1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,680 Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 2: Why is you know so many cops you never asked 3 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 2: about that? 4 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: I wondered about it. 5 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 3: She was possibly seeing a police officer to live in. 6 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: He was a. 7 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 4: Hot mess, anger and rage very people scared me. 8 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 5: He scared me, and supposedly she told Linda McLaughlin's mother 9 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 5: that the youngest child maybe this policeman's son. 10 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 4: You know, in terms of the police force. My god, 11 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 4: I had eight or nine names of officers who were 12 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 4: potential sexual partners. 13 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 3: This drug guy was putting her up to it so 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 3: if he gets caught, he can black me out with 15 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 3: the cops. 16 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 4: Given what we know about Yvonne is, I'm pretty sure 17 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 4: people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying out. 18 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: This is Death and Deceit in Alliance, A real time 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. 20 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety four, Jason Baldwin, along with two friends, 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: Damien Eccles and Jesse miss Kelly, were convicted of murdering 22 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: three little boys in West Memphis, Arkansas. 23 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 6: After they were convicted of murdering three boy scouts, hog 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 6: tied and left in a Ditch. 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: But Jesse, Jason, and Damien all proclaimed their innocence. 26 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 3: I got kidnapped at the ages sixteen by stay to Arkansas, 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 3: and you know, spent eighteen years in prison for something 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 3: I didn't. 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Do, and decades later that would lead to why I'm 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: sitting here, you know, to. 31 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: Start, I wanted to know how you founded proclaimed justice, 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: what it is, how you both met. 33 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: Gave me the origin story. 34 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 6: Well, mean to take it to you. 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: The tag team, Yeah and all like real life. 36 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 37 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: At first, John heard about Jason, Damien, and Jesse back 38 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: when the crime happened. 39 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 5: So in you're from Arkansas, which I am, and I'm 40 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 5: about their age. 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 7: I'm a little bit older than. 42 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 5: Jason, a couple years older, and of course you hear 43 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 5: about this case and it's all. 44 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 6: Over the state. 45 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: Jason was a kid then doing life for a crime 46 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: he says he did not commit, and I kind. 47 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 8: Of started. 48 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 6: Wondering about it, and that just kind of took me 49 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 6: down this. 50 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 5: Rabbit hole of these guys are innocent, and so I 51 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 5: advocated for them from a far just. 52 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: Through This is Jason. He and his co defendants, Damien 53 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 1: and Jesse, had been featured in a nineteen ninety six 54 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: documentary on HBO called Paradise Lost, which raised doubts about 55 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: their convictions. This is the one that Metallica did the 56 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: soundtrack for and put the West Memphis Three case on 57 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: the map. People all over the country were demanding justice 58 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 1: for the trio. 59 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 3: Arkansas officials would just say, you know, hey, those people 60 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 3: who are saying that about the case are from New York, 61 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: are from California, are from New Zealand. You know, foreigners. 62 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: They're outsiders. They don't know this case like we do. 63 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: And so they kept putting that lie out there to 64 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 3: the Arkansas and so John Cardon, who is an Arkanson, 65 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: and he was like, no, I've looked at this case. 66 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 3: I believe that these kids are innocent. 67 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: And from then John was on the case. In twenty eleven, 68 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: after eighteen years in prison, Jason, Jesse, and Damien were 69 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: released on an Alfred plea. 70 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 6: Today, the West Memphis Three walked free. 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: And Alfred plea allowed them to profess their innocence while 72 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: technically pleading guilty. So despite being free, the three are 73 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: still officially convicted murderers, which, among other things like being 74 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: a felon forever, means they couldn't sue the state for 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: a wrongful conviction. Jason didn't receive a multimillion dollar settlement 76 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: as other wrongfully convicted have, but Jason had something else. 77 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: When he was in prison, musicians like Metallica and Eddie 78 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: Vedder from Pearl Jam supported his cause, and when Jason 79 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: got out. 80 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 3: Eddie veddered and whisked me away to live up in 81 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: his castle in Seattle and John. 82 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: Shortly after arriving in Seattle, John went up to visit John. 