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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you from house top

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Speaker 1: works not com Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I gotta confess something

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Speaker 1: to you right off the bat. Partially my motivation for

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Speaker 1: wanting to talk about women and weightlifting was to motivate

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Speaker 1: myself to lift some weights. Already, so good for you,

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Speaker 1: it's so good for you. When was the last time

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Speaker 1: you went into a gym or anywhere and did some weightlifting.

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Speaker 1: I have some some five pound free weight dumbbell things

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Speaker 1: that doesn't answer my question, Um, I own some. I'll

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Speaker 1: just say that they won't at him. Yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: we look at each other and we're like, hey, what's

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Speaker 1: up dumbbells that are green. I'm the quintessential woman exerciser

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Speaker 1: because I do cardio, I do yoga. I don't touch

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Speaker 1: a weight. I know, and it's so it's so bad

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Speaker 1: not to. I mean, cardio is great for you, Yoga

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Speaker 1: is great for you. You You have so you need the

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Speaker 1: cardio to keep your heart ticking along in shape. You

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Speaker 1: need the yoga to stay flexible, so you don't like

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Speaker 1: bend over and get all hunched over and you can't

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Speaker 1: touch your toes or tie your shoelaces, and and I

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Speaker 1: need my noma stays, and I must stay y'all, You've

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Speaker 1: got to be calm and breathe and center yourself in

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Speaker 1: the moment. But it's that weight work, that weight training

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Speaker 1: that actually helps your muscles, keep you healthy, keeps your

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Speaker 1: metabolism up, helps align your spine. It's not your bones

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Speaker 1: that are telling your muscles where to go. It's your

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Speaker 1: muscles that are telling your bones where to go. Gossiping mucles, well,

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Speaker 1: not gossipy muscles. And we're going to talk about women

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Speaker 1: and weightlifting today, not only so that I can get

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Speaker 1: my fitness regimen more well rounded for long term health,

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Speaker 1: but also because there's so many intersections of gender within

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Speaker 1: our resistance Ladies to resistance training. Oh yeah, how many

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Speaker 1: times have you heard somebody says something mean and judgmental,

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Speaker 1: uh and awful about Madonna? I mean, I know she's

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Speaker 1: just one example, but like, she's what came to mind

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Speaker 1: when I was reading about the resistance as you say,

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Speaker 1: to resistance training, because people are like, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to let gross and nobby and musclely like Madonna. She

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Speaker 1: has a sinewy arm, she has sinewy arms. But she's

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Speaker 1: doing what she needs to to get those bossy muscles,

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Speaker 1: telling her bones what to do. Well, she's got a

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Speaker 1: great metabolism because of it. Good for her. I wish

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Speaker 1: I had someone coming to my house and telling me

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Speaker 1: what to do and my muscles, but I don't. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you can just listen to this podcast. Okay, Oh, I

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Speaker 1: wonder what we're gonna say. Well, we're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: not just why weights are good for you, because I

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Speaker 1: have a feeling a lot of us know that, but

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Speaker 1: we're gonna remind you of that. But we're also going

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Speaker 1: to talk about some history. Y'all love that. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: do some myth busting God y'all love that too, and

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Speaker 1: some gender norm and that's our bread and butter weightlifting snacks.

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Speaker 1: So first off, let's let's get the crust of the

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Speaker 1: snack out of the way. Let's talk about some basic

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Speaker 1: benefits to weightlifting. You're gonna improve those bossing muscle tones.

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Speaker 1: You're going to improve your bone density, your athletic performance,

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Speaker 1: and your strength. Heck yeah, man, let's be strong. Let's

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Speaker 1: be strong, and let's not forget about the amazing benefits

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Speaker 1: of maintaining that lean muscle tissue that helps easing the

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Speaker 1: visible aging process. You're going to the drug store, You're

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Speaker 1: showing out all that money for those retinal creams for

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Speaker 1: your under eyes. Well wait, lift. You can't wait, lift

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Speaker 1: for your under eyes. I'm sorry, but it is proven

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Speaker 1: that if you do lift weights, you will look eighteen

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Speaker 1: at sixty. That's that's right here, that's co signed by

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Speaker 1: C and C. And you can also benefit from improved

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Speaker 1: self esteem, a stronger immune system. It actually reduces your

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Speaker 1: diabetes risk and lowers your resting heart rate and blood pressure,

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Speaker 1: especially Kristen, when you combine it with your cardio. That's right.

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Speaker 1: And then this was a term I had not heard

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Speaker 1: before called functional fitness, which if you have a little

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Speaker 1: one running around at home, that's just you know, making

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Speaker 1: it easier to pick up a toddler or a boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, tote them over your shoulder. You know,

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Speaker 1: we didn't specify which toddler you can pick up other toddlers,

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Speaker 1: but ask permission. Yeah yeah, maybe not the sidewalk scoop.

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Speaker 1: Let's not alarm other parents, or if few or more

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Speaker 1: like Caroline and me, maybe you have a sizeable cat

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Speaker 1: main coon owners. There you go. I do have a

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Speaker 1: friend of the main coon. I have a very old

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Speaker 1: black lab and he has trouble getting up hills and

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Speaker 1: stairs sometimes, and I could use some more functional fitness

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Speaker 1: to help lift buddy up. I know it's just because

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Speaker 1: then when he falls, then I try to lift him,

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Speaker 1: but I can't really do it, so then we're just

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Speaker 1: a mess. You should get him one of those harnesses

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Speaker 1: with wheels, or I should start lifting weights. You should

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Speaker 1: get him one of those ready is far too dignified

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Speaker 1: for that. And you know we mentioned aging, it's it's

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Speaker 1: super important to lift weights of some variety. This also

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Speaker 1: includes like just lifting your body weight, doing things like

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Speaker 1: lunges and push ups as you age, because in our

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Speaker 1: mid thirties, we women start losing five to ten of

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Speaker 1: our muscle strength each decade, and this has a big

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Speaker 1: impact on our metabolism because muscle and we should all

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Speaker 1: know the us too. This is just really restating it

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Speaker 1: for to get us all to go to the gym.

