1 00:00:32,072 --> 00:00:34,772 Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to The Spill, a new weekly show brought 2 00:00:34,792 --> 00:00:36,052 Speaker 1: to you by the team at Drilled. 3 00:00:36,712 --> 00:00:37,692 Speaker 2: I'm Nina Lakhani. 4 00:00:37,852 --> 00:00:41,322 Speaker 1: I'm the global climate justice reporter at Drilled. Ever wonder 5 00:00:41,382 --> 00:00:44,202 Speaker 1: how fossil fuels and climate breakdown infringe on our basic 6 00:00:44,222 --> 00:00:48,601 Speaker 1: human rights? or why some so-called climate solutions could actually 7 00:00:48,642 --> 00:00:51,792 Speaker 1: be doing more harm than good. Well, today's show is 8 00:00:51,832 --> 00:00:54,692 Speaker 1: for you, as I'm delighted to be talking to Alida Morgera, 9 00:00:54,712 --> 00:00:58,852 Speaker 1: the UN Special Rapporteur on Climate Change, about her latest 10 00:00:58,892 --> 00:01:04,551 Speaker 1: report on everyone's favourite false climate solution, carbon markets. on 11 00:01:04,592 --> 00:01:08,052 Speaker 1: what special rapporteurs actually do, and a lot more. You 12 00:01:08,072 --> 00:01:11,851 Speaker 1: can hear The Spill every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts, 13 00:01:11,992 --> 00:01:15,372 Speaker 1: in between drilled narrative seasons. We've got lots of good 14 00:01:15,411 --> 00:01:19,831 Speaker 1: interviews lined up for you in the coming weeks with researchers, journalists, activists, 15 00:01:20,312 --> 00:01:23,491 Speaker 1: and people on the front line of climate breakdown. Here's 16 00:01:23,532 --> 00:01:25,091 Speaker 1: my conversation with Elisa. 17 00:01:29,512 --> 00:01:31,112 Speaker 2: Hello, Elisa. Welcome to The Spill. 18 00:01:32,112 --> 00:01:33,362 Speaker 3: Hi, Nina. Thanks for having me. 19 00:01:34,892 --> 00:01:38,231 Speaker 1: So to give you your full title, you're the special 20 00:01:38,271 --> 00:01:41,392 Speaker 1: rapporteur on the promotion and protection of human rights in 21 00:01:41,432 --> 00:01:44,831 Speaker 1: the context of climate change. So that's all going really 22 00:01:44,872 --> 00:01:47,622 Speaker 1: well for us in the world right now, human rights 23 00:01:47,702 --> 00:01:49,142 Speaker 1: and climate change, right? 24 00:01:50,262 --> 00:01:52,962 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, we have reason to worry, but also we 25 00:01:52,982 --> 00:01:55,502 Speaker 3: can rely on human rights to understand what action we 26 00:01:55,742 --> 00:01:58,352 Speaker 3: should and must prioritise. And we still have a window 27 00:01:58,372 --> 00:02:02,202 Speaker 3: of opportunity to turn things around. Great. 28 00:02:02,342 --> 00:02:04,102 Speaker 1: Well, listen, I wonder if you could just give us 29 00:02:04,142 --> 00:02:07,341 Speaker 1: a little bit of a brief sort of summary about 30 00:02:07,362 --> 00:02:09,362 Speaker 1: the roles of special rapporteurs. 31 00:02:09,822 --> 00:02:12,922 Speaker 3: Yes, we are appointed by the Human Rights Council. So 32 00:02:12,942 --> 00:02:17,022 Speaker 3: there's a whole transparent process. We are pro bono experts 33 00:02:17,282 --> 00:02:21,212 Speaker 3: advising independently, in my case, in the impacts of climate 34 00:02:21,232 --> 00:02:24,072 Speaker 3: change on human rights, but also the impacts of some 35 00:02:24,132 --> 00:02:29,022 Speaker 3: climate measures on human rights. particularly listening to the voices 36 00:02:29,202 --> 00:02:33,202 Speaker 3: of individuals and communities who are most affected by climate 37 00:02:33,262 --> 00:02:37,142 Speaker 3: change in different regions, but also talking to different scientists, 38 00:02:37,382 --> 00:02:41,822 Speaker 3: members of government and parliaments, the judiciary, everyone who can 39 00:02:41,882 --> 00:02:45,982 Speaker 3: provide evidence to help us navigate that landscape and understand 40 00:02:46,402 --> 00:02:50,042 Speaker 3: how human rights are impacted, but equally how human rights 41 00:02:50,122 --> 00:02:53,842 Speaker 3: norms and approaches can lead us to more effective and 42 00:02:53,982 --> 00:02:54,842 Speaker 3: equitable action. 43 00:02:55,972 --> 00:02:59,972 Speaker 1: Your first mandate, you set out on a mission to 44 00:03:00,312 --> 00:03:05,152 Speaker 1: think about defossilisation and looking at the obstacles to a 45 00:03:05,232 --> 00:03:08,372 Speaker 1: real just transition. Just tell me how you came about 46 00:03:08,412 --> 00:03:12,262 Speaker 1: that and why you decided to centre the first three 47 00:03:12,302 --> 00:03:14,622 Speaker 1: years of your mandate on this. 48 00:03:15,502 --> 00:03:18,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's been really an organic process. I didn't 49 00:03:18,382 --> 00:03:22,222 Speaker 3: start with a set agenda. I had several consultations with 50 00:03:22,262 --> 00:03:27,472 Speaker 3: environmental human rights defenders, indigenous experts, children, states in all 51 00:03:27,492 --> 00:03:31,392 Speaker 3: the regions to understand what priorities my mandate should identify. 52 00:03:32,072 --> 00:03:34,892 Speaker 3: And I started that work on de-fossilization because it was 53 00:03:34,972 --> 00:03:37,412 Speaker 3: clear that we were not being able to talk and 54 00:03:37,492 --> 00:03:40,192 Speaker 3: focus action on fossil fuels, even if they are the 55 00:03:40,242 --> 00:03:43,422 Speaker 3: main cause of climate change in the UN climate process 56 00:03:43,562 --> 00:03:48,202 Speaker 3: and increasingly in other international processes, such as the negotiations 57 00:03:48,242 --> 00:03:51,382 Speaker 3: of a new UN Plastics Treaty, for instance. What happened 58 00:03:51,422 --> 00:03:53,382 Speaker 3: is that as I started to do the work with 59 00:03:53,402 --> 00:03:58,042 Speaker 3: the first report, Last year, really focusing on fossil fuels 60 00:03:58,102 --> 00:04:00,992 Speaker 3: in the energy sectors, that's where I realized that actually 61 00:04:01,032 --> 00:04:06,392 Speaker 3: that avoidance of discussing fossil fuels was also hiding how 62 00:04:06,472 --> 00:04:09,892 Speaker 3: there are other economic sectors where we are deepening our 63 00:04:09,972 --> 00:04:13,042 Speaker 3: dependence on fossil fuels. That's particularly the case of our 64 00:04:13,122 --> 00:04:16,551 Speaker 3: food systems on land and in the ocean. And that 65 00:04:16,652 --> 00:04:21,392 Speaker 3: hides a whole series of foreseeable human rights violations that, again, 66 00:04:21,552 --> 00:04:24,332 Speaker 3: are not being discussed and where the vast majority of 67 00:04:24,372 --> 00:04:27,192 Speaker 3: people may not be aware of the choices we're making 68 00:04:27,332 --> 00:04:30,522 Speaker 3: or are made for us, the directions that public funding 69 00:04:30,562 --> 00:04:33,662 Speaker 3: is going, which are harmful to the planet, but also 70 00:04:33,722 --> 00:04:36,862 Speaker 3: very harmful to our own health, whether or not we 71 00:04:36,922 --> 00:04:39,602 Speaker 3: find ourselves at the front lines of climate change. 72 00:04:41,112 --> 00:04:44,671 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this year is the 31st UN Climate 73 00:04:44,712 --> 00:04:48,452 Speaker 1: Negotiations COP. And I think just once in that three 74 00:04:48,492 --> 00:04:52,832 Speaker 1: decades of negotiations, the term fossil fuels has actually appeared 75 00:04:53,212 --> 00:04:56,632 Speaker 1: in the final agreed resolution between all the governments, which, 76 00:04:56,712 --> 00:04:59,872 Speaker 1: as you say, you know, is just wild, given that 77 00:05:00,412 --> 00:05:03,952 Speaker 1: it is fossil fuels that are predominantly driving global heating 78 00:05:03,992 --> 00:05:05,922 Speaker 1: and the climate breakdown that we're experiencing now. 79 00:05:07,142 --> 00:05:09,752 Speaker 3: Yes. And I think maybe what is even more worrying 80 00:05:09,832 --> 00:05:12,572 Speaker 3: is that in the lead up to COP30, there was 81 00:05:12,632 --> 00:05:15,652 Speaker 3: a significant, a vast majority of countries who wanted to 82 00:05:15,712 --> 00:05:19,182 Speaker 3: have an explicit outcome on fossil fuels for a variety 83 00:05:19,222 --> 00:05:22,262 Speaker 3: of reasons, including the climate crisis, but also the protection 84 00:05:22,282 --> 00:05:25,602 Speaker 3: of health. And they were effectively blocked. It was not 85 00:05:25,682 --> 00:05:29,072 Speaker 3: possible to reach the consensus among all parties to the 86 00:05:29,112 --> 00:05:34,202 Speaker 3: international climate regime to have an explicit outcome on fossil fuels. 