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Speaker 1: From Minneapolis to New York, to DC to Atlanta to California.

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Speaker 1: Riots across our country. Why because George Floyd was killed

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Speaker 1: by a cop? Over what crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: George Floyd was killed? Buy a cop. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this. More tense clashes around the country,

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Speaker 1: including this standoff of the Berkeley Center in Brooklyn, where

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Speaker 1: a police car burned as officers pepper sprayed the crowd,

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Speaker 1: and in Detroit, demonstrations turned deadly when someone fired shots

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Speaker 1: into a crowd, killing a nineteen year old man. Officials

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Speaker 1: say police were not involved. From Louisville, still reeling over

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Speaker 1: the death of twenty six year old Brianna Taylor, killed

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Speaker 1: by police officers as they served a narcotics warrant. It's

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Speaker 1: like directly at US where NBC affiliate Wave three reporter

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Speaker 1: and crew came under fire from police. To San Jose,

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Speaker 1: California protesters they are flooding a freeway, smashing windows with

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Speaker 1: drivers still inside before clashing with police. And Cincinnati, where

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Speaker 1: protesters stormed the area's Justice Center. Calls for justice echoing

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Speaker 1: through city after city while amid the escalating tensions, many

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Speaker 1: are hoping the message does not get lost. But it

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Speaker 1: keeps happening, no matter what's done, no matter how many protests,

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Speaker 1: it keeps happening. It's always been happening, but now it's

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Speaker 1: just recording. That's why it's getting seymore. Our friends at

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Speaker 1: NBC Today, that was Blaine Alexander detailing the riots that

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Speaker 1: are taking over and tearing our country apart. Why over

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Speaker 1: the death of George Floyd? What really happened? And how

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Speaker 1: is looting a Gucci store gonna fix it? You know

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Speaker 1: you've got two theories. You've got the MLK theory peaceful

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Speaker 1: nonviolent protests. You got the Malcolm X theory. They're not listening,

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Speaker 1: so violence is necessary. What is the answer? How many

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Speaker 1: lives will it take? Let's just start at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: joining me an all star panel, New York lawyer Jason

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Speaker 1: Oceans Karen Start, New York psychologist at Karen Start dot com.

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Speaker 1: James shell Nutt twenty seven years Atlanta Metro Major Case

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Speaker 1: Division swat now lawyer at snut Firm dot com. Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, death investigator, author of Blood Beneath My

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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan and Sierra Gillespie investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Crime online dot Com. Everybody take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: For thirty one years, Cut Foods has been a part

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Speaker 1: of this South Minneapolis community. We don't just work in

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Speaker 1: that community. That is our community. We know the community.

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Speaker 1: It's a vibe that is unmatched to another community. It's

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Speaker 1: the best thing that's happened to our family. The family

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Speaker 1: owned business has come under fire after a phone call

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Speaker 1: to police about the passing of a counterfeit twenty dollar bill.

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Speaker 1: The staff that called the police followed protocol when he

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Speaker 1: identified the bill is fake. The patron was out of

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Speaker 1: the establishment when the police arrived. He was outside of

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Speaker 1: the establishment, which normally never takes place while he was

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Speaker 1: still there. We're not sure. Most of the time, when

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Speaker 1: patrons give us a counterfeit bill, they don't even know

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Speaker 1: it's fake. So when the police are called, there's no

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Speaker 1: crime being committed. They just want to know where they

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Speaker 1: got it from, and that's usually what takes place. It's

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Speaker 1: hard for me to imagine all this started over twenty

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Speaker 1: dollar counterfeit bill. Having prosecuted violent felonies for my whole

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Speaker 1: legal career almost. I would never even assume there'd be

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Speaker 1: an arrest over one twenty dollar bill. But why is

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Speaker 1: cup Foods falling under attack? They got a counterfeit, they

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Speaker 1: call a cost. Thats what they're supposed to do, and

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Speaker 1: to U Sierra Gillespie, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: I imagine the reason George Floyd was still outside was

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Speaker 1: either a he didn't know he had used a counterfeit,

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Speaker 1: and he I believe bought a pack of cigarettes and

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Speaker 1: was having a smoke. I imagine that's what happened. But

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Speaker 1: fill me in, Sierra Gillespie, how did the whole thing start? All? Right?

