1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:10,880
Speaker 1: M m M. Music syncs synchronization of a song with

2
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,000
Speaker 1: a visual medium like a film or TV show, have

3
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 1: long been a powerful tool for exposure. There's Lizzo's Truth Hurts,

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 1: which you may remember from the Netflix movie Someone Great,

5
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 1: or Apple's use of YouTube's Vertigo for an iPod ad,

6
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,200
Speaker 1: and the phrase how to save a life may forever

7
00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,920
Speaker 1: be linked to Grey's Anatomy. These songs not only made

8
00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: for big movie and TV moments, but found continued life

9
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 1: after the peak of the projects that featured them had passed.

10
00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,560
Speaker 1: Which brings us to Kate Bush's Running Up That Hill,

11
00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 1: which was released in and ends as the twelve most

12
00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,519
Speaker 1: consumed song of the year. How did this song end

13
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,720
Speaker 1: up sitting alongside hits by Drake and Dualipa thirty seven

14
00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 1: years after its original release. Well, Ranger things Happened Season four, specifically,

15
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,959
Speaker 1: which used Running Up That Hill as a musical theme

16
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:10,000
Speaker 1: connecting to the character Max. The road to clearing the

17
00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,560
Speaker 1: song's use on the Netflix hit was a long one,

18
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 1: and started with convincing the elusive Cape Bush to agree

19
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 1: to its use. Sony Music Publishing's Vice president of creative

20
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,880
Speaker 1: Amy Coles, takes us through the process of a successful

21
00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200
Speaker 1: sink and explains the unique role she plays in the

22
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 1: music for screens ecosystem. This episode coincides with Variety's annual

23
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,320
Speaker 1: Hit Makers issue, which highlights the biggest songs of the year,

24
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,080
Speaker 1: another of which was Lizzo's About Damn Time, produced by

25
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 1: our second guest, Grammy winning producer and entrepreneur Ricky Reid.

26
00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,880
Speaker 1: Ricky sat with Variety's Deputy music editor jem Aswad in

27
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,240
Speaker 1: his recording studio in Los Angeles, taking him through the

28
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 1: musical elements that served as the building blocks to the song,

29
00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 1: which not only marked Lizzo's return to the top of

30
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,360
Speaker 1: the pop charts at the world's return to living after COVID,

31
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,639
Speaker 1: Sony Music Publishing is changing the narrative on songwriter support.

32
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,120
Speaker 1: Songwriter Assistance is a new program that provides Sony Music

33
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 1: Publishing is global roster of songwriters and composers with access

34
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:24,480
Speaker 1: to free, confidential counseling services and wellness resources. The program

35
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 1: offers seven support with global outlines, as well as ongoing

36
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 1: counseling for emotional health matters such as stress, anxiety, depression,

37
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 1: and family and relationship challenges. If you are a Sony

38
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,120
Speaker 1: Music Publishing songwriter and would like to learn more, please

39
00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:48,320
Speaker 1: visit Sony Music pub dot com. Welcome back to Strictly Business.

40
00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:53,880
Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Sony Music Publishing's Amy Coles. So

41
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,440
Speaker 1: this is a special episode that we're doing in partnership

42
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 1: with Sony Music Publishing to celebrate varieties hit Makers issue.

43
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,079
Speaker 1: This is our franchise issue at the end of the

44
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 1: year where we look at the most consumed songs of

45
00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 1: the year and we really drilled down on who is

46
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,359
Speaker 1: responsible for making this a hit and for breaking it.

47
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: And we're very happy and proud to name you, Amy Coles,

48
00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,520
Speaker 1: our guest here today, our hit breaker of the Year.

49
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 1: And this is an award that we give to someone

50
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: who really made a key decision that helped catapult a song.

51
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,440
Speaker 1: And this song is of course Kate Bushes Running Up

52
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,760
Speaker 1: That Hill, which I never in a million years thought

53
00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,800
Speaker 1: I would be talking about in two So congrats, Amy,

54
00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,040
Speaker 1: and welcome, Thanks so much, thanks for having me. I

55
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: want to just give our audience a little bit of

56
00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,000
Speaker 1: an idea of what you do, because I'm not sure

57
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,960
Speaker 1: that people are familiar with the sync world with song placements,

58
00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 1: with the world of sort of like intersecting visual media

59
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,080
Speaker 1: and music. So it seems like a lot of people

60
00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:02,320
Speaker 1: who go into TV and film inc roles either happened

61
00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 1: into it like it was like your first job in

62
00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 1: the music industry, or like you've always wanted to do this,

63
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: but otherwise people don't really know about this world of

64
00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,160
Speaker 1: sync when they start out. So tell me a little

65
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: bit about sort of like the beginnings of your career

66
00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,919
Speaker 1: and how you got into this specific line of work. Yeah,

67
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,640
Speaker 1: I think you're right. This is a very niche area

68
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,200
Speaker 1: of the industry that a lot of people aren't even

69
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,240
Speaker 1: aware that this job exists. I guess that I fall

70
00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 1: into the category of kind of falling into this area

71
00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,800
Speaker 1: of the business. So as I was looking into colleges,

72
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 1: I came across USC's Music Industry program, and it kind

73
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,440
Speaker 1: of had everything I wanted and the best of both

74
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,680
Speaker 1: worlds where I was able to study vocal arts and

75
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 1: music performance and music theory and also learn all about

76
00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,839
Speaker 1: the business. So there were classes in music law, putting

77
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,960
Speaker 1: on a live event management, and music sync music for

78
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,480
Speaker 1: film and television. So that was kind of my first

79
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,160
Speaker 1: introduction into that word. Old was one of the classes

80
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,919
Speaker 1: that we all took was a sync class and learning

81
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,960
Speaker 1: about publishing, learning about the labels, and learning about clearing

82
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 1: a song for film and TV. And then it was

83
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: kind of just luck. I did a couple of different

84
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,719
Speaker 1: internships and one of them was over at lions Gate

85
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,560
Speaker 1: in their music department, and we were reaching out to

86
00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 1: the labels and the publishers to clear songs for lions

87
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 1: Gates film productions, and I found I really liked it,

88
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,040
Speaker 1: and I ended up at Sony on the label side,

89
00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: doing primarily film, and then twelve years ago started here

90
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,599
Speaker 1: at Sony Music Publishing, working mostly with television and clearing

91
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,200
Speaker 1: music for television, and I've been here ever since. So

92
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,599
Speaker 1: I think I found my little niche of the world

93
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,279
Speaker 1: that I like awesome, and we should just clarify. So,

94
00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,039
Speaker 1: being on the recorded music side is like the songs

95
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,240
Speaker 1: get made and the label is pushing it out as

96
00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 1: part of a campaign for an album or for a

97
00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,720
Speaker 1: project for a tour, and that's the job of the

98
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,839
Speaker 1: labeled person is to just find those opportunities to put

99
00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:01,919
Speaker 1: it out there, to sync the song. And on the

100
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,600
Speaker 1: publishing side, it's a little bit different, right, Can you

101
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,040
Speaker 1: sort of explain the nuance? Yeah, it is a little

102
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,360
Speaker 1: bit different. I found on the label side, we were

103
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: often being asked to push singles or new songs that

104
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,160
Speaker 1: were coming up, and an artist hit song that everybody

105
00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,880
Speaker 1: knows and find a placement for that. And in publishing,

106
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,320
Speaker 1: I find that it's a little bit more open where

107
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,360
Speaker 1: we find other opportunities for catalog songs, other areas of

108
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,960
Speaker 1: an artist catalog. And also with publishing, this song is

109
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,880
Speaker 1: always used. The composition is always used, and that's not

110
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,479
Speaker 1: always the case at the label. They may not always

111
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,479
Speaker 1: use the artists recording. It could be a cover, it

112
00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,960
Speaker 1: could be an actor on screen singing it. Sometimes productions

113
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,839
Speaker 1: create their own new instrumental versions of a song, but

114
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,560
Speaker 1: they always need to clear the composition, which is what

115
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,960
Speaker 1: we do. As a music publisher. You have a little

116
00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:56,039
Speaker 1: bit more freedom and you have a wider catalog to

117
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,799
Speaker 1: get out into the world. And I would almost equate

118
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 1: it to like if you go into a record store,

119
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,440
Speaker 1: thinking back to back when there were record stores, you

120
00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 1: have all the shiny new albums, whether they're vinyl CDs, whatever,

121
00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 1: and then on the bottom you have the crates, right,

122
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 1: and those might be like ID nine said albums, but

123
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 1: there may be a Stevie Wonder in the key of

124
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 1: life in there. So it's kind of like that. It's

125
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 1: like you have these treasures in the catalog. First of all,

126
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,480
Speaker 1: there are millions of them. I mean, Sony Music Publishing

127
00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 1: is a huge company, represents literally millions of songs. How

128
00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,520
Speaker 1: does a running up that hill, that needle in the haystack?

