Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: My sense has always been that the yasser are going
Speaker 2: to decide this, you know, not Jay Monahan, not Roy McElroy,
Speaker 2: not this new fangled board of directors. It's he's got
Speaker 2: the money, he's got the juice, and it is it
Speaker 2: has been his creation that he's nurtured, and he's very
Speaker 2: close to some of the key live players and they
Speaker 2: bought into his vision.
Speaker 1: I got daughts in my head.
Speaker 3: Can't get him joh not the thing what I'm thinking about.
Speaker 3: Can't get him out, jo Not the thing what I'm
Speaker 3: thinking about.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the fire Drill Podcast. This is
Speaker 2: Alan Shipnak joined by Matt Janella. We want to talk
Speaker 2: about the state of the game, the state of the
Speaker 2: fire Pit, some of the things are working on, and
Speaker 2: just kind of do a little catchup. Maddie Thing, thanks
Speaker 2: for jumping on here.
Speaker 4: Well, I got to go to the horse's mouth. I
Speaker 4: want to get the I want to get. I wanted
Speaker 4: to get the scoop and who better than you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, We'll dive into live golf and all the
Speaker 2: latest developments. It's like every day it never ends. I'm
Speaker 2: going to be literally they'll be printing my book I'm
Speaker 2: going to be at the pretty facility, like handwriting notes
Speaker 2: in the margin because things just keep happening. But before
Speaker 2: we get going, let's let's thank our sponsors, Dormy Workshop.
Speaker 2: Anything you want to say about our friends over at Dormy, Matt.
Speaker 4: No, I mean, it's just that they are an incredible
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Speaker 4: they make is quality leather head covers and accessories. I
Speaker 4: met these guys, the Bishop Brothers, at the PGA Merchandise
Speaker 4: Show almost ten years ago, and when I used to
Speaker 4: run around the morning drive looking for things to promote
Speaker 4: for buddies trips or gifts or things gadgets, I couldn't
Speaker 4: help but always go to the Dormy Workshop stand and
Speaker 4: grab some of their stuff that they that they'd made.
Speaker 4: It's just incredible. I just don't think there's anybody else
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Speaker 4: and personalize certain personalizing certain things and creating certain things
Speaker 4: that every time they post something, you're like, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: They got some sort of baseball glove headcover now that
Speaker 4: looked like you can personalize, and they've done some great
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Speaker 4: and get some of their fire pit headcovers and stash bags.
Speaker 4: Or go to Dormy Workshop dot com and use promo
Speaker 4: code fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent off some of
Speaker 4: the stuff that they have on their website. I really
Speaker 4: appreciate their support.
Speaker 2: Same. So the latest twist and turns, you know, Jaymonahan,
Speaker 2: his excellency Yasser Aldermayan, and Greg normanans some into Capitol
Speaker 2: Hill to testify about what's really happened with behind the
Speaker 2: scenes getting some of the anti trust issues that set
Speaker 2: for July eleven. As part of that, they had to
Speaker 2: turn over the five page framework Agreement, which was the
Speaker 2: signed document that led to this earthquake. And they they
Speaker 2: talked around it and and and Jimmy Dunn as well
Speaker 2: had pulled out some of the language and their press appearances,
Speaker 2: but no one had seen the document. And then by
Speaker 2: turning it over to the it's good to know how
Speaker 2: how how quickly the US government people are to leak documents.
Speaker 2: It was like it dropped in Washington, c within minutes.
Speaker 2: Everybody had it. But we thanked them for their service.
Speaker 2: There weren't any bombshells, really, you know, I think that
Speaker 2: that that Jay and Jimmy and others have been pretty
Speaker 2: good at summarizing the contents of this agreement. But there
Speaker 2: were definitely some nuggets. I mean, one that that jumps
Speaker 2: out right away was the line in there that that
Speaker 2: the PGA Tour and the dp World Tour are going to, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, try their best to get world ranking points
Speaker 2: for live golf. And it's interesting because they were fighting
Speaker 2: hard to prevent that. But you know, obviously the landscape
Speaker 2: has changed. It's obviously a win for live. That's one
Speaker 2: of the things that's sort of legitimized. The entire thing
Speaker 2: is and it's been this background battle. The larger question,
Speaker 2: you know, what's gonna happen to live golf? I mean
Speaker 2: that there's really three or four big questions. What in
Speaker 2: this new merger. What's gonna happen to live golf? How
Speaker 2: are they going to make hole the players who stayed
Speaker 2: loyal to the PGA Tour, whether there's live or not.
Speaker 2: How are players gonna be re into you know, how
Speaker 2: are the live guys going to be reintegrated into the
Speaker 2: larger landscape. Those are the biggies, And there wasn't a
Speaker 2: lot of clarity in that document. But uh, it was
Speaker 2: it was certainly interesting to see. And I will say
Speaker 2: Keith Pelly signature is off the charts, like I mean
Speaker 2: if people make fun of my signature when I'm siding
Speaker 2: books at SFO. But it was ornate and funny.
Speaker 4: But you don't wear those kinds of you don't wear
Speaker 4: those kinds of glasses and that variety of color and
Speaker 4: have kind of a bland you know, autograph. It just
Speaker 4: it's just not part of the deal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good call. It's all it all work.
Speaker 2: It's it's the totality of Keith Helly. But your sense has.
Speaker 4: Always been that live lives though. Your sense is that
Speaker 4: why would they scrap it? This was this was Yasir's
Speaker 4: baby and it made it or it made or makes
Speaker 4: no sense to you that they would just completely scrap it,
Speaker 4: And especially if there's going to be some sort of
Speaker 4: process and sort of the players not don't automatically get
Speaker 4: back in right like and they've got contract, Like, I
Speaker 4: don't see how how there's a situation where it just
Speaker 4: goes away.
Speaker 2: My sense has always been that that Yaser are going
Speaker 2: to decide this, you know, not jay Monhan not Roy McElroy,
Speaker 2: not this new fangled board of directors. It's he's got
Speaker 2: the money, he's got the juice, and it is it
Speaker 2: has been his creation that he's nurtured. And he's very
Speaker 2: close to some of the key live players and they
Speaker 2: bought into his vision, right. They're the ones who took
Speaker 2: the leap of faith and that meant so much to
Speaker 2: him personally and to the you know, this the whole
Speaker 2: idea of the cloud. He's getting into professional golf and
Speaker 2: and then those pioneers essentially brought us to this moment,
Speaker 2: and so there is a loyalty there, and there's there's
Speaker 2: a sense of ownership and but at the same time,
Speaker 2: I mean, he's a ruthless businessman, and so I think
Speaker 2: I think they're going to take a hard look at it.
Speaker 2: It's clear that this is this process is going to
Speaker 2: be ornate, and the idea that it's going to get
Speaker 2: wrapped up here in the coming months is pretty fanciful.
Speaker 2: The framework agreement expires on December thirty first this year. However,
Speaker 2: there is language that they can they can extend that
Speaker 2: and that seems likely, even though it throws into uncertainty
Speaker 2: so much. You know, there was a board meeting today
Speaker 2: that this is Tuesday, and you know that the tours
Speaker 2: in Detroit at Rocket Mortgage and there was a Player
Speaker 2: only meeting and then the board met and put out
Speaker 2: a statement basically saying that we're committed to working on
Speaker 2: this process. But some of the language in there was interesting.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like, if we can finalize the agreement,
Speaker 2: not when you know there's been a lot of pushback
Speaker 2: internally from the Player directors, especially Patrick Cantley is an
Speaker 2: interesting person in all of this. He's been he's been.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what did you say, Patrick Kantley has been
Speaker 4: an interesting Person's amazing.
