WEBVTT - Adam Grant Helps Unlock Our Hidden Potential 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:21.756 Pushkin Hay Slight Changers, It's Maya. Before we get to 0:00:21.796 --> 0:00:23.876 this week's episode, I wanted to let you know that 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:26.796 I'm launching a newsletter. It's a place where I can 0:00:26.916 --> 0:00:30.396 update you about the podcast, my life, and other exciting news. 0:00:31.076 --> 0:00:32.836 If you'd like to sign up, you can visit the 0:00:32.836 --> 0:00:36.076 link in our show description or go to Maya Shunker 0:00:36.116 --> 0:00:38.916 dot com. That's m A y A s h A 0:00:39.116 --> 0:00:40.956 n k a r dot com. 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:52.436 Thanks. 0:00:54.076 --> 0:00:56.516 So much of learning requires us to put ourselves in 0:00:56.556 --> 0:01:00.356 uncomfortable situations because that's where the challenge lies. But the 0:01:00.356 --> 0:01:03.676 fear of embarrassment holds us back, and so we end 0:01:03.756 --> 0:01:06.916 up making these tiny little adjustments instead of big leaps. 0:01:07.596 --> 0:01:10.596 Author and podcaster at A Grant is back on a 0:01:10.636 --> 0:01:13.676 slight change of plans, and he's got a new book 0:01:13.796 --> 0:01:17.116 full of ideas for how we can unlock our hidden potential. 0:01:17.996 --> 0:01:20.556 One of his tips is to think differently about how 0:01:20.596 --> 0:01:21.956 we learn from others. 0:01:22.556 --> 0:01:25.076 A lot of people think being a sponge is about 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:28.676 just absorbing as much information as you can seek infinite 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:33.596 amounts of feedback. Engage all of your critics, not so much. 0:01:34.196 --> 0:01:37.556 Not all critics are thinking critically, and I think a 0:01:37.636 --> 0:01:40.396 huge part of being an effective sponge is being proactive, 0:01:40.636 --> 0:01:43.396 not just about what you take in, but also what 0:01:43.436 --> 0:01:44.956 you expel out. 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:56.156 On today's episode, how to Unlock Your Hidden Potential, I'm 0:01:56.196 --> 0:01:58.956 maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:59.316 --> 0:02:01.476 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:15.756 in the face of a big change. Adam is an 0:02:15.836 --> 0:02:19.436 organizational psychologist and a professor at the Wharton School at 0:02:19.476 --> 0:02:22.836 the University of Pennsylvania. He's also the author of a 0:02:22.876 --> 0:02:26.436 bunch of bestsellers and a repeat visitor to the Ted stage. 0:02:26.876 --> 0:02:29.516 I'm pretty sure after one more Ted talk he can 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:33.476 turn in his punch card for free sandwich. Adam's new 0:02:33.516 --> 0:02:37.596 book is called Hidden Potential, The Science of Achieving Greater Things, 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:40.716 and as you'll hear, this is one of my favorite 0:02:40.716 --> 0:02:45.036 topics to discuss and spar with him about. I started 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:48.676 our conversation by asking Adam why he's so interested in 0:02:48.716 --> 0:02:50.276 the topic of hidden potential. 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:53.916 I think there are so many reasons to be interested 0:02:53.916 --> 0:02:56.036 in it. I mean, how many times have you met 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:59.596 somebody who didn't live up to the potential you saw 0:02:59.636 --> 0:03:02.676 in them because they didn't see it in themselves, or 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:04.836 because they weren't lucky enough to have a coach or 0:03:04.876 --> 0:03:07.436 a mentor, or a teacher or a parent who saw 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:09.996 it in them. And I think the fundamental mistake we 0:03:10.076 --> 0:03:11.956 make can we make this mistake when we're judging other 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:15.316 people and when we're evaluating ourselves, is that we assess 0:03:15.356 --> 0:03:19.476 potential by where we start, and if something's easy for us, 0:03:19.596 --> 0:03:23.076 if we have a natural talent for it, then we 0:03:23.116 --> 0:03:25.756 assume there's a very highest ceiling on our potential. And 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:28.756 if we struggle early or if we fail, we think 0:03:28.956 --> 0:03:31.716 this is not for me. And what we overlook is 0:03:31.756 --> 0:03:34.796 that growth is not determined by where you start. It's 0:03:34.796 --> 0:03:37.356 about the distance you can travel. But we can't see 0:03:37.356 --> 0:03:39.236 that distance yet, right. We don't have a crystal law 0:03:39.236 --> 0:03:41.516 to look into the future, and so we end up 0:03:41.556 --> 0:03:44.716 missing out on a great deal of possibility that I 0:03:44.756 --> 0:03:45.956 think goes unrecognized. 