout it, and I think that part
Speaker 5: of like I don't think that that was just Maria
Speaker 5: that did that for him, right, or Maria's responsibility. It's
Speaker 5: like what the movie shows. It's just like the way
Speaker 5: the music in the movie are written. It's just like
Speaker 5: he did need something to fight for. And that's why
Speaker 5: when he sings in a vice at the end, it's
Speaker 5: just like one of the like I never or not cry,
Speaker 5: Like there's just like I never ever ever not cry.
Speaker 5: I'm even like now I'm like, no, no, you're not
Speaker 5: gonna cry.
Speaker 2: I cry every episode.
Speaker 4: But it's just like like the journey for him.
Speaker 5: As when you think also about soldiers at that time,
Speaker 5: the historical context of like a lot of these nation
Speaker 5: states being fairly new because they were like you know,
Speaker 5: there's the Austrio, Hungarian umpire, like also all these folks
Speaker 5: being like I have a country to believe in, I
Speaker 5: have a family to believe in. I have all this
Speaker 5: stuff to believe in. And you know, your wife dies
Speaker 5: and then you're seeing the rise of the Nazi Party,
Speaker 5: which you're trying to ignore it. So I just feel
Speaker 5: like all of that overwhelming stuff, she was able to
Speaker 5: kind of be like wake up because the world was
Speaker 5: also happening around her. And I think he saw that
Speaker 5: as example, not as like it's your job to do this,
Speaker 5: but like, oh, if she can do this, if she
Speaker 5: can live in this world and look at the bright
Speaker 5: side regardless of what's happening, and like, yeah, that's why.
Speaker 5: At the end, it's just like you know what, Like
Speaker 5: that's where it gets to me.
Speaker 4: A lot of the times.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: It's really nice. I do feel like in Act too.
Speaker 2: I feel this way about Active every musical. The ending
Speaker 2: is tremendous and like amazing. I do feel like Maria's
Speaker 2: role in the movie is pulled back a little bit
Speaker 2: after she's married, which I think we see and with
Speaker 2: some frequency this is like not the worst offender. It's
Speaker 2: not like she disappears from the plot, but she is
Speaker 2: less active because the focus. Once they're together, the focus
Speaker 2: shifts to their escape, which is more driven at least
Speaker 2: in this story by Captain von Trapp, So we sort
Speaker 2: of shifts focused towards the end, which I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't really have a suggestion for how
Speaker 2: that could have been rectified, but I did. I'd never
Speaker 2: noticed that in previous viewings. Not the worst offender, but
Speaker 2: it was something I picked that by.
Speaker 1: I feel like you could just make a few quick
Speaker 1: writing slash dialogue changes to make some of the things
Speaker 1: her idea.
Speaker 2: Yes right, which was like historically true, It's like it
Speaker 2: was more of a collective decision, right right, Like when
Speaker 2: he gets the telegram and he's like to refuse this
Speaker 2: would be bad.
Speaker 1: But also under no circumstances would I ever return to
Speaker 1: Germany and be complicit in this Nazi movement. If she's like, okay,
Speaker 1: well let's pack up and leave tonight, like if it's
Speaker 1: her proposing that, and then if it's her, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: different things like she does jump in when they get
Speaker 1: caught by the Nazis outside as they're like pushing the
Speaker 1: car out of the driveway, and she chimes in a
Speaker 1: little bit, but if she was a little bit more
Speaker 1: active in that conversation, different things like that could have
Speaker 1: made her more active and just shown that like, oh,
Speaker 1: she fully understands what's happening, and she's going to be
Speaker 1: a very active participant in this escape. But yeah, the
Speaker 1: movie definitely does scale back on her active participation in
Speaker 1: a way that doesn't make sense because she's the protagonist
Speaker 1: of the movie, so like, yeah, you need to keep
Speaker 1: her active throughout.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I wish there.
Speaker 5: Would have been some plotting a little bit also, Like
Speaker 5: you could have had some plotting with like the nuns,
Speaker 5: like how they I mean, they went back to the abbey,
Speaker 5: but that could have even been explored more too, because
Speaker 5: they came back and a bunch of scenes in Act one,
Speaker 5: but then they're really just left at the very end
Speaker 5: of both the movie and the musical, and it's like
Speaker 5: the movie is really just like a pinch in the air.
Speaker 5: The musical has it a little bit tossed out more
Speaker 5: because musicals.
Speaker 4: Often do that.
