Speaker 1: Welcome to I Do Part two the podcast for people
Speaker 1: that maybe didn't find there happily ever after the first
Speaker 1: time around. I'm one of your hosts, Jana Kramer, and
Speaker 1: today I'm joined by one of our favorite celebrity mentors
Speaker 1: here on the podcast, former pro dancer for twenty six
Speaker 1: seasons on Dancing with the Stars. It's my girl, Cheryl Burke.
Speaker 1: Hey girl, Hey, Today we're going to dive into the
Speaker 1: topic of divorce, something we know nothing about. Some celebs
Speaker 1: in the headlines new trends and divorce. We're going to
Speaker 1: bring in Kate Simmons, a divorce attorney with Simmons Law Group.
Speaker 1: She's got a video right now that is popping up
Speaker 1: all over the internet, so let's get her in here
Speaker 1: and do a deep dive on this. Kate, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show. I kind of
Speaker 1: want to start this off and we'll just deep dive
Speaker 1: right into it. So when I saw your video, so
Speaker 1: you've got this video going viral right now on TikTok
Speaker 1: and some other you know streamers, and you basically said, like,
Speaker 1: here are the three people that are most likely not
Speaker 1: going to cheat, right you said, farmers, accountants and pharmacists.
Speaker 1: Is that accurate?
Speaker 2: That's right, That's what's on the video.
Speaker 1: So when I watch it, and maybe this is just
Speaker 1: like my jaded heart from my past relationship, but I'm like,
Speaker 1: a how did you come up with that? But also
Speaker 1: in my mind, I'm like, a dude's gonna cheat no
Speaker 1: matter what they do, right, So it's like and a
Speaker 1: lot of times, you know, my last husband was a
Speaker 1: professional athlete, all right, he's in the terrible category of
Speaker 1: most likely going to cheat. Not saying they all do,
Speaker 1: because now my husband was a professional athlete as well,
Speaker 1: has never cheated, wouldn't dare to freaking cheat? Is the
Speaker 1: most respectful man, never cheated on his X, wouldn't cheat
Speaker 1: on me, whether I mean anything. It's like, so it's
Speaker 1: like to label someone a cheater or not a cheater
Speaker 1: to me is kind of like, how can you even
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 2: In a way, you're so right and you can't really
Speaker 2: do that. I mean, I've done videos that have gone
Speaker 2: viral and let's just get it out of the way.
Speaker 2: The most likely to cheat men, of course, men are
Speaker 2: going to cheat your spot on. I see it every day. Cops, firefighters,
Speaker 2: I mean, divorce lawyers will joke behind the scenes, like
Speaker 2: if you married a cop, that was your first mistake.
Speaker 2: So we talk about people in law enforcement EMTs, firefighters
Speaker 2: most likely one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Of the time, one hundred percent of the time.
Speaker 2: Not one hundred percent of the time. But if someone
Speaker 2: calls and they say, it's you know, the talk of
Speaker 2: the fire station, the talk of the cop shop, I
Speaker 2: mean that we expect. So when those videos got so popular,
Speaker 2: we got all this feedback about who's not cheating, women
Speaker 2: and men who are more or less likely to be
Speaker 2: in the console chair talking about cheating, and so we
Speaker 2: just came up with like ten occupations that we don't
Speaker 2: see that much. Accountants, librarians, we said, teachers long ago,
Speaker 2: and the internet started on fire, like here are all
Speaker 2: these teachers that are cheating. But it is really difficult
Speaker 2: outside of the occupations I mentioned. You know something really
Speaker 2: interesting about cheating that I think is coming to the
Speaker 2: forefront more. And when I talk to women, middle aged women,
Speaker 2: there's let's set aside the young guys that are acting inappropriately,
Speaker 2: but when we see families broken apart by true affairs
Speaker 2: and women come in in their late thirties and forties,
Speaker 2: I want to hear from both of you if you agree,
Speaker 2: if you think this is mainstream information. But I describe
Speaker 2: to these women when men are finding these other lies
Speaker 2: and they're going to another person, it's really easy for
Speaker 2: the wife to say, what did I do wrong? What
Speaker 2: did I do in this relationship to cause this? And
Speaker 2: I think it's becoming more understandable and people are accepting
Speaker 2: the feedback from me more readily that those people, those men,
Speaker 2: let's just stick with the gender bias. Those husbands are
Speaker 2: unhappy with themselves, that it's not something that these women
Speaker 2: are doing or it always takes two when a relationship
Speaker 2: breaks down. But I think it's becoming much more of
Speaker 2: a positive spin in a way for them to move
Speaker 2: forward in their lives for their new beginning, to recognize
Speaker 2: that those men are unhappy with themselves and they're looking
Speaker 2: for something, and they're looking for something that does not
Speaker 2: stem from the fault of the other spouse.
