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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero I am Akshadrati This week the future

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Speaker 1: of climate science. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was

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Speaker 1: founded in nineteen eighty eight as a United Nations body

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Speaker 1: that provides impartial advice to governments about the state of

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Speaker 1: climate science. It is best known for producing its assessment

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Speaker 1: reports roughly every five years, and they formed the basis

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Speaker 1: of policies around the world. The last set of reports,

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Speaker 1: known as AR six, were released between twenty twenty one

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Speaker 1: and twenty three and made headlines around the world for

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Speaker 1: saying that it is unequivocal that human influence has warmed

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Speaker 1: the atmosphere, ocean, and land. It may sound obvious now,

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Speaker 1: but the level of evidence needed for all scientists to

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Speaker 1: agree on unequivocal is nothing short of daggering, and that's

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Speaker 1: why it made front page headlines around the world. The

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Speaker 1: IPCC's and next set of reports, called AR seven, are

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Speaker 1: due to be released between twenty twenty eight and twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: and while they no longer need to prove that humans

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Speaker 1: are causing climate change, these reports will form the basis

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Speaker 1: of the next set of government policies and targets. It's

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Speaker 1: vital work and when the reports come out, they will

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Speaker 1: make front page headlines again, but the organization is now

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Speaker 1: operating in a much more challenging environment, with climate misinformation

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Speaker 1: on the rise and the US withdrawing from the IPCC

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Speaker 1: process that reduces the contributions to the IPCC's budget and

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Speaker 1: cuts the funding for US climate scientists to participate. This

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Speaker 1: week on Zero I am joined by Professor Jimski, the

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Speaker 1: Chair of the IPCC, to ask what the future of

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Speaker 1: the IPCC looks like, whether the organization can survive the

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Speaker 1: US's withdrawal, and what kind of questions the next set

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Speaker 1: of reports are going to answer. Welcome to the show,

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Speaker 1: professors Ki.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. Very pleased to be here.

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Speaker 1: So the IPCC is nearly forty years old and its

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Speaker 1: comprehensive reports have formed the basis of how the world

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Speaker 1: understands and attempts to tackle climate change, and the work

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Speaker 1: is being recognized widely. It even won Nobel Prize in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. You became the chair in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, and you will preside over what is going

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Speaker 1: to be the seventh Assessment report that'll come over the

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Speaker 1: next few years. We'll come to the report and we'll

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Speaker 1: try and understand a little bit about the science and

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Speaker 1: the political moment that we find ourselves in. But if

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Speaker 1: you take the big picture of you, how do you

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Speaker 1: think the IPCC has evolved to remain effective in these

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Speaker 1: four decades.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think when IPCC started out, and just to

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Speaker 2: say I was not there at the beginning, I'm old,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not that old. So I think it was

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Speaker 2: a world in which things were actually much more informal.

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Speaker 2: You know, a group of scientists got together, obviously under

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Speaker 2: intergovernmental auspices, but they were a small number of scientists.

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Speaker 2: And as we've gone through the last thirty forty years

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Speaker 2: we face challenges. I think we formalized the process as

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Speaker 2: much more. Our principles and procedures are much more elaborate.

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Speaker 2: We have ways of dealing with any alleged errors that

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Speaker 2: occur in reports. We have much more formal ways of

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Speaker 2: appointing off authors and criteria for selecting authors. So it's

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Speaker 2: a much more disciplined world, if I can put it

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Speaker 2: that way, from the world we started in.

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Speaker 1: There is right now a group of people who understand

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Speaker 1: and are convinced about climate action and who are proceeding

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Speaker 1: with taking on many of the steps that the IPCC

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Speaker 1: has laid out there is also an has always been

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Speaker 1: another group of people who are completely opposed to climate action,

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Speaker 1: who are ideologically opposed to it. How do you think

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Speaker 1: IPCC's work speaks to that second group of people.

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Speaker 2: Well, just to say, it's not IPCC's job to engage

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Speaker 2: in advocacy. It's our job to stick to the science,

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Speaker 2: and we're not going to enthusiastically engage in big debates

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Speaker 2: among advocates either for or against climate change action. So

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Speaker 2: what we need to do is to keep putting over

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Speaker 2: the messages that we have put over in the reports

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Speaker 2: that are solidly rooted in climate science. In the last report,

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Speaker 2: we said, and this was one of the strongest IPCC

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Speaker 2: statements ever, humans are responsible for the climate change that

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Speaker 2: we are seeing, and that evidence is unequivocal. So unequivocal

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Speaker 2: is a strong word, but it really reflected the underlying science.

