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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: If a witcher said he was going to pay you money,

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Speaker 2: you don't need a contract. But if he says he's

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Speaker 2: going to shoot you, get out of town.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Smith and James Clement had always been in an

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Speaker 1: awful marriage that was poisoned by emotional abuse and accusations

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Speaker 1: of infidelity. Neither parent wanted the other to raise their

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Speaker 1: infant daughter, Lilia Maud, and when Victoria demanded a divorce

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Speaker 1: from James, it initiated a custody battle that pitted two

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Speaker 1: families against each other, two prominent families that were once close.

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Speaker 1: Just when it seemed like the story couldn't get any worse,

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Speaker 1: it did. Depositions were scheduled for September of eighteen fifty

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Speaker 1: nine in Sandy Level, Virginia to hear stories from family

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Speaker 1: members and witnesses. This meeting would be tainted by bitterness

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Speaker 1: and malice. It was assumed that everyone would come brandishing weapons,

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Speaker 1: some on their hips, others under their jackets. Who knows

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Speaker 1: how many guns and knives were there, and Lilia Maud's

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Speaker 1: great granddaughter, Vicki Borden says it seemed destined to end

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Speaker 1: in misery for both families.

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Speaker 3: So it was just a tragedy. It was terrible, and

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Speaker 3: it was a horrible thing for that part of Virginia

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Speaker 3: because they'd fought in the war and they owned all

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Speaker 3: the property and people looked up to them, and then

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Speaker 3: this horrible thing happened.

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Speaker 2: He said, it's just a dip in the road.

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Speaker 4: I bet is that right there?

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Speaker 5: Right there, there's like a dip in Then, oh, it's.

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Speaker 1: A hole in the ground.

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Speaker 6: That's it.

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Speaker 1: Have found that Wayne Woodchure and I have traveled just

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Speaker 1: a few miles from the Clement family home to the

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Speaker 1: side of a local store that played a very big

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Speaker 1: role in the feud. In eighteen fifty nine, the Witchers

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Speaker 1: and the Clements were ordered to attend depositions in the

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Speaker 1: divorce case of James Clement and Victoria Smith Clement. Both

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Speaker 1: families and their witnesses were scheduled to appear on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: September thirteenth in Sandy Level, Virginia. The location where we

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Speaker 1: are is called Washington Dickinson's Store, and it would become

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Speaker 1: very important later on.

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Speaker 7: Madam, how are you going to get in there and

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Speaker 7: see it?

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Speaker 8: It's gotta jump the fence.

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Speaker 1: There's a I think that's a gap. Y'all are so funny.

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Speaker 1: We can go to.

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Speaker 8: Watch out.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the hole.

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Speaker 8: There's a hole right there.

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Speaker 1: Dickinson's store was destroyed years ago, but we found our

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Speaker 1: way to the remnants of the building. There's just not

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Speaker 1: much left.

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Speaker 8: But yeah, there's snake skins.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, Oh what kind of snake do we think

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Speaker 1: that is?

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Speaker 8: And there's a stone right there, building stone right there.

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Speaker 4: Right here?

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Speaker 8: Yep, so right here on this very side that shooting

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Speaker 8: took place.

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Speaker 1: Huh, you're right, that's the original stone.

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Speaker 8: And let's tree here is probably one hundred years later.

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Speaker 8: Who knew this was here?

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Speaker 1: And nobody would ever know that that's what this was.

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Speaker 3: There's just a hole in the ground of this.

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Speaker 8: There was a store and that's where the shooting took place.

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Speaker 1: This store was a big deal for Wayne's family because

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Speaker 1: people died there. Crazy, we're tempting Wayne with too much stuff.

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Speaker 1: His head's gonna explode.

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Speaker 8: I'm realist. I know I can't get it all, but

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Speaker 8: I am going to preserve this.

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Speaker 1: I visited a lot of murder scenes for both my

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Speaker 1: books and my podcasts, but this location feels a little

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Speaker 1: different because I've never been able to stand on the

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Speaker 1: precise spot of so much bloodshed. Finding the remnants of

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Speaker 1: Dickinson's store is pretty exciting, but this location wouldn't enter

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Speaker 1: the story just yet. If what happened at Dickinson's Store

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Speaker 1: was the climax of the drama between the Witchers and

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Speaker 1: the Clements, then Sandy Level was the inciting incident. In

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Speaker 1: September of eighteen fifty nine, the Witchers and the Clements

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Speaker 1: prepared for a crucial court case. Victoria had temporary custody

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Speaker 1: of Liliah Maud, who is now six months old, but

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Speaker 1: the little girl's father wanted to change that. Victoria wanted

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Speaker 1: permanent custody of their daughter, and she wanted to force

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Speaker 1: her soon to be ex husband to pay more monetary support.

