Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's your host Philip Holloway. Here. Before we
Speaker 1: get into this episode and an acknowledgement of this time
Speaker 1: of protest and unrest, I wanted to provide some resources
Speaker 1: for people looking for ways to affect meaningful, positive change
Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system. Here at Sworn Podcast, we
Speaker 1: have worked closely with the California Innocence Project, the Georgia
Speaker 1: Innocence Project, the Pennsylvania Innocence Project, and fam f a
Speaker 1: m M formally Families Against Mandatory Minimum Sentencing. I can
Speaker 1: personally attest that these organizations are doing incredible, much needed
Speaker 1: work on some of the problems of the criminal justice system.
Speaker 1: I encourage you to take a look at them for
Speaker 1: yourself and support them in any way that you can.
Speaker 1: At your local level, take a look at the track
Speaker 1: records of officials in your area and decide whether or
Speaker 1: not you support their decisions, and let your feelings be
Speaker 1: known with your vote. That's the most direct line between
Speaker 1: those officials and those that they serve. I really encourage
Speaker 1: you to look closely at the judges, the sheriffs, the
Speaker 1: district attorneys, and the city officials who directly impact how
Speaker 1: justice is done for you and your community. If you
Speaker 1: have any questions, our phone line is open at four
Speaker 1: zero four for one zero zero four four one. Thank
Speaker 1: you for listening. If you will place your left hand
Speaker 1: on the Bible and raise your right hand, and please
Speaker 1: repeat after me and I do titled action. Find the
Speaker 1: defendant guilty of the crime. It makes no sense, it
Speaker 1: doesn't fit. If it doesn't fit, you must equit. We
Speaker 1: all took the same of the office. We are all
Speaker 1: bound by that common commitment to support and defend the Constitution,
Speaker 1: to bear true faith and allegiance to the same. Didn't
Speaker 1: you faithfully discharge the duties of our office? Do you
Speaker 1: solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to
Speaker 1: give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
Speaker 1: but the truth. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta and I
Speaker 1: Heart Media, this is Swarn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway.
Speaker 1: High Sworn listeners. We're coming to you today in between
Speaker 1: seasons with a couple of special announcements. First off, we're
Speaker 1: happy to announce that Sworn Season two will be released
Speaker 1: wide and for free this summer right here wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. There's going to be some stuff that
Speaker 1: might sound familiar, but we've also got brand new episodes,
Speaker 1: new experts, and new stories to tell. We hope you'll
Speaker 1: join us in the meantime. I know my life as
Speaker 1: a lawyer and as a citizen has been turned completely
Speaker 1: upside down by the spread of the novel coronavirus or
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen, and I know I'm not alone. We've put
Speaker 1: together this special bonus episode to look at how this
Speaker 1: pandemic has affected members of the legal system and the
Speaker 1: justice community. We want to discuss what happens when matters
Speaker 1: of life and liberty get put on pause. As you
Speaker 1: might imagine, we recorded all of these interviews remotely, safely
Speaker 1: over the phone or on the internet. Stay tuned to
Speaker 1: the end of this episode to hear how COVID nineteen
Speaker 1: affected me and my family in a very personal and
Speaker 1: not so pleasant way. We spoke with a good friend
Speaker 1: of mine, Michael Lascala. Michael is a criminal defense lawyer
Speaker 1: here in the metropolitan Atlanta area, and like me, Mike
Speaker 1: has seen a dramatic change in the way he does business.
Speaker 1: There's a joke in our business that you're either a
Speaker 1: writer or you're a fighter. I'm not a writer. I'm
Speaker 1: a fighter, so I go to court and we deal
Speaker 1: with cases. Inside a court, I would be in court
Speaker 1: anywhere from three to four days a week, whether it's
Speaker 1: motions or arrangements or you know, trials or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I have not been a court now in six weeks,
Speaker 1: and I haven't had any dry cleaners for the first
Speaker 1: time in twenty years. When this COVID thing got serious,
Speaker 1: my staff was pretty on top of it and tried
Speaker 1: to do more phone interviews, and sometimes that work, sometimes
Speaker 1: it doesn't. We pretty much shut it down. I've had
Speaker 1: client fact This morning, I had a client say, hey,
Speaker 1: I wanted my son to come see you. He's a client.
Speaker 1: I said, I'm just not taking interviews right now. I'm
Speaker 1: not doing anything face to face, and she completely understood.
Speaker 1: But ultimately I do want to get back to that.
Speaker 1: I just don't know if it's safe at this point.
Speaker 1: Certainly don't want to staff to have the anxiety with
Speaker 1: people they don't know. I'm here at the office. I'm
Speaker 1: here today and you know, working on cases that are
Speaker 1: being prepped for trial, which probably will never go to
Speaker 1: trial at least this year. But ultimately there's nothing else
Speaker 1: to do, so you want to be productive. You want
Speaker 1: to do something, so you just continue to work the case,
Speaker 1: and work the case, and work the case. We are
Speaker 1: directed by the Georgia Supreme Court, Justice Melton, who is
Speaker 1: the chief Judge, sent out in order, and he did
Speaker 1: what was in the best interest of everyone, which is
Speaker 1: to shut it down. In fact that now we're going
Speaker 1: I think till I remember the day correctly, it's June
Speaker 1: fift or something along those lines. We're effectively shut down
Speaker 1: for three months. My clients called me at the time,
Speaker 1: is that what are we gonna do? You know, how
Speaker 1: do we handle this? So there's nothing you can do.
Speaker 1: You know, not that we ever would do it, but
Speaker 1: you couldn't go in there complete guilty at all the charges.