87 00:05:34,382 --> 00:05:38,002 Speaker 3: And we're seeing that these blocking strategies are being employed 88 00:05:38,162 --> 00:05:42,522 Speaker 3: time and again across UN processes that may have relevance 89 00:05:42,622 --> 00:05:46,412 Speaker 3: to phasing out fossil fuels. Yeah. 90 00:05:46,492 --> 00:05:48,512 Speaker 1: And so let's talk about your latest report, which is 91 00:05:48,572 --> 00:05:52,772 Speaker 1: on carbon markets and carbon credits. So this is a 92 00:05:52,982 --> 00:05:59,162 Speaker 1: solution that has been adopted within the UNFCCC climate process 93 00:05:59,222 --> 00:06:03,322 Speaker 1: as a legitimate mitigation tool, a way to reduce greenhouse 94 00:06:03,362 --> 00:06:08,802 Speaker 1: gases in the atmosphere, which isn't defossilization, it's decarbonization. 95 00:06:08,842 --> 00:06:10,541 Speaker 2: And maybe we can talk a little bit about that. 96 00:06:10,662 --> 00:06:14,942 Speaker 1: The sort of carbon credit projects that people might be 97 00:06:15,002 --> 00:06:20,192 Speaker 1: aware of, of things around forest conservation, methane capture in landfills, 98 00:06:20,732 --> 00:06:26,412 Speaker 1: clean cooking stoves, renewable energy projects. And correct me if 99 00:06:26,472 --> 00:06:30,592 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but for my own work, most of these 100 00:06:31,072 --> 00:06:35,512 Speaker 1: projects are in developing countries, but they've been embraced by, 101 00:06:35,542 --> 00:06:41,752 Speaker 1: you know, States and big corporations, everyone from like fashion houses, 102 00:06:41,872 --> 00:06:45,932 Speaker 1: food conglomerates, airlines, you name it, have taken this sort 103 00:06:45,952 --> 00:06:48,112 Speaker 1: of up with Gusteau and it's sort of been embedded 104 00:06:48,172 --> 00:06:53,152 Speaker 1: into like the climate action process within the UNFCCC for 105 00:06:53,312 --> 00:06:56,612 Speaker 1: two decades now. Give us a little summary, if you can, 106 00:06:56,652 --> 00:07:00,432 Speaker 1: just about this sort of humongous industry that has developed, 107 00:07:00,532 --> 00:07:04,092 Speaker 1: like where it came from and why you decided to 108 00:07:04,132 --> 00:07:06,192 Speaker 1: look at this as sort of one of your main reports. 109 00:07:07,642 --> 00:07:11,472 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a really complex area of international 110 00:07:11,552 --> 00:07:16,112 Speaker 3: climate diplomacy and action. It's quite impenetrable. And there are 111 00:07:16,212 --> 00:07:19,412 Speaker 3: so many hopes around it. You know, the expectations is 112 00:07:19,472 --> 00:07:24,362 Speaker 3: that because phasing out fossil fuels is difficult economically and technically, 113 00:07:24,392 --> 00:07:26,902 Speaker 3: or at least it used to be more difficult technically, 114 00:07:27,382 --> 00:07:30,762 Speaker 3: this will be a way to devise areas of cooperation 115 00:07:30,822 --> 00:07:34,902 Speaker 3: where it will be more cost effective for highly emitting 116 00:07:34,942 --> 00:07:39,312 Speaker 3: countries to decarbonize and And it would lead to more 117 00:07:39,392 --> 00:07:44,142 Speaker 3: resources and technologies being transferred to least responsible countries and 118 00:07:44,182 --> 00:07:49,842 Speaker 3: most affected countries by climate change. Now, this remains the narrative. 119 00:07:50,442 --> 00:07:52,462 Speaker 3: But the truth is, it's very hard to see whether 120 00:07:52,522 --> 00:07:57,282 Speaker 3: this is truly working and working sufficiently to really contribute 121 00:07:57,722 --> 00:08:02,042 Speaker 3: to climate mitigation. and to the channeling of financial resources 122 00:08:02,422 --> 00:08:04,702 Speaker 3: to those who most need them. And I think this 123 00:08:04,742 --> 00:08:07,002 Speaker 3: was the reason for the report, to really try and 124 00:08:07,422 --> 00:08:10,902 Speaker 3: make this area more accessible for everyone to be able 125 00:08:11,002 --> 00:08:13,592 Speaker 3: to have a say, as opposed to being kind of 126 00:08:13,632 --> 00:08:17,632 Speaker 3: left out of that conversation, particularly at a time when, well, 127 00:08:17,652 --> 00:08:20,592 Speaker 3: not only the climate crisis is worsening, not only we 128 00:08:20,652 --> 00:08:25,652 Speaker 3: have three advisory opinions of international tribunals clarifying that states 129 00:08:25,692 --> 00:08:29,492 Speaker 3: have stringent due diligence to make their best decisions their 130 00:08:29,572 --> 00:08:34,112 Speaker 3: most effective action to mitigate climate change, but also at 131 00:08:34,212 --> 00:08:36,492 Speaker 3: a time when we hear that there is not as 132 00:08:36,612 --> 00:08:39,612 Speaker 3: much public funding going into climate change. And in fact, 133 00:08:39,631 --> 00:08:45,411 Speaker 3: we're diverting funding into other areas, including militarization, which we 134 00:08:45,452 --> 00:08:49,102 Speaker 3: know is harmful to the climate. So really understanding whether 135 00:08:49,161 --> 00:08:51,582 Speaker 3: or not this is a tool that lives up to 136 00:08:51,602 --> 00:08:54,462 Speaker 3: the expectations has become a matter of urgency. 137 00:08:55,771 --> 00:08:59,552 Speaker 1: So you found that the underlying logic of the carbon 138 00:08:59,582 --> 00:09:05,161 Speaker 1: markets actually perpetuates greenwashing and fraud and carbon credits could 139 00:09:05,202 --> 00:09:08,062 Speaker 1: keep us hooked on fossil fuels. Tell us a bit 140 00:09:08,102 --> 00:09:09,602 Speaker 1: more about both of those findings. 141 00:09:10,622 --> 00:09:13,131 Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is a really interesting research that has 142 00:09:13,192 --> 00:09:15,811 Speaker 3: come out from many experts in this area who have 143 00:09:15,852 --> 00:09:20,051 Speaker 3: realised that what we thought were adjustments that could be 144 00:09:20,092 --> 00:09:23,361 Speaker 3: made incrementally to make sure that this process tool could 145 00:09:23,421 --> 00:09:27,692 Speaker 3: work according to its expected outcomes, that the very market 146 00:09:27,752 --> 00:09:33,622 Speaker 3: logic is actually incentivizing low quality and low price credits. 147 00:09:34,252 --> 00:09:37,651 Speaker 3: And this is a problem in itself. There's no fixing this. 148 00:09:38,151 --> 00:09:40,821 Speaker 3: And this is then needs to be related to like 149 00:09:40,901 --> 00:09:45,761 Speaker 3: growing evidence of greenwashing and fraud that has been documented. 150 00:09:46,222 --> 00:09:48,141 Speaker 3: But the other point is also that now we have 151 00:09:48,222 --> 00:09:52,582 Speaker 3: significant evidence of a pattern of human rights violations in 152 00:09:52,622 --> 00:09:57,011 Speaker 3: many of these projects, particularly in violating the human rights 153 00:09:57,072 --> 00:10:01,381 Speaker 3: of indigenous peoples, of peasants and small scale fishers. linked 154 00:10:01,462 --> 00:10:05,931 Speaker 3: with unprecedented land accumulation, which has also been driven by 155 00:10:05,992 --> 00:10:11,141 Speaker 3: the search for new opportunities for carbon credit markets. And 156 00:10:11,301 --> 00:10:13,882 Speaker 3: all of that in itself is a source of concern 157 00:10:13,921 --> 00:10:16,922 Speaker 3: for our food security in the context of a worsening 158 00:10:16,942 --> 00:10:20,372 Speaker 3: climate crisis. But it also points to the fact that, again, 159 00:10:20,401 --> 00:10:24,311 Speaker 3: if these are repeated patterns of violations, there's something that's 160 00:10:24,372 --> 00:10:28,071 Speaker 3: a structural problem with the design, the very idea of 161 00:10:28,151 --> 00:10:31,052 Speaker 3: carbon credit markets. That's not just something that can be 162 00:10:31,131 --> 00:10:34,401 Speaker 3: fixed with better regulation. And this is really the question 163 00:10:34,421 --> 00:10:37,862 Speaker 3: that should be central in any conversation on this topic. 