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Speaker 1: Victoria accused James of being a tyrant at home, a

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Speaker 1: dangerous abuser who threatened her life and almost killed several

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Speaker 1: enslaved people. Victoria was afraid that he would eventually kill

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Speaker 1: her or their daughter. James accused Victoria of being a

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Speaker 1: chronic cheater who regularly abused him and his family, and

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Speaker 1: then promptly abandoned their child. Sometime in the weeks before

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Speaker 1: the depositions, Lilia Maud disappeared. Someone from James's family snuck

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Speaker 1: into Victoria's mother's home and took the little girl. Victoria

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Speaker 1: immediately contacted the sheriff to demand that Lilia Maud be returned.

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Speaker 1: The sheriff agreed, he retrieved the little girl and returned

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Speaker 1: her to her mother. James was threatened with a ten

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars penalty if he tried to take Lilliamaud again.

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Speaker 1: Former law school professor Linda Frost says that during many

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Speaker 1: custody hearings, the parents do prioritize their children over their

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Speaker 1: own feelings.

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Speaker 9: Most of them, in their heart of hearts, want what's

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Speaker 9: best for their child because in the more acrimonious divorces

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Speaker 9: where people are going out and hiring lawyers and fighting,

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Speaker 9: particularly over custody, because fighting over money, the laws a

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Speaker 9: little clearer and it's not quite as personal. But you know,

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Speaker 9: with a child, not everybody can win. You have to

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Speaker 9: make some really hard decisions.

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Speaker 1: But Frost says that those hard decisions can be troublesome

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Speaker 1: for judges who have to play referee between two very

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Speaker 1: angry parents, and sometimes they're families.

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Speaker 9: And so those fights can get really, really acrimonious because

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Speaker 9: it goes to the heart of who you love and

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Speaker 9: care about your child. Most people ultimately want what's best

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Speaker 9: for their child, but they also believe that they know

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Speaker 9: what's best for their child, they would be the better caretaker.

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Speaker 9: They are getting divorced because there are things that they

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Speaker 9: are not liking in their former partner.

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Speaker 1: And that's how both the Clements and the Witchers felt

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Speaker 1: about Lilia Maud. As the depositions in Sandy Level approached,

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Speaker 1: the former couple kept their distance from each other.

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Speaker 4: For now.

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Speaker 1: There were law experts in both families, so the Witchers

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Speaker 1: and the Clements each represented their own side. Ralph Clements

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Speaker 1: was a practicing attorney in Franklin County, so he worked

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Speaker 1: on James's case. Vincent Oliver Witcher, the prestigious lawmaker, represented

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Speaker 1: his granddaughter. When Vicky Borden was younger, her father talked

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Speaker 1: to her about the feud. The girl at the center

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Speaker 1: of this fight, Liliah Maud, was his beloved grandmother. Vicki's

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Speaker 1: father told her that before the depositions, there was increasing

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Speaker 1: stress across the community of the event, not just between

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Speaker 1: the Witches and the Clements. When two powerful families quarrel,

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Speaker 1: it can affect everyone around them.

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Speaker 3: My father said that in his growing up that they

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Speaker 3: said it was building up the whole time they were

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Speaker 3: in the county seat to have this thing come before

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Speaker 3: the judge, that it was building up between these two families.

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Speaker 3: It was so tense, and the people in the town

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Speaker 3: always said that the tension was so thick, and they

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Speaker 3: knew something terrible was going to happen, and it did.

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Speaker 1: The night before the divorced depositions were taken on September thirteenth,

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifty nine, the Witches and the Clements arrived at

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Speaker 1: Sandy Level.

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Speaker 8: They met in Sandy Level, Pennsylvania County, for the purpose

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Speaker 8: of listening to each party bring their case forward.

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Speaker 1: The families stayed away from each other, but when they

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Speaker 1: entered the room the next morning, there were already signs

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Speaker 1: of strain. The families eyed each from across the room,

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Speaker 1: and the two attorneys, Vincent Oliver Witcher and Ralph Clement,

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Speaker 1: organized their papers as the proceedings began. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot at stake during these depositions. In the legal documents

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Speaker 1: submitted by Victoria and James, there were allegations of infidelity

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Speaker 1: and abuse, and both of those claims were serious charges

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Speaker 1: that were magnified by the fight over Lilia Maud. Victoria

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Speaker 1: believed that James had an estate worth at least sixteen

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars worth more than half a million dollars today,

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Speaker 1: though James had claimed that all of that money was

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Speaker 1: his father's, not his. Victoria had written in her bill

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Speaker 1: of complaint that she had heard that he would renew

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Speaker 1: his abuse and his slanderous charges if she took him

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Speaker 1: to court. She believed that if given the chance, James

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Speaker 1: would take his money and their daughter and leave Virginia forever. Now,

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Speaker 1: James had never denied that in in fact, he said

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Speaker 1: that Lillia Maud would be better off without Victoria. This

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Speaker 1: is the quote. The child has been raised thus far

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Speaker 1: principally by hand and not from its mother's breast, and

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Speaker 1: that she had been in the habit of frequently going

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Speaker 1: from home and leaving it to be attended by others.