Speaker 1: Just there's nothing you can do. My practices in Fulton County,
Speaker 1: and in Fulton County it is Grand Central Station any
Speaker 1: day of the week. I mean, people packed onto elevators
Speaker 1: and you may have to wait sometimes fifteen twenty minutes
Speaker 1: to catch an elevator because it's too crowded you can't
Speaker 1: get on. Those are the what I've dealt with for
Speaker 1: twenty years of practice, and I don't see how that's
Speaker 1: going to change unless you stagger it, but everybody wants
Speaker 1: their day in court. I mean, you've got civil litigants,
Speaker 1: you've got contract disputes, you've got divorces, you've got medical malpractice,
Speaker 1: you've got arrayments, you've got first appearances, you've got motions,
Speaker 1: you've got everything under the sun, and everybody's case is important.
Speaker 1: How do you figure out who's gonna go first? Do
Speaker 1: we start with the backlog? Do we start what's going
Speaker 1: moving forward and figure out what to do with the backlog.
Speaker 1: We've got great leadership down there, and I think the
Speaker 1: right thing will be done, but it's certainly gonna be
Speaker 1: a headache for all the players involved. There's an assistant
Speaker 1: district attorney, a deputy district attorney I was on the
Speaker 1: phone with yesterday trying to work on a case that
Speaker 1: we're supposed to have a zoom meeting in in two weeks,
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, you're down there by yourself,
Speaker 1: because there's three of us down there now. In Fulton
Speaker 1: County District Attorney's office, they have a hundred and I
Speaker 1: think it's like a hundred and twenty lawyers and there's
Speaker 1: three of them down there. The problem, though, is they
Speaker 1: don't have the five they may be able to look
Speaker 1: at something electronically if I send it to them. What
Speaker 1: district attorneys are always hasn't to make a firm commitment
Speaker 1: about anything until they've reviewed the file diligently, and I
Speaker 1: can't argue with that. I'm starting to see, more so
Speaker 1: now in the last week than even the last five
Speaker 1: previous weeks, is I've got a lot of solicitors and
Speaker 1: a das that are starting to reach out and say, hey,
Speaker 1: we need to start putting this on our radar. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody understands there's gonna be a tsunami of cases hitting
Speaker 1: their desk, you know, unless they want to stay twenty
Speaker 1: four hours a day, seven days week for the next
Speaker 1: thirty six months. We got to start chipping away at
Speaker 1: this block because they're not going anywhere. They're not going
Speaker 1: to dismiss the cases, and I'm not leading to them.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna have to see what's the reasonable resolution
Speaker 1: that we can get done under the circumstances. A deal
Speaker 1: that I may not have gotten three months ago is
Speaker 1: certainly gonna be on the table now. As a defense attorney,
Speaker 1: Michael represents many clients who are currently in jail or
Speaker 1: even in prison awaiting their day in court. I asked
Speaker 1: him how those clients are doing during this crisis, and
Speaker 1: whether any of them have gotten any special permission to
Speaker 1: go home. We were successful in federal court to get
Speaker 1: a released for an inmate just recently, so the motions
Speaker 1: are being filed and the judges are giving them their attention.
Speaker 1: It's just some cases. I understand the sire any of it.
Speaker 1: They're just not comfortable doing it. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I agree with it. I certainly understand it. We have
Speaker 1: one that it's a very serious case that we've just
Speaker 1: been unsuccessful in getting him out. In fact, he caught
Speaker 1: the coronavirus while he's at the Fulton County jail. It's terrific.
Speaker 1: It's him and another gentleman who also has the virus
Speaker 1: stuck in there, and he's fearful for his life. When
Speaker 1: you're in jail, you worry about things exponentially, and is
Speaker 1: he going to get the treatment he deserves and all
Speaker 1: those things. Now, he's a young guy and hopefully he'll
Speaker 1: pull through, which I don't doubt he will, but certainly
Speaker 1: there's some stress and some real fear amongst his family.
Speaker 1: I used to get I don't know five ten phone
Speaker 1: calls a day from different potential clients. We probably get
Speaker 1: five to ten calls a week now, I mean, it
Speaker 1: just doesn't exist. I was hired this morning on a case.
Speaker 1: It's the first larger case I've gotten in at least
Speaker 1: two months. My law partner, Manny, he does primary late,
Speaker 1: but in addition to state court, it doesn't many federal cases,
Speaker 1: and so federal court, for whatever reason, seems to be
Speaker 1: just ramped up and moving a lot quicker. In fact,
Speaker 1: he was in federal court yesterday on a case in
Speaker 1: Fulton or any other jurisdiction. Say, emotions day, you may
Speaker 1: be first, you may be last, but you and the
Speaker 1: other hundred people in the court room, they're gonna be
Speaker 1: sitting around until your case is resolved. That's just the
Speaker 1: way that it works because the numbers are so overwhelming
Speaker 1: in state court versus federal court. We also discussed some
Speaker 1: of the other day to day effects of this legal
Speaker 1: shutdown that Michael and his clients are experiencing. There are
Speaker 1: things that have collateral consequences, even if you haven't an
Speaker 1: arrest on your record. There are sometimes that are job
Speaker 1: implications or promotions and things of that nature. You need
Speaker 1: a resolution. Everybody has the right to a jury trial.
Speaker 1: This is one of the more regular calls in getting
Speaker 1: right now, is I missed the traffic citations and warrant
Speaker 1: from my arrest. I need to go down and clean
Speaker 1: it out. No, you can't. There is literally nowhere to
Speaker 1: go down and clean it out with. So someone may
Speaker 1: have a suspended license and they can't go and get
Speaker 1: a regular license because they have to clear up the case.