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Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time in the lab. I

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Speaker 1: got a PhD in chemistry, and so I have much

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Speaker 1: appreciation for the process of science. Why scientists have to

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Speaker 1: be precise and measured when they communicate the results that

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Speaker 1: they come up with. But in this environment where policy

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Speaker 1: is shaped not just by the science, but by people

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Speaker 1: who are allowed. You know, you have politicians, you have

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Speaker 1: TikTok influencers and YouTube stars, and even respected newspapers who

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Speaker 1: publish columns that are completely anti science, that take the

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Speaker 1: wrong science on. Given the information ecosystem, how do you

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Speaker 1: think IPCC's communication strategy has to evolve in this moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad you used the word ecosystem in

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Speaker 2: your question because I was about to use it in

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Speaker 2: my answer. There is a very complex ecosystem of bodies

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Speaker 2: addressing climate change, all the way from pure science to

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Speaker 2: your advocacy. An IPCC's place in the ecosystem, it's unique

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Speaker 2: one is that it's findings represent a consensus between governments

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Speaker 2: and scientists. The way that our reports are produced at

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Speaker 2: the final stages, and that gives us just a very

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Speaker 2: very unique role and a sense of authority. So we

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Speaker 2: absolutely it says in our rules our first audiences are

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Speaker 2: the UN system and governments, so it's public policy making

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Speaker 2: that is our target audience. But we also have secondary

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Speaker 2: audiences and we try to get the message out to

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Speaker 2: a much wider range of people, whether it's people in business,

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Speaker 2: civil society, and NGOs, young people. You know through trying

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Speaker 2: to produce, say, fact sheets that summarize the findings of

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Speaker 2: IPCC reports. So our communication is absolutely there our first

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Speaker 2: one governments in the UN, but we don't ignore other

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Speaker 2: audiences as well.

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Speaker 1: But when the IBCC comes under attack for political biases,

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Speaker 1: for cherry picking all these phrases that Clement denihlysts come

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Speaker 1: up with, do you need to respond and be offensive

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Speaker 1: about your strategy to respond to the fact that these

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Speaker 1: are not based in valid.

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Speaker 2: I don't think our communication strategy implies that. You know,

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Speaker 2: we we dive into the blogosphere and respond to every

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Speaker 2: single comment because there are so many of them out there.

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Speaker 2: We do take a measured approach to it. We just

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Speaker 2: continue to plug away at the messages, the findings of

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Speaker 2: the scientific reports, because the moment we start engaging in

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Speaker 2: these in these debates, that's the moment we take away

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Speaker 2: from our authority there. So we are very conscious of

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Speaker 2: our unique position.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that approach is working?

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Speaker 2: It's working as well. I mean, if we were to

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Speaker 2: engage in the blogosphere, it's not what it's what you

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Speaker 2: could lose that we're worried about, not what you could

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Speaker 2: actually win. There are huge risks there because it could effectly,

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Speaker 2: you know, affect people's perception of us if we are

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Speaker 2: perceived to be on one side or another of a debate.

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Speaker 2: We are supposed to review all the literature taken to

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Speaker 2: count all the possible views, and if we become one

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Speaker 2: of the actors in a debate, I think it causes

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Speaker 2: a lot of problems reputationally.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about AR seven and the report that's

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Speaker 1: coming and the science that's going to be fed into it.

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Speaker 1: IPCC reports that thousands of pages long. They are long

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Speaker 1: for a good reason. There's a lot of science that

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Speaker 1: goes in there. But you know, you compare it to

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Speaker 1: other reports that have come out just for fun. I

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Speaker 1: picked one. The US era nuclear Deal was one fifty

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Speaker 1: nine pages long. So, after six such assessments that you've done,

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Speaker 1: what are big questions that AR seven still needs to

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Speaker 1: find ways to answer?

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there are several things that will be I mean,

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Speaker 2: science enough for sleeps that are always new issues opening up.