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Speaker 1: But muscle burns three times more calories than fat does,

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Speaker 1: so we've established it. Ye, go to the gym, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: go to the gym. Well, you don't even have to

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Speaker 1: go to the gym. I didn't. You can lift weights anywhere.

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Speaker 1: I know you can take them on the go. You

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Speaker 1: can do it while you're listening to podcasts. You should, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I should do while I research the podcast You go.

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Speaker 1: We now listeners. Caroline and I both now have stand

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Speaker 1: up desks at our house, stuff works office. We could

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Speaker 1: get some free weights going. I bet our our boss

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Speaker 1: would love it. He'd be so happy that his employees

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Speaker 1: are healthy. Yeah. Um, so now we've established though the

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Speaker 1: benefits here. Here's a more interesting part of all of

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Speaker 1: this is that it has taken us so long to

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Speaker 1: even recognize all of those benefits, especially for women, because

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Speaker 1: there has historically been a lot of cultural taboo and

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Speaker 1: miss guided ideas about how weight training would affect the

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Speaker 1: female body. Yeah. Of course, we've got all those early

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Speaker 1: concerns about our participation and strenuous activities, that our uterus

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Speaker 1: is just gonna like fly out of control, um, and

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Speaker 1: it would harm our fertility. Yeah, and that it was

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Speaker 1: way too masculine. And of course that's still a thing.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people still think it's super abnormal for

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Speaker 1: women to be an athlete of any sort, let alone

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Speaker 1: a weightlifter. Um, But we got a lot of interesting

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Speaker 1: information about the history of women and weights from the

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Speaker 1: origins of weight training for female athletes in North America

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Speaker 1: by Jan Todd and this really interesting look at early

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Speaker 1: celebrity in this country, which is the center ring Katie

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Speaker 1: San Dwina and the construction of celebrity, also by Jan

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Speaker 1: Todds and Jan Todd. If you're listening, shout out hey,

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Speaker 1: so Todd Trace says the real kickoff for women in

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Speaker 1: weight training in the United States to eighteen sixty two

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Speaker 1: and one doctor Diocletian Lewis, who publishes the New Gymnastics

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Speaker 1: for Men, women and children, which feature the use of

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Speaker 1: lightweight dumbbells, Indian clubs that look a lot like bowling

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Speaker 1: pins and waited wands. Are they magic ones? I hope so?

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Speaker 1: Fifty buffety though, and Louis notably thought this was pretty

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Speaker 1: revolutionary for the time, that women were as suitable for

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Speaker 1: magical wand lifting as men were. And so you see

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Speaker 1: a number of women's colleges starting to adopt phizzed programs

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Speaker 1: based on Louis's curriculum. Yeah, is it any coincidence that

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Speaker 1: these are at North A lot of them are at

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Speaker 1: Northeastern Colleges, which is also the cradle of of women's colleges.

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Speaker 1: It is not It's not a coincidence. Yeah, and weightlifting

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Speaker 1: was often considered a part of health, a part of gymnastics,

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Speaker 1: and that gymnastics was often a prerequisite before women were

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Speaker 1: allowed to other sports. It's like, well, we've got to

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Speaker 1: know that you're fit enough to you know, your uterus

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Speaker 1: won't collapse. Um if you're like playing basketball. Well, and

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Speaker 1: we should note too that while you might hear gymnastics

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Speaker 1: and think somersaults and handstands, this was more gymnastics in

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Speaker 1: the sense of just basic fitness. So twirling Indian clubs

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Speaker 1: and things like that, I don't think you actually twirled them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you do with them. Someone tell us.

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Speaker 1: But we need to call it old die Letian Lewis. Well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and despite the fact that generally, at large, most

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Speaker 1: people were still against the idea of women participating in

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Speaker 1: sports and doing things like lifting dumbbells, you get Bernar

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Speaker 1: mc fadden who publishes this influential turn of the century

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Speaker 1: magazine called Physical Culture, which also promoted women's weightlifting in gymnastics. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He published a letter in his magazine from one Dorothy

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Speaker 1: Alden Becker, who wrote about how exercise transformed her life.

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Speaker 1: Quote so that today there's not a single muscle in

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Speaker 1: my body which is naughty. And of course she doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean not even badge means k and O, T T

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Speaker 1: why or unbecoming to the female figure. And Jan Todd

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Speaker 1: notes that Becker's letter is one of the earliest known

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Speaker 1: references to a woman using resistance training to enhance her

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Speaker 1: sports performance. And this is a really crucial time around

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Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century for physical culture, and

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Speaker 1: this is when we first start to see people exercising

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Speaker 1: for the sake of health, going out of their way

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Speaker 1: to write a bicycle or take a little jog. Perhaps. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because Becker, the one who wrote the letter, was saying

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Speaker 1: that weightlifting not only made her healthier, but it improved

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Speaker 1: her swimming, her diving, and Kristen her headstands well on

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Speaker 1: a surfboard. No way, way, this was so early, And

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Speaker 1: that's what I was so surprised about, because I was

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Speaker 1: I just was under the impression that surfing didn't really

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Speaker 1: catch on with like white people until about the fifties.