Speaker 2: I know, breaking news. Yeah, the word interesting is rarely
Speaker 2: applied to the guy, but he is. He is smart,
Speaker 2: and he is strident, and someone who's dealt with him
Speaker 2: on governance issues describing to me as a terrific penis
Speaker 2: I said, I didn't quite get it. It's like he's
Speaker 2: a big dick, like he's just hard to deal with
Speaker 2: and he's all along, has just been pushing for the
Speaker 2: interests of the Delaware twenty three, you know, just the
Speaker 2: top guys who've been sort of setting this policy. And
Speaker 2: he really doesn't care about the journeyman. He doesn't care
Speaker 2: about the opposite field events. He's kind of gone all
Speaker 2: in on this tour within a tour, which is fine,
Speaker 2: but it's created a lot of hard feelings because that's
Speaker 2: the majority of the players out there. And so now
Speaker 2: he's pushing back on this framework agreement and a lot
Speaker 2: of details and you know it, whatever gets agreed upon
Speaker 2: between Yasser, Jimmy Dunn, jay Monhan or his replacement, because
Speaker 2: that remains an unknown, it's still going to have to
Speaker 2: be approved by the PGA Tour Board. And the players
Speaker 2: now have five votes. Rory's one of them. I mean,
Speaker 2: he's obviously he was thrown to the wolves here. He
Speaker 2: could be persuaded maybe to go against the tide. And
Speaker 2: then Peter Malnaughty, who was elected, you know, sort of
Speaker 2: a journeyman to represent the little guy. I mean, it's
Speaker 2: easy to imagine him siding with Can't Lay and these things.
Speaker 2: So right, there's three votes, and it gets interesting because
Speaker 2: this people talk about this like it's a done deal,
Speaker 2: but it's not. And that's becoming more and more clear.
Speaker 2: And there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of
Speaker 2: give and take, and there's gonna be a lot of wrangling,
Speaker 2: and this process is not done. It's just beginning.
Speaker 4: I mean so, uh, this to me has always felt
Speaker 4: like the sum total of Live was doing what it
Speaker 4: was doing. The tour had reacted the way it reacted.
Speaker 4: They were the sponsors. We knew enough. You've known way
Speaker 4: more than me, but we've talked to a lot of
Speaker 4: tournament sponsors. We know tournament sponsors were not happy. They
Speaker 4: were lined up and talking about their future to say,
Speaker 4: we have a watered down product. You're asking us for
Speaker 4: more money. Uh, this this makes no sense. That doesn't
Speaker 4: pencil out. You're talking at us, not with us. We
Speaker 4: keep getting surprised by this news and everything that goes
Speaker 4: along with it. You're trying to control what it is
Speaker 4: that you know, our our sometimes decades long commitment to
Speaker 4: this tour product, and you're treating us like this. You know,
Speaker 4: we we knew the Jim Cranes were very verbal and
Speaker 4: vocal right from the from the outset, and we're and
Speaker 4: we're you know, using leverage, and he was one of
Speaker 4: the guys who could have afforded. So you know that
Speaker 4: there was a lot of places that were so we
Speaker 4: knew the tour was was against the ropes, non sustainable
Speaker 4: water down product, asking for more money. You know, something
Speaker 4: had to give. So this this, this seemed to me
Speaker 4: like Done and Hurley he got in this room and
Speaker 4: said for the better of Like we'll deal with the
Speaker 4: players later. They're going to eventually understand that without this whatever,
Speaker 4: you know, let's not call it a merger, but without
Speaker 4: this agreement, without this partnership, without piff money, and without
Speaker 4: trying to find a way of union, you know, unifying
Speaker 4: this world of professional here when they talk about golf,
Speaker 4: this is good for golf, this is this is professional golf.
Speaker 4: This is this is like just professional golf. The difference
Speaker 4: between NFL and baseball and when no one's running around
Speaker 4: playing those sports, you know, for a lifetime you know activity, Yeah,
Speaker 4: like we do with golf, like golf. Like that's why
Speaker 4: I was trying to say in the last podcast. Is
Speaker 4: golf for me is what we play? Professional golf is
Speaker 4: this cash grab great, go get it, and the big
Speaker 4: trophies during the majors mean a little something more and
Speaker 4: you're going down in the history books and that's how
Speaker 4: you'll be judging from a legacy standpoint. But Done and
Speaker 4: Hurley he basically I think now and Monhann are left
Speaker 4: explaining to players like Can'tley or others, Hey, guys, you
Speaker 4: can either get on board with this, or you can
Speaker 4: get on board with something that is going to be
Speaker 4: like a shell of what you've been used to or
Speaker 4: what you think is happening for the future of the
Speaker 4: PGA Tour. There's no more Tiger fills it, you know,
Speaker 4: now creeping into his mid fifties, like we got to
Speaker 4: get on, getting on, or this is going to come
Speaker 4: to a crashing halt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know there's a third written true, but there's
Speaker 2: a third rail here where now that the tour has
Speaker 2: introduced this idea of becoming a for profit entity, if
Speaker 2: they can't come to terms with the piff the Saudis,
Speaker 2: they could go to other private equity folks. And there's
Speaker 2: there's plenty of been sniffing around. I mean, Rain Capital
Speaker 2: was involved with the Premier Golf League and they're they're
Speaker 2: still involved. I mean the guy who runs rain Capital,
Speaker 2: essentially Colin Neville. He was in the room in Delaware.
Speaker 2: He's been an advisor to Rory and Tiger, and he
Speaker 2: could probably raise a billion dollars with a few phone
Speaker 2: calls now.
Speaker 4: So they can still go for for profit without having
Speaker 4: this part this this this deal get.
Speaker 2: Done, yeah, because that's in the language like if basically
Speaker 2: it's one of the clauses that was in this this
Speaker 2: framework agreement. We're going to try our best and good
Speaker 2: faith to make this work, and if not, we'll shake
Speaker 2: hands and go our separate ways and can continue doing
Speaker 2: our own thing. And so you know everyone's talked about
Speaker 2: well this this was a trojan horse by the Saudis
Speaker 2: start live force the tour to capitulate take over the tour.
Speaker 2: Well you could look at the other way around. This
Speaker 2: is a trojan horse by the tour to become for profit,
Speaker 2: to introduce this idea of reshaping the business. They can
Speaker 2: now discard the Saudis trying to reclaim the moral high ground,
Speaker 2: and the players will go along with anything at this
Speaker 2: point because they understand the extential crisis to their business.
Speaker 2: And you can bring in a blackwater. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: there's a million hedge funds and private equity places out
Speaker 2: there that would would pour money into it. So this
Speaker 2: it's a little fragile right now. And you know clearly
Speaker 2: that the piff has more money than anybody else but
Speaker 2: they don't have all the money. There's other places, and
Speaker 2: so that that becomes a whole interesting subtext to this.
Speaker 2: Now it just to continue the thought exercise. If that
Speaker 2: were to happen, it's still a win for the tour.
Speaker 2: And that they've ended the litigation and that was dismissed
Speaker 2: without prejudice, meaning you can never refile it like it's
Speaker 2: done forever. All the both.
Speaker 4: Sides wanted that, right, That was the other thing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: ten poles, none of those top guys wanted their phones confiscated,
Speaker 4: emails revealed, none of that, like all those they all
Speaker 4: and the Saudis wanted. Everybody wanted to keep their own ship,
Speaker 4: their own ship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, the ending the litigation does not
Speaker 2: end the Department of Justice anti trust investigation. So it
Speaker 2: definitely turns the volume down on all the legal wrangling.
Speaker 2: But the Department of Justice is still sniffing around. And
Speaker 2: you know, Monahan's comment that we did this to take
Speaker 2: a competitor off the board was a huge blunder because
Speaker 2: that just gives more scrutiny to this. This notion that
Speaker 2: this merger, which is not really a merger, but that's
Speaker 2: become a common usage, was designed to, you know, to
Speaker 2: to thwart the competition between these two entities, and that
Speaker 2: that is classic anti trust. So and that's why these
Speaker 2: guys are getting haled in front of in front of
Speaker 2: you know, senators because this is this is an ongoing issue.
