WEBVTT - Death & Deceit in Alliance | 8. The PIs 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.680 Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance. 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:05.280 Why is you know so many cops you never asked 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:05.600 about that? 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:06.520 I wondered about it. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:11.800 She was possibly seeing a police officer to live in. 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:13.760 He was a. 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:19.400 Hot mess, anger and rage very people scared me. 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.680 He scared me, and supposedly she told Linda McLaughlin's mother 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.400 that the youngest child maybe this policeman's son. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.080 You know, in terms of the police force. My god, 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.239 I had eight or nine names of officers who were 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.400 potential sexual partners. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.440 This drug guy was putting her up to it so 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:39.120 if he gets caught, he can black me out with 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:39.800 the cops. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.960 Given what we know about Yvonne is, I'm pretty sure 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:47.800 people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying out. 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.920 This is Death and Deceit in Alliance, A real time 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:04.280 investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:17.520 In nineteen ninety four, Jason Baldwin, along with two friends, 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.880 Damien Eccles and Jesse miss Kelly, were convicted of murdering 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.440 three little boys in West Memphis, Arkansas. 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:26.960 After they were convicted of murdering three boy scouts, hog 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:28.600 tied and left in a Ditch. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.360 But Jesse, Jason, and Damien all proclaimed their innocence. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.960 I got kidnapped at the ages sixteen by stay to Arkansas, 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.680 and you know, spent eighteen years in prison for something 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:40.440 I didn't. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.240 Do, and decades later that would lead to why I'm 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:44.600 sitting here, you know, to. 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.080 Start, I wanted to know how you founded proclaimed justice, 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:49.800 what it is, how you both met. 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:51.400 Gave me the origin story. 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:53.280 Well, mean to take it to you. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.800 The tag team, Yeah and all like real life. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:58.120 Yeah. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.640 At first, John heard about Jason, Damien, and Jesse back 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:02.960 when the crime happened. 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:06.000 So in you're from Arkansas, which I am, and I'm 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:06.800 about their age. 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:07.800 I'm a little bit older than. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.639 Jason, a couple years older, and of course you hear 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.760 about this case and it's all. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:14.239 Over the state. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:17.120 Jason was a kid then doing life for a crime 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.240 he says he did not commit, and I kind. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:21.920 Of started. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.040 Wondering about it, and that just kind of took me 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:25.400 down this. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:30.320 Rabbit hole of these guys are innocent, and so I 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.240 advocated for them from a far just. 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.440 Through This is Jason. He and his co defendants, Damien 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.280 and Jesse, had been featured in a nineteen ninety six 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:44.840 documentary on HBO called Paradise Lost, which raised doubts about 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.920 their convictions. This is the one that Metallica did the 0:02:47.919 --> 0:02:50.600 soundtrack for and put the West Memphis Three case on 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:55.440 the map. People all over the country were demanding justice 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:56.080 for the trio. 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.960 Arkansas officials would just say, you know, hey, those people 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.680 who are saying that about the case are from New York, 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:19.480 are from California, are from New Zealand. You know, foreigners. 0:03:19.480 --> 0:03:22.120 They're outsiders. They don't know this case like we do. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:24.760 And so they kept putting that lie out there to 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.400 the Arkansas and so John Cardon, who is an Arkanson, 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.400 and he was like, no, I've looked at this case. 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.360 I believe that these kids are innocent. 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:44.240 And from then John was on the case. In twenty eleven, 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:48.680 after eighteen years in prison, Jason, Jesse, and Damien were 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:50.360 released on an Alfred plea. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.640 Today, the West Memphis Three walked free. 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.080 And Alfred plea allowed them to profess their innocence while 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.400 technically pleading guilty. So despite being free, the three are 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.840 still officially convicted murderers, which, among other things like being 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.240 a felon forever, means they couldn't sue the state for 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:14.200 a wrongful conviction. Jason didn't receive a multimillion dollar settlement 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:18.200 as other wrongfully convicted have, but Jason had something else. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.680 When he was in prison, musicians like Metallica and Eddie 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.360 Vedder from Pearl Jam supported his cause, and when Jason 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:25.960 got out. 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.480 Eddie veddered and whisked me away to live up in 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.960 his castle in Seattle and John. 