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Speaker 1: James accused Victoria of abandoning their daughter so she could

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Speaker 1: continue her trysts with Buck Gilbert. As dozens of people

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Speaker 1: filed into the room that morning, Ralph Clement and Vincent

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Speaker 1: Oliver Witcher looked over their lists of witnesses. One of

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Speaker 1: the first was Sherwood Shelton, who worked for Johnston Clement

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Speaker 1: and lived in his house. Sherwood told the attorneys that

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Speaker 1: Victoria came to his house that night in August fleeing

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Speaker 1: from James. James came to retrieve her and then threatened

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Speaker 1: Sherwood's life. The Sheltons were like family to the Clements,

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Speaker 1: so this was really damaging evidences. Burger was up next.

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Speaker 1: James Clement believed that Victoria had been engaged to George's

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Speaker 1: brother Samuel, just a few weeks before James married her.

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Speaker 1: George never fully answered the question during the depositions, so

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Speaker 1: there was little context to those rumors. But if there

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Speaker 1: were one star witness in the divorce of James Clement

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Speaker 1: and Victoria Smith, it was Buck Gilbert, the man accused

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Speaker 1: of sleeping with Victoria Clement and ruining their promising marriage.

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Speaker 1: For his part, Buck denied any involvement with Victoria, only

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Speaker 1: admitting that they were friends. Buck understood how important his

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Speaker 1: testimony would be, and Bill Gaurnt says that was bad

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Speaker 1: news for his relative because James Clement was very focused

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Speaker 1: on Buck Gilbert.

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Speaker 4: He was a very jealous guy, and he continued to

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Speaker 4: think that Victoria had a thing for Buck Gilbert, and

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Speaker 4: I think that Victoria didn't mind letting him think that,

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Speaker 4: because she just didn't mind pushing his buttons. The Gilberts

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Speaker 4: lived in Franklin County. Witchers lived in Pennsylvania County, but

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Speaker 4: they're right on the border. So Buck shows up for

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Speaker 4: his deposition in Sandy Level.

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Speaker 1: James Clement glared at Buck as he approached the witness

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Speaker 1: chair while a stenographer took notes. James had been humiliated

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Speaker 1: both by the alleged affair and by being served with

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Speaker 1: divorce papers. Bill Gaurant says that Buck was trapped in

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Speaker 1: a courtroom with a man who hated him.

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Speaker 4: And so he was just crazy, jealous and angry, and

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Speaker 4: the divorces were very scanless in those days.

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Speaker 1: Other witnesses had come before Buck, but because each seemed

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Speaker 1: to be related to either the Witches or the Clements,

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Speaker 1: it was difficult to discern fact from fiction. The witnesses

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Speaker 1: from the Witchers contended that Victoria had excellent character. She

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Speaker 1: was a faithful wife, while friends of the Clements claimed

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Speaker 1: they never witnessed any signs of James's control violent behavior.

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Speaker 1: None of the witnesses seemed to offer much context for

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Speaker 1: the allegations of abuse and infidelity, and everyone seemed so

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Speaker 1: surprised that such a promising marriage would devolve into a wretched,

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Speaker 1: regretful relationship. Now it was time for Buck Gilbert to

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Speaker 1: answer some very invasive questions from both families and to

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Speaker 1: share his side of the story. First, he answered each

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Speaker 1: question from Victoria's representative, Vincent Oliver Witcher, her own grandfather,

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Speaker 1: the military leader, non intimidating at all. Vincent Oliver's goal

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Speaker 1: was to salvage his granddaughter's delicate reputation by proving that

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Speaker 1: Buck and Victoria were absolutely not having an affair. Are

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Speaker 1: you acquainted with Victoria c Clement, Vincent Oliver asked Buck,

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Speaker 1: I am, he replied. Vincent Oliver asked Buck about the

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Speaker 1: evening he and two witchermen spent the night with the couple,

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Speaker 1: the night that resulted in James accusing him of seducing

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Speaker 1: Victoria and leaving the door unlocked. Buck told the court

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Speaker 1: next morning, James our Clement asked me if I had

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Speaker 1: gone out of doors that night, and before or after

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Speaker 1: he asked the question, he asked me if I heard

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Speaker 1: any noise about the house that night. Buck denied to

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Speaker 1: James that he had ever left, And then Buck said

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Speaker 1: something interesting on the stand. He said that James had

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Speaker 1: not accused him of sleeping with Victoria. He thought that

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Speaker 1: Buck might have gone out drinking and made some noise

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Speaker 1: on the way out. But Buck claimed that the two

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Speaker 1: Witchers were actually to blame for that noise. Buck testified.

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Speaker 1: They said one of them had occasion to get up

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Speaker 1: that night and made some blunders in the dark, which

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Speaker 1: they said made a good deal of noise, and that

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Speaker 1: seemed to relieve Clement's mind so far as the noise

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Speaker 1: was concerned. So, according to Buck, James seemed concerned about

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Speaker 1: Buck sneaking out to drink alcohol, not sneaking out to

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Speaker 1: fool around with Victoria. In fact, Buck said that James

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Speaker 1: never directly accused him of sleeping with his wife. That's

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Speaker 1: a very different story than Victoria told about what happened

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Speaker 1: that night. She said that James had confronted both of

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Speaker 1: them about an affair, so who was telling the truth.