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Speaker 2: One of the things, it's now almost certain that we

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Speaker 2: will exceed global warming of one point five degrees within

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Speaker 2: the next few years, so but politicians still maintain this

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Speaker 2: aspiration to limit warming to one point five degrees in

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Speaker 2: the long which means we will, in the parlance, have

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Speaker 2: overshoot of the temperature limit and politicians would aspire to

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Speaker 2: bring us back again. And understanding this overshoot is one

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Speaker 2: of the big challenges for the next cycle that scientists

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Speaker 2: are working on right at the moment there and it

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Speaker 2: cuts across all of IPCC because our physical scientists in

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Speaker 2: Working Group one need to respond to issue how would

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Speaker 2: the Earth system respond to removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere,

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Speaker 2: and it's not fully understood. Our people on impacts and

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Speaker 2: adaptation in Working Group two need to understand some of

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Speaker 2: the irreversibility and irreversible impacts that might occur as we

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Speaker 2: go past one point five degrees that we can't go

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Speaker 2: back on even if we bring their temperatures back down.

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Speaker 2: And for our colleagues in Working Group three on the

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Speaker 2: mitigation side, which means removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere

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Speaker 2: as well as reducing emissions, the big challenge is there

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Speaker 2: there are many new, more technological approaches to removing carbon

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Speaker 2: dioxide from the atmosphere that have yet to be addressed

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Speaker 2: fully in IPCC reports or the underlying science. So there's

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Speaker 2: just a huge agenda round that particular issue.

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Speaker 1: And it's very important that we understand the science before

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Speaker 1: we start spending billions and maybe trillions of dollars that's

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Speaker 1: what may be needed for the type of carbon removal

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Speaker 1: we are talking about. When you say that there are

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Speaker 1: still questions and uncertainties, where are those uncertainties the biggest.

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Speaker 2: Well, the uncertainties go right through it, because we obviously

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Speaker 2: haven't done physically all the things that we might need

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Speaker 2: to do in terms of carbon dioxide removal. We don't

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Speaker 2: understand what the costs are. There are lots of claims

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Speaker 2: out there, but we haven't done it at a commercial

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Speaker 2: scale as yet. And then there are other issues about

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Speaker 2: the feasibility. They're very reliant on resources like energy, water,

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Speaker 2: land availability, and there may be political acceptance issues as well.

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Speaker 2: So all of these issues around feasibility are going to

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Speaker 2: need to be addressed as well.

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Speaker 1: There are other things that have come up in the

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Speaker 1: last few years, so there has been some talk about

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Speaker 1: perhaps we are on a faster warming track than was

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Speaker 1: previously taught, and especially the years of twenty three and

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Speaker 1: twenty four were those piers when people really were alarmed

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Speaker 1: by the types of impact that we were seeing at

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Speaker 1: that temperature. Is the IPCC looking to answer that question

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Speaker 1: in the next report.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the last report didn't get quite there

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Speaker 2: in terms of answering that because we were seeing some

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Speaker 2: very unusual kind of things happening just as the last

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Speaker 2: reports came out. I think the conclusion that we've got

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Speaker 2: so far in terms of global indicators, we are right

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Speaker 2: at the edge of the envelope of projections that were

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Speaker 2: previously produced, but we have not yet gone outside the

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Speaker 2: envelope as yet. Now that's not the case for more

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Speaker 2: local indicators, for example in specific regions of the world,

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Speaker 2: or for example for the oceans where we've seen heat

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Speaker 2: waves in the oceans in particular places that are quite

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Speaker 2: you know, are really not well understood. They're outside what

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Speaker 2: was projected. So yeah, we've got to dive into that

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Speaker 2: over the next three years or so.

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Speaker 1: You got started in the climate side of the equation

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Speaker 1: or the environmental side of the equation through sulfur pollution

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Speaker 1: in your early research in the US. Most recently, sulfur

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Speaker 1: pollution came up as an issue where because the shipping

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Speaker 1: fuels are getting cleaner, there were places around the Mediterranean

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Speaker 1: in the North Atlantic that saw higher warming. Is that

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Speaker 1: the type of question that needs to also be answered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the question sulfur dioxide is important because you know,

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Speaker 2: in the atmosphere, it tends to cool the atmosphere rather

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Speaker 2: than warm it top. So if you take the sulfur

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Speaker 2: dioxide away, temperatures will be higher than the otherwise would

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Speaker 2: have been. So, yeah, that's the one of the important

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Speaker 2: things that we do need to consider. Now we have

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Speaker 2: a part of IPCC that not many people have necessarily noticed,

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Speaker 2: called the Task Force or National Greenhouse Gas Inventories or

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Speaker 2: the TFI, and it has been charged with developing methods

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Speaker 2: by which governments can report their emissions of pollutants like

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Speaker 2: sulfur dioxide to the unf Triple C in the future

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Speaker 2: so that these things can be taken into account. It's

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Speaker 2: one of two methodology reports that the TFI will produce

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Speaker 2: during the cycle, the other one being on carbon dioxide

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Speaker 2: removal technologies, on carbon culture utilization and storage.