164 00:10:38,482 --> 00:10:40,841 Speaker 3: And what it really kind of brings to the surface 165 00:10:40,862 --> 00:10:44,101 Speaker 3: is that while we need to be, of course, preventing 166 00:10:44,301 --> 00:10:48,682 Speaker 3: any violation of indigenous people's rights and peasants' rights, there's 167 00:10:48,722 --> 00:10:51,341 Speaker 3: also a question about whether everyone's human right to a 168 00:10:51,362 --> 00:10:56,812 Speaker 3: healthy environment is is being undermined by this significant reliance 169 00:10:56,891 --> 00:11:00,011 Speaker 3: on an instrument that's not delivering. And it might be 170 00:11:00,192 --> 00:11:05,411 Speaker 3: intrinsically prone to favouring the economic actors who are driving 171 00:11:05,431 --> 00:11:09,602 Speaker 3: the climate crisis and potentially making profit even from this tool. 172 00:11:10,942 --> 00:11:13,482 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think the times that I've attended 173 00:11:13,502 --> 00:11:16,102 Speaker 1: the climate talks have been Well, one of the things 174 00:11:16,122 --> 00:11:18,531 Speaker 1: that struck me is that, you know, the people who 175 00:11:18,551 --> 00:11:21,712 Speaker 1: are being harmed by the climate crisis or bearing the 176 00:11:21,771 --> 00:11:25,792 Speaker 1: brunt of the climate breakdown already. So indigenous people, peasants, 177 00:11:25,852 --> 00:11:31,082 Speaker 1: people in rural communities, small island nations find it really 178 00:11:31,161 --> 00:11:34,202 Speaker 1: hard in the negotiations to be heard. Right. And not 179 00:11:34,242 --> 00:11:36,591 Speaker 1: just that, not just the impacts on them, but also 180 00:11:36,631 --> 00:11:41,341 Speaker 1: their solutions. Right. And yet the space that's available in 181 00:11:41,381 --> 00:11:44,372 Speaker 1: the corridors of power for those who are talking about 182 00:11:44,391 --> 00:11:47,531 Speaker 1: these financial instruments, because that's basically what they are, right? 183 00:11:47,551 --> 00:11:48,952 Speaker 2: They're sort of like these financial. 184 00:11:48,972 --> 00:11:53,011 Speaker 1: They're about trades, they're about deals, they're about moving, you know, 185 00:11:53,291 --> 00:11:56,672 Speaker 1: carbon from one place to another, literally, right? And so, 186 00:11:57,661 --> 00:12:01,122 Speaker 1: and just, you know, I've never really understood why when 187 00:12:01,702 --> 00:12:06,451 Speaker 1: two decades on, there's really no evidence that, that this 188 00:12:06,492 --> 00:12:10,092 Speaker 1: is an effective climate action that is moving us in 189 00:12:10,122 --> 00:12:15,862 Speaker 1: the right direction. Why states, why the UN, FCCC, continue 190 00:12:15,901 --> 00:12:19,102 Speaker 1: to give it this central role? Why do you think 191 00:12:19,141 --> 00:12:22,562 Speaker 1: that we continue to go down this sort of road 192 00:12:22,602 --> 00:12:23,202 Speaker 1: to nowhere? 193 00:12:23,222 --> 00:12:26,752 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's two sides to that situation. On 194 00:12:26,781 --> 00:12:30,732 Speaker 3: the one hand, I think there's a whole generation of 195 00:12:30,832 --> 00:12:35,271 Speaker 3: climate law and climate science experts who think that, well, 196 00:12:35,332 --> 00:12:37,732 Speaker 3: it's 20 years that we're trying to make this work. 197 00:12:38,092 --> 00:12:40,391 Speaker 3: And so we're getting closer to a point where we 198 00:12:40,431 --> 00:12:43,622 Speaker 3: will be able to fix it in order to respond 199 00:12:43,661 --> 00:12:47,061 Speaker 3: to all these shortcomings. And I think, you know, they 200 00:12:47,202 --> 00:12:49,942 Speaker 3: are doing this in good faith and they're very aware 201 00:12:50,002 --> 00:12:54,261 Speaker 3: of the politics, the backlash against climate action and really 202 00:12:54,322 --> 00:12:56,682 Speaker 3: thinking we need this as something that can be more 203 00:12:57,061 --> 00:13:01,212 Speaker 3: palatable to decision makers and maybe economic actors, you know, 204 00:13:01,232 --> 00:13:05,332 Speaker 3: in a very difficult political context. But then there's also 205 00:13:05,391 --> 00:13:08,492 Speaker 3: instead the ones who are benefiting from this and who 206 00:13:08,511 --> 00:13:11,071 Speaker 3: are hiding in plain sight. The fact that the vast 207 00:13:11,131 --> 00:13:16,601 Speaker 3: majority of fossil fuel producers and car manufacturers are involved 208 00:13:16,761 --> 00:13:19,581 Speaker 3: in carbon credit markets should already make us feel, make 209 00:13:19,641 --> 00:13:22,841 Speaker 3: us think that there is something worrying about this. This 210 00:13:22,942 --> 00:13:25,801 Speaker 3: is at the very least not really leading to the 211 00:13:25,901 --> 00:13:29,092 Speaker 3: transformative change in our economies that we need to move 212 00:13:29,151 --> 00:13:32,372 Speaker 3: away from a fossil fuel based economy that will keep 213 00:13:32,472 --> 00:13:35,911 Speaker 3: us in a climate crisis. So there is that kind 214 00:13:35,952 --> 00:13:39,482 Speaker 3: of distinction among the different people who are involved in this. 215 00:13:39,781 --> 00:13:41,742 Speaker 3: But then I think the other problem, as you say, 216 00:13:41,781 --> 00:13:44,322 Speaker 3: is that there hasn't really been a dialogue between the 217 00:13:44,482 --> 00:13:48,901 Speaker 3: experts who have that very detailed understanding of this very 218 00:13:48,962 --> 00:13:53,661 Speaker 3: complex tool and others coming in from a perspective of 219 00:13:53,962 --> 00:13:57,601 Speaker 3: lived experiences, of how this not only is negatively impacting 220 00:13:58,061 --> 00:14:00,942 Speaker 3: on the rights of those who are most affected by 221 00:14:00,982 --> 00:14:06,082 Speaker 3: the climate crisis, But it's also, for instance, undermining indigenous-led 222 00:14:06,141 --> 00:14:10,511 Speaker 3: or peasants-led food systems who are the most climate resilient, 223 00:14:10,531 --> 00:14:13,391 Speaker 3: who are also helping us see what a food system 224 00:14:13,431 --> 00:14:17,872 Speaker 3: that's not so reliant on fossil fuels looks like. And 225 00:14:17,891 --> 00:14:20,331 Speaker 3: so that is the paradox. I think it's a paradox 226 00:14:20,552 --> 00:14:24,071 Speaker 3: of assumptions. What's really important is to find a way 227 00:14:24,172 --> 00:14:27,732 Speaker 3: to open up the space for dialogue. Otherwise, we'll be 228 00:14:27,772 --> 00:14:30,432 Speaker 3: stuck in a reality where this will continue to be 229 00:14:30,912 --> 00:14:34,502 Speaker 3: such an important part and, you know, sucking so many resources, 230 00:14:35,061 --> 00:14:38,121 Speaker 3: while more and more the research is indicating that it 231 00:14:38,142 --> 00:14:41,102 Speaker 3: will not be fixed or not be fixed enough to 232 00:14:41,162 --> 00:14:44,742 Speaker 3: really protect us from worsening climate change. And the voices 233 00:14:44,802 --> 00:14:47,882 Speaker 3: of those who can contribute to that conversation are being 234 00:14:47,922 --> 00:14:53,152 Speaker 3: left behind or worse, being seen as counterproductive or even, 235 00:14:53,172 --> 00:14:56,272 Speaker 3: you know, seen as against climate action. 