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.680 Shortly after arriving in Seattle, John went up to visit John. 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:43.359 He was like, Hey, the best things I've experienced in 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.520 my life was you know, Marry and my wife, seeing 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:50.320 my son born, and seeing you guys well free go home. 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:50.520 You know. 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.960 And I want to continue doing that for other annocent 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.159 people in prison, you know. And I would like to 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:57.920 take that journey with you. And I was like, hey, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.080 you know, I promise the guys I left behind I 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.000 wouldn't forget them, and this is a way for me 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:04.240 to keep that promise. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:08.360 So they started Proclaimed Justice, a nonprofit dedicated to writing 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:12.240 wrongful convictions. They got to work in twenty thirteen. They 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.080 started with the people they knew from prison and focused 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.280 on death row prisoners. Jason's co defendant, Damien had been 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:19.960 on death row. 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.480 They said, Damien, you were on death row in arkansastware 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:26.479 crime you didn't commit. Were you the only innocent person 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.760 on death row? And he said no, Tim Tim Howard, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.039 and so John was like, we need a free TAM. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.120 I'm like, ks, we need a free cam and they did. 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:39.640 On December fourteenth, twenty seventeen, after twenty years in prison 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:44.840 and fifteen on death row, Proclaimed Justice freed Tim Howard. 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.640 Released last Wednesday after twenty years behind bars, most of 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:50.360 that time on death row. 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:54.479 Proclaimed Justice helped free Tim Howard, and short of a 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.600 year later they also secured the freedom of Daniel Viagis 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:00.000 from El Paso, Texas. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.400 You find the defendant, Daniel Rigez not guilty of that. 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.840 I wanted to know what it requires for them to 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:11.559 take a case. 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.120 No, we're very selective in our case. Is we want 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.880 to take everybody's case. It's not humanly possible, and so 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.400 we had you know, we have a very limited resources 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.640 and we had to make sure those resources are successful. 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.520 The team itself is pretty small in terms of investigators. 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:33.760 It's John and Danny Waxler, a lifelong private investigator and 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.599 a friend of John's from high school. John told me 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.760 that they have to be beyond certain that the person 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.000 they're working for is innocent before they officially take a case. 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:45.800 In fact, there have been a few cases they told 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.480 me about that they started working on feeling good and 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:53.520 then during their investigation they discovered the person's guilt. Another 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.280 key factor in deciding whether to take a case is 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.039 that they have to believe the defendant. You're going to 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.280 spend a lot of time work looking for them, often 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.760 for free, so credibility is key, and they take their 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:07.680 time to make sure they have it right. 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:11.640 We're working on several cases all the time, and the 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.160 way our case work is we may work on a 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.320 case for a few years before we even officially take 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:18.840 a case. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.520 And I thought they were the perfect people to evaluate 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.560 a case like David's. And I was super excited when 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:28.440 they agreed to look at the files, even if it 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.440 didn't mean they were as of yet committed to a 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:38.400 full investigation, it was a start. This is John Harden. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.960 So I started like I usually do, just you know, 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.360 started really with the trial transcripts after no one whole story, 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:50.520 and I'm not too far along in those, but already 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:52.240 a bunch of questions and. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.160 If you remember from episode one, John sent me a 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.200 recording of him and Danny looking at the files and 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:04.400 talking about their initial reaction just from reading the trial transcripts. Anyway, 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:09.320 they started with the key evidence, you. 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.160 Know, right off the bat. A couple of things that 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:16.240 raised my eyebrows are the knife in the pants. How 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:22.080 did Joe lead them to the circumstances? Was it confirmed 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.360 to be the murder weapon with any kind of forensic 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:31.880 or biological testing or anything like that. And if it 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.720 was the murder weapon and Joe did lead them there. 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.160 Then that's a big fucking deal. So just kind of 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:39.720 on its space. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:45.800 You're sitting there thinking, okay, plausible, but fucking three hundred 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.080 dollars to murder of woman in cold blood? 0:08:48.280 --> 0:08:50.520 They question how much sense this makes. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:56.720 I'm under the strong impression that Joseph was the fourth 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.640 friend of David Thorn that the cops. 