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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I have just come out

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Speaker 1: of the courthouse here at Delphi, and I've got to

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Speaker 1: tell you it's nothing like you would ever imagine. Richard

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Speaker 1: Allen comes in the room, assesses the entire situation, flanked

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Speaker 1: by his lawyers, and then incomes the jury. In the

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Speaker 1: last hours, I have heard testimony that I believe will

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Speaker 1: render a verdict one way or the other. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: To the killer who may be in this room, we

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Speaker 2: believe you are hiding in plain sight. You never thought

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Speaker 2: we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but

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Speaker 2: we have. We know that this is about power to you,

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Speaker 2: and you want to know what we know, and one day.

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Speaker 1: You will well.

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Speaker 3: Abby William's blood is in one spot of the crime

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Speaker 3: I'm seeing. Major Pat Cicero says, Libby Germans blood is

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Speaker 3: found in multiple spots of the crime scene. Cicero says

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Speaker 3: Libby was likely attacked close by, but at one point

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Speaker 3: was actually moving and basically walking in blood. Based on

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Speaker 3: a large amount of Libby's blood being found in one spot,

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Speaker 3: it is determined that Libby blood to death a short

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Speaker 3: distance away from where she was first attacked. Also, after

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Speaker 3: Libby was dead, her body was later dragged a short

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Speaker 3: distance and placed close to a large tree.

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Speaker 1: These are some of the facts that the jury has

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Speaker 1: already heard about the way these girls' bodies were found

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Speaker 1: that I can tell you from being in the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: It gets much worse. In the last hours. We have

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Speaker 1: her testimony from a psychologist who saw Richard Allen practically

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Speaker 1: every day behind bars. I heard her describe and I

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Speaker 1: saw Richard Allen's jaw working. The worse it got, the

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Speaker 1: worst it got. I am telling you I would stay

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Speaker 1: everything that I have ever done in court, everything I

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Speaker 1: know about the law on this. Richard Allen is not insane.

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Speaker 1: He did not have a psychotic break. He knows exactly

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Speaker 1: what he's doing, and he is playing everybody will that

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Speaker 1: include the jury. I watch this guy, Nudge's lawyer say

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Speaker 1: something and they give him mints. He asks for water,

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Speaker 1: he asks for a writing pad, He takes notes, he

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Speaker 1: flips the page, he looks around, and he looks back

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Speaker 1: at a group of YouTubers who are very pro defense,

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Speaker 1: who have been publishing horrible things about the victims' families online.

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Speaker 1: I would be very surprised if they don't get sued.

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Speaker 1: These people that are trashing the victims' families suggesting that

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Speaker 1: they had something to do with the murders. Yeah, think

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Speaker 1: about Bert Ramsey before you keep doing that, you YouTubers

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Speaker 1: blaming the victims' families. But that said, let me get

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Speaker 1: back to the evidence. Joining me in All Star Panel,

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Speaker 1: But first I want to go straight out to investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Susan Hendricks, author of Down the Hill, My Descent

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Speaker 1: into the double murder in Delphi. Okay, it all started

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Speaker 1: off this morning with the first witness on the stand,

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Speaker 1: her name doctor Walla, and she describes multiple confessions the

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Speaker 1: defendant game and the prosecutor, a female prosecutor, is very

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Speaker 1: careful to ask lead up to it. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: thought I was going to jump out of my seat

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Speaker 1: with all the lead up, But now I understand why,

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Speaker 1: how was he acting, what was his demeanor? What else

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Speaker 1: was he saying? And I want to reiterate this. After

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Speaker 1: this guy would give a confession to murdering Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 1: claiming he wanted to rape them, but he saw some

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Speaker 1: guy and he backed off. That that's why he took

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Speaker 1: them down there After he would tell the psychologist this

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Speaker 1: while he was incarcerated with then go, look, I'm worried

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Speaker 1: about I'm not getting enough water. I want my property back,

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Speaker 1: I want a tablet, I want to talk to my wife.

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Speaker 1: I want to change jails. He knew exactly what he

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Speaker 1: was saying. Those confessions were just like, hey, can I

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Speaker 1: have that bottom of water? Please? Can you hand me that?

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix. He is just as sane as everybody's sitting

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Speaker 1: up in Congress right now, Susan Hendrix. Can we go

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Speaker 1: straight to the first confession she outlined in court? And

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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I'm looking at the jury,

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix, and I can already see alliances and I

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Speaker 1: conventure to guess who's going to vote which way. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know enough yet, Susan. Let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: confession hit me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was riveting inside. And we've been

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Speaker 4: dying to hear from Richard Allen himself.

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Speaker 5: But he is manipulated.

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Speaker 4: And he would just say, nonchalantly, I killed Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 4: but on a coward, I won't kill myself.

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Speaker 5: And it went on and on.

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Speaker 4: But you're right, we've talked about following them on the

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Speaker 4: bridge leading them down the hill. In his own words,

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Speaker 4: I looked over at Abby and Livie's fanileies and tears.

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Speaker 4: It was a long time coming that they finally heard

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Speaker 4: about that.

