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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hay Slight Changers, It's Maya. Before we get to

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Speaker 1: this week's episode, I wanted to let you know that

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Speaker 1: I'm launching a newsletter. It's a place where I can

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Speaker 1: update you about the podcast, my life, and other exciting news.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like to sign up, you can visit the

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Speaker 1: link in our show description or go to Maya Shunker

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Speaker 1: dot com. That's m A y A s h A

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Speaker 1: n k a r dot com.

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Speaker 2: Thanks.

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Speaker 3: So much of learning requires us to put ourselves in

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Speaker 3: uncomfortable situations because that's where the challenge lies. But the

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Speaker 3: fear of embarrassment holds us back, and so we end

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Speaker 3: up making these tiny little adjustments instead of big leaps.

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Speaker 1: Author and podcaster at A Grant is back on a

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans, and he's got a new book

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Speaker 1: full of ideas for how we can unlock our hidden potential.

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Speaker 1: One of his tips is to think differently about how

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Speaker 1: we learn from others.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people think being a sponge is about

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Speaker 3: just absorbing as much information as you can seek infinite

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Speaker 3: amounts of feedback. Engage all of your critics, not so much.

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Speaker 3: Not all critics are thinking critically, and I think a

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Speaker 3: huge part of being an effective sponge is being proactive,

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Speaker 3: not just about what you take in, but also what

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Speaker 3: you expel out.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, how to Unlock Your Hidden Potential, I'm

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Speaker 1: maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become

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Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Adam is an

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Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and a professor at the Wharton School at

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Speaker 1: the University of Pennsylvania. He's also the author of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of bestsellers and a repeat visitor to the Ted stage.

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure after one more Ted talk he can

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Speaker 1: turn in his punch card for free sandwich. Adam's new

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Speaker 1: book is called Hidden Potential, The Science of Achieving Greater Things,

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Speaker 1: and as you'll hear, this is one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: topics to discuss and spar with him about. I started

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Speaker 1: our conversation by asking Adam why he's so interested in

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Speaker 1: the topic of hidden potential.

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Speaker 3: I think there are so many reasons to be interested

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Speaker 3: in it. I mean, how many times have you met

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Speaker 3: somebody who didn't live up to the potential you saw

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Speaker 3: in them because they didn't see it in themselves, or

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Speaker 3: because they weren't lucky enough to have a coach or

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Speaker 3: a mentor, or a teacher or a parent who saw

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Speaker 3: it in them. And I think the fundamental mistake we

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Speaker 3: make can we make this mistake when we're judging other

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Speaker 3: people and when we're evaluating ourselves, is that we assess

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Speaker 3: potential by where we start, and if something's easy for us,

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Speaker 3: if we have a natural talent for it, then we

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Speaker 3: assume there's a very highest ceiling on our potential. And

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Speaker 3: if we struggle early or if we fail, we think

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Speaker 3: this is not for me. And what we overlook is

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Speaker 3: that growth is not determined by where you start. It's

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Speaker 3: about the distance you can travel. But we can't see

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Speaker 3: that distance yet, right. We don't have a crystal law

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Speaker 3: to look into the future, and so we end up

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Speaker 3: missing out on a great deal of possibility that I

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Speaker 3: think goes unrecognized.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and one thing I loved reading about in your book,

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Speaker 1: as you say, the things that you're most proud of

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Speaker 1: aren't the domains where you've gotten to the highest heights.

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Speaker 1: It's actually where you started off at the lowest point

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Speaker 1: but made a ton of progress along the way. So

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Speaker 1: can you share a little bit more about that.

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Speaker 3: I really loved sports growing up, and after failing to

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Speaker 3: make the middle school basketball team and the high school

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Speaker 3: soccer team, I turned my attention to springboard diving, which

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Speaker 3: I had sort of caught the bug for late as

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Speaker 3: a teenager. And it was abundantly clear that I did

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Speaker 3: not have the physical talent to be a great diver.

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Speaker 3: My teammates called me Frankenstein because I didn't bend my

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Speaker 3: knees when I walked, which was ironic because in order

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Speaker 3: to touch my toes I had to bend my knees.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't flexible, I didn't have the grace or explosive power,

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Speaker 3: and I was also afraid of heights, so not exactly

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Speaker 3: set up for success. And I had an extraordinary coach,

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Speaker 3: Eric Best, who said on day one of practice, I

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Speaker 3: will never cut anyone who wants to be here, and

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Speaker 3: if you know, if you focus your energy on this,

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Speaker 3: I believe you can be a state finalist by the

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Speaker 3: time you're a senior in high school. And thanks to

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Speaker 3: Eric's coaching, I made the state finals as a junior

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Speaker 3: in high school, and I got nowhere near the Olympics.

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Speaker 3: Let's be clear, I could not have qualified for Olympic

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Speaker 3: trials if my life depended on it. But I got

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Speaker 3: a lot better than I ever expected. I ended up

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Speaker 3: qualified for the Junior Olympic Nationals twice, and I made

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Speaker 3: the All American list and ended up getting recruited a

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Speaker 3: diving college. And it was such a pivotal experience for

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Speaker 3: me to realize just because I start with a lack

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Speaker 3: of talent doesn't mean I can't overcome many of the

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Speaker 3: obstacles on my path.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I resonate with your story. I truly think

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Speaker 1: there's nothing that I enjoy more in life than witnessing progress.

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Speaker 1: Well maybe a really good Indian meal cooked by my mother,

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Speaker 1: but second to that, I love witnessing progress. And so

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Speaker 1: I think my version of Adam as the diver is

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Speaker 1: I began learning Mandarin about six years ago or so

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Speaker 1: because my husband's Chinese and none of his relatives speak English,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought, oh, this would be a really

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Speaker 1: nice way to connect with his family and you know,

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Speaker 1: try to show them that I, you know, really love

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Speaker 1: Jimmy and I really you know want to fit into

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Speaker 1: the family. And talk about a low starting point, Adam,

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Speaker 1: I took the cake there, I promise, But the joy

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Speaker 1: of improving at a language that I found so challenging

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Speaker 1: has been intoxicating, like truly. So I remember there was

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Speaker 1: this one day where I got into a lift and

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Speaker 1: it was clear that driver was a little bit uneasy

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Speaker 1: because he didn't speak English. And then I looked at

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Speaker 1: his phone and I saw Chinese characters, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is my moment, and so I filt of all

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Speaker 1: this courage and I spoke to him in broken Mandarin

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Speaker 1: and he understood what I was saying. And after I

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Speaker 1: got out of that lift, I called Jimmy and I

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Speaker 1: was squealing. It was literally like the best day of

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Speaker 1: my year. And so yeah, and that starting point again

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Speaker 1: was so low that when you witness the potential that

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Speaker 1: you had in a space where you really underestimated yourself,

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Speaker 1: it's just so satisfying.

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Speaker 3: That's amazing. I had no idea that you learned Mandarin.

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Speaker 3: Where have you been hiding this secret?

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Speaker 1: Well, learning I inng It is a works in progress.

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Speaker 1: So this is what's really interesting because this, I think

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Speaker 1: hits on another theme in your book, which is my

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Speaker 1: decision to pick up a new language of all things

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Speaker 1: in adulthood was never something that I thought would happen.

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Speaker 1: And that's because I historically just sucked at learning foreign languages.

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Speaker 1: So in high school I took Spanish. In college I

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Speaker 1: took Hi the terrible at both of them, and so

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Speaker 1: I was pretty hesitant to give a foreign language a go,

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Speaker 1: especially in my thirties.

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Speaker 3: This is so fascinating. Okay, I have a bunch of reactions.

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Speaker 3: So first of all, can we just pause to mark

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Speaker 3: the moment when the world learned that there was something

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Speaker 3: that Maya Shankar was not good at?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Adam, that's.