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,359 Speaker 3: He was like, Hey, the best things I've experienced in 84 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 3: my life was you know, Marry and my wife, seeing 85 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 3: my son born, and seeing you guys well free go home. 86 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 2: You know. 87 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: And I want to continue doing that for other annocent 88 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 3: people in prison, you know. And I would like to 89 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: take that journey with you. And I was like, hey, 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: you know, I promise the guys I left behind I 91 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 3: wouldn't forget them, and this is a way for me 92 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: to keep that promise. 93 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: So they started Proclaimed Justice, a nonprofit dedicated to writing 94 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. They got to work in twenty thirteen. They 95 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: started with the people they knew from prison and focused 96 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: on death row prisoners. Jason's co defendant, Damien had been 97 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: on death row. 98 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 3: They said, Damien, you were on death row in arkansastware 99 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 3: crime you didn't commit. Were you the only innocent person 100 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: on death row? And he said no, Tim Tim Howard, 101 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 3: and so John was like, we need a free TAM. 102 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: I'm like, ks, we need a free cam and they did. 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: On December fourteenth, twenty seventeen, after twenty years in prison 104 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: and fifteen on death row, Proclaimed Justice freed Tim Howard. 105 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 9: Released last Wednesday after twenty years behind bars, most of 106 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 9: that time on death row. 107 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: Proclaimed Justice helped free Tim Howard, and short of a 108 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: year later they also secured the freedom of Daniel Viagis 109 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: from El Paso, Texas. 110 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: You find the defendant, Daniel Rigez not guilty of that. 111 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to know what it requires for them to 112 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:11,559 Speaker 1: take a case. 113 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: No, we're very selective in our case. Is we want 114 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 3: to take everybody's case. It's not humanly possible, and so 115 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: we had you know, we have a very limited resources 116 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 3: and we had to make sure those resources are successful. 117 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: The team itself is pretty small in terms of investigators. 118 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: It's John and Danny Waxler, a lifelong private investigator and 119 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: a friend of John's from high school. John told me 120 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: that they have to be beyond certain that the person 121 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: they're working for is innocent before they officially take a case. 122 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: In fact, there have been a few cases they told 123 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: me about that they started working on feeling good and 124 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: then during their investigation they discovered the person's guilt. Another 125 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: key factor in deciding whether to take a case is 126 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: that they have to believe the defendant. You're going to 127 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time work looking for them, often 128 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: for free, so credibility is key, and they take their 129 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: time to make sure they have it right. 130 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: We're working on several cases all the time, and the 131 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: way our case work is we may work on a 132 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: case for a few years before we even officially take 133 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: a case. 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: And I thought they were the perfect people to evaluate 135 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: a case like David's. And I was super excited when 136 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: they agreed to look at the files, even if it 137 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: didn't mean they were as of yet committed to a 138 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: full investigation, it was a start. This is John Harden. 139 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 5: So I started like I usually do, just you know, 140 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 5: started really with the trial transcripts after no one whole story, 141 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 5: and I'm not too far along in those, but already 142 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 5: a bunch of questions and. 143 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: If you remember from episode one, John sent me a 144 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: recording of him and Danny looking at the files and 145 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: talking about their initial reaction just from reading the trial transcripts. Anyway, 146 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: they started with the key evidence, you. 147 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 5: Know, right off the bat. A couple of things that 148 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 5: raised my eyebrows are the knife in the pants. How 149 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 5: did Joe lead them to the circumstances? Was it confirmed 150 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 5: to be the murder weapon with any kind of forensic 151 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 5: or biological testing or anything like that. And if it 152 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 5: was the murder weapon and Joe did lead them there. 153 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 6: Then that's a big fucking deal. So just kind of 154 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 6: on its space. 155 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 5: You're sitting there thinking, okay, plausible, but fucking three hundred 156 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 5: dollars to murder of woman in cold blood? 157 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: They question how much sense this makes. 158 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 7: I'm under the strong impression that Joseph was the fourth 159 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 7: friend of David Thorn that the cops. 160 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 6: Had gone to. 161 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: If you remember, I spoke with one of those friends, 162 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: Josh McComb, who said the police tried to get him 163 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: and a few of David's other friends to confess before 164 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: they found Joe. Remember, David had a rock solid alibi. 165 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: He couldn't have done the murder, so the search was 166 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: on for an accomplice. 167 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 7: There's a full blown declaration that they went after three friends. 