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Speaker 1: There's also been the use of artificial intelligence, which I

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Speaker 1: would say is new. You know, there was machine learning

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Speaker 1: in the previous cycle, I guess, but today it is

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Speaker 1: much faster. It's being used more widely. There could be

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Speaker 1: applications for how IPCC scientists collate the information to put

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Speaker 1: into reports. How is AI being seen, both from the

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important for everybody, and it's important for us

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Speaker 2: as well, and that's actually why we ran a three

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Speaker 2: day workshop last week at the University of Reading on

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Speaker 2: specifically the topic of methods assessment on artificial intelligence and

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Speaker 2: large language models played a big role in that. Now

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Speaker 2: that meeting finished just three days ago, so I'm not

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Speaker 2: quite in a position to report on the findings, but

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Speaker 2: it's very clear that AI has implications all the way

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Speaker 2: through from discovery of literature. It may actually improve the process.

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Speaker 2: It can help us perhaps with addressing the thousands upon

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Speaker 2: thousands of review comments that we get on each of

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Speaker 2: our individual drafts. But one thing to be very sure,

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Speaker 2: and this is a very solid conclusion. When every IPCC

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Speaker 2: report comes out, the authors are told you are going

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Speaker 2: to be responsible for all of the content, and there's

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Speaker 2: no way you can just turn it over to AI

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Speaker 2: and use that to excuse so it needs to be

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Speaker 2: checked and I think a very big conclusion this is

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Speaker 2: about the interaction with human beings and technology technology is

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Speaker 2: not going to solve the problems here. We need the

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Speaker 2: people as part of the process. On one particular area

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Speaker 2: where it's important that the humans there are assigning the

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Speaker 2: confidence level in findings, and we really can't find a

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Speaker 2: way in which AI can really substantially help us with that.

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Speaker 2: A lot of judgment is still needed there.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly what our editors see to us as well.

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Speaker 1: Every word that's published by us is under our byline.

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Speaker 1: If we use AI for research, etc. That's on us.

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Speaker 1: If AI makes mistaken republish it, that's on me, not

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Speaker 1: the AI. So I think that's important from a place

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Speaker 1: of bringing trust, But it also points me to a

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Speaker 1: place where you know IPCC reports, they are long, and

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Speaker 1: they're big, and they come every five to seven years

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Speaker 1: kind of the amount of time it takes. But every

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Speaker 1: assessment report, one of the scientists told us, is now

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Speaker 1: packed with double the amount of research compared to the

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Speaker 1: previous one. So the rate at which climate science research

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Speaker 1: is happening is also growing. Isn't there then a case

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Speaker 1: to be made that despite how much work it takes,

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Speaker 1: you actually need to be publishing this report these reports

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Speaker 1: more frequently. Given our understanding is improving more quickly.

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Speaker 2: Well, ideally, I think it would be wonderful if we

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Speaker 2: could produce reports more quickly, But the authority of IPCC

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Speaker 2: actually comes from the rigor of the review processes that

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Speaker 2: we go through, and it is not really possible to

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Speaker 2: imagine getting a report completed from the point the governments

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Speaker 2: decide to produce one till the final approval of less

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Speaker 2: than about three to four years for doing it, because

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Speaker 2: we have to have a scoping meeting the governments and

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Speaker 2: I need to sign off the scope, and only then

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Speaker 2: can we even start selecting authors who need to be

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Speaker 2: nominated by governments and observers. And we go through two

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Speaker 2: external drafts, a so called first order draft for experts,

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Speaker 2: a second order draft for experts and governments, and the

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Speaker 2: summary for policymakers then goes out once again to governments,

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Speaker 2: even before we go to that crucial approval session where

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Speaker 2: we crawl through the summary word for word, line line

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Speaker 2: for line, and by the time you add up all

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Speaker 2: the gaps and the time and take account of the

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Speaker 2: time that our authors need because they're all volunteers taking

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Speaker 2: time out of their day jobs, that's the answer. So

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Speaker 2: you couldn't do it more quickly unless you were able

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Speaker 2: to you were willing to compromise on some of the

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Speaker 2: rigor of the reports. So I think for me, we've

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Speaker 2: given our unique status. I don't see the prospect of

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Speaker 2: speeding it up hugely.