Speaker 1: Cheryl, when you got divorce, was your first thought, did
Speaker 1: you go into why I could because I was in
Speaker 1: this or that?
Speaker 3: I think yeah, And I think it actually stems from
Speaker 3: the way I was raised, right like, I don't think
Speaker 3: it just I think that's a natural we're all human,
Speaker 3: and I think the first thing we do is in
Speaker 3: a way shame ourselves, blame ourselves and definitely try to
Speaker 3: put the pieces together and get answers. But sometimes there's
Speaker 3: just no answers, right, And for the most part, I think,
Speaker 3: naturally my brain went to, Yeah, what did I do wrong?
Speaker 3: Did I not sleep with him enough? Did I you know,
Speaker 3: there's all these questions that I ask myself. Was I
Speaker 3: not there? Emotionally? Was I not? It's just but ultimately
Speaker 3: intellectually I know, of course it has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with me. It has everything to do with that person.
Speaker 3: But naturally, right, and if I wasn't in therapy for
Speaker 3: as long as I've been in therapy, it would have
Speaker 3: really taken a toll on my own self esteem, my confidence,
Speaker 3: just me as a woman in general. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think Kate's your thing too, I mean
Speaker 1: to kind of what you're saying, Cheryl. I remember, it's
Speaker 1: my first thought was when I found out that what
Speaker 1: he was cheating was you know, why am I not
Speaker 1: enough for you? To like? Is what's wrong with me?
Speaker 1: That he went to go be with someone else? Like was?
Speaker 1: You know? But my thing was I went back to
Speaker 1: old conversations that we had, like I'll never forget. We
Speaker 1: were sitting at this restaurant and I was asking him, like,
Speaker 1: you know, why he wouldn't be physical with me or
Speaker 1: sleep with me, and he's like, well, look at you.
Speaker 1: You look at you wear to bed, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I wear a big like a big T shirt, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's like, you think that's sexy. Really you think
Speaker 1: that's sexy, And I'm like, I've just never been a
Speaker 1: lingerie girl, right, So I never did pull on lauingderie.
Speaker 1: I always thought the big boyfriend T shirt was sexy
Speaker 1: and like, but like, uh. He immediately blamed his and
Speaker 1: I didn't know he was cheating at that point on
Speaker 1: the fact that I didn't dress sexy. So once I
Speaker 1: found out, I was like, oh, it's because I wasn't
Speaker 1: sexy enough for him, so he chose something else that
Speaker 1: was sexier, and so imediately it went to I wasn't
Speaker 1: good enough. I'm not pretty enough for him to or
Speaker 1: sexy enough, and I you know, I didn't give him
Speaker 1: what he needed, so that's why, and I need to
Speaker 1: now do this to please him so that he stays
Speaker 1: and like doesn't do it again.
Speaker 3: But he was just gas lighting you you know well,
Speaker 3: and I know.
Speaker 1: That now, but it took I mean years of therapy
Speaker 1: to go, oh, wait a minute, this has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with me. I was always good enough. I was
Speaker 1: always pretty enough, and I was it was always his
Speaker 1: low self esteem. But when I go back to all
Speaker 1: the comments, he was trying to bring my self esteem
Speaker 1: down to make himself feel better. But you don't know
Speaker 1: that when that happens, right, like when you're going through
Speaker 1: that divorce, You're like, why who wasn't I good enough?
