WEBVTT - Bonus: COVID-19 and the Legal System 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.920 Hey, everyone, it's your host Philip Holloway. Here. Before we 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:07.080 get into this episode and an acknowledgement of this time 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:11.720 of protest and unrest, I wanted to provide some resources 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:16.280 for people looking for ways to affect meaningful, positive change 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.840 in the criminal justice system. Here at Sworn Podcast, we 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:25.160 have worked closely with the California Innocence Project, the Georgia 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:31.040 Innocence Project, the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, and fam f a 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:37.839 m M formally Families Against Mandatory Minimum Sentencing. I can 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:43.360 personally attest that these organizations are doing incredible, much needed 0:00:43.400 --> 0:00:47.640 work on some of the problems of the criminal justice system. 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.000 I encourage you to take a look at them for 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:53.680 yourself and support them in any way that you can. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.000 At your local level, take a look at the track 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.800 records of officials in your area and decide whether or 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.000 not you support their decisions, and let your feelings be 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:06.679 known with your vote. That's the most direct line between 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.920 those officials and those that they serve. I really encourage 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.200 you to look closely at the judges, the sheriffs, the 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:18.600 district attorneys, and the city officials who directly impact how 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.520 justice is done for you and your community. If you 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.600 have any questions, our phone line is open at four 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:30.319 zero four for one zero zero four four one. Thank 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:36.240 you for listening. If you will place your left hand 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.520 on the Bible and raise your right hand, and please 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:44.880 repeat after me and I do titled action. Find the 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.240 defendant guilty of the crime. It makes no sense, it 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:52.080 doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.240 all took the same of the office. We are all 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.880 bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution, 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:00.960 to bear true faith and allegiance to the same. Didn't 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.600 you faithfully discharge the duties of our office? Do you 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.000 solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.440 give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.080 but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta and I 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:18.480 Heart Media, this is Swarn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.680 High Sworn listeners. We're coming to you today in between 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:29.679 seasons with a couple of special announcements. First off, we're 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.280 happy to announce that Sworn Season two will be released 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.400 wide and for free this summer right here wherever you 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.600 get your podcasts. There's going to be some stuff that 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:45.080 might sound familiar, but we've also got brand new episodes, 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.760 new experts, and new stories to tell. We hope you'll 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.520 join us in the meantime. I know my life as 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:56.360 a lawyer and as a citizen has been turned completely 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.200 upside down by the spread of the novel coronavirus or 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:04.600 COVID nineteen, and I know I'm not alone. We've put 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:08.200 together this special bonus episode to look at how this 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.800 pandemic has affected members of the legal system and the 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:16.680 justice community. We want to discuss what happens when matters 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.239 of life and liberty get put on pause. As you 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:24.760 might imagine, we recorded all of these interviews remotely, safely 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.360 over the phone or on the internet. Stay tuned to 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.840 the end of this episode to hear how COVID nineteen 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.800 affected me and my family in a very personal and 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:53.000 not so pleasant way. We spoke with a good friend 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.680 of mine, Michael Lascala. Michael is a criminal defense lawyer 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.840 here in the metropolitan Atlanta area, and like me, Mike 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.920 has seen a dramatic change in the way he does business. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.040 There's a joke in our business that you're either a 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.680 writer or you're a fighter. I'm not a writer. I'm 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:14.480 a fighter, so I go to court and we deal 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.200 with cases. Inside a court, I would be in court 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.560 anywhere from three to four days a week, whether it's 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.560 motions or arrangements or you know, trials or whatever it is. 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.600 I have not been a court now in six weeks, 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.760 and I haven't had any dry cleaners for the first 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:37.760 time in twenty years. When this COVID thing got serious, 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:41.440 my staff was pretty on top of it and tried 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.400 to do more phone interviews, and sometimes that work, sometimes 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.320 it doesn't. We pretty much shut it down. I've had 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.320 client fact This morning, I had a client say, hey, 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.159 I wanted my son to come see you. He's a client. 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:56.560 I said, I'm just not taking interviews right now. I'm 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.680 not doing anything face to face, and she completely understood. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.080 But ultimately I do want to get back to that. 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:04.960 I just don't know if it's safe at this point. 