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:48.716 Yeah, and one thing I loved reading about in your book, 0:03:48.756 --> 0:03:50.916 as you say, the things that you're most proud of 0:03:51.476 --> 0:03:54.516 aren't the domains where you've gotten to the highest heights. 0:03:54.516 --> 0:03:56.836 It's actually where you started off at the lowest point 0:03:57.236 --> 0:03:59.356 but made a ton of progress along the way. So 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:00.916 can you share a little bit more about that. 0:04:01.836 --> 0:04:06.236 I really loved sports growing up, and after failing to 0:04:06.276 --> 0:04:08.996 make the middle school basketball team and the high school 0:04:08.996 --> 0:04:12.396 soccer team, I turned my attention to springboard diving, which 0:04:12.476 --> 0:04:14.836 I had sort of caught the bug for late as 0:04:14.876 --> 0:04:18.076 a teenager. And it was abundantly clear that I did 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:20.116 not have the physical talent to be a great diver. 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:22.876 My teammates called me Frankenstein because I didn't bend my 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:26.116 knees when I walked, which was ironic because in order 0:04:26.156 --> 0:04:27.916 to touch my toes I had to bend my knees. 0:04:27.956 --> 0:04:31.596 I wasn't flexible, I didn't have the grace or explosive power, 0:04:31.956 --> 0:04:35.876 and I was also afraid of heights, so not exactly 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:39.516 set up for success. And I had an extraordinary coach, 0:04:39.596 --> 0:04:42.636 Eric Best, who said on day one of practice, I 0:04:42.676 --> 0:04:45.796 will never cut anyone who wants to be here, and 0:04:46.476 --> 0:04:49.756 if you know, if you focus your energy on this, 0:04:49.876 --> 0:04:51.876 I believe you can be a state finalist by the 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:54.796 time you're a senior in high school. And thanks to 0:04:54.916 --> 0:04:57.076 Eric's coaching, I made the state finals as a junior 0:04:57.076 --> 0:05:00.436 in high school, and I got nowhere near the Olympics. 0:05:00.516 --> 0:05:03.316 Let's be clear, I could not have qualified for Olympic 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:06.516 trials if my life depended on it. But I got 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:08.716 a lot better than I ever expected. I ended up 0:05:08.796 --> 0:05:11.476 qualified for the Junior Olympic Nationals twice, and I made 0:05:11.476 --> 0:05:13.476 the All American list and ended up getting recruited a 0:05:13.556 --> 0:05:17.316 diving college. And it was such a pivotal experience for 0:05:17.396 --> 0:05:20.476 me to realize just because I start with a lack 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:24.236 of talent doesn't mean I can't overcome many of the 0:05:24.276 --> 0:05:25.316 obstacles on my path. 0:05:25.596 --> 0:05:29.036 Yeah, yeah, I resonate with your story. I truly think 0:05:29.076 --> 0:05:33.356 there's nothing that I enjoy more in life than witnessing progress. 