129
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: Why that song? Let's talk about that song. Obviously, Stranger

130
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,240
Speaker 1: Things and it's use in Stranger Things was really what

131
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 1: catapulted it onto the charts for the first time since,

132
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,120
Speaker 1: and it didn't climb that high when it was a

133
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 1: current single. What came first, the show, the idea, the song,

134
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,880
Speaker 1: tell me the story. I've been working with Northfelder, the

135
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 1: music supervisor on Stranger Things, for the past four seasons,

136
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 1: and our creative team definitely sends her everything we have

137
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,080
Speaker 1: in our eighties catalog. Since it takes place in the eighties,

138
00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,080
Speaker 1: she needs music authentic to what was actually released and

139
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 1: available during that time. So yeah, we've been clearing songs

140
00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 1: for all four seasons of Stranger Things, and I've had

141
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 1: some nice uses, but this one was really, really special.

142
00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,920
Speaker 1: Norah came approached us in about this idea she had

143
00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,679
Speaker 1: for a really special song for one of the characters Max,

144
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,800
Speaker 1: and it was a song that was going to motivate

145
00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 1: Max and get her through some really tough times. And

146
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 1: she reached out to me and asked, what do you

147
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,440
Speaker 1: think about Kate Bush running up that hill? Like, do

148
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,600
Speaker 1: you think she'd approve it? And Kate is very thoughtful,

149
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: She's very selective about what sinks she approves, so I

150
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,440
Speaker 1: wasn't sure what the answer was. But you know, all

151
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,200
Speaker 1: we can do is try. All we can do is ask.

152
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 1: And this sink was different from some of the other

153
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 1: straightforward ones where it's just it's one use. Usually the

154
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,800
Speaker 1: production will send us a scene description of what's happening

155
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: while the song plays, and we'll take that to management

156
00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: or the writer themselves. And in this case, a lot

157
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 1: of it was unknown because they were just kind of early.

158
00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 1: A couple of scripts had been written, but the whole

159
00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: season hadn't been read yet. They wanted to make sure

160
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,400
Speaker 1: that they would be able to carry this song throughout

161
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,760
Speaker 1: this season and make it a really, a really meaningful

162
00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,760
Speaker 1: song to Max. So we took what information we had

163
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,960
Speaker 1: at that time and I reached out to management. We

164
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,600
Speaker 1: kind of discussed the idea of it. Not only did

165
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: we have to work it out creatively and make sure

166
00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,520
Speaker 1: it was something that Kate was confident that her work

167
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,560
Speaker 1: would be used in a positive way, in an impactful way.

168
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 1: But we also had to negotiate a fee structure that

169
00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,760
Speaker 1: would value the song correctly and for how many uses

170
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,560
Speaker 1: it was going to be, but also make it something

171
00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: that Netflix wouldn't be like, well, well, we can't do that,

172
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: we can't afford it. So it's kind of an interesting

173
00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 1: dance of how to make everybody happy. And we had

174
00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,319
Speaker 1: a little bit of a delay due to COVID, and

175
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,440
Speaker 1: then top of it picked up full steam and we

176
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,200
Speaker 1: had more information, more scripts were written, and we were

177
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,679
Speaker 1: able to give Kate's management team more info on what

178
00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,240
Speaker 1: was happening in the real scope of the school use.

179
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: And I don't know if even they knew how big

180
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 1: this was while we were just talking about and talking

181
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,079
Speaker 1: about each use individually. I'm not sure any of us

182
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,200
Speaker 1: really knew how it was going to look when it

183
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 1: all came together at the end. But yeah, the first

184
00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 1: half of this year was basically daily phone calls back

185
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,280
Speaker 1: and forth between me and Nora and me and the

186
00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,720
Speaker 1: record label and us go into management and working this out.

187
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,679
Speaker 1: So it's all really really exciting when it was released

188
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 1: and we all got to see it on our television

189
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 1: screens and see it come to life. It was really exciting,

190
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,080
Speaker 1: and I'm really happy for Kate Bush. You know, it's

191
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,800
Speaker 1: forty years later, but finally, finally she's getting the recognition

192
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,920
Speaker 1: she deserves because it's a great song. So when you

193
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,959
Speaker 1: first were crafting the email to her management, what did

194
00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,720
Speaker 1: you think the percentage was your chance of actually getting

195
00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,199
Speaker 1: the song? I wasn't sure. I was hopeful. I'm always

196
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,320
Speaker 1: hopeful that it's going to work out because we always

197
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,000
Speaker 1: want to say yes to productions that we always wanted

198
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,040
Speaker 1: to be something positive for our songwriters. But I wasn't sure.

199
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,800
Speaker 1: Stranger Things is one of those show was that has

200
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,160
Speaker 1: such a great following and such a ravenous fan base,

201
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,559
Speaker 1: and I know this fan base is also music fans.

202
00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,719
Speaker 1: I knew that the fans of Stranger Things were going

203
00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,679
Speaker 1: to be excited about this song, but I wasn't sure

204
00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: if that was enough. And I was also a bit

205
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,520
Speaker 1: hesitant because we couldn't give her team all of the

206
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: information because it didn't exist yet. I was nervous that

207
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,680
Speaker 1: that might be a hurdle and she needs to know

208
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:27,520
Speaker 1: all the information that we don't like to have any

209
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 1: surprises where something's happening in the use that we weren't

210
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,040
Speaker 1: expecting that could be derogatory or violent, or you know,

211
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,520
Speaker 1: something that we need to be aware of. So I

212
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 1: was nervous about those things, but also hopeful that she

213
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,200
Speaker 1: and her team would be kind of excited that this

214
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 1: was a special one. This was not just an ordinary

215
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 1: you know, ordinary things are great, but this one was

216
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: really really special, and I hoped that they could see

217
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 1: that through email without seeing it yet. Wow, so great.

218
00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 1: I assume you're a fan. Obviously you watched the show

219
00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: because you're constantly dealing with the creative side of it.