Speaker 1: Why couldn't he stay for me? And like treat me
Speaker 1: this way? Now this other girl. It's like no, So
Speaker 1: I think you know when I you know, Kate, I
Speaker 1: guess you know. Another question is that is when I
Speaker 1: was talking to my now husband, I was telling him
Speaker 1: we were kind of talking about infidelity, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I said, you know, the main reason that I left
Speaker 1: him wasn't because he cheated. It was because of the
Speaker 1: lies and it was because of the deceit. And he's like,
Speaker 1: what not because he slept with other women? And I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: it was because he lied about it and he wasn't
Speaker 1: honest and he was It was it was the It
Speaker 1: wasn't the act. It was the lie, and it was
Speaker 1: the deceit, That's.
Speaker 3: Why, and not taking accountability and sticking to it like
Speaker 3: it's a whole thing. Yeah, Like it's never the act
Speaker 3: of it's never never.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that hurts. Yeah, I can forgive and
Speaker 1: I tried, but it's always the deceit and the lie.
Speaker 1: And so okay, do you see that a lot with
Speaker 1: is you know, when people file for divorce, you know,
Speaker 1: is it infidelity or do you see it as the
Speaker 1: the the uh, you know, the lie.
Speaker 2: You're right on, it's the lie. It's not the infidelity.
Speaker 2: It's not I'm here the day after I found out
Speaker 2: about this affair. And you've also identified a huge difference
Speaker 2: in the maturity level of twenty year old women that
Speaker 2: I see thirty year old women that I see in forty.
Speaker 2: I mean, and this is partly personal experience, but as
Speaker 2: I talk to female clients, and frankly, I do have
Speaker 2: about a fifty to fifty split gender wise, But with
Speaker 2: my female clients, it's a different mindset. When they're coming in.
Speaker 2: You're so much more confident. Think of what a different
Speaker 2: person you are a twenty year old Janet a thirty
Speaker 2: year old Janet, third year old Cheryl to forty year
Speaker 2: old Cheryl. I mean it's like our milestones are huge,
Speaker 2: and so yes, absolutely it's he wouldn't do the work necessary,
Speaker 2: or maybe maybe she cheated and I just did a
Speaker 2: consult recently. I had an affair ten years ago. I
Speaker 2: was willing to move on. I was willing to go
Speaker 2: to therapy. I wanted to do the work, and he couldn't.
Speaker 2: He never got over it. He throws it in my
Speaker 2: face every day and it just drags the relationship to
Speaker 2: a screeching halt. And so that's absolutely right. Can you
Speaker 2: get a great therapist or counselor which can be difficult
Speaker 2: to do, and do the work needed if both people
Speaker 2: want to save the relationship. Law firm is very very
Speaker 2: resolution oriented, reconciliation oriented, and it doesn't happen a lot.
Speaker 2: But if people are like, we need a therapist, we
Speaker 2: want to work on this, we want to put this
Speaker 2: on hold, I give lots of space for that timeline
Speaker 2: and for that to happen. Does it happen a lot?
Speaker 3: Now It's like my sobriety, like without first of all
Speaker 3: taking accountability and realizing what you did was wrong or
Speaker 3: in my case, when it comes to my sobriety is
Speaker 3: first admitting that I have a problem, right, And you
Speaker 3: can't continue to seesaw back and forth, like it can't
Speaker 3: be like, oh, yes I do, Oh no I don't.
Speaker 3: I'm just a social drinker. Like no, I had to
Speaker 3: have a come to Jesus moment and be like, I
Speaker 3: actually have a drinking problem and if I want to
Speaker 3: get better, I have to do the work and do
Speaker 3: the steps and get into a program and all of it.
Speaker 3: And that's the same thing with infidelity. It's it was
Speaker 3: the teeter tottering. It's like, okay, yes, no, maybe I
Speaker 3: didn't technically cheat on you, or remember when you did this.