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Speaker 1: So it was pretty basic. As you said, he was outside,

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Speaker 1: nothing really was going on at the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was just kind of hanging out in a vehicle

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Speaker 1: with a couple other people when the officers arrived. And

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Speaker 1: from what we've heard over and over again in the

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Speaker 1: weeks since this happened, he wasn't violence in any way,

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Speaker 1: and he wasn't resisting arrest in anyway. We've seen this

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Speaker 1: on surveillance video and some of the video that bystanders

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Speaker 1: there were shooting. He didn't resist arrest, he didn't put

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Speaker 1: up a fight, and he was going along with everything

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Speaker 1: that the officers were asking. Overall, agree with you two

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Speaker 1: hundred percent, sire. However, there was a struggle inside the

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Speaker 1: police car. I believe they were transferring him from one

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Speaker 1: cop car to another. You can see a struggle in there,

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Speaker 1: and according to reports, he was saying, I'm claustrophobic. He's

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Speaker 1: having a hard time. I don't know that that amounts

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Speaker 1: to a struggle, but there was some something going on

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Speaker 1: in the car. Here's the other thing to Jason Oceans.

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Speaker 1: Even if there was a brief struggle inside the back

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Speaker 1: of the police car before he was taken out, that

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Speaker 1: would still not justify what happened. Time had passed. The

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Speaker 1: guy was laying on the ground, face down, so any

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Speaker 1: pre vs. Resistance due to claustrophobia or whatever reason wouldn't matter.

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Speaker 1: You're correct, Nancy. I mean what you're taught at the

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Speaker 1: academy or any retraining is that once you have the

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Speaker 1: suspect under control, that's it. You've got them under control.

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Speaker 1: So as he's down on the ground with you know,

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Speaker 1: handcuffed at that point, if he was still being belligerent,

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Speaker 1: you would simply carry him and place him in in

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Speaker 1: the vehicle. But you know another thing at that point

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Speaker 1: that he was violent. I can't really trust what I'm

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Speaker 1: seeing in the headlines and on TV. I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what I found. It was on Washington Post website, Jason

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Speaker 1: and they had gathered surveillance video from cup Foods where

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Speaker 1: the counterfeit bill started, from sidewalk video there at thirty

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Speaker 1: a street, from people's cell phones, from all different surveillance videos.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, and they threw in police and EMT calls.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's mostly ambulance calls. And you can put

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Speaker 1: together a timeline and really see for yourself everything that

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Speaker 1: we know so far happened. I found that at Washington Post. Guys,

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Speaker 1: from there, this is where it starts going sideways. You

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Speaker 1: were listening to CBSWCCO for Minneapolis Reg Chapman. Now listen

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Speaker 1: to Minneapolis Fox nine KMSP listen. The initial nine one

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Speaker 1: one call about a forgery in progress came in at

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Speaker 1: eight o two Monday evening. Two officers walk across the

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Speaker 1: street and approach opposite sides of the vehicle, which already

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Speaker 1: had at least one door open. The officer on the

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Speaker 1: passenger side, shining a flashlight in the suv as a

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Speaker 1: man gets out. At that same time, George Floyd and

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Speaker 1: one of the other officers on the driver's side begins

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Speaker 1: to visibly struggle and the other officer comes to assist. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: the man in the front passenger seat and a woman

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Speaker 1: in the backseat exit the vehicle. At this point, Floyd

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Speaker 1: is clearly cuffed and walked away from the suv and

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Speaker 1: seated on the sidewalk just as a park Police vehicle

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Speaker 1: pulls up to assist. Through body camera footage from the

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Speaker 1: park Police, we see officers taking notes, talking with witnesses,

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Speaker 1: and things appear to be calm and routine. It did.

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Speaker 1: It did to James Shelnutt, twenty seven years Metro major

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Speaker 1: case including Swat now lawyer. It all seemed okay. I

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Speaker 1: watched myself where the cops go to the suv where

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Speaker 1: Floyd is sitting, they get him out. At first I

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Speaker 1: thought there was a struggle right there, but it looks

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Speaker 1: as if they reached it and pulled him out and

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Speaker 1: immediately handcuffed and moves very quick and James and they

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Speaker 1: walk him over to the sidewalk and sit him down,

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Speaker 1: no problem, still cuffed. Would you agree with that procedure

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Speaker 1: that far, Yes, so far at that one time textbook,

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Speaker 1: I do aggre it wouldn't. I mean, I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: why it had to be cuffed on a counterfeit twenty.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what was said inside Floyd's SUV that

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Speaker 1: he was sitting in, but he got arrested and so far,

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Speaker 1: so good. He's cuffed, he's sitting on the sidewalk, no problem.

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Speaker 1: Where does everything go? Sideways? Time stories with Nancy Grace?