Speaker 5: But I think that they could have even had like
Speaker 5: Maria plotting with the nuns, yeah, to do that stuff, right,
Speaker 5: like even if that was so completely fictional, that still
Speaker 5: would have made it her character stronger, and then the
Speaker 5: bond as well of sisterhood. Literally, like the nuns do
Speaker 5: a badass thing and it's amazing, and it's also kind
Speaker 5: of like people forget that they did that because it
Speaker 5: wasn't a big thing in the movie, right, like yeah,
Speaker 5: and so it could have just been more explored so
Speaker 5: that that scene had more of an act, I think totally.
Speaker 2: And the fact that, like the nuns politics are revealed
Speaker 2: to us, but up until that point we're not really
Speaker 2: given a lot of information of like how do they
Speaker 2: feel about the changing landscape around them? That would be
Speaker 2: like a really that I'm sure the primary you know,
Speaker 2: resources exist for that would have been a really fascinating
Speaker 2: thing to view as well as I think that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: like the movie gets a little bit myopic with like
Speaker 2: Captain von Trapp's journey towards the end, especially now having
Speaker 2: read that like the children were actually mostly adults and
Speaker 2: were extremely anti Nazi, like it would have been. I
Speaker 2: think that Lisel is really kind of our only significant
Speaker 2: in and like, holy shit, what is going on around me?
Speaker 2: I refuse to participate, which is done through a romantic relationship.
Speaker 2: I don't know that feels very smaltzy and hm. But
Speaker 2: at least you have one of the kids interaction with it.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for the most part, that whole arc is
Speaker 2: reserved strictly for von Trapp, where I think it would
Speaker 2: have been interesting to see. Yeah, I guess which you
Speaker 2: see more of in Cabaret of like, how are individuals processing, ignoring,
Speaker 2: challenging this fiscistic movement that they're surrounded by, you know,
Speaker 2: can't relate, But yeah, I mean I think that, like
Speaker 2: it would have been interesting. Liesel is our only end
Speaker 2: and it's not. I don't love that in for us
Speaker 2: is like, oh no, my boyfriend is a Nazi. No.
Speaker 2: I feel like there's a better way to make that
Speaker 2: same point. And I think it's instructive to watch Lisel.
Speaker 2: You know, have to have a political awakening as a teenager.
Speaker 2: That's a very relatable thing. I just didn't love the
Speaker 2: way that it was done. It felt very written by
Speaker 2: a man way of showing that political awakening.
Speaker 1: Yes. What I did love though, is when not that
Speaker 1: I love her kissing a Nazi boy, but after she
Speaker 1: does kiss Wealth toward the beginning, she goes wee, that
Speaker 1: was kind of fun, And that is how I react
Speaker 1: every time I kiss a man.
Speaker 2: Also, I like, I mean, I like Lisla and Maria's
Speaker 2: relationship too. I think it's very sweet. I like all
Speaker 2: the kids. I mean the kids, Yeah, some of them
Speaker 2: kind of blend into each other. Yeah, but I like
Speaker 2: the family. Yeah, Lisel. I wish that there could have
Speaker 2: been more, not even more real estate and the story
Speaker 2: dedicated to her, but just like a little more detail
Speaker 2: and like less focus on the romantic relationship and more
Speaker 2: like what do they say outside the house? What are
Speaker 2: they being shielded?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 2: I'd be really curious to know what various drafts this
Speaker 2: went through, because obviously it's been significantly changed from the
Speaker 2: source material because none of it happened that way. But
Speaker 2: the fact that Rogers and Hammersigin are two Jewish composers
Speaker 2: that are adapting, you know, this anti Nazi story. The
Speaker 2: screenwriter of this movie was also a Jewish writer, Ernest Lehman,
Speaker 2: who wrote so many famous movies. He also wrote west
Speaker 2: Side's Story. He was like really good at adapting. He
Speaker 2: did west Side Story, he did this, He did Who's
Speaker 2: Afraid of Virginia Woolf one of my favorite its. So
Speaker 2: you have like a lot of Jewish voices involved in
Speaker 2: this production, but not Jewish women, which I think you
Speaker 2: can sort of feel and like stuff like the loose
Speaker 2: threads like the Lesal story were like what is the
Speaker 2: teenage girl gonna do date a teenage boy? Done? Like
Speaker 2: du where teenage girls are doing so many nefarious things
Speaker 2: and you don't know unless you've done it.