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Speaker 1: After a few more questions, Vincent Oliver Witcher concluded his

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Speaker 1: queries and took a seat. Buck now seemed slightly more

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Speaker 1: nervous because James's brother, Ralph Clement had risen to his feet.

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Speaker 1: His questions would certainly be much sharper. Ralph walked over

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Speaker 1: to Buck Clement and glared at the witness before asking

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Speaker 1: were you not in the habit of visiting or did

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Speaker 1: you not sometimes visit the said Victoria see Clement and

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Speaker 1: find her husband absent and spend some time with her alone.

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Speaker 1: This inquiry surely made everyone in the courtroom money. It

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Speaker 1: was a very inflammatory accusation, particularly in the nineteenth century

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Speaker 1: when a woman's virtue and honor were prized. Buck replied

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Speaker 1: calmly that if he had ever visited with Victoria without

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Speaker 1: her husband, that it wasn't for very long. He said,

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Speaker 1: I am confident I was never there. Fifteen minutes before

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Speaker 1: he made an appearance. Ralph Clement's questions only became more aggressive.

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Speaker 1: He asked, Buck, were you not there one whole evening

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Speaker 1: with Victoria C. Clement when James R. Clement and Bailey

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Speaker 1: Julian were at name in Law's till near night. Name

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Speaker 1: in Law was a middle aged married farmer in the

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Speaker 1: same county as Victoria and James. Buck confirmed that he

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Speaker 1: was at Victoria's house that evening when James was at

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Speaker 1: Nayman's home, but Buck couldn't remember if they had actually

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Speaker 1: ever been alone. Ralph Clement seemed to be growing frustrated.

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Speaker 1: He asked Buck, state if you did not often or

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Speaker 1: sometimes go near to the residents of James R. Clement,

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Speaker 1: either alone or in company with another after dark. Buck

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Speaker 1: thought for a moment and replied, upon one occasion, I

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Speaker 1: was not very far from his house with another after dark.

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Speaker 1: Buck said he was pursuing a runaway enslaved person, but

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Speaker 1: Ralph Clement seemed incredulous, and with that Buck Gilbert's deposition

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Speaker 1: was complete for the day. The court adjourned for the night,

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Speaker 1: and the families made sure to stay far away from

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Speaker 1: each other. The countryside at night in the autumn can

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Speaker 1: feel refreshing or inhospitable, depending on who or what might

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Speaker 1: be lurking in the dark. At that time, there were,

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Speaker 1: of course, no street lights, just starlight, and both families

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00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 1: knew that the other was out there somewhere. They wondered

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Speaker 1: if to morrow's depositions would end peacefully. The next morning's

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Speaker 1: depositions were set to begin at nine, so as they

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Speaker 1: had before, the witnesses all filed into the courthouse a

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Speaker 1: little beforehand. Buck Gilbert was supposed to resume his testimony

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Speaker 1: as soon as the proceedings began. James Clement was seated

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Speaker 1: at a table talking with his brother Johnston, but he

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Speaker 1: kept looking over to Buck. Buck and James glared at

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Speaker 1: each other. Certainly they each remembered the accusations. James believed

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Speaker 1: that Buck was sleeping with his wife, and Buck believed

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Speaker 1: that James, who was once his friend, was delusional. Both

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Speaker 1: Buck and James were armed. This wouldn't end well. Bill

291
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Speaker 1: Gurant and Wayne Witcher explained what happened next.

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Speaker 4: James and one of his brothers as they are, but

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Speaker 4: insults were delivered. Pistols were produced. The shooting broke out.

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Speaker 8: There was a shoe and there were people shot, including

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Speaker 8: mister Gilbert and two of the Clement men.

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Speaker 1: Everyone in the courtroom ran as the smoke thickened. The

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Speaker 1: blasts echoed across the walls of the room. There was

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Speaker 1: confusion and blood. There were nine shots in all, and

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Speaker 1: five hit someone. All three men were shot Buck Gilbert

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Speaker 1: and both James and Johnston Clement. Ralph Clement, the family attorney,

301
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:31,080
Speaker 1: stood to the side. Someone called for a horse and buggy,

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00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,160
Speaker 1: which quickly hauled James and Johnston to their family's home

303
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 1: in Franklin County, but Buck Gilbert was just grazed and

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00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: he was able to walk away. James and Johnston Clement

305
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 1: were not as lucky. Both would be bedridden for some

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Speaker 1: time with serious injuries. James's father, doctor George Clement, would

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00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: later make a public statement. He insisted that his son

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Speaker 1: James was innocent. The doctor wrote that James was sitting quietly,

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Speaker 1: engaging in a conversation with a gentleman when Buck Gilbert

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Speaker 1: drew his gun and fired at him. Doctor Clement said

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Speaker 1: James was surprised at the attack and defenseless. He didn't

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Speaker 1: even have time to draw his weapon. That seems unlikely,

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Speaker 1: because all three men were shot. Someone on the Clement

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Speaker 1: side had time to draw a weapon. But it didn't

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Speaker 1: matter now. Thanks to some haphazard insults and several serious injuries,

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Speaker 1: the depositions and the divorce were now derailed.