Speaker 2: It does taking away the lawsuit and the kind of
Speaker 2: lawsuit does help, But the Department of Justice, they're the
Speaker 2: ones who are snatching the phone. It's not the lawyers
Speaker 2: for each side, they don't have that authority, but the
Speaker 2: Department Justice does. So that's that's an ongoing background. So
Speaker 2: for this framework agreement to become final, they have to
Speaker 2: convince the board, they have to get the players behind it,
Speaker 2: and they have to survive an anti trust investigation. So
Speaker 2: it's it's tenuous, but.
Speaker 4: There's also a fract. There's also a there's also a
Speaker 4: splinter between the It's not just the players on board,
Speaker 4: right there is there is this whole group of players
Speaker 4: who are represented by a whole group of agents who
Speaker 4: are like, where do we fit into all of this? Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean that the agents in the in the
Speaker 2: age of Live had more power they've ever had before
Speaker 2: because they were the conduits for all this deal making.
Speaker 2: And you know, this guy, Magined al Soror, who was
Speaker 2: running live day to day for its first year plus.
Speaker 2: He was a great relationship builder with the agents, and
Speaker 2: a lot of them call them like my guy. You know,
Speaker 2: Imagined was my guy. He's gone now. But the agents,
Speaker 2: it was it was like Christmas every day for them.
Speaker 2: You know, they these once in a lifetime windfalls. Because
Speaker 2: it's so funny how this is so subtle. But the
Speaker 2: relationship between agents and players varies. But generally they get
Speaker 2: twenty percent of endorsement money, but they don't get anything
Speaker 2: that's on the golf course. Now, what is the live contract.
Speaker 2: It falls into this gray area. It's not a classic endorsement.
Speaker 2: It's like an appearance feed, but not exactly. It's it's
Speaker 2: not winnings per se. And so the players and the
Speaker 2: agents had to negotiate this individually, how they were going
Speaker 2: to handle these big signing bonuses. And generally they most
Speaker 2: didn't pay twenty percent, some paid as little as ten,
Speaker 2: some paid fifteen. But these were you know, fifteen percent.
Speaker 2: One hundred million dollars is a heck of a lot
Speaker 2: of money for these agents, and so.
Speaker 4: Instead of negotiating for their clients, the negotiating with their clients.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating subtext. I get into all
Speaker 2: the stuff in the book. And so yeah, if this,
Speaker 2: and this is another thing that was in the framework
Speaker 2: agreement is that they agreed that players cannot switch to
Speaker 2: while this is being negotiated. So there's the idea of
Speaker 2: Live recruiting other players is on hold until this shakes out. Now.
Speaker 2: If so, just to extend this thought exercise, what happens
Speaker 2: if this whole thing blows up, Well, then Live is
Speaker 2: back in business. The tour has forfeited the moral argument.
Speaker 2: They've they've given the stamp of approval to the Saudi money.
Speaker 2: Then therefore there's no reason for anyone to stay on
Speaker 2: the PGA tour. So so the tour is like fighting
Speaker 2: for its life here. They've got to consummate this agreement.
Speaker 2: But there's these powerful forces that are making it complex.
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be interesting to see how this all
Speaker 2: plays out. And to your question of like fifteen minutes ago,
Speaker 2: I never fully answered what happens to Live. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's increasingly clear they're going to play a live schedule
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four because this is not going to
Speaker 2: be resolved, there's contracts in plays, the schedules finalized, So
Speaker 2: I think Live is safe for twenty four and then
Speaker 2: then it's going to be a fundamental question. And you know,
Speaker 2: for for Yasir, it's still his baby and he has
Speaker 2: absolute power. Right, So, like people weren't tuned into this,
Speaker 2: but the season finale U for this year and Live
Speaker 2: Golf was supposed to be in Miami, it got it
Speaker 2: got moved to Jetta, Saudi Arabia. No one in Live
Speaker 2: wanted it to go to Jedda. So now their biggest,
Speaker 2: most important event is played in the middle of the
Speaker 2: night with no fans and in a you know, versus Miami,
Speaker 2: which is a fun party town. It's be in prime
Speaker 2: time whatever. But Yaser wanted it so that therefore it's done,
Speaker 2: and so if he keeps Live going, he can reshape
Speaker 2: it along those lines. He can do whatever he wants.
Speaker 2: Whereas if you if they fold up Live and he
Speaker 2: just becomes an investor in the tour, he has tons
Speaker 2: of say. But the status quo is powerful, Like, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe they could get one tour event in Saudi Arabia,
Speaker 2: but that's far from a sure thing. And so there's
Speaker 2: various reasons to keep LIV going. Also to circumvent the
Speaker 2: antitrust say, okay, we'll just keep it as its separate
Speaker 2: thing where we're not anti competitive. We didn't we didn't
Speaker 2: shut it down. There's that, and then there's just this
Speaker 2: notion like why did they even get why do they
Speaker 2: even launch Live? I mean, clearly they wanted to become
Speaker 2: part of the Western world. They wanted to be accepting
Speaker 2: the golf world. But you know, one of the pillars
Speaker 2: of this vision twenty thirty, which is the you know,
Speaker 2: MBS has staked his whole rain on this idea is
Speaker 2: to increase tourism, and you know Live has a lot
Speaker 2: of potential there, Like they could add a second event
Speaker 2: in a different part of Saudi Arabia. You know, they
Speaker 2: could leverage the star power of their players, and you
Speaker 2: could have a Phil Micholson golf course or a brooks
Speaker 2: Kepka golf course or whatever. And so there's various reasons
Speaker 2: to keep it going.
Speaker 4: Now that cam Smith golf course would be cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would just be like Pineer's number two all
Speaker 2: domed greens, shit down.
Speaker 4: I'm going to play a cam Smith golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be a short game for days. It's kind
Speaker 2: of like what's fill did at Whisper Rock, you know.
Speaker 2: But so yeah, it's it's a very interesting question what's
Speaker 2: going to happen to live golf, And there's a lot
Speaker 2: of there's a lot of reasons to keep it going.
Speaker 2: There's reasons not to. Partly it's not making money. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's losing money. And also it would create this continued
Speaker 2: schism in the game. Even if even if the live
Speaker 2: guys can flow back and forth to the and make
Speaker 2: some cameos on the PGA tour, it's complex as long
Speaker 2: as it's in existence. So that's a foundational question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but to your point, now, it seems even if
Speaker 4: this doesn't go through, doesn't happen, there is some on course,
Speaker 4: some some live activation momentum as they're realizing if we
Speaker 4: go to places where the tour doesn't go, we have
Speaker 4: we have an audience on site. It's going to feel
Speaker 4: bigger than it's it's been feeling bigger than the US Open, oh,
Speaker 4: by the way, which is a whole other conversation. But
Speaker 4: then also you have you have it should got to
Speaker 4: be easier to get you know, some sort of distribution
Speaker 4: deals done by virtue of they're no longer apparently according
Speaker 4: to the tour, they're no longer the enemy. In this wording,
Speaker 4: the verbage that jumped out to me is they go
Speaker 4: from essentially enemy number one to premier corporate Piff being
Speaker 4: the premier corporate sponsor. The premier corporate sponsor goes from
Speaker 4: zero to hero.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, So distribution.
Speaker 4: Could get easier. They're learning from their mistakes. They still
Speaker 4: have they still have the players that are that are interesting,
Speaker 4: that's been you know, you know, Brooks, cam Phil finishing second,
Speaker 4: the Masters, these guys are these guys are playing golf. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean if to me, if I'm yeah, yeah, and
Speaker 2: you get world ranking points, it would clearly be easier
Speaker 2: to recruit in the future. I mean, if I'm auser,
Speaker 2: why not why not have the best of both worlds.