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Speaker 1: Why are there riots? Because this guy was killed by

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Speaker 1: a cop. That's why the guy was down. He was

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Speaker 1: no longer resisting arrest. Why did this happen? I am

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Speaker 1: not taking his laying down. I am not taking it

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Speaker 1: without a fight. Listen to KMSP. Floyd is then escorted

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Speaker 1: across the street to the waiting patrol car. From there

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Speaker 1: we can see the struggle continue. It's unclear how much

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Speaker 1: time passes, but next we see the witness video, which

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Speaker 1: has now been seen around the world. Over the course

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Speaker 1: of the next three and a half minutes, Floyd is

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Speaker 1: heard saying please, I can't breathe, or a combination of

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Speaker 1: both at least fourteen times, as people on the sidewalk

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Speaker 1: beg the officer to get off him or the other

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Speaker 1: officers to intervene. I will right. Less than three and

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Speaker 1: a half minutes into the video, Floyd goes quiet. According

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Speaker 1: to the Minneapolis fire incident Report, EMTs recalled to the

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Speaker 1: scene at eight thirty, arriving two minutes later. Medics performed

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Speaker 1: pulse checks several times, finding Floyd's time of death at

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Speaker 1: HCMC officially declared at nine five pm. In about an hour.

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Speaker 1: It was all over one hour. It's gone over. What

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Speaker 1: a twenty dollar bill? You know. I want to go

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Speaker 1: back to you, Jason Oceans, New York defense attorney. The

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Speaker 1: law is, you cannot shoot a fleeting felon unless they're

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Speaker 1: in the commission or you think they're in the commission

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Speaker 1: of an ongoing violent, violent crime. You can't just start shooting.

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Speaker 1: So why when this guy is laying face down on

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Speaker 1: the street, why was he suffocated dead? I just I

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Speaker 1: don't understand it. And you know what breaks my heart

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Speaker 1: so much, Jason, is people are coming up. You gotta

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Speaker 1: look at that video I told you about At Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: People are coming up, going, hey, let him up. People

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Speaker 1: are taking pictures and videoing and asking the cops to

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Speaker 1: get often one cop I think takes his pulse right

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Speaker 1: there and can't find a pulse, but nobody does anything. Jason. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the shocking part in that aspect of the video

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Speaker 1: is clearly you see him within procedure now secured, face down,

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Speaker 1: hands behind the back off. I mean, he in that

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Speaker 1: position was not struggling in any way. And that's you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the disconnect right there. Why if he is

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Speaker 1: complying at that time, regardless of anything else that happened

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Speaker 1: up to it, and we all agree he seemed to

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Speaker 1: be compliant. Jackie in the studio keeps waving notes at

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Speaker 1: me that the COD is not suffocation. Actually, Joe got Morgan.

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Speaker 1: The family has called in an independent autopsy for an

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Speaker 1: independent pathologist, and Joe got Morgan. Let me jump ahead

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Speaker 1: from where we are right now. But the officials CD

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Speaker 1: is a mixture. They're saying heart problems. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: explain to me what the official COD cause of death is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what they're saying, Nancy, is that initially and this is

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Speaker 1: just a preliminary finding because we don't have talked yet.

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Speaker 1: What they're saying is that he did, in fact have

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Speaker 1: hypotensive cardiovascular disease, which high blood pressure. Just so folks, yeah,

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Speaker 1: high blood pressure. But there's also like you can see

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Speaker 1: that in the heart. What happens is is the heart

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Speaker 1: muscle itself actually thickens. Okay, Now that's also associated with

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Speaker 1: the heart disease, which you know people think about all this,

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Speaker 1: which I think, please please, Yeah, I can see the

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Speaker 1: man on the ground with a knee on his threat

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Speaker 1: And are you actually telling me he died of a

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Speaker 1: pre existing heart issue. I'd love pressure. No, I'm Hennepin

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Speaker 1: County medical examiners saying that. And do you believe that?

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Speaker 1: Am I supposed to believe him? Are my lion eyes?

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Speaker 1: Just tell me, Joe Scott. Please, it's like you shoot

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Speaker 1: him and go, oh yeah, he died of a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You have to ask yourself the question would he have

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Speaker 1: died under any other circumstances, like if he had just

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Speaker 1: been walking down the street and I probably without the

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Speaker 1: police intervening. If he's got this kind of severe cardiac problem, okay,

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Speaker 1: or a clusion in his vessels. You pile on literally

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Speaker 1: not figuratively, but literally with this gentleman. His system is

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Speaker 1: already compromised to this point. So it's just enough to

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Speaker 1: push him over the edge. And you have to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, Nancy, he's saying that he can't breathe. You

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Speaker 1: already stated that he was a smoker in addition, so

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Speaker 1: he's compromised from a respiratory standpoint, his oxygen uptake is compromised.

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Speaker 1: So when you get him pinned to the ground like this,

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Speaker 1: and we know that this is wrong that you place

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Speaker 1: your knee on somebody's neck, because you can cause neurological problems.