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:01.840 Had gone to. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.439 If you remember, I spoke with one of those friends, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.360 Josh McComb, who said the police tried to get him 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.800 and a few of David's other friends to confess before 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.560 they found Joe. Remember, David had a rock solid alibi. 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.720 He couldn't have done the murder, so the search was 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:19.120 on for an accomplice. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:25.320 There's a full blown declaration that they went after three friends. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.120 I mean it's in record that there were three other 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.480 associates or friends of David's that they approached first. Yeah, 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:40.880 and tried to coerce or push them into testifying against David. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:45.040 So do you think that they like very quickly zeroed 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:48.280 in on David and then started, Okay, the other thing 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.120 off the bat was and I'll look forward to this 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:55.040 Rose Moore girl. It sounds like that's how they broke 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.640 the case, according to them, with even knowing Joe was involved. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.360 Remember, Rose and her boyfriend Chris were the first people 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.000 to bring the cops attention to Joe. Rose told the 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.559 police they were at the mall and they bumped into 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.800 Joe where he showed them the knife and. 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:15.760 He says that he was over an alliance to kill 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:20.040 a woman. And so that's what led them to Joe, 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.600 according to. 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.040 The state, So she's kind of a big deal. How 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.720 did I've thought about that? You know, what if let's 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:31.640 just say Joe. 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:38.400 Hit this, Yeah, because there are things that make you say, well, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.720 ants a knife and familiarity. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.560 Why is he staying at a freaking hotel? In town 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:45.840 that night and. 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.120 With Joe, who was basically penniless in the hotel, just 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.160 going to a party, like he later said after he recounted, 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.120 or was he actually there to Killy Vaughan like the 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:57.319 state claims. 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:58.600 The guys waffled on new statements. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.199 So if you if we acknowledge that he's been dishonest, 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.960 and he is the entire reason that David Thorn is 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:09.199 sitting in jail right now. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:17.480 Well, and don't forget this crucial and confusing detail, but there. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.600 Was no there were no there was no blood on 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:20.360 that knife. 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.040 I think there was a partial print on the knife 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.640 that didn't match anybody, didn't match David, didn't match Joe. 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.839 The reason David Thorn is sitting in jail right now 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.000 is someone that you acknowledge as a fucking liar. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's nothing else I forgot we were recording. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:41.320 Excuse my language. Now, it doesn't matter, man, this is 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:42.800 just us talking. How we call. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:47.360 Joe's got some explaining to do. I mean, it's not 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.600 cut and dry that he's lying, you know what I mean, 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.079 there's some real questions that I'm going to have to 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:57.800 get some satisfactory answers to. 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.960 After looking at the files, the guys decided there was 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:03.800 enough for them to want to do boots on the 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.800 groundwork in Ohio to try and figure out if David 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.640 is telling the truth about his innocence, and if so, 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.320 who did kill Yvonne Lane. Now it's worth noting that 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.320 this is the hardest thing investigators can do find the killer, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:24.520 and in most innocence cases, even successful ones, rarely is 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.920 there enough evidence to prove someone else did the crime. 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.760 It's violations of due process, like withholding evidence or cops 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.760 lying that lead to overturning a conviction most times. But 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.880 with David's case, remember it was dead in the water. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:42.280 He appealed and lost. They had to have new evidence 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:50.200 or the real killer. In late January, we met up 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.960 in snowy, Ohio and wasted no time. 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.199 The snow's pretty on the ground up here. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.480 We set out to find Rose and Chris. It's just me, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.679 Johnny and Danny. Jason usually stays back and works from 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:03.960 the office in Austin. 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:08.840 Twenty two miles. 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:11.880 I hope it's the way of Starbucks. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:36.320 John starts every morning with chair. Anyway. At trial, Joe's 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.319 testimony was the main evidence against David. It was his 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:44.800 statement that David hired him to kill Vaughn that convicted David. 