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.479 Certainly don't want to staff to have the anxiety with 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:13.680 people they don't know. I'm here at the office. I'm 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.080 here today and you know, working on cases that are 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.279 being prepped for trial, which probably will never go to 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.280 trial at least this year. But ultimately there's nothing else 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:24.800 to do, so you want to be productive. You want 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:28.400 to do something, so you just continue to work the case, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:34.880 and work the case, and work the case. We are 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.840 directed by the Georgia Supreme Court, Justice Melton, who is 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.120 the chief Judge, sent out in order, and he did 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.520 what was in the best interest of everyone, which is 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.920 to shut it down. In fact that now we're going 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:49.320 I think till I remember the day correctly, it's June 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:53.960 fift or something along those lines. We're effectively shut down 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.640 for three months. My clients called me at the time, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:58.240 is that what are we gonna do? You know, how 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.680 do we handle this? So there's nothing you can do. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:02.200 You know, not that we ever would do it, but 0:06:02.240 --> 0:06:04.320 you couldn't go in there complete guilty at all the charges. 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:13.640 Just there's nothing you can do. My practices in Fulton County, 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.600 and in Fulton County it is Grand Central Station any 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.800 day of the week. I mean, people packed onto elevators 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.599 and you may have to wait sometimes fifteen twenty minutes 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:25.800 to catch an elevator because it's too crowded you can't 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.800 get on. Those are the what I've dealt with for 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.160 twenty years of practice, and I don't see how that's 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.039 going to change unless you stagger it, but everybody wants 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.479 their day in court. I mean, you've got civil litigants, 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.680 you've got contract disputes, you've got divorces, you've got medical malpractice, 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.440 you've got arrayments, you've got first appearances, you've got motions, 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:48.599 you've got everything under the sun, and everybody's case is important. 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:52.839 How do you figure out who's gonna go first? Do 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.120 we start with the backlog? Do we start what's going 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.400 moving forward and figure out what to do with the backlog. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.840 We've got great leadership down there, and I think the 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.720 right thing will be done, but it's certainly gonna be 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:11.520 a headache for all the players involved. There's an assistant 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.480 district attorney, a deputy district attorney I was on the 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:15.960 phone with yesterday trying to work on a case that 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.640 we're supposed to have a zoom meeting in in two weeks, 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:20.960 and I said, you know, you're down there by yourself, 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.080 because there's three of us down there now. In Fulton 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.400 County District Attorney's office, they have a hundred and I 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:27.800 think it's like a hundred and twenty lawyers and there's 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:30.680 three of them down there. The problem, though, is they 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.680 don't have the five they may be able to look 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.400 at something electronically if I send it to them. What 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:39.480 district attorneys are always hasn't to make a firm commitment 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.120 about anything until they've reviewed the file diligently, and I 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:50.640 can't argue with that. I'm starting to see, more so 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.440 now in the last week than even the last five 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.640 previous weeks, is I've got a lot of solicitors and 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:58.800 a das that are starting to reach out and say, hey, 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:01.040 we need to start putting this on our radar. You know, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.200 everybody understands there's gonna be a tsunami of cases hitting 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.040 their desk, you know, unless they want to stay twenty 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.840 four hours a day, seven days week for the next 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.720 thirty six months. We got to start chipping away at 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.440 this block because they're not going anywhere. They're not going 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:17.679 to dismiss the cases, and I'm not leading to them. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.080 So we're gonna have to see what's the reasonable resolution 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.120 that we can get done under the circumstances. A deal 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.360 that I may not have gotten three months ago is 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:31.960 certainly gonna be on the table now. As a defense attorney, 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:35.880 Michael represents many clients who are currently in jail or 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.400 even in prison awaiting their day in court. I asked 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.160 him how those clients are doing during this crisis, and 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.720 whether any of them have gotten any special permission to 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:51.760 go home. We were successful in federal court to get 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:55.280 a released for an inmate just recently, so the motions 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.880 are being filed and the judges are giving them their attention. 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.560 It's just some cases. I understand the sire any of it. 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:02.880 They're just not comfortable doing it. I don't know if 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.400 I agree with it. I certainly understand it. We have 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.480 one that it's a very serious case that we've just 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.360 been unsuccessful in getting him out. In fact, he caught 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.880 the coronavirus while he's at the Fulton County jail. It's terrific. 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:19.640 It's him and another gentleman who also has the virus 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.480 stuck in there, and he's fearful for his life. When 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:26.120 you're in jail, you worry about things exponentially, and is 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.000 he going to get the treatment he deserves and all 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.880 those things. Now, he's a young guy and hopefully he'll 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.040 pull through, which I don't doubt he will, but certainly 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:36.040 there's some stress and some real fear amongst his family. 