220
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,720
Speaker 1: This is a use of one song, but it's used

221
00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,240
Speaker 1: for a long period of time. I was wondering if

222
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,800
Speaker 1: that was like, Okay, we've got the clearance, let's make

223
00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,439
Speaker 1: the absolute most of this. Like you're not going to

224
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 1: play like thirty second snippet. It's gonna recur, it's going

225
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,160
Speaker 1: to be in multiple scenes, story arcs. Am I right

226
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,920
Speaker 1: to assume that, yeah, And that was part of the

227
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,800
Speaker 1: the negotiation was we created a kind of deal that

228
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,960
Speaker 1: gave Netflix an incentive to use the song more times,

229
00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,480
Speaker 1: with the understanding that if they used it two times,

230
00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:36,960
Speaker 1: that's considered sort of a straightforward use. But if it

231
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: was really going to be this continuous like theme a theme, Yeah,

232
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,839
Speaker 1: if it was going to be thematic, that we'd work

233
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 1: something out. And we did, and it was something that

234
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,400
Speaker 1: Kate's team was happy with and we're happy with, and

235
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,520
Speaker 1: I'm glad it worked out, and I'm glad that there

236
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 1: were so many uses so that it really became a thing. Yeah,

237
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 1: and there's also an orchestral version of it. How did

238
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,680
Speaker 1: that work? Those sort of combination some of the two

239
00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 1: things did Kate that she did? Yeah, that one was

240
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 1: tough and kind of came down to the wire. And

241
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 1: my counterpart over at the label Warner Brothers her name's tweet,

242
00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 1: we really worked together on that one, and we also

243
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 1: spoke every day every day about this US. But Kate's team,

244
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,560
Speaker 1: the initial approval was for her original recording, of course,

245
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,960
Speaker 1: and when they came to us with this idea for

246
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 1: this orchestral version, they had sent us kind of a

247
00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,679
Speaker 1: rough cut. It wasn't a full orchestra recording, it was

248
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,760
Speaker 1: not MIDI, But yeah, the team was kind of okay

249
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,079
Speaker 1: on it, but not super excited, and so we were

250
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 1: kind of working out the details of that, and meanwhile,

251
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 1: the flights were booked. They were going to London to

252
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 1: record with the London Symphony Orchestra, and they were leaving

253
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 1: in hours, and we were trying to get this approval

254
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,559
Speaker 1: and we didn't quite have it yet, and production decided, well,

255
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 1: the flights are booked, the musicians are ready, We're going

256
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,360
Speaker 1: to record it and see what happens, and maybe we

257
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 1: won't get to use it, but I'm really glad they

258
00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,400
Speaker 1: did because they recorded it, it really sounded great and

259
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: we were able will send the final version over to

260
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,120
Speaker 1: Kate's team, and ultimately it was approved, and I mean,

261
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,280
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful recording and a great new way to

262
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,000
Speaker 1: revitalize this use so that viewers could hear it in

263
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:15,800
Speaker 1: a new way. Why do you think that eighties music

264
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 1: is so popular as a soundtrack to especially TV series.

265
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,800
Speaker 1: I think it's it's nostalgic. I think a lot of

266
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: us that either were born in the eighties or grew

267
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 1: up in the eighties, were teenagers in the eighties. It's

268
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 1: a happy time to reflect back on. And I think

269
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,760
Speaker 1: the world in two is hard and there's a lot

270
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,320
Speaker 1: of stuff going on, and I think it's comforting to

271
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,040
Speaker 1: look back at the eighties and think of the simplicity

272
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 1: and the lack of social media and the lack of

273
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 1: a constant news cycle and just go back to riding

274
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: your bike at night and playing video games and hanging

275
00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,520
Speaker 1: out with your friends is just a comforting, warm feeling

276
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 1: and I think people are great for that. And music wise,

277
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 1: it was a great decade for music, and I think

278
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,840
Speaker 1: a lot of those songs bring back memories for people

279
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,640
Speaker 1: or just create a vibe that makes people happy and nostalgic. Yeah,

280
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 1: I would agree. How rare is it that a running

281
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 1: up that Hill phenomenon happens where a song really just

282
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 1: goes into the stratosphere from a use on a TV show.

283
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,480
Speaker 1: Really very rare, and it's something that happened organically. You

284
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,400
Speaker 1: can't create this kind of moment. It's not something that

285
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,040
Speaker 1: we can go out and yet necessarily it's kind of

286
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,680
Speaker 1: the perfect alignment of the stars of a great production

287
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,600
Speaker 1: with a great script, a great idea, a great episode

288
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 1: combined with a great song and something that touches the

289
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 1: viewers emotionally, and those two things coming together to just

290
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,360
Speaker 1: really build that emotion and something that people will remember

291
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,880
Speaker 1: or they'll go look up that song or think about

292
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 1: it later that it does and just disappear the minute

293
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 1: that scene is over. It's something we're always striving for,

294
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily easy to achieve. It's a lot

295
00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 1: of stars aligning. I love that. I was just gonna

296
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: ask something about that because I was thinking about what

297
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,320
Speaker 1: other songs have sort of had this trajectory, and I

298
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 1: was thinking maybe like the chasing Cars from Grey's Anatomy Anatomy, Yeah, Yeah,

299
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: that was one of those songs. The Fray. Yeah, it

300
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,000
Speaker 1: doesn't come around that often, but when it does, it's

301
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 1: like really really big. Do you have a memory when

302
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 1: you were sort of forming your musical taste, Was there

303
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 1: a movie music moment that really resonated with you, made

304
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,480
Speaker 1: an impact on you. Yeah. When I was a teenager,

305
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 1: I was really into MTV is the Real World, and

306
00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,120
Speaker 1: I remember one time it was the end of the

307
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,240
Speaker 1: season and everybody was moving out of a house and

308
00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 1: saying they're goodbyes, and the song Closing Time started playing,

309
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 1: and that was the first time I remember being aware

310
00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,200
Speaker 1: of a music use and TV that connected with what

311
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,840
Speaker 1: was happening on TV, and that was the first time

312
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,920
Speaker 1: that I thought, Oh, this isn't a random occurrence. Human

313
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,160
Speaker 1: being shows that song for this specific moment, and Wow,

314
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 1: what a cool job that is. And I didn't know

315
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,280
Speaker 1: what the job was. I didn't know if it was

316
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,840
Speaker 1: its own job or someone in production just picked the song.

317
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,720
Speaker 1: I didn't know that you had to get permission. I

318
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 1: didn't know anything about it. But I remember understanding that

319
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: human being put two pieces of creative work, if you

320
00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,480
Speaker 1: want to call it MTVS real world creative work, put

321
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,520
Speaker 1: those two pieces together and made a moment. That's probably

322
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,800
Speaker 1: the first time I remember thinking about this as a thing.

323
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god, who's the band that's did closing time?

324
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 1: I think it's Semi Sonic. I'm sure Semisnic got a

325
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,439
Speaker 1: whole like four dollars from MTV for that use, and

326
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: it launched a career for you and it's stuck with me. Yes,

327
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 1: that's amazing. Let's talk a little bit about running up

328
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 1: that hell becoming a legitimate radio hit, because it is.

329
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,120
Speaker 1: It's the twelve most consumed song of the year, so

330
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:08,439
Speaker 1: that's across all audio platforms including streaming, sales, radio, etcetera.

331
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,920
Speaker 1: It's nestled between cold Heart by Elton John and Dualipa

332
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,679
Speaker 1: and Something in the Orange by Zach Bryan, which is

333
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,639
Speaker 1: actually kind of a new entry not too far away

334
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: as Drake Bad Bunny Harry Styles. Again, would I've ever

335
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 1: imagined ino that this would be a top fifteen song? Like? No,

336
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: how did it move from sync to overall consumption hit?

337
00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,439
Speaker 1: Like it's being listened to on multiple platforms, It's on

338
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 1: the radio. How did that happen? I mean, I guess

339
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 1: it's from the fans. Stranger Things is obviously a widely

340
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,920
Speaker 1: watched Netflix series and a lot of people have their

341
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 1: eyes on it, and I think sincs have a way

342
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 1: of really making an impact of creating a new life

343
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: for catalog artists and also breaking emerging artists. People are

344
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 1: consuming television and film at record rates and music is

345
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: a big part of that. And you couldn't watch this

346
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,720
Speaker 1: season without hearing this song, and I think that creates

347
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 1: nostalgia for people who are Kpe Bush fans, and it

348
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,159
Speaker 1: creates curiosity for those who maybe had never heard that

349
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,160
Speaker 1: song before. People are zamming while they're watching, people are

350
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,760
Speaker 1: going back to Spotify or wherever to stream the song.