Speaker 3: It's like that to me, just is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2: Cheryl. Let me give you a virtual high five, virtual hug.
Speaker 2: Alcohol is the poison of family court. I am so
Speaker 2: impressed with you. What a great lifestyle. So congratulations, Thank
Speaker 2: good for you girl, Thank you.
Speaker 1: What is the number one reason why people are getting
Speaker 1: divorced when they come into your office.
Speaker 2: Grown apart different places in life. If I had to
Speaker 2: pick one, and I get that question a lot, so
Speaker 2: I would not select infidelity. I think that's really a
Speaker 2: byproduct of other things that are happening. I have a
Speaker 2: theory about society with this push to twenty year old people. Everybody,
Speaker 2: whoever you've been with for a year, it's like, what's
Speaker 2: the next step in life? Do you want to have kids?
Speaker 2: What are you doing? I think people young people get
Speaker 2: married to quickly. If you really go through all of
Speaker 2: the seasons with someone deal with difficulty, how do you
Speaker 2: too communicate? I am so lucky. I'm married to a
Speaker 2: man who's emotionally mature. He can communicate, and I don't
Speaker 2: see that a heck of a lot. And it's people
Speaker 2: who are in different places and eventually take the kids
Speaker 2: out of it, because sometimes people stay married or I'll
Speaker 2: see you when my kids are fifteen and up because
Speaker 2: I know this isn't the right relationship for me. But
Speaker 2: looking back, people see the red flags. I've had more
Speaker 2: than ten consults in the last year that will say
Speaker 2: I knew I shouldn't have married this person when we
Speaker 2: were walking down the aisle. That is so heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had one of those. I had one of
Speaker 1: those that went in the bathroom and cried about it
Speaker 1: because I was like, well, prap.
Speaker 3: This is the thing with being in the business. It's
Speaker 3: like it just felt like a dress rehearsal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And why couldn't you Why couldn't you pull
Speaker 2: out of that moment?
Speaker 3: Oh? There was no way in hell.
Speaker 1: We had the magazine you know, thing already they were paying,
Speaker 1: they paid.
Speaker 3: I had Bendy Weiss involved, Like this was not.
Speaker 1: People already had their tickets and how could I How
Speaker 1: could I ruin people's plans was what my thought was, Like.
Speaker 3: Their airline tickets or like the tickets to the show.
Speaker 1: Like the plans, How could I ruin that for them? Yeah,
Speaker 1: they've already spent their money on it.
Speaker 3: Yep, and nothing. Nothing in our thought process was like
Speaker 3: maybe this is wrong and I need to like run
Speaker 3: away bride it.
Speaker 1: You know. It's yeah, that's the part where it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's sad now to think because I believe and now
Speaker 1: I know in my you know, this age being forty,
Speaker 1: that if I would have texted my mom and said, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to actually call this off because I don't
Speaker 1: think it's right, she would be like, I one thousand percent,
Speaker 1: I will let everyone know and I will you know,
Speaker 1: she would have been there. It was just my own
Speaker 1: embarrassment and maybe you know my not I wasn't one
Speaker 1: hundred percent sure, so I thought maybe i'd change my mind.
Speaker 1: I thought maybe i'd get that feeling back when I
Speaker 1: walked down the aisle.
Speaker 3: What did you feel when you walked down the aisle?
Speaker 3: I just out of curiosity, just complete regret. Oh really
Speaker 3: you were present though with yourself?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, because I told my best friend in the bathroom,
Speaker 1: I was like, I just made the biggest mistake, and
Speaker 1: now I don't want to My whole thing was I
Speaker 1: don't want to be divorced with kids because that's the
Speaker 1: house that I grew up in. So I was like,
Speaker 1: I got to divorce them right away because I will
Speaker 1: end up having babies and then we'll get divorced and
Speaker 1: I don't want that. So that was why I then
Speaker 1: did that, you know so, but it was it was wrong,
Speaker 1: and it was it was real to somebody else, and
Speaker 1: that wasn't fair, you know.