236 00:14:57,672 --> 00:14:59,471 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, I see 237 00:14:59,492 --> 00:15:01,232 Speaker 1: that all the time in the work that I've done. 238 00:15:01,252 --> 00:15:04,822 Speaker 1: You know, we see time and time again that carbon 239 00:15:04,842 --> 00:15:08,682 Speaker 1: credit projects, for example, a reforestation project may be in 240 00:15:08,842 --> 00:15:13,262 Speaker 1: the Amazon, right, or a project working with pastoralists. In 241 00:15:13,382 --> 00:15:19,221 Speaker 1: East Africa, right, and when community members say or describe 242 00:15:19,602 --> 00:15:22,562 Speaker 1: the impact this has on their traditional way of life, 243 00:15:23,102 --> 00:15:26,242 Speaker 1: which has been sustainable, which has been a force for 244 00:15:26,282 --> 00:15:29,992 Speaker 1: good regarding the health of the planet, and suddenly they're 245 00:15:30,002 --> 00:15:32,431 Speaker 1: locked out of that. and it's sort of taken over 246 00:15:32,492 --> 00:15:35,502 Speaker 1: by this industry, it's so hard for them to be heard. 247 00:15:35,552 --> 00:15:38,402 Speaker 1: It's so hard for those projects to actually, to either 248 00:15:38,422 --> 00:15:41,861 Speaker 1: be closed down or to be reformed radically. To me, 249 00:15:41,902 --> 00:15:44,162 Speaker 1: it seems that that is sort of an indication really 250 00:15:44,262 --> 00:15:47,302 Speaker 1: of like this, you know, this imbalance of power that 251 00:15:47,382 --> 00:15:52,392 Speaker 1: exists not only in the causes of climate change, but 252 00:15:52,472 --> 00:15:56,112 Speaker 1: also in the solutions, right? This isn't just a so-called 253 00:15:56,152 --> 00:16:00,062 Speaker 1: solution that could be delaying you know, real climate action or, 254 00:16:00,102 --> 00:16:03,322 Speaker 1: you know, the transition away from fossil fuels. But it actually, 255 00:16:03,602 --> 00:16:08,262 Speaker 1: in many cases, in many places, is causing harm to people, right? 256 00:16:08,322 --> 00:16:11,101 Speaker 1: People who have come to communities that have contributed least 257 00:16:11,142 --> 00:16:14,422 Speaker 1: to climate change, but are now actually bearing the brunt 258 00:16:14,492 --> 00:16:17,212 Speaker 1: of it and now are being harmed by the solutions that, 259 00:16:17,512 --> 00:16:20,472 Speaker 1: you know, that are being touted within the sort of 260 00:16:20,512 --> 00:16:22,272 Speaker 1: international climate diplomacy world. 261 00:16:26,242 --> 00:16:31,012 Speaker 3: Yes, the very conception of climate action and the international 262 00:16:31,072 --> 00:16:33,492 Speaker 3: climate regime is built on what we're now calling the 263 00:16:33,532 --> 00:16:36,571 Speaker 3: kind of the carbon tunnel vision. So even the idea that, 264 00:16:36,632 --> 00:16:40,502 Speaker 3: you know, we can trade carbon credits because one, you know, 265 00:16:40,622 --> 00:16:43,762 Speaker 3: a carbon emission is in the Amazon is equivalent to 266 00:16:43,942 --> 00:16:47,382 Speaker 3: a carbon emission somewhere else, it actually doesn't make sense 267 00:16:47,422 --> 00:16:51,262 Speaker 3: from a scientific perspective. Those emissions are not equivalent. And 268 00:16:51,302 --> 00:16:54,362 Speaker 3: this is because in addition to looking at emissions, we 269 00:16:54,402 --> 00:16:57,262 Speaker 3: really need to look at the climate system as part 270 00:16:57,332 --> 00:17:00,672 Speaker 3: of all life-supporting systems of the planet. And this is 271 00:17:00,712 --> 00:17:03,152 Speaker 3: why all the three advisory opinions have been clear. The 272 00:17:03,212 --> 00:17:07,012 Speaker 3: climate is part of a healthy environment. It's part of nature. 273 00:17:07,392 --> 00:17:10,692 Speaker 3: It's part of the ocean. It's part of land and 274 00:17:10,772 --> 00:17:17,032 Speaker 3: soil health. So we can't isolate and identify these abstractions 275 00:17:17,732 --> 00:17:21,412 Speaker 3: that might make sense in this economic model, but do 276 00:17:21,492 --> 00:17:25,642 Speaker 3: not match and increasingly are more and more mismatched with 277 00:17:25,722 --> 00:17:29,542 Speaker 3: our best available science and then see that they are 278 00:17:29,601 --> 00:17:32,482 Speaker 3: not adding up. And in fact, when we have human 279 00:17:32,522 --> 00:17:35,922 Speaker 3: rights violations, I think this really shows also how our 280 00:17:36,022 --> 00:17:39,762 Speaker 3: own human wellbeing is interlinked with the effective protection of 281 00:17:39,782 --> 00:17:43,772 Speaker 3: the environment. And the two things are interlinked. And eventually, 282 00:17:43,792 --> 00:17:46,081 Speaker 3: you know, what it does, and what you were saying, 283 00:17:46,212 --> 00:17:49,081 Speaker 3: even a delay at this stage of the climate crisis 284 00:17:49,601 --> 00:17:53,441 Speaker 3: is unacceptable, particularly now that we're all seeing the crossing 285 00:17:53,482 --> 00:17:58,222 Speaker 3: of the 1.5. No delay can be accepted. And on 286 00:17:58,282 --> 00:18:00,702 Speaker 3: top of this, we have evidence in some cases those 287 00:18:00,762 --> 00:18:04,482 Speaker 3: projects actually lead to more emissions. And this in itself 288 00:18:04,611 --> 00:18:07,032 Speaker 3: leads to more violation of human rights. 289 00:18:27,692 --> 00:18:30,352 Speaker 1: You've mentioned advisory opinions a couple of times. So these 290 00:18:30,412 --> 00:18:34,931 Speaker 1: are the advisory opinions by international courts. The latest of 291 00:18:34,972 --> 00:18:37,591 Speaker 1: those was released last year in July by the International 292 00:18:37,632 --> 00:18:40,492 Speaker 1: Court of Justice. And I just wondered if you could 293 00:18:40,512 --> 00:18:45,831 Speaker 1: briefly tell us, you know, what were the obligations and 294 00:18:45,851 --> 00:18:49,532 Speaker 1: the duties that were set out in the ICJ advisory opinion, 295 00:18:49,552 --> 00:18:52,862 Speaker 1: which is, you know, a historic landmark opinion. I guess 296 00:18:52,892 --> 00:18:56,622 Speaker 1: what we should understand when we think about states that 297 00:18:56,682 --> 00:19:01,052 Speaker 1: are now relying on carbon markets is, as part of 298 00:19:01,111 --> 00:19:02,852 Speaker 1: their climate mitigation action. 299 00:19:03,232 --> 00:19:05,312 Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is the whole point of the report, 300 00:19:05,331 --> 00:19:08,891 Speaker 3: to really apply the understanding arising from the advisory opinion 301 00:19:08,932 --> 00:19:11,732 Speaker 3: of the ICJ to carbon markets to say, well, if 302 00:19:11,952 --> 00:19:15,191 Speaker 3: so far we have understood this tool in certain terms, 303 00:19:15,361 --> 00:19:18,542 Speaker 3: now we need to apply those other terms and really 304 00:19:18,621 --> 00:19:22,102 Speaker 3: see whether this holds up. And the key findings from 305 00:19:22,142 --> 00:19:27,121 Speaker 3: the ICJ were that all states must put in place 306 00:19:27,502 --> 00:19:32,342 Speaker 3: all their available means to prevent further significant harm to 307 00:19:32,382 --> 00:19:35,881 Speaker 3: the climate system, understood as part of the environment and 308 00:19:35,942 --> 00:19:39,972 Speaker 3: therefore part of the ocean, of nature and soil, for instance, 309 00:19:40,552 --> 00:19:44,272 Speaker 3: and as part of also protection of human rights. That 310 00:19:44,351 --> 00:19:47,732 Speaker 3: obligation must be in line with our best available science 311 00:19:48,392 --> 00:19:51,951 Speaker 3: and must be an obligation that keeps increasing, that is 312 00:19:52,032 --> 00:19:56,232 Speaker 3: aligned with each state's highest possible ambition. And that's not 313 00:19:56,292 --> 00:19:58,811 Speaker 3: just an aspiration that is in itself part of a 314 00:19:58,851 --> 00:20:02,502 Speaker 3: legally binding obligation. So again, for the countries who have 315 00:20:02,542 --> 00:20:06,341 Speaker 3: been historically most responsible for climate change, who also have 316 00:20:06,422 --> 00:20:11,292 Speaker 3: most financial and technological resources, that bar is really high 317 00:20:11,371 --> 00:20:14,891 Speaker 3: to justify whether to use, say, carbon credits with all 318 00:20:14,932 --> 00:20:18,772 Speaker 3: the faults that are still questioning their effectiveness, as opposed 319 00:20:18,811 --> 00:20:21,901 Speaker 3: to other action that we know would be effective. And 320 00:20:21,942 --> 00:20:24,942 Speaker 3: that's really the phasing out of fossil fuels at home 321 00:20:25,422 --> 00:20:28,962 Speaker 3: and abroad. The other point of the advisory opinion is 322 00:20:29,222 --> 00:20:33,331 Speaker 3: how international cooperation needs to be reflective of the highest 323 00:20:33,412 --> 00:20:37,292 Speaker 3: level of ambition of developing countries, and particularly the countries 324 00:20:37,311 --> 00:20:40,892 Speaker 3: who have been least responsible for climate change and most 325 00:20:40,972 --> 00:20:44,341 Speaker 3: affected by it. And so, again, offering a to developing 326 00:20:44,422 --> 00:20:49,002 Speaker 3: countries carbon credits as opposed to direct finance for their 327 00:20:49,262 --> 00:20:53,552 Speaker 3: chosen approaches to climate mitigation and adaptation must be also 328 00:20:53,611 --> 00:20:54,952 Speaker 3: questioned in that light. 