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Speaker 3: Because I mean, I think everyone admires what a natural

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Speaker 3: you are at so many things you know, from your

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Speaker 3: music virtuoso childhood to your mastery of cognitive science to

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Speaker 3: your ability to have a conversation with anyone about anything

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Speaker 3: and make their complex ideas understandable. I think it's reassuring

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Speaker 3: to the rest of us that there are things that

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Speaker 3: you two struggle with. Would be my first reaction. Secondly,

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking about I guess the common arc of saying, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm not a foreign language person, I lack this skill,

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Speaker 3: and then realizing that it was actually not skill that

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Speaker 3: you lacked entirely. It sounds to me like you had

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Speaker 3: a different kind of motivation.

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Speaker 1: In your thirties, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: You were one excited intrinsically to learn, which maybe you

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Speaker 3: were less so in high school. And two you also

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Speaker 3: had a really strong pro social purpose here, which is

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Speaker 3: you're trying to connect with Jimmy's family, and I think

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Speaker 3: that probably made the language learning a lot more meaningful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the root of your motivation matters so much when

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Speaker 1: it comes to learning. So when I was in high school,

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Speaker 1: it was like, Okay, just got to get through that

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Speaker 1: language requirement, try to get the A because I want

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Speaker 1: to get into a good college, like blah blah blah. Right,

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Speaker 1: And then similarly in college, I think Hindy was just

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Speaker 1: a way of checking the box on the foreign language requirement.

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Speaker 1: And what happened with Mandarin, like you said, is it

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Speaker 1: took on this hugely emotional quality to it, right, which

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Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting. And on top of feeling like I

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Speaker 1: was going to be able to connect with Jimmy's relatives,

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Speaker 1: what I didn't realize is that so much of culture

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Speaker 1: is baked into language, and so when I was learning it,

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Speaker 1: I was learning about this fundamental humility that exists within

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Speaker 1: Chinese culture, and like how much I love that? And

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Speaker 1: so it's really it's been so charming to learn about

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Speaker 1: those elements, and I would have ignored them entirely in

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Speaker 1: the context of like a high school class right where

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand how it's going to play out.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and I wonder, okay. So the other thing is

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Speaker 3: you talk about using it in the cab. So one

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Speaker 3: of the things I learned while researching basically, how do

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Speaker 3: you become better at getting better? So what's the science

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Speaker 3: of improving at improving? One of the things that holds

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Speaker 3: a lot of us back is we're reluctant to put

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Speaker 3: ourselves in uncomfortable situations. And nowhere is this more clear

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Speaker 3: than learning a foreign language. If you look at why

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Speaker 3: so many people struggle in high school to learn a language,

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Speaker 3: it's not necessarily that they lack the language gene or

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Speaker 3: they missed the critical period, and if only they had

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Speaker 3: learned it younger, they had an aptitude that's gone. It's

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Speaker 3: that they're afraid to use it because you don't want

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Speaker 3: to sound like an idiot. Absolutely, we don't want to

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Speaker 3: embarrass ourselves, and that's totally reasonable. But the only way

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Speaker 3: to learn to speak a language is to talk it

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Speaker 3: out loud and to use it as you're acquiring it,

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Speaker 3: whereas most people expect that they can master it, that

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Speaker 3: they can commit the entire vocabulary and grammar to memory,

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Speaker 3: and only then are they ready to speak it. I

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Speaker 3: wonder if you were that person earlier.

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Speaker 1: I was so anxious about speaking in a foreign language,

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Speaker 1: especially Chinese, where you might say a tone with a

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Speaker 1: slightly different inflection, and you've now set a completely different sentence,

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Speaker 1: because it's like ma versus ma, right, those mean totally

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Speaker 1: different things. And yet I think what happened in the

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Speaker 1: car that day and where I found the courage was

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Speaker 1: he doesn't speak English. He's clearly feeling anxious. I'm clearly

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Speaker 1: feeling anxious that I can't communicate with him, and so

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Speaker 1: that I like dig within myself. I have to like

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Speaker 1: excavate courage, like it's so deep inside of my body,

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Speaker 1: and I pull it out and I communicate with him.

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Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, Wow, talk about a emotional

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Speaker 1: return on investment, Like I communicated with a human that

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Speaker 1: I would not have been able to communicate with had

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Speaker 1: it not been for the skill building. And so sometimes

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Speaker 1: it takes situations like that to allow yourself to engage

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Speaker 1: with the thing you're not very good at before you

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Speaker 1: achieve mastery.

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Speaker 3: I literally could have written about you in chapter one

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Speaker 3: of the book. You're embodying the very principle I was

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Speaker 3: trying to unpack. And I feel like so much of

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Speaker 3: learning requires us to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations, because

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Speaker 3: that's where the challenge lies. Yes, but the fear of embarrassment,

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Speaker 3: of feeling incompetent, of looking stupid holds us back, and

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Speaker 3: so we end up making these tiny little adjustments instead

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Speaker 3: of big leaps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean discomfort carries the illusion that we're

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Speaker 1: not making progress, right, And I mean, from a neuroscientific perspective,

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Speaker 1: the best way to boost brain plasticity is to fail

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Speaker 1: at things, because when you fail, those errors signal to

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Speaker 1: the brain that something's wrong. In turn, it triggers the

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Speaker 1: release of this beautiful cocktail of neurochemicals that help reshape

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Speaker 1: the brain. It's only when you tell your nervous system, hey, buddy,

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Speaker 1: the current setups not good enough that it starts making

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Speaker 1: the relevant changes, right, And so maybe we can channel

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Speaker 1: some of that when we get frustrated.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah, that's a great way to describe it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's now shift to the ingredients to the toolkit

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Speaker 1: for unlocking our potential. You talk about the importance of

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Speaker 1: character or what's otherwise known as soft skills, and can

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Speaker 1: you please first share the origin story of the term

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Speaker 1: soft skills because I absolutely loved it, and I feel

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Speaker 1: like soft skills has gotten such a bad rep for

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Speaker 1: so long, and I feel like you're redeeming it. So

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Speaker 1: on behalf of all people who enjoy soft skills and

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Speaker 1: enjoy cultivating them. Thank you, sir.

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Speaker 3: Yes, anytime I think of character skills as learn capacity

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Speaker 3: is to put your principles into practice.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: At some point I got curious about where the term

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Speaker 3: came from, like, why do we call these vital behavioral skills?

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Speaker 3: Why do we call them soft? That sounds weak. Well,

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Speaker 3: if you trace the history, it turns out that the

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Speaker 3: term originated from the US Army when they were trying

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Speaker 3: to classify different skills for soldiers and basically measure competencies

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Speaker 3: to go and defend national security. And they had a

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Speaker 3: list of hard skills, which were literally the capabilities to

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Speaker 3: work with machines. Machines were made out of metal that's hard,

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Speaker 3: and so operating a tank or a gun was considered

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Speaker 3: a hard skill, and so then everything else leadership collaboration

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Speaker 3: was lumped in this soft skills bucket, which they didn't

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Speaker 3: think was unimportant. They just meant you're not using a

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Speaker 3: piece of almost unbreakable equipment. Yeah, exactly. So I think

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Speaker 3: obviously that did a great disservice to this category of skills.

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Speaker 3: And I actually really wonder if we had called those

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Speaker 3: behavioral skills, if they had been called leadership skills, would

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Speaker 3: they be branded differently today. The study that really blew

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Speaker 3: my mind was a study that roz Chetti led where

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Speaker 3: he found that we could predict your income in your twenties,

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Speaker 3: how much money you make from the number of years

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Speaker 3: of experience your kindergarten teacher had.

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Speaker 1: Wow, unreal.

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Speaker 3: I could not believe this when I read this research.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, listeners, Rod Shetty is like a

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Speaker 1: natural experiment genius, so he has controlled for all of

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Speaker 1: the relevant variables, I assure you. Anyway, continue, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: He's a world class economist and the finding is very robust.