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Speaker 4: They just decided to postpone the depositions at that.

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Speaker 10: Point, no kidding.

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Speaker 1: Back at the Mountain View Plantation, James Clement's stepmother tended

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Speaker 1: to his injuries as he lay thinking about everything that

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00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,879
Speaker 1: happened that day. James was bedridden and very concerned both

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00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 1: about his health and what might happen the next time

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Speaker 1: the Witchers and the Clements saw each other. Nothing good.

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Speaker 1: James was so concerned about his own life that he

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Speaker 1: made an important decision to dictate his will just six

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Speaker 1: days after being shot by Buck Gilbert and Sandy Level.

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Speaker 1: The document read, I James R. Clement, of the County

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Speaker 1: of Franklin and State of Virginia, contemplating the end of

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Speaker 1: life from assassination or attack from my enemies, do make

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Speaker 1: this my last will and testament. James left everything to

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Speaker 1: his daughter, Lilia maud Clement, if James died before she

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00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 1: turned twenty one. He wanted his sister and her husband

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Speaker 1: appointed as the infants guardians, and they would receive his

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00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: assets until she either married or left their home as

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Speaker 1: an adult, and then he addressed his estranged wife in

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Speaker 1: his will. James wrote to my Victoria C. Clement, I

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Speaker 1: give nothing, having, as I confidently believe, dishonored my bed,

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00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,240
Speaker 1: left my house and home, and used every exertion to

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Speaker 1: ruin me in character and purse. I think she has

340
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Speaker 1: forfeited all right to dower in my estate, and I

341
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Speaker 1: wish to exclude her from it altogether. That's not surprising

342
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Speaker 1: considering how acrimonious their relationship had become. The Witchers and

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Speaker 1: the Clements brought loads of weapons to the store that day,

344
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Speaker 1: and they were prepared to use them for seemingly any reason.

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Speaker 1: There were up to nine shots fired and just a

346
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Speaker 1: handful of injuries. Clearly this divorce wasn't going well, but

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Speaker 1: considering there were worse possible outcomes, both families had actually

348
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Speaker 1: come away lucky for now. Author Dian King wrote the

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Speaker 1: most comprehensive book to date about the feud between the

350
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Speaker 1: Hatfields and the McCoys. King appeared on my other podcast,

351
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Speaker 1: Wicked Words. He says that when a McCoy accused a

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Speaker 1: hat Field of stealing his home, there was a trial.

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Speaker 1: The Justice of the Peace presiding over the trial was

354
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Speaker 1: a McCoy, and he made a few strategic decisions before

355
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Speaker 1: testimony began.

356
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Speaker 11: As his jurors, he picked six McCoys and six Hatfields.

357
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Speaker 11: You have these two powerful families. Imagine if you weren't

358
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Speaker 11: a Hatfield McCoy and we're sitting on that jury, it

359
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 11: wouldn't work out for you either way. It was all

360
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Speaker 11: Hatfield's McCoy's, and Pretrance was a very respected guy. They

361
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Speaker 11: all came fully armed to his house for the trial,

362
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Speaker 11: and he made everybody put their weapons aside. He gave

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Speaker 11: them a stern talking to and said, do unto your

364
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Speaker 11: neighbor as you would have them do unto you. You know,

365
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 11: don't take family sides. Let's decide this right.

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Speaker 1: Disarming both families and invoking the Bible might have worked

367
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Speaker 1: with the Hatfields and the McCoys, but there was no

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Speaker 1: mention of either of those things and the depositions between

369
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Speaker 1: the Witchers and the Clements, and there would be no

370
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: mention those things in the next depositions either. What a

371
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: tragic mistake. The first set of depositions in James and

372
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Speaker 1: Victoria's divorce was delayed after the gun battle between the

373
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Speaker 1: Clement brothers and Buck Gilbert. James and Johnston Clement both recovered,

374
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Speaker 1: but their anger toward everyone who wasn't in their family

375
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: had deepened, particularly toward the Witchers. James feared what would

376
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Speaker 1: become of Lilia Maud if Victoria gained full custody. How

377
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Speaker 1: could she be raised by a woman who was so unfaithful?

378
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: For her part, Victoria grew uneasy that perhaps James might

379
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 1: be allowed to raise their daughter without her. What if

380
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: people believed his stories about their horrible marriage over her

381
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 1: own stories. More depositions were scheduled for Saturday, February twenty fifth,

382
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty, back at Dickinson's store. So this was five

383
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: months later. But when two powerful, outraged families despise each

384
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Speaker 1: other this much, those months could feel like an eternity.