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Speaker 1: Well, what was so amazing to me, Susan Hendricks, is

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Speaker 1: how he could shift gears. He was completely nonplussed. He

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Speaker 1: would say, I killed Abby and Libby. You know, my

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Speaker 1: wife doesn't believe me. At one juncture, Hey, let's go

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Speaker 1: straight out to Cheryl McCullum joining us. He has been

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Speaker 1: on the case from the very beginning. Founder director of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute and forensic expert. Cheryl, I

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Speaker 1: just wish you had seen this in court today. One thing,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor knew the psychologist records better than she did.

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Speaker 1: She was having to flip through pages throughout. The prosecutor

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Speaker 1: would have to direct her to a certain document and

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Speaker 1: a certain paragraph in the document to get her to

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Speaker 1: understand what the question was. That can work both ways, Cheryl.

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Speaker 1: Number one, she can look on for pay. But number two,

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Speaker 1: she clearly does not have a dog in the fight.

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Speaker 1: She's not trying to convict this guy, or she would

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Speaker 1: have the answers at the tip of her tongue. Right.

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Speaker 1: So it was amazing to me, Cheryl McCollum, that Alan

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Speaker 1: would be saying I killed Abby and Libby. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to rape them. But this goes back to what you

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Speaker 1: were telling me the other day. But I was interrupted.

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Speaker 1: I thought I saw a guy. Saw backed off. Then

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Speaker 1: within a matter of minutes he'll start saying, I'm worried,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to get enough water behind bars, I

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Speaker 1: want to change facilities, I want to be closer to

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Speaker 1: my family. I mean, he's clearly totally sane, Cheryl Nancy.

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Speaker 6: They had nine correction officers testify when I was there

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Speaker 6: that he would wait and watch them and would then

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Speaker 6: do things when he knew they were looking at him,

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Speaker 6: like that's when he would.

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Speaker 1: Drink the toilet water.

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Speaker 6: They felt like he was doing that deliberately to make

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Speaker 6: them believe he was insane.

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Speaker 1: That none of them thought he was. Okay, I've got

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Speaker 1: a theory, everybody. Let's go to Philip Dubay, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of LA in the Public Defender's Office,

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Speaker 1: which means he tries a lot of cases. Philip, this

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Speaker 1: is what I think is happening, and you help me

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Speaker 1: figure out a way to shoot it. Down all right.

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Speaker 1: I think they are going to argue. The defense is

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Speaker 1: going to argue that, of course, Richard Allen degenerated behind

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Speaker 1: bars and he was out of his mind from being

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Speaker 1: in solitary when he gave those confessions. I think the

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Speaker 1: stake is putting laying a foundation right now, Philip, to

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Speaker 1: show that he was confessing until he started confessing to

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Speaker 1: his wife and she said shut the h up, stop

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Speaker 1: saying that. She called his lawyers. Then he meets with

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Speaker 1: his lawyers, and then suddenly, Philip, he starts eating paper,

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Speaker 1: smearing feces, drinking toilet water. He had done nothing of

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Speaker 1: that up until the time he tells his what I

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Speaker 1: did it, and she calls him the lawyers, and then

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Speaker 1: he starts acting crazy. Philip, Debay, you see what I'm

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Speaker 1: saying here. He was giving confessions, his wife told the lawyers,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly, amazingly, he has a psychotic break. Are

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Speaker 1: you with me? Dubate?

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Speaker 7: Of course, So if I were defending him, this is

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Speaker 7: how I would tackle it. At the test for the

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Speaker 7: volunteeriness of confessions, it's not psychosis or insanity, it's whether

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Speaker 7: or not the conditions were so treacherous and so dreadful

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Speaker 7: that you would cop to anything to change your conditions

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Speaker 7: and surroundings, and by copping out to crimes, in his mind,

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Speaker 7: he thought that they would improve the conditions, give him

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Speaker 7: better food, give him a better sell, and not cut

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Speaker 7: him off from the outside world. And that is the

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Speaker 7: whole theory behind film involuntary confessions.

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Speaker 1: You'll cop to anything, Yes, how can you reconcile the

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Speaker 1: two things that you just said. You said that they're

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Speaker 1: going to argue the conditions in solitary were so horrible

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Speaker 1: that he had a psychotic break, But yet you also

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Speaker 1: said he's angling to get better food, go to a

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Speaker 1: better prison, get more water, get more visits. How can

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Speaker 1: you be crazy and yet you're angling to get better treatment.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's not crazy, that's crazy like a Fox debate.

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Speaker 7: No, no, no. What you're doing is you're trying to

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Speaker 7: let everybody know that your situation is wreaking havoc on

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Speaker 7: the human psyche due to either under or malnourishment, and

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Speaker 7: he's losing his mind frankly, but not to the point

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Speaker 7: of psychosis or insanity. But to get people to listen

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Speaker 7: to him and feed him properly, give him something to drink,

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Speaker 7: talk to him like a normal person and take him

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Speaker 7: out of those tortuous type conditions so that he can

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Speaker 7: take ag over his life without being non compassment. Is

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Speaker 7: because I truly believe that the malnourishment and the undernourishment

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Speaker 7: was taking an emotional and a mental toll on him

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Speaker 7: to the point that he would say any sail up

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Speaker 7: to get the guard's attention.