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Speaker 1: You can break his bones in his neck. It just

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Speaker 1: goes not to mention. You can suffocate it. But right

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Speaker 1: now they're not saying that yet. What they're saying is

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Speaker 1: is that they're waiting for the tops to come in. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So they're saying preexisting blood heart problem and they said

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Speaker 1: about that included in that was something that happened and police,

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Speaker 1: what impairment? What exactly are they trying to say? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think what they're the road that they're going to

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Speaker 1: go down with this see is actually a condition I

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Speaker 1: know you've heard of before. It's excited delirium, and that

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Speaker 1: is it goes back. It was actually first identified back

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds. And what this means is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's go back to what he said, I'm claustrophobic.

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Speaker 1: I'm claustrophobic. That's an indication that this guy has got

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Speaker 1: something going on in his mind. I'm cloustrophobic by nature.

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Speaker 1: I don't like to be in tight spaces. You pinned

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Speaker 1: somebody down, and now you're blowing their blood pressure and

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Speaker 1: their pulse rate up, You're reducing their oxygen uptake. It

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Speaker 1: is a lethal combination. The problem, you know, he's compliant.

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Speaker 1: The police are not compliant in this if they were

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Speaker 1: actually taking time. The most striking thing about this entire

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Speaker 1: thing is that the officer is sitting there, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: on in the street with George on the ground, and

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Speaker 1: his knee is on his neck, and it's very nonchalant.

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Speaker 1: He's got his in the army we used to call that.

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Speaker 1: He was John Wayning. He's got his hands in his

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Speaker 1: pocket with his knee and he's just kind of casually

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Speaker 1: looking around. And this man is begging for his life

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Speaker 1: and suddenly he goes silent. They don't get anything else

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Speaker 1: out of him. After he's actually calling Mama, Mama, to

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Speaker 1: think Karen Stark psychologists joining me out of New York.

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Speaker 1: This grown man, in his last minutes is calling for

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Speaker 1: his mother while a knee was dug into his neck,

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Speaker 1: and of all people, by a cop. I mean, you know, Karen,

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Speaker 1: I will bend over backwards to support the cops, to

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Speaker 1: support our justice system, to support prosecutors, and try to

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Speaker 1: understand why they do what they I cannot support this.

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Speaker 1: I get the riots. I understand why everybody's crazy angry.

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Speaker 1: I don't get looting Gucci or any other store. I

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Speaker 1: contacted my longtime friend, you know, were Well Eleanor Eleanor

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Speaker 1: Owdom that I prosecuted with in DC. Guess where they

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Speaker 1: were right before we went to air. She and her

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Speaker 1: husband Peter were walking to their church because it was

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Speaker 1: attacked last night and they're trying to go over there

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Speaker 1: and help fix it. Now. I don't know how that's

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Speaker 1: honoring mister Floyd, but I do know why everybody's angry.

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Speaker 1: The fact that he's calling out for his mother. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they couldn't hear that, but as you could tell, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: they might have been able to hear it. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they heard it. But this guy. I like what Joe

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Speaker 1: said that it had to do with him having this

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Speaker 1: John Wayne's stance where he could care less what he

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Speaker 1: was saying, and the fact that he was calling for

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Speaker 1: his mother tells you he was dying. He was desperate.

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Speaker 1: I heard my own mother call for her mother when

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Speaker 1: she was really, really in pain. As for the violence,

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Speaker 1: it's not a surprise to me. When you take huge

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Speaker 1: crowds of people who are frustrated and filled with hurt

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Speaker 1: about the way they've been treated in the system, about racism, discrimination,

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Speaker 1: and you have them in this tense environments so many people,

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Speaker 1: it's inevitable that violence is going to occur. Either the

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Speaker 1: police will react and the respond to that, or their

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Speaker 1: frustrations will boil over. It's a crowd mentality. It's very

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Speaker 1: different than an individual crime stories with Nancy Grace. The

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Speaker 1: death of forty six year old George Floyd has sparked

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Speaker 1: protests and violence all across our country. And it's easy

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Speaker 1: to say that the violence of the protests are tearing

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Speaker 1: our country apart. But what about as I see it,

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Speaker 1: the murder of George Floyd. Video surveillance is show in

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Speaker 1: a struggle and a struggle with police in the back

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Speaker 1: of the police car before being pulled out. Now, many

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Speaker 1: would argue, let me go to you, James shell Night,

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Speaker 1: you were twenty seven years metro major case detective swat

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Speaker 1: now lawyer. Many are arguing, well, he put up a

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Speaker 1: fight in the back of the police car. All right,

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Speaker 1: that's bad. Don't put up a fight against cops. But

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Speaker 1: my point is, once he's pulled out and put on

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Speaker 1: the ground in handcuffs, he's subdued. Why why didn't have

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Speaker 1: to go further than that? What should the cop? What

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Speaker 1: should the cop have done? Shall Nut Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why you take a combative individual out of a

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Speaker 1: police car anyway. I understand that sometimes try to kick one.