385
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: So they made threats from a distance, and in the

386
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Speaker 1: months leading up to these depositions there was a lot

387
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Speaker 1: of target practice. Jane Borden is Lilia Maud's great great granddaughter.

388
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 1: She says that the Clements and the Witchers made it

389
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Speaker 1: clear that if weapons were drawn at these upcoming depositions

390
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: that neither family would miss this.

391
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Speaker 7: Time, they both were doing target practice in advance, clearly

392
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Speaker 7: posturing to one another. I mean, I'm sure they also

393
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 7: wanted to practice because they thought this could end badly,

394
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Speaker 7: but it seems more like posturing. I mean, it's a

395
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 7: foregone conclusion when you're doing stuff like that.

396
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 1: The men fired all kinds of guns at every different

397
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: kind of target. It was clear that the winter months

398
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: had done nothing to cool the anger between the Witchers

399
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: and the Clements. Jane's mother, Vicky Borden, believes that both

400
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: families had reasons to be resentful.

401
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 3: Well, I think that the Clements and all of their

402
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 3: relatives were furious that Victoria would dare to leave him,

403
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: and I think the Witchers and all of Victoria's family

404
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: were furious that she felt like she had to leave him.

405
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Speaker 1: Vicky says that shooting guns might sound ominous, but the

406
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: Witchers and the Clements didn't have a history of killing

407
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 1: people without provocation, even during war. The Clement brothers might

408
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: have shot at Buck Gilbert, but many in their community

409
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a fluke, and so did

410
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: Lilia Maud, who told Vicky's father all about the shootout.

411
00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: From Victoria's point of view, Victoria told Maud that the

412
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: target practice might have seemed scary and threatening, but no

413
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: one took it seriously.

414
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: Nobody and either family ever thought they'd really shoot and

415
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 3: knife each other. They wanted them to know how angry

416
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 3: they were. They wanted to threaten each other, but they

417
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: never intended to kill each other. That wass not who

418
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: they were.

419
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: Well, we do know that they owned enslaved people, and

420
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: we know that James had abused them, and others in

421
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: this story likely did too, So it doesn't seem like

422
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: a stretch to me to assume that both the Clements

423
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: and the Witchers were capable of violence. Vicky says that

424
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: her great grandmother's parents might have hated each other, but

425
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: they loved Lilia Maud and no one wanted to leave

426
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: her orphaned. The Witchers and the Clements were affluent and influential.

427
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: They weren't criminals who reacted without considering the consequences.

428
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 3: They weren't families who killed each other. These were not

429
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 3: those kinds of people. These were different. These were legislators,

430
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 3: and these were not people who got guns and went

431
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: out and killed somebody because they didn't like what they did.

432
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: But it was threatening.

433
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: But Clement relative Desmond Kendrick, isn't so sure. He says

434
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: that both families felt forced to defend their honor, and

435
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: the more time that passed, the more difficult it became

436
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: to control themselves. That would become obvious as the day

437
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: of the depositions approached.

438
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 10: Well, I feel like that divorce proceeding in eighteen fifty

439
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 10: nine was just a little spark when she was trying

440
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 10: to get the divorce because at the time, you didn't

441
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 10: do that. And so then in February of eighteen sixty

442
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 10: when that really came about, I think that really hit

443
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 10: the fan, and they were just almost looking for a

444
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 10: reason to get into something, not just the Witchers of

445
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 10: the Clements. But that's just my thinking on it from

446
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 10: what I've understood for both sides of it. So I

447
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 10: don't blame anybody.

448
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: But by the time this feud ended, one family seemed

449
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: much more to blame than the other, or won felt

450
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: a great loss, but both families would pay a price

451
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: for generations, and as a nation approached a civil war,

452
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: there was resentment and tension and anger everywhere, a nationwide feud.

453
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: By February of eighteen sixty, the United States was still

454
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: about nine months away from electing Abraham Lincoln as president.

455
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: America was more than a year away from becoming entrenched

456
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: in the Civil War, where Virginia would become a central figure.

457
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: Virginia would soon be one of the eleven states to

458
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: secede from the Union. Following the election of Abraham Lincoln

459
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: as president in November of eighteen sixty, Southerners worried that

460
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: Lincoln would put an end to slavery and When the

461
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: Confederate States of America formed, President Jefferson Davis picked Richmond

462
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,719
Speaker 1: as its capital, but historian Kelly Brennan says that in

463
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty the country wasn't just on the precipice of

464
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: bloody battles. There were already pockets of violence across America,

465
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: foreshadowing the division of a country.

466
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 5: Things are going nuts. We've had violence break out a

467
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 5: number of different places, particularly in the South. Yet John Brown,

468
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 5: who has these violent raids because he's trying to liberate

469
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 5: enslaved people. You have the fact that you're seeing the

470
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 5: publication of more abolitionist tracts. They're actually trying to move

471
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 5: into the South.