0:05:33.436 --> 0:05:36.076 Well maybe a really good Indian meal cooked by my mother, 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:40.316 but second to that, I love witnessing progress. And so 0:05:40.556 --> 0:05:43.196 I think my version of Adam as the diver is 0:05:43.996 --> 0:05:47.716 I began learning Mandarin about six years ago or so 0:05:47.916 --> 0:05:51.916 because my husband's Chinese and none of his relatives speak English, 0:05:51.996 --> 0:05:53.476 and so I thought, oh, this would be a really 0:05:53.596 --> 0:05:56.876 nice way to connect with his family and you know, 0:05:56.916 --> 0:05:58.996 try to show them that I, you know, really love 0:05:59.076 --> 0:06:01.116 Jimmy and I really you know want to fit into 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:05.276 the family. And talk about a low starting point, Adam, 0:06:05.556 --> 0:06:08.956 I took the cake there, I promise, But the joy 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:13.356 of improving at a language that I found so challenging 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:17.516 has been intoxicating, like truly. So I remember there was 0:06:17.556 --> 0:06:20.436 this one day where I got into a lift and 0:06:20.596 --> 0:06:22.756 it was clear that driver was a little bit uneasy 0:06:22.796 --> 0:06:25.236 because he didn't speak English. And then I looked at 0:06:25.236 --> 0:06:27.876 his phone and I saw Chinese characters, and I was like, 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:30.276 this is my moment, and so I filt of all 0:06:30.276 --> 0:06:32.996 this courage and I spoke to him in broken Mandarin 0:06:33.356 --> 0:06:35.916 and he understood what I was saying. And after I 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:38.036 got out of that lift, I called Jimmy and I 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:40.916 was squealing. It was literally like the best day of 0:06:40.916 --> 0:06:44.276 my year. And so yeah, and that starting point again 0:06:44.356 --> 0:06:47.276 was so low that when you witness the potential that 0:06:47.916 --> 0:06:50.476 you had in a space where you really underestimated yourself, 0:06:50.516 --> 0:06:51.636 it's just so satisfying. 0:06:51.836 --> 0:06:53.876 That's amazing. I had no idea that you learned Mandarin. 0:06:54.076 --> 0:06:55.436 Where have you been hiding this secret? 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:59.676 Well, learning I inng It is a works in progress. 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:02.876 So this is what's really interesting because this, I think 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:05.436 hits on another theme in your book, which is my 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.836 decision to pick up a new language of all things 0:07:07.836 --> 0:07:11.436 in adulthood was never something that I thought would happen. 0:07:11.516 --> 0:07:15.116 And that's because I historically just sucked at learning foreign languages. 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:18.556 So in high school I took Spanish. In college I 0:07:18.596 --> 0:07:21.356 took Hi the terrible at both of them, and so 0:07:21.556 --> 0:07:24.116 I was pretty hesitant to give a foreign language a go, 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:25.436 especially in my thirties. 0:07:25.716 --> 0:07:28.476 This is so fascinating. Okay, I have a bunch of reactions. 0:07:28.636 --> 0:07:31.356 So first of all, can we just pause to mark 0:07:31.436 --> 0:07:34.156 the moment when the world learned that there was something 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:35.676 that Maya Shankar was not good at? 0:07:36.156 --> 0:07:37.956 Okay, Adam, that's. 0:07:38.036 --> 0:07:41.476 Because I mean, I think everyone admires what a natural 0:07:41.516 --> 0:07:45.116 you are at so many things you know, from your 0:07:45.236 --> 0:07:49.396 music virtuoso childhood to your mastery of cognitive science to 0:07:49.636 --> 0:07:52.556 your ability to have a conversation with anyone about anything 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:57.796 and make their complex ideas understandable. I think it's reassuring 0:07:57.796 --> 0:07:59.556 to the rest of us that there are things that 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:03.156 you two struggle with. Would be my first reaction. Secondly, 0:08:03.356 --> 0:08:06.316 I'm thinking about I guess the common arc of saying, well, 0:08:06.356 --> 0:08:09.036 I'm not a foreign language person, I lack this skill, 0:08:09.556 --> 0:08:12.116 and then realizing that it was actually not skill that 0:08:12.156 --> 0:08:14.796 you lacked entirely. It sounds to me like you had 0:08:14.836 --> 0:08:16.356 a different kind of motivation. 0:08:16.156 --> 0:08:17.836 In your thirties, one hundred percent. 