168 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 7: I mean it's in record that there were three other 169 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 7: associates or friends of David's that they approached first. Yeah, 170 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 7: and tried to coerce or push them into testifying against David. 171 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 5: So do you think that they like very quickly zeroed 172 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 5: in on David and then started, Okay, the other thing 173 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 5: off the bat was and I'll look forward to this 174 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 5: Rose Moore girl. It sounds like that's how they broke 175 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 5: the case, according to them, with even knowing Joe was involved. 176 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: Remember, Rose and her boyfriend Chris were the first people 177 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: to bring the cops attention to Joe. Rose told the 178 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: police they were at the mall and they bumped into 179 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: Joe where he showed them the knife and. 180 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 5: He says that he was over an alliance to kill 181 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 5: a woman. And so that's what led them to Joe, 182 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 5: according to. 183 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 6: The state, So she's kind of a big deal. How 184 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 6: did I've thought about that? You know, what if let's 185 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 6: just say Joe. 186 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 7: Hit this, Yeah, because there are things that make you say, well, 187 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 7: ants a knife and familiarity. 188 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 6: Why is he staying at a freaking hotel? In town 189 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 6: that night and. 190 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: With Joe, who was basically penniless in the hotel, just 191 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: going to a party, like he later said after he recounted, 192 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: or was he actually there to Killy Vaughan like the 193 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: state claims. 194 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 7: The guys waffled on new statements. 195 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 196 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 7: So if you if we acknowledge that he's been dishonest, 197 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 7: and he is the entire reason that David Thorn is 198 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 7: sitting in jail right now. 199 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: Well, and don't forget this crucial and confusing detail, but there. 200 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 6: Was no there were no there was no blood on 201 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 6: that knife. 202 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 5: I think there was a partial print on the knife 203 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 5: that didn't match anybody, didn't match David, didn't match Joe. 204 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 7: The reason David Thorn is sitting in jail right now 205 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 7: is someone that you acknowledge as a fucking liar. 206 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's nothing else I forgot we were recording. 207 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 6: Excuse my language. Now, it doesn't matter, man, this is 208 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 6: just us talking. How we call. 209 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 5: Joe's got some explaining to do. I mean, it's not 210 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 5: cut and dry that he's lying, you know what I mean, 211 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 5: there's some real questions that I'm going to have to 212 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 5: get some satisfactory answers to. 213 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: After looking at the files, the guys decided there was 214 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: enough for them to want to do boots on the 215 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: groundwork in Ohio to try and figure out if David 216 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: is telling the truth about his innocence, and if so, 217 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 1: who did kill Yvonne Lane. Now it's worth noting that 218 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 1: this is the hardest thing investigators can do find the killer, 219 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: and in most innocence cases, even successful ones, rarely is 220 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: there enough evidence to prove someone else did the crime. 221 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: It's violations of due process, like withholding evidence or cops 222 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: lying that lead to overturning a conviction most times. But 223 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: with David's case, remember it was dead in the water. 224 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: He appealed and lost. They had to have new evidence 225 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: or the real killer. In late January, we met up 226 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: in snowy, Ohio and wasted no time. 227 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 8: The snow's pretty on the ground up here. 228 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: We set out to find Rose and Chris. It's just me, 229 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: Johnny and Danny. Jason usually stays back and works from 230 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: the office in Austin. 231 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 8: Twenty two miles. 232 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: I hope it's the way of Starbucks. 233 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: John starts every morning with chair. Anyway. At trial, Joe's 234 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 1: testimony was the main evidence against David. It was his 235 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: statement that David hired him to kill Vaughn that convicted David. 236 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: The evidence that led the police to Joe was Rose 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: Moore and Chris Campbell and just as a reminder, a 238 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: week before Joe's arrest, the police received a tip. The 239 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: tip came from a woman who worked at an apartment 240 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: complex an alliance, stating that one of her tenants had 241 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: information in the Yvonne Lane murder. A resident at the 242 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: apartment had said that her daughter, Rose Moore, had the information. 243 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: The police spoke with Rose on July twelfth, two days 244 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 1: before Joe was picked up, over three months after the murder. 