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Speaker 1: But there's a risk of missing major moments because this

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Speaker 1: new IBC support will come into twenty eight and onwards,

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Speaker 1: it will take a while because it takes about fifteen

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Speaker 1: to eighteen months to publish the entire thing. The next

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Speaker 1: global stock take, which happens as part of the United

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Speaker 1: Nations Cup process, is supposed to happen in twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: and it only happens every five years, and that stock

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Speaker 1: take then feeds into the climate goals that government set

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Speaker 1: in the future. So we currently got twenty thirty five

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Speaker 1: goals last year that were said because of the previous

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Speaker 1: stock tag that happened in twenty twenty three. So now

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Speaker 1: that air sim is not going to come in that cycle,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to feed into policymaker's decisions. Isn't that

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Speaker 1: a lost opportunity for the IPCC to inform policymakers with

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Speaker 1: the latest science.

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Speaker 2: Right, You're touching on one of the most tricky issues

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Speaker 2: that we have faced in the seventh cycle, which is

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Speaker 2: the timing of the production of the reports, and some

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Speaker 2: of our governments would attach a priority to completing the

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Speaker 2: work in time for the conclusion of the second Global

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Speaker 2: stock take. Others are emphasizing other issues, like, for example,

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Speaker 2: the time it takes for authors from developing countries to

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Speaker 2: publish literature that can be assessed by IPCC. So there

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Speaker 2: are differences of view. So just where we're the reports

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Speaker 2: will certainly under any scenario start to come out in

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Speaker 2: the middle of twenty twenty eight, so at least some

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Speaker 2: of the output will be there in time for the

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Speaker 2: conclusion of the second Global stock Take. The other ones

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Speaker 2: we don't know about because our governments have yet to decide.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just the humble chair of IPCC. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not directing the thing from the top. The government

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Speaker 2: is an intergovernmental panel. It's the governments who need to decide,

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Speaker 2: and they have yet to decide on the timeline. So

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Speaker 2: we wait and see. But at least some of the

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Speaker 2: output I think will be available. Worthwhile also saying that

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Speaker 2: the second Global stock take under the Paris Agreement is

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Speaker 2: not the only event that is taking place during this decade.

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Speaker 2: Because there will be another periodic review under the Convention

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Speaker 2: itself of the long term goal of the Convention in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty nine, and we would expect, regardless of the scenario,

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Speaker 2: the output to be available for that particular point.

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Speaker 1: After the break. How much does it matter that the

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Speaker 1: US has been drawn from the IPCC. If you have

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Speaker 1: thoughts on the episode, write to us at zero port

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. And if you've got a moment,

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Speaker 1: please write us a review on Apple podcast, Spotify, and YouTube,

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Speaker 1: where you can find our archive of over one hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventy episodes. Let's come to the politics, because politics

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Speaker 1: does affect you in indirect ways, if not direct ways.

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Speaker 1: The US has been drawn from the IPCC. How does

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Speaker 1: that affect US scientist's contribution to the IPCC.

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Speaker 2: Well, even though the US has informed us that will

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Speaker 2: not participate. Now, just to say, IPCC does not have

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Speaker 2: a membership list. Its rules say that any government that

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Speaker 2: as a member of the UN or the World Meteorological

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Speaker 2: Organization can participate. So some countries may choose not to participate.

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Speaker 2: And you know that's the way it is. In terms

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Speaker 2: of people who are contributing to the cycle. We have

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Speaker 2: around fifty US scientists who are involved in the seventh

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Speaker 2: Assessment Report, and these were nominated by observer organizations and

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Speaker 2: their travel and subsistence is being funded by philanthropic bodies.

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Speaker 2: So that's where we are, and we still have US

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Speaker 2: science represented in the in the reports.

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Speaker 1: But that's a fraction of the number of US scientists

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Speaker 1: that would have participated in R six.

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Speaker 2: I think I would describe it as bigger than just

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Speaker 2: a fraction, because that makes it sound like a very

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Speaker 2: small number. It is a substantial proportion, let me feel

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Speaker 2: it that way, of the number who participated in AR six.