0:08:18.396 --> 0:08:21.996 You were one excited intrinsically to learn, which maybe you 0:08:22.036 --> 0:08:25.236 were less so in high school. And two you also 0:08:25.236 --> 0:08:27.676 had a really strong pro social purpose here, which is 0:08:27.916 --> 0:08:31.316 you're trying to connect with Jimmy's family, and I think 0:08:31.356 --> 0:08:33.556 that probably made the language learning a lot more meaningful. 0:08:34.156 --> 0:08:37.476 Yeah, the root of your motivation matters so much when 0:08:37.516 --> 0:08:39.996 it comes to learning. So when I was in high school, 0:08:40.076 --> 0:08:41.916 it was like, Okay, just got to get through that 0:08:41.996 --> 0:08:44.716 language requirement, try to get the A because I want 0:08:44.716 --> 0:08:47.156 to get into a good college, like blah blah blah. Right, 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:49.996 And then similarly in college, I think Hindy was just 0:08:50.036 --> 0:08:52.356 a way of checking the box on the foreign language requirement. 0:08:52.876 --> 0:08:55.516 And what happened with Mandarin, like you said, is it 0:08:55.796 --> 0:08:59.156 took on this hugely emotional quality to it, right, which 0:08:59.156 --> 0:09:02.436 I wasn't expecting. And on top of feeling like I 0:09:02.436 --> 0:09:04.276 was going to be able to connect with Jimmy's relatives, 0:09:04.316 --> 0:09:07.796 what I didn't realize is that so much of culture 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:10.516 is baked into language, and so when I was learning it, 0:09:10.556 --> 0:09:14.596 I was learning about this fundamental humility that exists within 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:17.316 Chinese culture, and like how much I love that? And 0:09:17.356 --> 0:09:20.516 so it's really it's been so charming to learn about 0:09:20.556 --> 0:09:23.356 those elements, and I would have ignored them entirely in 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:25.276 the context of like a high school class right where 0:09:25.276 --> 0:09:27.036 I didn't understand how it's going to play out. 0:09:27.236 --> 0:09:29.076 Yes, and I wonder, okay. So the other thing is 0:09:29.156 --> 0:09:32.796 you talk about using it in the cab. So one 0:09:32.796 --> 0:09:35.516 of the things I learned while researching basically, how do 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:39.756 you become better at getting better? So what's the science 0:09:39.756 --> 0:09:42.476 of improving at improving? One of the things that holds 0:09:42.476 --> 0:09:44.596 a lot of us back is we're reluctant to put 0:09:44.636 --> 0:09:48.516 ourselves in uncomfortable situations. And nowhere is this more clear 0:09:48.596 --> 0:09:51.196 than learning a foreign language. If you look at why 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:53.516 so many people struggle in high school to learn a language, 0:09:53.516 --> 0:09:56.396 it's not necessarily that they lack the language gene or 0:09:56.396 --> 0:09:58.516 they missed the critical period, and if only they had 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:01.356 learned it younger, they had an aptitude that's gone. It's 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:03.516 that they're afraid to use it because you don't want 0:10:03.516 --> 0:10:06.036 to sound like an idiot. Absolutely, we don't want to 0:10:06.036 --> 0:10:09.676 embarrass ourselves, and that's totally reasonable. But the only way 0:10:09.716 --> 0:10:12.156 to learn to speak a language is to talk it 0:10:12.236 --> 0:10:14.876 out loud and to use it as you're acquiring it, 0:10:15.276 --> 0:10:17.996 whereas most people expect that they can master it, that 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:20.876 they can commit the entire vocabulary and grammar to memory, 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:24.116 and only then are they ready to speak it. I 0:10:24.156 --> 0:10:26.196 wonder if you were that person earlier. 