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.480 I used to get I don't know five ten phone 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.680 calls a day from different potential clients. We probably get 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.439 five to ten calls a week now, I mean, it 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:52.480 just doesn't exist. I was hired this morning on a case. 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.200 It's the first larger case I've gotten in at least 0:09:55.240 --> 0:10:00.200 two months. My law partner, Manny, he does primary late, 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.640 but in addition to state court, it doesn't many federal cases, 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.480 and so federal court, for whatever reason, seems to be 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.280 just ramped up and moving a lot quicker. In fact, 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.560 he was in federal court yesterday on a case in 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.480 Fulton or any other jurisdiction. Say, emotions day, you may 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.000 be first, you may be last, but you and the 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:19.839 other hundred people in the court room, they're gonna be 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.080 sitting around until your case is resolved. That's just the 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:26.080 way that it works because the numbers are so overwhelming 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:32.960 in state court versus federal court. We also discussed some 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.640 of the other day to day effects of this legal 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:41.640 shutdown that Michael and his clients are experiencing. There are 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.920 things that have collateral consequences, even if you haven't an 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:46.960 arrest on your record. There are sometimes that are job 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.520 implications or promotions and things of that nature. You need 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.839 a resolution. Everybody has the right to a jury trial. 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.280 This is one of the more regular calls in getting 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.360 right now, is I missed the traffic citations and warrant 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:02.880 from my arrest. I need to go down and clean 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:06.320 it out. No, you can't. There is literally nowhere to 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.120 go down and clean it out with. So someone may 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.679 have a suspended license and they can't go and get 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.160 a regular license because they have to clear up the case. 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.440 You may have immigration issues where oh, my immigration lawyer 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.240 needs a certified disposition of this case from ten years ago. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.880 You can't get it. The clerk's office isn't there to happen. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.120 Most of the functions of the court are real severe 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.160 as in like temporary protective orders so a spouse won't 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:41.800 get injured killed by their you know, delinquents. The bond 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.160 hearing's first appearances, I have a client right now that 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.120 has a d U I. But if they didn't take 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:49.480 him to jail yet, so as soon as this is over, 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:51.760 he has to go turn himself in then bond out. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.319 I asked him if he's seen an increase or decrease 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.840 in any of the types of cases that he's been 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:04.920 getting calls about Unfortunately, as everyone knows, um use of 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.800 illicit drugs, their alcohol is I have I've been hired 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.160 on a couple of d UI cases. I've got hired 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.960 on two domestic violence cases. You know, when you get 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.360 people cooped up for six weeks and their during day 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.160 drinking and all that, it's just a recipe for exaster. 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.320 It's wonderful coming to work right now because my commune 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.600 is about half there's no cars, there's no traffic. I 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.720 got a notice from USA A my insurance company, that 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.719 they're refunding five million dollars because there's nothing going on. 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.600 There's no accidents. So all this money that is polled 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:47.040 as being dispersed Geico returned over to billion Manny and 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.080 I have two associates and we've got two paralegals. So 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.760 we're a nice small firm. They've got kids, they've got mortgages, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.560 they've got car payments. We can't furlough anybody and not 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.240 pay them. I just don't think it's fair. But we 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.160 have not received deny p p P money. We've applied 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.600 for it. P p P money is the Paycheck Protection 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.960 Program loan that was made available to small businesses in 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:14.840 an effort to keep people employed while businesses down. Like Michael, 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.800 I run a small private practice and we have four employees, 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:23.280 including myself. Our business has seen a dramatic hit. We're 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.240 probably down from where we were this time last year. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.120 I had to tell you the process of applying for 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.920 P p P was a nightmare. When I'm recording this 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:41.360 in late May, the banks and government systems have pretty 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.440 well figured it out, but the application process in the 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.360 beginning was brutal and it was extremely frustrating. And I'm 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.560 speaking for not just me, but everybody else that I 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.960 know who went through this process. People are having to 0:13:56.040 --> 0:14:00.160 scramble to reprioritize what bills get paid and when they 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:05.200 get paid. People pay lawyers because, let's face it, they 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.920 are inspired or maybe afraid of what the judge might 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.480 do to them. And if the judge is not working 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.320 because of the courts were shut down, then people have 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:21.120 much less incentive to hire a lawyer. I have many 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.320 clients around payment plans. In front of the month comes up, 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.200 you send out a bill to them. The overwhelming majority 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.640 of them have asked for you know, hey, look and 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.080 I just skipped this month or skipped two months, and 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.600 you know, I like all of my clients, I really do. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.360 I'm really blessed with some really great people. How can 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:40.800 you say no to that? You know they're hurting. It's 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.040 not like they're gonna go and frivously waste this money 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:44.680 and go on a trip to Italy, because they're just 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.640 not gonna happen. But we are business and I have 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:49.520 a family I need to feed too, and that's why 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.720 I explained to clients. And I think if you're straightforward 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.200 with them and explain, hey, look, I know you're hurting, 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:55.840 but we're all hurting. We all have to make some 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.840 seting devices. Let's figure out that something reasonable. I think 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:01.680 that word reasonable is gonna be a key word for 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:06.080 the next twelve to eighteen months. What's reasonable under the circumstances. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:13.800 Of course, let's face it, an important part of the 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.200 legal system is timing inefficiency. For better or worse. There 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.800 are many cases to get through every single day, and 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.680 often the responsibility to move that business, as we say, 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.800 falls in the hands of the judges. I wanted to 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:33.360 hear more about how that responsibility is being handled and 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.840 what judges are doing and can do to keep the 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:43.400 justice system moving along. My name is Rob Leonard On, 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:47.360 a Superior Court judge in Cobb County, Georgia. We're a 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.400 court of general jurisdictions. We handle pretty much everything from 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.880 A to Z in both the civil and criminal world. 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.320 The only thing that you really don't see in Superior 0:15:56.360 --> 0:16:00.360 court is is probading, a will, a juvenile delinquency, pursued eatings, 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.160 unless really serious crime, those can come with Superior Court 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.760 and get charged as adults. Pretty much. If it can 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.600 be filed and cop canty, it can be filed in 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:13.600 Superior Court. For the most part, the average day before 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:17.240 this pandemic was about like it had been for the 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:21.080 last I don't know, several hundred years in the court system, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:23.960 court system dating all the way back to its origins. 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.560 I mean it was a public gathering. It was it 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.080 was entertainment way back when you know, before television and whatnot. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.240 Court proceedings, of course have to be open to the public, 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.320 and the way that we've always done things have required 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.120 large gatherings of people. For example, I was handling a 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.720 criminal calendar, I would have a list of cases that 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:48.040 would all get noticed appear in court on the same day. 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:50.880 So let's say it was fifty cases. I would have 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.200 I would have itty defendants, I would have fifty lawyers, 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.280 I would have the prosecutors, I would have some moms 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.320 and dads and whoever was there for support, not have 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.800 a full courtroom. And that's that's the way that we 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:08.240 did business, and almost all of it was in person. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.240 So this has really caused us to rethink the way 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:16.800 that we do business because we just can't keep people 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:22.040 safe and continue those practices. I asked Judge Robert Leonard 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.439 what official orders or directions he and other judges have 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:31.520 received and issued regarding holding or stopping court, as well 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.200 as what other decisions judges came to on their own. 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.159 There have been several orders system a couple that have 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:41.679 come out of the Supreme Court. There was one that 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.520 was issued here locally. We had a judges meeting, we 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.200 declared a juditional emergency in our circuit in the statewide 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.520 order went into effect, and it really has shut down 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.320 the common sense of things like we can't be having 0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:01.320 large calendars, we can't be forcing people into court in groups. 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.280 We're not ready and not going to be ready anytime 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:13.960 soon to summon jurors in for jury selection. Each judge 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:19.320 has the ability to go ahead and participate in video 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.639 conference or teleconference hearings. If you look at Chief Justice 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.960 Melton's order, the most recent one that came out gave 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:31.400 a little more encouragement to go ahead and adopt this technology. 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:33.440 So I think that we're going to see that it's 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:38.520 going to become more widespread. But I've been using Zoom heavily. 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.640 Now we're on Zoom right now recording this, and one 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.919 of the frustrations has been getting lawyers acclimated with the software, 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.000 getting some of the parties acclimated with the software. I'm 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:55.280 relatively young for a superior court judge, and the picking 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.480 up the technology hasn't been too big of a challenge. 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.199 But five days ago, I didn't know what Zoom was. 