351
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 1: Radio was playing it all over the place. I think

352
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,239
Speaker 1: it was just an excitement. It was all happening at

353
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,000
Speaker 1: one time. Everyone was watching Stranger Things at one time,

354
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,399
Speaker 1: and yes, think just has a way of connecting music

355
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 1: to viewers. I think it really can help enhance the

356
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 1: scene and people get excited about that, you know, since

357
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 1: it was just Halloween and I saw that Max was

358
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: a popular Halloween costume, and I'm sure there were many

359
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 1: punted houses or Halloween decorated houses that were probably playing

360
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: running up that hill on the loop. Did you notice

361
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 1: a tipping point personally when you were like, Oh, this

362
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 1: is actually way bigger than Stranger Things. Yeah, I mean

363
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: I was really excited for the at least steak because

364
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: I wanted other people to see this. A lot of

365
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 1: people watch Stranger Things. But I guess I didn't really

366
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 1: realize how big it was going to be until it

367
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,160
Speaker 1: was released and people started talking about it, and everyone

368
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: was talking about it and how people wanted to know

369
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 1: the story. As many sinks as I've done in my career,

370
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 1: nobody's nobody's ever interviewed me about one before, so I

371
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 1: think the interest in how this came about it released hard.

372
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,160
Speaker 1: People's interest in what is sink what is this? How

373
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 1: does this work? So it wasn't until the episodes were

374
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 1: released that I really understood how big this was. I

375
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 1: knew it was going to be special, I didn't know

376
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,719
Speaker 1: how big it was going to be. And I'm so

377
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 1: glad that we're still talking about it and that it's

378
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 1: still being played on the radio. And I think Kate

379
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 1: deserves every minute of this. And I'm so happy that

380
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,320
Speaker 1: she's getting the accolades for this song. It's a beautiful song,

381
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,880
Speaker 1: It's a timeless song, and I'm so glad that we're

382
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,200
Speaker 1: all listening to it now. In just a couple of

383
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 1: more things. Are you getting requests now for sound alike

384
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: for Kate Bush sound alike? Yeah? Like songs that sound

385
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: like Yeah. People are like, I want something like running

386
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 1: Up the Hill a little bit, And I think productions

387
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: are probably going to stay away from it for a

388
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 1: minute since it's so closely tied now to Stranger Things,

389
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: But we do have interest in the rest of her catalog.

390
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: She has a vast catalog of other songs, so we

391
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: are seeing requests for other parts of her catalog. We

392
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,240
Speaker 1: would all love to have another Kate Bush Stranger Things moment.

393
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 1: Like I said, you can't manufacture this, but having a

394
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: an impactful sink is what people are really looking for. Yeah,

395
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: I think there's renewed interest definitely across the industry. Well,

396
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 1: last thing, I kind of wanted to get a little

397
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: bit more forward looking. What are you working on now? Okay,

398
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 1: you've had this huge success, we're coming into what's that

399
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: look like for you? Honestly, after all this happened, it

400
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: was kind of just back to the grind. We clear

401
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: a lot of sinkies is all day long, and we're

402
00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:01,360
Speaker 1: so thankful that there are so many any productions now

403
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 1: that it's beyond just your television that it's streaming and

404
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: internet and everything. We're all just really busy clearing for

405
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: everything for any new show that's coming up, we're on

406
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 1: top of and we're always trying to find opportunities for

407
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,199
Speaker 1: our songwriters. You know, we would love to get the

408
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 1: catalog hits out there and get them a revived life

409
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,200
Speaker 1: for new attention. We love to get our emerging artists

410
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: out into projects and have people hear it. Our goal

411
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 1: is to have people hear the songs. So yeah, it

412
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: was kind of just back to the grind. And again

413
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: just for some context, So any music publishing is home

414
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: to like the Queen catalog. Right, We hear a lot

415
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 1: of Queen in advertising and everywhere you know, movies, TV, etcetera.

416
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: You guys also have Olivia Rodrigo and cheering Marvin Gay

417
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: Nile Rogers Like this is a very deep, deep catalog. Yeah,

418
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: it's a great catalog. Favorite part of my job is

419
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: listening to music all day long. I listened to any

420
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 1: thing and everything that comes through. And our our catalog

421
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: is just full of wonderful gems and classic songs everyone knows,

422
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: and a lot of new things that maybe you haven't

423
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: heard yet but hopefully you will soon. I love it. Well, Amy,

424
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: congrats on this honor on an amazing year that you've had.

425
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: Bravo to you, to Cape Bush, to the team, to

426
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: Sony Music Publishing, and thanks for being with us on

427
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: strictly business. Thanks so much. We need to take a

428
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be back with Ricky read through.

429
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 1: The newly launched Songwriter Assistance Program, Sony Music Publishing offers

430
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: wellness solutions for its entire global roster, including access to

431
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: free confidential counseling services. Sony Music Publishing songwriters and composers

432
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: can connect with a dedicated, licensed therapist at no cost

433
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: to address stress, anxiety, depression, grief, family and relationship matters,

434
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: and more. With Songwriter Assistance, songwriters also have access to

435
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: around the clock resources and support for daily life, from

436
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: researching childcare options, locating a pet sitter to budgeting a

437
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: major life event. Songwriter Assistance has your back. If you

438
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: are Sony Music Publishing songwriter and would like to learn more,

439
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: please visit Sony Music pub dot com. And we're back

440
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: to jem Oswald's conversation with Ricky Read here in this

441
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: lovely studio in Echo Park, Los Angeles with Ricky Read Varieties,

442
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: hit Makers, Producer of the Year, congratulations, so thank you

443
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 1: so much. Yes, this is largely specifically for Lizzo and

444
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: about Damn Time. But looking at your track record, Halsey,

445
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: Camila Cabello, John Battiz, Leon Bridges, twenty one Pilots, Scissa

446
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: Marion Morris, bomba stereo, let me see. I don't see

447
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,160
Speaker 1: any death metal, I don't see any polka, I don't

448
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: see any tube and throat singers, So step up, all right.

449
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: First of all, tell me about how the song came

450
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: together about Damn Time. We'll start there and then we'll

451
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: go back. You know, we were in that classic scenario

452
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: where we had been working on this album, the Lizza Album,

453
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, and we knew we needed

454
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: one more record that could not only be sort of

455
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: a thesis statement for the album, but Lizzo needed a declaration,

456
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: so to speak, going into this new year, and wanted

457
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: her to like give everybody a warm hug. We wanted

458
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: her to address that things are not as easy or

459
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: as fun maybe as they felt a couple of years ago,

460
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: but to still give people some joy and some hope.

461
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 1: So I went in I believe it was the first

462
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: or second week of January of this year, went in

463
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: with Blake Slacken, and he and I jammed on a

464
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: couple of ideas, and I believe it started with him

465
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: playing the piano chords that would end up being our

466
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,719
Speaker 1: pre chorus, He's goods. He was playing a bomb bomb

467
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 1: bom and as soon as he did that, I then

468
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: heard this chord. This was an E flat minor nine.

469
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: Of course, really interesting about that chord is it doesn't

470
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: have a third in it. Now, usually the third in

471
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 1: a chord is what determines if it's sounds major or

472
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: sounds minor. If you omit that third entirely, you get

473
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: a chord that you're not quite sure how to feel about.

474
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: It feels tough and edgy and serious, but you know,

475
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 1: you don't know is this a happy feeling or a

476
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: sad feeling. It doesn't spell that out for you. And

477
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: building the song around a chord like that, to me,

478
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: was going to be the vehicle for Lizzo to give

479
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: us this kind of message. Why would an ambiguous chord

480
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 1: like that results in such a happy and positive and

481
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: confidence song. I think that the song is happy and

482
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: positive and confident, but I think the song also says, look,

483
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: we've been going through it, and we're still going through

484
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 1: There's a lot of challenges out here right now. And

485
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: I thought that having the song based around an instrumental

486
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: that just felt happy wouldn't be doing the song justice.