Speaker 3: So now would you have gone, would you have stopped everything?
Speaker 1: One hundred percent? And that's why I think to your point,
Speaker 1: Kate is marrying later in life, you know yourself more now,
Speaker 1: and it's I never want to tell like when I
Speaker 1: hear someone young getting married that's in their middle twenties
Speaker 1: or you know, like, I'm like, oh gosh, it like
Speaker 1: almost like breaks my heart and I always want to
Speaker 1: celebrate love, but I also know how much you grow
Speaker 1: during those years too.
Speaker 3: But then also, who am I to say, like what
Speaker 3: is young?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm like, maybe they're you know, maybe they'll end
Speaker 1: up being together forever. So who am I to say?
Speaker 3: And what a learning lesson? Like what I've like, I've
Speaker 3: learned so much too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it's like, why would I want to
Speaker 1: take that away from people too?
Speaker 2: You know? Yeah, I do like the discussion of It's
Speaker 2: part of your story. It makes you part of who
Speaker 2: you are. But my every day is seeing the heartbreak
Speaker 2: of divorce and the heartbreak that it brings even the
Speaker 2: greater family, everybody in the family unit and so young people.
Speaker 2: I say, and I love weddings and I love love.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I love the name of this
Speaker 2: podcast we did. I have a friend who owns a
Speaker 2: magazine in our community, and we ran a short ad
Speaker 2: for our Divorce in the Day program that was when
Speaker 2: your I do needs a redo, do it in a day?
Speaker 2: And I thought, oh, As soon as I saw the
Speaker 2: title of this podcast, I thought, that's fantastic, it's great idea.
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of redos though, I mean, Bill Gates recently
Speaker 1: made headlines because he was saying, you know, his divorce
Speaker 1: was the mistake he most regretted. And you know, have
Speaker 1: you like you kind of spoke on it a little bit,
Speaker 1: but have you seen people then say never mind? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you said that they want to maybe do therapy, but
Speaker 1: do they end up coming back and getting divorced or
Speaker 1: have you had more people actually pull it off the table, they.
Speaker 2: Will come back and get divorced. And I saw that,
Speaker 2: And you know, Bill and Melinda had a long term marriage,
Speaker 2: and I thought the comment was interesting. I'm going to
Speaker 2: predict that he doesn't mean he wishes he was still
Speaker 2: married to her. I think they had their long standing
Speaker 2: issues and it's a very painful process. It's very difficult.
Speaker 2: We almost never have people actually reconcile and stay reconciled.
Speaker 2: I've had couples get divorced, remarried, divorced. I divorced the
Speaker 2: same couple three times throughout my career, and they're kind
Speaker 2: of just a love hate toxic strong feelings and no
Speaker 2: we did a Chris and I did a mediation recently
Speaker 2: where the couple really felt strongly about their relationship. They
Speaker 2: knew it was the right thing. They were very sweet people,
Speaker 2: and they asked us to hold their paperwork. They wanted
Speaker 2: to give it, you know, a little bit of time
Speaker 2: and cold within sixty days and said file it. And
Speaker 2: with the final decree and everything, we don't really see
Speaker 2: the reconciliation that successful long term.
Speaker 1: So when you saw j Loo and Ben then reckon.
Speaker 1: I know they weren't married. They were engaged though, So
Speaker 1: when you saw them get back to Gareth and get married,
Speaker 1: did you already go divorce?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? They're just like that. I mean, it really is
Speaker 2: just like that couple. And of course they have the
Speaker 2: heighten the money, the attention, everything that goes along with
Speaker 2: being in a lister and everybody's watching, which makes it
Speaker 2: more painful. I mean, you've seen some of Jlo's statements,
Speaker 2: and I think it's incredibly painful. I also think that
Speaker 2: very famous celebrities tend to have traits of loneliness because
Speaker 2: that is such an isolating life to live.