245 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: Twenty three year old Rose told officers that she and 246 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: her boyfriend Chris Campbell were in the food court at 247 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: the Carnation Mall when they bumped into Joe Wilkes. Chris 248 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: knew Joe from high school and they started talking. That's 249 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: when eighteen year old Joe allegedly told them he was 250 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: an alliance to do a job. He was hired to 251 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: kill a woman. Here's John the PI for me. 252 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 5: She's the first person on record that mentions Joe. 253 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 6: That's the significance of her to me. 254 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: She's not, but there are discrepancies in Rose's account key ones, 255 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: and Rose's testimony will evolve. Initially told police Joe was 256 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: in a white outfit white pants with some dark but 257 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: by trial she put him in black hands, the ones 258 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: that were allegedly found in the woods. She also initially 259 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: told police Joe's knife was an eight inch knife in 260 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: a sheath. By trial this changed to the folding knife 261 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: Joe allegedly bought and which was found in the sewer 262 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: drain near Yvonne's house. And Rose also said that Joe 263 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: allegedly wrote his phone number on a business card for 264 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: Chris to contact him in the future. Now remember this 265 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: was presented at trial to prove that Joe was there 266 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: with Rose and Chris. But Sue, David's wife, actually met 267 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: with Rose and confronted her about the encounter and this card. 268 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 7: But if Sue is credible, when I have no reason 269 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 7: to doubt that. 270 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 6: The whole I wrote his name and number down. 271 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 7: And according to Sue, when Sue confronted her with a 272 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 7: cop be of that business carded phone number was page 273 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 7: your number. She said he didn't write this. 274 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: Joe didn't write this. You did. 275 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 7: And in Sue's mind. 276 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 6: At least Rose acknowledged that she did write that. 277 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: So did Sue misunderstand or did Rose make up that 278 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: Joe wrote it? Was she lying for the prosecution about 279 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: the encounter with Joe? If her story changed? Why? And 280 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: I'll be honest, the handwriting does not look like Joe's 281 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: a shaky, twitchy, semi illiterate kid. We wanted to get 282 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: to the bottom of it. 283 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: Morning. 284 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 6: How are you as I Haarley? We were looking for 285 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 6: Rose Moore? 286 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: Does she live here? 287 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 3: Okay? 288 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 8: We are we're investigators. We worked for an innocents project. 289 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 8: She was involved in a case twenty years ago out 290 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 8: the Waynes. 291 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 2: Heard nothing about it. But yeah, my two boys and 292 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: there the dentists. 293 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 6: They're at the dentist. Will she be back this morning? 294 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: Okay, I can tect her. Let you know what time? Yeah, 295 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: would you mind I give your vone number if you 296 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: want to talk. 297 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 3: To Yeah, let's do that. 298 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 7: Do you think she'd mind talking to us? 299 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: A few parties might have a phone off or she's 300 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: off with Are you her husband? Yeah? 301 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 8: Yeah, we just uh, I mean we know that she 302 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 8: was sort of just pushed into the case. 303 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 6: You know, there's no fault to wrong, but we're just 304 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 6: trying to. 305 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: Piece it all together. 306 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 8: And yeah, all right, Well we'll text her and then 307 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 8: see when she's available today and visit with her for 308 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 8: a little bit. 309 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: There's no school today, so we're here to. 310 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 6: Okay, okay, very good. 311 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: I like John's approach, low key, conversational, neighborly, no pressure. Still, 312 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: who knows if it works. After John texted the number, 313 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: we waited. 314 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 5: We'll stick around Alliance for a little bit longer to 315 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 5: see if Froze text back. So I don't want to 316 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 5: once we head out of Alliance, we need to be 317 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 5: going the rest. 318 00:17:58,359 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: Of the day. 319 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: We had a ton of other people to track down, 320 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: but didn't want to miss Rose. 321 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 5: We're just gonna kill a little bit of time to 322 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 5: give Rose some time to reply. 323 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: I feel like we should pay a wait outside. 324 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 6: Her house. 325 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, just see what you pulled in? 326 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I mean we got to wait somewhere. 327 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:27,680 Speaker 7: So I was just thinking that it's eight thirty. Most 328 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 7: Dennis Officers don't open until eight. If she had two 329 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 7: kids there, yeah, I figure she'll be there a little bit, 330 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 7: maybe at least an hour or for she's available. 331 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 6: Could take a run at Chris Campbell and come back 332 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 6: over here. He's in Canton. 