487
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: But also an instrumental that just felt dark wouldn't be

488
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: doing the song justice. So once we had that chord,

489
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: that's when I sat down and laid in the bass

490
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: groove and then the guitar group. But as soon as

491
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: that bass grouve hit Blake and I screamed, and we

492
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 1: knew we had a record and just from the instrumental,

493
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: you just know with some instrumentals, you've got a record.

494
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: And with that, we got Lizzo into the studio and

495
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: she brought her magic to it and wrote the song

496
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: that is what it is today. Did you just have

497
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: the groove or did you already have the chorus and

498
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: the bridge and all that? We had a pretty good

499
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,239
Speaker 1: idea of what this would sound like musically at the end,

500
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: we didn't have a bridge, but you know, we had

501
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 1: that verse groove, We had the pre course and then

502
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: coming back to the chorus, that was all laid down,

503
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: that was there, that was there and ready. But as

504
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: it always is with Lizzo, Lizzo is the only one

505
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: that can write Lizzo is ms. We had to have

506
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: her come through and to bring what she brings to

507
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: a song, and to be totally frank, getting the lyric

508
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 1: and melody right was the longest part. It was a

509
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: probably a couple of months of day in day out

510
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: talking about just getting that message that she wanted to convey,

511
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: that we wanted to convey. Just getting that just right.

512
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it almost seems like a simple message. You

513
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't think that that much would have gone into it,

514
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: But simplicity can sometimes be the hardest and most laborious

515
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: thing to get across. I have nothing to add to that, exactly.

516
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: That's exactly it. It's hard to get a simple message

517
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: just right, and that can take time. After all the

518
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: hard work and everything, we were really, really proud that

519
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: we landed it right where we wanted it to be

520
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: well and without it getting over complicated or over muddey,

521
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: considering everything that went into it completely. I mean, there

522
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: are so many alternate versions. I tried countless musical moments

523
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: this way and that. I mean the bridge. There's probably,

524
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, at least a handful of different fully produced

525
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: bridges that I made, And to land where it is,

526
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: we had to just continue being comfortable with Okay, it's

527
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: not good enough, cut it, cut it. I worked on

528
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: this new bridge for five days, five full days in

529
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: the studio. Cut it's not cutting it, you know. Is

530
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: it a totally different bridge or just a different arrangement? No,

531
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: a totally different bridge. I had days where I would

532
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: put together a whole different chord progression. Maybe a melody

533
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: could be like this, like a vocoder solo on it,

534
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: little base lick, let's try this drum fill and then

535
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: like go through with Blake and Lizz will be like

536
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: it's not good enough. Cut it. We did a lot

537
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: of that to get it right. How do you keep

538
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: perspective when you're working on something for that long and

539
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: going through so many different things? And yeah, I mean

540
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: that's probably the greatest sort of unspoken challenge of all

541
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: this is to keep track of what's good, what's sort

542
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: of like fundamentally good and exciting about something when you're

543
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: very close to it. And I think the way that

544
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: you know is you have to really really stay in

545
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: touch with your body and keep an eye on what

546
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: feels genuinely good. And when you can feel like you

547
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: have anxiety forming or things are feeling crunchy, I have

548
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: to do a lot of stepping back and listening to

549
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: it from the top and just listening to do is

550
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: this feel good? Does this make me want to move?

551
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: Or is it not? That feeling in the body is

552
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: the ultimate decider. Cook up a lot of things with

553
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: your brain, with your intentions, but it has to has

554
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: to go through the body. How do you get distance?

555
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: Do you just listen to something else, do you leave

556
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: it alone for a while? Oh my gosh, there's a

557
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: more serious answer to this question, but I'll give you

558
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: the silly answer, which is, there was a point in

559
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: time where I was waking up in the middle of

560
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: the night, and I would wake up and the song

561
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 1: was playing in my head like a verse we had

562
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,239
Speaker 1: been working on, or a bridge lyric or something like

563
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: literally looping, and I was like laying in bed one night,

564
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: It's like, looks like a palette cleanse I could do

565
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: just because if I can get this out of my

566
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: head for a second, I can get back to sleep,

567
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: or I can do whatever I gotta do. And the

568
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: thing that felt like the most far off thing that

569
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: I could imagine that would just like clear my head

570
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: was the opening guitar riff to My Own Worst Enemy

571
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 1: by lit by not not not not not not but

572
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: not not not not But if I'm laying that again't

573
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: sleep with about damn time looping in my head, I

574
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: would just go word, Yeah, is it true that you

575
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: guys did a d two twenties songs for this album

576
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: recorded in part and all? That? Is that true? And

577
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: where are those songs for the like looking under a

578
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: couch cushion? Yeah, I mean the web of songs I

579
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: myself did with her because I didn't, you know, I

580
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: didn't prouse all. Probably we did maybe twenty or thirty

581
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: all totaled. And I would say, when I think that

582
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: a song has potential, I'm going to take it as

583
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: far as I can towards completion. You know, sound great,

584
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: feel great, even if nobody's heard it yet. I want

585
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: to get it to that place when we play it

586
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: for our label partner at Atlantic, etcetera. But she is

587
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: the hardest working musician I've ever seen in the studio.

588
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 1: The countless days and hours of experimentation, trying things, being comfortable,

589
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: going back in and being like, let me see if

590
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: I can beat that verse, let me see if we

591
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: can beat that melody in the chorus. It's just so admirable,

592
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: so impressive to watch. So no, there are many many

593
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: more songs that didn't make the album. Will they be

594
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: heard someday, I don't know, Maybe she'll put out some

595
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: kind of box set or you know, Lizzo from the

596
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: Vault or something. But for right now, this was the

597
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: statement that made sense to her. Was this album, you know,

598
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 1: and it's a very cohesive and consistent album with you know,

599
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: every song seems to have a message, and those messages

600
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: that are largely positive and and you know, self helpful

601
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Was that something she was

602
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: going for. Oh, she's very aware of the impact the

603
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: power that her words have. Even before she had a

604
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: massive podium like she does now, she was always so

605
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: thoughtful about what's going to be the takeaway here. I

606
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: think that she thinks of we think of her music

607
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: as in large part as like a service, like two

608
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 1: fans and two people into the world, especially on this

609
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: album with so many people listening, we have like a

610
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: great song, and she would say, yeah, this is a

611
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: great song that the negativity and this is not something

612
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: I think the world needs right now. It's off. And

613
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: those kind of small decisions day by day lead up

614
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: to an album that that's why it feels cohesive. That's

615
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: why the messaging feels so strong and so specific going

616
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: through it is she's taking stock of that. Once a

617
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: day she has her songs and some kind of playlist

618
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: listening listening, and we're having those conversations on a daily basis.

619
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: Isn't it hard And I know it's not your record,

620
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: but isn't it hard to let go sometimes of something

621
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: you've created or worked on that you love or you

622
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: think is great, and the artist is just saying, no,

623
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't want that. Do you argue for those things

624
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: or you just like it's your thing, whatever you want? Oh,

625
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: I argue passionately for those things. Yeah. To be a

626
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: great collaborator, songwriter, record producer, I think you have to

627
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: put your full heart into it. You have to relate

628
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 1: on some level to the music. And naturally there's going

629
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: to be decisions where the artist, in my opinions, differ.