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:29.396 I was so anxious about speaking in a foreign language, 0:10:29.476 --> 0:10:32.676 especially Chinese, where you might say a tone with a 0:10:32.716 --> 0:10:36.396 slightly different inflection, and you've now set a completely different sentence, 0:10:36.516 --> 0:10:39.236 because it's like ma versus ma, right, those mean totally 0:10:39.236 --> 0:10:41.756 different things. And yet I think what happened in the 0:10:41.756 --> 0:10:44.716 car that day and where I found the courage was 0:10:45.436 --> 0:10:49.276 he doesn't speak English. He's clearly feeling anxious. I'm clearly 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:52.116 feeling anxious that I can't communicate with him, and so 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:53.996 that I like dig within myself. I have to like 0:10:54.076 --> 0:10:56.796 excavate courage, like it's so deep inside of my body, 0:10:56.796 --> 0:10:59.476 and I pull it out and I communicate with him. 0:10:59.516 --> 0:11:03.076 And I thought to myself, Wow, talk about a emotional 0:11:03.116 --> 0:11:05.796 return on investment, Like I communicated with a human that 0:11:05.796 --> 0:11:07.996 I would not have been able to communicate with had 0:11:08.036 --> 0:11:10.396 it not been for the skill building. And so sometimes 0:11:10.396 --> 0:11:14.516 it takes situations like that to allow yourself to engage 0:11:14.516 --> 0:11:16.196 with the thing you're not very good at before you 0:11:16.236 --> 0:11:17.076 achieve mastery. 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:19.636 I literally could have written about you in chapter one 0:11:19.676 --> 0:11:23.316 of the book. You're embodying the very principle I was 0:11:23.316 --> 0:11:26.276 trying to unpack. And I feel like so much of 0:11:26.396 --> 0:11:29.676 learning requires us to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations, because 0:11:29.716 --> 0:11:33.316 that's where the challenge lies. Yes, but the fear of embarrassment, 0:11:33.556 --> 0:11:38.116 of feeling incompetent, of looking stupid holds us back, and 0:11:38.156 --> 0:11:41.276 so we end up making these tiny little adjustments instead 0:11:41.316 --> 0:11:41.996 of big leaps. 0:11:42.276 --> 0:11:45.356 Yeah, And I mean discomfort carries the illusion that we're 0:11:45.356 --> 0:11:49.876 not making progress, right, And I mean, from a neuroscientific perspective, 0:11:50.116 --> 0:11:53.596 the best way to boost brain plasticity is to fail 0:11:53.636 --> 0:11:57.476 at things, because when you fail, those errors signal to 0:11:57.476 --> 0:12:01.196 the brain that something's wrong. In turn, it triggers the 0:12:01.236 --> 0:12:05.036 release of this beautiful cocktail of neurochemicals that help reshape 0:12:05.036 --> 0:12:09.116 the brain. It's only when you tell your nervous system, hey, buddy, 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:12.076 the current setups not good enough that it starts making 0:12:12.116 --> 0:12:14.636 the relevant changes, right, And so maybe we can channel 0:12:14.676 --> 0:12:16.276 some of that when we get frustrated. 0:12:16.716 --> 0:12:19.116 Exactly. Yeah, that's a great way to describe it. 0:12:20.956 --> 0:12:24.276 Okay, let's now shift to the ingredients to the toolkit 0:12:24.396 --> 0:12:28.076 for unlocking our potential. You talk about the importance of 0:12:28.316 --> 0:12:32.196 character or what's otherwise known as soft skills, and can 0:12:32.236 --> 0:12:35.396 you please first share the origin story of the term 0:12:35.756 --> 0:12:37.836 soft skills because I absolutely loved it, and I feel 0:12:37.836 --> 0:12:39.516 like soft skills has gotten such a bad rep for 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:41.956 so long, and I feel like you're redeeming it. So 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:44.956 on behalf of all people who enjoy soft skills and 0:12:45.036 --> 0:12:46.756 enjoy cultivating them. Thank you, sir. 0:12:47.636 --> 0:12:50.996 Yes, anytime I think of character skills as learn capacity 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:52.676 is to put your principles into practice. 0:12:53.236 --> 0:12:53.436 You know. 0:12:53.796 --> 0:12:55.396 At some point I got curious about where the term 0:12:55.436 --> 0:12:58.996 came from, like, why do we call these vital behavioral skills? 