Speaker 1: You may have immigration issues where oh, my immigration lawyer
Speaker 1: needs a certified disposition of this case from ten years ago.
Speaker 1: You can't get it. The clerk's office isn't there to happen.
Speaker 1: Most of the functions of the court are real severe
Speaker 1: as in like temporary protective orders so a spouse won't
Speaker 1: get injured killed by their you know, delinquents. The bond
Speaker 1: hearing's first appearances, I have a client right now that
Speaker 1: has a d U I. But if they didn't take
Speaker 1: him to jail yet, so as soon as this is over,
Speaker 1: he has to go turn himself in then bond out.
Speaker 1: I asked him if he's seen an increase or decrease
Speaker 1: in any of the types of cases that he's been
Speaker 1: getting calls about Unfortunately, as everyone knows, um use of
Speaker 1: illicit drugs, their alcohol is I have I've been hired
Speaker 1: on a couple of d UI cases. I've got hired
Speaker 1: on two domestic violence cases. You know, when you get
Speaker 1: people cooped up for six weeks and their during day
Speaker 1: drinking and all that, it's just a recipe for exaster.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful coming to work right now because my commune
Speaker 1: is about half there's no cars, there's no traffic. I
Speaker 1: got a notice from USA A my insurance company, that
Speaker 1: they're refunding five million dollars because there's nothing going on.
Speaker 1: There's no accidents. So all this money that is polled
Speaker 1: as being dispersed Geico returned over to billion Manny and
Speaker 1: I have two associates and we've got two paralegals. So
Speaker 1: we're a nice small firm. They've got kids, they've got mortgages,
Speaker 1: they've got car payments. We can't furlough anybody and not
Speaker 1: pay them. I just don't think it's fair. But we
Speaker 1: have not received deny p p P money. We've applied
Speaker 1: for it. P p P money is the Paycheck Protection
Speaker 1: Program loan that was made available to small businesses in
Speaker 1: an effort to keep people employed while businesses down. Like Michael,
Speaker 1: I run a small private practice and we have four employees,
Speaker 1: including myself. Our business has seen a dramatic hit. We're
Speaker 1: probably down from where we were this time last year.
Speaker 1: I had to tell you the process of applying for
Speaker 1: P p P was a nightmare. When I'm recording this
Speaker 1: in late May, the banks and government systems have pretty
Speaker 1: well figured it out, but the application process in the
Speaker 1: beginning was brutal and it was extremely frustrating. And I'm
Speaker 1: speaking for not just me, but everybody else that I
Speaker 1: know who went through this process. People are having to
Speaker 1: scramble to reprioritize what bills get paid and when they
Speaker 1: get paid. People pay lawyers because, let's face it, they
Speaker 1: are inspired or maybe afraid of what the judge might
Speaker 1: do to them. And if the judge is not working
Speaker 1: because of the courts were shut down, then people have
Speaker 1: much less incentive to hire a lawyer. I have many
Speaker 1: clients around payment plans. In front of the month comes up,
Speaker 1: you send out a bill to them. The overwhelming majority
Speaker 1: of them have asked for you know, hey, look and
Speaker 1: I just skipped this month or skipped two months, and
Speaker 1: you know, I like all of my clients, I really do.
Speaker 1: I'm really blessed with some really great people. How can
Speaker 1: you say no to that? You know they're hurting. It's
Speaker 1: not like they're gonna go and frivously waste this money
Speaker 1: and go on a trip to Italy, because they're just
Speaker 1: not gonna happen. But we are business and I have
Speaker 1: a family I need to feed too, and that's why
Speaker 1: I explained to clients. And I think if you're straightforward
Speaker 1: with them and explain, hey, look, I know you're hurting,
Speaker 1: but we're all hurting. We all have to make some
Speaker 1: seting devices. Let's figure out that something reasonable. I think
Speaker 1: that word reasonable is gonna be a key word for
Speaker 1: the next twelve to eighteen months. What's reasonable under the circumstances.
Speaker 1: Of course, let's face it, an important part of the
Speaker 1: legal system is timing inefficiency. For better or worse. There
Speaker 1: are many cases to get through every single day, and
Speaker 1: often the responsibility to move that business, as we say,
Speaker 1: falls in the hands of the judges. I wanted to
Speaker 1: hear more about how that responsibility is being handled and
Speaker 1: what judges are doing and can do to keep the
Speaker 1: justice system moving along. My name is Rob Leonard On,
Speaker 1: a Superior Court judge in Cobb County, Georgia. We're a
Speaker 1: court of general jurisdictions. We handle pretty much everything from
Speaker 1: A to Z in both the civil and criminal world.
Speaker 1: The only thing that you really don't see in Superior
Speaker 1: court is is probading, a will, a juvenile delinquency, pursued eatings,
Speaker 1: unless really serious crime, those can come with Superior Court
Speaker 1: and get charged as adults. Pretty much. If it can
Speaker 1: be filed and cop canty, it can be filed in
Speaker 1: Superior Court. For the most part, the average day before
Speaker 1: this pandemic was about like it had been for the
Speaker 1: last I don't know, several hundred years in the court system,
Speaker 1: court system dating all the way back to its origins.
Speaker 1: I mean it was a public gathering. It was it
Speaker 1: was entertainment way back when you know, before television and whatnot.