630
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: I know where to draw the line. The artist is

631
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: going to be the one singing this live for the

632
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: next two and a half years. It's not going to

633
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: be me. They're gonna be the one that has to

634
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: do interview after interview, answer questions about something what was

635
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: your inspiration for? So it's very important to let their

636
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: final decisions be sacred as such. But before the decision

637
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,240
Speaker 1: is final, I'm in there just trying to not only

638
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 1: be I think, an advocate for great records, but also

639
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: trying to encourage them to be brave, to be bold,

640
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: and to put out music that is going to serve them. Well,

641
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: do you think just from the artists you've worked with

642
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: and and I'm not talking about Lizard specifically. Are artists

643
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: often not the best judges of their own work? I

644
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: know that sounds like a really unfair statement, but a

645
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: lot of the time I hear about artists like saying no, no, no,

646
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: that song is stupid, No, don't don't play that song,

647
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: and everybody else says no, it's great, and they might

648
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: eventually cave and the song goes on to be a

649
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: global smash. Yeah. No. I mean, what's really interesting about

650
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 1: that is that there was a time when these sort

651
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: of I'm using air quotes from people who can't see me,

652
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: the the objectively good pop song sort of ruled over

653
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: all all these different stories and legends of artists, you know,

654
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: not wanting to put out, you know, the song that

655
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: was their best song, and then they put it out

656
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: and it goes crazy, you know. But we're in a

657
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: space today where the music is only as important as

658
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: the artists, as people, their fans connecting with them through

659
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: a variety of means on this really personal level. And

660
00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: people can i think, can subconsciously feel if an artist

661
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: loves the song they just put out, or if they're

662
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,439
Speaker 1: getting their arm twisted behind their back a little bit

663
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: so I think we're in an era now where artists

664
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: know what they love, they know what they're gonna bust

665
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: their ask for promotion wise, and that can now, I

666
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: believe outweigh sometimes the power of perfect lyric melody that

667
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: everyone at the label loves. We're seeing more and more

668
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 1: songs like that not perform how we thought they were

669
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: going to. And the strange sort of like Left of

670
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: Center record that no one in the building thought had

671
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: any potential, but the artist loved. They teased it on TikTok,

672
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: the fans felt the energy, and all of a sudden,

673
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: those are the songs actually racing up the charts. Is

674
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: what you're talking about, the fact that with social media

675
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: and artists being able to relate to their fans and

676
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: all that, it's almost like the music is a smaller

677
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: piece of the whole that it used to be. You

678
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's exactly what I'm saying. I

679
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: think the music has got to be great. It's not

680
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: like you can that it can take a step back.

681
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: But I do think that so much of the fan

682
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,439
Speaker 1: experience now is like rooting for their artists on more

683
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: of a human level, connecting with them on a human

684
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: level loving the music that comes with that. But part

685
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 1: of that is the connection. I think that's a lot

686
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: bigger than it used to be. You've got a remarkably

687
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: musically diverse background, enormously so unusually, So what do you

688
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 1: attribute that too. I would attribute that to the fact

689
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: that I love music. I have always loved music. I

690
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: was raised all kinds of different genres. I grew up

691
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: in the Bay Area where you have kids listening to

692
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: hip hop right next to the punkers and the metal heads,

693
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: and I grew up in the middle of all that.

694
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: You have Gilman Street scene happening. You also have this

695
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: massive Bay Area hip hop explosion from say Digital Underground

696
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: when I was very young to e forty and too Short.

697
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: That's all happening, and Vogue in Oakland. It's all happening

698
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: at the same time. I grew up with all that.

699
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's actually why I love to

700
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: work across the genre. I like to work across genre

701
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: because I like to meet different kinds of people. For me,

702
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: the music is sort of a vehicle, so to speak,

703
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: that just allows me to meet interesting people and to

704
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: learn about them and to make new friends. That's why

705
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: the job will never get old if I can continue

706
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 1: developing new relationships, meeting people, having them over to my

707
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 1: house party, going to their house party, Like, that's what

708
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: it's really about for me. Is there a history of

709
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: musical talent in your family. There's a lot of players

710
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: in my family. My great grandmother was a pianist, My

711
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: mom played a little growing up. I have an uncle

712
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: who's a pianist. We have a handful of musicians. But

713
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: I think, more so than that were really rubbed off

714
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: on me. On both sides of my families. We have

715
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people that were independently employed, started their

716
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: own businesses. It's the sort of entrepreneurial spirit and the

717
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: just go get her from both sides of my family.

718
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: I think has had a bigger impact on me than

719
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: necessarily the musical upbringing. Although my mom will kill me

720
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,399
Speaker 1: if I don't say. She raised me on all kinds

721
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: of incredible music as a child, Like what what made

722
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: the biggest impact When I really think about it. The

723
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: records that she loved were left of center with pop appeal,

724
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: and I think I've never thought about that until this

725
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 1: exact minute, because she showed me a lot of motown

726
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: and great soul and R and B records that were

727
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: more up the middle, but she also Oh I remember

728
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: her saying Eddie Kendricks, he was in the Temptations, but

729
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,760
Speaker 1: he did this proggy interesting stuff. After that, I was like, oh, really,

730
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: she was the first person to put me onto Yes

731
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: started with the Fragile album and then close to the Edge.

732
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: She scoff at the early Beatles, but put me onto

733
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: the late Beatles, you know what I'm saying, Like Houses

734
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: of the Holy all these records that are still have

735
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: pop appeal, but they have some innate challenge in them.

736
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: And especially what I was listening to NonStop growing up

737
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: with her was the sort of early eighties l A sound.

738
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I could recite the lyrics of every Steely

739
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: Damn album to front to back, and Michael McDonald Genesis,

740
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 1: the sort of end of the Peter Gabriel, early Phil

741
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 1: Collins Genesis. All that was just on repeat in my house.

742
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: So in a way, when I think about my musical

743
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: output and the things that just interested me at a

744
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: core level, there is a one to one can action

745
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: what she raised me up, I mean, and those are

746
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: very cool and very diverse tastes. I mean, for one's

747
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: parents was yeah, I left out. I know you originally

748
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: were signed as an artist to Epic I believe. Was

749
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: there a band that led up to that or yeah,

750
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: So it was only until up until abouteen or so.

751
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 1: You know, from the point when I was like sixteen

752
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: in high school, it was all bands. It was some

753
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: version of that band coming out of high school turned

754
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: into a more sort of like heavy duty prague punk

755
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: thing that I was doing. And then I was doing

756
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: that through my twenties because we actually with my high

757
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: school band had flirted with some major label deal offers

758
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: and stuff, and in high school, yeah, just out of

759
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: high school, we got a couple offers and we were

760
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: advised to turn them down, and that that band sort

761
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: of fell apart. So in my angst again I started

762
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: this sort of yeah, proggy or punk outfit in my twenties,

763
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,359
Speaker 1: and then as that was picking up steam on the

764
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: side to blow off steam rather, I started this kind

765
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: of experimental solo thing called Wallpaper, which was some sort

766
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: of cross between like you know, the postal service thing

767
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: that was happening, at least at how I fancied it.

768
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: Like the very first like Tom York Eraser album was

769
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: sort of this like glitchy, dark pop thing. But then

770
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,959
Speaker 1: I went back to college and I wanted to meet

771
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: girls and play at house party. So the wallpaper projects,

772
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, a little by little, start to have more

773
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: base in it. And this is also when the hype

774
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: thing is happening in the Bay Area, So it's the

775
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: resurgence of E forty and this like Barry hip hop

776
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: sound of the mid two thousand's is going crazy and

777
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: I loved it. Meanwhile, I'm also studying under an ai

778
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: and drummaster at UC Berkeley and learning about West African dance,

779
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: drumming and everything. So in the middle of all that,

780
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: Wallpaper starts to become this base heavy, party rocking thing,

781
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: and the satire gets a it confused, and it starts

782
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 1: to just become this like party rocking pop hip hop thing.

783
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: And that was what eventually brought me to Evog Records.