329 00:20:57,351 --> 00:21:00,381 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about how the process of 330 00:21:00,902 --> 00:21:02,821 Speaker 1: this report and all your reports, like who did you 331 00:21:02,861 --> 00:21:03,422 Speaker 1: talk to? 332 00:21:03,972 --> 00:21:06,152 Speaker 2: Who helped you on this and then, and also what 333 00:21:06,192 --> 00:21:07,162 Speaker 2: happens to this work? 334 00:21:07,202 --> 00:21:11,101 Speaker 1: Like, where do, where do your findings go? You know, um, 335 00:21:11,162 --> 00:21:13,722 Speaker 1: I guess in the UN system, um, to upper government. 336 00:21:13,742 --> 00:21:15,382 Speaker 1: So where, where could this work be helpful? 337 00:21:17,022 --> 00:21:20,022 Speaker 3: There's always an open call for written inputs. So I 338 00:21:20,081 --> 00:21:23,022 Speaker 3: outline the kind of questions I want to investigate in 339 00:21:23,061 --> 00:21:27,111 Speaker 3: the report. I usually receive a significant amount of inputs 340 00:21:27,182 --> 00:21:32,172 Speaker 3: around a hundred and that's from states, from research institutions 341 00:21:32,212 --> 00:21:38,262 Speaker 3: and academics. from civil society organizations, and also from organizations 342 00:21:38,302 --> 00:21:41,482 Speaker 3: of individuals and communities who have been affected. 343 00:21:41,142 --> 00:21:41,942 Speaker 2: By climate change. 344 00:21:41,962 --> 00:21:45,321 Speaker 3: So anyone can submit a written input. And then on 345 00:21:45,361 --> 00:21:47,921 Speaker 3: top of that, I do my own research, my own 346 00:21:47,962 --> 00:21:51,382 Speaker 3: independent literature reviews of the science. What I find really 347 00:21:51,422 --> 00:21:54,121 Speaker 3: important is to look not only at climate science, but 348 00:21:54,182 --> 00:21:59,012 Speaker 3: also at the science on biodiversity, on political ecology, on 349 00:21:59,152 --> 00:22:02,232 Speaker 3: human health impacts, and really bring all of that together 350 00:22:02,292 --> 00:22:05,792 Speaker 3: and see how the lived experiences of those who have 351 00:22:05,811 --> 00:22:10,232 Speaker 3: been negatively impacted, in this case by some carbon credits project, 352 00:22:10,772 --> 00:22:13,772 Speaker 3: are aligned with the best available science. So what is 353 00:22:13,831 --> 00:22:18,032 Speaker 3: being felt at the frontline of what we're doing wrong 354 00:22:18,071 --> 00:22:22,372 Speaker 3: with our climate approaches often is also what we're being 355 00:22:22,432 --> 00:22:27,151 Speaker 3: recommended by scientists working from different angles on these issues. 356 00:22:27,621 --> 00:22:30,002 Speaker 3: And this is really important to then show to states, 357 00:22:30,402 --> 00:22:35,902 Speaker 3: both individually and in their international fora, that not listening 358 00:22:35,942 --> 00:22:38,702 Speaker 3: to the voices of those who are most affected also 359 00:22:38,762 --> 00:22:43,012 Speaker 3: means missing out on understanding what the best available science 360 00:22:43,121 --> 00:22:47,752 Speaker 3: means when it's connected across areas of science and when 361 00:22:47,811 --> 00:22:52,522 Speaker 3: it is understood in context. And eventually there are specific 362 00:22:52,581 --> 00:22:56,802 Speaker 3: recommendations that then states should take up in their own lawmaking, 363 00:22:56,861 --> 00:22:59,612 Speaker 3: in their own budgeting and in their own relations with 364 00:22:59,682 --> 00:23:04,871 Speaker 3: one another in terms of international cooperation or negotiations of 365 00:23:05,052 --> 00:23:09,552 Speaker 3: new instruments or the work of international financial institutions. And 366 00:23:09,632 --> 00:23:13,452 Speaker 3: so formally, I'm mandated to report either to the Human 367 00:23:13,472 --> 00:23:16,831 Speaker 3: Rights Council or to the UN General Assembly, which is, 368 00:23:16,882 --> 00:23:20,141 Speaker 3: for instance, where the carbon credits report will be discussed 369 00:23:20,162 --> 00:23:24,302 Speaker 3: and But I usually try and have several other conversations. 370 00:23:24,432 --> 00:23:27,782 Speaker 3: I'll be attending the Climate Cup. I'm usually in other 371 00:23:27,922 --> 00:23:31,201 Speaker 3: multilateral fora. I've been invited to the Food and Agriculture 372 00:23:31,242 --> 00:23:35,622 Speaker 3: Organization to discuss with them how, if and how, carbon 373 00:23:35,682 --> 00:23:39,772 Speaker 3: credits can be led by indigenous peoples and peasants and 374 00:23:39,831 --> 00:23:43,332 Speaker 3: can work according to their worldviews. And I think all 375 00:23:43,392 --> 00:23:47,792 Speaker 3: these dialogues count. and can see how the report becomes 376 00:23:47,831 --> 00:23:51,992 Speaker 3: a basis for hopefully a different kind of conversation, more open, 377 00:23:52,091 --> 00:23:55,862 Speaker 3: more inclusive, with the benefit of the evidence that's been 378 00:23:55,882 --> 00:23:59,181 Speaker 3: brought together for states and anyone else who's in power, 379 00:23:59,222 --> 00:24:03,702 Speaker 3: including advisers, to have the right conversation we need. 380 00:24:05,282 --> 00:24:08,382 Speaker 1: I mean, I can imagine you getting pushback on some 381 00:24:08,442 --> 00:24:11,711 Speaker 1: of your work, considering that your focus is really on 382 00:24:11,752 --> 00:24:14,412 Speaker 1: de-fossilisation and not decarbonisation. 383 00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:19,482 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's been also very interesting to see the evolution. 384 00:24:19,542 --> 00:24:22,462 Speaker 3: I think there are still some countries who believe that 385 00:24:23,081 --> 00:24:26,162 Speaker 3: decarbonisation is, you know, what we are on the path 386 00:24:26,202 --> 00:24:29,661 Speaker 3: to do, what's been politically accepted, where we're making progress. 387 00:24:30,081 --> 00:24:33,532 Speaker 3: And so maybe challenging that notion with the idea of 388 00:24:33,591 --> 00:24:38,671 Speaker 3: defacilisation may risk undermining some of the hard-won progress in 389 00:24:38,712 --> 00:24:41,482 Speaker 3: that connection. And I think when I received that kind 390 00:24:41,522 --> 00:24:44,302 Speaker 3: of pushback, the opportunities to clarify and to say, well, 391 00:24:44,321 --> 00:24:47,362 Speaker 3: we need decarbonization, but we have to make sure that 392 00:24:47,382 --> 00:24:50,682 Speaker 3: that's not leading to other ways in which we remain 393 00:24:51,101 --> 00:24:55,122 Speaker 3: dependent and, in fact, continue to expand production and use 394 00:24:55,182 --> 00:24:59,262 Speaker 3: of fossil fuels. And I think things become more comprehensible 395 00:24:59,302 --> 00:25:02,622 Speaker 3: and more acceptable when indeed we go beyond climate science 396 00:25:02,682 --> 00:25:06,802 Speaker 3: and we bring the science on human health, how defacilization 397 00:25:06,861 --> 00:25:10,922 Speaker 3: has been called time and again by the global medical profession, 398 00:25:10,962 --> 00:25:14,532 Speaker 3: by the World Health Organization, on health grounds alone, on 399 00:25:14,611 --> 00:25:17,671 Speaker 3: top of the reasons we have for combating climate change. 