Speaker 5: It's wild because for who they are, it's like on
Speaker 5: the spectrum of like who was writing musicals in the
Speaker 5: nineteen fifties and sixties, like Rogers and hammerscign definitely had.
Speaker 4: For how popular they were.
Speaker 5: Also for Oscar you know, he was on I think
Speaker 5: McCarthy's lists because he was associated with communists and socialists
Speaker 5: back in the United States back in the days, and
Speaker 5: then he had to, like many people be like, oh,
Speaker 5: I'm not really with them and figure out ways to
Speaker 5: support the movements here in different ways. But for those folks,
Speaker 5: like they're always to me, I'm always like, oh.
Speaker 4: I love it, I love it.
Speaker 5: Like there's you know what I mean where they're like
Speaker 5: almost there, like Anna and the King and I really
Speaker 5: interesting story also a true story, you know, or like
Speaker 5: Anna was a real person, right and she like landed
Speaker 5: in Staten Island at some point.
Speaker 4: All these Stetn Island intersections are just my.
Speaker 1: Favorite Madam's webs and connects them all madams webs.
Speaker 5: Yes, and so like all of these things like South Pacific,
Speaker 5: Like there are these women in these really interesting historical
Speaker 5: moments that before that time are never really talked about
Speaker 5: at all, right, like women were just there to be
Speaker 5: the wives, and so they are a little bit more complex.
Speaker 4: And then also you like it's.
Speaker 5: Like one of the things where you're run running, runing,
Speaker 5: You're like, yeah, keep going, and it's like slows down
Speaker 5: halfway through because they can't go the full way, and
Speaker 5: it's it sucks. But I'm also like it was the
Speaker 5: time period. Oh but it sucks.
Speaker 4: I'm like, do we make modern versions of this or
Speaker 4: we just leave it alone? I don't know.
Speaker 5: I just think about that all the time when I
Speaker 5: think about the works of Rogers and Hammerstein totally.
Speaker 2: And then there's certain I mean, while this is a
Speaker 2: terrific adaptation, Brandy Cinderella is still undefeated best Rogers and
Speaker 2: Hammerstein adaptation, and we're not taking alternate opinions all that,
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4: There is no alternate opinion some of.
Speaker 2: Their work has aged great, but like a huge chunk
Speaker 2: of their catalog absolutely hasn't. I mean, they're still doing
Speaker 2: revivals of these shows. And I know that it's not impossible.
Speaker 2: I didn't see it because I don't live in New York,
Speaker 2: but I know that Oklahoma recently had a makeover. It
Speaker 2: was so good, right, so it's like it is possible.
Speaker 2: But yeah, like I don't know the answer to your
Speaker 2: question of like is it worth it? I don't know.
Speaker 2: It seemed like in the case of Oklahoma it was.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's certain things. It's just so in
Speaker 2: the dna of the musical that you're like, lovely songs.
Speaker 4: But flower drum song, Like no, no, no, there's you.
Speaker 5: Can't just change like half of the songs being like
Speaker 5: literally having the words oriental in it and like being
Speaker 5: about orient and you're just like, no, there's no.
Speaker 2: There's no coming back from that.
Speaker 4: Also, they never even.
Speaker 5: Lived in San Francisco, so I'm just like, why are
Speaker 5: you writing in San Francisco?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And there's never really been an attempt to
Speaker 2: make the sound of music again is that was this
Speaker 2: adapted again?
Speaker 1: Unless you count School of Rock.
Speaker 2: I mean, which I am realizing that the Nazis of
Speaker 2: School of Rock are the rich parents.
Speaker 1: Oh well, there you go. I mean, where's the lie.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I think it's perfect.
Speaker 1: It's one. We should just call it there.
Speaker 4: That's it. Then the remake of the Sound of Music
Speaker 4: was the school. I don't think that they could do
Speaker 4: it though, I feel.
Speaker 5: Like it would be too I mean they you know,
Speaker 5: they tried the stage adaptation with Carrie Underwood for the
Speaker 5: live right.
Speaker 4: Oh god, tragic. I was feeling tragic, but there's like,
Speaker 4: there's no I don't.
Speaker 5: Think there's ways to do it because it's also so specific.