Speaker 2: You have you keep you keep liv going and you
Speaker 2: do whatever you want with it, and then you have
Speaker 2: you have you have Piff running the PGA Tour on
Speaker 2: some level like you could have. He could have both.
Speaker 2: I mean, all it takes is money. And if it's
Speaker 2: always been their strategy to get the investment back from
Speaker 2: Live to try and sell these franchises and so they've
Speaker 2: never really even gone to market with that. Who knows
Speaker 2: what the market would support. I mean, it's an interesting
Speaker 2: thought exercise. Now as as as you say, they've they've
Speaker 2: been welcomed into the larger ecosystem. So it's it's gonna
Speaker 2: be fascinating to see how this plays out. And on hand,
Speaker 2: you know, what if if Jay walks away and well,
Speaker 2: you know, the the Senate testimony is gonna be very
Speaker 2: interesting because if he doesn't show up for that, then
Speaker 2: it's pretty clear either his health problems are more serious
Speaker 2: than they've led on or he's he's he's stepping away.
Speaker 2: And if he does show up, it's gonna be a
Speaker 2: big deal. It's probably gonna be his first public appearance
Speaker 2: and there'll be a lot of energy around that. So,
Speaker 2: you know, where does Monaghan fit into this? There's no
Speaker 2: clear successor, Like you know, Tim Fincham made it very
Speaker 2: obvious that Jay Monahan was going to succeed him. Because
Speaker 2: Monahan's so much younger and he's only been on the
Speaker 2: job for five years, there hasn't been an obvious candidate
Speaker 2: to replace him yet, and so that would touch off
Speaker 2: a whole other thing because it's already a big job.
Speaker 2: Now it could be monumental.
Speaker 4: So why I saw Jimmy Dunn at Augusta National a
Speaker 4: few weeks before the Masters with Rory McElroy and Shane Lowry,
Speaker 4: they and Tom Brady. It seemed to me that they're
Speaker 4: very close, Rory being Rory, Jimmy Dunn being Jimmy Dunn.
Speaker 4: I mean Jimmy Dunn is that they would the PGA
Speaker 4: Tour would be in a good place if Jimmy Dunn
Speaker 4: stayed at the wheel from a from a business standpoint
Speaker 4: and from a from a diplomatic standpoint, just in the
Speaker 4: Pulley has with play with key players.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's an interesting idea. I'm not sure
Speaker 2: he'd want it because being the commissioner is a grind.
Speaker 2: I mean, you're going to thirty plus events a year,
Speaker 2: every player on tours in your in your ear, bitching
Speaker 2: about X, Y and Z. You've got to glad hand
Speaker 2: all the sponsors. You've got to. It's you're negotiating tons
Speaker 2: of contracts. You've got to. There's a corporate side, there's
Speaker 2: a TV side, there's pick a pick a commissioner.
Speaker 4: If you if you could wave a wand right now,
Speaker 4: based on all that you know and everything you've seen
Speaker 4: and heard, who's the best commissioner to replace ja Jamon
Speaker 4: And if that, if that were to come about.
Speaker 2: Mm I would say Joe Ogilvie, you know, former tour player,
Speaker 2: now in the finance world, incredibly smart, knows the business.
Speaker 2: How's the respect of the players?
Speaker 4: You know, like twenty five years.
Speaker 2: I mean, it was always kind of a joke just
Speaker 2: because he was he was so clever and so well spoken.
Speaker 2: But now he's had success in the business world and
Speaker 2: he's become kind of this oracle. Uh, you know when
Speaker 2: he talked about these things, people pay attention. One of
Speaker 2: the reason that Dean Bemon had such a long run
Speaker 2: was because he was a player, and he was a
Speaker 2: pretty successful player and he and it's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons why the guys on LIV love Greg Norman because
Speaker 2: he just has a player's perspective. You know, Finchham didn't
Speaker 2: have that, Monahan doesn't have that. So I think at
Speaker 2: this very fraught year, to have a former player would
Speaker 2: would be huge. I mean, we joke about Jeff. I
Speaker 2: know I was gonna say, we joke about Jeff all
Speaker 2: the time because he has such a great mind. I
Speaker 2: know for a fact he doesn't want the job because
Speaker 2: it's so thankless, even though it's a nice paycheck. Got
Speaker 2: But yeah, So, I mean, the think about Jimmy Dunn,
Speaker 2: Like that Golf Channel interview he gave or he said
Speaker 2: he would you know, he would kill the terrorists himself,
Speaker 2: Like that was a major red flag. Of all the
Speaker 2: out of pocket things that have been said during this
Speaker 2: whole controversy, that was one of the wildest. And you know,
Speaker 2: you need a certain disposition and a certain diplomacy to
Speaker 2: be the commissioner, especially in this fraught moment. And there's
Speaker 2: no doubt that Jimmy Dunn is great at building relationships
Speaker 2: in various grill rooms of fancy golf clubs, and people
Speaker 2: love his company. But you know, that was sort of
Speaker 2: his national debut in the media spotlight, and that was
Speaker 2: like wow, I can't believe he just said wow. So
Speaker 2: I liked it.
Speaker 4: I mean, I liked I liked the fire. But I
Speaker 4: get your point, He's probably not the best to be like.
Speaker 4: I was like, Okay, I love I mean, I've I've
Speaker 4: had a couple of really cool experiences with Jimmy Dunn.
Speaker 4: I would I would follow him, you know, anywhere he went.
Speaker 4: But that was that was that was that was abrupt
Speaker 4: and abrasive to be said on Golf Channel.
Speaker 2: Yeah all of all. So who knows like that would
Speaker 2: be a big job.
Speaker 4: Greg Norman, in your mind, stays or goes regardless. I mean,
Speaker 4: what's the what is his status?
Speaker 2: I think he'll fight hard to stay on through twenty
Speaker 2: four and have pretend he has the role and to
Speaker 2: to look like he has the place in this new
Speaker 2: world order. And but clearly he's been an impediment if
Speaker 2: we're trying to put the game back together. None of
Speaker 2: the tour players want him around. No one in pont
Speaker 2: of Euder Beach wants him. I think, you know, Greg's
Speaker 2: almost seventy. I think you know, I was told by
Speaker 2: people Live he has a huge gold in parachute. I
Speaker 2: think he stays on as long as he feels like
Speaker 2: he can declare victory and then just just sort of
Speaker 2: right off into the sunset. He's so polarizing and so divisive,
Speaker 2: I can't imagine he would last longer than that. Assuming
Speaker 2: that this gets consummated and this new code does be
Speaker 2: come a thing, if it all blows up and Live
Speaker 2: just stays independent, then maybe you know he'll last longer.
Speaker 2: But if you're trying to to reimagine professional golf, I
Speaker 2: don't see a place for him.
Speaker 4: Meanwhile, Tiger would like, what what what? Obviously you've heard nothing,
Speaker 4: because otherwise everyone would have heard something. But what is
Speaker 4: where is Tiger?
Speaker 2: I mean, what I have heard about Tiger is that
Speaker 2: he wasn't stoked, but he also understands. I mean, Tiger's
Speaker 2: Tiger's a very black and white personality, right.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: He doesn't get caught up in the nuance like he
Speaker 2: That's just how he's always kind of done things. And
Speaker 2: when he ends in a relationship, it's over and it's
Speaker 2: cold blooded.
Speaker 4: He locks the door.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, we're gonna drive you to the airport on vacation,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna change a lot from while you're gone
Speaker 2: like that. So I think Tiger's already moved on. Like Okay,
Speaker 2: I said, if I wanted to say, I took a
Speaker 2: stand the other side. The other side prevailed tentatively, and
Speaker 2: let's go. I mean, how he's already thinking of, you know,
Speaker 2: ways he can leverage this. I'm sure he's looking at
Speaker 2: golf course design projects somewhere in the Persian golf as
Speaker 2: we speak, you know, at least on Google Maps whatever.