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Speaker 3: And the big question is, well, what are these experienced

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Speaker 3: kindergarten teachers doing that sets kids up on a different trajectory.

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Speaker 3: And my assumption was cognitive skills, like they're giving you

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Speaker 3: an edge and reading and math, and then you get

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Speaker 3: to carry that with you. It is true that the

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Speaker 3: more experienced teachers are better at teaching math and reading,

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Speaker 3: but that advantage dissipates over the next few years and

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Speaker 3: other kids catch up. Where kids get a lasting advantage

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Speaker 3: from an experienced kindergarten teacher is in character skills. In

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Speaker 3: fourth and eighth grade, the kids who happen to have

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Speaker 3: a more experienced kindergarten teacher randomly assigned ended up getting

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Speaker 3: rated higher by their later teachers in being proactive, pro social, disciplined,

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Speaker 3: and determent, and those skills are almost two and a

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Speaker 3: half times more important for predicting future success than cognitive skills.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering if we can explore some of the mechanisms

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Speaker 1: by which character skills lead to better outcomes. So, as

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it now, it seems like, okay, determination

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Speaker 1: kind of a clear one. It means you're practicing maybe

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Speaker 1: more deliberately, you're practicing harder, etc. It's also possible that

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Speaker 1: when you build character skills, you're more likable, and so

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Speaker 1: you're more likely to draw in mentors and peers and

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Speaker 1: teachers and to attract the attention of employers, And so

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Speaker 1: there might be this virtuous cycle where character certainly is

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Speaker 1: making you better at honing the craft, but having character

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Speaker 1: skills makes other people in your orbit more likely to

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Speaker 1: want to work with you and help make you better.

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Speaker 3: I think that's right. I do wonder how much of

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Speaker 3: growth is about character skills elevating your individual learning versus

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Speaker 3: attracting people into your orbit who build the scaffolding to

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Speaker 3: help you climb.

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Speaker 1: So, speaking of character skills, I mean, you're just one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite people to intellectually spar with. But we

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Speaker 1: were chatting last week about the degree to which we

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Speaker 1: think character skills are valuable. I tend to lean more

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Speaker 1: nature versus nurture in that debate, and so, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: guess my question here is do we have encouraging evidence

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Speaker 1: that adults can improve their character skills in a persistent

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Speaker 1: and meaningful way. And, by the way, I would love

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Speaker 1: for you to be right here. I want to be

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Speaker 1: wrong because I really do want these skills to be

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Speaker 1: valuable and mutable, and so I have no pride around

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Speaker 1: my current point of view.

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Speaker 3: Well, there's no one easier to persuade than somebody who's

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Speaker 3: already invested in believing.

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Speaker 1: The case hereabouts exactly.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, honestly, I'm not here to make an argument.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to persuade you. What I want to

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Speaker 3: do is share with you some of the evidence that's

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Speaker 3: really shaped my thinking on this and see if you

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Speaker 3: find it compelling. So let's start with the evidence in

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Speaker 3: the book. I was quite taken with the experiment that

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Speaker 3: Francisco Campus and colleagues did on entrepreneurs in West Africa.

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Speaker 3: So you take in this experiment, you take fifteen hundred

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Speaker 3: small business owners, You randomly assign them to a control group,

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Speaker 3: a cognitive skills training group or a character skills training group,

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Speaker 3: and the character skills training group sees their businesses grow

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Speaker 3: almost three times as much over the next two years

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Speaker 3: as the cognitive skills training group. Now, these founders are

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Speaker 3: mostly in their forties and fifties, so it's quite late

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Speaker 3: to be learning character skills.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not in any kind of critical period, you know. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And the training program is not rocket science. It's a

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Speaker 3: week of practicing being proactive and disciplined and determined, and

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Speaker 3: then thinking about how those skills apply to your business.

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Speaker 3: The fact that randomly assigning people to just practice honing

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Speaker 3: those skills for a week at midlife, mid career, then

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Speaker 3: you know, dramatically increases their revenue you looking at both

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Speaker 3: sales and profits. That to me is pretty persuasive. So

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Speaker 3: tell me why that didn't persuade you or why it

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Speaker 3: wasn't enough.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So let me tell you what I think

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Speaker 1: would persuade me. Just conceptually and embarras me, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about this out loud. What I hear in the study

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Speaker 1: you mentioned from Africa might be explained by the following.

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Speaker 1: There are capacities that lay dormant in many of us,

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Speaker 1: and we simply don't know that they're useful to recruit

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Speaker 1: in any given setting. And so what you've done in

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Speaker 1: this intervention is you've simply made salient to these entrepreneurs

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Speaker 1: that things like proactivity and determination, whatever the other soft

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Speaker 1: skills are are going to be helpful to them in

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Speaker 1: their business pursuits. So it's less about them growing and

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Speaker 1: seeing improvement in their character skills as much as knowing

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Speaker 1: to access them in the first place. Fascinating, fascinating, and

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Speaker 1: because it's week long, I'm kind of like that could

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Speaker 1: be an alternative explanation, and that's still valuable right to

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Speaker 1: alert people in certain disciplines that that matters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, that's very interesting. Yeah, I find that totally plausible.

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Speaker 3: I would still say that, you know, what's happening is

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Speaker 3: they're activating a set of dormant capacities and turning them

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Speaker 3: into useful skills, and so in that sense, they're still learning.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that. But if say these things exist

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Speaker 1: in their dormant and you unlock them over the course

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Speaker 1: of a week, you might go from like zero to

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Speaker 1: four in terms of like how much you know. And

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Speaker 1: what I'm arguing is, in the absence of a longitudinal

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Speaker 1: study that shows that a person can go on the

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Speaker 1: Proactivity scale, for example, go from zero to seventy five,

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Speaker 1: I'm not certain about how much room for growth there

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Speaker 1: is within that particular character trait, and so I'm unclear

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Speaker 1: as to how again malleable it is. So we know

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Speaker 1: they can unlock it in the first place, we know

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Speaker 1: they can maybe inch a little forward over the course

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Speaker 1: of the week, But how possible is it for two

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Speaker 1: people pull out of a random sample to both get

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Speaker 1: to seventy five with the right tools.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very good question. I think it's an

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Speaker 3: empirical question that I have not seen a good answer to.

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Speaker 1: After the break the case for imperfectionism from a fellow

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Speaker 1: recovering perfectionist, and we'll hear about a technique to unlock

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Speaker 1: our hidden potential. It comes from a sea creature that's

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Speaker 1: up next. On a slight change of plans, I want

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Speaker 1: to start with your suggestion that we try and be

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Speaker 1: more like a sponge, and like a literal, living sea sponge.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about like a kitchen dish sponge situation.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell me a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: this metaphor, and then I will tell you why I'm

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Speaker 1: obsessed with it.

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Speaker 3: So when I was interested in proactivity, I was interested

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Speaker 3: in being proactive to absorb information that helps you grow.

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Speaker 3: And we've known for a long time that this is

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Speaker 3: an important driver of reaching potential. I was looking for

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Speaker 3: insight about that, and people kept saying as I talked

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Speaker 3: to people who had achieved extraordinary growth or coach others

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Speaker 3: to do the same, they kept saying I was like

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Speaker 3: a sponge, she was a sponge. He was a human sponge.

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Speaker 3: And eventually it hit me that this might be more

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Speaker 3: than a metaphor. So I started reading about sea sponges

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Speaker 3: and I learned that the yeah, I mean, that's in

402
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Speaker 3: the job description. Obviously, any self respecting social scientists has

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Speaker 3: to take the sea sponge.

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Speaker 1: Yes, there's the sea sponge part of the textbook.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, du Never. I didn't know a thing about them.