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Speaker 1: But well, it looks like We've got a podcast we

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Speaker 1: need to do. Got to dig it up more. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: more on on Dorothy alden Becker perhaps, But but it

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Speaker 1: is shortly after the turn of the century that we

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Speaker 1: see the rise of celebrity culture around this fabulous woman

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Speaker 1: named Katie Sanduina. Yes, our our sister podcast Stuff You

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Speaker 1: Missed in History Class has done an entire episode on her,

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Speaker 1: so I highly recommend you listen to that for more

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Speaker 1: in depth info on her biography. But sand Weena was

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Speaker 1: a Barnum and Bailey strong woman who was successfully promoted

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Speaker 1: as not only super strong but also attractive. And it

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Speaker 1: was that crucial combination of her being both strong enough

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Speaker 1: to lift her husband, Max Siman, her head, but also

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Speaker 1: pretty enough for you know, people to still consider her

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Speaker 1: a lady that made her so successful at this time.

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Speaker 1: Although Todd does note that around this time there was

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Speaker 1: still a quote unquote titan esque beauty idea that did

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Speaker 1: embrace a fuller figure, but that full figure would not

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Speaker 1: necessarily have been considered strong. Yeah. So, in an article

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Speaker 1: promoting Sandwena and her fellow gymnasts and strong people, she's

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Speaker 1: described as majestic as the Sphinx, as pretty as a

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Speaker 1: Valentine as sentimental as a German school girl, and as

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Speaker 1: wholesome Kristen as a great big slice of bread and butter.

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Speaker 1: There we go full circle. Already German listeners are schoolgirls sentimental?

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Speaker 1: Side question, I'm not sure what that's a reference to,

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Speaker 1: But very early on we start to see these these

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Speaker 1: questions of how one maintains femininity and muscularity at the

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Speaker 1: same time, because Sandwena was able to do it, but

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Speaker 1: it was through a concerted pr effort. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: In this article that we were talking about about Katie Sanduina,

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Speaker 1: her maternal nature and her femininity are strongly emphasized to

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Speaker 1: sort of be a counterpoint to the very deviant and

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Speaker 1: masculine activity of being so strong and lifting weights. And

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Speaker 1: that was a key foundation of her celebrity. That, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: someone who's so strong and yet so lovely and so

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Speaker 1: how is it possible with her big head. I really

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Speaker 1: can't get over that. They were like her big. She's

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Speaker 1: got a huge head. They were obsessed with the size

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Speaker 1: of her head, and it just makes her features look

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Speaker 1: even more delightful. Um. But there was an article in

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Speaker 1: the issue of Strength magazine asking is strength masculine and

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Speaker 1: weakness feminine and and write. The conclusion they came to was, no,

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Speaker 1: that we don't support this whole clinging vine notion of femininity.

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Speaker 1: It's not cool. We've got to let go of these

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Speaker 1: old fashioned notions of what women can't do. Right on

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Speaker 1: Strength magazine. Yeah, the issue came up again three years

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Speaker 1: later in the article headlined our girl athletes masculine. The

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Speaker 1: female athlete personifies the highest type of womanhood and has

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Speaker 1: proven decidedly feminine. I like how there's just a total

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Speaker 1: spoiler in that in that study title, and it didn't

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Speaker 1: help it at the time in the nineteen twenties that

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Speaker 1: many of the major female celebs were athletes like figure

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Speaker 1: skater Sonja Henny and swimmer and Net Kellerman, who whom

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Speaker 1: we've talked about on the podcast before. What I thought

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Speaker 1: was so interesting and I did not remember this about

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Speaker 1: a Net Kellerman. She's a former swimmer and then an

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Speaker 1: actress that she wrote the first in eighteen, the first

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Speaker 1: celebrity exercise book, and she invented the one piece suit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and in her books she encouraged the use of dumbbells.

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Speaker 1: So you've got to wonder if she is she round

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Speaker 1: the house and her in her swimsuit lifting barbells quite possibly,

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Speaker 1: or maybe she's swimming while lifting barbells. So so doing

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Speaker 1: things with bart that she invented water a robic ladies

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Speaker 1: and gentlemen. Um. There were also some milestones in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. You have British weightlifter, slash fencer, slash sprinter,

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Speaker 1: slash wrestler, multi hyphen yes, Ivy Russell, who championed for

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Speaker 1: women's inclusion in weightlifting competitions. Um and Russell is another

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Speaker 1: one of these figures whose success was partially linked to

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Speaker 1: her more feminine physique, because she had a small frame

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Speaker 1: and an ample bust size that made her antithetical to

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Speaker 1: the ideal of what a strong woman should look like.

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Speaker 1: So from the get go, something that we still see

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Speaker 1: today is that comfort that the public at large takes

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Speaker 1: from not being too surprised that the way a woman

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Speaker 1: presents herself was like, Okay, she still reads as a woman.

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Speaker 1: This is comforting to me. Please continue to be a weightlifter.