Speaker 1: Court proceedings, of course have to be open to the public,
Speaker 1: and the way that we've always done things have required
Speaker 1: large gatherings of people. For example, I was handling a
Speaker 1: criminal calendar, I would have a list of cases that
Speaker 1: would all get noticed appear in court on the same day.
Speaker 1: So let's say it was fifty cases. I would have
Speaker 1: I would have itty defendants, I would have fifty lawyers,
Speaker 1: I would have the prosecutors, I would have some moms
Speaker 1: and dads and whoever was there for support, not have
Speaker 1: a full courtroom. And that's that's the way that we
Speaker 1: did business, and almost all of it was in person.
Speaker 1: So this has really caused us to rethink the way
Speaker 1: that we do business because we just can't keep people
Speaker 1: safe and continue those practices. I asked Judge Robert Leonard
Speaker 1: what official orders or directions he and other judges have
Speaker 1: received and issued regarding holding or stopping court, as well
Speaker 1: as what other decisions judges came to on their own.
Speaker 1: There have been several orders system a couple that have
Speaker 1: come out of the Supreme Court. There was one that
Speaker 1: was issued here locally. We had a judges meeting, we
Speaker 1: declared a juditional emergency in our circuit in the statewide
Speaker 1: order went into effect, and it really has shut down
Speaker 1: the common sense of things like we can't be having
Speaker 1: large calendars, we can't be forcing people into court in groups.
Speaker 1: We're not ready and not going to be ready anytime
Speaker 1: soon to summon jurors in for jury selection. Each judge
Speaker 1: has the ability to go ahead and participate in video
Speaker 1: conference or teleconference hearings. If you look at Chief Justice
Speaker 1: Melton's order, the most recent one that came out gave
Speaker 1: a little more encouragement to go ahead and adopt this technology.
Speaker 1: So I think that we're going to see that it's
Speaker 1: going to become more widespread. But I've been using Zoom heavily.
Speaker 1: Now we're on Zoom right now recording this, and one
Speaker 1: of the frustrations has been getting lawyers acclimated with the software,
Speaker 1: getting some of the parties acclimated with the software. I'm
Speaker 1: relatively young for a superior court judge, and the picking
Speaker 1: up the technology hasn't been too big of a challenge.
Speaker 1: But five days ago, I didn't know what Zoom was.
Speaker 1: And now I'm recording screencast of the way that I
Speaker 1: set up my settings, and I've recording screencasts of how
Speaker 1: to conduct a hearing and how operate breakout rooms and
Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff, and I'm sharing with
Speaker 1: colleagues on the bench to try to get everyone up
Speaker 1: to speed. You might imagine across our state, we've got
Speaker 1: judges that very widely in age, very widely with technology
Speaker 1: that's been available to them, and I'm sure, We've got
Speaker 1: judges in the state that don't know how to get
Speaker 1: their email on their cell phone, and this is posing
Speaker 1: a real problem. I feel lucky that I'm able to
Speaker 1: conduct hearings. I've had court almost every day last week
Speaker 1: and every day this week so far. I think there's
Speaker 1: really essential staff right now is the support staff. Those
Speaker 1: are the folks that opened the files, prepare of the discovery,
Speaker 1: run the criminal history. I think that's the biggest need
Speaker 1: right now in order to get moving. One of the
Speaker 1: hurdles that I find in conducting these virtual court sessions
Speaker 1: that I've been doing is how do you satisfy public
Speaker 1: access right. There's a constitutional right to an open court
Speaker 1: room and public access to the proceedings, So I can't
Speaker 1: just haul off and have court anytime I want to
Speaker 1: without telling anymore. My solution to that has been twofold.
Speaker 1: I'll make a list of cases that I'm going to
Speaker 1: hear virtually with the name of the case and the
Speaker 1: case number. I'll put a link onto Twitter, and that
Speaker 1: link will go to the YouTube channel that I livestream
Speaker 1: to on the Zoom. I think these changes a good
Speaker 1: many of them have the potential to stick long term.
Speaker 1: You know, really it's on us that we let the
Speaker 1: old system go on for as long as it did.
Speaker 1: But it worked, and there just wasn't any real reason
Speaker 1: to fix what had had worked for so long. Like
Speaker 1: the other day, I did an adoption on Zoom for
Speaker 1: the first time, and let's say those people a lot
Speaker 1: of trouble and expense. Usually everybody's got to be there,
Speaker 1: and so they would have had to have purchased plane
Speaker 1: tickets from Arizona in this particular case. And we just
Speaker 1: got everybody on Zoom and did it that way and
Speaker 1: it wasn't though, it wasn't a problem. So there are
Speaker 1: efficiencies that you can find in it, and for that
Speaker 1: I think it's very workable. While judges have been able
Speaker 1: to hold some hearings and meetings online, the big question
Speaker 1: regarding criminal cases is what about a defendants constitutional right
Speaker 1: to a trial in front of a jury of their
Speaker 1: peers or to confront witnesses against them. That means being
Speaker 1: together in the same room. When are we going to
Speaker 1: get to jury trials? Anybody's guess. My best guess is
Speaker 1: that it's probably not something that can even be considered
Speaker 1: until kids are back in school, Until you're going to
Speaker 1: an autline of braves game, and I think we're going
Speaker 1: to have a real hard time feeling comfortable summoning that
Speaker 1: number of people to court and making them feel feel safe.
Speaker 1: We have an obligation to to move the business, and
Speaker 1: we have an obligation to make sure that the cases
Speaker 1: are working their way through and nobody's rights to see
Speaker 1: trial are being violated. This isn't really anyone's fault. You know.