472
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: The state would soon split, with the western half of

473
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: Virginia supporting the Union, pitting some families against each other.

474
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: The fisions opening all across America were becoming irreparable, and

475
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: back in Virginia there was similar turmoil and division between

476
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: two families caused by years of mistrust and disloyalty. Historian

477
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: Bill Gurant says that there were two main catalysts for

478
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: this final confrontation, James Clement and Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher.

479
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 10: Witcher.

480
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 4: Captain Witcher I call him when his let's say, the

481
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 4: virtue of his granddaughter was challenged, it's all somebody's going

482
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 4: to die for that, and that meant all of his

483
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 4: sons were going to have to stand up for that

484
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 4: position as well. They probably felt it as strong as

485
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 4: he did.

486
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: James Clement and Vincent Oliver might have been the loudest

487
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 1: voices during the depositions, but both men drew in their

488
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: own family members, whether they wanted to be included or not.

489
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 4: Likewise, you know the Clements. It wasn't just James who

490
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 4: was showing up at this stuff. Him and his brothers.

491
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 1: On the day of the depositions, both families traveled just

492
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: a few miles from their homes to Washington Dickinson's store.

493
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: There was a county courthouse about twenty miles away, which

494
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like far to travel in twenty twenty two,

495
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: but Wayne Witcher and Bill Grant say that in the

496
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds, riding a long distance could actually affect

497
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: the outcome of a trial.

498
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 8: It took a lot of time to travel to where

499
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 8: the courthouse was, which would have been in Adam, which

500
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 8: is the center of Pittsylvania County, and the Dickinson Store

501
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 8: is kind of on the edge of Pittsylvania County, so

502
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 8: they would set up a place closer to where the

503
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 8: individuals lived, and it was more convenient for them to

504
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 8: get the witnesses there.

505
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 4: I remember this is before the age of automobiles. Took

506
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 4: a long time to get from one place to another.

507
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 4: The depositions have to occur within the county of the

508
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 4: residents of the witness. If you said it so that

509
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 4: it's ridiculously inconvenient, they may be excused from attending or something.

510
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 4: So they probably just chose that store as a central

511
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: place that had a place like this room where the

512
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 4: witness and the lawyers could talk and the sonographer could

513
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 4: set up and take down the testimony.

514
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: And it's likely that the depositions were scheduled close to

515
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: both families. Because James Clement still had not recovered from

516
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: the shooting last fall, the only way he could attend

517
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: the depositions in February was if he stayed lying down

518
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: in a bed that would be rolled into the store.

519
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: Just like during the first set of depositions, James Clement

520
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 1: and Victoria Witcherd Smith were represented by family members. Victoria's

521
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: case was once again presented by her grandfather, Vincent Alliver Witcher,

522
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: and once again Ralph Clement was representing James. The second

523
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: set of depositions went very much like the first. Each

524
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: side had a list of witnesses, though Buck Gilbert wasn't

525
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: at Dickinson's store this time. After the shootout in Sandy Level,

526
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: Buck left town and refused to return, probably a good idea.

527
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: These question and answer sessions seemed more intense than the last,

528
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: likely because everyone knew how many weapons each side was carrying,

529
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: and because there had been so much anger on display

530
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: in the months since the last time the families met.

531
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: Judge Robert Mitchell was the justice taking the depositions. After

532
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: a day of recording the witness's statements, Elizabeth Bennett sat

533
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: in the witness chair, ready to give her thoughts about

534
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: Victoria and James Clement. Bennett could have been seen as controversial,

535
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: at least to the Witchers. She and the c were friends.

536
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: She and her husband lived on Ralph's land. Bennett had

537
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: seen James and Victoria interact many times. Her testimony would

538
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: likely have an impact on how the marriage was framed.

539
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: The Witchers thought that Bennett would undermine Victoria's claims that

540
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: James was abusive. Vincent Oliver Witcher would have none of that.

541
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver Witcher sprang up, turned to Judge Mitchell and

542
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: made a motion for an adjournment of taking the woman's deposition.

543
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: He told the judge that he and his family lived

544
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: fifteen miles from Dickinson's store and it seemed impossible to

545
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: finish the deposition before nightfall. Vincent Oliver Witcher hoped to

546
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: postpone the testimony for a few more days. Ralph Clement

547
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 1: stood up and insisted they stay and continue the examination.

548
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: Captain Witcher glared at Ralph and then questioned the witness's truthfulness.

549
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: That might have actually been the real reason for the postponement.

550
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,840
Speaker 1: Captain Witcher sat back down and glanced over at James Clement.

551
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: Vincent Oliver's sons and his grandson Addison sat nearby. Wayne

552
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 1: Witcher and Bill Gurant explain what happened next.

553
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 8: Captain Vincent Oliver Witcher objected to one of the witnesses

554
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 8: who were being examined, saying that she was brought into

555
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 8: the case by the Clements and was under their control.

556
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 8: And Ralph Clement, who was the attorney of James Clement

557
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 8: at that point said, whoever said that told a damned lie.