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:02.516 Why do we call them soft? That sounds weak. Well, 0:13:02.556 --> 0:13:05.636 if you trace the history, it turns out that the 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:08.996 term originated from the US Army when they were trying 0:13:09.036 --> 0:13:13.716 to classify different skills for soldiers and basically measure competencies 0:13:13.756 --> 0:13:17.396 to go and defend national security. And they had a 0:13:17.476 --> 0:13:20.676 list of hard skills, which were literally the capabilities to 0:13:20.676 --> 0:13:23.716 work with machines. Machines were made out of metal that's hard, 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:26.476 and so operating a tank or a gun was considered 0:13:26.476 --> 0:13:31.116 a hard skill, and so then everything else leadership collaboration 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:34.996 was lumped in this soft skills bucket, which they didn't 0:13:34.996 --> 0:13:38.716 think was unimportant. They just meant you're not using a 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:43.836 piece of almost unbreakable equipment. Yeah, exactly. So I think 0:13:43.956 --> 0:13:47.716 obviously that did a great disservice to this category of skills. 0:13:47.716 --> 0:13:51.076 And I actually really wonder if we had called those 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:54.276 behavioral skills, if they had been called leadership skills, would 0:13:54.316 --> 0:13:58.356 they be branded differently today. The study that really blew 0:13:58.436 --> 0:14:01.556 my mind was a study that roz Chetti led where 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:04.076 he found that we could predict your income in your twenties, 0:14:04.276 --> 0:14:06.916 how much money you make from the number of years 0:14:06.916 --> 0:14:09.076 of experience your kindergarten teacher had. 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:11.796 Wow, unreal. 0:14:12.196 --> 0:14:14.556 I could not believe this when I read this research. 0:14:14.676 --> 0:14:17.356 And by the way, listeners, Rod Shetty is like a 0:14:17.436 --> 0:14:20.436 natural experiment genius, so he has controlled for all of 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:24.236 the relevant variables, I assure you. Anyway, continue, Yeah. 0:14:23.996 --> 0:14:28.436 He's a world class economist and the finding is very robust. 0:14:28.756 --> 0:14:31.956 And the big question is, well, what are these experienced 0:14:31.996 --> 0:14:35.476 kindergarten teachers doing that sets kids up on a different trajectory. 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:39.636 And my assumption was cognitive skills, like they're giving you 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:41.716 an edge and reading and math, and then you get 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:43.756 to carry that with you. It is true that the 0:14:43.796 --> 0:14:47.476 more experienced teachers are better at teaching math and reading, 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:50.356 but that advantage dissipates over the next few years and 0:14:50.716 --> 0:14:54.276 other kids catch up. Where kids get a lasting advantage 0:14:54.316 --> 0:14:57.636 from an experienced kindergarten teacher is in character skills. In 0:14:57.796 --> 0:15:00.396 fourth and eighth grade, the kids who happen to have 0:15:00.436 --> 0:15:04.316 a more experienced kindergarten teacher randomly assigned ended up getting 0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:10.716 rated higher by their later teachers in being proactive, pro social, disciplined, 0:15:10.916 --> 0:15:15.356 and determent, and those skills are almost two and a 0:15:15.396 --> 0:15:20.076 half times more important for predicting future success than cognitive skills. 0:15:20.876 --> 0:15:23.316 I'm wondering if we can explore some of the mechanisms 0:15:23.356 --> 0:15:26.796 by which character skills lead to better outcomes. So, as 0:15:26.796 --> 0:15:29.076 I'm thinking about it now, it seems like, okay, determination 0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:31.796 kind of a clear one. It means you're practicing maybe 0:15:31.796 --> 0:15:36.236 more deliberately, you're practicing harder, etc. It's also possible that 0:15:36.756 --> 0:15:39.996 when you build character skills, you're more likable, and so 0:15:40.036 --> 0:15:44.236 you're more likely to draw in mentors and peers and 0:15:44.836 --> 0:15:47.796 teachers and to attract the attention of employers, And so 0:15:47.796 --> 0:15:51.316 there might be this virtuous cycle where character certainly is 0:15:51.316 --> 0:15:54.756 making you better at honing the craft, but having character 0:15:54.836 --> 0:15:58.436 skills makes other people in your orbit more likely to 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:00.356 want to work with you and help make you better. 