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Speaker 1: That's a good point. Yeah, I mean I've had windows

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Speaker 1: get the back of cars. Well, put people in the

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Speaker 1: back of cars. I get it. I understand. That's just

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Speaker 1: a bad idea to me. You know, there's ankle restraints

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Speaker 1: and leg restraints to prevent people from and that's a

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Speaker 1: bad idea. But number two, once you take him out

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Speaker 1: and you put somebody on the ground that they're on

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Speaker 1: their stomach, it is not very difficult to control that

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Speaker 1: person if they are handcuff You know, there's simple techniques

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Speaker 1: such as raising the wrist up and there a little further.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't take putting your knee on the back of

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Speaker 1: someone's nick to maintain control of a manness on the ground.

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Speaker 1: I just I can't fathom under what training scenario or

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Speaker 1: what real life scenario that that would be appropriate. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to our friends. In Minneapolis's WCCO four Christianne Kadero,

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Speaker 1: Floyd was arrested around eight pm for forgery, a non

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Speaker 1: violent crime that implies he tried to use forged documents

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Speaker 1: at a nearby deli. Officers say he resisted arrest before

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Speaker 1: this person started filming. You can see him struggling, saying

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Speaker 1: I can't breathe. Another officer faces the crowd the whole time.

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Speaker 1: What you cannot see is what happens. Four minutes in

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Speaker 1: Floyd appears to go unconscious. The MPD officer holds his

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Speaker 1: knee on him for another four minutes until he pulled

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Speaker 1: onto a stretcher, then taken to HCMC, where he died.

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Speaker 1: Minneapolis Mayor Jacob fry I saw this entire video, called

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Speaker 1: it wrong on every level. This does not reflect the

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Speaker 1: values that Chief Arredondo has worked tirelessly to instill. It

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Speaker 1: does not represent the training we've invested in or the

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Speaker 1: measures we've taken to ensure accountability. We're learning more about

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Speaker 1: what happened inside the Cup Foods. Back to Minneapolis WCCO,

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Speaker 1: this is esmy. Murphy County Attorney Mike Freeman was overheard

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Speaker 1: telling a reporter that all four police officers had invoked

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Speaker 1: their Fifth Amendment rights against self incrimination and we're not cooperating.

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Speaker 1: Police also release the transcript of the nine on one

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Speaker 1: call from Cup Foods. The nine on one caller says

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Speaker 1: a man gave them fake bills and that the man

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Speaker 1: is sitting on his car because he is awfully drunk

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Speaker 1: and he's not in control of himself. The nine on

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Speaker 1: one caller seems more concerned about the man then fearful,

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Speaker 1: telling the dispatcher he's not acting right now. The medical

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Speaker 1: examiner announced this evening they are waiting on lab results

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Speaker 1: for a final determination of cause of death in this case.

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Speaker 1: Legal ex world say the cause of death is critical

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Speaker 1: because if it turns out to be asphyxiation, that and

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Speaker 1: that video would make prosecutor's jobs much easier. Let me

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Speaker 1: understand something inside the cut video to Sierra Gillespie investigative

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Speaker 1: reporter Crime online dot Com Sierra. In the video we

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Speaker 1: see him lying there flat, not moving, but in cup foods.

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Speaker 1: They say he was acting strangely. What do we know, Yeah, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: he was acting a little bit out of the norm

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Speaker 1: of character. We are still waiting on toxicology. We touched

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Speaker 1: on that a little bit, so people are kind of

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Speaker 1: at a question mark here. What was really in his system.

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Speaker 1: He could have, I don't know, represented a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a runk person at times, kind of fumbling around

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Speaker 1: a bit, but it was nothing that was belligerent in

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Speaker 1: the store. It was nothing that was caused for we

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Speaker 1: need police here right now because we're hearing for our danger.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't something like this. It was just more, this

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Speaker 1: guy isn't really right right now. We have this twenty

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Speaker 1: dollars counterfeit bill. We need to call police because that's

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Speaker 1: kind of protocols. Apparently Weaving having difficulty walking and that

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Speaker 1: was before nine one one was called. But it seems

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Speaker 1: to me, Jose Scott Morgan, then if you were drunk,

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Speaker 1: if you haven't drinking, that you'd be even easier to subdue.

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Speaker 1: It's not like he was belligerent or angry not an angry,

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Speaker 1: agitated drunk, but as an unsteady on your feet drunk.

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Speaker 1: If that that makes it seem like it would be

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Speaker 1: easier to subdue him, Joe Scott. Yeah, if that, in

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Speaker 1: fact is the agent that we're talking about from a

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Speaker 1: chemical standpoint, if it's if it's something other, it could

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Speaker 1: trigger another response. So that's why they're waiting on talks. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily completely why talks is interminably slow, as

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Speaker 1: you well know, uh, you know, in dealing with the cases.