400 00:25:18,252 --> 00:25:21,252 Speaker 3: And that becomes, I think, more relatable to people. It 401 00:25:21,292 --> 00:25:25,782 Speaker 3: may become also less politicized and show that... There are 402 00:25:25,861 --> 00:25:29,962 Speaker 3: benefits that cut across areas where all political parties would agree. 403 00:25:30,361 --> 00:25:34,262 Speaker 3: Healthy food, affordable living. It's not something that, you know, 404 00:25:34,361 --> 00:25:38,202 Speaker 3: across the political spectrum we can really object as long 405 00:25:38,242 --> 00:25:40,622 Speaker 3: as we have a very clear understanding of how these 406 00:25:40,662 --> 00:25:41,682 Speaker 3: things are linked together. 407 00:25:41,702 --> 00:25:45,712 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've talked about this before, right? The why matters 408 00:25:45,811 --> 00:25:48,032 Speaker 1: part of it, you know, you know, this sort of 409 00:25:48,091 --> 00:25:51,492 Speaker 1: tunnel vision on CO2 or other sort of, you know, 410 00:25:51,552 --> 00:25:57,311 Speaker 1: very narrow science theories. sort of findings or targets really 411 00:25:57,772 --> 00:26:00,762 Speaker 1: doesn't do justice to sort of why it matters, right? 412 00:26:00,882 --> 00:26:03,802 Speaker 1: And like you said, there is this like mountain of 413 00:26:03,902 --> 00:26:08,382 Speaker 1: evidence on the negative impacts on health at every stage 414 00:26:08,502 --> 00:26:13,112 Speaker 1: of the life cycle, you know, from pregnancy, you know, 415 00:26:13,162 --> 00:26:16,811 Speaker 1: through old age, right? And the impact on education, our 416 00:26:16,851 --> 00:26:19,732 Speaker 1: ability to learn, impact on our food systems, all of 417 00:26:19,792 --> 00:26:23,111 Speaker 1: those things And yet, you know, I think we're coming 418 00:26:23,132 --> 00:26:26,131 Speaker 1: to sort of the climate negotiations world is coming a 419 00:26:26,152 --> 00:26:28,181 Speaker 1: bit late to that. Right. There's been this sort of 420 00:26:28,262 --> 00:26:31,081 Speaker 1: tunnel vision on what's been politically acceptable, like you say, 421 00:26:31,262 --> 00:26:36,012 Speaker 1: on on these very narrow targets, you know, and it 422 00:26:36,052 --> 00:26:38,171 Speaker 1: seems that that's partly why we're in the mess that 423 00:26:38,192 --> 00:26:39,052 Speaker 1: we're in at this point. 424 00:26:39,952 --> 00:26:41,772 Speaker 3: I think, you know, at the start of the regime, 425 00:26:41,831 --> 00:26:44,422 Speaker 3: there was a hope that, you know, maybe this approach, 426 00:26:44,482 --> 00:26:48,202 Speaker 3: very technocratic approach could work. You know, that simplification also 427 00:26:48,242 --> 00:26:50,802 Speaker 3: to make such a global and at the time very 428 00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:54,912 Speaker 3: abstract problem manageable. But I think where we are now, 429 00:26:54,952 --> 00:26:57,211 Speaker 3: we've seen, you know, it has made some progress, but 430 00:26:57,272 --> 00:26:59,652 Speaker 3: not enough. And what we're seeing now is that, of course, 431 00:26:59,712 --> 00:27:04,122 Speaker 3: now climate change has become experienced by everyone on the planet. 432 00:27:04,152 --> 00:27:06,262 Speaker 3: I think after this summer in Europe, I don't think 433 00:27:06,422 --> 00:27:08,841 Speaker 3: anyone is in doubt about what climate change is and 434 00:27:08,922 --> 00:27:11,941 Speaker 3: how much it is present in our lives and how 435 00:27:11,982 --> 00:27:17,471 Speaker 3: it's threatening the very fabric of our day-to-day lives. And 436 00:27:17,512 --> 00:27:20,472 Speaker 3: I think that the limitations of that approach must be 437 00:27:20,611 --> 00:27:24,052 Speaker 3: fully acknowledged and we're not quite there. At the same time, however, 438 00:27:24,331 --> 00:27:27,312 Speaker 3: the science has progressed and I think maybe an area 439 00:27:27,331 --> 00:27:31,101 Speaker 3: of science that's really important is all the science on 440 00:27:31,262 --> 00:27:35,462 Speaker 3: climate disinformation and obstruction. So we have now an understanding 441 00:27:35,942 --> 00:27:39,552 Speaker 3: of how the fossil fuel industry and other industries who 442 00:27:39,571 --> 00:27:44,412 Speaker 3: have vested interest, so the petrochemical companies, the largest food 443 00:27:44,452 --> 00:27:49,732 Speaker 3: and beverage companies whose profits are dependent on continued fossil fuels, 444 00:27:50,772 --> 00:27:57,141 Speaker 3: and big tech increasingly as well, they have taken very specific, well-resourced, 445 00:27:57,321 --> 00:28:01,252 Speaker 3: evolving approaches approaches to keep us away from that understanding 446 00:28:01,311 --> 00:28:05,132 Speaker 3: that not prioritizing the phase out of fossil fuels will 447 00:28:05,192 --> 00:28:08,391 Speaker 3: never really lead us towards a safer climate. And I 448 00:28:08,432 --> 00:28:11,512 Speaker 3: think that understanding and all the evidence that we have 449 00:28:11,591 --> 00:28:15,331 Speaker 3: of what the companies have done, the techniques they have used, 450 00:28:15,371 --> 00:28:20,262 Speaker 3: the extent to which they have influenced unduly with their 451 00:28:20,282 --> 00:28:24,342 Speaker 3: own commercial interest, our democratic processes from local to national 452 00:28:24,402 --> 00:28:27,322 Speaker 3: to international level, All of that, I think, was not 453 00:28:27,361 --> 00:28:31,101 Speaker 3: quite there, but it is now. And we can't take 454 00:28:31,142 --> 00:28:33,202 Speaker 3: that out of the equation. And that's the only way 455 00:28:33,262 --> 00:28:35,482 Speaker 3: for us also to be able to finally jump a 456 00:28:35,522 --> 00:28:38,242 Speaker 3: few steps ahead of the industry and be able to 457 00:28:38,302 --> 00:28:42,592 Speaker 3: take a more proactive and ultimately effective approach to the 458 00:28:42,612 --> 00:28:43,482 Speaker 3: climate crisis. 459 00:28:44,812 --> 00:28:47,392 Speaker 1: I wanted to just ask you about your last report, 460 00:28:47,412 --> 00:28:50,792 Speaker 1: which was on food systems. And I'm going to put 461 00:28:50,932 --> 00:28:53,412 Speaker 1: that report and the latest one in the show notes 462 00:28:53,432 --> 00:28:56,032 Speaker 1: for people to look at further. But just, you know, 463 00:28:56,072 --> 00:28:59,332 Speaker 1: thinking about that work and this carbon markets investigation that 464 00:28:59,372 --> 00:29:02,612 Speaker 1: you did, I mean, what are the common trends or 465 00:29:02,732 --> 00:29:03,832 Speaker 1: themes that you find? 466 00:29:03,892 --> 00:29:05,832 Speaker 2: You've mentioned disinformation, obstruction. 467 00:29:06,452 --> 00:29:08,431 Speaker 1: You know, when you think about the winners and the 468 00:29:08,532 --> 00:29:13,842 Speaker 1: losers and the obstacles and, you know, what are the 469 00:29:13,882 --> 00:29:16,902 Speaker 1: common themes that you found between the food systems work 470 00:29:16,962 --> 00:29:19,122 Speaker 1: and the carbon markets report that you just put out? 471 00:29:20,912 --> 00:29:25,132 Speaker 3: Yeah. And what's interesting is that that understanding actually came 472 00:29:25,232 --> 00:29:28,012 Speaker 3: from separate work that the UN Special Rapporteur on the 473 00:29:28,052 --> 00:29:30,312 Speaker 3: Right to Food, Michael Fakhry, had been doing in the 474 00:29:30,352 --> 00:29:32,442 Speaker 3: last few years. So it's coming from a different area 475 00:29:32,522 --> 00:29:36,542 Speaker 3: of human rights. But he has been documenting how we 476 00:29:36,602 --> 00:29:42,082 Speaker 3: are facing an unprecedented concentration of corporate power in food systems. 