Speaker 1: You can't say, well, this is the judge is balled,
Speaker 1: or this is the state's balled or anything, or the
Speaker 1: defendants balled or anything like that. It's just different, and
Speaker 1: it takes special considerations to trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: are we going to do that? And we might get
Speaker 1: jury trial started back up sooner if we can figure
Speaker 1: out a way to do jury selection virtually, like, for example,
Speaker 1: if we were in old to check injurors, give them
Speaker 1: an oath conducted jury selection on technology like the one
Speaker 1: we're on now, then we could only have the twelves
Speaker 1: that got picked. Report you can socially distanced twelve people,
Speaker 1: you you really are going to struggle to do it
Speaker 1: forty two or however many you know that you think
Speaker 1: you need to pick your jury with If you could
Speaker 1: think back to your days when you were a trial
Speaker 1: lawyer and not a judge and you were picking a jury,
Speaker 1: do you remember how important it was to you as
Speaker 1: an advocate to be in the same physical space with
Speaker 1: a prospective juror so that you could maybe get a
Speaker 1: close look at their body language or these intangible qualities
Speaker 1: that comes only with face to face human interaction. Do
Speaker 1: you remember that, and don't you think that's something that's
Speaker 1: important for lawyers when they're litigating cases. It's a nice
Speaker 1: leading question there, Mr Hallway. I will tell you I
Speaker 1: remember you. If I was a lawyer and and I
Speaker 1: was gonna have to depict a jury, I would much
Speaker 1: prefer to be in a pot room with them where
Speaker 1: I can see and they can see me, and I
Speaker 1: can hear, and if anything goes wrong I can I
Speaker 1: can fix it right then and there I can make
Speaker 1: a record of it. You know, in person is kind
Speaker 1: of be preferable always. And there are going to be
Speaker 1: cases where say, okay, uh, Mr Holloway, I can get
Speaker 1: your case tried in if we're able to do virtual
Speaker 1: jury selection, I can find you something this fall. If
Speaker 1: we can't, I don't know when it's going to be.
Speaker 1: I can tell you we're coming up with a number
Speaker 1: of ideas and there will be a plan a Plan B,
Speaker 1: and a Plan C and probably a D. I don't know.
Speaker 1: We'll just work through them. And those that we can't
Speaker 1: because of an objection, or maybe it's a kind of
Speaker 1: case that just doesn't lend itself to being handled the
Speaker 1: virtual passion, and that might just be something that has
Speaker 1: to wait a walk. One thing that this legal shutdown
Speaker 1: has really pointed out to me and driven home is
Speaker 1: how many businesses really do depend on the courthouse being open.
Speaker 1: When you drive by the courthouse in any town, even
Speaker 1: where I live, I see restaurants, I see parking lots,
Speaker 1: and I see stores that depend on the courthouse crowd
Speaker 1: for all sorts of things. These businesses are hurting and
Speaker 1: some of them are shutting down some forever. One of
Speaker 1: the industries impacted like this is the bail bonding industry.
Speaker 1: We spoke with Shitara Harper, who works at a Georgia
Speaker 1: bail bonding office. We wanted to see how their business
Speaker 1: has been changed by the pandemic. My name is Satyra Harper.
Speaker 1: I am the administrator slash paralegal for a bill bonds
Speaker 1: agent see here in Cobb County. On a normal day,
Speaker 1: I am responsible for basically keeping the wheels turning in
Speaker 1: my office, so like I am responsible for all of
Speaker 1: our case management, all of our files. In bail bonds,
Speaker 1: we have bond forfeit your hearings, so I'm in court
Speaker 1: a lot. So a lot of my mornings are going
Speaker 1: down to the courthouse for the bond forfeit your hearings,
Speaker 1: in putting files, drafting motions to send out to attorneys,
Speaker 1: and things like that. So a bill bond's agency is
Speaker 1: basically like a company that will loan a defendant in
Speaker 1: their family the money to get out of jail. Once
Speaker 1: we know that amount, then you know, we speak to
Speaker 1: the family um and they pay us a percentage and
Speaker 1: then we post the full amount of the bond in
Speaker 1: order for that person to get out of jail, and
Speaker 1: once they've completed their case, we get our money back.
Speaker 1: People generally like to lay their eyes on us, especially
Speaker 1: when they're spending large sums of money. And then also
Speaker 1: we are in close proximity to the jail, so a
Speaker 1: lot of the time the family members are at the
Speaker 1: jail or the person has just gotten out of jail
Speaker 1: and we have documentation and things like that that we
Speaker 1: need for them to sign. So we do have a
Speaker 1: lot of foot traffic in our office under normal circumstances.
Speaker 1: I can't honestly say the exact moment that I knew
Speaker 1: that it would be a problem. I believe that when
Speaker 1: we all started being afraid for our health is when
Speaker 1: we started making changes. We used to have this large
Speaker 1: meeting table in the front room. Now we've removed that.
Speaker 1: We brought in more masks and gloves and more hand
Speaker 1: sanitizer and things like that. There was the creation of
Speaker 1: this digital document platform that we use now, and so
Speaker 1: instead of having people come in, you know, we send
Speaker 1: out the forms and they don't ever have to come
Speaker 1: into the office. So I think that it started with
Speaker 1: us starting to fear for our safety. The courts shut
Speaker 1: down probably I think March sixteenth or seventeen. I do
Speaker 1: know that people are still working in the courthouse, but
Speaker 1: you cannot just walk into the courthouse as it was before.