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Speaker 1: Right, So the government funding does affect how many scientists

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Speaker 1: can participate, but there are some scientists who are still

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Speaker 1: participating as a result of support from other places. Historically,

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Speaker 1: the US has produced not just the most amount of emissions,

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Speaker 1: which is true it is the second largest emitter, but

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Speaker 1: historically the biggest emeter. It has also made the biggest

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Speaker 1: contribution in just the volume of science that has fed

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Speaker 1: into IPCC reports. That has been changing over the years.

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Speaker 1: Other countries have started to do more science, especially China.

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Speaker 1: Do you think the withdrawal of the IPCC hurts less

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Speaker 1: now than say, if it had happened in the nineteen nineties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's the case. I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: look at the volume of published literature on climate change,

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Speaker 2: the startling part for me. I mean, you know, we've

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Speaker 2: already said it's doubled every seven year ten ten percent

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Speaker 2: growth rate on the US contribution has also increased in

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Speaker 2: absolute terms, but it's been declining in relative terms because

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Speaker 2: there's been faster growth mainly from two places from China,

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Speaker 2: as you've mentioned, but also the European Union through the

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Speaker 2: Horizon programs, has made a big difference in terms of

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Speaker 2: the footprint. So in terms of published papers, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're right, it has less of an impact. It's obviously

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Speaker 2: if that were to disappear, you know, the richness of

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Speaker 2: the literature would be diminished, but it wouldn't be the

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Speaker 2: end of the story. There would still be things to assess.

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Speaker 1: Well, maybe one future question first, then, because institutions like ENCAR,

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Speaker 1: the National Center for Atmospheric Research, the Renewable Energy Laboratory, NREL, NASA,

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Speaker 1: they're all facing under this current Trump administration a huge

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Speaker 1: number of cuts that may not affect AR seven because

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Speaker 1: a lot of the science is done. But how do

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Speaker 1: you think it affects future assessments.

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Speaker 2: Well, the very short answer to that is that we

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Speaker 2: don't know, because we haven't done the assessment yet, and

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Speaker 2: it's up to the authors to assess the available literature. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: it's disappointing if the richness of the underlying scientific literature

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Speaker 2: is diminished. But as we've seen already in the cycle,

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Speaker 2: you know, IPCC is resilient. You know, it continues to operate.

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Speaker 2: The plenary sessions are taking place, the assessment activities have

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Speaker 2: started up. We will have the first report of the cycle,

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Speaker 2: the Special Report and Climate Change in Cities will be

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Speaker 2: out by March twenty twenty seven. So the process is working.

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Speaker 1: If we look at the fact that the US, as

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Speaker 1: the second largest economy historical contributor to science and to emissions,

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Speaker 1: is not going to be part of signing off on

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Speaker 1: the summary for policy makers, do you think that reduces

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Speaker 1: the legitimacy of the ip ACC report and the work

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Speaker 1: you do.

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Speaker 2: When we get to a final approval session, we have

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Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety five countries entitled to participate, and

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Speaker 2: typically I don't know, we have maybe one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty of them in the room. So at any point

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Speaker 2: there are seventy of those countries that could participate.

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Speaker 1: Not there.

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Speaker 2: The country we're mentioning is one of them, but it's

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Speaker 2: not the only one.

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Speaker 1: Now, since the Paris Agreement was signed, we have these

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Speaker 1: synthesis reports that are published every year under the UN

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Speaker 1: auspices before going into a cop meeting, and we have

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Speaker 1: seen that almost without fail, every year, the projected temperature

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Speaker 1: on current trajectory of emissions has been falling, so starting

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Speaker 1: from very close to four degrees celsius to the latest

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Speaker 1: saying maybe two point five degrees celsius. As part of

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Speaker 1: the work that you do under the IPCC, you have

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Speaker 1: all these scenarios that allow you to create these temperature projections,

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Speaker 1: but you also take into consideration the policies that governments

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Speaker 1: are putting in place. We are seeing a reversal on

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Speaker 1: climate policies in many places, not just the US. There

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Speaker 1: are some places here in Europe, some of the developing

438
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: countries are slowing down. Do you think that we might

439
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: see a reversal in this trend, that maybe future assessments

440
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: will start to push us closer to three degrees celsius again.

441
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: That's something that we, you know, we need to look

442
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: at in the next cycle. I mean just a flag.