Speaker 5: I think Oklahoma is like it is specific, but also
Speaker 5: like it's just like Oklahoma's being a new state is
Speaker 5: kind of in the background right when you could remake it,
Speaker 5: as opposed to like you can't you know, the Nazi
Speaker 5: thing is essential to the story. But also this film
Speaker 5: is getting banned in schools, like being played in school district,
Speaker 5: which is absurd. I don't know if you Also, the
Speaker 5: Texas thing is just like people were like, we can't
Speaker 5: show that because they're like, we can't talk about Nazism
Speaker 5: in schools. But it was like the right wing from
Speaker 5: a right wing perspective where they basically didn't want people
Speaker 5: to think that Nazism was inherently a bad thing, but
Speaker 5: they knew they couldn't say that. And I was just
Speaker 5: like watching these parents testimony being like, what they won't
Speaker 5: show it and they won't do it as a school play.
Speaker 2: That's fucking terrifying, Like for all of the like nitpicking
Speaker 2: that is valid to do for this movie, like its
Speaker 2: core message is I don't know, it's so scary to think,
Speaker 2: like when I know for sure that like a substitute
Speaker 2: teacher threw this on for us at some point, and
Speaker 2: it was just like the message of it is so indisputable.
Speaker 2: The fact that it's discussed that way now is like, well,
Speaker 2: you know it's an older movie. Maybe their anti Nazi
Speaker 2: stance wasn't totally spot on.
Speaker 1: It's like terrifying, No, it's there. Yeah, it's clear in
Speaker 1: its present they actually nailed that. Yeah, I mean, and
Speaker 1: I thought like having the Max be the way that
Speaker 1: he was and that he was like not unsympathetic to
Speaker 1: the Nazi party, and then every time he said something
Speaker 1: like that, Captain von Trapp would like explode in anger
Speaker 1: to be like don't say that shit, Like you need
Speaker 1: to get on the right side of history, Yes, sir, Like,
Speaker 1: what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: mean Max represents the type of person who was just
Speaker 1: super like, Well, it doesn't affect me, so I don't
Speaker 1: really care. And I'm, you know, like just people who
Speaker 1: were complicit when awful things are happening. And I appreciated
Speaker 1: that he was presented that way and that you had
Speaker 1: Von Trapp openly challenging him on a pretty regular basis
Speaker 1: throughout the movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, covering this really makes me want to an episode
Speaker 2: on Cabaret would be unbelievably messy, because it is a
Speaker 2: very messy movie. But I feel like this movie shows
Speaker 2: most characters reacting in the best case scenario and they
Speaker 2: found the right story of like a family that extracts
Speaker 2: itself from complicity and something awful. And also like this
Speaker 2: family is privileged and you know, it has the resources
Speaker 2: and ability to escape with relative ease in comparison to
Speaker 2: other people faced with the same circumstances. And that's sort
Speaker 2: of more what Cabaret is doing of like, well, what
Speaker 2: does a poor person and like working class people caught
Speaker 2: in this minor that don't have the resources of the
Speaker 2: von Trapps to extract themselves. How do you resist? And
Speaker 2: like how do you navigate that? And there's like a
Speaker 2: whole gradient in Cabaret of people reacting with complicity and
Speaker 2: what happens when you resist with less resources, which is
Speaker 2: just unfortunately like the kind of stories and like challenges
Speaker 2: that we should be revisiting right now. Like it's because
Speaker 2: of just what tremendous complicity you know, you can be
Speaker 2: asked to have on a daily basis, and when it
Speaker 2: happens on a long enough timeline, your brain starts to
Speaker 2: numb to it and you can't let that happen. I
Speaker 2: don't know, I just yeah, it would be a very
Speaker 2: long double feature and actually quite depressing. But it is
Speaker 2: interesting to see these musicals kind of in conversation with
Speaker 2: each other, however intentionally about just like watching the slow
Speaker 2: encroaching fascistic movement and having to make the choice of
Speaker 2: like what are you going to do?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then you can have watched the producers for Dessert.
Speaker 4: Spring Time.