Speaker 1: They're certainly not holding any of the hearings that I
Speaker 1: would attend. So the bond forfeit your hearings have now
Speaker 1: been shut down until it's you know, safe for the
Speaker 1: courts to reopen. It has been challenging, but you know,
Speaker 1: we still have been able to make it work. When
Speaker 1: the government pushed out what was considered essential business, we
Speaker 1: were in fact on the list. I guess the idea
Speaker 1: kind of was like, if we have to keep the
Speaker 1: jails open, if we have to keep the police officers
Speaker 1: out there, we owe these people are right to get
Speaker 1: out of jail should they be arrested. You know, I
Speaker 1: took this job just personally because this is a service
Speaker 1: that people will always need in this county. They arrest
Speaker 1: hundreds of people a day on a regular basis, and
Speaker 1: so there's plenty of business to pick and choose from.
Speaker 1: Really common are d uise and like simple battery, obstruction
Speaker 1: of a law enforcement officer. We have not seen a
Speaker 1: lot of that lately at all, because people are not out.
Speaker 1: You know, that kind of keeps our ship aflow because
Speaker 1: we're counting on those We get those smaller bonds all
Speaker 1: the time, those types of things that we see often
Speaker 1: that we haven't been seeing because people have been staying home.
Speaker 1: I think the lowest that we saw was thirteen people
Speaker 1: arrested in in twenty four hours, and then once they
Speaker 1: get arrested, we are up against the judge just letting
Speaker 1: them sign themselves out on what's called their own recognizance bond,
Speaker 1: which basically means that they don't have to pay any money.
Speaker 1: They can just sign and say, you know, I promised
Speaker 1: to show up in court. So that takes business away
Speaker 1: from us as well. You know, you have the others
Speaker 1: that have done serious things that may have no bond,
Speaker 1: and then you have other businesses also vying for those
Speaker 1: few left in the barrel. So they've only arrested thirteen
Speaker 1: people and six of them get to sign their own bonds,
Speaker 1: and then several different companies trying to get that same business.
Speaker 1: So yes, we have seen a dramatic drop in business.
Speaker 1: I think that the long term problem that I think
Speaker 1: about is just all of the people that have been
Speaker 1: released on signature bonds. That's going back to the owner
Speaker 1: cognizant bonds that I was talking about. It's called we
Speaker 1: call them signature bonds mainly because I live in this
Speaker 1: the same community where I work, and those people are
Speaker 1: in my community and you're letting them out and they
Speaker 1: don't have really any skin in the game, so to speak.
Speaker 1: I think that having to post the bill and spend
Speaker 1: your heart on money to get out of jail is
Speaker 1: kind of a deterrent for future crime. And so, as
Speaker 1: a member of this community, the idea of people just
Speaker 1: being set free without having any immediate repercussions for what
Speaker 1: they've done is scary to me. The times that we're
Speaker 1: living in are very trying, and the circumstances are unusual.
Speaker 1: I have two small children and we were in Walmart
Speaker 1: and I was telling them instead of telling people that
Speaker 1: you want them to keep their space from you, you
Speaker 1: just move. It's easier for you to say, just move.
Speaker 1: But you know, we've seen things where people fight because
Speaker 1: people are in their personal space and they want to
Speaker 1: protect their safety, or people being pulled off of public
Speaker 1: transit because they don't have masks on the entire world
Speaker 1: has had to make an adjustment to accommodate this virus
Speaker 1: that was unexpected and unknown. None of us know what
Speaker 1: to do. Being compassionate towards your neighbor, I think is
Speaker 1: something that I would like to see everyone doing in general,
Speaker 1: not just from a business standpoint. We spoke with an
Speaker 1: old friend of mine, Chief Mike Wilkie. Chief Wilkie is
Speaker 1: the chief of police in the city of St. Mary's, Georgia. St.
Speaker 1: Mary's is right on the coast and across the state
Speaker 1: line from Jacksonville, Florida. Chief Wilkie also is a professor
Speaker 1: of public administration and criminal justice. We spoke with him
Speaker 1: about the changes that he's had to make for himself
Speaker 1: and his officers now that social distancing is the new norm, because,
Speaker 1: let's face it, policing has always been an up in
Speaker 1: personal proposition. On an average day, all my personal interaction
Speaker 1: was close and of course our officers are, you know,
Speaker 1: if they're taking reports, speaking with people, stopping people for
Speaker 1: speeding violations, all of their interaction is fairly close down.
Speaker 1: You know, we have a hospital which is in the seat,
Speaker 1: and there would be the occasional need to go over there,
Speaker 1: either to take somebody to the hospital that we had
Speaker 1: in custody, or to respond to something in the emergency
Speaker 1: room where there was an issue there and they needed
Speaker 1: police intervention. So we felt like we were just as
Speaker 1: exposed as you could be. We had a pair of
Speaker 1: rubber gloves on our duty belt, and you know, if
Speaker 1: you get to a scene and somebody's bleeding all over
Speaker 1: the place, where we know not to step in it,
Speaker 1: not to touch it. That's really about all I think
Speaker 1: probably that your average officer paid attention to. When the
Speaker 1: first COVID matters started coming out eight to ten weeks ago,
Speaker 1: we just sort of backed up and said, what are
Speaker 1: we gonna do? So we really went through the throws
Speaker 1: and trying to understand how to exercise and protection for ourselves.