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Speaker 1: Philip, what under nourishment? He says, I want more bottle waters.

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Speaker 1: They give it to him. He eats all of his food.

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Speaker 1: What under nourishment are you even talking about? Are you

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Speaker 1: just just spinning this out like ruppel Steelskin? Well, what

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Speaker 1: are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 7: No, don't you remember the man was waste to go

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Speaker 7: way to nothing. He was emaciated, there was nothing looked

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Speaker 7: at him.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want to look like the bridge guy. They're

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Speaker 1: giving him food. He's changing his appearance. Do you think

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy wasn't giving food. No, he changed his appearents

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Speaker 1: of loss of weight so he could escape from a

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Speaker 1: heat vent. No, you come on, I'm talking about it,

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Speaker 1: making it about what I just saw in court.

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Speaker 7: I know, but you're making it sound like they were

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Speaker 7: giving him a Schmorgus for it every day and he

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Speaker 7: can eat to his heart's contented.

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Speaker 1: And you're making it sound like they were starting pretty

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Speaker 1: much okay in a way, I can see where this

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Speaker 1: is going. Let me understand your theory is he starved

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Speaker 1: himself into a psychotic break. I don't know that that's possible,

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Speaker 1: but maybe in Philip dubay world it is. Let's go

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Speaker 1: through regardless of what Dubay is advancing right now, Susan Hendrix,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to what we learned in

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Speaker 1: court today. I want to go to if I can

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Speaker 1: way through all of my notes, let me get back

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Speaker 1: to page seven of my notes. He said he wanted closure,

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Speaker 1: that he wanted to sign his confession, that he wanted

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Speaker 1: to apologize to his family, and that he was trying

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Speaker 1: to forgive himself. At this point, he was quote not disorganized.

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Speaker 1: He had a coherent speech and appearance. He did not cry.

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Speaker 1: He stated that he took the girls down to rape them,

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Speaker 1: that he was interrupted he saw a guy or heard

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Speaker 1: a guy. He stated that he covered their bodies up

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Speaker 1: with twigs, and he said branches. He covered their bodies

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Speaker 1: with branches. He said, I didn't do all the things

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Speaker 1: I've said I've done but I did kill Abby and Libby,

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Speaker 1: but my wife won't believe me. He wanted to know

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Speaker 1: if his family would quote keep loving him. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he asked a psychologist to get him a phone. She

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Speaker 1: did get him a phone. He spoke to his wife

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Speaker 1: when she came back into the room the psychologist. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to recall the wife and he went, no, I

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Speaker 1: want you to stay in here. I want you to

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Speaker 1: hear it. And he continued to confess. Susan relate to

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Speaker 1: everyone what we've just heard in court.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and hearing doctor Walla on the stand, Nancy, as

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Speaker 4: you said, and saying at one point that he may

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Speaker 4: lested his sister. Another time, as you mentioned, saying he

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Speaker 4: was interrupted and that could either read Libby's dad who

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Speaker 4: was set there to pick her up around three point thirty?

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Speaker 5: Was he calling her name?

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Speaker 4: Did that interrupt Richard Allen? But finally admitted to this,

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Speaker 4: and yesterday he looked very different. We saw the October

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty two video, the first interview, What do you

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Speaker 4: seem like a normal guy?

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Speaker 5: Though nothing was wrong?

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Speaker 4: Now he's meek, putting his head down, glaring back and

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Speaker 4: his wife are absolutely right, these are key to this case.

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Speaker 4: I believe that he's not insane, that that high security

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Speaker 4: prison did not cause him to become insane. I believe

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Speaker 4: he leaves manipulated, manipulative, and did kill Abby and Libby

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Speaker 4: from his own works, says a Hendrick.

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Speaker 1: She kind of glossed over a big bombshell in the courtroom.

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Speaker 1: He said that his words to the effect that his problem,

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Speaker 1: that's what he called it. I was calling it attraction

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Speaker 1: to underage girls. But his problem all started when he

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Speaker 1: molested his sister. That's what he set in court. Did

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Speaker 1: you hear that?

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Speaker 4: I heard that and I wrote it down, and he said,

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Speaker 4: molesting his sister, that molesting kids his own age when

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Speaker 4: he was younger. And Nancy, I know you remember this

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Speaker 4: when he said he thought Abby and Libby were older.

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Speaker 5: This is after the fact, after he killed them. It

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Speaker 5: dawned on him, Oh I thought they were older.

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Speaker 1: What is your last memory?

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Speaker 8: She was standing at the door with a smile that

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Speaker 8: she has, and I said it could be a little

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Speaker 8: chilly out there.

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Speaker 1: You get a jacket. She just looked at me and

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Speaker 1: smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, Groy. That's

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Speaker 1: that's my last memory.

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Speaker 9: Dropping her off of their house were there were their paints.

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Speaker 1: That is the last visual I have with left girl.

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Speaker 5: It's on that bridge.