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Speaker 3: I learned a lot, and one of the things that

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Speaker 3: I learned was that they're not just adept at taking

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Speaker 3: in nutrients, they also have finely tuned filters to expel

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Speaker 3: harmful particles. And I think why this resonated with me

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Speaker 3: is a lot of people think being a sponge is

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Speaker 3: about just absorbing as much information as you can seek

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Speaker 3: infinite amounts of feedback, engage all of your critics. Not

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Speaker 3: so much. Not all critics are thinking critically, not all

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Speaker 3: critics are speaking constructively, And I think a huge part

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Speaker 3: of being an effective sponge is being proactive, not just

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Speaker 3: about what you take in, but also what you expel out.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, I love this concept about filtration because

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Speaker 1: I think it's so crucial and it's interesting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you talk in the book about the perils of having

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Speaker 1: an ego based filtration system, So that's where you're pushing

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Speaker 1: out a lot of the bad stuff that you hear

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Speaker 1: and you're just kind of absorbing all the like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're great, and this speech is great, and there's no

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Speaker 1: room for improvement, right. I have the underfiltration problem that

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Speaker 1: you described, and it's been a journey over time. So

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Speaker 1: if I rewind the clock a bit, I mean, starting

427
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Speaker 1: from the time that I was a little kid playing

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Speaker 1: the violin, I was always someone who sought out an

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Speaker 1: enormous amount of feedback. But the problem that I have

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Speaker 1: is I've let too much feedback in and at times

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Speaker 1: assigned equal importance to all of it than would have

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Speaker 1: been helpful. And the way that I rationalize this, that

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Speaker 1: I've justified this is, Okay, I'm a person with a

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Speaker 1: lot of blind spots. There's a lot of people out

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Speaker 1: there who know a lot more than I do about

436
00:23:22,596 --> 00:23:24,796
Speaker 1: any given thing, and I want to improve as much

437
00:23:24,836 --> 00:23:26,876
Speaker 1: as possible, and I don't want to be prideful in

438
00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:30,076
Speaker 1: these pursuits. But it's taken me a lot of time

439
00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:36,036
Speaker 1: and a lot of confidence building to recognize what feedback

440
00:23:36,556 --> 00:23:39,716
Speaker 1: better serves the thing I'm working on and what doesn't.

441
00:23:40,276 --> 00:23:43,876
Speaker 1: And that's a really hard it's really hard to fine

442
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:46,516
Speaker 1: tune this filtration system.

443
00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:51,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not easy, and I think probably I would

444
00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:54,676
Speaker 3: guess that most people are on one extreme or another

445
00:23:54,716 --> 00:23:57,556
Speaker 3: on this. Either they pay attention to all the criticism

446
00:23:57,716 --> 00:23:59,916
Speaker 3: because they're so obsessed with learning and they think that's

447
00:23:59,956 --> 00:24:03,756
Speaker 3: part of having a growth mindset, or their egos are

448
00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:07,676
Speaker 3: fragile and being in secure means that nothing gets in. Yeah,

449
00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:11,196
Speaker 3: and they don't really learn from criticism, and I obviously

450
00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:14,436
Speaker 3: want to find the sweet spot there. So I think

451
00:24:14,636 --> 00:24:17,636
Speaker 3: for me, the key questions looking at the research on

452
00:24:17,876 --> 00:24:22,956
Speaker 3: what makes for useful input are one expertise is this

453
00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:27,196
Speaker 3: person credible in the domain? Two familiarity does this person

454
00:24:27,236 --> 00:24:30,876
Speaker 3: know you? And three care? Are they actually trying to

455
00:24:30,876 --> 00:24:31,636
Speaker 3: help you get better?

456
00:24:31,756 --> 00:24:32,036
Speaker 1: Yes?

457
00:24:32,516 --> 00:24:35,956
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it's very common to have a

458
00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:39,876
Speaker 3: critic who checks the first two boxes but not the third,

459
00:24:40,596 --> 00:24:43,836
Speaker 3: which means they don't necessarily have your best interest at heart.

460
00:24:43,956 --> 00:24:44,476
Speaker 1: Yeah.

461
00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:48,276
Speaker 3: I think a good coach is not just attacking your

462
00:24:48,276 --> 00:24:51,516
Speaker 3: worse self, but actually recognizing your hidden potential and trying

463
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:53,356
Speaker 3: to help you become a better version of yourself.

464
00:24:54,236 --> 00:24:56,356
Speaker 1: And I think to add to that, it's okay to

465
00:24:56,396 --> 00:24:59,116
Speaker 1: not assign equal weight to every piece of feedback given

466
00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:01,956
Speaker 1: to you by someone that you admire. So there's a

467
00:25:01,956 --> 00:25:06,116
Speaker 1: difference between admiring a person and then accepting all of

468
00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 1: their feedback, and we shouldn't confuse the two. And I

469
00:25:08,916 --> 00:25:11,756
Speaker 1: have a personal example with you on this topic, right,

470
00:25:11,796 --> 00:25:14,596
Speaker 1: So you generously gave me a bunch of feedback on

471
00:25:14,636 --> 00:25:19,036
Speaker 1: my TED talk. You really helped elevate it. But crucially

472
00:25:19,636 --> 00:25:22,916
Speaker 1: I didn't accept all your feedback. And I remember thinking,

473
00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:27,196
Speaker 1: wait a second, I'm rejecting Adam Grant's feedback. And this

474
00:25:27,276 --> 00:25:30,436
Speaker 1: man literally holds the world record for like the most

475
00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:33,476
Speaker 1: TED talks given by like any human. But then I

476
00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,556
Speaker 1: thought to myself, what would Adam tell me about whether

477
00:25:36,676 --> 00:25:38,796
Speaker 1: or not to reject this feedback? And I heard you

478
00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:41,596
Speaker 1: in my head. I heard you telling me on the phone, Leya,

479
00:25:41,756 --> 00:25:44,436
Speaker 1: I'm just one person. It's one person's feedback. Just reject

480
00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:46,676
Speaker 1: this feedback if this doesn't apply to you or feel

481
00:25:46,876 --> 00:25:49,276
Speaker 1: constant with you and your personality type and the kind

482
00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:51,956
Speaker 1: of TED talk you want to give who cares like.

483
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,436
Speaker 1: Don't accept feedback just because it's someone's feedback. Accept it

484
00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:58,636
Speaker 1: because it resonates with you. And that was growth for

485
00:25:58,756 --> 00:26:01,356
Speaker 1: me because I think back in the day right, Like

486
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:03,556
Speaker 1: ten years ago, I would have been like, accept it all,

487
00:26:03,876 --> 00:26:07,196
Speaker 1: no filtration process. But I appreciate you being that voice

488
00:26:07,196 --> 00:26:08,676
Speaker 1: in my head along the way.

489
00:26:09,596 --> 00:26:11,956
Speaker 3: Well, I'm sorry that I didn't say it more explicitly

490
00:26:12,036 --> 00:26:14,716
Speaker 3: right off the bat. If you get a comment just

491
00:26:14,756 --> 00:26:17,796
Speaker 3: from one person, that may just be their idiosyncratic taste

492
00:26:17,996 --> 00:26:20,516
Speaker 3: or their subjective reaction, and you don't have to pay

493
00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:22,476
Speaker 3: attention to it just because someone that you like or

494
00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:23,396
Speaker 3: respect said it.

495
00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:26,556
Speaker 1: No, exactly. And I think actually the root cause of this,

496
00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 1: and I'm just I'm going to be working on the

497
00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:29,876
Speaker 1: skill over the course of my whole life, is that

498
00:26:30,516 --> 00:26:34,396
Speaker 1: it is very very easy for me to see another

499
00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,116
Speaker 1: person's point of view. And I don't want to rid

500
00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 1: myself of this trait altogether, because I really do value

501
00:26:39,796 --> 00:26:41,516
Speaker 1: my open mind and I think it makes me a

502
00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:44,036
Speaker 1: better person overall. It's just that I see that there

503
00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:44,916
Speaker 1: are some downsides.