477 00:29:42,162 --> 00:29:45,792 Speaker 3: We're facing an unprecedented accumulation of land that we've never 478 00:29:45,892 --> 00:29:49,042 Speaker 3: seen before. And of the 10 top land owners in 479 00:29:49,082 --> 00:29:54,342 Speaker 3: the world, one is a carbon credits entity, another is 480 00:29:54,422 --> 00:29:58,402 Speaker 3: a fossil fuel company. And so what that means is, again, 481 00:29:58,422 --> 00:30:01,162 Speaker 3: that instead of thinking about climate change as a technical 482 00:30:01,242 --> 00:30:05,142 Speaker 3: problem of fixing our energy systems, what the food systems 483 00:30:05,202 --> 00:30:09,122 Speaker 3: are showing us is that it's a problem of unlimited 484 00:30:09,712 --> 00:30:12,372 Speaker 3: corporate power that has been for a very long time 485 00:30:12,492 --> 00:30:18,022 Speaker 3: not sufficiently regulated, has gone unaccounted and unaccountable to all 486 00:30:18,062 --> 00:30:21,062 Speaker 3: the harm that it has caused, which are both environmental harm, 487 00:30:21,142 --> 00:30:24,402 Speaker 3: health harm and human rights harm, and has reached a 488 00:30:24,502 --> 00:30:29,451 Speaker 3: level of power, economic, technological, of actual power over the 489 00:30:29,512 --> 00:30:33,362 Speaker 3: resources that are essential for our survival. that needs to 490 00:30:33,402 --> 00:30:36,442 Speaker 3: be seen as the root cause of all the multiple 491 00:30:36,502 --> 00:30:42,122 Speaker 3: crises we're facing, including economic inequality. But unfortunately, in our conversation, 492 00:30:42,182 --> 00:30:46,182 Speaker 3: we look at the symptoms and the multiple crises separately 493 00:30:46,222 --> 00:30:49,792 Speaker 3: from one another, spreading ourselves very thin, as opposed to 494 00:30:49,872 --> 00:30:54,732 Speaker 3: keep following those identifiable economic actors who are very well 495 00:30:54,772 --> 00:30:59,552 Speaker 3: linked with one another, vertically integrated, making their own profit-making 496 00:30:59,612 --> 00:31:03,332 Speaker 3: plans on the basis of the public subsidies that still 497 00:31:03,612 --> 00:31:08,492 Speaker 3: fossil fuels are receiving, plastic production is receiving, industrialized food 498 00:31:08,532 --> 00:31:13,122 Speaker 3: production is receiving, while harming our climate system to the 499 00:31:13,162 --> 00:31:16,421 Speaker 3: point we are at, while harming our health to the 500 00:31:16,482 --> 00:31:19,902 Speaker 3: point where we have younger and younger people with cancer, 501 00:31:20,582 --> 00:31:26,572 Speaker 3: more non-communicable diseases, fossil fuels across our bodies, in our brains, 502 00:31:26,652 --> 00:31:29,992 Speaker 3: in our reproductive organs, with all the negative impacts you mentioned. 503 00:31:30,472 --> 00:31:33,762 Speaker 3: And all of that is an externalized cost for those 504 00:31:33,802 --> 00:31:37,782 Speaker 3: very same companies who are also in very well documented 505 00:31:38,442 --> 00:31:43,892 Speaker 3: patterns of disinformation, obstruction and undermining of our democratic processes. 506 00:31:44,492 --> 00:31:46,652 Speaker 3: So I think that that's the work that we need 507 00:31:46,672 --> 00:31:49,852 Speaker 3: to do. And we can't ignore that understanding of which 508 00:31:49,992 --> 00:31:53,582 Speaker 3: economic actors are behind and are developing further ways to 509 00:31:54,062 --> 00:31:59,711 Speaker 3: to benefit economically, even from some climate solutions, while protecting 510 00:31:59,972 --> 00:32:02,911 Speaker 3: their fossil fuel based economy that has allowed them to 511 00:32:02,972 --> 00:32:06,602 Speaker 3: flourish at the expenses of the planet and our well-being. 512 00:32:08,002 --> 00:32:11,142 Speaker 1: I mean, these economic elites that you mentioned, I mean, 513 00:32:11,222 --> 00:32:14,662 Speaker 1: in the food system, in the climate solutions world. But, 514 00:32:14,702 --> 00:32:16,852 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I think we'd be remiss not 515 00:32:16,872 --> 00:32:20,782 Speaker 1: to at least mention the rise in data centres and 516 00:32:20,842 --> 00:32:25,241 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence and social media and mainstream media. I mean, 517 00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:28,622 Speaker 1: these are the same power structures, the same economic actors 518 00:32:28,962 --> 00:32:32,462 Speaker 1: that are really dominating every sphere of our life, right? 519 00:32:32,502 --> 00:32:37,181 Speaker 1: From information to what we eat to everything, right? To 520 00:32:37,272 --> 00:32:40,172 Speaker 1: our experience of every experience in life that we're having. 521 00:32:40,252 --> 00:32:43,292 Speaker 1: And like you say, if we continue to think about 522 00:32:43,332 --> 00:32:47,652 Speaker 1: these as sort of isolated industries or areas, We are 523 00:32:47,712 --> 00:32:52,172 Speaker 1: falling down a trap, right? It's about how these things 524 00:32:52,192 --> 00:32:55,022 Speaker 1: are interconnected and that's how we sort of, we need 525 00:32:55,042 --> 00:32:59,961 Speaker 1: to approach things in a systemic, structural way, right? 526 00:33:00,102 --> 00:33:02,182 Speaker 3: But it is difficult, to be fair. You know, every 527 00:33:02,242 --> 00:33:04,982 Speaker 3: report I prepared, it's such a learning curve for me. 528 00:33:05,022 --> 00:33:07,442 Speaker 3: There's so many moments where I think, I can't believe 529 00:33:07,482 --> 00:33:10,942 Speaker 3: I didn't know this. And I think, you know, they're 530 00:33:11,062 --> 00:33:13,201 Speaker 3: so good at hiding in plain sight. You know, the 531 00:33:13,222 --> 00:33:16,522 Speaker 3: fact that we had 60 or more years of climate 532 00:33:16,542 --> 00:33:20,792 Speaker 3: disinformation led by fossil fuel companies, led by the 15 533 00:33:20,792 --> 00:33:25,372 Speaker 3: biggest meat and dairy companies, not even, you know, withdrawing 534 00:33:25,412 --> 00:33:28,712 Speaker 3: from public information, the fact that they're using so many 535 00:33:28,772 --> 00:33:32,282 Speaker 3: toxic substances that are so harmful to us, including, you know, 536 00:33:32,322 --> 00:33:35,902 Speaker 3: forever chemicals, for instance. And they're just one layer of 537 00:33:36,002 --> 00:33:39,352 Speaker 3: harm that somehow they've been allowed to to cost to 538 00:33:39,452 --> 00:33:43,392 Speaker 3: us because of that lack of sufficient regulation and oversight. 539 00:33:43,912 --> 00:33:46,272 Speaker 3: And then the link with big tech is quite complex 540 00:33:46,292 --> 00:33:50,642 Speaker 3: to tease out. We see more and more reliance on 541 00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:54,782 Speaker 3: climate smart approaches, which are all very dependent on digitalization 542 00:33:54,962 --> 00:33:58,181 Speaker 3: and AI. But again, who is thinking about the physical 543 00:33:58,372 --> 00:34:01,972 Speaker 3: impact of those growing data centers, their energy demand, their 544 00:34:02,032 --> 00:34:07,032 Speaker 3: water demand, their own contributions to the fossil fuel-based economy? 545 00:34:07,352 --> 00:34:10,012 Speaker 3: These are all kind of dots that are connected, but 546 00:34:10,052 --> 00:34:13,602 Speaker 3: it's not quite clear to see the overall picture. There's 547 00:34:13,652 --> 00:34:17,741 Speaker 3: also links to the military-industrial complex. And yet this seems, oh, well, 548 00:34:17,762 --> 00:34:21,332 Speaker 3: this is an area that's separate from climate policy or, 549 00:34:21,392 --> 00:34:23,692 Speaker 3: you know, food systems. And yet we see now, we 550 00:34:23,772 --> 00:34:26,361 Speaker 3: see now that they're all interconnected. The crisis of the 551 00:34:26,762 --> 00:34:28,701 Speaker 3: or most straight as a show to us in our 552 00:34:28,782 --> 00:34:31,241 Speaker 3: daily lives, the prices of food have gone up. 553 00:34:31,362 --> 00:34:31,622 Speaker 1: Why? 554 00:34:31,701 --> 00:34:35,802 Speaker 3: Because of fertilizers. What are fertilizers made of? Fossil fuels. 