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Speaker 1: And they're going to do a standard panel on him, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna look not only for a BA which is

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Speaker 1: a blood alcohol level to see if that was on board,

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Speaker 1: but they're also going to look for standard things like opiates.

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Speaker 1: They're going to look for benzodiazepine. They're gonna look for cocaine, metabolite,

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Speaker 1: and even THC. All of that stuff will be covered.

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Speaker 1: I think that they're going to fast track this. I

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Speaker 1: would imagine this isn't going to be like you know,

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Speaker 1: in the old days, where we had to sit around

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Speaker 1: and wait and wait and wait and wait. And there's

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Speaker 1: also a political aspect of this. I'm sure that the DA,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor, the police, and the m are all going

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Speaker 1: to meet before this information is released. And my fear

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Speaker 1: is is that if it doesn't say what either side

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Speaker 1: wants to hear, it's going to create a problem. But

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Speaker 1: we have to be patiently at this point trusting what

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Speaker 1: anybody says. I'm glad we're bringing in an independent, independent pathologist, Jason,

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Speaker 1: So all the cops lawyered up and took the fifth.

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Speaker 1: Do you you have Jason Joss with me in the meantime

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Speaker 1: while we wait to rehook him up. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to CBS WCCO for Minneapolis Jennifer Mayry Department of Public

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Speaker 1: Safety Chief John Harrington that came back up to the

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Speaker 1: podium to let us know that Derek Chovin is in custody.

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Speaker 1: Derek Chovin is a former Minneapolis police officer seemed prominently

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Speaker 1: on the video that has been seen around the world

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Speaker 1: who is on the ground with his knee on George

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Speaker 1: Floyd's neck. People have been calling for his arrest since

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Speaker 1: seeing that video. They have been calling for his arrest,

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Speaker 1: protesting riding in the streets of Minneapoli US. Derek Chauvin

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Speaker 1: is now in custody. We are being told that he

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Speaker 1: was taken into custody by the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to Chief Harrington delivering that news. I've just

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Speaker 1: received information from Andrew Evans, the superintendent of the Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Criminal Apprehension, that the officer who has been identified

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Speaker 1: as Derek Chauvin in the death of mister Lloyd has

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Speaker 1: been taken into custody by the BCA. We will be

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Speaker 1: giving out further information when we have it. At this point,

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Speaker 1: we do not have any further information on charging decisions

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Speaker 1: that will be coming from the county Attorney. Learned a

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Speaker 1: lot about the BCA there. They call it Bureau of

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Speaker 1: Criminal Apprehension, not fugitive Squad BCA. Derek Chauvin, forty four

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Speaker 1: year old, under arrest in the death of George Floyd.

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Speaker 1: Do I have Jason Ash's back? Jason are you there? Yes? Now, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I don't hear him, so I'm gonna go to James

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Speaker 1: shell Nut on that. James shell Nut sounds like the

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Speaker 1: cops are all taking the fifth hold on shell Not

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Speaker 1: to you, Karen, start your psychologists explain to me, when

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Speaker 1: you see a cop, you see Chauvin with his knee

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Speaker 1: on the net a Floyd. Why do the other cops

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Speaker 1: just stand there and don't do anything because they don't care, Nancy,

425
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: I mean deper than that grandfant. I don't know that

426
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: they don't care. But it's a fellow officer, so they're

427
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: supporting what he's doing. They they are. They even went

428
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: one of them went and chucked and checked the pulse

429
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: and knew there was no pulse. But it's a situation

430
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: where I believe they're paralyzed, not saying that it's right,

431
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: wore a pressure exactly. It's their fellow officer, and so

432
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: they are in a position where did they go against

433
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: him or did they seem like they're supporting him? And

434
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: they're frozen? Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking

435
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: about the death of George Floyd. Unarmed, mister Floyd dying

436
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: his face down on the pavement after telling cops repeatedly,

437
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: reportedly fourteen times, I can't breathe and calling out for

438
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: his mother as bystanders stood by begged the cops to stop.

439
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: They didn't stop. Now he's dead. What about the other

440
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: cops involved? What's happening with them? Take a listen now

441
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: to our friends at k STP. ABC. Maya son to

442
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: Maria says the two men worked for her as recently

443
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: as last year. She says she does not know if

444
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: Derek Chauvin and George Lloyd Ever actually spoke to each other.

445
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: The first time she saw this video, Maya Santa Maria

446
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: says it took her a moment to make the connection

447
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: because my friends said said, this is your guy, the

448
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: guy who used to work for you, and I can

449
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: since it's not him, and then they did it close up,

450
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: and that's when I said, oh my god, that's him,

451
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: she says. Now, former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin worked

452
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: security for her at El Nuevo Rodeo for seventeen years

453
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 1: before she sold the club just months ago. He sometimes

454
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: he sometimes had a real short fuse and he seems afraid.