Speaker 2: Like Tiger's a pretty rapacious businessman. And now now he
Speaker 2: just got the okay to do business in Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 2: So you know, his his arguments were always about the
Speaker 2: competitive nature of live golf, I mean everything he said.
Speaker 2: He never made the moral argument. He always said, I
Speaker 2: don't like it because they haven't earned it. And the
Speaker 2: players who are going over there, what's the incentive to practice?
Speaker 2: Where the guaranteed money? All this and that you know,
Speaker 2: Tigers saw it through the competitive lens, and so I
Speaker 2: don't think he's.
Speaker 4: The other from a legacy lens too. Like we talked
Speaker 4: about eighty two and fifteen. You know, if there's some
Speaker 4: sort of like breakaway tour and everything goes that direction,
Speaker 4: then and eighty two PGA Tour wins and fifteen majors,
Speaker 4: fifteen majors, you know, can stand stand the test of time.
Speaker 4: But eighty two PGA tour wins is something that think
Speaker 4: about what that took to get to that number. That's
Speaker 4: a number worth worth protecting and standing by. If I
Speaker 4: would never know, but eighty two wins is eighty two wins.
Speaker 2: I totally agree. I mean Tiger was trying to preserve
Speaker 2: the legacy the PGA Tour. That's always been his platform.
Speaker 2: That's where and if the tour is devalued, then on
Speaker 2: some level people could possibly devalue his accountment. It's hard
Speaker 2: to imagine. You know, what he did, it will always
Speaker 2: stand the test of time, but you don't want the
Speaker 2: tour diminished, and you know, potentially this strengthens the tour.
Speaker 2: I mean I said this previously, like that, if you take,
Speaker 2: if you set aside the moral argument, which is complex,
Speaker 2: but if you can, if you can eliminate that, this
Speaker 2: could be a huge win for the PGA Tour. You
Speaker 2: they still control the day to day bureaucracy, have access
Speaker 2: unlimited money. They can craft a global schedule that incorporates
Speaker 2: the best European tour events, and they can they can
Speaker 2: get back players that matter. Cam Smith matters Brooks Kopka
Speaker 2: very much, matters Dustin Still. Could you know name a
Speaker 2: few others, Patrick reied, I mean, Bryson's played great in
Speaker 2: the majors like that. It doesn't serve the tour's interest
Speaker 2: not to have access to those players. So I think
Speaker 2: Tiger sees that Okay, we're this is going to strengthen
Speaker 2: the tour if it goes through. And even if even
Speaker 2: if the fift deal falls apart, they're gonna They're gonna
Speaker 2: wind up with private equity money and the tour can
Speaker 2: can can retrench. So I think I think Tiger he
Speaker 2: never wants to be on the outside looking in. That's
Speaker 2: not a it's not his normal position. But he's a
Speaker 2: he's a bottom line guy. And I think he recognizes
Speaker 2: that the tour had to do something in here.
Speaker 4: And and let's not kid ourselves. And Mark Steinberg is
Speaker 4: a huge player in the in the game of professional golf,
Speaker 4: given his relationship with and and and partnership with Tiger Woods.
Speaker 4: So I mean there's he's gonna have to get whatever
Speaker 4: it is he needs to get or wants to get
Speaker 4: out of some sort of deal as it relates to
Speaker 4: not only Tiger but his stable of players. I just
Speaker 4: I I still wonder where, where and what he's how
Speaker 4: involved he is in all of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that goes back to why I set
Speaker 2: the top up, making the players hole. I mean, Steinberg
Speaker 2: very clearly with with Tigers urging and nudging, refused to
Speaker 2: send anybody to live. The only the only Excel Sports
Speaker 2: management guy who went with Thomas Peters, and they parted
Speaker 2: ways of them as soon as he landed in Mexico.
Speaker 2: So this new co is now a chance for these
Speaker 2: players to get paid for their loyal t you know,
Speaker 2: Jimmy Dunn talked about granting them equity in the new company.
Speaker 2: That could be very valuable over time. But what these
Speaker 2: guys want is cold hard cash. And there's no more
Speaker 2: rules anymore. It's if it's a for profit business, they
Speaker 2: can They could just give spot bonuses. Okay, Rory, here's
Speaker 2: one hundred million, John ram here's your seventy five million.
Speaker 2: This is your loyalty bonus. They can They can give
Speaker 2: all the middle class, the guys who are so up
Speaker 2: in arms at the players meetings. They can say, Okay,
Speaker 2: you know in twenty twenty three, you got a five
Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars stipend from the tour. Now it's three
Speaker 2: million dollars. How do you feel now? Now they're happy.
Speaker 2: They can they can be your appearance fees, there can
Speaker 2: be bonuses, there's all this stuff. The piff money now
Speaker 2: allows the players to be repaid for their loyalty, even
Speaker 2: Chess and Hadley, which is funny because he was so
Speaker 2: bitchy about it. But and so Steinberg needs that. He
Speaker 2: needs that because he told his players not to go,
Speaker 2: and he drew a line in the sand and they gave.
Speaker 2: They left a lot of money on the table collectively.
Speaker 2: So this is important for the Steinberg's of the world
Speaker 2: and his players and the guys who didn't go. They
Speaker 2: need to get paid and the PIFF money allows them
Speaker 2: to do so.
Speaker 4: It also allows the tour to will continue to work
Speaker 4: with sponsors that they want to work with, that they've
Speaker 4: been working with at an affordable rate. So if the
Speaker 4: number is twenty million that they need to get to
Speaker 4: per tournament, and PIFF puts in ten and that means
Speaker 4: the AT and T's or the Chevrons or whoever else
Speaker 4: you know, whoever else is coming in as you know,
Speaker 4: John Deere's and every but now it's there can still
Speaker 4: there can be an affordable rate. You're back down to
Speaker 4: the eight to twelve to potentially you know, the fifteen
Speaker 4: million dollar range as opposed to asking these these sponsors
Speaker 4: for twenty million and you get a better product as
Speaker 4: a result. Do you think there there is some potential
Speaker 4: for a live versus tour team events and you know,
Speaker 4: to to cash to cash in on some sense of
Speaker 4: the the uh, the competitive spirit so to speak.
Speaker 2: I mean that would be a blockbuster if if live endurors,
Speaker 2: why not have a couple of co sanctioned events and
Speaker 2: you know that people don't pay any attention to them,
Speaker 2: but they have these point standings on live for both
Speaker 2: the teams and individual players. Based on how they finish,
Speaker 2: they accrue points, and so you could say, okay, the
Speaker 2: top six live teams will then now take on six
Speaker 2: teams of PGA Tour loyalists. And how how much fun
Speaker 2: would that be and how the tour players arrange that
Speaker 2: would be that'd be part of the backstory who who
Speaker 2: drafts who, all the allegiances and how much fun would
Speaker 2: those tournaments be? I mean there would be like a
Speaker 2: real energy around them, and the money could count for
Speaker 2: you know, the tour money list, and the PIFF could
Speaker 2: pay the whole perse and that could that would be
Speaker 2: a huge boost to live obviously, and I think it'd
Speaker 2: be fun for fans. And there was language in the
Speaker 2: framework agreement that you know that the pg Tour and
Speaker 2: the European Tour will make this good faith effort to
Speaker 2: incorporate Team Golf into its schedule. It's quite possible to
Speaker 2: just cannibalize the idea if Live goes away, But if
Speaker 2: Live enders, I think it would be insane not not
Speaker 2: to have some of these tournaments where you bring it
Speaker 2: together and it just creates this this whole other subplot.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and a whole other marketing component in terms
Speaker 4: of logos and merchandise, and it's a way for I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, and if you take if you take this
Speaker 4: ZERI Classic and see the popularity of that sub event
Speaker 4: within the tour already and you kind of expand upon that.
