1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:24,836 Speaker 1: Pushing. Oh, I usually bring the dog in so that 2 00:00:24,956 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 1: I can control his barking. So I'm professional best friends 3 00:00:28,396 --> 00:00:30,956 Speaker 1: or dogs. Yeah, that's why he's not making it to 4 00:00:31,036 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: season three. Khalil, you know co host? All Right, I'm back. 5 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:47,956 Speaker 1: Is also my audition. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. 6 00:00:48,116 --> 00:00:51,356 Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 7 00:00:51,436 --> 00:00:54,236 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 8 00:00:54,276 --> 00:00:58,756 Speaker 1: my best friends are some of my best friends are Hey. 9 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,876 Speaker 1: On this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the 10 00:01:01,916 --> 00:01:06,476 Speaker 1: absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. Yeah. Man, 11 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:09,316 Speaker 1: talk about deeply divided. I mean today we're talking to 12 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 1: Clint Smith, a poet and a writer. He is helping 13 00:01:13,036 --> 00:01:16,196 Speaker 1: us unpack some of the most divisive, nasty stuff in 14 00:01:16,316 --> 00:01:21,196 Speaker 1: our collective memory, going to historical sites. He's using poetry 15 00:01:21,316 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: to really unpack the meaning and emotion behind how we 16 00:01:25,956 --> 00:01:28,556 Speaker 1: talk about the past. Yeah. Yeah, so Clint Smith. He 17 00:01:28,596 --> 00:01:32,036 Speaker 1: has a new collection of poetry out Above Ground. It's 18 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: out in March. He's also a staff writer for the Atlantic, 19 00:01:35,836 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: and he also wrote this book of nonfiction called How 20 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:41,756 Speaker 1: the Word Has Passed And You talked about him sort 21 00:01:41,756 --> 00:01:44,476 Speaker 1: of you know, grappling with the most divisive stuff. But 22 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:48,236 Speaker 1: he's such a beautiful writer. Like when you read his writing, 23 00:01:48,636 --> 00:01:53,396 Speaker 1: it feels moving and even uplifting, like it's it's it's 24 00:01:53,516 --> 00:01:57,196 Speaker 1: enjoyable to engage with all of his writing. Yeah. Yeah, 25 00:01:57,196 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 1: so let's talk to Clint. This is going to be great. 26 00:02:12,396 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: I was just thinking about the first time I met Khalil. 27 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: It was on the train from the airport, that's right. 28 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:24,476 Speaker 1: And I remember because you were very serious, you know, 29 00:02:24,596 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 1: like like well I was, you know, I was like, oh, snap, 30 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:31,756 Speaker 1: that's Khalil Jabrah Muhammed. I was like, you know, I 31 00:02:32,276 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 1: don't have my book on me because so I was 32 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:37,796 Speaker 1: like I had to. I try to. I was trying 33 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:40,716 Speaker 1: to be too cool for school. So so today we're 34 00:02:40,756 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: talking to Clint Smith, who has a new book out 35 00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:46,876 Speaker 1: Above Ground. It's a book of poetry, a wonderful book 36 00:02:46,876 --> 00:02:51,356 Speaker 1: of poetry that in so many ways continues your meditation 37 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:57,796 Speaker 1: on how to reconcile sort of the realities of a 38 00:02:57,876 --> 00:03:01,236 Speaker 1: of a world that doesn't guarantee a whole lot, and 39 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:05,036 Speaker 1: what that means to think about the stories we pass on, which, 40 00:03:05,436 --> 00:03:08,836 Speaker 1: of course, to me, the continuity between your your your 41 00:03:08,876 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 1: first first book of nonfiction, not your first book of poetry, 42 00:03:12,356 --> 00:03:15,156 Speaker 1: but your first book of nonfiction, which precedes Above Ground, 43 00:03:15,156 --> 00:03:18,436 Speaker 1: which comes out this month, is how the word has passed. 44 00:03:19,116 --> 00:03:22,836 Speaker 1: And I'm just so so excited you know that you're 45 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:24,796 Speaker 1: doing this work. I remember talking to you about your 46 00:03:24,796 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 1: dissertation and thinking about the many choices and past you 47 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 1: could travel down. Yeah, and maybe Clint, I'll just add 48 00:03:30,996 --> 00:03:33,076 Speaker 1: to that. I mean, I think of the three of 49 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:35,916 Speaker 1: us being writers, all of us writing and kind of 50 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:41,116 Speaker 1: grappling with this country and invariably grappling with race in 51 00:03:41,156 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 1: this country, and doing it in different ways and with 52 00:03:44,556 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 1: different kinds of writing. And just to throw it on 53 00:03:47,156 --> 00:03:51,116 Speaker 1: you like to, let's talk about poetry. Like like Khalil 54 00:03:51,156 --> 00:03:55,636 Speaker 1: and I write nonfiction. Also, we don't write poetry. You know, 55 00:03:56,276 --> 00:03:58,876 Speaker 1: why do you turn to poetry? You know? How is 56 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:03,796 Speaker 1: that part of your writing? Your writing self? For me, 57 00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:09,796 Speaker 1: poetry is the act of paying attention. Forces me to 58 00:04:10,036 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: pay attention to a moment, an idea, a feeling, a sentiment, 59 00:04:15,676 --> 00:04:19,836 Speaker 1: a period of time in ways that I might not 60 00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:24,036 Speaker 1: otherwise do if it is both the creation of art, 61 00:04:24,476 --> 00:04:26,996 Speaker 1: but it is also the mechanism through which I do 62 00:04:27,036 --> 00:04:31,676 Speaker 1: my best thinking. It's the sort of excavation of again 63 00:04:31,756 --> 00:04:35,476 Speaker 1: a moment in time and allows me to sort of 64 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:40,276 Speaker 1: create a time capsule of how who I was and 65 00:04:40,316 --> 00:04:44,796 Speaker 1: how I was thinking about these ideas, these moments. And 66 00:04:44,996 --> 00:04:47,916 Speaker 1: it's almost the same way that like a photographer, you know, 67 00:04:48,236 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: might take a photo of a tree. Right. It can 68 00:04:50,036 --> 00:04:52,276 Speaker 1: be a tree that you walk by every single day 69 00:04:52,636 --> 00:04:55,676 Speaker 1: of your life. But if you stop and you take 70 00:04:55,716 --> 00:04:58,116 Speaker 1: a photograph of the tree, or you zoom in on 71 00:04:58,156 --> 00:05:01,996 Speaker 1: a specific leaf on that tree, you'll see that it's actually, 72 00:05:02,356 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: you know, several different shades of green. You'll see the 73 00:05:05,356 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: whole that a caterpillar bit through. I'll see the edges, 74 00:05:10,036 --> 00:05:14,276 Speaker 1: you know that the us as like you know, summer 75 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:17,676 Speaker 1: turns to fall. It just allows you to to pay 76 00:05:17,716 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: attention to that which you otherwise might encounter every day, 77 00:05:23,516 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 1: but with a different level of intentionality. Bring it, Clint, 78 00:05:27,196 --> 00:05:31,756 Speaker 1: bring it. Yeah, that is some impressive wordsmithing, but really, 79 00:05:31,796 --> 00:05:35,036 Speaker 1: I mean all jokes aside. What you're saying is poetry 80 00:05:35,196 --> 00:05:41,036 Speaker 1: is your first draft of expressing what you're living. That's 81 00:05:41,036 --> 00:05:44,716 Speaker 1: exactly right, Khalil. I mean in your new collection above Ground, 82 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 1: so much of that where you just said that careful observation, 83 00:05:48,436 --> 00:05:53,996 Speaker 1: the commemorating of a moment is about your children. And 84 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:56,876 Speaker 1: many of the poems are written in second person to 85 00:05:56,956 --> 00:05:59,956 Speaker 1: are you? Who are are your two children? And Khalil 86 00:05:59,996 --> 00:06:02,956 Speaker 1: and I are both parents, are both fathers. Our kids 87 00:06:02,956 --> 00:06:07,356 Speaker 1: are older than yours now and yeah, and like, you know, 88 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 1: why do that? I mean, you know, what does it 89 00:06:09,836 --> 00:06:12,036 Speaker 1: mean that you're doing that as a parent and sort 90 00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:15,036 Speaker 1: of you know, taking care. It's not a leaf, it's 91 00:06:15,036 --> 00:06:17,196 Speaker 1: your child. And how you read to them at night, 92 00:06:17,316 --> 00:06:20,796 Speaker 1: or how you how you see them process a certain moment, 93 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:25,916 Speaker 1: These these fleeting aspects of parenthood. Yeah, for sure. You know, 94 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 1: I think coming out of my last book, How the 95 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:32,276 Speaker 1: Word Has Passed, which is thinking about how different historical 96 00:06:32,316 --> 00:06:35,476 Speaker 1: sites across the country reckon with or failed reckon with 97 00:06:35,476 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 1: their relationship to the history of slavery. Um. You