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Speaker 10: Explaining how Libby's blood ended up on a small tree

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Speaker 10: about four feet from the ground, Major Cicero says it's

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Speaker 10: likely a blood transfer as the result of coming in

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Speaker 10: contact with the bloody body of Libby German. Cicero believes

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Speaker 10: at least one of her neck injuries happened near the

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Speaker 10: small tree. Cicero also believes Libby left a bloody handprin

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Speaker 10: shaped like an upside down l on one of the trees.

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Speaker 1: We are camped outside the del Fi Courthouse and have

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Speaker 1: just come out of the courtroom bringing you the very

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Speaker 1: latest and I will guarantee you whether the jury hears

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Speaker 1: it or not from the experts. Richard Allen is not crazy.

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Speaker 1: Richard Allen did not have a psychotic break behind bars.

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Speaker 1: He is playing everybody like a fiddle. Joining me right

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Speaker 1: now is Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified Bloodstained pattern Analyst, Senior

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Speaker 1: crime scene analyst, a death investigator, former toxicology lab analyst.

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Speaker 1: It goes on and on, but listen to this author

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Speaker 1: of forensic science Applications to death and crime scene investigations

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Speaker 1: and many more. Jeffrey Gentry, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being with us. Jeff I want you to hear this. Listen.

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Speaker 3: The crime scene has multiple areas of blood that are

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Speaker 3: almost all from Livy German, and in an area away

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Speaker 3: from where the bodies of Liby and Abbey are found

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Speaker 3: is a big pool of blood near a tree. This

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Speaker 3: is the spot where Libby's throat is slit and where

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Speaker 3: she most likely grabs at her neck as a reflex

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Speaker 3: action to try and slow the bleeding. It is in

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Speaker 3: this spot where Libby German slumps against the tree, unable

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Speaker 3: to stop the bleeding, accounting for the vast amount of

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Speaker 3: blood on her hands, before coming to a seated position

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Speaker 3: near where the largest pool of coagulating blood is found.

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, could you explain what we just heard how

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Speaker 1: you can tell what happened by the blood analysis.

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Speaker 11: Yes, Nancy, I'm really happy that the prosecution used a

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Speaker 11: blood powdered analyst, because that's what blood analysis is for.

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Speaker 11: It's for explaining unwitnessed events when there's blood at a seam,

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Speaker 11: and if you have blood, it's going to explain events

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Speaker 11: that occurred and in this case there it was obviously

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Speaker 11: a lot of blood. These poor little girls suffered quite

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Speaker 11: a bit. And in this case, the young lady that

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Speaker 11: was found owned there was taken from one location to another.

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Speaker 11: There were blood transfers on the tree, and they were

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Speaker 11: up high enough that would indicate that she was upright

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Speaker 11: at some point during.

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Speaker 1: Could you just hold on just one moment, I'm drinking

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Speaker 1: for the fire hydrant here. You're giving me so much information.

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Speaker 1: Could you repeat the starting two sentences ago about how

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Speaker 1: the blood transfer got on the tree and what that

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Speaker 1: means to you in combination with the highly saturated earth

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Speaker 1: saturated with blood.

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Speaker 11: Yes, So this young lady sustained neck injuries or major

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Speaker 11: major wounds that are going to bleed a lot, and

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Speaker 11: they're going to bleed very fast, and almost always as

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Speaker 11: a reaction to these type of injuries, a victim is

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Speaker 11: going to touch the wound, and so by touching that wound,

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Speaker 11: they're going to transfer blood to their hand or their arms,

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Speaker 11: and in an effort to either fight off their attacker

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Speaker 11: or just to survive themselves, they're going to touch other objects.

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Speaker 11: And so that's exactly what happened in this case. There

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Speaker 11: were blood transfer stains that were high enough up on

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Speaker 11: a tree that would indicate that she was in a

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Speaker 11: standing position. So she's touched this wound, she knows she's injured,

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Speaker 11: and then she's transferring her own blood to this tree,

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Speaker 11: either by her fingers or hand or body parts that

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Speaker 11: are bloody. But then at some point you're going to

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Speaker 11: start to suffer the effects of blood loss, and so

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Speaker 11: there was evidence that she bleds significantly near that tree.

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Speaker 11: So you have blood that's accumulated on the ground. It's

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Speaker 11: normally like if you had it in a living room

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Speaker 11: or on a tile floor, you would see a giant

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Speaker 11: blood pool, but in this case, it's out in the open,

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Speaker 11: it's on dirt or branches, and so you see that

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Speaker 11: there is evidence of a large volume of blood there

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Speaker 11: that starts to obviously coagulate and dry. So that's how

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Speaker 11: we know that not only was she injured when she

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Speaker 11: was standing, but then she's essentially fighting off or trying

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Speaker 11: to get away from her attacker.

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Speaker 5: She touches the.

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Speaker 11: Tree while standing, and then as she sustains the effects

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Speaker 11: of blood loss, she then likely collapses in that area,

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Speaker 11: allowing blood to accumulate on the ground near the tree,

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Speaker 11: and again That's what blood potter and analysis is all about.

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Speaker 11: It's there to explain events that are unwitnessed. When there

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Speaker 11: is bleeding that has occurred.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this, Jeff.

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Speaker 10: The large fool of blood near the base of the

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Speaker 10: small tree is most likely the spot where Libby dies.