Speaker 1: We give masks to our folks, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: a little quibbling about whether or not you're gonna wear
Speaker 1: a mask when you're a police uniforming and my thought
Speaker 1: on it was, I don't care about the uniform, I
Speaker 1: care about the person. We need to do what we
Speaker 1: can to protect the individual. Some masks and gloves became
Speaker 1: fairly standard. A business entity in town was concerned about
Speaker 1: this for the fire department and the police department, and
Speaker 1: they provided some funding for something that amounted to like
Speaker 1: a defumigator type of thing, and so we were daily
Speaker 1: driving our vehicles through once a day for for this device.
Speaker 1: We used to spray the interior so as clean and
Speaker 1: disaffective as it could be. Everybody sort of already had
Speaker 1: some of the hand sanitizers in the car, and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, but we're really trying to make sure
Speaker 1: if everybody's got that. Now, we put in some regulations
Speaker 1: about entering the building, going in and out, making sure
Speaker 1: you use hand sanitizers. Come of the building, the first
Speaker 1: thing you do is go wash your hand. Here. We
Speaker 1: did have one of our personnelity that showed up and
Speaker 1: tested positive for us, and so that gave us some
Speaker 1: consternation for a time. So the fact that we had
Speaker 1: though somebody immediately in our department in this very rural
Speaker 1: county in southeast Georgia, brought our radar right up that
Speaker 1: you know, we need to be careful. Several of our
Speaker 1: people did go for the testing, and thankfully they all
Speaker 1: came back negatively. We did not really get anything specific
Speaker 1: from say, the Governor's office. The Governor's executive wards were
Speaker 1: especially be enforced by the sheriff. Of these local police
Speaker 1: were specifically written out, and subsequent iterations of that local
Speaker 1: police were included. We have taken a posture of being educational.
Speaker 1: If there was let's say, a restaurant and you know,
Speaker 1: we heard that folks and some of the great staff
Speaker 1: we're not wearing masks. We might go by and say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, let's let's make you aware of this, because
Speaker 1: this is what the executive ward is from the from
Speaker 1: the government are restaurants in places like that or licensed entities,
Speaker 1: and so the state does have some ability to control
Speaker 1: what they do. And we would say, you know, you
Speaker 1: folks need to have one mask, which please do that,
Speaker 1: and they'd say, oh, yes, sure, I'm so sorry, or
Speaker 1: we ran out world the way to get some more
Speaker 1: or things like that, and so we have been we
Speaker 1: tried the education to it. I don't believe that any
Speaker 1: citations have been written by this agency, either on the
Speaker 1: law enforcement agency or from our code enforcement, which is
Speaker 1: kind of a separate entity. And in the city we
Speaker 1: put it no changes and been telling the people not
Speaker 1: to make traffic stops or that sort of thing. We've
Speaker 1: left that discretionary and so our personnel have continued to
Speaker 1: have that level of interaction from an enforcements and point
Speaker 1: with the public. We did make some internal change where
Speaker 1: if someone made to report a stolen bicycle or something
Speaker 1: that was a fairly low level type of thing, the
Speaker 1: dispatcher would obtain a telephone number and we would take
Speaker 1: a report. And that's actually worked out to be Sarah
Speaker 1: sort of convenience for us, and we may we may
Speaker 1: continue that. Probably one of the biggest issues for us
Speaker 1: is that on occasion we've had to take someone into
Speaker 1: custody and take them to the jail, which is operated
Speaker 1: by another law enforcement entity, and we've had some issues
Speaker 1: with people being accepted by the jail because their temperature
Speaker 1: may have been slightly elevated or something of that nature.
Speaker 1: So it kind of made some a little bit of
Speaker 1: issue for our folks and where not we could even
Speaker 1: take someone to jail if they were under arrest, and
Speaker 1: that was particularly troublesome if it was, you know, a fellow.
Speaker 1: We asked Chief Wilkie whether his officers had seen any
Speaker 1: substantial increases or decreases the types of calls they were answering.
Speaker 1: I asked our personnel so that I was walking into
Speaker 1: this innerview blind, you know, if they if we've noticed
Speaker 1: anything of any increased activity that that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And I really don't have any feedback from our personnel
Speaker 1: that that sort of thing has happened. The George Association
Speaker 1: Chiefs at least did a survey of the agencies. I
Speaker 1: think that there were about ten percent of them that
Speaker 1: responded that they that they had seen an increase in
Speaker 1: domestic violence type events in our area. I don't think
Speaker 1: that it's really made a great deal of difference. The
Speaker 1: state of Georgia, where we're located, made headlines a while
Speaker 1: back for being one of the first states to begin
Speaker 1: the process of being reopened for business. I had heard
Speaker 1: that people were coming into Georgia from neighboring states to
Speaker 1: visit all kinds of businesses. Since Chief Wilki's town is
Speaker 1: right across the border from Florida, I asked him if
Speaker 1: he'd seen Floria a license plate around town. I can't
Speaker 1: not answer about the massages and tattoo partners because I
Speaker 1: just don't personally keep up with them. We do have
Speaker 1: some restaurants and establishments that are open in town now
Speaker 1: that may be one of their features of service of
Speaker 1: alcoholic beverage. And we have noticed a number of Florida tags.