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Speaker 1: You're not scaring me. And someone who was not scared

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Speaker 1: of that, Caroline, how about that transition and love? It

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Speaker 1: was Bob Hoffman, this guy launched Strength and Health magazine

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Speaker 1: and nineteen thirty two, and Strength and Health was pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty big in its time. It was kind of like

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Speaker 1: the I think of it as the self or fitness

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Speaker 1: magazine of the day, and Hoffman in the magazine become

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Speaker 1: influential advocates for strength training. Women included, well some specific

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Speaker 1: women should be honest, uh. He featured his wife a

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Speaker 1: lot in the magazine. There was one picture of her

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Speaker 1: holding the spar bell over her head single handedly. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it was fake. And I don't mean, of course as

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Speaker 1: like women can't lift weights. I just mean like it

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Speaker 1: looked incredibly heavy, but it doesn't anyway. In addition to

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Speaker 1: his wife, though, he also featured this guy, let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, he also featured a lot of mistresses. And

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Speaker 1: I don't know which came first, the mistress bit or

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Speaker 1: them being weightlifters featured in the magazine. But anyway, he

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Speaker 1: was very fond of strong women and argued that weightlifting

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Speaker 1: would make women happier and make you a better mother,

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Speaker 1: harkening back to Sanduena the maternal angle. Yeah, don't worry, society,

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Speaker 1: weightlifting will make them better. You can be strong and feminine. This,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this has been a challenging combination for us

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Speaker 1: to collectively accept for a long time. But speaking Caroline,

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Speaker 1: of that photo of Bob Hoffman's wife Rosetta lifting a

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Speaker 1: possibly fake dumbbell or barbell excuse me, over her head,

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Speaker 1: the caption read here is the true glorified version of

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Speaker 1: beautiful womanhood, and Rosetta was also conventionally attractive. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, she was a beautiful woman. But you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to present, you know, this novel idea that look,

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Speaker 1: you can keep your feminine form, you can still have

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Speaker 1: those soft curves while lifting a problem barbelle above your head. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But while these women athletes were offering evidence visual evidence

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Speaker 1: in magazines like Strength and Health that weightlifting doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you super bulky, they still uplifted a very specific version

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Speaker 1: of what female beauty is. Yeah. So one example of

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Speaker 1: this that Todd highlights is a nineteen forty Strength and

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Speaker 1: Health photo of abby pudgy Evil Stockton, and the caption

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Speaker 1: said quote, this small lady has strength equal to a

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Speaker 1: much heavier man, yet remains a small, symmetrical, and most

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Speaker 1: attractive physique. Further proof that heavy exercise weightlifting, hand balancing,

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Speaker 1: and acrobatics will produce the ideal develop meant for the

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Speaker 1: ladies too well. And it's not just the West. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have people like Holto in Singapore who she was

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Speaker 1: an unhealthy child whose father just adored her and her

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Speaker 1: sister and encouraged them to lift weights as part of health,

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Speaker 1: as part of getting healthier, and she and her sister

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Speaker 1: were like sweeping beauty contests in Singapore. She her sister,

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Speaker 1: her sister didn't win first place until she herself stepped

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Speaker 1: down to make way. Um. But yeah, her father definitely

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Speaker 1: encouraged her weightlifting abilities, and she was considered conventionally attractive

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Speaker 1: at the same time. And I think it's notable that

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Speaker 1: in the recent BBC profile on her, the headline is

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Speaker 1: along the lines of oh, it's a weightlifting beauty queen, Like,

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Speaker 1: we're still surprised by that. It's supposed to contrasts of

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Speaker 1: it too could be possible within the same person. But

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Speaker 1: so by the time we get to the nineteen sixties,

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Speaker 1: female athletes are increasingly including weight training in their regimens,

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Speaker 1: but women pumping irons still doesn't have mass appeal. And

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting that that really really started

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Speaker 1: in response to Soviet women in the Cold War. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the sixties is still the Cold War, but uh, in

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Speaker 1: the Cold War, pumping iron to get stronger in order

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Speaker 1: to be better athletes, not necessarily just a pump iron

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Speaker 1: for the sake of lifting weights, but also to become

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Speaker 1: better swimmers, runners, etcetera. Yeah, I mean, even though we've

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Speaker 1: been seeing this advocated for in these more specialty magazines

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Speaker 1: like Physical Culture and Strength and Health for so long,

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Speaker 1: that mainstream concept took so long to catch on. But

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Speaker 1: even within the International Federation of Bodybuilders it's not until

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine that they first allow female body building competitors,

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Speaker 1: and for similar reasons that they were like, no, this

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Speaker 1: would not be okay to have women impeding in this.

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Speaker 1: It would simply be to grotesque. And we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: back to women bodybuilders in just a minute. Um. But

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Speaker 1: then finally, in the year two thousand, Yeah, two thousand,

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Speaker 1: thank you, women's weightlifting was introduced at the Olympics two thousand.

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Speaker 1: It took a century to get there, Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 1: It does boggle one's mind that you have people like

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Speaker 1: a net Kellerman in nineteen eighteen writing an exercise book

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Speaker 1: telling women to lift barbels you've got people like Bob

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Speaker 1: Hoffman being like, no, bold and strong and big and

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Speaker 1: muscly is beautiful. Strong women are beautiful, and then it's

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Speaker 1: not until two thousand that you have them being like

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Speaker 1: I guess it's official, but it might be official, but

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Speaker 1: it's still deviant. So across the board, we all of

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Speaker 1: us don't lift weights enough, and we're not going to

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Speaker 1: go through all the benefits and the premium benefits and

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Speaker 1: then the platinum benefits of weightlifting again. Um but according

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Speaker 1: to CDC data, only of American adults meet the weekly

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Speaker 1: recommended minimum of weightlifting two times per week. In Caroline,

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Speaker 1: I am yeah, no, me too, me too, And I

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Speaker 1: mean years ago I was told I was having some

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Speaker 1: shoulder problems, nothing serious, but yeah, years ago I was

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Speaker 1: told by a health professional that I would do myself

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Speaker 1: way more good than harm just by doing some simple

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Speaker 1: arm raises and shoulder rotating exercises, holding lighter weight dumbbells well.