455
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: When there was an altercation, he always resorted to pulling

456
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: out his mace and ever sprang everybody right away. Then

457
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: when I felt it was unwarranted. Even more surreal, Santa

458
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: Maria says, is that George Floyd, the man pinned under

459
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: Chauvin's knee on Monday night, worked for her too. So

460
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: what does this mean to Sierra Gillespie. They knew each other.

461
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: I don't know that we can say definitively that they

462
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: knew each other, Nancy, but they were in the same community.

463
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 1: They probably may have even run into each other at

464
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: some point ahead of this. But I think it's important

465
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: to know what we just heard in that news package

466
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: that Chauvin may have had a history with violence. She

467
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: said that he always ran for his mace instead of

468
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: kind of just talking things out. What we do know

469
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: he had been involved in several other officer involved shootings

470
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: over his time with the Minneapolis Police Departments, and nearly

471
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: twenty complaints were filed against him. Now I looked into this,

472
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 1: we weren't sure exactly what the complaints are, but I mean,

473
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: eighteen complaints over his nineteen years with the department. That

474
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: sounds like a lot to me. James Shelnutt, is that

475
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 1: a lot? It sounds like a lot to me too. Yeah,

476
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: I think that's a lot. You know, the reality of it, Nancy,

477
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: is that if you're doing your child as a police officer,

478
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: you are going to get complainants. They're unaboridable. Is going

479
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: to happen if you do it long enough and you

480
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: do the right thing. And you step up and you

481
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: enforce the law. People don't like getting arrested, and people

482
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: don't want the police. They are going to complaint. That

483
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: number of complaints is the number of complaints that as

484
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: a police administrator, you start looking a little bit deeper

485
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: into these complaints, the more cumulative they become, and you

486
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: start one or into yourself and start asking questions, do

487
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: we have a problem with this officer? This is a

488
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: lot of complainants. So now we know there are charges,

489
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: but listen to the charges. WCCO four Minneapolis asked me, Murphy, listen.

490
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,239
Speaker 1: Former minniaps police officer Derek Chauvin has been charged by

491
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 1: the hand of a county attorney's office with murder and

492
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: with manslide. County Attorney Mike Freeman left open the possibility

493
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: of more charges against Derek Chauvin, as well as charges

494
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: against the other three officers. Investigations ongoing. We felt it

495
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: appropriate to focus on the most dangerous perpetrator, but we

496
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: are leading the investigation. The announcement of a possible charge

497
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: had been widely anticipated at a news conference yesterday. The

498
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 1: fact that it didn't happen has been criticized for fueling

499
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: the frustration blind last night's protests. We have now been

500
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: able to put together the evidence that we need. Even

501
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: as late as yesterday afternoon we didn't have all that

502
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: we needed, we have now found it. To you. Sierra Gillespie,

503
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. What are the charges?

504
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: So right now, the only officer that is facing charges

505
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: is Derek Officer Schaubin, and he's facing third degree murder

506
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: and second degree manslaughter. And these are kind of interesting

507
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: charges here. Third degree murder, I don't think you hear

508
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: that that often. And basically what that just means is

509
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: he didn't intend to kill. Like he didn't wake up

510
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: this morning with a premeditated I'm going to kill George Floyd.

511
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't a situation like that. But when he was

512
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: put in the situation, he didn't have any regard for

513
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: human life. He knew that there was a risk and

514
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: he just acted carelessly. To Jason Eshen's New York defense attorney,

515
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: what does third degree murder Maine? Exactly? Well, it was

516
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: described pretty well. I mean it's it's that that act

517
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: that causes it. It's like a criminally negligent thomicide, I mean,

518
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: a reckless act without regard knowing that something. It pulls

519
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: away the intention. Uh, it's watered down murder charge in

520
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: Leyman's terms. What was the sentence on a third degree?

521
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: I haven't looked into Minnesota statute, but I got murder

522
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: Minnesota penalty. Jackie and Mancy, I will tell you this.

523
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 1: Many states don't have a third degree. Yeah, that's my point.