333 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we drove to Canton, about a half hour away. Now, 334 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: Chris was Rose's boyfriend at the time. Chris's testimony was 335 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: relatively consistent with his statement to the police, particularly that 336 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,359 Speaker 1: it took him a minute to recognize Joe because he 337 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: was in all new clothes, which for Joe, a kid 338 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: who was usually houseless, was unusual. But his statement contradicted 339 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: Rose in at least one important detail. Chris also said 340 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: that Joe told him he was in town to do 341 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,399 Speaker 1: a job to kill a girl. Remember, Rose said that 342 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Joe said some guy paid him to do it, but 343 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: Chris said that Joe told them he was killing her 344 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: for his as in Joe's girlfriend, because his girlfriend didn't 345 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: like the girl. It's unclear who his girlfriend was at 346 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: the time. We knocked on a few doors looking for 347 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: Chris and we had no luck. Seems like he moves 348 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: around a lot. And then we finally found someone. 349 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 6: Hello, Hi, good morning. We're looking for Chris Campbell. 350 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 3: Does he live here. 351 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: No, he don't live here anymore. 352 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 8: Okay, and you don't have any Okay, you don't do 353 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 8: you know him? Know where he would live currently? No? 354 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: He left me and wait with some other girl and oh, 355 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: so you didn't do me? 356 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, I did live here? 357 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 7: Any other thing anymore? 358 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: Okay, Now I want to explain something before we go 359 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: any further. You'll notice in all of the interviews it's 360 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: not me conducting them as I normally would. It's Danny 361 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 1: and John, the two private investigators. And there's a reason 362 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: for this because the sole purpose of this investigation and 363 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: this podcast is to find out if David is telling 364 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: the truth, and if so, get David back in court, 365 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: which would give him a shot at overturning his conviction, 366 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: and we could potentially find who really killed Levonne. But 367 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: we have to take precautions. If I'm part of the interviews, 368 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: that could be seen as witness tampering. I'm not a 369 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: licensed private investigator like John and Danny. So although it's 370 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: incredibly unusual and uncomfortable for me, I don't want to 371 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: mess anything up, so I stay back and let them 372 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: handle the interviews. 373 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: How long how long has he been gone? It's been 374 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: a mother two weeks or so. 375 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 7: Do you know who she is or where we might 376 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 7: could find him? 377 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: H was he driving? 378 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 6: These days? 379 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: Chris would be harder to find than we thought. We 380 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: missed him at his house by two weeks. He's transient, 381 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend, kind of like Joe was. 382 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: And what Joe says about Chris brings up the possibility 383 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: that Chris could have been lying. 384 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 7: Been cool I because of a few reasons, and told 385 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 7: almost factill fight when I was in naked JGF. 386 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 10: And on top of that, I he knew that I 387 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 10: was pretty much racist and made very big for that. 388 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: This is Joe talking to Sue in their first phone call. 389 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: Joe is white and Chris is black, and Joe was 390 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: by his own account racist, so the two didn't get along. 391 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: According to Joe, Joe also got expelled because of a 392 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: fight with Chris, So maybe that meant there was motivation 393 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: for Chris to lie, kind of like revenge. And if 394 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: there was motive for Chris, there could have been motive 395 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: for Rose, who was his girlfriend at the time. Rose 396 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: told police Chris told her not to say anything, and 397 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: she told police and her tape statement that she's afraid 398 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:26,959 Speaker 1: of Chris. 399 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 10: Why you haven't come forward toil enough? 400 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 7: Because I've been scared for my life because Chris Campbell 401 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 7: told me if I said anything, and he would come 402 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 7: after me, and that's why I've been scared, because I 403 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 7: don't want to die. 404 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 11: I tasted my children to raise. 405 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: Police records say the couple ultimately broke up because of 406 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,120 Speaker 1: domestic violence problems. So maybe Rose was scared of him, 407 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: maybe scared enough to say whatever he wanted her to. 408 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: People do things when they're scared, like sometimes lie. We wondered, 409 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: was it possible she lied to protect Chris in some way? 410 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: We hoped that since so much time had passed, she'd 411 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 1: be willing to open up whatever Rose will say. Sue 412 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 1: is convinced Chris would tell us the truth. Twenty two 413 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: years later, Sue insists that Chris told her he made 414 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: up the conversation with Joe, although she says he wouldn't 415 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: sign an f David. As we set out to find 416 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: another address for Chris, John got a text back from Rose. 417 00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: John asked if we could come by after the dentist, 418 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: and she responded, quote, no, I'm not interested in talking. 