Speaker 1: Same thing with some churches into Harry and we didn't
Speaker 1: interfere with them, but we did look and we noticed
Speaker 1: that there are several churches have just had a lot
Speaker 1: of Florida tags in the parking lots. As a coastal city,
Speaker 1: Chief Wilkie is facing another problem just around the corner
Speaker 1: that he's also starting to prepare for him As to
Speaker 1: COVID Nineteam, I'm coming to the understanding that the hotter
Speaker 1: it gets, the more difficulty that virus is going to
Speaker 1: have to survive, and so we're just praying that hot
Speaker 1: weather hurry up and get here, because fairly shortly we're
Speaker 1: going to start turning our attention to hurricane preparation, and
Speaker 1: we don't want to be had to deal with both
Speaker 1: crises at the same time. In the last week of March,
Speaker 1: I'd come home from a couple of round trip flights,
Speaker 1: and after a few days, I found myself feeling this
Speaker 1: overwhelming sense of fatigue. I was flatly exhausted. I eventually
Speaker 1: started running a fever. It got up to about a
Speaker 1: hundred and two point five. I knew something was up,
Speaker 1: something wasn't right. This was different. I'd never run a
Speaker 1: fever like this in years, and the chills and fatigue
Speaker 1: were unlike anything that I had experienced before. I didn't
Speaker 1: have a cough, but I checked in remotely with my doctor,
Speaker 1: some friends who are doctors, and even a family member
Speaker 1: who is a medical professional, and all of them said
Speaker 1: that this sound it exactly like COVID nineteen. Well, my
Speaker 1: wife made sure that I took pretty quick action. She
Speaker 1: moved me down to the basement for almost two weeks,
Speaker 1: away from her and her kids. She fed me food
Speaker 1: through the door. She managed all of the regular and
Speaker 1: new household tasks that already were on her plate, including
Speaker 1: homeschooling our two children. It was frankly awful feelings so
Speaker 1: rundown and watching my wife take on all of these responsibilities.
Speaker 1: I knew I needed to stay away from them though,
Speaker 1: until I could get tested so I would not pass
Speaker 1: anything along to the rest of my family. Around ten
Speaker 1: days into this ordeal, I made a telemedicine appointment with
Speaker 1: a nurse practitioner who ordered me the COVID nineteen nasal swab.
Speaker 1: So I drove myself to a back parking lot of
Speaker 1: this medical practitioner's office, where the workers had me swabbed
Speaker 1: my own nose for influenza and for COVID nineteen. The
Speaker 1: influenza test came back negative the same day. A couple
Speaker 1: of days later, lo and behold, the COVID test was
Speaker 1: negative too, so I immediately rejoined my family. I was
Speaker 1: feeling better by that point, but I wasn't completely well,
Speaker 1: but since they told me I did not have COVID nineteen,
Speaker 1: I felt it was safe to go ahead and become
Speaker 1: a part of my family again. As time went on,
Speaker 1: and after discussing my situation with more medical professionals, I
Speaker 1: wasn't convinced about that negative COVID test. So I went
Speaker 1: to get the anybody test. It was a blood draw
Speaker 1: and it could see if your body had actually fought
Speaker 1: off this virus, and low and behold, it came back positive.
Speaker 1: I had had it. Luckily, nobody in my family sick.
Speaker 1: In fact, my wife had the anybody test and hers
Speaker 1: was negative. I don't know how that happened, but I'm
Speaker 1: grateful that it did. There's still so much confusion about
Speaker 1: this disease. My doctor told me that I probably have
Speaker 1: some immunity, but who knows if it's going to last
Speaker 1: for very long at all. Maybe it will get me
Speaker 1: by until there's a vaccine. We just don't know. And
Speaker 1: like everyone we interviewed here said, no one knows how
Speaker 1: long social distancing and business shutdowns can last. But like
Speaker 1: sh Tira said, I think it's important to be compassionate
Speaker 1: with each other, to be patient, and to try as
Speaker 1: best we can to keep each other safe. I hope
Speaker 1: you all out there are taking care of yourselves and
Speaker 1: the people around you. I know I am. Until next time,
Speaker 1: stay safe, stay sane, and keep an eye out. This
Speaker 1: for the wide release of Sworn Season two. Sworn is
Speaker 1: a production of Tenderfoot TV and I Heart Media. Our
Speaker 1: lead producer is Christina Dana. Executive producers are Payne Lindsay
Speaker 1: and Donald Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt Frederick and Alex
Speaker 1: Williams for I Heart Media, and myself Philip Holloway. Additional
Speaker 1: production by Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay, Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright,
Speaker 1: and Hallie beat On. Original music and sound designed by
Speaker 1: Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Blood in
Speaker 1: the Water by Layup. Show art and design is by
Speaker 1: Trevor Eisler, Editing by Christina Dana, Mixing and mastering by
Speaker 1: Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special thanks to the team
Speaker 1: at I Heart Media, from U T a or In
Speaker 1: Rosenbaum and Grace Royer, Ryan Nord and Matthew pap from
Speaker 1: the North That Media and Marketing and Station sixteen. I'd
Speaker 1: also like to extend a very personal and special thanks
Speaker 1: to all of our contributors and guests who have helped
Speaker 1: to make all of these episodes possible. You can find
Speaker 1: Sworn on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn podcast and
Speaker 1: follow me your host, Philip Halloway on Twitter at Phil
Speaker 1: Holloway e s Q. Our website is Sworn podcast dot com,
Speaker 1: and you can check out other Tenderfoot TV podcasts at
Speaker 1: www dot tenderfoot dot tv. If you have questions or comments,
Speaker 1: you can email us at Sworn at Tenderfoot dot tv
Speaker 1: or leave us a voicemail at four zero four for
Speaker 1: one zero zero four four one. As always, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: I met Phil years go when he worked at the
Speaker 1: Cobb County District Attorney's office, and I thought Phil was
Speaker 1: a complete dick. He uh, he was very, very difficult
Speaker 1: to work with. Phil was no nonsense and we probably
Speaker 1: should have hated each other, but years later we're still friends.
Speaker 1: In fact, I was in his wedding