Speaker 4: So so just to summarize, your biggest takeaway from reading this,
Speaker 4: you know, this term sheet, so to speak, is that
Speaker 4: it's got a long way to go to actually become
Speaker 4: a reality to you know that that that was your
Speaker 4: biggest takeaway, as wow, this is this is just the framework.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they're you know, when when Jay was talking
Speaker 2: about it, and Jimmy Dunn was talking about and even
Speaker 2: Yosser on CNBC, there were not a lot of specifics,
Speaker 2: so you you kind of felt like, are they holding
Speaker 2: back They don't want to say the wrong thing, But No,
Speaker 2: there are just no specifics period because they're not even
Speaker 2: in the document like they were just there's nothing like
Speaker 2: they basically just sketched out in the back of a
Speaker 2: cocktail napkin and that said, okay, here took it to
Speaker 2: the lawyers to make this soun official. So yeah, there's
Speaker 2: there's clearly a long way to go.
Speaker 4: And it was like everything negotiable except for like this,
Speaker 4: this and this otherwise, like everything's on the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean if you just put those guys back
Speaker 2: in that cigar bar in London, it would not be
Speaker 2: easy to get to the finish line. Now you have
Speaker 2: all the player directors, you have all the pack you
Speaker 2: have Keith Pelly in the European Tour and all his constituents,
Speaker 2: you have the Department of Justice, you have Senator Blumenthal,
Speaker 2: like you've just added another a bunch of problematic you know,
Speaker 2: cooked into the kitchen and so it it's you know,
Speaker 2: you get you get ten tour players in the room.
Speaker 2: They can't even just have what kind of pizza they
Speaker 2: want to order, like this is this is going to
Speaker 2: be really complex. So yeah, the key takeaways are they
Speaker 2: have a long way to go. There's not a lot
Speaker 2: of clarity. The future of live golf remains uncertain.
Speaker 4: The and the future of j Monahan is uncertain. Future
Speaker 4: of Greg Norman is uncertain, future of like the future
Speaker 4: of the team component is uncertain. The future like it's
Speaker 4: just uncertain, uncertain, uncertain.
Speaker 2: The only short thing is is yaser. But again, if
Speaker 2: they can't consummate this agreement, doesn't the piff is not
Speaker 2: a sure thing like that. They have to get this
Speaker 2: in the barn. I mean, so the PJ Tour will
Speaker 2: endure on some level, whether they bring in private equity
Speaker 2: money or or they wind up with the piff. I mean,
Speaker 2: it could even prosper. But the only thing we know
Speaker 2: is that they're gonna play golf next year under the
Speaker 2: PGA Tour umbrella, and everything else is a maybe. And
Speaker 2: it's it's a fascinating moment. It it just it throws
Speaker 2: everything everything we thought we knew is is up for grabs.
Speaker 4: You know, it seemed like, what about what about the
Speaker 4: Ryder Cup? It does loosen things upright for Captain's picks
Speaker 4: Ryder Cup to to it has to write at some
Speaker 4: at some point we can drop the whole you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the crazy thing is even this
Speaker 2: new this new era of cooperation, supposedly that the rules
Speaker 2: and regulations remain like this kind of religion. And so
Speaker 2: Keith Pelly said the day after all this news broke,
Speaker 2: you know, we only have two rules to play in
Speaker 2: in on the European team, and one of them is,
Speaker 2: you know, you have to be you have to be
Speaker 2: a member of the European Tour. And all the Live
Speaker 2: guys resigned so they won't have to pay their fines
Speaker 2: and if they want to they can. They can reapply
Speaker 2: for membership, but they'd have to pay their fines, they'd
Speaker 2: have to serve their suspensions. And then Pelic said, but
Speaker 2: even then we'd have to look at it because the
Speaker 2: deadline for membership was May first, and they missed the deadline.
Speaker 2: It's like, really key, like how much more like bureaucratic
Speaker 2: can you be? So it doesn't there's not too many
Speaker 2: guys who were strong contenders to play. I mean Thomas Peters,
Speaker 2: he's got a good case. He's been playing well this year.
Speaker 2: He was you know, thirty fourth in the world when
Speaker 2: he went to Live, so he was a contender. Burned Weisberger.
Speaker 2: He played in two thousand the last Ryder Cup, so
Speaker 2: he's he was a contender. You know, he hasn't been
Speaker 2: playing that well, I mean rom and Sergios. Yes, because
Speaker 2: because rom and Sergio went undefeated last time, and because
Speaker 2: rom Is advocated and he's so important the team, Sergio
Speaker 2: was in the mix. That's probably it. So three maybes.
Speaker 2: But it's just funny the team. Yeah, well that's true.
Speaker 2: I mean it's just funny that they're, oh, they missed
Speaker 2: the deadline. We can't do anything about it, like really,
Speaker 2: like everything's up for grabs. The US has always been
Speaker 2: in a different, different scenario where the PGA of America
Speaker 2: grandfathered all the live guys in because they don't want
Speaker 2: to deal with it. They're like, here's Zach, this is
Speaker 2: your problem, not ours. So they extended their their PG
Speaker 2: of American membership, so any of the any of the
Speaker 2: live guys can play, even those who resigned their tour
Speaker 2: membership because they were grand followed in by the pg
Speaker 2: of America. So now it's going to be up to Zach,
Speaker 2: and certainly it'll make it easier for him to pick
Speaker 2: Brooks and or Dustin because the walls have come down
Speaker 2: and they're not the bad guys anymore. But you know,
Speaker 2: Brooks is a sure thing whether he qualifies or not.
Speaker 2: Dustin has not played well enough in the majors. He's
Speaker 2: played well week to week on live. But it's interesting
Speaker 2: because even that starting to change, like everyone was so
Speaker 2: quick to devalue the live victories and the live performances.
Speaker 2: I did see something. It was it was Kyle Porter,
Speaker 2: who's been very anti live, but he had a he
Speaker 2: had a list of players were on the bubble for
Speaker 2: the Ryder Cup and it was worldwide wins and he
Speaker 2: included the live events. So it's like, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: we're kind of upgrading the live events in this this
Speaker 2: new reality. So in that context, Dustin has two worldwide
Speaker 2: wins and he should be he should be a contender.
Speaker 2: I mean, Taylor Gooch is interesting because by any measure,
Speaker 2: he should probably be on the US team, but he's
Speaker 2: been so polarizing and he's been such a troll, and
Speaker 2: there's a lot of hard feelings around Taylor, and he
Speaker 2: was one of the guys who sued the tour, So
Speaker 2: I don't think he'll get strong consideration. Brooks and Dustin
Speaker 2: kind of stayed above the fray. They weren't parties to
Speaker 2: the lawsuits. They haven't been talking to any trash on Twitter,
Speaker 2: and so I think I think that they would be
Speaker 2: welcome back. Goot, no, Patrick Reid know, so those are
Speaker 2: those are probably the only other guys who would be
Speaker 2: in the mix.
Speaker 4: So what happens? What happens July eleventh?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 4: What? What's your sense?