know, 98 00:06:38,916 --> 00:06:43,676 Speaker 1: I I spent several years thinking about and researching and 99 00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:47,876 Speaker 1: traveling to sites of of enslavement. You know, it was 100 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:53,796 Speaker 1: sites of torture, sites of trauma, sites of of a 101 00:06:53,916 --> 00:07:00,956 Speaker 1: sort of inexplicable human suffering. And what happened is that 102 00:07:01,036 --> 00:07:04,036 Speaker 1: as I was researching How the Word Has Passed, and 103 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:06,356 Speaker 1: traveling all these different places, my wife and I were 104 00:07:06,396 --> 00:07:09,756 Speaker 1: starting our family. So now my son is five going 105 00:07:09,796 --> 00:07:13,356 Speaker 1: on six, my daughters three going on four. And when 106 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:16,596 Speaker 1: I was in these places, inevitably, and people who've read 107 00:07:16,596 --> 00:07:19,676 Speaker 1: how the words passle know inevitably, so much of how 108 00:07:19,716 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 1: I was processing these spaces was tied to and animated 109 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:27,876 Speaker 1: by being a father and being like and having that 110 00:07:27,996 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: become a new part of my identity. So when I'm standing, 111 00:07:31,036 --> 00:07:33,516 Speaker 1: you know, in a cabin at Whitney Plantation in Louisiana, 112 00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:36,156 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about what it means to stand in 113 00:07:37,356 --> 00:07:40,876 Speaker 1: and have my feet on the same wooden planks, within 114 00:07:40,916 --> 00:07:47,036 Speaker 1: the same structure that generations of enslaved people slept in themselves. 115 00:07:47,156 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking now of, you know, the sort 116 00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 1: of torture of slavery, not only through the prism of 117 00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: the spectacle of physical brutality, but also family separation, right 118 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:00,676 Speaker 1: And I remember specifically standing in that place and thinking 119 00:08:00,716 --> 00:08:03,876 Speaker 1: about what would it be like if I put my 120 00:08:03,956 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 1: kids to sleep and I woke up the next day 121 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: and my children were gone, and I had no idea 122 00:08:09,236 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 1: what had happened to them. I had no idea where 123 00:08:10,756 --> 00:08:12,116 Speaker 1: they went, I had no idea if I would ever 124 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:15,476 Speaker 1: see them again. And it's a sort of unfathomable sort 125 00:08:15,516 --> 00:08:20,796 Speaker 1: of cruelty, a sort of unfathomable sort of emotional terrain 126 00:08:20,916 --> 00:08:24,676 Speaker 1: to even have to imagine. And I had those sorts 127 00:08:24,676 --> 00:08:27,356 Speaker 1: of moments that all these different types of places all 128 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 1: across the country. And part of what shape the desire 129 00:08:32,916 --> 00:08:36,636 Speaker 1: to write Above Ground is that I was thinking so 130 00:08:36,756 --> 00:08:41,676 Speaker 1: much about the experience of parenting in the context of 131 00:08:41,756 --> 00:08:46,396 Speaker 1: enslavement that I wanted to and in the context of 132 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:50,036 Speaker 1: what it means to be part of a lineage of 133 00:08:50,876 --> 00:08:54,636 Speaker 1: enslaved people and the descendants of enslaved people, and how 134 00:08:54,636 --> 00:08:56,636 Speaker 1: to what it means that my children are the descendants 135 00:08:56,636 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: of these people who are in these cabins, who are 136 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,676 Speaker 1: on this land. But I think all the time about 137 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:04,356 Speaker 1: how the black experience in this country, as much as 138 00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: it is fundamentally important, as you all know and think 139 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:09,956 Speaker 1: about all the time, it is fun mentally important to 140 00:09:09,956 --> 00:09:14,356 Speaker 1: take seriously and engage with and struggle with the history 141 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:16,836 Speaker 1: of violence and oppression that's been enacted on black people. 142 00:09:17,516 --> 00:09:21,396 Speaker 1: And the experience of being a black person in this 143 00:09:21,436 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 1: country is not singularly defined by that trauma, by that violence, 144 00:09:25,716 --> 00:09:27,956 Speaker 1: by that oppression. It's far more expansive than that. It's 145 00:09:27,996 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 1: far more diverse than that. It's far more It stretches 146 00:09:31,716 --> 00:09:36,436 Speaker 1: into joy, it stretches into wonder. And I wanted to 147 00:09:36,476 --> 00:09:40,116 Speaker 1: make sure that I was writing poems that reflected the 148 00:09:40,156 --> 00:09:43,916 Speaker 1: totality of my own thinking. Right, So I do take 149 00:09:43,956 --> 00:09:46,636 Speaker 1: seriously and think about this history all the time. And 150 00:09:46,756 --> 00:09:51,596 Speaker 1: like I love watching my kids watch a ladybug take 151 00:09:51,636 --> 00:09:54,316 Speaker 1: flight for the first time. I love having a dance 152 00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 1: party with my kids in the middle of the kitchen, 153 00:09:56,196 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: like I love you know, all of these different parts 154 00:09:59,836 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 1: of of who I am and how I make sense 155 00:10:03,316 --> 00:10:05,796 Speaker 1: of my own experience in the world. And so this 156 00:10:05,956 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 1: was an attempt to think about how we hold both 157 00:10:09,956 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: the social tumults and historical suffering alongside a sense of wonder, 158 00:10:18,476 --> 00:10:21,156 Speaker 1: a sense of awe, a sense of joy. Um, And 159 00:10:21,236 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 1: what it means to watch your kids, you know, these 160 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,396 Speaker 1: tiny little humans here sort of discover the world for 161 00:10:27,396 --> 00:10:30,116 Speaker 1: the first time. Yeah, now that's a that's very powerful 162 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:34,356 Speaker 1: and evocative. So could you share, um? Could you could 163 00:10:34,356 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 1: you read one of the poems from from Above Ground Force. 164 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:44,156 Speaker 1: I'd be happy to given that I was talking about 165 00:10:44,676 --> 00:10:46,876 Speaker 1: the sort of writing into a space of joy. Um, 166 00:10:47,076 --> 00:10:49,836 Speaker 1: let me just do this this other one. That's all right. 167 00:10:52,076 --> 00:10:58,316 Speaker 1: Dance party. Sometimes in the evening, after dinner, after spaghetti 168 00:10:58,396 --> 00:11:00,716 Speaker 1: has been slurped and I have bribed the broccoli into 169 00:11:00,756 --> 00:11:04,596 Speaker 1: their bellies, I give both of my children the look 170 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,196 Speaker 1: when my eyes meet theirs. They know what time it is. 171 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 1: They push in their chairs, they stretched their legs, and 172 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:13,476 Speaker 1: we moved the table to the far end of the 173 00:11:13,516 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 1: dining room to clear space for what we all know 174 00:11:15,836 --> 00:11:20,076 Speaker 1: is coming. Alexa play the post dinner dance party playlist, 175 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:24,356 Speaker 1: and within seconds, Martha WASH's booming voice rolls like thunder 176 00:11:24,396 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: over our bodies. Everybody danced. Now. The electronic keyboard and 177 00:11:29,316 --> 00:11:31,116 Speaker 1: the drums meet in the middle of the room like 178 00:11:31,116 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: two dinosaurs ready to claim this kitchen as their own. 179 00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: Immediately the jumping begins, and my daughter is flinging her 180 00:11:37,076 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 1: limbs like an offbeat octopus, hands slapping the air behind 181 00:11:40,436 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 1: her as if she is trying to smack anyone who 182 00:11:42,596 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 1: enters her sacred space. I turned around and my son 183 00:11:45,476 --> 00:11:48,636 Speaker 1: is doing the robot or is being eaten by a robot, 184 00:11:48,796 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 1: or is trapped in a universe where robots take over 185 00:11:51,076 --> 00:11:54,236 Speaker 1: the bodies of little boys and peanut butter pajamas. Nonetheless, 186 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:58,156 Speaker 1: there is a robot somewhere, and my children, bless them, 187 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:00,396 Speaker 1: have not yet learned how to clap on the two 188 00:12:00,476 --> 00:12:04,076 Speaker 1: and four, So I laugh but also cringe as their 189 00:12:04,076 --> 00:12:06,836 Speaker 1: small bodies make a mockery of the melody around them. 190 00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:12,036 Speaker 1: Now halfway through the song, everyone is jumping, and I, 191 00:12:12,076 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 1: caught up in the ecstasy of this moment, fall to 192 00:12:14,636 --> 00:12:16,996 Speaker 1: the ground and convince this no longer young body that 193 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:19,356 Speaker 1: it is a good idea to start doing the worm. 194 