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Speaker 1: And this is something that I am seeing my mom now,

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Speaker 1: who recently turned a number. I don't think she would

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Speaker 1: like me to stay in public, but she turned seventy

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Speaker 1: and she's now trying to make up for lost time.

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Speaker 1: Having not done any kind of strength training, and she's

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Speaker 1: terrified to do it. Oh, I know it was, so

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Speaker 1: I totally sympathized with that. It can be so intimidating

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Speaker 1: to start a new exercise regimen, whether you're doing it

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Speaker 1: at the gym in front of people, or whether you're

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Speaker 1: trying to launch into it at home. Just finding that motivation. Well,

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Speaker 1: and for women closer to our age, According to data

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Speaker 1: from the International Health, Racket and Sports Club Association, only

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Speaker 1: half of women with gym memberships use weight machines and

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Speaker 1: just a third lift free weights, although that could be

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Speaker 1: because there are lots of people the gym who just

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Speaker 1: won't get off the machine. That's true. I mean, get

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Speaker 1: off the machine and let me use it. But wipe

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Speaker 1: it down first, Please wipe it down. And this has

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Speaker 1: been Caroline's corner well. But according to Victoria northbrook Over

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Speaker 1: at the Telegraph in the UK, only point nine percent

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Speaker 1: of women over their weight train, So in other words,

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Speaker 1: we aren't lifting weights. And but why aren't we? Like

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Speaker 1: we know the benefits, we know it in our head.

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Speaker 1: Why this resistance to resistance training? Well, I can speak

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Speaker 1: personally to this, one of not getting the instant gratification

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Speaker 1: you get with cardio, oh for sure, or even with yoga.

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Speaker 1: With yoga you walk out of there, you're like, I

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Speaker 1: am one with the universe. I am so at peace

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Speaker 1: and centered until someone cuts you off in traffic and

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Speaker 1: it's namas, don't And this has been Caroline's corner. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you totally get that instant boost with cardio. That's like, ah, yes,

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Speaker 1: I feel cleaned out and healthy and strong and lifting

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Speaker 1: those dumbbells to strengthen your shoulders. You know logically that

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Speaker 1: doing it will help strengthen all of your muscles and

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Speaker 1: your core and this will benefit you in the long run,

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Speaker 1: but it's so hard to get yourself to do it.

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Speaker 1: And by the U I mean me well. And part

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Speaker 1: of that too is the environment of the free weights

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Speaker 1: area in many gyms and this takes me back Caroline

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Speaker 1: to our college, Jim. We have like the massive um

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Speaker 1: Athletic complex where people could go and work out and

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Speaker 1: there because the wall of mirrors where all the free

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Speaker 1: weights were, I never went near it. It was bro city.

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Speaker 1: I would attempt to go over and do some you know,

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Speaker 1: hand weight curls every now and then, but it was

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Speaker 1: intimidating walking up to all of these guys who I assumed,

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Speaker 1: of course I knew what they were doing far more

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Speaker 1: than I did, and kind of trying to elbow your

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Speaker 1: way in there and getting you would get looks from

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Speaker 1: them as well, and not necessarily flirtatious ones. Um. Not

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Speaker 1: that that's fun either, um, but it was. It's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily a comfortable place for a lot of women. This

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Speaker 1: just makes me think of that Brian Reagan bed about

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Speaker 1: going to the gym and the man is struggling in

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Speaker 1: the exercise equipment and the guy comes over and it's like, sir,

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Speaker 1: can you please get out of the paint scaffolding. And

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Speaker 1: this has been Caroline's corner um. But more so even

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Speaker 1: than feeling uncomfortable with maybe some some browy weightlifters at

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Speaker 1: the gym, or the fact that run feels like more

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Speaker 1: instant gratification, is that fear that we talked about earlier

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Speaker 1: of of bulking up too much of of women who

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Speaker 1: you know, they don't want to pursue weightlifting or bodybuilding

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Speaker 1: as a career or a sport, but just to get healthy,

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Speaker 1: and they're afraid that even lifting those five pound or

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Speaker 1: tin pound weights is going to make them look like

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Speaker 1: some you know, she hulk. Yeah, I would say that

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Speaker 1: the bulking bear is definitely the biggest d motivator. And

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Speaker 1: you even see this reflected in bodybuilding competitions, this whole

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Speaker 1: panic over a masculine body. And yeah, we're talking bodybuilding

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Speaker 1: when you do have visible muscles, that's why they're there.

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Speaker 1: But you have female competitors who will not in in

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Speaker 1: in every case, but often be judged on hair and makeup.

425
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: Guys don't have to do hair and makeup, but the

426
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: ladies have to do full hair and makeup, possibly even

427
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: wear bikinis and heels depending on the type of fitness

428
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 1: competition it is. Um and competitors still have to quote

429
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: unquote look like women. This is something you see repeated

430
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: often in the bodybuilding rhetoric or the competitive bodybuilding rhetoric.

431
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: I should say, yeah, because you've got different categories and bodybuilding,

432
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 1: you've got a space for a lot of different body

433
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: types and types of women. But but a lot of

434
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: those categories, like the figure competition or the bikini competition,

435
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,239
Speaker 1: do specifically focus on do you also look like a

436
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: sexy lady person? And this was something talked about by

437
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: Sina a Hunter who wrote entire dissertation on bodybuilding and gender.