419 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: I gave my testimony in court many years ago. Nothing 420 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: has changed. 421 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 5: How can we take another I mean, I'll tell her 422 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 5: that I completely understand. 423 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 2: We just, you know, let's just play it off. Maybe 424 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: play it off. 425 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 6: That there's some new efforming. 426 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: John texted back and never received a reply. But we're 427 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: nothing if not persistent. Investigative work takes a lot of patience, 428 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: a lot of waiting. You get hopeful, and then your 429 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: hopes are dashed, and then every now and then you 430 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: get lucky. Something comes together, something works out. 431 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 6: I'm ready for ready, let's go see what old Chris 432 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 6: Campbell's up to. 433 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: We knocked on a few other doors, found an ex wife, 434 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: and got a new address. We left to go wait 435 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: for Chris to get off work. 436 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: Image. I got a spooky attic. 437 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 6: You think it's haunted. I think there's bones up there. 438 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: About twenty minutes of waiting, we spotted someone and they 439 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: matched Chris's description, walking towards the address we had for him. 440 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 6: He just walked his ass all the way from Harrison. 441 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 6: That's funny. 442 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 8: I just looked up out on the corner of my 443 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 8: eye and there's. 444 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: A dude walking. 445 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: We really almost just missed that. He must have been 446 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: walking near us for a while. 447 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 6: You have oz on, I have eyes. If he crosses 448 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 6: the road, I think he's crossing. Well, he may just 449 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 6: be walking around that. 450 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 7: I think he's crossing. 451 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 6: He's right by their house. 452 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: Right now, there he is, he's crossing. 453 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 6: That's him, you see, Yes, I see that's him. Maybe. Probably. 454 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 5: I'm gonna go with probably right now, I'm about to 455 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 5: go with likely. 456 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: Now I'm going definitely. 457 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: The man we were watching walked into Chris's house. 458 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 6: Well I think we let him settle. Yeah, that's a 459 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 6: hot ass walk fuck yeah. Man. 460 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: After about another twenty minutes, Danny and John decided to 461 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: go not. 462 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 6: Hi, Chris, how you doing Chris? 463 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 2: Chris? 464 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 7: I'm Danny wax for This is John Harden. 465 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: I was hoping I could have a minute to talk 466 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: to you. 467 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 3: All right, who are you? 468 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:16,479 Speaker 2: So? 469 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 6: We work for an innocence project. 470 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: They do their normal spiel. 471 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 7: What has happened is is there's been a resurgence of 472 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 7: attention on the case, but we feel like we've got 473 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 7: a new path. We feel like both of these guys 474 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 7: are innocent, but part of that is going and figuring 475 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 7: out who really was responsible. 476 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: At this point, I was still waiting in the car, 477 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: watching from the road. I had no idea if Chris 478 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: was going to flip out at them or slam the 479 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: door in their faces. But he did neither of those things. 480 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: He actually invited them in. 481 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 7: You knew Joe and what was your relationship with Joe? 482 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: Like, man, I think I was the only friend. 483 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 6: Really, yeah, or in the neighborhood or. 484 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: School together. We were in masonry together. What was he 485 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 2: like when we haven't met him. 486 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 7: We've heard that he's at a lower level mentally cognitively, so, 487 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 7: but we don't know that. 488 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: We haven't spoken to him. So did you ever think of. 489 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 6: Joe as a racist? 490 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: What? No? 491 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 7: No, okay, okay, because he's we That's why we feel 492 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 7: like he's. 493 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 6: He would be let off a cliff. 494 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 7: If he if someone he looked up to told him 495 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 7: to jump off the cliff. So when one of his 496 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 7: narratives was you and him hated each other because he was, 497 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 7: he's verbatim. 498 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 2: This is what he said. 499 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 7: I was pretty much a racist and he knew it. 500 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 6: You're either are You're not right? 501 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 9: We're like, pretty much, that's not something you're on the 502 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 9: fence on. Right, And now that we know you were 503 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 9: his only freaking friend at the time, it didn't matter 504 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 9: if you were purple. 505 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 3: He needed a friend, right. 506 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 6: Wow, it's so crazy. 