00:12:19,356 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 1: And when my children see me, their eyes become pools 195 00:12:21,996 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: of possibilities, and it is clear that they see this 196 00:12:24,236 --> 00:12:26,796 Speaker 1: as a clarion call to climb onto my back. And 197 00:12:26,956 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 1: now here we are. This strange trifecta is unlikely trio 198 00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 1: a robot and an octopus riding the back of a 199 00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:36,396 Speaker 1: worm who will certainly need some tylan, all before bed. 200 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:39,996 Speaker 1: And it is in this moment that their mother comes home. 201 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 1: And when she opens the door, everyone is screaming. The 202 00:12:43,396 --> 00:12:46,596 Speaker 1: speakers are blasting, and the percussion is shaking every wall 203 00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:50,156 Speaker 1: around us. We look up at her, and she looks 204 00:12:50,196 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: down at us, and we have no explanation for this 205 00:12:53,196 --> 00:12:57,396 Speaker 1: strange scene. Only an invitation for her to join. Right, 206 00:13:01,676 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: but we're going to take a quick break. We'll be 207 00:13:03,596 --> 00:13:24,156 Speaker 1: back with more Clint Smith in a minute. All right, 208 00:13:24,236 --> 00:13:28,316 Speaker 1: we are back on Some of my best friends are Clint. 209 00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 1: That that poem is is all the things you said 210 00:13:31,316 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 1: about sort of being immersed in your in the life 211 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,356 Speaker 1: of your family and to find the beauty and joy 212 00:13:36,396 --> 00:13:39,116 Speaker 1: in these details and how they're I don't know they 213 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: but they're expanded. Um. It makes me think too of 214 00:13:44,236 --> 00:13:47,236 Speaker 1: a recent essay you wrote for The Atlantic where you 215 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:51,236 Speaker 1: wrote about Tyree Nichols, who was recently murdered. Yeah, you know, 216 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:54,436 Speaker 1: so this this essay you're talking about is about um 217 00:13:54,596 --> 00:13:58,036 Speaker 1: for those who might not be familiar, it's it's thinking 218 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:01,716 Speaker 1: about Tyree Nichols um and his love of sunsets, you know, 219 00:14:01,916 --> 00:14:06,396 Speaker 1: And he and his life are a reminder of the 220 00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:10,716 Speaker 1: plurality and the heterogeneity of the black experience in this country. Right. 221 00:14:10,756 --> 00:14:13,316 Speaker 1: I think it will be so easy for somebody maybe 222 00:14:13,356 --> 00:14:15,396 Speaker 1: to hear his name and to make a set of 223 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:18,236 Speaker 1: assumptions about who he is, where it comes from, what 224 00:14:18,356 --> 00:14:23,596 Speaker 1: his interests are, what he was into, and that largely 225 00:14:23,676 --> 00:14:26,516 Speaker 1: for him is not the case. And I think, you know, 226 00:14:26,636 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: one of the things that I was most struck by, 227 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 1: and the sort of aftermath of his death and the 228 00:14:32,276 --> 00:14:36,276 Speaker 1: subsequent video was this quote from his mother where she 229 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:38,796 Speaker 1: talked about how much he loved going to the skate 230 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:42,756 Speaker 1: park in the evening at dusk and watching the sunset. 231 00:14:43,556 --> 00:14:47,396 Speaker 1: And there was this photo that his brother had started 232 00:14:47,436 --> 00:14:51,036 Speaker 1: sharing of Tyree taking a getting out of his car 233 00:14:52,156 --> 00:14:54,516 Speaker 1: as the sun was setting just beyond the horizon and 234 00:14:54,596 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 1: sort of taking a selfie with this sunset in the background. 235 00:14:59,316 --> 00:15:02,676 Speaker 1: And I, you know, as I talked about in the essay, 236 00:15:02,676 --> 00:15:05,516 Speaker 1: it made me think about this painting by Van Gogh 237 00:15:05,596 --> 00:15:08,396 Speaker 1: that I had seen. And van Gogh similarly had this 238 00:15:08,476 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: love of sun sets and tried to capture them in 239 00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:12,916 Speaker 1: all sorts of ways. And and I there was a 240 00:15:12,956 --> 00:15:15,836 Speaker 1: moment where I had stumbled on it, not because I'm 241 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:18,836 Speaker 1: you know, a well learned art historian or anything. It's 242 00:15:18,836 --> 00:15:22,236 Speaker 1: because I was googling sunsets to draw with my with 243 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:26,476 Speaker 1: my kids, and and there was you know, his van 244 00:15:26,556 --> 00:15:29,596 Speaker 1: Gogh wrote this letter to his brother where he talked 245 00:15:29,636 --> 00:15:33,636 Speaker 1: about attempting to capture the beauty of the sun setting 246 00:15:33,676 --> 00:15:36,356 Speaker 1: before it crossed over the horizon, before you know, this 247 00:15:36,476 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 1: fleeting thing that is both so quotitian and yet so miraculous, 248 00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:44,876 Speaker 1: wanting to capture that through his work. And I saw 249 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:48,956 Speaker 1: the same thing in Tyree, and heard the same thing, 250 00:15:48,956 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 1: and saw it in his photo, and heard it in 251 00:15:50,836 --> 00:15:54,716 Speaker 1: his mother's voice when she talked about his love of 252 00:15:54,756 --> 00:15:57,116 Speaker 1: going to the skate park to watch the sunset every evening. 253 00:15:57,516 --> 00:16:00,996 Speaker 1: And so I think in in these moments, I try 254 00:16:01,036 --> 00:16:06,876 Speaker 1: to I try my best to say something that is 255 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:14,756 Speaker 1: less centered on though who murdered this person, and more 256 00:16:14,836 --> 00:16:21,156 Speaker 1: on an attempt to remember the person as a person, 257 00:16:22,236 --> 00:16:25,076 Speaker 1: remember the person as a human. Yeah, yeah, thank you 258 00:16:25,116 --> 00:16:29,356 Speaker 1: for that, Clint, that essay, it is extremely powerful. I 259 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:31,836 Speaker 1: actually want to shift gears a little bit, and I 260 00:16:31,916 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: want to talk about another work of yours, the book 261 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:37,556 Speaker 1: you released in twenty twenty one, a work of nonfiction, 262 00:16:38,116 --> 00:16:41,236 Speaker 1: How the Word Is Passed, a reckoning with the history 263 00:16:41,316 --> 00:16:46,076 Speaker 1: of slavery across America. You know, it's this series of essays, 264 00:16:46,236 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 1: like these trips you go on, you go to these 265 00:16:49,116 --> 00:16:52,956 Speaker 1: sites of memory, these sites of memorializing. And for me, 266 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:57,156 Speaker 1: you know, as somebody who writes long form features, magazine features, 267 00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:02,036 Speaker 1: reading this book, it felt a lot like like eight 268 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: reporting trips You know, for a magazine and where you're 269 00:17:07,836 --> 00:17:11,876 Speaker 1: there as the the seeing eye of the reporter that 270 00:17:11,876 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 1: we can do in those kind of pieces, and so 271 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:16,116 Speaker 1: the experiences could be kind of you you're both bringing 272 00:17:16,116 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 1: back the information of a place, but also this kind 273 00:17:18,276 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 1: of seeing eye of taking everything and it's immediated through 274 00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:23,756 Speaker 1: your own experiences. I wondered how you conceived of the 275 00:17:23,796 --> 00:17:26,556 Speaker 1: book in that sense. Did you did you think of it, 276 00:17:26,596 --> 00:17:28,996 Speaker 1: you know, related to your magazine work, did you think 277 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:32,436 Speaker 1: of it related to um, you know, how your role 278 00:17:32,476 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 1: would be and sort of using yourself in this sense, 279 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:37,156 Speaker 1: like like even in a kind of move, a narrative, 280 00:17:37,396 --> 00:17:41,516 Speaker 1: a storytelling move. Yeah. No, I really appreciate that question. 