504
00:26:45,356 --> 00:26:47,436
Speaker 3: I agree, and I think this would be an example

505
00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,196
Speaker 3: of what psychologists would call a strength overused.

506
00:26:50,396 --> 00:26:51,276
Speaker 1: Oh that's really nice.

507
00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:54,356
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you don't want to eliminate the strength. You

508
00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 3: want to make sure you're not using it excessively or

509
00:26:57,116 --> 00:27:00,116
Speaker 3: misusing it by applying it in the wrong situations.

510
00:26:59,636 --> 00:27:03,876
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. But I also think from a developmental perspective,

511
00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:07,796
Speaker 1: is really natural and healthy when we're young to allow

512
00:27:07,836 --> 00:27:09,916
Speaker 1: in a bunch of feedback and to test out because

513
00:27:10,356 --> 00:27:13,396
Speaker 1: we're still figuring out who we are, like, what we

514
00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:16,596
Speaker 1: care about, what we value, what we prize when it

515
00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:19,116
Speaker 1: comes to giving a talk or writing a song or

516
00:27:19,116 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 1: whatever it is. And it is through the process of

517
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:25,756
Speaker 1: receiving feedback and seeing how we respond that we sometimes

518
00:27:25,796 --> 00:27:29,196
Speaker 1: even learn what our preferences are in the first place, right,

519
00:27:29,236 --> 00:27:31,396
Speaker 1: and what we care about. And what's so interesting in

520
00:27:31,396 --> 00:27:34,076
Speaker 1: my own evolution is that I assumed with age that

521
00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:37,516
Speaker 1: this would become easier, right, Filtering would become easier, and

522
00:27:37,556 --> 00:27:41,996
Speaker 1: it absolutely has overall. But I do feel like when

523
00:27:42,036 --> 00:27:46,236
Speaker 1: I enter a new domain, so podcasting for example, or

524
00:27:46,316 --> 00:27:49,076
Speaker 1: giving my first head talk, I go back into that

525
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:52,916
Speaker 1: developmental stage of mind where I open the floodgates and

526
00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:56,036
Speaker 1: I let all this feedback in and I again have

527
00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:59,796
Speaker 1: to fine tune those filtration skills to figure out, you know,

528
00:27:59,836 --> 00:28:02,356
Speaker 1: where I want to go. So it can be a process, right.

529
00:28:02,716 --> 00:28:04,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's better to err on the side

530
00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:07,916
Speaker 3: of being too open than too closed, because it's much

531
00:28:07,916 --> 00:28:10,556
Speaker 3: easier to turn on the filter than it is to

532
00:28:10,836 --> 00:28:14,596
Speaker 3: suddenly absorb information that you don't have access to anymore

533
00:28:14,596 --> 00:28:18,436
Speaker 3: because people have learned that you're not receptive to it.

534
00:28:18,716 --> 00:28:21,316
Speaker 3: And I love the research showing that we're better off

535
00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:22,676
Speaker 3: asking for advice than feedback.

536
00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:25,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell me more about that, because when I read

537
00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:26,956
Speaker 1: that in the book, I was like, aren't they kind

538
00:28:26,956 --> 00:28:27,556
Speaker 1: of the same thing.

539
00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:31,756
Speaker 3: So when you ask for feedback, the other person rewinds

540
00:28:31,756 --> 00:28:33,476
Speaker 3: to the past and tells you what you did wrong

541
00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:36,036
Speaker 3: or what you did right, and that can lead you

542
00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 3: to ruminate about all of your mistakes. Yeah, and then

543
00:28:39,396 --> 00:28:41,756
Speaker 3: it's really hard to carry that forward to what am

544
00:28:41,756 --> 00:28:44,316
Speaker 3: I going to do differently tomorrow. It can also if

545
00:28:44,356 --> 00:28:46,476
Speaker 3: it's positive feedback, it can lead you to say, all right,

546
00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:49,916
Speaker 3: I'm good, I don't need to change anything. And when

547
00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:53,316
Speaker 3: you ask for advice, people actually look ahead and they say, well,

548
00:28:53,316 --> 00:28:56,396
Speaker 3: here's the thing I might adjust next time, And then

549
00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:59,476
Speaker 3: you can immediately think about, Okay, next time I'm in

550
00:28:59,476 --> 00:29:02,676
Speaker 3: this situation, what do I want to try? And that's

551
00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:05,676
Speaker 3: less threatening. You're not defensive. You don't have to claim

552
00:29:05,716 --> 00:29:09,516
Speaker 3: that you actually were perfect last time. It's a little

553
00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:12,116
Speaker 3: bit more optimistic because you have an opportunity to improve it.

554
00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:15,236
Speaker 3: So I've actually stopped asking for feedback. I used to

555
00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:17,036
Speaker 3: do every talk, I would get off stage and say,

556
00:29:17,196 --> 00:29:19,636
Speaker 3: what feedback do you have? Now I say, what's the

557
00:29:19,676 --> 00:29:20,956
Speaker 3: one thing I can do better?

558
00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:22,116
Speaker 2: Yeah?

559
00:29:22,476 --> 00:29:25,116
Speaker 1: So, on the topic of coaches, how is it that

560
00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 1: we find good coaches and mentors? And there's a somewhat

561
00:29:28,516 --> 00:29:30,556
Speaker 1: counterintuitive finding in your book that I'd love you to

562
00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:34,036
Speaker 1: talk about when it comes to searching for these people. Yeah.

563
00:29:34,076 --> 00:29:35,956
Speaker 3: I think what most of us assume is that you

564
00:29:35,996 --> 00:29:39,156
Speaker 3: want to learn from the best, So find the most

565
00:29:39,196 --> 00:29:44,156
Speaker 3: accomplished musician, the greatest athlete, the genius scientist, whatever your

566
00:29:44,196 --> 00:29:47,076
Speaker 3: field is, you want to learn from the expert. The

567
00:29:47,116 --> 00:29:50,636
Speaker 3: empirical evidence does not support that as the best idea.

568
00:29:51,196 --> 00:29:54,076
Speaker 3: My favorite demonstration being that if you take an intro

569
00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:59,156
Speaker 3: class with an adjunct professor or a lecturer as opposed

570
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:02,356
Speaker 3: to somebody who's tenured or tenure track in that field,

571
00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:04,636
Speaker 3: you actually go on to get better grades in your

572
00:30:04,676 --> 00:30:07,756
Speaker 3: next class than that subject. In other words, the person

573
00:30:07,796 --> 00:30:11,556
Speaker 3: with less expertise is a better teacher. Why would that be?

574
00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:15,316
Speaker 3: I think there's evidence for a couple of mechanisms. One

575
00:30:15,356 --> 00:30:19,276
Speaker 3: is that sometimes experts are too far from where you

576
00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:22,396
Speaker 3: are to actually remember what it's like to be in

577
00:30:22,396 --> 00:30:26,876
Speaker 3: your shoes, so they can't teach the basics. Einstein was

578
00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:31,636
Speaker 3: an awful intro physics teacher. The second challenge is that

579
00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:35,276
Speaker 3: the process of gaining expertise can make people worse at

580
00:30:35,276 --> 00:30:38,316
Speaker 3: communicating what they know. So it's not just that they forgot,

581
00:30:38,356 --> 00:30:40,596
Speaker 3: it's that they've been doing a lot of it on autopilot,

582
00:30:40,636 --> 00:30:43,316
Speaker 3: and they tend to take much of the knowledge they

583
00:30:43,316 --> 00:30:46,196
Speaker 3: have for granted. I think oftentimes the best mentor is

584
00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:48,196
Speaker 3: somebody who's just a couple of steps ahead of you,

585
00:30:49,116 --> 00:30:51,996
Speaker 3: and maybe not somebody who was a natural, but somebody

586
00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:55,156
Speaker 3: who struggled because they actually had to study how to improve.