0:16:01.316 --> 0:16:03.716 I think that's right. I do wonder how much of 0:16:04.076 --> 0:16:08.996 growth is about character skills elevating your individual learning versus 0:16:09.116 --> 0:16:12.996 attracting people into your orbit who build the scaffolding to 0:16:13.076 --> 0:16:13.796 help you climb. 0:16:14.836 --> 0:16:17.156 So, speaking of character skills, I mean, you're just one 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:19.116 of my favorite people to intellectually spar with. But we 0:16:19.116 --> 0:16:21.556 were chatting last week about the degree to which we 0:16:21.596 --> 0:16:25.716 think character skills are valuable. I tend to lean more 0:16:25.916 --> 0:16:28.996 nature versus nurture in that debate, and so, yeah, I 0:16:28.996 --> 0:16:32.676 guess my question here is do we have encouraging evidence 0:16:32.676 --> 0:16:36.076 that adults can improve their character skills in a persistent 0:16:36.556 --> 0:16:39.556 and meaningful way. And, by the way, I would love 0:16:39.596 --> 0:16:41.356 for you to be right here. I want to be 0:16:41.476 --> 0:16:43.716 wrong because I really do want these skills to be 0:16:43.876 --> 0:16:47.636 valuable and mutable, and so I have no pride around 0:16:47.676 --> 0:16:48.796 my current point of view. 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:52.276 Well, there's no one easier to persuade than somebody who's 0:16:52.316 --> 0:16:54.196 already invested in believing. 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:55.236 The case hereabouts exactly. 0:16:56.156 --> 0:16:58.276 Well, no, honestly, I'm not here to make an argument. 0:16:58.756 --> 0:17:00.596 I don't want to persuade you. What I want to 0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:02.916 do is share with you some of the evidence that's 0:17:02.956 --> 0:17:05.276 really shaped my thinking on this and see if you 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:08.036 find it compelling. So let's start with the evidence in 0:17:08.076 --> 0:17:12.916 the book. I was quite taken with the experiment that 0:17:12.996 --> 0:17:17.156 Francisco Campus and colleagues did on entrepreneurs in West Africa. 0:17:17.716 --> 0:17:20.636 So you take in this experiment, you take fifteen hundred 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:25.116 small business owners, You randomly assign them to a control group, 0:17:25.156 --> 0:17:28.436 a cognitive skills training group or a character skills training group, 0:17:29.196 --> 0:17:33.316 and the character skills training group sees their businesses grow 0:17:33.916 --> 0:17:36.236 almost three times as much over the next two years 0:17:36.476 --> 0:17:39.756 as the cognitive skills training group. Now, these founders are 0:17:39.796 --> 0:17:42.836 mostly in their forties and fifties, so it's quite late 0:17:42.876 --> 0:17:44.076 to be learning character skills. 0:17:44.156 --> 0:17:48.756 Yeah, you're not in any kind of critical period, you know. Yeah, exactly. 0:17:49.276 --> 0:17:51.916 And the training program is not rocket science. It's a 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:57.356 week of practicing being proactive and disciplined and determined, and 0:17:57.396 --> 0:17:59.796 then thinking about how those skills apply to your business. 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:03.196 The fact that randomly assigning people to just practice honing 0:18:03.236 --> 0:18:06.796 those skills for a week at midlife, mid career, then 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:10.436 you know, dramatically increases their revenue you looking at both 0:18:10.436 --> 0:18:14.476 sales and profits. That to me is pretty persuasive. So 0:18:14.756 --> 0:18:16.916 tell me why that didn't persuade you or why it 0:18:16.956 --> 0:18:17.556 wasn't enough. 0:18:17.916 --> 0:18:20.716 Yeah, okay, So let me tell you what I think 0:18:21.236 --> 0:18:24.356 would persuade me. Just conceptually and embarras me, I'm thinking 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:27.116 about this out loud. What I hear in the study 0:18:27.156 --> 0:18:30.356 you mentioned from Africa might be explained by the following. 