281 00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,876 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because so the book came out in 282 00:17:44,956 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 1: June twenty twenty one, and it was fascinating when when 283 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:52,316 Speaker 1: all the reviews started coming out, there was this everybody 284 00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:55,556 Speaker 1: started saying like poet and journalist Clint Smith goes to 285 00:17:55,596 --> 00:17:58,076 Speaker 1: these different historical sites. And I was like, who's a 286 00:17:58,156 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 1: journalist talked about? Like what? Like it was like like 287 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:05,556 Speaker 1: a magazine, right, I was like, what like it? It's 288 00:18:05,596 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: so interesting because like I I only started working at 289 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: the Atlantic in twenty twenty September twenty twenty. And this 290 00:18:13,756 --> 00:18:16,076 Speaker 1: was after I turned in the book. And I had 291 00:18:16,196 --> 00:18:19,236 Speaker 1: never I hadn't worked in media before, Like I was 292 00:18:19,276 --> 00:18:24,116 Speaker 1: a graduate student, uh my PhD at Harvard. Yeah, so 293 00:18:24,156 --> 00:18:26,036 Speaker 1: what so what were your models? Like? What then? What 294 00:18:26,076 --> 00:18:27,876 Speaker 1: were you what were you thinking about as models for 295 00:18:27,916 --> 00:18:31,236 Speaker 1: this trip? Yeah, for these eight trips? I should say, 296 00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 1: I think that writing this book taught me how to 297 00:18:35,396 --> 00:18:40,716 Speaker 1: be a journalist. It taught me how to be a 298 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:42,956 Speaker 1: writer of narrative nonfiction. It taught me and I think 299 00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:45,276 Speaker 1: what I what I tried to do was just I 300 00:18:45,356 --> 00:18:47,436 Speaker 1: kind of just looked up, like, what are the best 301 00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:52,956 Speaker 1: examples of narrative nonfiction UM that have been published? And 302 00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 1: so spent a lot of time, you know, reading the 303 00:18:55,556 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: work of folks like obviously the one of the other 304 00:18:59,436 --> 00:19:01,956 Speaker 1: Sons as Bell Wilkinson, sort of stands on its own 305 00:19:01,996 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: at the at the zenith of the genre UM and 306 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:08,436 Speaker 1: and I kind of was learning as I go. And 307 00:19:09,476 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 1: because originally it wasn't imagined as a narrative nonfiction book, 308 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:17,956 Speaker 1: I thought that it was going to be my second 309 00:19:17,996 --> 00:19:22,156 Speaker 1: collection of poetry, the first being Counting Descent, right, the 310 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:24,356 Speaker 1: first being Counting Descent, And I thought that this one 311 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:27,756 Speaker 1: would be my next collection, because the origin story of 312 00:19:27,756 --> 00:19:30,276 Speaker 1: the book is that in twenty seventeen, I watched several 313 00:19:30,316 --> 00:19:32,596 Speaker 1: Confederate statues come down in my hometown in New Orleans, 314 00:19:32,636 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 1: statues with PGT. Buregard, Jefferson Davis, Roberty Lee. And as 315 00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:37,996 Speaker 1: I was watching these statues come down, I was thinking 316 00:19:37,996 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: about what it meant that I grew up in a 317 00:19:39,396 --> 00:19:42,316 Speaker 1: majority of black city in which there were more homages 318 00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:45,316 Speaker 1: to enslavers than there were to enslave people, and thinking about, well, 319 00:19:45,356 --> 00:19:47,036 Speaker 1: what are the implications that what does it mean that 320 00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 1: to get to school I had to go down Robert E. 321 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:50,676 Speaker 1: Lee Boulevard, to get to the grocery store, I had 322 00:19:50,716 --> 00:19:53,196 Speaker 1: to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway, that my middle school 323 00:19:53,276 --> 00:19:55,276 Speaker 1: was named after a leader of the Confederacy, that my 324 00:19:55,276 --> 00:19:57,756 Speaker 1: parents still live on a street today named after someone 325 00:19:57,756 --> 00:19:59,876 Speaker 1: who owned over one hundred and fifteen slave people. Because 326 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 1: the thing is, we know that symbols and names and 327 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 1: iconography aren't just symbols. They're reflective of the stories the 328 00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 1: people tell, and those stories shaped the narratives that communities 329 00:20:08,876 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 1: car times. Narratives shape public policy, and public policy is 330 00:20:12,076 --> 00:20:14,356 Speaker 1: what shapes the material conditions of people's lives. So it's 331 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 1: you know, and that's not to say that you just 332 00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:18,436 Speaker 1: take down a statue of Roberty Lee and sudden, suddenly 333 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 1: you'll raise the racial wealth gap. But I do think 334 00:20:21,476 --> 00:20:23,956 Speaker 1: it helps us, helps us recognize the sort of ecosystem 335 00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:27,196 Speaker 1: of ideas and narratives that help ground our understanding of 336 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:29,916 Speaker 1: American history and help us understand the way certain communities 337 00:20:30,356 --> 00:20:34,036 Speaker 1: have been disproportionately intentionally harmed throughout American history. And a 338 00:20:34,036 --> 00:20:35,996 Speaker 1: simple point, I just want to echo this here because 339 00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:37,316 Speaker 1: you said it, I just want to say it, say 340 00:20:37,356 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 1: it slightly differently. These symbols matter, which is why they 341 00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 1: went up in the first place. Yes, and if you 342 00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:46,636 Speaker 1: engage yeah, and as and as you and so many 343 00:20:46,636 --> 00:20:49,596 Speaker 1: others have written about, like if you think about the 344 00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 1: context in which they were erected, correct, it is real 345 00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 1: to be very clear what the intention behind them were, right. 346 00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:59,876 Speaker 1: And so I think watching the monuments come down for 347 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:04,316 Speaker 1: me was a catalyst to a sort of personal reckoning, 348 00:21:04,596 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 1: right and me being like, man, like I grew up 349 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:09,756 Speaker 1: in this city. I'm the descendant of enslaved people, right, 350 00:21:09,796 --> 00:21:14,516 Speaker 1: Like my grandfather's grandfather was enslaved and yet my own 351 00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:17,916 Speaker 1: understanding of the history of slavery in New Orleans, in 352 00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:21,796 Speaker 1: Louisiana and really across this country is not actually commensurate 353 00:21:22,516 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 1: with the impact and residue that it has had on 354 00:21:25,836 --> 00:21:28,916 Speaker 1: this country today. And so at first I was like, Okay, 355 00:21:28,996 --> 00:21:30,796 Speaker 1: well this book. I'm going to write a book of 356 00:21:30,796 --> 00:21:34,996 Speaker 1: poetry that's about all of these different statues in New Orleans. 357 00:21:35,156 --> 00:21:38,116 Speaker 1: And so I started with poems, and then it was like, okay, well, 358 00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:40,396 Speaker 1: you know, I think I need more space. And so 359 00:21:40,436 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 1: then I started writing these sort of extended lyrical, sort 360 00:21:43,556 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 1: of meditative essays, and then I was like, I think 361 00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:49,156 Speaker 1: I need additional voice, Like if I'm trying to think 362 00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:53,516 Speaker 1: about how different parts of this country think about this history, 363 00:21:53,516 --> 00:21:55,436 Speaker 1: then I need more voices beyond my own. So then 364 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:58,116 Speaker 1: I started incorporating other people. And then I was like, well, 365 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:01,236 Speaker 1: I have to bring in the sort of historiography that shapes, 366 00:22:01,636 --> 00:22:05,516 Speaker 1: you know, the things that I'm wrestling with. And so 367 00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: then you bring in the archive, then you bring in 368 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:10,396 Speaker 1: all of these scholars and so you know what's true. 369 00:22:10,396 --> 00:22:11,956 Speaker 1: And I tell this to young writers all the time, 370 00:22:12,036 --> 00:22:15,196 Speaker 1: like what you the fully formed book that you see, 371 00:22:15,876 --> 00:22:18,276 Speaker 1: Like I spent probably like a year and a half 372 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,756 Speaker 1: writing over and over again what I thought would be 373 00:22:22,396 --> 00:22:25,076 Speaker 1: the first chapter of that book, right, and I probably 374 00:22:25,076 --> 00:22:27,676 Speaker 1: wrote like four versions of it. Yeah. Man, the beginnings, 375 00:22:27,716 --> 00:22:29,436 Speaker 1: the beginnings of those kinds of books are always the 376 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 1: hardest because you're like trying to figure out the mode 377 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: of storytelling. I mean absolutely, yeah. My last book, same thing, 378 00:22:36,796 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 1: six months just on that first chapter and many many 379 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 1: efforts that are failed, complete wrong approaching. And the thing 380 00:22:44,516 --> 00:22:46,036 Speaker 1: that I always try to tell people is that, like, 381 00:22:46,596 --> 00:22:48,916 Speaker 1: the way I think about it is it's like you 382 00:22:48,956 --> 00:22:51,236 Speaker 1: can think of it as failure in some way or 383 00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:54,756 Speaker 1: like a sort of necessary failure process I think about it. Yeah, 384 00:22:54,796 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 1: it's and and let's not say that's how you were saying, 385 00:22:56,676 --> 00:22:59,796 Speaker 1: but like I think of it as practice, right, Like 386 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:02,276 Speaker 1: because I played sports my whole life. You know, I 387 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 1: played soccer. You all played tennis, I and you know 388 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 1: you know that you don't just show up to the 389 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:12,236 Speaker 1: game right and like and play and like are good? Right, 390 00:23:12,276 --> 00:23:15,396 Speaker 1: You have to put in hours and hours years of 391 00:23:15,396 --> 00:23:18,036 Speaker 1: work that people never see, so that when you show 392 00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,756 Speaker 1: up to the court or the field, people are seeing 393 00:23:20,756 --> 00:23:24,116 Speaker 1: the manifestation of the work that you put in previously 394 00:23:24,116 --> 00:23:26,356 Speaker 1: and I think of writing the same way. It's like, 395 00:23:26,476 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 1: you know, I spent a year writing, you know, fifty 396 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:35,316 Speaker 1: thousand words that will never leave my computer. That's right. 