587
00:30:55,796 --> 00:30:59,156
Speaker 3: And I guess that has led me to say, instead

588
00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:03,236
Speaker 3: of those who can't do teach, we should say those

589
00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:05,396
Speaker 3: who can do often can't teach the basics.

590
00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:08,836
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I love this message. And then also

591
00:31:08,876 --> 00:31:11,516
Speaker 1: with that said, you know, I did have the amazing

592
00:31:11,516 --> 00:31:14,876
Speaker 1: fortune of studying with It's a Pearlman, who's yeah, widely

593
00:31:14,876 --> 00:31:18,196
Speaker 1: considered the greatest violinist in the world. And I will

594
00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:22,116
Speaker 1: say that Pearlman had a very unusual way of teaching

595
00:31:22,396 --> 00:31:24,876
Speaker 1: that led to really great outcomes, and this is what

596
00:31:24,916 --> 00:31:28,476
Speaker 1: he did. So I would be playing some passage and

597
00:31:28,596 --> 00:31:31,916
Speaker 1: rather than being prescriptive about what to do and like

598
00:31:31,956 --> 00:31:34,716
Speaker 1: how I could play it better, he would interrogate me

599
00:31:35,196 --> 00:31:38,236
Speaker 1: with a litany of questions around how it is that

600
00:31:38,476 --> 00:31:40,796
Speaker 1: I thought I could make the passage better. So it

601
00:31:40,836 --> 00:31:43,276
Speaker 1: was sort of like a maya, you're clearly unhappy with

602
00:31:43,316 --> 00:31:45,596
Speaker 1: the way that phrase is being shaped. What do you

603
00:31:45,596 --> 00:31:47,716
Speaker 1: think you can do about it? And at the time, Adam,

604
00:31:47,756 --> 00:31:51,356
Speaker 1: I remember being like, dude, you're the freakin' expert. Why

605
00:31:51,356 --> 00:31:54,436
Speaker 1: are you asking me? Right? My like thirteen year old

606
00:31:54,436 --> 00:31:57,156
Speaker 1: brain didn't really understand the power the gift that he

607
00:31:57,196 --> 00:31:59,316
Speaker 1: was giving me. But what he was training me to

608
00:31:59,396 --> 00:32:02,476
Speaker 1: do was to be a critical thinker. I don't want

609
00:32:02,516 --> 00:32:04,396
Speaker 1: to be a lobbyist for the world experts. They don't

610
00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:06,556
Speaker 1: actually need our help right now. They're doing just fine.

611
00:32:06,996 --> 00:32:09,756
Speaker 1: But I want to argue that there's the potential for

612
00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:10,876
Speaker 1: them to be great teachers too.

613
00:32:11,396 --> 00:32:14,156
Speaker 3: I think they have hidden potential. So many teachers and

614
00:32:14,196 --> 00:32:17,996
Speaker 3: mentors think that they're supposed to be Yoda and they're

615
00:32:18,036 --> 00:32:21,236
Speaker 3: just gonna they're gonna unfold their wisdom for you. And

616
00:32:21,316 --> 00:32:25,076
Speaker 3: the reality is that people are much better positioned to

617
00:32:25,156 --> 00:32:27,876
Speaker 3: learn if you guide them to come up with their

618
00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:31,676
Speaker 3: own answers as opposed to just spoon feeding them your answers.

619
00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:34,276
Speaker 3: It sounds like what it's like Proman was doing for

620
00:32:34,316 --> 00:32:36,996
Speaker 3: you is activating the tutor effect and the coach effect.

621
00:32:37,556 --> 00:32:39,676
Speaker 3: So the tutor effect is the finding that the best

622
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,156
Speaker 3: way to learn something is often to teach it that

623
00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:44,436
Speaker 3: when you have to, in this case, sort of teach

624
00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:47,036
Speaker 3: yourself and say, well, here's what I didn't like about

625
00:32:47,036 --> 00:32:50,596
Speaker 3: this violin performance. That leads you to understand it better

626
00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:52,316
Speaker 3: because you have to explain it. It leads you to

627
00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:55,116
Speaker 3: remember it better because you have to retrieve it. And

628
00:32:55,156 --> 00:32:57,476
Speaker 3: then in the process of coaching, normally it would be

629
00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:00,116
Speaker 3: coaching someone else, but in this case coaching yourself out loud,

630
00:33:00,756 --> 00:33:03,196
Speaker 3: you actually discover that you have some of the knowledge

631
00:33:03,236 --> 00:33:06,196
Speaker 3: you already need, and that builds your confidence and your motivation.

632
00:33:06,956 --> 00:33:09,236
Speaker 3: Is better to be uncomfortable today and better to maor

633
00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:12,836
Speaker 3: than it is to avoid discomfort today and stagnate tomorrow.

634
00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:16,156
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, there are limits though, right to our desire

635
00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:18,996
Speaker 1: to get better. Talk about imperfectionism and how that can

636
00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:21,356
Speaker 1: be an asset to us when it comes to unlocking

637
00:33:21,356 --> 00:33:22,436
Speaker 1: our hidden potential.

638
00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:25,956
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is for me, being an imperfectionist is

639
00:33:25,996 --> 00:33:29,236
Speaker 3: about It's not about lowering your standards at all. It's

640
00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:32,156
Speaker 3: about learning to accept the right imperfections that are not

641
00:33:32,436 --> 00:33:35,036
Speaker 3: essential to the excellence you're trying to achieve, or that

642
00:33:35,116 --> 00:33:38,956
Speaker 3: are necessary for growth. So I'll give you my diving example,

643
00:33:39,436 --> 00:33:41,876
Speaker 3: because this is where I first learned that this is

644
00:33:41,916 --> 00:33:44,716
Speaker 3: a skill. And to be clear, I'm still in recovery

645
00:33:45,156 --> 00:33:45,956
Speaker 3: from perfectionism.

646
00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're both recovering perfectionists, so big time, big time.

647
00:33:50,756 --> 00:33:53,516
Speaker 3: But I think in diving, I always was trying to

648
00:33:53,516 --> 00:33:55,236
Speaker 3: aim for a perfect ten. And one day my coach,

649
00:33:55,356 --> 00:33:57,476
Speaker 3: Eric Best sat me down and said, you know, there's

650
00:33:57,516 --> 00:33:59,716
Speaker 3: no such thing as a perfect ten. It's a misnomer.

651
00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:02,436
Speaker 3: In one rule book, a ten is for excellence. In

652
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:06,196
Speaker 3: the other, it's very good. And all of a sudden

653
00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:09,596
Speaker 3: I realized that the time I was spent trying to

654
00:34:09,596 --> 00:34:12,756
Speaker 3: perfect my dives was actually limiting my growth. In fact,

655
00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:15,876
Speaker 3: I've come to believe that if perfectionism were medication, it

656
00:34:15,876 --> 00:34:18,796
Speaker 3: would come with a warning label that says warning may

657
00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:20,036
Speaker 3: cause stunted growth.

658
00:34:21,196 --> 00:34:23,196
Speaker 1: You just got yourself a job at the FDA out

659
00:34:23,196 --> 00:34:23,876
Speaker 1: of a nice job.

660
00:34:24,036 --> 00:34:27,116
Speaker 3: I mean maybe, but what I lived was exactly what

661
00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:29,436
Speaker 3: the research shows, which is you only work on the

662
00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:31,476
Speaker 3: things you know you can do well. Yeah, if you're

663
00:34:31,476 --> 00:34:33,996
Speaker 3: trying to be perfect, you avoid anything where you might fail.

664
00:34:34,916 --> 00:34:36,996
Speaker 3: You end up missing the forest in the trees and

665
00:34:37,036 --> 00:34:39,756
Speaker 3: trying to tinker with these tiny details instead of looking

666
00:34:39,756 --> 00:34:42,196
Speaker 3: at the big picture, and you ruminate a lot and

667
00:34:42,236 --> 00:34:44,196
Speaker 3: beat yourself up. And I guess the way that I've

668
00:34:44,236 --> 00:34:47,916
Speaker 3: tried to put that into practice is I try to calibrate.