507 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: So that motive we'd conjured for Chris to lie was 508 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: blown right out of the water. But maybe Chris was 509 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: an informant and was given a deal to lie. There 510 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: were some things that made us think this. For one, 511 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: Chris was arrested July sixteenth for drug possession, just two 512 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: days after Joe was brought in for questioning. Chris was 513 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: held until after trial and then released four time served. 514 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 6: So did you think it was weird? 515 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 2: The right after. 516 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 7: I think it was the fourteenth of July, him and 517 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 7: David Dorn And then two days later they arrest you 518 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 7: in the park for putting your hand in your pocket. 519 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: Do you remember that? 520 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 6: It wasn't that odd? 521 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 7: It was odd to us because all we see are 522 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 7: the documents, and then they tried to keep you in jail, 523 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 7: and then when the trial is over and they're convicted, 524 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 7: they give you time served and you're done. 525 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 2: What do you think that was about. I think they 526 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: wanted to take Joe down. M I knew Joe, you 527 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: know what I mean. 528 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 10: So, and from their knowledge, I was the last one 529 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 10: to talk to Joe. 530 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 2: He could have murder happened, you know what I mean. 531 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 10: And I do remember that detective too. I can't remember 532 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 10: his name, but he kept saying, you owe me a favor. 533 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 10: You owed me a favorite LIKEE gone. 534 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: This was odd, and sitting in the car listening to everything, 535 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think Chris had to have gotten 536 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: a deal, and if that was the case, the prosecution 537 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 1: was required to disclose that and they didn't, so that 538 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: would be huge for David's case. 539 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 8: Did they ever like lean on you to say something 540 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 8: like they need your help and they'll do something for 541 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 8: you and give you something. 542 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: And they God, that's what it was. But that's the 543 00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: only thing I have that is the truth. 544 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 8: So the police never leaned on you to tell them 545 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 8: something that wasn't true. Did they ask you to do that? 546 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 8: Did they ask you to fill some holes for them 547 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 8: with things that you didn't think were right. 548 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: No, So they put to bed as best they could 549 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: that Chris got a deal. We have no reason to 550 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: doubt his original statement, though they did want to ask 551 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: why Chris and Rose's statements didn't exactly match up. 552 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 7: Rose said, some guy had hired Joe to kill Yvonne. 553 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 7: But you had said in your initial thing that Joe 554 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 7: told you his girlfriend, his own girlfriend had sent him 555 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 7: to do the job. 556 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 6: That was a big. 557 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 7: Variance, right, There's a big difference between some guy paid 558 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 7: me off to. In your view, what Joe had said 559 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 7: was that his girlfriend had sent him to do the job. 560 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 7: His own girlfriend. 561 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, does that ring a bell or. 562 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 10: I remember that conversation. 563 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 8: Yeah, So he was saying that maybe the dude's girlfriend 564 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 8: hired him. 565 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Yeah, you didn't have a girlfriend. It was 566 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: a dude's girlfriend. 567 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: Chris didn't waiver. He said the same thing he told 568 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: police in his original statements, that Joe said a girlfriend 569 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: put him up to the murder. It was never clear 570 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: to Chris whose girlfriend, but he did know that Joe 571 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 1: didn't have a girlfriend. Chris also told Danny and John 572 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: that what Joe told him at the mall just didn't 573 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: make sense. 574 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 10: I can't physically say that he didn't. Yeah, tell you 575 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 10: what I know. I can tell you what he told me, 576 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 10: But I can also tell you what I do. I 577 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 10: don't believe that he walked from exactly ma All on 578 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 10: Stage Street. 579 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 7: Yeah, in a white jogging suit, all the way down like. 580 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 8: Four point two miles and a well lit street. 581 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 582 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: Remember it's a highway. And Joe would like be covered 583 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: in blood. 584 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 11: And then a knife he showed me, and then the 585 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 11: knife and Day showed me. 586 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: It didn't match up. 587 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: Remember Rose originally said it was an eight inch knife 588 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: in a sheath, and by the time of trial, the 589 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: police were showing Rose and Chris a folding pocket knife. 590 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 10: I remember then in fact, that took me to Kmar too. 591 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: At them all. It was like, we showed me the 592 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 2: night and I showed him. 593 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 8: It was a folding knife. 