438
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: She wrote, quote, women's bodybuilding defines and is defined by

439
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: socially normative ideals of femininity, particularly the ideal of the

440
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: slender body. While female bodybuilders seek a more powerful physique,

441
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: their association with women's body building also brings a loss

442
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: of social power because think about all of the hackney

443
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: jokes you've heard about well, female bodybuilders. Oh she's like

444
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: a she hulk, et cetera. Yeah, and even men who

445
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: are attracted to these women or want to date them

446
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: or whatever other thing. Dating is a euphemism for even

447
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: they are sort of criticized by association, being called muscle worshippers,

448
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: with the assumption that they are somehow less manly or

449
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: less masculine because they are attracted to these women who

450
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: have big muscles, or that they're secretly gay because of it.

451
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: To throw a little homophobia in there, just for good measure.

452
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I can't do an episode with that. But

453
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 1: let's bust some myths already, Caroline, because here is the

454
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: thing that we all need to remember. Like, unless you

455
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: are an aspiring bodybuilder on a diet, an intensive diet

456
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: and fitness regimen, you are not going to bulk up. Yeah,

457
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: or if you're taking an abolic steroids, well yeah, there's

458
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: that whole thing. If you are actively altering your hormonal makeup, Um,

459
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: you're not going to bulk up as a woman who's

460
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: just lifting weights for health. Yeah because estrogen. Because estrogen.

461
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: That's actually our tagline, because estrogen. Um. Yet, you don't

462
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: have to be some anatomically giant, huge person to be

463
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: able to lift a bunch of weight. I mean, look

464
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 1: at British Olympic record holding weightlifter Zoe Smith. She's just

465
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: under five three and relatively small framed, but she's a

466
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: freaking champ. And Smith is not bulky because we don't

467
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: produce enough testosterone to create that kind of hulking muscle

468
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: mass that guys do. So it's really I mean, it's

469
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: just a physiological fact that that bulking isn't gonna happen. Now,

470
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: different people build muscle in different ways and in different

471
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: kinds of places, and there are ways to create that

472
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: those long, lean hustles, but it still can involve and

473
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: should involve weight training. But I mean, you've got people

474
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: like Zoe Smith, who I think is inspiring along with

475
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: many other women, and weightlifting is inspiring other women to

476
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: be like, hey, you can actually come to the sport

477
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: and you can participate. And if you know you can

478
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: lift for health, you can lift for sport. But even

479
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: Zoe Smith has been told to go back to the kitchen,

480
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, Like, even even she has haters who think

481
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: that she's deviant. Well, one big force though, that has

482
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: been helping mainstream women lifting weights not even necessarily for

483
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 1: for competing is CrossFit. I know we have some CrossFit

484
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 1: doers and haters out there. Yeah, say what you will

485
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: about the cult of CrossFit, but it has empowered a

486
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: lot of women to start lifting those weights. Grab those

487
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: kettle balls, ladies. I love cattle bells, really I do.

488
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: I thought, are they kettle bells or kettle balls? Kettle bells? Okay,

489
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: so don't grab your kettle balls, grab your kettle bills.

490
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: Back to Caroline's corner. So, for a while, Jillian my

491
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: goles Is exercise videos for free on Amazon Prime, Jillian

492
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: Michael's Biggest Loser fame. Yeah, and she is so mean

493
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: but awesome but mean um and so I did her

494
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: kettlebell workout video for a while until it was no

495
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: longer free, and at one point she yells at you. Uh,

496
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: I want to hear you gurgling your heart in your

497
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: throat and um, it was actually motivating and scary, and

498
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: I think I tweeted about it because that's how I

499
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: like release fear and frustration. Did that get you to

500
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: lift your kettlebells for heck? Yeah? So to speak? Alright,

501
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: So now I know how to motivate Caroline. Yeah, just

502
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: be like real mean on Monday morning. Gropple your throat, Caroline,

503
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: you can do it. I want you to research the

504
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: podcast until your heart is gargling in your throat. It

505
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: feels like that sometimes and then I just cry and

506
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: and curl up under my standing desk. Well, perhaps Caroline,

507
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: some more positive inspiration that doesn't involve heart gurgling. We

508
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: hope I might come from women like brit Ish olympians

509
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: Zoe Smith, whom we've mentioned also Hannah Powell and Helen Jewel.

510
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: Smith side note took home the Commonwealth Games gold and

511
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: she's only in her early twenties, hence her earlier nickname

512
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: of being Britain's strongest school girl because she started at twelve.

513
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: She started at twelve, And you've got Hannah Powell, who's

514
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: tiny she was inspired by her powerlifting dad and uncle,

515
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: and she had that inroad, she was inspired by people

516
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: in her family. I do like that pattern echoed also

517
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 1: with a holy toe of the daughters being influenced by

518
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: their weightlifting dad's Yeah, it's kind a sweet daddy daughter weightlifting.

519
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: I do like that. And you know, not that you

520
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: have to be a weightlifter or a bodybuilder or win

521
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: medals and stuff like that, but it is nice that

522
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: a father or an uncle or whoever would encourage a

523
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: girl in his life to get healthy that way and

524
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: develop self confidence that way instead of being the stereotypical

525
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: like girls can't do that, that's gross. Don't hulk up exactly.

526
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: And we should mention that the feminine beauty ideal has

527
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: generally moved away from the more stick thin wayfish look.