Speaker 1: I man, The last thing I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: is something we briefly touched on. But Maria when she
Speaker 1: says something like I'm too outspoken and it's one of
Speaker 1: my worst qualities. I appreciate that that is framed in
Speaker 1: such a way where like we realize that she's wrong,
Speaker 1: because every time she is outspoken, we're like rooting for
Speaker 1: her and we agree with her, and she's correct every
Speaker 1: time she's challenging Daddy von Trapp. But you understand why
Speaker 1: she thinks that's a bad quality because women were conditioned,
Speaker 1: and I'll have always been conditioned to think that if
Speaker 1: they are outspoken, if they are headstrong, if they do
Speaker 1: challenge authority or challenge anything that's the status quo, that
Speaker 1: they shouldn't be doing. That they should keep their mouths
Speaker 1: shut and you know, stay in their place, stay in
Speaker 1: their lane, blah blah blah. So I appreciate that she
Speaker 1: would have felt that was a bad quality, to be outspoken,
Speaker 1: but that the movie frames her being outspoken as a
Speaker 1: positive trait. That I think is the reason that von
Speaker 1: Trapp's arc manifests the way that it does, because if
Speaker 1: she hadn't been outspoken, based on all of the other
Speaker 1: governesses that we understood to have been there and clearly
Speaker 1: didn't do anything to challenge his like parenting and his
Speaker 1: inability to process his grief and be affectionate towards his
Speaker 1: children and stuff like that. You would imagine that that
Speaker 1: family would have just stayed that way, that he would
Speaker 1: have been this weird discipline daddy and that the children
Speaker 1: would be miserable because of it. Disciplined dad. I feel
Speaker 1: like that's a quote from Arrested Development.
Speaker 2: Feel very arrested Development, just.
Speaker 1: Like a throwaway joke. But I pulled it from somewhere,
Speaker 1: and I think it was that. But or I pulled
Speaker 1: it from my brain. Who've been saying, who me? Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm just disciplined daddies?
Speaker 2: Sungeon talk talk.
Speaker 4: Definitely dogeon talk.
Speaker 1: So Maria being a part of this family and being
Speaker 1: so outspoken and challenging his authority and his bad parenting
Speaker 1: is obviously like what changes the dynamic of the family.
Speaker 1: So I just appreciate that about the movie the end.
Speaker 2: Yeahni, is there anything else you wanted to touch on?
Speaker 5: I mean, I feel like, no, My most unpopular opinion
Speaker 5: is probably about this is that, like I kind of
Speaker 5: love the youngest children, Brigita and Marta.
Speaker 4: And like those are my favorite of all the children.
Speaker 5: They're just adorable and they're kind of just like living
Speaker 5: in this world where they're like I feel like the
Speaker 5: youngest three are just like we actually don't know what's
Speaker 5: going on, but we're cute as like, and we're just
Speaker 5: gonna say the most cutest things, and then we're also
Speaker 5: gonna like, so long.
Speaker 4: Farewell the youngest once hit it at the park, come on,
Speaker 4: come on.
Speaker 5: So I just I'm like, not a big fan of
Speaker 5: liseel or. I don't even actually remember the oldest. I
Speaker 5: just remember the youngest names. I'm like, hell, yeah, mart Yeah,
Speaker 5: so that's my that's my hot take.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on board, come on board. This movie does
Speaker 2: pass the Bechdel test way more than you would guess. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the whole song, how do you solve a problem? Like
Speaker 2: Maria passes the Bechdel test, it's just nuns being like,
Speaker 2: why is our coworkers so awesome? But hard to pend down?
Speaker 4: We let her like cloud.
Speaker 2: Gorgeous genderless compliments. Yes, Von Trapp is very often the
Speaker 2: subject of discussion. However, there's conversations between Maria and the Baroness,
Speaker 2: Maria and Lisel like Maria and other kids that passes
Speaker 2: between the sisters. I mean, there's a whole and also,
Speaker 2: oh uh, character we haven't shouted out yet. The housekeeper
Speaker 2: for the von Trapps.
Speaker 1: Rol Schmidt, who I was fantasizing that at one point
Speaker 1: she'd be like, please call me Schmitty. I think it's
Speaker 1: hilarious if a if a housekeeper was like, I'm Schmitty,
Speaker 1: my friends call me Schmitty.
Speaker 2: I like Froshmitt because she ultimately at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, she just wants to talk shit. Like she
Speaker 2: was a gossip is. She has to talk shit. And
Speaker 2: I was like, that is like that's what you do
Speaker 2: at work, where she's like, oh you girl, here, here's
Speaker 2: why everyone fucking sucks. I was like, yeah, that's what
Speaker 2: I do at a new job. Yea, So they talk shit.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's about men, sometimes it's not. Yeah, this movie has,
Speaker 2: I think, for especially for its time, like a really
Speaker 2: impressive interest in what the women think.
Speaker 1: Yes, could have been more.