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.119 And now I'm recording screencast of the way that I 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.440 set up my settings, and I've recording screencasts of how 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.560 to conduct a hearing and how operate breakout rooms and 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.480 all of that kind of stuff, and I'm sharing with 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.679 colleagues on the bench to try to get everyone up 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:22.360 to speed. You might imagine across our state, we've got 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:26.320 judges that very widely in age, very widely with technology 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.719 that's been available to them, and I'm sure, We've got 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.239 judges in the state that don't know how to get 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:33.280 their email on their cell phone, and this is posing 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.960 a real problem. I feel lucky that I'm able to 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:40.080 conduct hearings. I've had court almost every day last week 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:44.240 and every day this week so far. I think there's 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:47.840 really essential staff right now is the support staff. Those 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.600 are the folks that opened the files, prepare of the discovery, 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:54.920 run the criminal history. I think that's the biggest need 0:19:55.040 --> 0:20:01.560 right now in order to get moving. One of the 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:07.160 hurdles that I find in conducting these virtual court sessions 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:11.560 that I've been doing is how do you satisfy public 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.840 access right. There's a constitutional right to an open court 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:18.440 room and public access to the proceedings, So I can't 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:20.639 just haul off and have court anytime I want to 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:25.040 without telling anymore. My solution to that has been twofold. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.200 I'll make a list of cases that I'm going to 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:29.720 hear virtually with the name of the case and the 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:34.560 case number. I'll put a link onto Twitter, and that 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.720 link will go to the YouTube channel that I livestream 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:43.840 to on the Zoom. I think these changes a good 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.800 many of them have the potential to stick long term. 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.159 You know, really it's on us that we let the 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.040 old system go on for as long as it did. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.919 But it worked, and there just wasn't any real reason 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.520 to fix what had had worked for so long. Like 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.359 the other day, I did an adoption on Zoom for 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.000 the first time, and let's say those people a lot 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:09.520 of trouble and expense. Usually everybody's got to be there, 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.399 and so they would have had to have purchased plane 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.560 tickets from Arizona in this particular case. And we just 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:17.879 got everybody on Zoom and did it that way and 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.600 it wasn't though, it wasn't a problem. So there are 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.240 efficiencies that you can find in it, and for that 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:28.840 I think it's very workable. While judges have been able 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.640 to hold some hearings and meetings online, the big question 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:38.040 regarding criminal cases is what about a defendants constitutional right 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.440 to a trial in front of a jury of their 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:46.200 peers or to confront witnesses against them. That means being 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:52.240 together in the same room. When are we going to 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:56.000 get to jury trials? Anybody's guess. My best guess is 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.879 that it's probably not something that can even be considered 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:02.240 until kids are back in school, Until you're going to 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.080 an autline of braves game, and I think we're going 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:09.600 to have a real hard time feeling comfortable summoning that 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:14.760 number of people to court and making them feel feel safe. 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:19.000 We have an obligation to to move the business, and 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.160 we have an obligation to make sure that the cases 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:26.080 are working their way through and nobody's rights to see 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:31.560 trial are being violated. This isn't really anyone's fault. You know. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:34.439 You can't say, well, this is the judge is balled, 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:36.399 or this is the state's balled or anything, or the 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.240 defendants balled or anything like that. It's just different, and 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.400 it takes special considerations to trying to figure out how 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:47.160 are we going to do that? And we might get 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.359 jury trial started back up sooner if we can figure 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.640 out a way to do jury selection virtually, like, for example, 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.879 if we were in old to check injurors, give them 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:01.640 an oath conducted jury selection on technology like the one 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.800 we're on now, then we could only have the twelves 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:09.920 that got picked. Report you can socially distanced twelve people, 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:12.280 you you really are going to struggle to do it 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.560 forty two or however many you know that you think 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.760 you need to pick your jury with If you could 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:23.800 think back to your days when you were a trial 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.840 lawyer and not a judge and you were picking a jury, 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:30.479 do you remember how important it was to you as 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.679 an advocate to be in the same physical space with 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.120 a prospective juror so that you could maybe get a 0:23:38.119 --> 0:23:43.040 close look at their body language or these intangible qualities 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.919 that comes only with face to face human interaction. Do 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:49.680 you remember that, and don't you think that's something that's 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:54.000 important for lawyers when they're litigating cases. It's a nice 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:58.720 leading question there, Mr Hallway. I will tell you I 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:02.919 remember you. If I was a lawyer and and I 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:05.520 was gonna have to depict a jury, I would much 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:08.440 prefer to be in a pot room with them where 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:11.000 I can see and they can see me, and I 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:13.639 can hear, and if anything goes wrong I can I 0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:15.400