443
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 2: IPCC does not have any scenarios. We assess scenarios that people,

444
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: the scientists outside IPCC produce, so we reliant on the

445
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 2: range that they come up with. But again you refer

446
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: to the UN synthesis reports. I presume the emissions Gap

447
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: report and the Adaptation Gap report that the UN Environment

448
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: Program producers aren't. They used methodologies that were embedded in

449
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: the previous IPCC reports, so they're using the same methods

450
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: effectively with new data and the numbers that I have

451
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: in my head, if we carry on with current policies,

452
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: we will be about three degrees warming by the end

453
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: of the century. But if we implemented all of the

454
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: nationally determined contributions, depending on whether you take the conditional

455
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,959
Speaker 2: or unconditional elements, you're down to two point two to

456
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: two point five degrees. The future policy is somewhere in

457
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: the band between that two to two point five and three.

458
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: That's probably where the real world will will end up,

459
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: And obviously the decisions that are taken or are not

460
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: taken in the next few years will influence where we are.

461
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: You gave a future warming range based on whatever policy

462
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: makers decide right now between two point five and three

463
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,959
Speaker 1: degrees celsius. Just to be clear, that is still a

464
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: pretty bad world, right it is.

465
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean even two degrees is not a pleasant world.

466
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: I mean, just to say, one of the one of

467
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: the earliest indicators is the loss of warm water corals.

468
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 2: So at one point five degrees we might lose seventy

469
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: five to eighty percent of them. By the time you

470
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: get to two degrees, they're gone basically, So by the

471
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 2: time you get to two degrees is this is really

472
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: really bad effects. And we're looking at other more complicatedly,

473
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: so you know, for example for agricultural productivity or the

474
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: productivity of fisheries for example, as you get to these

475
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: higher warming levels, which we have implications for food prices,

476
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,120
Speaker 2: et cetera, other sustainable development goals around hunger. So it's

477
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: a nasty world.

478
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: Do you wish that the IPCC did anything differently, given

479
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: we're so off track on actually tackling climate change.

480
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: I don't think the gap lies and the science. I

481
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: think the gap lies in the action. You know, you

482
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 2: may want to challenge me on it, but I think

483
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: we've done our bit on getting the message across and

484
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: stating it quite clearly, and the fact that we are

485
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: quoted by some many government people, for me, is a

486
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: signal that we have been noticed. The fact that we'd

487
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: create so much attention in the social media on the

488
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: media as another indicator. So I think we're I mean,

489
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: there are obviously things we can do better, and we

490
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: constantly search our souls as it were. But if you

491
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: look at it, I mean, I think the bucket is

492
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 2: well over half fool in terms of the communication.

493
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: Another aspect of the work that you do is that

494
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: it is informed by policy. Right, the Paris Agreement put

495
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: in this goal for one point five degrees celsius, which

496
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: wasn't there when the IPCC was created, And then the

497
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: government's asked the IPCC to produce a report saying, okay,

498
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: now we have this goal. What must the world do

499
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: to meet the one point five degrees celsius goal? There

500
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: is now growing understanding among scientists that maybe we are

501
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: going to go beyond one point five degrees celsius. You know,

502
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: overshoot is now almost certain. What does that mean for

503
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: the temperature target under the Paris Agreement? If we do overshoot,

504
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,719
Speaker 1: should that target not be in the Paris agreement.

505
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so just on the one point five degrees and

506
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 2: the role of science and the role of politics. There

507
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: has been an iteration, as it were, between IPCC and

508
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: the unf tripleC process because the fifth assessment cycle that

509
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 2: reported in twenty fourteen, the conclusions were deriving from that.

510
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: They are the ones that flagged up. There was a

511
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: significant difference in the level of impacts at one point

512
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: five degrees compared with two degrees, which had been the previous,

513
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: previous kind of benchmark, and it was that that inspired

514
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: the governments then to invite IPCC to come up with

515
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: a new report that articulated more clearly what the implications

516
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 2: of one point five degrees. Now on the question of

517
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: whether you need a new temperature target, that's for politicians

518
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: to decide. I mean, we have clearly indicated the difference

519
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 2: between one point five and two degrees in terms of impacts,

520
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: and we will go further into that in the next

521
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: cycle in terms of irreversibility, should we go over one

522
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,239
Speaker 2: point five uncome back again, and we'll also look at

523
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 2: the feasibility of some of the approaches to bringing temperatures

524
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: back down again. But at the end of the day,

525
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: that's up to politicians, so we can tell them all

526
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: we count about the feasibility, the costs, the environmental implications,

527
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: so we can give them that kind of evidence. It's

528
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: up to them to choose.