Speaker 2: I again would love to have seen more about the
Speaker 2: political journey outside of this very wealthy family. But given
Speaker 2: what we have, I mean, I still think it's very impressive.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now to rate it on our nipple scale our
Speaker 1: skill where we rate the movie zero to five nipples
Speaker 1: based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens,
Speaker 1: I don't know maybe like three and a half of nipples.
Speaker 1: I think the movie has a lot going for it.
Speaker 1: As we discussed, I wish it allowed Maria to be
Speaker 1: more active in that last thirty minutes or so when
Speaker 1: they're escaping. I mean, the movie completely rewriting the narrative
Speaker 1: of how that marriage when as far as like, no,
Speaker 1: it was a mutually loving thing where they fell in
Speaker 1: love with each other and not a man forcing a
Speaker 1: nun to marry him, right because she was she was
Speaker 1: a good mommy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't even clear like if he had extremely
Speaker 2: romantic feelings for her, if he's like this makes sense.
Speaker 1: Right, if it was just like a practical like I
Speaker 1: need a woman to take care of my children because
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that hard to say.
Speaker 2: But also he was a good dad. It's weird, oh.
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, but he raised children to be doctors too,
Speaker 5: like you know, good conscience.
Speaker 1: Right, he raised anti Nazi doctors.
Speaker 4: And that's it's pretty good.
Speaker 2: That's pretty so.
Speaker 1: I will.
Speaker 2: But yeah, definitely an oversimplification. Yeah, whatever that relationship dynamic was.
Speaker 1: So actually, now that I think about it, I might
Speaker 1: bring it down to like three or maybe even two
Speaker 1: and a half nipples based on that, like because that's
Speaker 1: such a movie like way, because movies are obsessed with
Speaker 1: like let's throw in a love story that it usually
Speaker 1: doesn't need to be there or is a complete rewriting
Speaker 1: of history.
Speaker 4: And musicals are worse than it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So the more I think about it, the
Speaker 1: more it ly grosses me out. But the character of
Speaker 1: Maria herself is like very enjoyable, and I like the
Speaker 1: way that she's characterized. I do wish there was more
Speaker 1: of her, maybe just bonding with the children, and we
Speaker 1: like some of those children, because I kept mixing up,
Speaker 1: like who is Luisa? Even what does she do? Like
Speaker 1: I guess she's like kind of the she's like a
Speaker 1: little stinker, but a lot of the kids are a
Speaker 1: little stinkers, so like I couldn't differentiate her from some
Speaker 1: of those other kids. Brigida, I was struggling with. The
Speaker 1: young one was easy because she's like visibly the smallest
Speaker 1: and the youngest, and they give her some cute things
Speaker 1: to do. But I don't know, maybe I just wish
Speaker 1: that some of the some of the girls were a
Speaker 1: little bit more characterized. But overall, I like Julie Andrews.
Speaker 1: So the day. At the end of the day, team
Speaker 1: and team, I think I'll give the movie three nipples.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that's being generous or not or
Speaker 1: not generous enough. Who's to say. My brain doesn't really
Speaker 1: work anymore, But I'll give the movie three nipples. One
Speaker 1: will go to Julie Andrews and once again just shout
Speaker 1: out to Shrek two and her monumental role in.
Speaker 2: That her most iconic performance.
Speaker 1: And that of course leads to a little plug for
Speaker 1: our Shrek Tannic tour that's happening in May. So go
Speaker 1: to our link tree for the tickets to Shrek Tannic.
Speaker 1: I'll give one nipple to Lisil saying after a kiss,
Speaker 1: and I'll give a final nipple to the nuns who
Speaker 1: broke the Nazis cars.
Speaker 2: Oh, unbelievable. Yeah, I'm gonna go three and a half.
Speaker 2: I think I've ted to go a little higher. I mean,
Speaker 2: I feel like, for its time, this is an anti
Speaker 2: Nazi story that was a gigantic kit that was helmed
Speaker 2: mainly by Jewish writers and composers. I feel like the
Speaker 2: political elements of this story have aged very well. Like
Speaker 2: we were talking about before, there's a ton of encroaching
Speaker 2: fascistic political movements to resist, preferably while singing beautiful music,
Speaker 2: so that the core message of the movie is still unfortunate.