594 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 10: Yeah, it a matter of fact, I said, Joe, who 595 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 10: are you gonna kill with that? 596 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 1: Chris said the knife was a folding knife, like his 597 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: original statement. So if Chris said he told the truth, 598 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: could that maybe mean he mixed up his days? 599 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 7: How sure are you that it was that same day, 600 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 7: the day before she was actually killed, because. 601 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 11: That night we talked to him, and then then the 602 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 11: very next morning Rose heard about it and immediately he said, well, 603 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 11: we're not dinner one, I'm calling the cop. So the 604 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 11: next day, yeah, that she brought it and I was like. 605 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: No, can do that? You know what I mean? 606 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 6: Yeah? 607 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, that's all I just came about because 608 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: she called. 609 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: They asked him to walk through the night. 610 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 10: Okay, So as we walked in there, I seen him 611 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 10: in the in the food cory. 612 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 7: And what did he come up to you? 613 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 8: Oh? 614 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 10: Okay, so what he was doing here, and that's what 615 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 10: he said, Yeah, the job to do blah blah blah. 616 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 7: Did he say what the job to do was? 617 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? 618 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 10: Oh yeah, I told we talked about everything that he 619 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 10: liked squirrel. 620 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 2: At first, I didn't believe him. 621 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 7: Like, yeah, right, that's not something your buddy typically comes 622 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 7: out of his mouth. 623 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: Right. 624 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: Everything Chris said to us matched his original story. And 625 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: even though Chris was adamant Joe told him he was 626 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: there to kill a girl, and even though a girl 627 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: did in fact get murdered that night, Chris said he 628 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: still doesn't believe Joe is the killer. 629 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 10: Joe loves kids, Yeah, and Joe wouldn't do that, not 630 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 10: in front of no kids anyway. 631 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's like it doesn't add up. It doesn't make. 632 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 8: You think so I probably got coached by the cops. 633 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 7: Think. 634 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was already scared to begin with. Yeah, she 635 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: was already scared. 636 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 11: Yeah, and uh, we broke up after that after she 637 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 11: called the cops and yeah, we don't even know for 638 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 11: sure and. 639 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 4: Grow yeah yeah like ship clue. 640 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 10: Yeah, after she called the cop or whatever I say, 641 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 10: I didn't talked to her friend either. 642 00:34:54,560 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Chris said, Rose was coached, but he doesn't 643 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: know for sure, and we don't know either. We don't 644 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 1: know why some of the details of their stories differ, 645 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: why the knives are different, and why Chris said that 646 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: the killing was to be done for a girlfriend but 647 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: Rose didn't. Now it occurred to me that Chris could 648 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: be inclined to stick with his original story just to 649 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 1: avoid any kind of perjury charge. I mean, the guy 650 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: is well versed with the law considering all his run ins, 651 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: and he's certainly not stupid. But both he and Rose 652 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: are sticking to their original stories, so that leaves us 653 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: with Joe. But there were other good suspects to look 654 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 1: at as well. Something always bothered me about Vinnie being 655 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: out of his crib and dressed. Preston said, only someone 656 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: he trusted could dress him. Maybe someone like the psychic's 657 00:35:52,280 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: main person of interest coming up on death and deceit 658 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: and alliance. 659 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 6: Somebody was in that house. Then it was a It 660 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 6: sounded to me like a woman's voice. 661 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: I really don't want to say anything. 662 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 2: Why's that? Because I'm tired of being dragged in the 663 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 2: middle of it. 664 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 6: If you're not in the middle, oh, I have been for. 665 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 2: The last twenty two years. How did you tell you 666 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 2: to fight me here? 667 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 8: So you remember seeing him? My boyfriend my ex husband now, 668 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 8: but my boyfriend at the time. 669 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: We saw him there that night. 670 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 8: If Joe's giving her permission so to speak to talk 671 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 8: with us, you would think Joe's not worried about what 672 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 8: she's going to tell us. 673 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: I truly, honestly believe he didn't do it. 674 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 7: I know David wanted him to, and I was under 675 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,359 Speaker 7: the impression that Dave was. 676 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: Going to pay him to death and deceit. And Alliance 677 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: is produced and supported by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial 678 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. 679 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production 680 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.