784
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 1: And you have been writing songs this whole time since

785
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: those early records. It looks like, at least on paper,

786
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: that around the same time you got signed as an artist,

787
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: your career as a songwriter started taking off. Accurate. Yeah,

788
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: so I got signed as an artist. It's funny because

789
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: I really didn't see that record deal coming. I was

790
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: started hitting a ceiling in the Bay Area. You know,

791
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 1: We're headlining is the biggest venues that we could, selling

792
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 1: them out. We were on the cover all the local

793
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 1: zines and stuff. And I was still working like a

794
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: dishwashing job at the Gap corporate cafe, you know, like,

795
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: and my band was like this popping band, and I

796
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: still was like broke. So I started coming to l

797
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: A once a month to see if I could put

798
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,240
Speaker 1: together a career, maybe as a producer songwriter for other artists.

799
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: So I'm in l A working on that career, but

800
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 1: that is my focus, and I'm keeping wallpaper going and

801
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: putting out songs and just trying to see if I

802
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: can just get a damn bite anywhere. And that's when

803
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: the Epic signing kind of comes out of the blue.

804
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: I met Tricky Stewart and l A Read on a

805
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: Friday at nine pm, and by Sunday at four pm,

806
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: I was signed to Epic Records. I mean it happened

807
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 1: in less than forty eight hours. And as that process

808
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: of making my first album for Epic and touring and

809
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: getting that first album out and not having the success

810
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 1: that I expected to come with it. It was in

811
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: that time period that process that I was like, I

812
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: gotta make sure I keep firing off a few things

813
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: for other people. So song for Far East Movement, song

814
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: for Celo, and then a song that I had made

815
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: intended for a Missy Elliott. Somebody on my team came

816
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: back to me a couple of months later and said, hey,

817
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: that song you made for Missy. Jason Darulo actually cut it.

818
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, interesting, and they're like, yeah,

819
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: it's cool. Check it out and was and they sent

820
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: it to me and it was talk dirty and I

821
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, this is good. We'll see what

822
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: happens with it. And that song coming out that changed

823
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: my life and it changed the course of my career.

824
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: You must have had a publisher working with you fairly

825
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: actively at the time. Who was it Sony at the time? Yes,

826
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: I was published by Boardwalk Entertainment Slash Sony, a TV

827
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: I believe from before the epic record deal happens. So

828
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: they were working on my behalf. I had a great

829
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: small family of people that were all cranking on my

830
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: behalf during this time, and I think it was really

831
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: formative for me because my whole career had to face

832
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of rejection. I was just clawing to get

833
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: any door open I couldn't. It was lucky that something clicked.

834
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,400
Speaker 1: What were the next big successes in the I guess

835
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 1: three years between Talk Dirty and meeting Lizzo in I

836
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: never thought of him sort of as a season of

837
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: my career, but they really were. So is when Talk

838
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: Dirty happens, you're in demand, right, Yes. Suddenly my manager,

839
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: who had been with me up until this point, he

840
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: passed away at the beginning of was diagnosed with leukemia,

841
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: and Larry Wade, who had been part of the company

842
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: that was publishing me, stepped into help with management. And

843
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: at the end of when Talk Dirty starts to look

844
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 1: like it might become a real hit, he says wisely, Hey,

845
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: let's take a break from the artist project for just

846
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: a second. You have doors flying open for you on

847
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: the side. We've never had that in your career. Let's

848
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: just see what we can get. Let's go back in

849
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: with Jason Derulo. I brought an instrumental that I had

850
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: made with a crazy traveling band of weirdos called Start

851
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: from Infinity. Brought an instrumental into drul Oh and we

852
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: made Wiggle only a few months after Talk Dirty started

853
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: to look like a hit. So we have talked Dirty

854
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: and Wiggle, and that's saying crew. We go to a

855
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: beach house in ox Nard and we write Fireball on

856
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: the roof of this beach house. I just met Pitbulls

857
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: manager at a b m I awards a week previous,

858
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: just marching his office and say we got pit Bulls

859
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 1: next single. Fireball goes for him. So we get a

860
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: quick little one to three punch, get a fifth Harmony

861
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 1: single off. But at this point, again to my manager

862
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 1: Larry Waite's credit, we're looking at the landscape and it's

863
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: people are starting to come to me asking for pop

864
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: songs with a big brass moment, Talk Dirty, saxophone, wiggle flute,

865
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: drop Fireball, saxophone, drop this fifth Harmony song, a big

866
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: trombone moment, and it's like, oh wow, I am actively

867
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:53,240
Speaker 1: burrowing myself into a pigeonhole. We gotta move. So Larry says,

868
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,280
Speaker 1: you know that band that you've been sharing festival stages

869
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: with twenty one pilots, we should see if you can

870
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: do a song or two for them. And I'm like, dude,

871
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 1: I'm down. I mean, I came up producing my band's

872
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: rock records, like, let's try it out. He also gets

873
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 1: an inquiry from a Colombian band called Bombastereo and it's like,

874
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,360
Speaker 1: you're just doing this and I was like, hell yeah.

875
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: So that to me is a moment where the thing

876
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: starts to really open up and change, and the career

877
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: that I have now really starts because the twenty one

878
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: Pilot's success. Also working with Icona Pop, these are Atlantic artists,

879
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 1: and the people from Atlantic bring me in. First. Brandon

880
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: Davis introduces me to Pete Gamberg, and then both of

881
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: them to Craig Calman, and they say, have you ever

882
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 1: thought about doing a joint venture deal with the label?

883
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought about staff producer role? And I

884
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: had just seen Tricky Stewart, who was kind of a

885
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: mentor to me, signed me to Epic. I had just

886
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 1: seen him leave Epic. He was a producer by trade.

887
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: He had a job in an office and my words

888
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: not his, but from the outside it seemed like he

889
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: wasn't as happy be in the office as he was

890
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 1: in the studio, and I was a little worried about that.

891
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: So when everybody was around me saying do you want

892
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: to do a joint venture. Do you want to have

893
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: a record label? I was pretty hesitant, and again great

894
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: manager Larry Wade, he said, give a shot. They're gonna

895
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: get a little check. All this means is that if

896
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: we find something great, we have to bring it to

897
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: them and no other major label. It's gonna last a

898
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 1: couple of years. If we don't find anything, no big deal.

899
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: And if we do great I was like, okay, fine.

900
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: Probably four or five months after we signed the deal,

901
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: my booking agent, guy named Matt Morgan, was now at

902
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: U t A. He was at CIA at the time.

903
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 1: He told Larry, I think you guys should check out

904
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: this artist that I'm booking. She's selling out small club,

905
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 1: she's amazing live. Her name is Lizzo. Larry flew out

906
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: to see her at Terminal five in New York opening

907
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: for Slayer Kenney. He was blown away and he said,

908
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: you gotta meet this girl. So she flew from Minneapolis

909
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: out to here for a couple of days. We got familiar.

910
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: In our first day, we made a song called Worship.

911
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: I took Worship home to my then probably fiance I

912
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: guess she was at that time, and one of my

913
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: best friends from here in l a. Bradley Herring, who's

914
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: now the President of My Life, and I played them

915
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: worship and said, we can't not sign this artist. Right

916
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: listen to her sing. That was the beginning with and

917
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: you guys just jumped right into collaborating as well. Yeah,

918
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we knew we had to make records. She

919
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: was getting those opportunities that money can't buy, being invited

920
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: to things, the press looks, felt like the world needed her,

921
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 1: wanted her. So we started working aggressively, just making the

922
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: best songs we can make. I mean, the second song

923
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 1: we made was good as hell, trying to get her sound,

924
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: trying to figure it all out. But from nineteen, even

925
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: though she was growing stead of that whole time she

926
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: and I had thought that it was going to happen faster.

927
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: There was a lot of roadblocks, a lot of challenges.

928
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 1: There was a lot of blood, sweat and tears in

929
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,879
Speaker 1: that time. But we just took this approach that we're

930
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 1: not going to as Brad puts it, we're not going

931
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: to cross over the artist. It's going to be a

932
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: spill over. She's gonna get so big in her lane

933
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: that the mainstream can't ignore her. And that's where she

934
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: was when Because I Love You her debut album came out.