Speaker 2: I mean, still very very fresh. Maria. I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we do have like a little bit of a situation
Speaker 2: where there's a lot of women in this movie. We
Speaker 2: know a little bit about all of them. Maria is
Speaker 2: it's the Maria Show, but we kind of pulled back
Speaker 2: from her a little bit at the end. I just
Speaker 2: wish we knew more about the other women in this world.
Speaker 2: Everyone has moments, everyone has distinct personalities, except for some
Speaker 2: of the kids, which is like I'm more kind of
Speaker 2: fine with. But I could have used a shift on
Speaker 2: the Leasel story. I also think would be curious, like
Speaker 2: we see Captain von Trapp navigating grief and we don't
Speaker 2: really get the same perspective with the kids. And true, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just think that there is an
Speaker 2: unusual amount of space given to women acting independently. It's
Speaker 2: like there's whole songs about it and it's celebrated, and
Speaker 2: I think it's great. I'm going to give it three
Speaker 2: and a half nipples. I could give one to Julie Andrews.
Speaker 2: I'm going to give one to Julie Andrews as the
Speaker 2: Queen of Genovia I like to give and the queen
Speaker 2: of far far away there.
Speaker 1: Hasn't she been a queen or a caretaker of children?
Speaker 2: Yes, And of course I'm getting the rest of my
Speaker 2: nipples to the nuns that cut the brakes of the
Speaker 2: Nazis Nalini.
Speaker 5: I would probably read it it probably a four nipples,
Speaker 5: mostly because I mean, you said a lot of it
Speaker 5: where it's like just like the film of its time.
Speaker 5: And also I feel like the song like songs are
Speaker 5: also a musical, so like evolving around a man or
Speaker 5: a woman being in love or not, and like she
Speaker 5: doesn't actually sing that much about being in love.
Speaker 1: No, that's true, kind of not at all, Like I
Speaker 1: don't think at all.
Speaker 2: I'm going up to fourtune only hard.
Speaker 5: Like she's thinking about goats before goat heard hers before
Speaker 5: she's thinking about love, and like that's unprecedented for like
Speaker 5: a musical of its time, right, like with the love
Speaker 5: story that they have, they could.
Speaker 4: Have berated us with.
Speaker 2: It's true, I.
Speaker 4: Don't even want to think about it, Like I don't
Speaker 4: want to even think.
Speaker 2: About Okay, I'm going up to four you can.
Speaker 4: And obviously to Julie Andrews the Queena.
Speaker 5: Genovia, and I'm going to give one nipple to Bita too.
Speaker 4: Hell yeah, I have a soft spot in my heart
Speaker 4: for the little ones.
Speaker 2: Ali, Thank you so much for joining us today. This
Speaker 2: was such a fun conversation. Yea, thank you for your
Speaker 2: service in the sound of music itself. Yes, I wish
Speaker 2: we could have seen it.
Speaker 4: Thank you. It was a sight to see me in
Speaker 4: a habit. I'll say that. A lot of people though,
Speaker 4: when I was walking.
Speaker 5: Down the hallways of this high school were like, oh
Speaker 5: are you and sister act just because I was black,
Speaker 5: and I was like, oh.
Speaker 4: Here we go. Money it was. It was still amazing
Speaker 4: and thanks you all for having me.
Speaker 2: Of course, where can we find you online? Where can
Speaker 2: we find your work?
Speaker 5: Yes, you can find me on Instagram at nell Stamp
Speaker 5: as well as you can find Working Families Party at
Speaker 5: Working Families on all social media, or you can text
Speaker 5: to get involved and find out more. You can text
Speaker 5: WFP the Letters to three zero four zero three if
Speaker 5: you want to get involved with our work in China
Speaker 5: fight modern flashism.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can find us on all the regular places Instagram, Twitter,
Speaker 6: increasingly rarely, you can sign up for our Patreon aka Matreon,
Speaker 6: where for five dollars a month you can get two
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Speaker 1: WOWI Wow. You can also get our merch which is
Speaker 1: all designed by a one Jamie Loftus that's at teapublic
Speaker 1: dot com. Slash the Bechdel Cast, and you can go
Speaker 1: to our link tree where there are the tickets to
Speaker 1: our Shrek Tannic Tour. There is our letterboxed, there is
Speaker 1: our Patreon link, all that good stuff. And with that,
Speaker 1: should we go to the hills which are alive with
Speaker 1: the sound of music.
Speaker 2: Let's do it.
Speaker 1: Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,
Speaker 1: hosted by Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman,
Speaker 1: edited by Mola Boord. Our theme song was composed by
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