528
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: I feel like it is cooler too. Visibly, it looks strong. Well, yeah,

529
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: because you've got a lot of that, like fits pow

530
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: stuff online. You've got a lot of magazines and um

531
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: athletisure catalogs that are featuring um athletic looking women if

532
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: not actual athletes uh to model their clothes. But there

533
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: is still that persistent focus on conventional beauty that it

534
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,479
Speaker 1: seems like we still need in order to make it okay. So,

535
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: for instance, in Victoria north Brooks Telegraph article about the

536
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: rising popularity of women weightlifters, she describes British weightlifter Sarah

537
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: Davies as someone who's quote helped create a new standard

538
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: of female sport beauty, and of course northbrook made sure

539
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: to point out that Davies is also a beauty queen. Yeah,

540
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: and and the thing is, it's in fact okay if

541
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: she is creating this new standard of female supporting beauty.

542
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: But I want to know, it disappointed me in that

543
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: article because it seemed to be taking us back a

544
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: couple of steps. Yeah, it's the whole thing of let's

545
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: not celebrate one look or body over another look or body.

546
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: Let's let's just celebrate bodies like you have one good job,

547
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: you're human. Yeah. I just don't see why why pretty

548
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: still needs to be the selling point. And the same

549
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: thing is reflected in headlines like a post over at

550
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: US News, which has a lot of articles really promoting

551
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: the importance and health of women weightlifting, but then it

552
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: comes around with a blog post headline how to lift

553
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: like a man without looking like a man. Well, just

554
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: trading on on fears. Hey, you have some deep down

555
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 1: fear about looking like a man, Well we're gonna sell

556
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: you this article then. Yeah, instead of just being like, no,

557
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 1: here's the way to be healthy and drop your gendered

558
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: baggage while you're at it um and you also have

559
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: to call out the fitsbow tagline strong is the new sexy. Oh,

560
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: so I should lift weight. It's not because it will

561
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 1: help me live longer and lower my resting heart rate,

562
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: but because it will make me sexy. Okay, I know

563
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: that's so. That's so I ROLLI that anything that any

564
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: we have to motivate anyone to do anything because it's

565
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: supposedly sexy, that we can't do anything because either we

566
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: like it or it's healthy or it's fun or whatever.

567
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: And one thing I was wondering about as well, that

568
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: we we don't see in any of these conversations is

569
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: how ethnicity plays into this as well, because all of

570
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: this is this this balancing act we've been doing between

571
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,959
Speaker 1: acceptable femininity and physique and strength as a masculine construct,

572
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: and it's I think probably a harder tight rope for

573
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: women of color to walk because think about the example

574
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: with Michelle Obama's amazingly toned arms. Depending on whom you ask,

575
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: it's a sign of her being a total badass, strong

576
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: woman super healthy, or it's a sign of her being

577
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: you know, nannish. Yeah, well, I mean it is. It

578
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: is sort of a complicated conversation to have because you

579
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: already have black women being held to sort of different

580
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: standards of beauty. And the traditional notion of beauty is

581
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: that it is white and pure and virginal and all

582
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: of these things, and that black women's beauty is transgressive

583
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: in and of itself. And so if you have weightlifting,

584
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: which is supposedly deviant from femininity, and then you take

585
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: a black woman and have her lift weights, then oh

586
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 1: my god, that's so like upsetting our traditional norms of

587
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: of what a woman is supposed to be. But then,

588
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: of course there's that other argument around beauty that well,

589
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: because black women fall out of this traditional media driven

590
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: verse of what beauty is supposed to be, that it

591
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: might be more okay for them to weightlift as opposed

592
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: to a white woman who's supposed to stay, you know,

593
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: super skinny and somehow busty and all all of this

594
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 1: at the same time. But it certainly would not be

595
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: celebrated in the way that it is so often for

596
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: white women. It's complicated issue. It is complicated. I mean,

597
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: like women having visible muscle to begin with, and demonstrating

598
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: physical strength in general, whether that involves, you know, a

599
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: well rounded bicep or not. I think that the public

600
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: perception of that and how we process it does change

601
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: depending on skin color. Thanks a lot racism. And this

602
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: is an area where I would like to see more

603
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: research on it as well, because it seems like just

604
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: women in general and weightlifting and resistance training is still

605
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: considered so niche that it's almost just kind of the

606
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: surface examination of it, and I think that there are

607
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: so many more layers to it. Well, yeah, that's why

608
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: it's great to see things like hashtag lift like a

609
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: girl with women who weight train or bodybuild actively trying

610
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: to show like, this is what we look like, this

611
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: is what people look like who lift weights. You know,

612
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: we're just normal people too, and you can join the

613
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 1: sport and not feel afraid, you know. And you also

614
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: have British Weight Liftings Golden Chance program which foster's interest

615
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: in the sport and helps develop future champions. And so

616
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: there's all these efforts around, you know, normalizing it, that

617
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: it's not a deviant freak show for a woman to

618
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: want to lift weights, and that goes for someone who

619
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: wants to compete, or just someone like you know you

620
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: or me who wants to just try to be healthier. Yeah,

621
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if anything, can we just stop with the

622
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: jokes that if a woman walks into the free weight

623
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,879
Speaker 1: section starts pumping some iron and like, oh, she's gonna

624
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: want to beat beat me up? Yeah, I know that's

625
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: cheap jokes. Old Bob, I don't I have a very

626
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: limited worldview barbell Bob, I hate help Bob. Well, Now, listeners,

627
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you on this. Are there

628
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: any strength train owners out there? Are there people who

629
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: have experienced this, this gender trouble that we run into

630
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: in the weight room. Let us know your thoughts. Mom

631
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: Stuff at house stuff works dot com is our email address.