397 00:23:35,556 --> 00:23:37,636 Speaker 1: So Claion, let's talk. Let's talk a little bit more 398 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:42,996 Speaker 1: about what's in the book, because Ben and I are 399 00:23:43,036 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 1: both fascinated by some of the places you visited for 400 00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 1: personal reasons, and and I'll start. Obviously, you're reporting on 401 00:23:51,716 --> 00:23:55,996 Speaker 1: the Whitney Plantation, which is an extension of your hometown. 402 00:23:56,636 --> 00:24:03,516 Speaker 1: It is today the only museum dedicated to the history 403 00:24:03,876 --> 00:24:07,236 Speaker 1: of enslaved people at a plantation, in this case, a 404 00:24:07,276 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 1: plantation about sugar. It's surrounded by plantations that are often 405 00:24:11,876 --> 00:24:16,796 Speaker 1: sites of museums and tours. So in the country there's 406 00:24:16,836 --> 00:24:20,236 Speaker 1: no other museum dedicated to the history of slavery or 407 00:24:20,316 --> 00:24:24,436 Speaker 1: enslaved people sugar, slavery for sugar. And there are other 408 00:24:24,516 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 1: sites that tell the history of slavery and even have 409 00:24:27,196 --> 00:24:31,796 Speaker 1: our artifacts. But as a plantation, best I know, this 410 00:24:31,876 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: is the only one that is centering the experience of 411 00:24:34,236 --> 00:24:37,636 Speaker 1: the enslaved. And so wrote it. You wrote about this 412 00:24:37,716 --> 00:24:40,196 Speaker 1: for sixteen nineteen. Yeah, yeah, I wrote about it for 413 00:24:40,236 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen. In any case, I was fascinated to read 414 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 1: your own experience on it. I really appreciate it the 415 00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:51,436 Speaker 1: more expansive treatment that you gave it, and I just 416 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 1: wanted to hear you talk, you know, at least a 417 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:59,916 Speaker 1: little bit about something that you took away from the surprise. 418 00:25:00,036 --> 00:25:02,796 Speaker 1: I guess the question, you know, for me to you is, 419 00:25:02,916 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 1: you know what surprised you about the Whitney Plantation as 420 00:25:07,036 --> 00:25:11,676 Speaker 1: opposed to what you expected? Yeah, you know, I had. 421 00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:14,396 Speaker 1: I had previous to that. I went to the Whitney 422 00:25:14,716 --> 00:25:17,396 Speaker 1: in the first time I went would have been late 423 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:24,076 Speaker 1: two thy eighteen, and I had never been to a 424 00:25:24,156 --> 00:25:28,676 Speaker 1: plantation that centered, as you kind of as you mentioned, 425 00:25:28,676 --> 00:25:33,356 Speaker 1: that centered the lives and experiences of enslaved people, And 426 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:36,156 Speaker 1: so it went to this place. I had heard a 427 00:25:36,156 --> 00:25:39,636 Speaker 1: lot about it, obviously, given um some of the fanfare 428 00:25:39,676 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 1: that it had opened to, given its unique role in 429 00:25:42,836 --> 00:25:46,076 Speaker 1: the sort of landscape of American museums, I had. What 430 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,636 Speaker 1: I will say is that part of the issue I 431 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:52,036 Speaker 1: recognized later was that the only first person accounts that 432 00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:56,516 Speaker 1: I had encountered of enslaved people were like Frederick Douglas 433 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 1: and and you know, sort of secondhand versions of like 434 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:02,596 Speaker 1: Harriet Tubman you know, the sort of the kind of 435 00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:06,196 Speaker 1: superstars of slavery, you know, in the way that we 436 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:09,716 Speaker 1: think about them and talk about them. And what happened 437 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:13,356 Speaker 1: that the Whitney is that it gave me insight into 438 00:26:13,396 --> 00:26:19,436 Speaker 1: a set of experiences and voices from ordinary enslave people. 439 00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 1: You know, enslave people who did not escape, enslave people 440 00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:26,076 Speaker 1: who did not teach themselves how to read or write, 441 00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:30,236 Speaker 1: enslave people who did not rescue. You know, dozens and 442 00:26:30,316 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 1: dozens of people coming back and forth. And I understand 443 00:26:33,956 --> 00:26:36,116 Speaker 1: why the stories of Frederick Douglas and Harry Tummen are 444 00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:38,556 Speaker 1: told because they are remarkable. I mean, like they are 445 00:26:38,556 --> 00:26:41,876 Speaker 1: not just remarkable enslave people. The universe doesn't make many 446 00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:44,716 Speaker 1: people like a Frederick Douglas, like a Harria Tummin. I mean, 447 00:26:44,716 --> 00:26:49,036 Speaker 1: these are remarkable people in human history. And what the 448 00:26:49,036 --> 00:26:53,556 Speaker 1: Whitney House makes clear is that the experiences of folks 449 00:26:53,596 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 1: like that are not reflective of the experiences of the 450 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:01,596 Speaker 1: vast majority of enslave people, many of whom were simply 451 00:27:01,636 --> 00:27:06,556 Speaker 1: trying to make create a meaningful life amid the unfathomable 452 00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:10,116 Speaker 1: conditions that they lived in. Ye can I can I 453 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:13,236 Speaker 1: interrupt you? On that point, because I think that's that's 454 00:27:13,316 --> 00:27:17,436 Speaker 1: such a powerful connection to your choices as a writer. 455 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 1: And what I know we've been talking a lot about 456 00:27:20,636 --> 00:27:24,916 Speaker 1: is like how do we choose to explain things and 457 00:27:24,956 --> 00:27:28,516 Speaker 1: the enormity of the crimes against humanity? And what I'm 458 00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 1: hearing you say is that part of the inspiration and 459 00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 1: the surprise of being at Whitney is that people who 460 00:27:35,076 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 1: live through this had the first words themselves. And that's 461 00:27:41,236 --> 00:27:44,476 Speaker 1: such a powerful reminder for you know, for writers in general, 462 00:27:44,716 --> 00:27:48,196 Speaker 1: is that we often discount that the people we're writing 463 00:27:48,236 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 1: about do have a voice and can speak and do 464 00:27:51,276 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: speak for themselves U and even sometimes get it wrong, 465 00:27:56,396 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 1: you know, like a interesting unexpected ways, which you you know, 466 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:03,636 Speaker 1: you also write about in this book, particularly in your 467 00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:06,436 Speaker 1: trip to Gorrie Island. Yeah, I actually wanted to I 468 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 1: wanted to talk about that for a minute, Khalil, because 469 00:28:08,516 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 1: I also took that trip. The last chapter of Clint 470 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:13,836 Speaker 1: of your book, you go to Gorey Island off the 471 00:28:13,876 --> 00:28:17,996 Speaker 1: coast of Senegal, and I took a trip there as well. 472 00:28:18,356 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: And actually my father is an African historian, he's now emeritus, 473 00:28:23,756 --> 00:28:26,796 Speaker 1: and I had tagged along as a young adult with 474 00:28:26,836 --> 00:28:30,036 Speaker 1: a group of African historians and africanists. There was like 475 00:28:30,036 --> 00:28:31,756 Speaker 1: a conference in the Gambia, and I was like, this 476 00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:34,476 Speaker 1: seems like a really interesting way to explore the world. 