558
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 4: Captain Witcher stood up and said say that again, which

559
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 4: Clement said, you heard what I said, and I stand

560
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:33,719
Speaker 4: by what I.

561
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 8: Said, whereupon Vincent Oliver Witcher replied, you had better make

562
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 8: your remarks more direct than Captain Witcher rose from his chair,

563
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 8: put his hand in his bosom, and drew out a

564
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 8: five shooter, stepped toward Ralph Clement.

565
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,280
Speaker 4: How can you know they won't influence the witness? Boom,

566
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 4: the guns come out.

567
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 1: Bill Garant and Vicky Borden say that the argument deteriorated quickly,

568
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: in tragically, and it.

569
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 3: Got out of hand. And it got out of hand

570
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 3: because of one guy in the courtroom accused of how

571
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: the guy being a liar, and then all the threats

572
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 3: and all the hatred and all the violence just bubbled

573
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 3: over and that was it.

574
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 8: What I'm wondering is why they didn't make them check

575
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 8: their guns and knives at the door. Kind of interesting.

576
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 8: They had to have known that this would happen.

577
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: The second set of depositions had always seemed destined for

578
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: disaster for both families, and in the years that followed,

579
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: locals often blamed the Witchers for the violence that would

580
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: unfold that day, but Edith Witcher Gordon says that criticism

581
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: has rarely bothered her family.

582
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: I don't think people really cared. But it was disgraceful

583
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: or not. It was just who we were, and I

584
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: don't think people cared. This is just part of who

585
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: we are. And you talk about the good, the bad,

586
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 2: and anything in between, and it is that people sat

587
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: around talking about it all the time. But you know,

588
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: when family reunions are gatherings or any things, a lot

589
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 2: of times usually some of the older ones would bring

590
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: up something like that and then conversations would occur. But

591
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: I didn't hear that much about it where I was

592
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: growing up.

593
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: Retired law school professor Linda Frost says that in our society,

594
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: there are habitual criminals and then there are people who

595
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: simply made a mistake, sometimes a very big mistake. But

596
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 1: those people shouldn't necessarily be condemned.

597
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 9: I think that's a neat and tidy way to think

598
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 9: about it. To label somebody a criminal. You know, I

599
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 9: would hate to be known by my worst act in

600
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 9: my life. That would not be good. But I think

601
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 9: we label people as criminals rather than somebody who at

602
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 9: one point had a problem with the legal system. That is,

603
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 9: assuming that the system worked as it's supposed to, and

604
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 9: they actually are cultable because there are people who are

605
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 9: not culpable who are caught up in it.

606
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,760
Speaker 1: Wesley Witcher says that no matter what happens to the Witchers,

607
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: no matter which century it happens, in the family will

608
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: always stay unified. You know, I've said this in other seasons,

609
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 1: but blood is thicker than water.

610
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 6: You're never going to be an outcast in this family.

611
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 6: You're never going to be out on your own. Whatever

612
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 6: you go through, you're going to have somebody that you

613
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 6: can fall back on. So, you know, I kind of

614
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 6: get that from that feud story. It was come against one,

615
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 6: you come against all. It's like the three Musketeers multiplied.

616
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: Just a few months earlier, back in September, the shootout

617
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,919
Speaker 1: had ended with some wounds and some damaged egos. Those

618
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: depositions would soon seem tame. Captain Vincent Oliver Wicher, his son,

619
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: and his grandsons were all armed, so were James Clement

620
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 1: and his brothers, and soon there would be blood spilled

621
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: on the floor of Dickinson's dry goods store. On the

622
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: next episode of Tenfold War Wicked on Exactly Right.

623
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 8: He lived for nearly three hours despite his wounds after

624
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 8: he had been shot, and some reports say that it

625
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 8: was the Witchers that were the aggressors, But then there

626
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 8: are other reports which say that it was the Clements

627
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 8: who were the aggressors.

628
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,320
Speaker 7: Only one hundred and sixty years ago, people just killed

629
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 7: each other over public insults. I mean, that's basically Twitter.

630
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,439
Speaker 7: That's like if Twitter existed one hundred and sixty years ago,

631
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 7: I guess everybody would just be mass murderers.

632
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 3: It's a woman who runs away with her child, comes back,

633
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 3: runs away again. There's a court case, there's a huge

634
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 3: fight in the courtroom, people are killed, and then bam,

635
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: that's the end of it. I don't think anything good

636
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: came out of it for anybody.

637
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for

638
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Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked

639
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: is based on our first season of Tenfold War Wicked.

640
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer

641
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book

642
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Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly

643
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Speaker 1: right tenfold more Media production producers Jason Whaling, Alexis Mrosi

644
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: and Laura Sobole, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath,

645
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff

646
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at

647
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Speaker 1: tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More and

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00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: if you know of a historical true crime that could

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Speaker 1: use some attention, email us at info at tenfoldmoremedia dot com.

650
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Speaker 1: Subscribe now on Amazon Music, Stitcher, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

651
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