935
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: But then we had that stroke of luck of the

936
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: Truth Hurts sink a week after the album came out,

937
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: which did not have Truth Hurts on it my new

938
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: because Truth Hurts had come out two years before. But

939
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: that spark was like a spark landing on a pile

940
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: of dried out plywood that we've been dumping gasoline on

941
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: for three years. What was this? Think someone great? But

942
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: the movie had this incredible scene in it where two

943
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: best friends are wrapping an entire verse of Truth Hurts

944
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 1: to each other in the kitchen. One like cracks open

945
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: like a forty or something on the table. It's amazing.

946
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: It perfectly captures the essence of Lizzo fans loving her music,

947
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 1: connecting over her music. It was a perfect sinc and

948
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:19,760
Speaker 1: in the early days of TikTok and old songs going viral,

949
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: it was kind of a special story because now we're

950
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: used to this song from just took off on TikTok

951
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 1: and now it's a hit, the band reunited. This kind

952
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: of thing happens a lot now, but it was a

953
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: novel thing when that happened with The Truth Third. So

954
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: it made a lot of noise. Do you remember how

955
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: the sink happened? Because that's the kind of think that

956
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: people dream of every minute of every day. All I

957
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 1: remember is that Larry, again, to his credit, had some

958
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: connection with introducing the director or somebody connected to the

959
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: director to Lizzo. Nice Life Recording Company, the company that

960
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: was forced into form to create this JV with Atlantic.

961
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: Sometimes people ask what do we do? Exactly what's our

962
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: company do? And for our independent artists, we oftentimes look

963
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: like a semi traditional independent record label, but in a

964
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: situation where we're like with Lizzo or another artist of ours,

965
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: the Maria's, where we're partnered with a huge company like

966
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: Atlantic Records that has literally one hundred times the amount

967
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 1: of staff, resources, everything that we have, people wonder what

968
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: we do, but things like that are exactly what we do.

969
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: We just keep an eye out for these interesting relationships,

970
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: these connections with people, these places, the plant seeds that

971
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: can sometimes become career catalysts, and a lot of them

972
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: move things along in these incremental ways. Sometimes something like

973
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: that happens, and look, Lizzo was gonna be the superstar

974
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: that she is today. Anyway, we had to get there.

975
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: It's not like had that not happened, she wouldn't be

976
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: where she is. We know where she was headed. But

977
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: our job as a nimble, creative, Strange company is to

978
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: be out there in the world and look for those

979
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: connections and try to make them well. Since we're talking

980
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: about the label, tell me more about some of the

981
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: artis Son. We have our Black Ship artists that we've

982
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 1: been speaking about, Lizzo that we're partnered with Atlantic Records on.

983
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: We also have another partnership with Atlantic Records for an

984
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 1: amazing band from l A called The Maria's. You could

985
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: call them an indie band, but they play more akin

986
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: to an R and B group. The singer Maria's Ardoius,

987
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,880
Speaker 1: sings in English and Spanish. When I first saw them live,

988
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: it felt closer to Shade than to indie rock. We

989
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: also have a partnership with Warner Records for an incredible

990
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: young artist named John Robert. I met John Robert when

991
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: he was sixteen, and the first time he played and

992
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: sang for me, I was blown away. And my first

993
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 1: question for him was who introduced you to Jeff Buckley

994
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: because it's just uncanny, And he was like, I don't

995
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. I don't know who that is,

996
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: and I said, I'm in yes please. We also have

997
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: artists that are signed to us independently, so there's no

998
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: major label involved. Junior Mesa a another sort of India

999
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: act that blurs the lines between psychedelia and soul. At Bakersfield,

1000
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: we have an artist named st. Panther who is a songwriter, producer, singer,

1001
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,200
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to describe it. Hip hop, soul,

1002
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: R and B. Even dabbles in reggatone. She's amazing from

1003
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: Orange County. We also have our latest signing to the label,

1004
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: an artist named is Stevie. She is from East l

1005
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: A County. She plays Cumbia. It's woven in with bits

1006
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: of Mexican regional reggaton. How do you manage all this? Label?

1007
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: Unpublishing company, Family Valley. I have a five year old

1008
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:04,120
Speaker 1: daughter in twin three year old boys. Oh so that's easy, yeah,

1009
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 1: and you're making all of these records. How do you

1010
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: manage this? The short answer is that I stick to

1011
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,560
Speaker 1: my routines. I listened to my body. I used to

1012
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,399
Speaker 1: say yes to anything that felt pretty good. I gotta

1013
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: say no to more things. I live and die by

1014
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: my routine. And as long as I stick to my

1015
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: routines and I stick to my hours and I'm saying

1016
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 1: no enough, then I can do all this and feel okay.

1017
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: But creativity doesn't follow routine. Like what happens if it's

1018
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: two in the morning and you get like a great

1019
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: hook or a great melody in your head, do you

1020
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:40,839
Speaker 1: just say nope, nope, I'll remember it because a lot

1021
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: of people, you have to chase those things and grab

1022
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: them when they happen. You do when they come, I

1023
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: chase them down. I also am a believer in the

1024
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: science that says that we're at our most creative when

1025
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,720
Speaker 1: we wake up and it goes downhill all day. I

1026
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: love to be in the studio at nine am with

1027
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 1: a giant coffee. You know. If I can convince the

1028
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: other songwriters and producers to be there with me, then too,

1029
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 1: that's great. And look, we made gold Digger Sound, the

1030
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: Leon Bridges album. That was an album where I was

1031
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: looking at what was going on with Leon, and I realized, Leon,

1032
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 1: we've never met nighttime. Leon. You always talking about going

1033
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 1: out after the studio and dinner was so and so

1034
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: and party. I've never been in the studio with this guy.

1035
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 1: So that was situation where we had to make a

1036
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: nighttime album where we started every session at eight and

1037
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 1: things got juicy at one or two. You do have those,

1038
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: and I'll never close myself off from those. But when

1039
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: I'm in the day to day of running a record label,

1040
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: running a publishing company, and producing and songwriting for other artists,

1041
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: if I can control it, I'll be on my routines.

1042
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: So what's coming up? What's up next that you can

1043
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: talk about, because I'm sure there's top secret products going

1044
00:57:54,800 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: on right now I am preparing for. We have a

1045
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 1: couple of artists on the label that feel poised to

1046
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: take a big, big, big step. So it's my job

1047
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: to be giving them as much TLC, as much time

1048
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: and energy, whether that's producing records or just listening and

1049
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: giving feedback and being an emotional support. I need to

1050
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: give all these unknown or virtually unknown artists on my

1051
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: label at the same time that I would give a superstar,

1052
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,760
Speaker 1: because that's the promise I make to them when we

1053
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 1: sign a deal together. Thanks for tuning into Variety Strictly Business.

1054
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Jessica Chavoi. Please make sure

1055
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: you subscribe to the podcast to hear future episodes featuring

1056
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: conversations with media movers and shakers. Also leave a review

1057
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and let us know how we're doing.

1058
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 1: Through the newly launched Songwriter Assistance Program, Sony Music Publishing

1059
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: offers wellness solutions for its entire global roster, including access

1060
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: to free, confidential counseling services. Sony Music Publishing songwriters and

1061
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: composers can connect with a dedicated, licensed therapist at no

1062
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: cost to address stress, anxiety, depression, grief, family and relationship matters,

1063
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: and more. With Songwriter Assistance, songwriters also have access to

1064
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: around the clock resources and support for daily life, from

1065
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 1: researching childcare options, locating a pet sitter, to budgeting a

1066
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: major life event. Songwriter Assistance has your back. If you

1067
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,919
Speaker 1: are Sony Music Publishing songwriter and would like to learn more,

1068
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: please visit Sony Music pub dot com