477 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: I remember that it was nineteen ninety eight because the 478 00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:39,036 Speaker 1: Bulls just won their second three pet and we watched 479 00:28:39,036 --> 00:28:43,316 Speaker 1: it in a bar and the Gambia. Um. Oh man, 480 00:28:43,476 --> 00:28:45,156 Speaker 1: never forget. It was like one of the greatest nights 481 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:46,476 Speaker 1: of my life of my dad and I in this 482 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 1: bar watching it and then swimming at night in the 483 00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:52,316 Speaker 1: Atlantic Ocean together. It was beautiful. I heard that story 484 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:54,516 Speaker 1: if I was if I was Clint, I would turn 485 00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:56,236 Speaker 1: it into a poem because it was really it was 486 00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:59,956 Speaker 1: like um. But then so then you know, you we 487 00:28:59,956 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: we traveled to Senegal to Dakar, and we get on 488 00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:05,116 Speaker 1: this boat just like you did, and you go to 489 00:29:05,156 --> 00:29:10,316 Speaker 1: this island and we went to uh the the Maison 490 00:29:10,436 --> 00:29:13,356 Speaker 1: des Esclaves, the House of Slaves, this this memorial to 491 00:29:13,396 --> 00:29:17,556 Speaker 1: the slave trade. And there you know, there's the it's 492 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:19,916 Speaker 1: called the Door of No Return, is that right? And 493 00:29:20,036 --> 00:29:21,836 Speaker 1: the little door and you look out into the Atlantic 494 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:25,436 Speaker 1: Ocean and this place tells this story of you know 495 00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:28,836 Speaker 1: that millions of enslaved people of Africans were taken here 496 00:29:28,916 --> 00:29:31,156 Speaker 1: from from the continent and taken to the United States 497 00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:34,196 Speaker 1: and taken to the Americas. And as you write in 498 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:36,716 Speaker 1: the book, you know, I'm there with all these historians 499 00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 1: who were like, you know, listening and also assessing. And 500 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:42,196 Speaker 1: my dad I remember saying to me, he was like, 501 00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:45,596 Speaker 1: there's nowhere to dock a ship out this window. It 502 00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: was like there was there was you know, this wasn't 503 00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,596 Speaker 1: a spot where where where where human beings where Like 504 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:53,396 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands, if not millions of human beings were 505 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:56,596 Speaker 1: taken out this door. Um, you know, was like it's 506 00:29:56,596 --> 00:29:59,756 Speaker 1: physically impossible. It was physically power there's nowhere. There was 507 00:29:59,796 --> 00:30:01,876 Speaker 1: nowhere to like dock a ship. And like you're still 508 00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:03,876 Speaker 1: looking out at the ocean and you're thinking about this 509 00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:06,756 Speaker 1: and as you write, like, you know, some of that 510 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:11,356 Speaker 1: memorial sites facts were inaccurate. You know, maybe there were 511 00:30:11,716 --> 00:30:14,156 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of people taken from Gray Island. They 512 00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:17,556 Speaker 1: were sort of stored there before been on this journey. 513 00:30:19,116 --> 00:30:21,436 Speaker 1: And I got to say that neither from my dad 514 00:30:21,556 --> 00:30:25,356 Speaker 1: nor the other historians there, they weren't dismissive. This was 515 00:30:25,436 --> 00:30:29,796 Speaker 1: still loaded with meaning. But they also were pointing out 516 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:33,716 Speaker 1: the inaccuracies they actual like the impossibility of this actual 517 00:30:33,836 --> 00:30:37,956 Speaker 1: site being this this major transportation hub, because that's also 518 00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:40,596 Speaker 1: what they do. They're like telling history and and in 519 00:30:40,756 --> 00:30:42,636 Speaker 1: your book, I mean, it's so striking to talk about 520 00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:46,836 Speaker 1: these memorials and what memory is and what what symbolism 521 00:30:46,996 --> 00:30:51,196 Speaker 1: is too, because you know, you're deep inside of that 522 00:30:51,236 --> 00:30:52,876 Speaker 1: at the end of this book, like what do we 523 00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:57,516 Speaker 1: really want? What do we even need from our these 524 00:30:57,596 --> 00:31:01,756 Speaker 1: memorial sites? I think, Um, I'm so glad, I thank 525 00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:05,356 Speaker 1: you for sharing that story. Um it sounds like a 526 00:31:05,476 --> 00:31:12,476 Speaker 1: really um special inform of experience. Amazing. Yeah, it truly was. 527 00:31:12,756 --> 00:31:15,276 Speaker 1: You know, I think about what I think about with 528 00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:21,436 Speaker 1: Gorey and Gave. I kind of put it in conversation 529 00:31:21,596 --> 00:31:26,236 Speaker 1: with the chapter that starts the book, Monicello, because part 530 00:31:26,316 --> 00:31:31,836 Speaker 1: of what Monticello reveals to me is that these sites 531 00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:36,796 Speaker 1: of history and of memory are not static, and the 532 00:31:36,916 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 1: way they tell the story, the way they once told 533 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,476 Speaker 1: the story, is not how they necessarily have to always 534 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:46,436 Speaker 1: tell the story. And I think Manicello is a place 535 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:51,436 Speaker 1: that I think really is a reflection of the abilities 536 00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:55,716 Speaker 1: for places and sites of memory to evolve in how 537 00:31:55,756 --> 00:31:58,276 Speaker 1: they tell the story of themselves, because how Manicello told 538 00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:02,716 Speaker 1: the story of itself ten twenty, thirty, forty fifty years 539 00:32:02,756 --> 00:32:06,236 Speaker 1: ago is fundamentally different than five years ago. Right, It's 540 00:32:06,276 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 1: like very different than how it tells the story of itself. 541 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:12,996 Speaker 1: This is the Thomas Jefferson, Yeah, Thomas Jefferson's plantation. And 542 00:32:14,476 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: and you know, it's because of the work of scholars 543 00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 1: like a. Net Gordon read. It's because of the descendants 544 00:32:20,676 --> 00:32:23,996 Speaker 1: of people who were enslaved there and insisting that those 545 00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:27,516 Speaker 1: stories of their ancestors be told, right, Because part of 546 00:32:27,556 --> 00:32:29,796 Speaker 1: what we have to remember is that like that Senegal 547 00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:32,636 Speaker 1: was colonized until the sixties, right, and so many of 548 00:32:32,676 --> 00:32:34,756 Speaker 1: the documents, so many of the archives, so many of 549 00:32:34,756 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 1: the histories, so many of the stories that would inform 550 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:39,116 Speaker 1: how that place is able to tell the story of 551 00:32:39,156 --> 00:32:42,636 Speaker 1: itself were taken away or we're dismissed, right, And so 552 00:32:42,956 --> 00:32:46,396 Speaker 1: it's a place that I think is still learning how 553 00:32:46,676 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 1: to tell the story of itself while while at the 554 00:32:49,116 --> 00:32:54,636 Speaker 1: same time honoring the tradition of the histories that have 555 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:58,556 Speaker 1: been passed down in that space. Yeah, we are going 556 00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:02,436 Speaker 1: to take another break, and when we come back, we're 557 00:33:02,476 --> 00:33:06,516 Speaker 1: going to talk about how we write through analogies, historical 558 00:33:06,596 --> 00:33:10,316 Speaker 1: analogies to make sense of the different choices that Americans 559 00:33:10,356 --> 00:33:13,076 Speaker 1: have made to talk about their past and Germans have 560 00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:15,756 Speaker 1: made to talk about their past. We'll be right back 561 00:33:15,796 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 1: after the break. Recently, Clint you published a cover story 562 00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:34,996 Speaker 1: in Atlantic, and I was so eager to read it 563 00:33:35,676 --> 00:33:38,756 Speaker 1: because I saw this as the ninth trip of how 564 00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:42,516 Speaker 1: the word has passed, but this time not just leaving 565 00:33:42,556 --> 00:33:45,276 Speaker 1: the United States. I mean, obviously we just talked about Senegal, 566 00:33:46,316 --> 00:33:49,996 Speaker 1: but leaving the black white story, leaving the story of 567 00:33:50,076 --> 00:33:54,076 Speaker 1: what happened to black people, And it's such a powerful 568 00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:58,516 Speaker 1: way to reveal the water we swim in the United States, 569 00:33:58,596 --> 00:34:01,356 Speaker 1: the way in which we are trapped in a debate 570 00:34:01,476 --> 00:34:05,756 Speaker 1: about how we should remember a past which has mostly 571 00:34:05,836 --> 00:34:09,276 Speaker 1: been soaked through with white supremacy and