Speaker 2: A lot of political grand standing, A lot of mealy
Speaker 2: mouthed pronouncements from the witnesses. Now will Will Yasser even
Speaker 2: show up? I mean that they they were prepared lives
Speaker 2: lawyers are prepared to go to the Supreme Court trying
Speaker 2: to prevent him from being deposed by the Department of
Speaker 2: Justice because he, you know, all Romayan has this dual
Speaker 2: role where he's a member of He's a high ranking
Speaker 2: member of the Saudi government. He's also maybe the world's
Speaker 2: most important businessman, and so as a as a sovereign,
Speaker 2: as a member of the sovereign you know, ruling party,
Speaker 2: he would probably be exempt from having to testify. As
Speaker 2: this business guy who runs a big oil company and
Speaker 2: who sponsored this this golf tour, they could probably compel
Speaker 2: him to testify. That was the early judgments from the
Speaker 2: lower courts saying, you know, that this falls. There's a
Speaker 2: carve out. If you're running commercial activities, you can't you
Speaker 2: can't claim immunity. So but that was head to the
Speaker 2: Supreme Court. That was part of why why the PGA
Speaker 2: tour cried uncle, because that was gonna take two years
Speaker 2: to get the Supreme Court. And so his role is unknown.
Speaker 2: I think they have until July fourth to declare to
Speaker 2: respond to the invitation. Essentially, Jay Day Monahan's health is unknown.
Speaker 2: The only guy who wants to be there is Greg Norman.
Speaker 2: Like he would love that because he was he's been
Speaker 2: marginalized in this process. He's had no voice, he's kind
Speaker 2: of been yeah, so he would love to be on
Speaker 2: Capitol Hill with all the cameras on him. And if
Speaker 2: you remember, you know he did this this big tour
Speaker 2: where he met with lawmakers and and this was set
Speaker 2: up by the lobbyists that live employees, and it was
Speaker 2: kind of a disaster because some of the lawmakers said
Speaker 2: they had some really harsh things to say about Norman afterwards,
Speaker 2: and the quotes went around the world. So even though
Speaker 2: he was burned, he the guy's so he lusts after
Speaker 2: the spotlight. So of the three, he's the only one
Speaker 2: who wants to be there, whether the other two you
Speaker 2: know in Monahan al Ramayan, will be compelled and or
Speaker 2: feel like it's in their best interest. So the political
Speaker 2: theater is going to be fabulous. And I don't know.
Speaker 2: I wonder if I should even if I should make
Speaker 2: a run out to d C. But we'll talk about
Speaker 2: that another time, you and I, Matt. It's gonna be
Speaker 2: it's gonna be interesting. Is it is.
Speaker 4: Your book done?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 4: Did you did? Is it done? Down? Do you still
Speaker 4: have roomed update?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I stayed up last night working on it. I
Speaker 2: mean it's the publisher has committed taking this down to
Speaker 2: the wire. It doesn't go to print until mid August,
Speaker 2: so well after this stuff on Capitol Hill will play
Speaker 2: out after the Open Championship. After there's probably gonna be
Speaker 2: a World Ranking adjudication. So I'm constantly tweaking it. And
Speaker 2: it's so it's going to be up to the minute
Speaker 2: as much as you can be with a book that
Speaker 2: has to be printed and distributed. So yeah, no, I'm
Speaker 2: still I had turned it in, but we uh. It's
Speaker 2: always a process, even in any scenario when when when
Speaker 2: you turn in a book you get it back at
Speaker 2: least twice. It goes through their copy editing, it goes
Speaker 2: through the legal review. You're always you're always vetting it
Speaker 2: and looking for you know, misplaced commas and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So there's always going to be some time now, you know,
Speaker 2: Simon Schuster and Avid Reader Press, to their great credit,
Speaker 2: they they're like, this is this is too big a deal.
Speaker 2: We have too much invested in this book. We want
Speaker 2: it to be as current as possible, so like it's
Speaker 2: institutionally we're taking it down to the last possible second
Speaker 2: so it's up to date.
Speaker 4: An excerpt obviously, will be hitting the Firepit Collective dot
Speaker 4: com at some point soon, which I'm excited about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I already kind of know what I want
Speaker 2: to do for the first excerpt. It's going to be cool.
Speaker 2: I mean, the people have said, oh, you can just whisper.
Speaker 4: It to me. You can just tell me his microphone on.
Speaker 2: We'll let Connie Chung the Nuke Gangridge just whispered you have.
Speaker 2: All the cameras were rolling and they're wearing microphones. You know.
Speaker 2: Some folks have said, oh, do does this hurt the book?
Speaker 2: I think it helps it because there's so much context,
Speaker 2: like how do we get to this moment and the
Speaker 2: first excerpt, we'll dive into that, and and the things
Speaker 2: that Jaymonhan did or did not do along the way
Speaker 2: become even more paramount. And you know, I know.
Speaker 4: Enough to know about what you've said to me through
Speaker 4: the reporting process to know the book is definitely going
Speaker 4: to benefit from all of this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's cool. The whole story is in one place.
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know the exact ending, but we
Speaker 2: we've just got a huge clue. So that's my dog
Speaker 2: whining in the background. I guess it's time to wrap
Speaker 2: up the podcast, according to Wante, but yeah, this is
Speaker 2: we didn't even get a chance to really talk about
Speaker 2: very quickly, Matt, because we tease at the top, like
Speaker 2: all the fun things that we're working on at the
Speaker 2: Firepit Collective. Give the listeners a little teaser on some
Speaker 2: of the stuff that's you know, there's these long form
Speaker 2: videos they're long ingestation Like we've been working on this
Speaker 2: stuff for a while. We haven't been able to leak
Speaker 2: it out, but what can people look forward to?
Speaker 4: Final letters are being made to our Dublin travel show
Speaker 4: as we speak. We are under the hood on building
Speaker 4: out Belfast, which I'm excited about. We're also releasing a
Speaker 4: little sizzle about the project we have going to Pasa
Speaker 4: Tiempo jim Orbina restoring the original Alistair Mackenzie Greens after decades,
Speaker 4: almost one hundred years of sand splash and wash out
Speaker 4: from you know, different components of mother nature and top
Speaker 4: dressing and all that goes with all that. There were virtually,
Speaker 4: you know, very few pinnable locations if you're gonna run
Speaker 4: them at modern day green speeds at pasta tempo. So
Speaker 4: that's that's an incredible project that that I'm really excited about,
Speaker 4: that we're excited about. We have a couple that we
Speaker 4: actually can't talk about. We you know, we've already released
Speaker 4: the sizzle of Cobbs the building of Gamble Sands, David
Speaker 4: McClay kidd building a second course there, going back up
Speaker 4: to Brewster, Washington next week. We've been out and we're
Speaker 4: documenting some of what's happening at Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia
Speaker 4: and creating a sizzle video there. Canal Shores in Chicago
Speaker 4: is another project that we we've been on site for
Speaker 4: and we're we're looking to to document some of what's
Speaker 4: going to be happening there and and you know, obviously
Speaker 4: we put out the Maggie Hathaway feature really exciting about
Speaker 4: what's happening in Los Angeles to that nine whole Part
Speaker 4: three course and the you know, upwards of fifteen to
Speaker 4: eighteen million dollars being put into to that facility, which
Speaker 4: I think is what a nice tribute to a woman
Speaker 4: who I've just gotten to learn a lot about over
Speaker 4: the course of the last you know, a few months
Speaker 4: and beyond. And wow, what a powerhouse. You know, I
Speaker 4: talk about Susie Whaley or maryon Hollins or some of
Speaker 4: these other women who have had a big impact in
Speaker 4: the world of golf. Mega Maggie Hathaway is was all world.