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Speaker 10: She's then dragged to the location where her body will

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Speaker 10: be found the next day. Major past Ciro says the

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Speaker 10: streaks of blood that run from Libby's right eye to

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Speaker 10: her ear were textbook consistent with dilution, pointing out how

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Speaker 10: they get lighter and lighter and describing it as absent rain,

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Speaker 10: drop or water. He says the source of the thinning

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Speaker 10: was a tear. Sniffles are heard through the courtroom and

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Speaker 10: it's at this point they carry Timmins Liberty German's mother

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Speaker 10: breaks down.

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Speaker 1: All along the victims parents' grandparents have hoped and prayed

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Speaker 1: the girls died quickly. When the evidence of the blood

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Speaker 1: mingled with the girl's tears came out in court, the

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Speaker 1: family couldn't take it. It's horrible crime stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: to Jeff Gentry, if you could analyze what you are hearing.

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Speaker 1: Number one that based on the blood evidence alone, the

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Speaker 1: detectives know that at least one of the girls was

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Speaker 1: dragged to where she was found. And number two, how

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Speaker 1: do you determine that a tear going down the side

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Speaker 1: of the face was mixed with or diluted with a

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Speaker 1: tear was diluted with blood?

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Speaker 11: Okay, I'll tackle those in the order you gave them

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Speaker 11: to me. So, the body being transferred from one location

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Speaker 11: to another, just like the blood that was transferred to

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Speaker 11: a tree, You'll see evidence of blood transfer on the ground.

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Speaker 11: When somebody is bleeding, they're going to either continue to

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Speaker 11: bleed or if they already died, they're going to have

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Speaker 11: blood on their body. So you can see blood that

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Speaker 11: has been transferred from one location to another. And just

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Speaker 11: the mere fact that these injuries were so severe and

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Speaker 11: that there was a large accumulation of blood near the tree,

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Speaker 11: naturally you would assume that this young lady likely died

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Speaker 11: near the tree. And then since their body was found

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Speaker 11: in another location, that it was transferred from one spot

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Speaker 11: to another. In addition to that, there will be blows

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Speaker 11: or blood that has went from one location to another

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Speaker 11: on the body. And so when the body is found

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Speaker 11: in a position that contradicts those flow patterns, you can

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Speaker 11: also tell that the body has been moved, and that

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Speaker 11: was case on her body as far as the tears go.

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Speaker 11: That's an amazing observation by the blood analyst. So I'm

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Speaker 11: very proud that they found that, because it's hard to

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Speaker 11: see those kind of things, and considering that he was

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Speaker 11: going in after the fact and looking at photographs, it's

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Speaker 11: difficult to see those type of things. But what you're

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Speaker 11: looking at on the body, and when you bleed, the

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Speaker 11: blood is going to dry on the body rather quickly,

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Speaker 11: and if there's a diluting substance, you'll be able to

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Speaker 11: see that. And in this case it was near her

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Speaker 11: eyes or her face. That would indicate that the only

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Speaker 11: fluid source available was tears, and so that'll dilute the blood.

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Speaker 11: A picture anytime you've ever bled, like if you've cut

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Speaker 11: yourself shaving or you had a little cut on your

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Speaker 11: hand and you bleed in the sink, well, when you

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Speaker 11: turn on the water, it's going to dilute the blood

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Speaker 11: and that's what it's going to look like. The question

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Speaker 11: I believe that was brought up in for it is

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Speaker 11: was it maybe condensation or environmental factors? And if it

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Speaker 11: was an environmental factor or like condensation or rain, you

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Speaker 11: would see the blood diluted uniformly throughout the entire body

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Speaker 11: or all the blood stands on the body, whereas in

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Speaker 11: this case they just saw that near the area of

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Speaker 11: the eye or the face, and that would provide additional

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Speaker 11: evidence that it was tears that diluted the blood as

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Speaker 11: opposed to some other some of the fluid or condensation.

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Speaker 8: The deaths of Libby, Jermy and Abby Williams have impacted

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Speaker 8: the Delphi community and beyond. The crime scene photos and

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Speaker 8: testimony have been hard to see and hear, But when

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Speaker 8: Major Pat Cico explains how blood that flowed down Libby's

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Speaker 8: face bore the tracks of the teen's tears, it was

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Speaker 8: almost too much to bear. As your mother breaks down

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Speaker 8: and weeps in the courtroom.

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Speaker 9: The focus now of the defense is the timeline, not

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Speaker 9: what did they do, when did they do it? And

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Speaker 9: who was around to see it? And what did they

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Speaker 9: tell authorities?

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Speaker 6: The timeline is critical because she did not record just

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Speaker 6: guys down the hill.

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Speaker 1: We all know that there's more well.

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Speaker 3: Libby German has blood on her body and hands, has

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Speaker 3: multiple cuts to her throat, and walked in the blood

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Speaker 3: Abby Williams.

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Speaker 1: Is much different.

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Speaker 3: Major pat Cicero says it is likely that Abby was

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Speaker 3: laying down on her back when her throat was slit.