Confederate monument men, 572 00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:13,476 Speaker 1: and the erasier and the ongoing right now erasier of 573 00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:16,636 Speaker 1: black history and black studies, whether it's anti CRT bills 574 00:34:16,716 --> 00:34:21,276 Speaker 1: or whether it's the now meddling with and altering of 575 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:25,316 Speaker 1: an ap African American studies class. And so share a 576 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:28,476 Speaker 1: little bit about the insights you gleaned when you walked 577 00:34:28,516 --> 00:34:32,116 Speaker 1: to the streets of Berlin and saw up close to 578 00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:35,956 Speaker 1: witness and to write about what happened during the Holocaust 579 00:34:35,996 --> 00:34:39,836 Speaker 1: in that country. Yeah, I mean, there's, man, there's so 580 00:34:39,956 --> 00:34:42,316 Speaker 1: much to say. But you know, one of the reason 581 00:34:42,396 --> 00:34:45,996 Speaker 1: that I went to Germany is because as I was 582 00:34:46,196 --> 00:34:49,396 Speaker 1: on book tour for How the Words Passed, people would 583 00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:52,396 Speaker 1: often say, you know, well, you talk about America sort 584 00:34:52,436 --> 00:34:55,796 Speaker 1: of largely failing to reckon with this relationship to the 585 00:34:55,916 --> 00:34:59,076 Speaker 1: history of chattel slavery and indigenous genocide, and well, what's 586 00:34:59,116 --> 00:35:01,036 Speaker 1: the place that's doing it well? And I would always 587 00:35:01,036 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, Germany is doing this, Germany 588 00:35:03,516 --> 00:35:06,796 Speaker 1: is doing that. Germany has this memorial, Germany has that monument. 589 00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:09,396 Speaker 1: And there came a point where I was like, I 590 00:35:09,556 --> 00:35:12,756 Speaker 1: keep talking about the memorials in Germany, and I've never 591 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:14,876 Speaker 1: been to the memorials in Germany, right, And so it 592 00:35:15,036 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 1: felt disingenuous to me to continue to talk about this 593 00:35:19,556 --> 00:35:23,396 Speaker 1: thing that I hadn't encountered myself. And so went over 594 00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:26,756 Speaker 1: to Germany initially spent a week there and traveled to 595 00:35:26,836 --> 00:35:30,596 Speaker 1: all these different sites of memory, the train stations from 596 00:35:30,636 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 1: which Jewish people were deported and sent to death camps, 597 00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 1: the memorial to the murder Jews of Europe, this massive 598 00:35:37,836 --> 00:35:40,276 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand square foot monument in the middle of 599 00:35:40,316 --> 00:35:44,196 Speaker 1: downtown Berlin. You know. Then there's the Stolperstein or the 600 00:35:44,316 --> 00:35:48,396 Speaker 1: Stumbling Stones, the largest decentralized memorial in the world, the 601 00:35:49,076 --> 00:35:52,796 Speaker 1: seventy thousand brass stones across thirty different European countries that 602 00:35:52,836 --> 00:35:55,436 Speaker 1: are placed in front of the homes where Jewish people 603 00:35:55,476 --> 00:35:57,716 Speaker 1: and others who were persecuted by the Nazis were taken 604 00:35:57,836 --> 00:36:00,956 Speaker 1: from before they were sent to these death camps. I 605 00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:06,116 Speaker 1: wanted to understand how Germany tells the story of its past, 606 00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:09,956 Speaker 1: and part of what it was revealed is that there 607 00:36:10,116 --> 00:36:14,116 Speaker 1: is a level of complexity and nuance in the sense 608 00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:20,636 Speaker 1: that many Jewish people in Germany have very different ideas 609 00:36:20,916 --> 00:36:25,476 Speaker 1: about the efficacy and the texture of these different memorials. 610 00:36:25,556 --> 00:36:28,596 Speaker 1: There are some who really love the Stumbling Stones and 611 00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 1: who think it's so meaningful to place these intimate objects 612 00:36:32,836 --> 00:36:37,396 Speaker 1: that sort of symbolize individual Jewish people on the ground 613 00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:39,876 Speaker 1: in front of the places where they once lived. Other 614 00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:43,956 Speaker 1: people think it's fundamentally disrespectful to place the names of 615 00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:47,236 Speaker 1: Jewish people on the ground. Some people think that the 616 00:36:48,556 --> 00:36:52,556 Speaker 1: memorial to the murder Jews of Europe is the size 617 00:36:52,596 --> 00:36:57,116 Speaker 1: and scale of it conveys the horror of mity, worse 618 00:36:57,236 --> 00:37:00,476 Speaker 1: genocide in modern history, and the enormity of it. Other 619 00:37:00,596 --> 00:37:04,356 Speaker 1: people think it's too abstract and too passive, and this 620 00:37:04,556 --> 00:37:07,436 Speaker 1: was really important for me because obviously no group of 621 00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:11,196 Speaker 1: people is homogeneous in their sensibilities and their thinking. But 622 00:37:11,276 --> 00:37:13,516 Speaker 1: it was just important to be reminded there like, oh, 623 00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:17,476 Speaker 1: even there is no consensus, so to speak, on what 624 00:37:17,676 --> 00:37:20,596 Speaker 1: these monuments are, how they work. And the other thing too, 625 00:37:20,996 --> 00:37:23,676 Speaker 1: that I hadn't fully considered until I was there, was 626 00:37:23,796 --> 00:37:27,076 Speaker 1: that one of the primary differences between how Germany grapples 627 00:37:27,116 --> 00:37:29,116 Speaker 1: with his past and how the United States grapples with 628 00:37:29,196 --> 00:37:32,636 Speaker 1: his past is that there just aren't a lot of 629 00:37:32,716 --> 00:37:36,276 Speaker 1: Jewish people left in Germany. Yeah. You use this great 630 00:37:36,316 --> 00:37:39,716 Speaker 1: example of Angola Prison, which was a former plantation, and 631 00:37:39,796 --> 00:37:42,076 Speaker 1: you're like, it'd be like if there was a prison 632 00:37:42,556 --> 00:37:47,436 Speaker 1: built on top of concentration camp and the two thirds 633 00:37:47,476 --> 00:37:49,796 Speaker 1: of the population of the people in carcer there were Jewish. 634 00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:53,596 Speaker 1: But yeah, but you know, that's that's Louisiana. But in 635 00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:56,316 Speaker 1: in Germany, they're just aren't that many Jews around. It's 636 00:37:56,316 --> 00:37:59,636 Speaker 1: an abstraction, as you said, yeah, yeah, I mean there's 637 00:37:59,756 --> 00:38:03,316 Speaker 1: there's I think Jewish people are less than a quarter 638 00:38:03,436 --> 00:38:06,276 Speaker 1: of a percent of the population, right Like, there are 639 00:38:06,316 --> 00:38:08,556 Speaker 1: more Jewish people in the city of Boston than there 640 00:38:08,596 --> 00:38:10,596 Speaker 1: are in all of Germany. And I don't think I 641 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:12,556 Speaker 1: fully understood that. And so the thing is, you know, 642 00:38:12,636 --> 00:38:14,076 Speaker 1: one of the women I was talking to that I 643 00:38:14,156 --> 00:38:16,716 Speaker 1: talk about in the piece, she was like, it's easy 644 00:38:16,796 --> 00:38:20,796 Speaker 1: for Germans to build monuments and memorials to Jewish people 645 00:38:21,196 --> 00:38:24,356 Speaker 1: and to the Holocaust because we're more of a historical 646 00:38:24,436 --> 00:38:28,516 Speaker 1: abstraction than we are actual people, right Like, most Germans 647 00:38:28,636 --> 00:38:32,276 Speaker 1: don't know a Jewish person. And as this woman put it, 648 00:38:32,836 --> 00:38:37,596 Speaker 1: this Jewish historian, she was saying, you know, Judaism is 649 00:38:37,636 --> 00:38:45,436 Speaker 1: almost an empty canvas upon which Germans can paint their contrition. Right. 650 00:38:45,556 --> 00:38:48,716 Speaker 1: And then in the United States that's very different. There's 651 00:38:48,756 --> 00:38:51,156 Speaker 1: tens of millions of us who are the descendants of 652 00:38:51,316 --> 00:38:53,676 Speaker 1: enslaved people. So you can't simply lay down a wreath 653 00:38:54,116 --> 00:38:56,276 Speaker 1: or build a memorial, or build a monument and say, 654 00:38:56,396 --> 00:38:58,996 Speaker 1: oh man, this was really terrible, We're so sorry that 655 00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:02,436 Speaker 1: this happened. If you're not going to also engage in 656 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:06,996 Speaker 1: material interventions that make amends for the harm that has 657 00:39:07,036 --> 00:39:10,236 Speaker 1: been done because those people are still year and so 658 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:14,076 Speaker 1: that creates a lack of willingness with which to even 659 00:39:14,156 --> 00:39:17,276 Speaker 1: begin to engage that history. And I think it's fundamentally 660 00:39:17,316 --> 00:39:20,436 Speaker 1: tied to so much of what we see um happening 661 00:39:20,676 --> 00:39:23,836 Speaker 1: in our sort of in the landscape of education around 662 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:26,636 Speaker 1: these That's right, that's right man. I will say Clint, 663 00:39:26,756 --> 00:39:30,236 Speaker 1: that that reading that piece and and wrestling with myself 664 00:39:31,036 --> 00:39:34,676 Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying, like the absurdity that in the 665 00:39:34,796 --> 00:39:37,716 Speaker 1: United States that we don't we don't grapple with our 666 00:39:38,076 --> 00:39:42,636 Speaker 1: with our past of chattel slavery, of indigenous genocide. That 667 00:39:42,836 --> 00:39:45,076 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, it is that it is our 668 00:39:45,156 --> 00:39:47,636 Speaker 1: past and we should be wrestling with it. And at 669 00:39:47,716 --> 00:39:51,196 Speaker 1: the same time it shows like that it's whatever ways 670 00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:54,796 Speaker 