632
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or

633
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. And we've got a couple of

634
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. So we've got

635
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: a couple of emails here from our Bi Philip episode

636
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: on men handling rejection not so gracefully. Christina wrote in

637
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: and said, I am a thirty year old bisexual woman

638
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: who has had her fair share of dating men and women.

639
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: I've experienced men who can't take no for an answer.

640
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: I've made up fake boyfriends, tall tales of getting out

641
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: of tricky situations with guys, and for the most part,

642
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: it's worked. But I've never had an experience more difficult

643
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: than one of the women I dated. I'm naturally quite

644
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: fem and my girlfriend at the time was butch. She

645
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: identified quite strongly as more of a man than a woman.

646
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: I dated her for only two months, and during that

647
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: time she swerved between two emotional states, overly sweet, caring

648
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: and kind to blaming me at length if I didn't

649
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: behave feminine enough for her. I broke things off fairly quickly,

650
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: and I spent the entire next year trying to get

651
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: her to stop contacting me. After we first broke up,

652
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: she would call me crying, saying that she was nothing

653
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: without me, and I would gently extricate myself from the

654
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: lengthy conversations by saying, I didn't think you were a

655
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: good fit, but I wished her well. Initially, I made

656
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: of excuses platitudes to calm her and her ego, but

657
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: she didn't get the message. She inundated me with calls,

658
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: so I blocked her. She sent me gifts to my

659
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: work and home, for which I thanked her but still

660
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 1: told her that we were done, and she tried showing

661
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 1: up to my apartment four times, even though she lived

662
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: a nine hours drive away. I had to tell my

663
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: boss why I wasn't answering the phone, which was embarrassing

664
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: and extremely unprofessional. And throughout all these events, I would

665
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: calmly and kindly tell her I wasn't interested in to

666
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: please leave me alone, to which she would yell at me,

667
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: saying I was defective and broken, I would never love anyone,

668
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: and that she knew the moment she met me that

669
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: I was the worst thing that could happen to her.

670
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: Then when I called her out on it, she would

671
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: insist that she would never say those things again if

672
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 1: only I would come back to her. At the time,

673
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 1: I was going through a very difficult emotional patch, having

674
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: lost a loved one, and to my horror, my ex

675
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: exploited this. I've had my fair share of being broken

676
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: up with and being the break upper, but this one

677
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 1: was unbelievable. It's now been a year and a half.

678
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: In just this week, when I was listening to your podcast,

679
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 1: I received another piece of mail from her. She will

680
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,919
Speaker 1: go down in my history as a person who would

681
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 1: not take no for an answer. Wow, Christina, I am

682
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: sorry to hear that you have had to go through that.

683
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: And to Christina's ex of your listening, stop it stop. Yeah,

684
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: just let it go. Let it go. You gotta let

685
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: it go and work on yourself. Well, I have a

686
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: letter here from Isaac and he is someone who worked

687
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: on himself. Uh, he says. I was listening to your

688
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: podcast today on the bi Philip episode and have to

689
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: say I was entertained, saddened, and touched all at the

690
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: same time. For one thing, I get the impulse to

691
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: lash out after rejection because it isn't just one rejection.

692
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: I'm thirty two and only went on my first date

693
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,400
Speaker 1: earlier this year and it went swimmingly, thank you. But

694
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: up to that point it was a string of constant rejections.

695
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: I was doing everything you see on TV because as

696
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: a nerd, where else what I get relationship advice to

697
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 1: try and start something, but it never worked. I mean

698
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: I was literally going to the local club every Friday

699
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: and Saturday asking women for numbers for months and getting nowhere.

700
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 1: I hated everyone around me because I didn't understand why

701
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: I was so unlovable. I gave up after a while

702
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: Forever Loan, and last year found an advice column tailored

703
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: for people like me. Ask Dr nerd Love. He has

704
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: a bunch of great advice that set me straight. And

705
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: it turns out all that time that I was the problem.

706
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 1: I wasn't in a place where my natural charms could shine,

707
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: and I wasn't happy. I must have looked a bit

708
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: like a shark circling the dance floor for the weekend sick.

709
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 1: That's what sharks do, right. The solution for me was

710
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: to go somewhere where I fit in and was comfortable,

711
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 1: where I could showcase my strength and be a person

712
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: that someone else would want to be around. So that's

713
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: what I did, and the transformation is amazing. In the

714
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: interest of length, I'll limit myself to that one comment,

715
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: but I really feel like solution here is for men

716
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: to realize that rejection is inevitable, and that being rejected

717
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: doesn't reflect on their value as a person. What does

718
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: reflect on their characters behaving monstrously in the face of rejection.

719
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: Thanks for all you do, Isaac p s Isaac, I giggled,

720
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 1: He says, every time I heard you say taco ruse,

721
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 1: this is what I imagined. And he attached a picture

722
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: of cartoon tacos and and kangaroos together, so like taco

723
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: rus get it jumping through the Isaac, I love it.

724
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: I love it too, And Isaac, I'm so happy for

725
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 1: you and that that first date went so well. Um

726
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: And as always, you've got letters to share with us.

727
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is where

728
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: you can send them and for links to all of

729
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,

730
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources

731
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: so you can learn more about the history of women

732
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: and weightlifting. Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told

733
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of

734
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com