Speaker 3: I think I mean that's because they're not though finding
Speaker 3: the true love, which happens within you, right, like you
Speaker 3: complete you regardless, like there is no other person that
Speaker 3: would fill that void for you. So if you haven't
Speaker 3: done that work individually as two separate people, it's going
Speaker 3: to be really hard that you are leaving it up
Speaker 3: for so many expectations on one another that you're bound
Speaker 3: to not ever live up to it.
Speaker 2: That's right, and not as a negative to people like
Speaker 2: Ben and Jlo who have those goes. I don't mean
Speaker 2: that in a negative way. It's just part of their personality.
Speaker 2: But how exhausting to support someone as fabulous and famous
Speaker 2: as you are all the time and have that constant
Speaker 2: balance in your life. How do they find a balance?
Speaker 2: I think? But yeah, I figure they'll be they'll be
Speaker 2: splitting up again.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's easier or more complicated to get
Speaker 1: divorce late in life?
Speaker 3: Easier the silver divorce? Oh yeah?
Speaker 1: So Chery, what is that? Because I you know, I
Speaker 1: saw you were talking about silver divorce, so I have
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. Tell me what I mean?
Speaker 3: I just found out today, But silver divorce is like
Speaker 3: when you divorce later in life, right when you're like
Speaker 3: in your fifty fifty sixties. I think and you realize that, Wow,
Speaker 3: this is not the person I want to live my
Speaker 3: rest of my life with. But I also think it's generational, right, So,
Speaker 3: like I just think about my parents right now. I
Speaker 3: come from a divorce family, but my mom remarried my
Speaker 3: stepfather and if they were too divorced. Today, there's so
Speaker 3: much it's generational in the sense of first of all,
Speaker 3: when my mom, you know, was being raised by her parents,
Speaker 3: there was no such thing like there. She's Filipino, she's
Speaker 3: very Catholic, and there's a lot of shame that comes
Speaker 3: with it. But I think with how open we are
Speaker 3: now with mental health, I think it's leaving that door
Speaker 3: maybe a little bit open for that generation nowadays to
Speaker 3: be like, you know what, I'm going to choose me.
Speaker 2: That's right. And my message to women is choose you
Speaker 2: when you're forty or when the kids are out of
Speaker 2: the house. I have a lot of experience with gray
Speaker 2: or silver divorce, whichever you call it. We're my law
Speaker 2: firms in Phoenix. We're very close to a lot of
Speaker 2: retirement communities, as you can imagine, and I have had
Speaker 2: a lot of the both men and women in their seventies, eighties,
Speaker 2: late eighties. Can you imagine going through this awful process.
Speaker 2: The silver lining is that they're pretty calm about the
Speaker 2: whole situation. And here's the sad part. This is my
Speaker 2: message to middle aged women, because they knew say it's
Speaker 2: a silver divorce, that they have been truly married fifty years,
Speaker 2: not a second marriage, and the kids are long gone.
Speaker 2: All of the properties community they all say they First
Speaker 2: of all, everybody tells me how many years they've been
Speaker 2: living in separate bedrooms, how long it's been since they've
Speaker 2: had sex with each other, And it's decades, I mean
Speaker 2: decades that they've been living as roommates. And it's such
Speaker 2: an awful process. No one wanted to start it, but
Speaker 2: it we all know where the three of us are
Speaker 2: about the same age. When you're fifty, you have a
Speaker 2: whole life ahead of you. I mean that's the heartbreaking
Speaker 2: part when I see the silver divorce because they've been
Speaker 2: you know, they've been roommates for decades. Frankly, I see
Speaker 2: it the opposite.
Speaker 3: Like I think it's a beautiful thing that they're like
Speaker 3: finally seeing themselves, like as their own person, and like
Speaker 3: we do, we evolve, and sometimes it's with that person
Speaker 3: you've decided to partner with, and sometimes it's not, and
Speaker 3: that's okay. But I think it's beautiful that they're opening
Speaker 3: their eyes and trying to walk the rest of their
Speaker 3: life in a present hopefully loving themselves way, you know,
Speaker 3: and doing that work. And I think it's really beautiful.