1: we do, it's going to be complicated. Um. Also, in 671 00:39:54,836 --> 00:39:56,996 Speaker 1: this conversation with you two guys, both of whom have 672 00:39:57,076 --> 00:39:59,916 Speaker 1: gotten to these memorial sites, like I'm the one person 673 00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:02,716 Speaker 1: who is not only Jewish, but whose father was born 674 00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:05,916 Speaker 1: in Nazi Germany and escaped as a child at three 675 00:40:05,996 --> 00:40:08,636 Speaker 1: year old with his parents, Like I gotta go, I 676 00:40:08,716 --> 00:40:10,636 Speaker 1: can't be out here like this, like I can't have 677 00:40:10,756 --> 00:40:14,076 Speaker 1: YouTube guys like like like I'm feeling like how you felt, Clint, 678 00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:18,316 Speaker 1: Like I'm talking about this, but I've never been to Germany. Yeah, 679 00:40:18,596 --> 00:40:20,836 Speaker 1: and you know, one of one of the ways. Even 680 00:40:20,916 --> 00:40:23,396 Speaker 1: but even that, like that's that's so interesting to me 681 00:40:23,516 --> 00:40:26,276 Speaker 1: because I met so many people who are like that, 682 00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:29,316 Speaker 1: and not because they haven't thought about it, because they 683 00:40:29,356 --> 00:40:32,116 Speaker 1: were like, no, none, like we don't go to Jaman 684 00:40:32,276 --> 00:40:34,676 Speaker 1: like their parents had instilled in them. And I don't 685 00:40:34,676 --> 00:40:35,836 Speaker 1: know if this is the case for you, but it 686 00:40:35,916 --> 00:40:37,316 Speaker 1: just makes me think of all the people I talked 687 00:40:37,316 --> 00:40:40,276 Speaker 1: to who are like, why would I ever go back 688 00:40:40,356 --> 00:40:43,196 Speaker 1: to that place? Yea. And so it's just interesting the 689 00:40:43,236 --> 00:40:47,796 Speaker 1: way that those sort of messages, either explicitly or more subtly, 690 00:40:48,116 --> 00:40:51,556 Speaker 1: sort of get passed down across generations. Yeah, man, Clint, 691 00:40:51,596 --> 00:40:53,916 Speaker 1: I am so glad that we got to do this, 692 00:40:54,156 --> 00:40:55,916 Speaker 1: that we got to sit down and have this conversation. 693 00:40:56,076 --> 00:41:00,716 Speaker 1: You are doing amazing work and it's just, uh, it's 694 00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:02,836 Speaker 1: making me think of all kinds of things and it's 695 00:41:02,876 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 1: inspiring my own work. So thank you. Yeah. Yeah, same 696 00:41:05,916 --> 00:41:09,316 Speaker 1: here man, And the power of your work and the 697 00:41:09,436 --> 00:41:12,436 Speaker 1: stories you're telling and the way you're reaching from the 698 00:41:12,556 --> 00:41:15,316 Speaker 1: youngest who can hear and learn something in your poetry, 699 00:41:15,716 --> 00:41:18,596 Speaker 1: to the oldest who's reading the Atlantic or reading your books, 700 00:41:19,196 --> 00:41:22,996 Speaker 1: is in reminding us that we all have choices and 701 00:41:23,676 --> 00:41:27,276 Speaker 1: we can change those choices too, And so that's the 702 00:41:27,396 --> 00:41:29,876 Speaker 1: hope in all of this, that we can choose differently, 703 00:41:30,196 --> 00:41:33,556 Speaker 1: and I am hopeful that as people encounter your work 704 00:41:34,236 --> 00:41:37,516 Speaker 1: they will make different choices in the future. I appreciate that. 705 00:41:37,596 --> 00:41:46,796 Speaker 1: It's very generous of you. It's been a real pleasure. Wow, 706 00:41:46,876 --> 00:41:50,876 Speaker 1: what a powerful conversation, and what an amazing speaker and writer. 707 00:41:51,316 --> 00:41:55,836 Speaker 1: Just really lovely person, lovely person and just very moving 708 00:41:55,996 --> 00:42:01,476 Speaker 1: and something I was really struck by when he talked 709 00:42:01,516 --> 00:42:04,236 Speaker 1: about the fact that so much of what he has 710 00:42:04,756 --> 00:42:08,596 Speaker 1: seen in Germany turns on the fact that there are 711 00:42:08,676 --> 00:42:12,076 Speaker 1: just very few Jews there, and you know, you talked 712 00:42:12,076 --> 00:42:14,276 Speaker 1: about not having been there yourself, and I just I 713 00:42:14,356 --> 00:42:16,356 Speaker 1: wanted to know, like, you know, is this something that 714 00:42:16,396 --> 00:42:18,596 Speaker 1: you've struggled with. I mean, have you had a conversation 715 00:42:18,676 --> 00:42:20,876 Speaker 1: with your parents, have you have you thought about this 716 00:42:21,196 --> 00:42:25,156 Speaker 1: beyond just this conversation. Yeah. Yeah, Clint had said that 717 00:42:25,276 --> 00:42:27,196 Speaker 1: there he ran into a lot of Jewish people who 718 00:42:27,196 --> 00:42:29,716 Speaker 1: are like I'll never go back to Germany. For me, 719 00:42:29,836 --> 00:42:31,996 Speaker 1: it's mostly like I just have money for the plane ticket. 720 00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:36,916 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, No, no, you visited South Africa, you 721 00:42:36,996 --> 00:42:39,876 Speaker 1: can't get to Germany. Come on. So, So the truth 722 00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:43,196 Speaker 1: is my grandparents who fled Nazi Germany with my father 723 00:42:43,436 --> 00:42:45,316 Speaker 1: when he was a little boy. They moved to the 724 00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:48,796 Speaker 1: United States. When I was a kid, they decided to 725 00:42:48,916 --> 00:42:52,116 Speaker 1: leave America and moved back to Europe, and so they 726 00:42:52,356 --> 00:42:56,476 Speaker 1: they ended up living in Switzerland and visited Germany many times. 727 00:42:56,516 --> 00:42:59,436 Speaker 1: And my father also has visited Germany more than once, 728 00:42:59,876 --> 00:43:03,716 Speaker 1: many times. I just haven't been. I'm actually curious. I 729 00:43:03,876 --> 00:43:06,036 Speaker 1: want to go. So it's not a choice that I 730 00:43:06,116 --> 00:43:09,076 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, this is a place like its 731 00:43:09,236 --> 00:43:13,036 Speaker 1: verboden to use a German word, that I shouldn't go there. Yeah, well, 732 00:43:13,396 --> 00:43:16,556 Speaker 1: I mean, just to to extend this one one minute further, like, 733 00:43:17,236 --> 00:43:20,596 Speaker 1: I mean, given that your grandparents moved back to Europe 734 00:43:20,636 --> 00:43:23,196 Speaker 1: and your father's been multiple times, so like, what is 735 00:43:23,316 --> 00:43:26,636 Speaker 1: the story for that's passed on? How How has the 736 00:43:26,716 --> 00:43:30,796 Speaker 1: word been passed on to you about that history? Man? 737 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:36,196 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I mean, in a way, it's there, 738 00:43:36,596 --> 00:43:40,756 Speaker 1: it's not spoken in some ways, and it's when it 739 00:43:40,996 --> 00:43:44,396 Speaker 1: is there are sort of these gaps. I think as well. 740 00:43:44,476 --> 00:43:45,996 Speaker 1: You know my dad who was very little, and he 741 00:43:46,276 --> 00:43:48,996 Speaker 1: fills in some of these stories. He doesn't talk about 742 00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:51,076 Speaker 1: it in a way that that this is something we 743 00:43:51,116 --> 00:43:53,396 Speaker 1: should avoid. And I don't think there's anything in my 744 00:43:53,476 --> 00:43:57,396 Speaker 1: family like this is off limits. Um, but it's still 745 00:43:57,956 --> 00:44:00,876 Speaker 1: you know, there is this. It's part of being Jewish, 746 00:44:01,316 --> 00:44:04,116 Speaker 1: is that this is you know, Jewish in the twentieth 747 00:44:04,156 --> 00:44:06,876 Speaker 1: and twenty first century, that this is this is part 748 00:44:06,916 --> 00:44:09,556 Speaker 1: of this immense experience that that we have, that this 749 00:44:09,796 --> 00:44:15,996 Speaker 1: is this is this trauma, this genocide is there. Yeah, yeah, 750 00:44:17,116 --> 00:44:21,356 Speaker 1: ooh well, um, I'm gonna look forward to either being 751 00:44:21,436 --> 00:44:23,836 Speaker 1: there with you when you go or being the first 752 00:44:23,876 --> 00:44:25,756 Speaker 1: to hear about it. No. I was when you were 753 00:44:25,756 --> 00:44:28,516 Speaker 1: telling me about your trip, I again thought I needed 754 00:44:28,556 --> 00:44:31,276 Speaker 1: to go, and I will. I mean, I think Pushkin's 755 00:44:31,316 --> 00:44:34,316 Speaker 1: gonna pay for it. They're willing to send us. Let's go. 756 00:44:35,636 --> 00:44:39,196 Speaker 1: All right, all right, man, all right, love you, love 757 00:44:39,236 --> 00:44:47,236 Speaker 1: you too. Some of My Best Friends Are is a 758 00:44:47,316 --> 00:44:51,036 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted 759 00:44:51,076 --> 00:44:54,556 Speaker 1: by me Khalil Gibran Mohammed and my best friend Ben Austin. 760 00:44:54,956 --> 00:44:58,436 Speaker 1: This show is produced by Lucy Sullivan. It's edited by 761 00:44:58,516 --> 00:45:02,356 Speaker 1: Sarah Knicks with help from Kishe Williams. Our engineer is 762 00:45:02,396 --> 00:45:08,396 Speaker 1: Amanda Kwan, and our managing producer is Constanza Gallardo. At 763 00:45:08,436 --> 00:45:13,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin thanks to Leta Mulad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, 764 00:45:14,436 --> 00:45:20,196 Speaker 1: John Schnars, Rettakone, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, 765 00:45:20,596 --> 00:45:24,156 Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan the Brilliant Avery R. Young, from 766 00:45:24,196 --> 00:45:26,916 Speaker 1: his album Tubman. You definitely want to check out his 767 00:45:27,076 --> 00:45:29,956 Speaker 1: music at his website, Avery R. Young dot com. You 768 00:45:30,036 --> 00:45:33,476 Speaker 1: can find Pushkin on all social platforms at pushkin Pods, 769 00:45:33,836 --> 00:45:36,436 Speaker 1: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin 770 00:45:36,516 --> 00:45:40,276 Speaker 1: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the 771 00:45:40,396 --> 00:45:44,316 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 772 00:45:44,716 --> 00:45:47,076 Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a 773 00:45:47,156 --> 00:45:49,756 Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if 774 00:45:49,756 --> 00:45:51,396 Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 775 00:45:51,436 --> 00:45:54,276 Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best 776 00:45:54,356 --> 00:46:10,316 Speaker 1: friends about it. Thank you, Change said