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Speaker 3: When Abby has found her hands are baled up like

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Speaker 3: fists to her chest and tucked into the sweatshirt she

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Speaker 3: is wearing that belongs to Libby. It is most likely

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Speaker 3: that Abby died where she was attacked.

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Speaker 1: We are alive here at the courthouse in Delphi and

436
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: have just come out of the courtroom. We've all been waiting,

437
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: waiting for that evidence that could clinch the case for

438
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: the state or disprove the state's case, because I've got

439
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: to tell you and a lot of the fact that

440
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: there is no DNA linking the defendant, Richard Allen, to

441
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 1: the crime scene. If all the state was relying on

442
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: was a bullet that was cycle through, not shot down,

443
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: the barrel of a gun, which of course leaves a

444
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: fingerprint marking that links one bullet to one particular gun.

445
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: Without that, we had to hear the confessions, and in

446
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: those confessions there had to be something that only the

447
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 1: killer would know. And that just happened because I'm telling you,

448
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: with no DNA, no eyewitness, and just the bullet found there.

449
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: Some of the jurors could not accept the science behind

450
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: specific indentations and markings on a bullet that was never fired.

451
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: Some may reject that, just like jurors at one time

452
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: didn't believe DNA or fingerprints. Yes, it happens. So we

453
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: were waiting and waiting, and we just heard from the

454
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: witness stand a psychologist that spent practically every day behind bars,

455
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: with Richard Allen joining me in investigative reporter Susan Hendrix,

456
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: who actually wrote the book Down the Hill, My Descent

457
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan, I want to

458
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: refer you to the one of the many confessions he gave,

459
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: and he states that he had a gun. He states

460
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: that he pointed the gun. He describes exactly what happens.

461
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: He admits he was at the bridge at the time

462
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: the murders occurred in that time period, wearing the same

463
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: clothes as the bridge guy. Now, could you explain when

464
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: he tells the jury that he had a gun and

465
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: that he then covered the girl's bodies with branches, that

466
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: information was not out there, that had not been released.

467
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 1: Only the killer would have known all that absolutely.

468
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 5: And there goes the spin Nancy.

469
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 4: The defense trying to say the oldness theory and that

470
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 4: sticks at the site happened to be put in a

471
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 4: specific order.

472
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 5: Near Atby's head, and that it meant something. Now we

473
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 5: learned why he did.

474
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 4: Growing sticks on as the prosecution thought, and now we're

475
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 4: hearing it from.

476
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 5: His own words.

477
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 4: He followed them on the bridge, ordered them down a hill,

478
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 4: had the gun, and that voice down the hill, down

479
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 4: the hill we've put over and over again, we hear

480
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,679
Speaker 4: it from him finally, and they're absolutely right. In terms

481
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 4: of circumstantial evidence. We couldn't have just the bullet. Now

482
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 4: we have his confessions, and again there goes the oldness

483
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 4: theory that the judge didn't.

484
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: Allow him one of his mini confessions. Now after he

485
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: states on his own Sue Sponte that he had molested

486
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: as sister and that's where he thought his quote problems

487
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: started somehow, almost blaming his sister. He then finds religion

488
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: behind bars. He demands Bibles, which he gets. He wants

489
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: more Bibles, he wants to share his Bible. He sleeps

490
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: with his Bible, and during his religious phase, he confesses.

491
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: He says he wants to apologize to the victim's family,

492
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: and he wants closure by signing his confession. What about it,

493
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix.

494
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: Giving the family a bible too. I looked over, I

495
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 4: saw eyes rolling. I'd like to give this bible to

496
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 4: having with these families. Look, they don't want it. They

497
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 4: want their girls back, and you took their lives away

498
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 4: at just age thirteen and fourteen years old. It's despicable

499
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 4: and I'm glad that the jurors are hearing.

500
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: He actually said he regretted what he did and the

501
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: fact that he was asking for closure by signing the confession. Guys,

502
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: in addition to Jeffrey Gentry, Cheryl McCollum, Philip with Dubey,

503
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix joining me right now is a renowned medical examiner.

504
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: He is the author of American Narcan, and he has

505
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: devoted his life to helping others, specifically in bringing peace

506
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: and closure on causes of death. Doctor William Moroney, my

507
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: longtime colleague and friend, Doctor Moroney, I want to talk

508
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: to you about some very odd cuts to one to

509
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: the girl's next and Susan Hendrick to jump in because

510
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: I believe you heard the testimony as well. The throat slashings.

511
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney, were not completely across the neck. In at

512
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: least one of the victims, there were multiple four to

513
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: five vertical cuts on their necks, and the medical examiner

514
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: is going to be tested the medical examiner's report as

515
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: to whether the cuts were done with a box cutter

516
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: as opposed to say, a butcher knife. And also, I

517
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: want your opinion on the blood evidence we're hearing about

518
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: and those vertical cuts, because you don't normally here of

519
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: someone's throat getting slashed with vertical cuts. What does all

520
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: of this mean to you, doctor Moroney.

521
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 12: It's interesting to say that there's vertical and there's horizontal,

522
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 12: because what you have to ask is which happened first.