Speaker 2: It is beautiful. You're right. But it's always because the
Speaker 2: husband gets a girlfriend.
Speaker 3: I mean, but like you said earlier, it's deeper than that.
Speaker 3: It's so much deeper. I don't think it's that just
Speaker 3: because of that. I think there was, like like you said,
Speaker 3: decades of not sleeping together, roommate like that goes. I
Speaker 3: have had that same experience, except not even close to
Speaker 3: as long as those people have been married. You know.
Speaker 3: That's feeling of stagnant, like that stagnation feeling. I am out,
Speaker 3: I'm out fast, I can't be in it.
Speaker 2: You're right that it is much better. And with these
Speaker 2: communities that we have in this area, there's so many
Speaker 2: activities and new friend groups and support groups and any
Speaker 2: new beginning or a chance that finding yourself is worth it.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 1: Is it hard for you to be a divorce lawyer?
Speaker 2: It's not. And I can't really explain the reason, because
Speaker 2: most of my colleagues find it to be incredibly difficult
Speaker 2: on a personal level. They take the feelings home with
Speaker 2: them and I've just never been like that, and I
Speaker 2: don't really know the reason. I'm just suited for the job.
Speaker 2: I see it as a puzzle. I really, really I
Speaker 2: could be a life coach in another life. Although I'm
Speaker 2: not trained for that. I really enjoy it and I've
Speaker 2: as after thirty, I no longer work every hour of
Speaker 2: the week. I have really good boundaries. All my clients
Speaker 2: have my cell phone number. They appropriately I really like
Speaker 2: my job. But if other divorce lawyers are telling you
Speaker 2: the truth, I think I'm in the minority on that.
Speaker 3: How do you separate the emotion? Like, how do you
Speaker 3: do that it.
Speaker 2: Stays at the office. I really treat this as a
Speaker 2: job that I like. I care about my clients. I
Speaker 2: think they really care. I have wonderful clients. I'm very
Speaker 2: realistic with people. You probably know divorce attorneys can treat
Speaker 2: the job as making a lot of money, fighting a lot,
Speaker 2: filing a lot of emotions, billing by the hour. The
Speaker 2: more fighting, the sooner my kids get their college paid.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's a reality of the job, and our
Speaker 2: business model is saving people money, keeping the emotions in check.
Speaker 2: I'm very realistic with them up front. We talk about
Speaker 2: their goals, we talk about the law, we talk about
Speaker 2: the process, we talk about mediation, and I our office
Speaker 2: is trying to change the culture of divorce in Arizona,
Speaker 2: and that's how I treat it.
Speaker 1: Would you recommend a prenup for people that get married.
Speaker 2: I do recommend a prenup, and I don't think that
Speaker 2: it should hold the stereotype of you're getting a prenup
Speaker 2: and that's anti love, or if you're going to be together,
Speaker 2: you don't need it. I think there are many benefits
Speaker 2: to a prenup and anybody who's not twenty with nothing
Speaker 2: should consider it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, for sure. I guess my piece with the divorce,
Speaker 1: just for my personal stuff is the fact that you know,
Speaker 1: I pay my ex husband. I paid him a lump sum,
Speaker 1: and I also pay him child support and I have
Speaker 1: the kids seventy it's seventy thirty split. So I find
Speaker 1: it I always get a little like frustrated when I
Speaker 1: have conversations of just you know, because divorce and because
Speaker 1: it kind of just brings up all those you know,
Speaker 1: those feelings and that resentment and it's just it's just yuck.
Speaker 2: I don't like.
Speaker 3: I wish you would have planned a prenup.
Speaker 1: We had a post up, but the problem was my
Speaker 1: divorce lawyer said it's not going to hold up in
Speaker 1: court as well as a prenup, and he's like, he
Speaker 1: technically can fight it and he could still technically win half,
Speaker 1: you know, which my ex husband at the time was like,
Speaker 1: I will never fight this, you know what I mean, which,
Speaker 1: of course when we got divorced, he's like, I'm going
Speaker 1: to fight this. But apparently again they the prenup will
Speaker 1: always hold up. And then if is that right or wrong?