669
00:34:49,156 --> 00:34:51,316
Speaker 3: I have, you know, a range of different priorities in

670
00:34:51,316 --> 00:34:53,836
Speaker 3: my life. And when I write a book, I'm aiming

671
00:34:53,836 --> 00:34:56,956
Speaker 3: for a nine because it's a huge investment of time

672
00:34:57,036 --> 00:34:59,636
Speaker 3: and I hope there will be a decent number of

673
00:34:59,676 --> 00:35:02,916
Speaker 3: people who read it and benefit from it. But I

674
00:35:02,916 --> 00:35:05,596
Speaker 3: don't treat everything that way, you know, I'm very content

675
00:35:05,836 --> 00:35:09,276
Speaker 3: with a seven when I give a speech, no, knowing

676
00:35:09,396 --> 00:35:12,796
Speaker 3: that each audience is a little different and each performance

677
00:35:12,836 --> 00:35:15,676
Speaker 3: is going to be a little different, and good enough

678
00:35:15,716 --> 00:35:17,796
Speaker 3: is actually good enough in that situation. And I think

679
00:35:17,796 --> 00:35:20,396
Speaker 3: this is something we can all do, is to pause

680
00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:22,356
Speaker 3: to ask how high are the stakes here?

681
00:35:22,516 --> 00:35:23,316
Speaker 1: Yeah?

682
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:26,676
Speaker 3: And we aim obviously higher when it's more important and

683
00:35:27,156 --> 00:35:29,836
Speaker 3: we give ourselves a little bit more grace and permission

684
00:35:29,876 --> 00:35:35,356
Speaker 3: to be imperfect on things that are less consequential. And look,

685
00:35:35,756 --> 00:35:37,836
Speaker 3: no matter how good you get, there are always going

686
00:35:37,876 --> 00:35:40,276
Speaker 3: to be people who don't like what you do, and

687
00:35:40,356 --> 00:35:42,636
Speaker 3: there are always going to be aspects of your performance

688
00:35:42,996 --> 00:35:45,956
Speaker 3: that are going to fall short of someone's standards. You

689
00:35:46,036 --> 00:35:49,916
Speaker 3: cannot please everyone, so you might as well decide who

690
00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:50,996
Speaker 3: you're willing to disappoint.

691
00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:53,356
Speaker 1: Can you just say that one more time? I need

692
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:53,836
Speaker 1: to hear that.

693
00:35:53,796 --> 00:35:58,036
Speaker 3: One you, in particular, you as a human cannot please everyone,

694
00:35:58,036 --> 00:36:00,076
Speaker 3: and neither can anyone.

695
00:36:00,356 --> 00:36:02,476
Speaker 1: Okay, and therapy right there.

696
00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:05,756
Speaker 3: So you might as well decide who you're willing to

697
00:36:05,796 --> 00:36:09,636
Speaker 3: disappoint and which standards are important to you.

698
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:13,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm thinking about all the domains where this

699
00:36:14,036 --> 00:36:17,636
Speaker 1: imperfectionism perfectionist mindset is relevant. And I'm thinking about all

700
00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:20,436
Speaker 1: those parents out there that just brate themselves every day

701
00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:23,876
Speaker 1: because they don't think they're the perfect parents. And it's like, well,

702
00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:26,996
Speaker 1: what if a nine is every day my kids knew

703
00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:29,356
Speaker 1: I loved them? Like what if that was a nine?

704
00:36:29,436 --> 00:36:33,036
Speaker 1: Like maybe that is good enough slash perfection in the

705
00:36:33,036 --> 00:36:35,956
Speaker 1: domain of parenting versus oh, I know coach them through

706
00:36:35,956 --> 00:36:37,636
Speaker 1: the remote. I mean, just so it is a huge

707
00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:39,876
Speaker 1: manual now, right for how it is that we should

708
00:36:40,036 --> 00:36:42,196
Speaker 1: raise our kids. But yeah, it's just making me think

709
00:36:42,236 --> 00:36:45,676
Speaker 1: about how we define our north star. Yeah.

710
00:36:45,676 --> 00:36:47,916
Speaker 3: At first I was really reluctant to apply this to parenting,

711
00:36:48,356 --> 00:36:53,276
Speaker 3: Like I don't want parents to be scored. Your parenting

712
00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:56,476
Speaker 3: today was a three and a half. Yeah, but you

713
00:36:56,636 --> 00:36:59,876
Speaker 3: just changed my mind because there's no reason why we

714
00:36:59,956 --> 00:37:03,316
Speaker 3: can't clarify. Like, first of all, you should not expect

715
00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:05,316
Speaker 3: to be a perfect parent. No one will ever achieve

716
00:37:05,356 --> 00:37:09,276
Speaker 3: that standard. It's impossible. Yeh. Every parent makes mistakes. I

717
00:37:09,276 --> 00:37:11,716
Speaker 3: think that's part of how we grow as parents. I

718
00:37:11,716 --> 00:37:13,396
Speaker 3: think some of my best moments of growth as a

719
00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:16,196
Speaker 3: parent actually have come when I've been really disappointed in

720
00:37:16,236 --> 00:37:19,956
Speaker 3: myself for getting frustrated and impatient with our kids. But

721
00:37:20,036 --> 00:37:21,756
Speaker 3: I don't think a lot of parents I think this

722
00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:23,876
Speaker 3: is a big aha mooent for me. I don't think

723
00:37:23,876 --> 00:37:25,556
Speaker 3: a lot of parents have sat down to say, Okay,

724
00:37:26,356 --> 00:37:28,396
Speaker 3: I want to be a nine parent, not a ten parent,

725
00:37:28,756 --> 00:37:30,556
Speaker 3: because that's going to be healthier for me and for

726
00:37:30,676 --> 00:37:34,876
Speaker 3: my kid. What does a nine look like? What are

727
00:37:34,876 --> 00:37:37,156
Speaker 3: the behaviors that really matter and what are the ones

728
00:37:37,196 --> 00:37:38,876
Speaker 3: that are okay to be imperfect on.

729
00:37:39,636 --> 00:37:40,236
Speaker 2: Yeah.

730
00:37:40,276 --> 00:37:41,796
Speaker 3: I think that's a great discussion that we could all

731
00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:44,396
Speaker 3: have with our families. I'm going to force myself to

732
00:37:44,396 --> 00:37:46,076
Speaker 3: have it this weekend.

733
00:37:46,356 --> 00:37:49,436
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the most hopeful message coming out of

734
00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:51,956
Speaker 1: your book, and I love that you devote a sizeable

735
00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:54,996
Speaker 1: chunk of the book to this topic, is how we

736
00:37:55,076 --> 00:37:58,236
Speaker 1: can help unlock potential in others. It is a very

737
00:37:58,316 --> 00:38:00,516
Speaker 1: other focused orientation, which I think is just going to

738
00:38:00,556 --> 00:38:03,596
Speaker 1: make humanity better across the board, because you don't always

739
00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:06,876
Speaker 1: see that represented in in psych books. And so can

740
00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:10,396
Speaker 1: you just leave us with some reflections on how we

741
00:38:10,476 --> 00:38:13,116
Speaker 1: can help unlock potential in those around us?