523
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 12: That's a big part of this. I want to bring

524
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 12: in a prop and show you a neck. This is

525
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 12: how we demonstrate this the neck. When you look at vertical,

526
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 12: those were probably done first because anything going horizontal would

527
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 12: have ended life instantly and the loss of blood pressure

528
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 12: would have caused a complete collapse and the body would

529
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 12: have gone down. Now, the reason why the vertical is

530
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 12: important this is a box cutter is you don't have

531
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 12: a big long blade. You have to go in this

532
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 12: way and down. Now, the vertical cuts come first because

533
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 12: somebody's reaching out cut. The final cut would have been

534
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 12: if there was somebody against a tree or on the ground,

535
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 12: and it would have come this way. The order tells

536
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 12: you that the victim did not die instantly, and that's

537
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 12: what you get with the transfer of blood. When a

538
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 12: victim tries to close a wound, they're pushing left or

539
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 12: right together, but it's really hard. If you get that

540
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 12: first cut this way, you lose posture, you lose blood pressure,

541
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 12: and it's almost impossible to stop. So the order of

542
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 12: the cuts are important.

543
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 13: And if we go back to the consistency of the

544
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 13: diluted blood with tears, if they do the analysis right,

545
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 13: tears contain lipids, proteins, antibodies, and stress hormones that in

546
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 13: those samples that dry are going to show you.

547
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 12: That it wasn't rain and it wasn't moisture. So the order,

548
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 12: the timing of how the cuts can be determined. That

549
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 12: anything that's vertical really makes a lot more sense, as

550
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 12: that's how it started. Plus, if somebody comes after you

551
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 12: with a box knife and you lean back, you're losing

552
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 12: contact coming this way, and that's how the person didn't

553
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 12: die right away. And the victim probably suffered much more

554
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 12: because those verticals, especially if they were trying to defend themselves,

555
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 12: were the first cuts, and the horizontal cut was batal.

556
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are live at the

557
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: Delphi Courthouse and have just come out of the court

558
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: room after riveting testimony by a psychologists. Have spent day

559
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: upon day upon day with Richard Allen. Before I go

560
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: to the other panelists, let me go back to Susan Hendrix,

561
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: joining us, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill,

562
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: My descent into the double murder in Delphi. So many confessions,

563
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: I just I don't what else will it take. Susan Hendrix,

564
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: He's given over sixty confessions. He's remorseful, he got tearful

565
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: in son of them, and one of them. He says,

566
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back and change what he did.

567
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: He took comfort in religion. He says, over and over,

568
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: I killed Abby and Libby. My wife won't believe me.

569
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: I want closure by signing my confession. But what I'm

570
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: looking for is specific detail, because a confession that is

571
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: rich in detail, or statement rich in detail, is more believable.

572
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: He explains he wanted to rape the girls, but then

573
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: did not. He goes on to describe putting branches over them,

574
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: says he had a gun. He goes on with information,

575
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: for instance, that he saw a man and that cut

576
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: into what he wanted to do. The psychologist said he

577
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: appeared relieved after he gave the confession. She also said

578
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: that she believed he was feigning, feigning in order to

579
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: manipulate people. The odd behavior such as drinking toilet water,

580
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: behavior with his own feces. None of that happened till

581
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: he confessed to his wife, and she called the lawyer,

582
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: and the lawyer met with him. So what are the

583
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: other details that he revealed in his confessions to the psychologist?

584
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix today?

585
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 5: Was it, Nancy?

586
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 4: We heard it together, telling that step by step of

587
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: what he did. He admits to you following the girls

588
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 4: on the bridge, having a gun, ordering them down the

589
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 4: hill being interrupted, as you said, that could either be

590
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 4: the owner of the private property down the hill, who

591
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 4: was a white van and there's a roadway here the

592
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 4: white ban or was it Libby's father who was supposed

593
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 4: to pick them up? Derek and says that he called

594
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 4: for the girls. Is that what interrupted them? But giving

595
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 4: a detail by detail account of what he did and

596
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 4: write his wife hanging up, calling the attorneys, and that

597
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 4: is where the defense is going to go, saying he

598
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 4: was in.

599
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 5: A maximum security pridge.

600
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 4: He should have been there, wasn't convicted and that place

601
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 4: drove him to this psychosis, but again confessing over and over,

602
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: saying he wanted to start four three.

603
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: He never complained about his treatment to the psychologists, even

604
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: when remember they kept asking a court, what did he

605
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,800
Speaker 1: list as his complaints? He never complained about his treatment.

606
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Susan Hendrix that in his confession

607
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: to the psychologist he said he had a gun. Nobody

608
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: knew that for the longest time. Remember we were speculating

609
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: about the cod cause of death. No one knew there

610
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: was a gun except the killer. And here he is

611
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: telling all to the psychologist.

612
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 4: Absolutely and law enforcement was criticized Nancy four years for

613
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 4: not telling us or giving us more information. What is

614
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 4: because they did have that pullet that they said there

615
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 4: was a gun.

616
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 5: He mixed to the gun.

617
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: Now we have a thing of evil words that we wanted.

618
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 5: To hear from the killer. I believe he is the killer.

619
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 5: I believe this is what everyone need wanted to hear.

620
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 5: And as you know, it's so whitney outside of the courthouse.