Speaker 1: Prenup holds up better than post.
Speaker 2: Up, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: So that's why, you know, with that situation, it's uh,
Speaker 1: I wish for sure I would have had signed a
Speaker 1: prenup with him prenup, but you know, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I still would be paying child support.
Speaker 1: That is the law of with the things, and that's
Speaker 1: you know, a whole other story.
Speaker 3: But feel free to tell me too off, But did
Speaker 3: you sign one this time around?
Speaker 1: So we have never discussed that. We're still not going
Speaker 1: to discuss that. But but you know, it was it
Speaker 1: was a very long conversation. We had a lot of
Speaker 1: conversation around it, and uh, I think it's really hard
Speaker 1: for men to have that conversation, especially you know, my
Speaker 1: husband is very old school and you know, did not
Speaker 1: love the idea of it. And you know, whatever we
Speaker 1: decided was a private matter, but it was something that
Speaker 1: was very important to say. It was very important to
Speaker 1: me because of how much was taken from my ex,
Speaker 1: how much my ex husband took.
Speaker 2: I think you probably, even if you did or didn't
Speaker 2: having that conversation, you were miles ahead of most people
Speaker 2: because it's such a tough topic. If you two talked
Speaker 2: it through and talked about all your assets and what
Speaker 2: you think for the future, that's you're doing better than
Speaker 2: a lot of people before they get married.
Speaker 1: So super But my my divorce attorney was definitely likes
Speaker 1: you are have it like there's no like. He's like,
Speaker 1: you are signing this, and I'm just like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: hear you and I need to have we have to
Speaker 1: have conversations. It's it's a conversation piece because I am
Speaker 1: you know, old school and the fact that I do
Speaker 1: believe in you know, love and a marriage actually lasting.
Speaker 1: I you know, I didn't get it right this go around.
Speaker 1: And that's why I love this podcast because this is
Speaker 1: about you know, I do part two and you know, Cheryl,
Speaker 1: I didn't get it right a couple of times. And Cheryl,
Speaker 1: you know you didn't. We thought you got it right,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But I think there's a
Speaker 1: piece of that I do Part two that I that
Speaker 1: I love and where you know, as sad as when
Speaker 1: I asked you the question about you know, is it
Speaker 1: hard for you? Because I believe that as much as
Speaker 1: divorce makes me so sad, Cheryl, I've seen from watching
Speaker 1: you on the outside of things you have, there's a
Speaker 1: different aura about you now. You're happier, you're lighter, You've
Speaker 1: like I see it from just watching your stories. And
Speaker 1: I love that people have their next chapters and that
Speaker 1: they get to fall in love again and find love
Speaker 1: that they deserve and that suits them and that you know,
Speaker 1: respects them. And so that is like so beautiful and
Speaker 1: you've come into your own and like it's just it's
Speaker 1: really beautiful to witness someone falling in love with themselves
Speaker 1: for then that person to fall in love with them
Speaker 1: and respect them the way that they deserve. So, you know,
Speaker 1: I appreciate Kate you coming on and talking to us,
Speaker 1: and you know, I just I look forward to all
Speaker 1: the people that have their part too, Cheryl, yours is
Speaker 1: coming up. See it's common, it's common. I feel the
Speaker 1: glow up I do. I just I see it and
Speaker 1: I love the lightness in you. You know, you've you've,
Speaker 1: You've entered the lights.
Speaker 3: Definitely different from our last conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kate, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thank you both.
Speaker 1: Are you divorced? Navigating what your I Do Part two
Speaker 1: could look like? I need some advice? Call us or
Speaker 1: email us, follow us on socials. All the information will
Speaker 1: be in the show notes. Make sure to rate and
Speaker 1: review the podcast I Do Part two and iHeartRadio podcast
Speaker 1: where falling in love is the main objective. Love you, Cheryl,
Speaker 1: Love you,