0:18:30.916 --> 0:18:34.556 There are capacities that lay dormant in many of us, 0:18:34.956 --> 0:18:37.836 and we simply don't know that they're useful to recruit 0:18:38.036 --> 0:18:40.516 in any given setting. And so what you've done in 0:18:40.516 --> 0:18:43.796 this intervention is you've simply made salient to these entrepreneurs 0:18:44.156 --> 0:18:48.676 that things like proactivity and determination, whatever the other soft 0:18:48.676 --> 0:18:51.076 skills are are going to be helpful to them in 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:55.116 their business pursuits. So it's less about them growing and 0:18:55.156 --> 0:18:58.076 seeing improvement in their character skills as much as knowing 0:18:58.116 --> 0:19:02.836 to access them in the first place. Fascinating, fascinating, and 0:19:02.956 --> 0:19:05.196 because it's week long, I'm kind of like that could 0:19:05.196 --> 0:19:08.356 be an alternative explanation, and that's still valuable right to 0:19:08.396 --> 0:19:11.196 alert people in certain disciplines that that matters. 0:19:12.436 --> 0:19:15.756 Yeah, okay, that's very interesting. Yeah, I find that totally plausible. 0:19:16.916 --> 0:19:19.476 I would still say that, you know, what's happening is 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:23.156 they're activating a set of dormant capacities and turning them 0:19:23.156 --> 0:19:26.916 into useful skills, and so in that sense, they're still learning. 0:19:27.076 --> 0:19:30.156 I agree with that. But if say these things exist 0:19:30.236 --> 0:19:32.676 in their dormant and you unlock them over the course 0:19:32.716 --> 0:19:34.836 of a week, you might go from like zero to 0:19:34.876 --> 0:19:37.076 four in terms of like how much you know. And 0:19:37.116 --> 0:19:40.196 what I'm arguing is, in the absence of a longitudinal 0:19:40.236 --> 0:19:42.916 study that shows that a person can go on the 0:19:42.956 --> 0:19:46.596 Proactivity scale, for example, go from zero to seventy five, 0:19:47.356 --> 0:19:50.436 I'm not certain about how much room for growth there 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:55.036 is within that particular character trait, and so I'm unclear 0:19:55.076 --> 0:19:57.516 as to how again malleable it is. So we know 0:19:57.676 --> 0:19:59.636 they can unlock it in the first place, we know 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:01.716 they can maybe inch a little forward over the course 0:20:01.716 --> 0:20:04.476 of the week, But how possible is it for two 0:20:04.556 --> 0:20:07.276 people pull out of a random sample to both get 0:20:07.276 --> 0:20:09.036 to seventy five with the right tools. 0:20:09.876 --> 0:20:12.156 Yeah, that's a very good question. I think it's an 0:20:12.156 --> 0:20:15.236 empirical question that I have not seen a good answer to. 0:20:16.596 --> 0:20:20.556 After the break the case for imperfectionism from a fellow 0:20:20.636 --> 0:20:24.796 recovering perfectionist, and we'll hear about a technique to unlock 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:29.196 our hidden potential. It comes from a sea creature that's 0:20:29.276 --> 0:20:48.676 up next. On a slight change of plans, I want 0:20:48.676 --> 0:20:51.516 to start with your suggestion that we try and be 0:20:52.316 --> 0:20:56.676 more like a sponge, and like a literal, living sea sponge. 0:20:56.676 --> 0:20:59.316 We're not talking about like a kitchen dish sponge situation. 0:20:59.756 --> 0:21:01.476 So can you tell me a little bit more about 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:03.756 this metaphor, and then I will tell you why I'm 0:21:03.796 --> 0:21:04.436 obsessed with it. 0:21:05.556 --> 0:21:07.796 So when I was interested in proactivity, I was interested 0:21:07.796 --> 0:21:10.956 in being proactive to absorb information that helps you grow. 0:21:11.316 --> 0:21:12.836 And we've known for a long time that this is 0:21:12.876 --> 0:21:16.596 an important driver of reaching potential. I was looking for 0:21:16.676 --> 0:21:19.556 insight about that, and people kept saying as I talked 0:21:19.596 --> 0:21:22.476 to people who had achieved extraordinary growth or coach others 0:21:22.476 --> 0:21:24.756 to do the same, they kept saying I was like 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:28.436 a sponge, she was a sponge. He was a human sponge. 0:21:28.796 --> 0:21:30.516 And eventually it hit me that this might be more 0:21:30.556 --> 0:21:33.996 than a metaphor. So I started reading about sea sponges 0:21:34.156 --> 0:21:37.116