621
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 5: I know you're feeling it too well. We were inside.

622
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 4: If everyone was listening very closely to what this doctor

623
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: got to say, why because she was speaking for Richard

624
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 4: Allen what he said to her, even claiming, remember this

625
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: Nancy a sex addiction.

626
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: We are lying in the Delphi courthouse bringing you the

627
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: latest testimony pouring from the witness stand Susan Hendrix. I

628
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: just want to go over another thing I heard in

629
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I heard in one of the confessions Alan gave.

630
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: He said I made sure they were dead because I

631
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: didn't want them to and then it faded out. I

632
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 1: couldn't hear what the witness was saying. I didn't want

633
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: them to. What tell anybody? I made sure they were

634
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: dead because I didn't want them to what suffer?

635
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 5: He didn't want them to suffer?

636
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: Oh, how kind of him? He also said the string

637
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: also said he did not indicate anyone helped him. He

638
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: again reiterates this was all about sex and that he

639
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: thought the girls could have been as young as eleven. Okay.

640
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: He then points out other people he saw in the vicinity.

641
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: They're all children. He's staking out the bridge looking at children.

642
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: He saw three other people, he says, joining me right

643
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: now is doctor Mark Mirabello. He is the author of

644
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: the odin Brotherhood at Markmirabello dot com oric thank you

645
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: for being with us. We heard that the defendant revealed

646
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: he laid branches across the girl's body. That happens all

647
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: the time when murders occur outdoors. The killer, for whatever

648
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: psychological reason, tries to cover up their body with branches

649
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: or leaves. What could that possibly have to do with Odinism?

650
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 14: Mark, You can have a ritual without sacker, but you

651
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 14: cannot have sacrifice without ritual. And to just lay a

652
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 14: few branches on someone and to carve some kind of

653
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 14: symbol on a tree, this does not qualify as a

654
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 14: ritual sacrifice. Ritual sacrifices are really elaborate and can take

655
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 14: a great period of time. So, now, regarding how various

656
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 14: defense witnesses have claimed that they see significance in the

657
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 14: way the crime scene was arranged, that reminds me of

658
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 14: how some people can see messages in alphabet soup. There

659
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 14: really isn't one there, but they see it.

660
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: With the letters Okay, now wait, hold on just a moment,

661
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,360
Speaker 1: doctor Martin Mirabello. I'm starting to understand what you are

662
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 1: talking about when you say people reading messages in their

663
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: alphabet soup, because that's spinning way out there. Putting branches

664
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 1: over two bodies, in my mind, is not equal ODESSM.

665
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: But that is what the defense is going to try

666
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: and argue. Guys. Doctor Mirabello is the author of the

667
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: O Brotherhood. Cheryl McCollum and Susan Hendrix, I want to

668
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: talk to you very quickly before you have to go

669
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: back into the courtroom about the audio portion of the bridge, guy,

670
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that when the full portion

671
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: of the audio is played we hear a lot more.

672
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: There is mention of a gun. Only the killer and

673
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: the two girls would have known that. What else did

674
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: you hear on the audio, Susan Hendricks?

675
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 4: Initially I thought they sound so young, and that was

676
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 4: heart wretching, of course, hearing the girl's voices. But you

677
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 4: did hear Abby say, hey, don't leave me up here,

678
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 4: because she was a couple steps back from Libby.

679
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 5: Then you hear Libby say we got to go down

680
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 5: this way. Then you hear that's a gun.

681
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 4: Or something to that affected me her a clip and

682
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 4: then you hear guys and hi got.

683
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 5: Scared high and then down the hill. It was hard to.

684
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: Listen to Cheryl McCollum. That has been your assertion since

685
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: day one when this video emerged, that the purp the

686
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 1: bridge guy who happens to be wearing the very same

687
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 1: clothes as a Richard Allen, who places himself at the

688
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: location of the crime scene at the time of the crime.

689
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: All along you said you thought he had a gun

690
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 1: stuffed in his pocket, that that was what he's holding.

691
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 6: Absolutely, and Leggett testified that he, as a police officer,

692
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 6: could hear that gun racking. And you know, I also

693
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 6: think they found another unspent cartridge in his memory box

694
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 6: in his bedroom. Could back, you know, could that be

695
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 6: the one that he picked up, because Nancy, again to

696
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 6: your point, he puts himself there daytime, he's own video.

697
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: You hear that voice.

698
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 6: And some people have already said from the tapes they've

699
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 6: heard it sounds like bridge guy. He parked way away

700
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 6: from the bridge, he had the you know, ejected cartridge

701
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 6: that was unspent that matched his weapon. He stopped on

702
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 6: a warm.

703
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: Day to get a jacket.

704
00:41:58,600 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 6: None of this makes.

705
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: Sense, and let me tell you, this is just day

706
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: one of the beginning of his confessions, and already admitting

707
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: to the branches, the gun, the intent to rape, and

708
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: so much more than only the killer would know. We

709
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: wait as just as unfolds. Thank you for joining us

710
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,479
Speaker 1: here on crime Stories. Out in front of the Deli

711
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: Fi Courthouse as testimony resumes. Goodbye friend.