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:47.840 The evidence that led the police to Joe was Rose 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:53.120 Moore and Chris Campbell and just as a reminder, a 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.840 week before Joe's arrest, the police received a tip. The 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:58.960 tip came from a woman who worked at an apartment 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.199 complex an alliance, stating that one of her tenants had 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.719 information in the Yvonne Lane murder. A resident at the 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:09.640 apartment had said that her daughter, Rose Moore, had the information. 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.200 The police spoke with Rose on July twelfth, two days 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.080 before Joe was picked up, over three months after the murder. 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.760 Twenty three year old Rose told officers that she and 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:24.680 her boyfriend Chris Campbell were in the food court at 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.400 the Carnation Mall when they bumped into Joe Wilkes. Chris 0:14:28.440 --> 0:14:31.800 knew Joe from high school and they started talking. That's 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.040 when eighteen year old Joe allegedly told them he was 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.360 an alliance to do a job. He was hired to 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.480 kill a woman. Here's John the PI for me. 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.440 She's the first person on record that mentions Joe. 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.680 That's the significance of her to me. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:56.560 She's not, but there are discrepancies in Rose's account key ones, 0:14:57.000 --> 0:15:01.720 and Rose's testimony will evolve. Initially told police Joe was 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.520 in a white outfit white pants with some dark but 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.840 by trial she put him in black hands, the ones 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:12.200 that were allegedly found in the woods. She also initially 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.840 told police Joe's knife was an eight inch knife in 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.400 a sheath. By trial this changed to the folding knife 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.520 Joe allegedly bought and which was found in the sewer 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:26.720 drain near Yvonne's house. And Rose also said that Joe 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.760 allegedly wrote his phone number on a business card for 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.880 Chris to contact him in the future. Now remember this 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.720 was presented at trial to prove that Joe was there 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:40.000 with Rose and Chris. But Sue, David's wife, actually met 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.760 with Rose and confronted her about the encounter and this card. 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.520 But if Sue is credible, when I have no reason 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:48.840 to doubt that. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.160 The whole I wrote his name and number down. 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:59.640 And according to Sue, when Sue confronted her with a 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.760 cop be of that business carded phone number was page 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:06.320 your number. She said he didn't write this. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.960 Joe didn't write this. You did. 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.880 And in Sue's mind. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.760 At least Rose acknowledged that she did write that. 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:19.920 So did Sue misunderstand or did Rose make up that 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.960 Joe wrote it? Was she lying for the prosecution about 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:27.000 the encounter with Joe? If her story changed? Why? And 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.280 I'll be honest, the handwriting does not look like Joe's 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:35.640 a shaky, twitchy, semi illiterate kid. We wanted to get 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:36.720 to the bottom of it. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:42.520 Morning. 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.680 How are you as I Haarley? We were looking for 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:46.720 Rose Moore? 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:47.720 Does she live here? 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:49.240 Okay? 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:53.120 We are we're investigators. We worked for an innocents project. 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.160 She was involved in a case twenty years ago out 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:56.880 the Waynes. 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.800 Heard nothing about it. But yeah, my two boys and 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:00.520 there the dentists. 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.080 They're at the dentist. Will she be back this morning? 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.320 Okay, I can tect her. Let you know what time? Yeah, 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:08.199 would you mind I give your vone number if you 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:08.720 want to talk. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:09.680 To Yeah, let's do that. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.440 Do you think she'd mind talking to us? 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:13.560 A few parties might have a phone off or she's 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.560 off with Are you her husband? Yeah? 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.080 Yeah, we just uh, I mean we know that she 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.920 was sort of just pushed into the case. 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:25.720 You know, there's no fault to wrong, but we're just 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:26.040 trying to. 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:26.840 Piece it all together. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.440 And yeah, all right, Well we'll text her and then 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.080 see when she's available today and visit with her for 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:32.720 a little bit. 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.560 There's no school today, so we're here to. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:38.240 Okay, okay, very good. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:43.640 I like John's approach, low key, conversational, neighborly, no pressure. Still, 0:17:43.920 --> 0:17:46.959 who knows if it works. After John texted the number, 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:47.800 we waited. 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.639 We'll stick around Alliance for a little bit longer to 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.960 see if Froze text back. So I don't want to 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.720 once we head out of Alliance, we need to be 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:58.520 going the rest. 0:17:58.359 --> 0:17:58.760 Of the day. 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.400 We had a ton of other people to track down, 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:05.399 but didn't want to miss Rose. 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:07.720 We're just gonna kill a little bit of time to 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.560 give Rose some time to reply. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.720 I feel like we should pay a wait outside. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:16.320 Her house. 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:17.800 Yeah, just see what you pulled in? 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.480 Yeah, yeah, I mean we got to wait somewhere. 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:27.680 So I was just thinking that it's eight thirty. Most 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:30.640 Dennis Officers don't open until eight. If she had two 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.359 kids there, yeah, I figure she'll be there a little bit, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:36.840 maybe at least an hour or for she's available. 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.600 Could take a run at Chris Campbell and come back 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.240 over here. He's in Canton. 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:51.600 Yeah, so we drove to Canton, about a half hour away. Now, 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:55.879 Chris was Rose's boyfriend at the time. Chris's testimony was 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.760 relatively consistent with his statement to the police, particularly that 0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:02.359 it took him a minute to recognize Joe because he 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.000 was in all new clothes, which for Joe, a kid 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:10.960 who was usually houseless, was unusual. But his statement contradicted 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.280 Rose in at least one important detail. Chris also said 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.159 that Joe told him he was in town to do 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.399 a job to kill a girl. Remember, Rose said that 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.000 Joe said some guy paid him to do it, but 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.640 Chris said that Joe told them he was killing her 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:32.920 for his as in Joe's girlfriend, because his girlfriend didn't 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.960 like the girl. It's unclear who his girlfriend was at 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.600 the time. We knocked on a few doors looking for 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.520 Chris and we had no luck. Seems like he moves 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:51.960 around a lot. And then we finally found someone. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:56.320 Hello, Hi, good morning. We're looking for Chris Campbell. 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:57.120 Does he live here. 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.160 No, he don't live here anymore. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.119 Okay, and you don't have any Okay, you don't do 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.879 you know him? Know where he would live currently? No? 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:08.240 He left me and wait with some other girl and oh, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:09.280 so you didn't do me? 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:10.840 Okay, yeah, I did live here? 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:11.800 Any other thing anymore? 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.919 Okay, Now I want to explain something before we go 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.560 any further. You'll notice in all of the interviews it's 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:22.520 not me conducting them as I normally would. It's Danny 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:26.080 and John, the two private investigators. And there's a reason 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.560 for this because the sole purpose of this investigation and 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.639 this podcast is to find out if David is telling 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.440 the truth, and if so, get David back in court, 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.040 which would give him a shot at overturning his conviction, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:44.000 and we could potentially find who really killed Levonne. But 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:47.520 we have to take precautions. If I'm part of the interviews, 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:51.200 that could be seen as witness tampering. I'm not a 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.679 licensed private investigator like John and Danny. So although it's 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:58.040 incredibly unusual and uncomfortable for me, I don't want to 0:20:58.080 --> 0:21:00.960 mess anything up, so I stay back and let them 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:02.000 handle the interviews. 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.040 How long how long has he been gone? It's been 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.720 a mother two weeks or so. 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.399 Do you know who she is or where we might 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:11.080 could find him? 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:13.760 H was he driving? 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:15.760 These days? 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:18.600 Chris would be harder to find than we thought. We 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.760 missed him at his house by two weeks. He's transient, 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:24.800 hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend, kind of like Joe was. 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.040 And what Joe says about Chris brings up the possibility 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:31.560 that Chris could have been lying. 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:40.000 Been cool I because of a few reasons, and told 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.119 almost factill fight when I was in naked JGF. 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:46.600 And on top of that, I he knew that I 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:51.080 was pretty much racist and made very big for that. 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.520 This is Joe talking to Sue in their first phone call. 0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.919 Joe is white and Chris is black, and Joe was 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.840 by his own account racist, so the two didn't get along. 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:05.479 According to Joe, Joe also got expelled because of a 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:09.080 fight with Chris, So maybe that meant there was motivation 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:13.439 for Chris to lie, kind of like revenge. And if 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:16.119 there was motive for Chris, there could have been motive 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.440 for Rose, who was his girlfriend at the time. Rose 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.119 told police Chris told her not to say anything, and 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:26.440 she told police and her tape statement that she's afraid 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:26.959 of Chris. 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.320 Why you haven't come forward toil enough? 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.240 Because I've been scared for my life because Chris Campbell 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:36.479