524
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: A lot of people don't even have it because it's

525
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: so watered down and it's so weak. And you know

526
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: the reality is, Jason, you could say that about a

527
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: lot of murders, the majority of murders. I didn't wake

528
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: up that morning and main to shoot my wife. It

529
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: just happened, doesn't matter. The law, as I remember, presumes

530
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: you intend the natural consequence of your act, Jason. As

531
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: I would tell jurors, it's like taking a piece of

532
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: fine china and then throwing it down onto a cement

533
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: floor and then say, oops, I didn't mean to break it. No,

534
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: you point a gun and pull the trigger. The law

535
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: presumes you mean to kill. You hold your knee on

536
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: a man's neck for this long, the law presumes you

537
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 1: mean to suffocate him. A bit more nuanced right there,

538
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: that's a good summation for the jury. Um, but are

539
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: you telling me I'm a more nuanced No, I would

540
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: never do that. I'm just saying it's a bit more nuanced.

541
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 1: But you are right in that time, I can't believe

542
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 1: a third degree murder. Jackie says, it's twenty five years

543
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: according to our legal expert, Google, Google, Google and Google.

544
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: So tell me about that. The maximum? Is that the maximum?

545
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: The max? Right? What's the minimum? What's the men? Okay,

546
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: there's who is James. There's a recommended twelve and a

547
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: half and guidelines no prior confections, no prior history. And

548
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: jack also, while you're there, um, look up in Minnesota

549
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: put Minnesota second degree manslaughter penalty. So we're looking at

550
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: twelve and a half to twenty five on that. Why,

551
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: I mean shall Nut you're not just major case or swat.

552
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: You're also a lawyer at shall Nut Law Firm dot com.

553
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: That's your website. I think you're a lawyer. So how

554
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: is my argument just nuanced? Nuanced? As Jason Oceans just said,

555
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: it's dead on that's the law. What does it say

556
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: up to ten years in prison? However, most likely will

557
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: serve five five to ten on second degree manslaughter. So

558
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: tell me what was wrong with that argument? Why is

559
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: this not murder? One shall not? I think that it

560
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: could be. You know, you and I both know that

561
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: that intent to commit a murder can be formed in

562
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: the blink of an eye. Malice of four thought can

563
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: just be an instant, just a moment before this occurs.

564
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: This went on for eight minute maybe minute number one.

565
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't intentional. Maybe minute number two, maybe minute number five,

566
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: maybe minute number seven. But I think that by the

567
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: time you get to minute number eight and this man

568
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: goes from talkative to agitate, it to unconscious, telling you

569
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: that he can't breathe, and you continue to put your

570
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: knee on the back of his neck, that's a problem,

571
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 1: and you start to really get close to being able

572
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: to meet that birth Take a listen to Minneapolis news

573
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: reporter Asney Murphy WCCO four. This new charging document does

574
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: contain a revelation. It says Floyd did not die of

575
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:54,280
Speaker 1: strangulation or asphyxiation. The document says Floyd had heart disease

576
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: and that the combined effects of mister Floyd being restrained

577
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: by the police, he's underlying health condition and any potential

578
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 1: intoxicans in his system likely contributed to his death. I speaking,

579
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: the third degree murder charge is the same charge Freeman

580
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: used to successfully prosecute Minneapolis police officer Mohammed Nor in

581
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen death of Justine Rustchuk. Damon Nor is

582
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: now serving twelve and a half years in prison. I

583
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: don't believe it, J Scott, tell me if I'm wrong.

584
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: I do not believe this guy died from heart disease, restraint,

585
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 1: underlying health conditions and other intoxicas in a system which

586
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,919
Speaker 1: they don't even know what those intoxicas may be. Right now,

587
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 1: I don't believe that the man's saying, I can't breathe,

588
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: I can't breathe, I can't breathe. He dies. I mean, well,

589
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: that's that's the cool thing about having Michael Boden come

590
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: in behind them, because right now, you know they're saying

591
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: that that there's no evidence of strangulation, asshixiation. And we know,

592
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: just from years of talking about this Nancy to some

593
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: things we look for, hemergon strap, muscles of the neck,

594
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: does he have the TIQII in the eye, all those

595
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: things that go along with an asphyxial death. What Boden

596
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 1: is going to do. Now, my understanding at least is

597
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 1: that he is going to perform or has performed, a

598
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: second autopsy. So what that means is that everything that

599
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: was taken in hit up Ac County at the Medical

600
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: Examiner's office, he will be able to review. There's even

601
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: an all tense that he will take a look at

602
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: mister Floyd's body again in another location and he's going

603
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: to be looking for trauma of the neck. He's gonna

604
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: look at this very carefully. You know, Boden was neck

605
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: deep and no pun intended in the Epstein case. He

606
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: was present for Epstein's so he has a plethora, as

607
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: you know, of experience in these types of death. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

608
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: I'm not even concerned about Boden's experience. I know Boden.

609
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: He's a great Emmy. I just I want answers. Like

610
00:39:54,680 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: everybody else, we wait as God willing justice foles, no

611
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: matter what it takes, no matter what it causes, the

612
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: truth is what we're looking for. Nancy Grace Crime Story

613
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: signing off, Goodbye friend,