555 00:34:35,842 --> 00:34:38,471 Speaker 3: And why are we all dependent on food systems that 556 00:34:38,572 --> 00:34:41,452 Speaker 3: are so heavy on fertilizers? That is not by chance 557 00:34:41,592 --> 00:34:44,152 Speaker 3: and it's not good for our health. And yet we 558 00:34:44,212 --> 00:34:47,312 Speaker 3: are trapped in this system. and even regions that are 559 00:34:47,352 --> 00:34:49,872 Speaker 3: so far away from the area of conflict, are deeply, 560 00:34:49,931 --> 00:34:55,862 Speaker 3: deeply harmed by those global interconnections, these entanglements, deep entanglements 561 00:34:55,931 --> 00:34:57,602 Speaker 3: in the fossil fuel-based economy. 562 00:34:59,181 --> 00:35:03,281 Speaker 1: I just wanted to finish off by talking about climate diplomacy. 563 00:35:03,741 --> 00:35:07,201 Speaker 1: COP31 is going to be held in Turkey this November. 564 00:35:07,282 --> 00:35:10,042 Speaker 1: It's co-hosted by Turkey and Australia. I don't want to 565 00:35:10,062 --> 00:35:11,892 Speaker 1: talk about COP, actually. I wanted to talk to you 566 00:35:11,951 --> 00:35:16,431 Speaker 1: about the transition away from fossil fuels conference, The first 567 00:35:16,491 --> 00:35:18,181 Speaker 1: one was held in April this year. You and I 568 00:35:18,221 --> 00:35:21,102 Speaker 1: were both there in Santa Marta in Colombia. I think 569 00:35:21,142 --> 00:35:25,002 Speaker 1: we shared some of the highs and lows of that process. 570 00:35:25,982 --> 00:35:28,892 Speaker 1: The second one is hopefully going to be next year 571 00:35:28,911 --> 00:35:31,651 Speaker 1: and it's going to be co-hosted by the Pacific. 572 00:35:31,431 --> 00:35:33,512 Speaker 2: Islands and Ireland. 573 00:35:33,931 --> 00:35:37,832 Speaker 1: And I just wondered, how would you hope that you know, 574 00:35:37,852 --> 00:35:40,912 Speaker 1: the second transition away from fossil fuels conference will build 575 00:35:40,971 --> 00:35:44,151 Speaker 1: on the first. What would you like to see change 576 00:35:44,491 --> 00:35:47,332 Speaker 1: or expand or lose for the next one? 577 00:35:48,411 --> 00:35:51,082 Speaker 3: So I think the first one was very remarkable in 578 00:35:51,122 --> 00:35:54,482 Speaker 3: that so many states engage in a very open, explicit 579 00:35:54,522 --> 00:35:58,242 Speaker 3: conversation about fossil fuels. I still think that the first 580 00:35:58,302 --> 00:36:01,792 Speaker 3: conference was too focused on phasing out fossil fuels from 581 00:36:01,852 --> 00:36:04,542 Speaker 3: the energy sector as opposed to thinking more in terms 582 00:36:04,602 --> 00:36:09,582 Speaker 3: of economy-wide and that attention to petrochemicals and the growing 583 00:36:09,622 --> 00:36:12,411 Speaker 3: demand for fossil fuels in all their forms in our 584 00:36:12,471 --> 00:36:15,931 Speaker 3: food systems. So I'm hoping that having a more holistic 585 00:36:15,951 --> 00:36:22,402 Speaker 3: approach approach to de-fossilization will be framing the second conference. 586 00:36:23,042 --> 00:36:26,762 Speaker 3: I also hope that we'll have more inclusiveness and participation, 587 00:36:26,802 --> 00:36:30,402 Speaker 3: more clarity in the terms of engagement of different experts 588 00:36:30,462 --> 00:36:33,741 Speaker 3: and human rights holders. Certainly Santa Marta was a big 589 00:36:33,802 --> 00:36:36,692 Speaker 3: experiment and, you know, it has been in a way 590 00:36:36,752 --> 00:36:39,872 Speaker 3: very remarkable how it's brought together very quickly after the 591 00:36:39,911 --> 00:36:42,862 Speaker 3: disappointment of of COP 30 and not being able to 592 00:36:42,922 --> 00:36:45,542 Speaker 3: have an outcome on fossil fuels. But now that we 593 00:36:45,582 --> 00:36:47,642 Speaker 3: have a benefit of time, we need to have a 594 00:36:48,392 --> 00:36:53,032 Speaker 3: clearer understanding of how different voices, including from human rights experts, 595 00:36:53,152 --> 00:36:57,892 Speaker 3: that can bring that understanding of the underlying political economies 596 00:36:58,232 --> 00:37:02,071 Speaker 3: of the crisis and potential solutions that are more aligned 597 00:37:02,262 --> 00:37:05,131 Speaker 3: with human rights can come into play. And in fact, 598 00:37:05,172 --> 00:37:08,482 Speaker 3: having an explicit conversation about human rights and about the 599 00:37:08,542 --> 00:37:12,971 Speaker 3: obligations clarified by the ICJ advisory opinion, which was also 600 00:37:13,052 --> 00:37:15,372 Speaker 3: not quite something that we were able to do in 601 00:37:15,411 --> 00:37:18,902 Speaker 3: Santa Marta. That said, maybe if I can take 30 seconds, 602 00:37:18,942 --> 00:37:21,681 Speaker 3: I would still say that while there is kind of 603 00:37:21,721 --> 00:37:26,942 Speaker 3: a disengagement or a lowering of expectations around COP 31, 604 00:37:26,942 --> 00:37:31,042 Speaker 3: we do need to keep those expectations up and hold 605 00:37:31,082 --> 00:37:35,062 Speaker 3: the COP accountable. We need an outcome from the mitigation track, 606 00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:37,321 Speaker 3: which has not been delivering for a long while. There's 607 00:37:37,382 --> 00:37:40,522 Speaker 3: even discussion about closing it down. We can't have an 608 00:37:40,582 --> 00:37:45,442 Speaker 3: international climate regime that is not seriously delivering on mitigation. 609 00:37:45,982 --> 00:37:49,852 Speaker 3: And crucially, we need meaningful decisions under the food systems track, 610 00:37:50,292 --> 00:37:53,182 Speaker 3: particularly because the food systems is not only the second 611 00:37:53,692 --> 00:37:56,772 Speaker 3: cause of climate change, of emissions, but it's also the 612 00:37:56,832 --> 00:37:59,712 Speaker 3: sector that may be driving even more than energy that 613 00:37:59,772 --> 00:38:04,082 Speaker 3: demand for fossil fuels, including for petrochemicals. So we need 614 00:38:04,122 --> 00:38:08,522 Speaker 3: that deliverance or we need otherwise to take account of 615 00:38:08,562 --> 00:38:13,091 Speaker 3: whether there will not be a satisfactory outcome after COP 616 00:38:13,092 --> 00:38:18,111 Speaker 3: 31 and make our own decisions in that light. 617 00:38:20,112 --> 00:38:23,232 Speaker 1: Well, thanks very much, Elisa Morgera, UN Special Rapporteur on 618 00:38:23,292 --> 00:38:26,732 Speaker 1: Climate Change. Thanks for joining us on The Spill. The 619 00:38:26,792 --> 00:38:29,531 Speaker 1: next episode will drop next Friday and you can hear 620 00:38:29,592 --> 00:38:30,732 Speaker 1: it wherever you hear Drilled. 621 00:38:30,991 --> 00:38:31,912 Speaker 2: Thank you and bye. 622 00:38:32,532 --> 00:38:33,241 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. 623 00:38:39,181 --> 00:38:42,701 Speaker 4: The Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast. 624 00:38:42,802 --> 00:38:44,882 Speaker 4: It comes out every Friday when we're not in the 625 00:38:44,922 --> 00:38:48,642 Speaker 4: middle of a narratives season. If you have ideas for 626 00:38:48,741 --> 00:38:51,482 Speaker 4: folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let 627 00:38:51,542 --> 00:38:55,002 Speaker 4: us know. We're at Drilled Media on all social media platforms, 628 00:38:55,402 --> 00:38:59,451 Speaker 4: or you can email me at amy at drilled.media. Links 629 00:38:59,491 --> 00:39:02,252 Speaker 4: to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order my 630 00:39:02,292 --> 00:39:06,072 Speaker 4: book are in the show notes. The Spill is produced 631 00:39:06,232 --> 00:39:09,551 Speaker 4: by Peter Duff. Our theme song is Bird in the 632 00:39:09,592 --> 00:39:14,342 Speaker 4: Hand by Fournone. Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment 633 00:39:14,382 --> 00:39:18,382 Speaker 4: attorney is James Wheaton. of the First Amendment Project. You 634 00:39:18,422 --> 00:39:23,392 Speaker 4: can find transcripts of The Spill online at drilled.media. Like 635 00:39:23,451 --> 00:39:27,931 Speaker 4: the rest of Drilled, The Spill is distributed by Pushkin Industries. 636 00:39:28,532 --> 00:39:32,951 Speaker 4: The team there is Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner, 637 00:39:33,172 --> 00:39:38,772 Speaker 4: Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, and Jake Flanagan. 638 00:39:31,132 --> 00:39:32,772 Speaker 4: Thanks for watching.