742
00:38:13,556 --> 00:38:16,916
Speaker 3: This is my top pick for kicking myself that I

743
00:38:16,956 --> 00:38:19,716
Speaker 3: didn't write this into the book, Like, how did this

744
00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:23,276
Speaker 3: not make the cut? I don't know, all right. So,

745
00:38:23,516 --> 00:38:26,396
Speaker 3: a group of my colleagues, led by Laura Morgan Roberts,

746
00:38:26,476 --> 00:38:30,356
Speaker 3: created an exercise called the Reflected Best Self Portrait, and

747
00:38:30,436 --> 00:38:33,636
Speaker 3: the idea is that a lot of people have hidden

748
00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:36,196
Speaker 3: potential that's invisible to them. It's almost like the opposite

749
00:38:36,236 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 3: of a blind spot, that you're not aware of some

750
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,276
Speaker 3: of your own strengths and so you need other people

751
00:38:41,276 --> 00:38:43,116
Speaker 3: to hold up a mirror to help you identify the

752
00:38:43,156 --> 00:38:46,236
Speaker 3: things that you're good at that maybe these are underutilized

753
00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:48,636
Speaker 3: strengths as opposed to the overused ones that we talked

754
00:38:48,676 --> 00:38:53,036
Speaker 3: about earlier. So the exercise, I've had students and leaders

755
00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:56,156
Speaker 3: do it for about fifteen years now, and people often

756
00:38:56,196 --> 00:38:58,916
Speaker 3: come back and say, this was a life changing experience.

757
00:38:59,596 --> 00:39:01,916
Speaker 3: So all you do is you reach out to some

758
00:39:01,956 --> 00:39:03,676
Speaker 3: people who know you well in different walks of life.

759
00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:06,516
Speaker 3: You could do this with family, some friends, some colleagues,

760
00:39:07,076 --> 00:39:09,116
Speaker 3: and you ask them to tell a story about you

761
00:39:09,156 --> 00:39:11,796
Speaker 3: at a time when you were at your best. And

762
00:39:11,836 --> 00:39:15,116
Speaker 3: then you collect all the stories, which is the most

763
00:39:15,116 --> 00:39:18,716
Speaker 3: delightful set of emails you will ever get. And then

764
00:39:18,756 --> 00:39:21,836
Speaker 3: your job is to recognize the patterns and compose a

765
00:39:21,836 --> 00:39:24,596
Speaker 3: self portrait of who you are at your best. And

766
00:39:25,316 --> 00:39:27,636
Speaker 3: very often when people do this like oh, I didn't

767
00:39:27,636 --> 00:39:29,756
Speaker 3: even know that was the strength of mine, and now

768
00:39:29,956 --> 00:39:32,316
Speaker 3: I see all these places I can use it. I

769
00:39:32,356 --> 00:39:35,076
Speaker 3: also felt like this is a gift you can give

770
00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:37,396
Speaker 3: to other people to help them see their hidden potential.

771
00:39:37,476 --> 00:39:39,436
Speaker 3: So when I first learned about this exercise, I think

772
00:39:39,436 --> 00:39:41,436
Speaker 3: it was gosh, it must have been twenty years ago.

773
00:39:41,516 --> 00:39:44,956
Speaker 3: I remember the winter break starting and I was a

774
00:39:44,996 --> 00:39:47,916
Speaker 3: first year grad student. I had nothing on my calendar.

775
00:39:48,156 --> 00:39:50,596
Speaker 3: I was broke. What am I going to do with

776
00:39:50,756 --> 00:39:53,316
Speaker 3: this week? I decided that I was going to invert

777
00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:57,196
Speaker 3: the exercise, and I picked up a bunch of people who

778
00:39:57,236 --> 00:39:59,676
Speaker 3: mattered to me, and I wrote them all a story

779
00:39:59,836 --> 00:40:02,276
Speaker 3: about a time when they were at their best and

780
00:40:02,396 --> 00:40:06,836
Speaker 3: just emailed it to them out of the blue. It

781
00:40:06,916 --> 00:40:10,236
Speaker 3: is one of the most meaningful weeks I have ever spent,

782
00:40:10,436 --> 00:40:14,676
Speaker 3: even though I was just sitting in a room writing emails,

783
00:40:15,316 --> 00:40:18,076
Speaker 3: because really thinking about, well, what is other people's hidden

784
00:40:18,076 --> 00:40:21,316
Speaker 3: potential and how can I make that more visible to

785
00:40:21,356 --> 00:40:26,676
Speaker 3: them felt like a really meaningful act of friendship or

786
00:40:26,756 --> 00:40:29,756
Speaker 3: you know, an investment in a relationship, and people seem

787
00:40:29,796 --> 00:40:30,756
Speaker 3: to really appreciate it.

788
00:40:30,956 --> 00:40:33,156
Speaker 1: I love that example. That's something that everyone listening can

789
00:40:33,196 --> 00:40:34,076
Speaker 1: actually do right now.

790
00:40:34,196 --> 00:40:37,116
Speaker 3: I mean, just even pick one person and tell them

791
00:40:37,196 --> 00:41:10,476
Speaker 3: who they are at their best.

792
00:41:13,116 --> 00:41:15,956
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed my

793
00:41:15,996 --> 00:41:18,236
Speaker 1: conversation with Adam, you might want to check out the

794
00:41:18,276 --> 00:41:20,956
Speaker 1: first time he was on the show. It's an episode

795
00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:24,036
Speaker 1: called Adam Grant Thinks Again, and we'll link to it

796
00:41:24,076 --> 00:41:27,276
Speaker 1: in the show notes. And that's a wrap on our season.

797
00:41:27,916 --> 00:41:29,916
Speaker 1: I just want to thank you for spending this time

798
00:41:29,916 --> 00:41:32,556
Speaker 1: with me and the remarkable guests we've had on the show.

799
00:41:33,276 --> 00:41:36,356
Speaker 1: We'll be back early next year with new episodes. In

800
00:41:36,396 --> 00:41:39,276
Speaker 1: the meantime, I'm wishing you a happy and healthy rest

801
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:42,236
Speaker 1: of your year and a bit more equanimity in the

802
00:41:42,236 --> 00:41:55,196
Speaker 1: face of any Slight Changes of plan. A Slight Change

803
00:41:55,196 --> 00:41:58,196
Speaker 1: of Plans is created, written, and executive produced by me

804
00:41:58,316 --> 00:42:02,756
Speaker 1: Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Tyler Green,

805
00:42:03,236 --> 00:42:07,796
Speaker 1: our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our producer Trisha Bovida,

806
00:42:08,156 --> 00:42:12,476
Speaker 1: and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Louis Scara wrote our

807
00:42:12,516 --> 00:42:16,196
Speaker 1: delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals.

808
00:42:16,676 --> 00:42:19,796
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,

809
00:42:19,956 --> 00:42:23,396
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a

810
00:42:23,596 --> 00:42:26,836
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A

811
00:42:26,836 --> 00:42:51,836
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. So,

812
00:42:51,876 --> 00:42:54,916
Speaker 1: I remember when I flew to China after Jimmy and

813
00:42:54,916 --> 00:42:57,156
Speaker 1: I got married, and we had this big wedding reception,

814
00:42:57,796 --> 00:43:00,916
Speaker 1: and I was so jetlagged first of all, and I

815
00:43:00,996 --> 00:43:04,276
Speaker 1: was in extremely elementary Chinese land. I'm still in elementary

816
00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:07,556
Speaker 1: Chinese land, but I remember my in laws kind of

817
00:43:07,556 --> 00:43:09,876
Speaker 1: looked at me and they're like, so archie to say something.

818
00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:11,436
Speaker 1: And then on the spot, I had to come up

819
00:43:11,476 --> 00:43:15,276
Speaker 1: with this like wedding speech, and it was so it

820
00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:18,756
Speaker 1: was so basic, Adam. I was like, hello, I am Maya,

821
00:43:19,196 --> 00:43:22,316
Speaker 1: I'm married Jimmy. Thank you so much for being here,

822
00:43:22,356 --> 00:43:25,516
Speaker 1: you know, really poetic, like so much emotional residence. I'm

823
00:43:25,516 --> 00:43:27,316
Speaker 1: sure this is great.

824
00:43:27,356 --> 00:43:30,916
Speaker 3: You're like, see spot spot run exactly.

825
00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:34,356
Speaker 1: I'm like, I currently am in China. You are all

826
00:43:34,396 --> 00:43:35,516
Speaker 1: currently here as well,