Speaker 4: I wish I got to get got to meet her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of our secret projects. My shoes are
Speaker 2: still dirty. I'm coming in hot from a secret spot
Speaker 2: in San Francisco and I can't say any more than that,
Speaker 2: but it was today and yeah, I mean, just just
Speaker 2: to give people a better idea, like these are all
Speaker 2: really cool golf course projects, restorations, new builds, whatever they
Speaker 2: may be, and we're kind of some of them are
Speaker 2: chronicling from the very very beginning and going back over
Speaker 2: time to see how it evolves. And you're there with
Speaker 2: the architects and the builders and the guys and the
Speaker 2: bulldozers and you know where I was today, they were
Speaker 2: hydro seeding. They're blasting, you know, thousands and thousands of
Speaker 2: grass seilings all over the It's like cool a lot
Speaker 2: and it's education for us and the one There are
Speaker 2: all different projects different parts of the country, but the
Speaker 2: connective tissue is the passion. Like the people behind these
Speaker 2: projects are just so into it and it's all about
Speaker 2: making great golf and they're public. I mean, Gamble Sands
Speaker 2: is just waiting for people to make that pilgrimage. Positive
Speaker 2: Tempo to me is one of the most important golf
Speaker 2: courses in the world because it's prime Alistair mackenzie that
Speaker 2: anybody can play. It's half the price of Pebble Beaches.
Speaker 2: It's not cheap, but it's doable. You don't have to
Speaker 2: stay at the lodge, you know, it's it's not it's
Speaker 2: way cheaper than Pinehurst than any of these other citadels
Speaker 2: that really exclude a big chunk of the population because
Speaker 2: they're just so pricey and Pasa Tempo is a dream,
Speaker 2: and so for us to be out there as these
Speaker 2: iconic greens are being rebuilt and we're we have the
Speaker 2: cameras rolling and we can bring the whole process to
Speaker 2: life like that's going to be so cool for people
Speaker 2: to get to watch all those.
Speaker 4: Had to happen. I mean those greens, you know, ninety
Speaker 4: years old, drainage issues, you know, pinnable locations, and it
Speaker 4: being as important as it is as you just described,
Speaker 4: Alistair McKenzie accessible the membership. What they did, and you know,
Speaker 4: we've been following along for well over a year, what
Speaker 4: they did for the greater good of their course, the
Speaker 4: future membership for anybody who's going to rock up and
Speaker 4: play that golf course ten years from now, thirty years
Speaker 4: from now, fifty years from now. I give him a
Speaker 4: lot of credit. That took guts and took a lot
Speaker 4: of cohesive conversation and collaboration communication. Justin mannon the superintendent,
Speaker 4: there was critical Scott Hoyt, the former GM, Steve Vargo's
Speaker 4: there now, the current GM ken Woods is the head pro.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of really smart people on their board,
Speaker 4: the decision makers, and Jim orbina Is talk about passion
Speaker 4: and an understanding of McKenzie and the drawings he has
Speaker 4: access to and what they're doing USGA, you know, greens
Speaker 4: from a drainage standpoint, they're able to follow the layering
Speaker 4: and the aging of the sand and dirt as they
Speaker 4: cut into that, into those those greens, and they're able
Speaker 4: to see the original undulation of those greens based on
Speaker 4: on the sort of the aging layers of the land
Speaker 4: of the sand, and they can still make, you know,
Speaker 4: judgment calls, and they can still sort of compromise based
Speaker 4: on what they what they ultimately want to do. But
Speaker 4: this is going to be a fascinating reveal for architectural
Speaker 4: geeks or or agronomy geeks, for pasta tempa alistair McKinsey geeks,
Speaker 4: for golf geeks considering what that golf course is and
Speaker 4: what it means to golf in America. I put it
Speaker 4: in the conversation with the Pebbles and the Pinehurst number
Speaker 4: twos and in terms of accessible, but then also the
Speaker 4: pine Valleys and Chicago Golf Clubs and National Golf Links
Speaker 4: of America. This is this is one of the this
Speaker 4: is one of the ones that I think are way
Speaker 4: way underrated in terms of where it comes in on
Speaker 4: the rankings. I see some of the rankings and where
Speaker 4: positive tiempo is as it relates to some of the
Speaker 4: other Jabbroniville golf courses that are in the top one hundred,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, it's an embarrassment. It's an embarrassment.
Speaker 2: Gauzer rants or something.
Speaker 4: It's a bond, like it's like a joke.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean it's it's up there with Augusta
Speaker 2: National and Cyprus Point and Royal Melbourne. I mean, anyone
Speaker 2: can go play it, like I know, that's what's so amazing,
Speaker 2: and it's epic. Oh it is, it really is.
Speaker 4: And it's going to get even better because now Justin,
Speaker 4: who's an incredible superintendent, is going to be able to
Speaker 4: run them real fast on fair and pinnable locations. So
Speaker 4: it's going to get it's just going to get more
Speaker 4: interesting and more fair and more and more fun. But
Speaker 4: it's not necessarily going to get you know, get people like,
Speaker 4: oh it's going to be too easy. No it's not.
Speaker 4: Now they can put pin. Now they can tuck pins
Speaker 4: and have it actually be fair. So yeah, that's that's
Speaker 4: one of the things I'm most excited. I mean, every
Speaker 4: one of them is so different. It's development, restoration, rent, innovation.
Speaker 4: You know, it's a little bit of you know, it's municipal,
Speaker 4: it's community assets, it's you know, we're we're we're diving
Speaker 4: deep into all these different projects. And I don't think
Speaker 4: that this is going to end in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: I think this is going to be a big part
Speaker 4: of what we do as a company going forward, in additional,
Speaker 4: in addition to some of the other stuff. So yeah,
Speaker 4: it's this is a this is a good time to
Speaker 4: be doing what we're doing, storytelling around some very interesting
Speaker 4: and compelling stories. So thanks for all that you're doing
Speaker 4: keeping us updated on on this fight for the soul
Speaker 4: of the game. And and meanwhile it's fun to collaborate
Speaker 4: on some of this other stuff as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I've seen some of the rough cuts on
Speaker 2: these things. People are going to love it. Like the
Speaker 2: Ireland stuff is so rich. And you know, you've been
Speaker 2: been on the travel beat for thirty years basically, and
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people do in travel, but you
Speaker 2: were there first, and you have this this depth of
Speaker 2: knowledge and uh, these relationships and I mean you're practically
Speaker 2: an honorary Irishman at this point, So oh, Janella, like,
Speaker 2: we're gonna I're gonna have to rename it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's part of the Dublin thing. I go
Speaker 4: find my family heritage. And would you believe that my
Speaker 4: great great grandfather, Michael Boland farmed, rented, and then bought
Speaker 4: and farmed eighteen acres of land within a stone's throw
Speaker 4: of Doonebeg golf course. So fucking Donald Trump was my neighbor.
Speaker 2: Got eighteen acres. We could have put an incredible little
Speaker 2: part three course in the dude.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna do it. We're gonna held out my grandma.
Speaker 4: Apparently my grandma tried to buy it and she wasn't
Speaker 4: a citizen at the time, so she she couldn't get it.
Speaker 4: But bringing my family back in a couple of weeks
Speaker 4: and we're going to go find it.
Speaker 2: I love it. Well, that's great, al right, So I
Speaker 2: just a little teacher too. Lots of stuff happening here
Speaker 2: at the fire pit. Thanks for making to the end
Speaker 2: of this podcast. We appreciate all you listeners. We will
Speaker 2: keep coming at you. I'm gonna I had to get
Speaker 2: the book done. I'm gonna get back to writing my
Speaker 2: weekly asked Allen columns, so we can look for those,
Speaker 2: and lots of lots of fun stuff percolating here. So
Speaker 2: for Matt Janella, this is Alan Schipnuk. That was another
Speaker 2: Fire Drill podcast. Thanks for listening, and this is the end. Goodbye.
Speaker 3: I'm bed big again.
Speaker 1: I played the wind, made a fortune when my ship
Speaker 1: came and I ran the table and never thought I
Speaker 1: could fall down the wind and time hit me. Lack
Speaker 1: of cannon the ball, and now I can't I shake this,
Speaker 1: losing the stream.
Speaker 3: Every road I take is a dead end street.
Speaker 2: I got thoughts in my head.
Speaker 3: I can't give them joy and not the thing what
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about. I kind of thoughts in my head.
Speaker 3: I can't get them out. Trying not to think what
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about.