529
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: You are the chair, and of course you have to

530
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: be pretty diplomatic in how you communicate the work that

531
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: you do, but you're also among the very few people

532
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: in the world who has i would say, a full

533
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: grasp of how climate change is affecting us and what

534
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: we must do to tackle it. And it's been a

535
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: through line through all the IPCC reports that we know

536
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 1: more and more what we must do to tackle this problem.

537
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: So this is just asking you, on a very personal level,

538
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: what is the kind of theory of change you have

539
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: in mind that would enable the world to actually follow

540
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: through on the types of many of options that the

541
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: IPCC provides to policymakers. It requires coordination, it requires agreement.

542
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: What kind of theory of change do you believe in? Personally?

543
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 2: Right just to say, I'm not sure that the phrase

544
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: theory of change actually appears in any IPC. I may

545
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: be wrong on that, but I don't recall it as

546
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: one of the what one of them? Which is a

547
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: very key the key messages. If we break it down

548
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: a little, we can actually say these are the conditions

549
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: that would need to be met in order to move

550
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: forward the enablers for climate action, and one of them

551
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 2: would be about the role of governments and actually came

552
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 2: ironically from one of our finance chapters to say, it's

553
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 2: very difficult to imagine people in the financial sector having

554
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: faith or trust to put their money down on the

555
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: table unless there are very clear messages and signals from

556
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: policy making communities that that's the way you want to go.

557
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 2: So political will and signaling, I think is an incredibly

558
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: important part of it. But we've also gone down into

559
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: really very great detail on the kinds of policies that

560
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: you could be deployed, the kind of policies that have worked,

561
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: and just to say on what works, I mean, there

562
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: was very strong evidence in the last report that even

563
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: if the world has still been warming up and emissions

564
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: are rising, emissions are less than they otherwise would have

565
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: been because of all the policies that have already been

566
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 2: put in place. So the last report identified gigatons of

567
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: avoided greenhouse gas emissions through policy action. So we do

568
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 2: know that things work what they need to do is

569
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: if you want to reduce emissions, is to roll them

570
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: out in a wider range of geographies and make them

571
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: a bit more ambitious. But the kinds of solutions we

572
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: know what they are.

573
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: From your work on sell for emissions which used to

574
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: cause acid rain, and today in most parts of the

575
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: world we don't have acid rain. The solutions were technological

576
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: because you had to create these the sulfurization machines that

577
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 1: were put on in power plants or in industry, and

578
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: you had to create a business model, through either policy

579
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: or other means, to enable the power plants in the

580
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 1: industries to actually deploy these machines. Does that work in

581
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: some way inform how you think about the types of

582
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: solutions that we need.

583
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're recalling all my youthful experiences with sulfur dioxide.

584
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 2: I used to say, I think there are important differences.

585
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: We succeeded with sulfur dioxide because there were technological solutions,

586
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: and also, to be frank we got lucky with the

587
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: mergence of natural gas, which which actually was not expected

588
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: by people earlier on in the period, and it was

589
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: a it was a free ride to get emissions down

590
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: in a sense the differences with climate change is that

591
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: greenhouse gas emissions touch every aspect of society, you know.

592
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: It's like, that's why the climate talks are as difficult

593
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: as trade talks. They just touch absolutely everything. And so

594
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: the solution is not exclusive, does not exclusively lie in

595
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: the technological domain, though technology will be important, it also

596
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 2: alies in patterns of consumption behavior almost way the way

597
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: that we live our lives. And in the last chapter

598
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: in Working Group three on Mitigation, we had a whole

599
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: chapter devoted to consumption and patterns patterns of behavior, in

600
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 2: which we had the very clear message it's not technology,

601
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: it's not people. It's technology and people that interact with

602
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: each other. We need the infrastructure in place, we need

603
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: the technologies available, and needs to be the case that

604
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: people need to make choices in the right direction as well.

605
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: Now you've been involved in climate science in one form

606
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: or the other for forty years, do you ever see us

607
00:35:54,640 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: getting on a path where there is universal acceptance in

608
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: the need for climate action.

609
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 2: I don't pin any hopes on that personally, you know,

610
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: I think it is reasonable to expect and it's coming

611
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: in from all sorts of public opinion. Surveys that the

612
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: majority of people acknowledge climate change and are concerned about it,

613
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 2: and that is potentially enough, you know, for ambitious climate

614
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 2: action to continue.

615
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: On this podcast, we talk a lot about solutions, and

616
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: often the solutions that come up are renewables, our batteries

617
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: or electric cars. So far we didn't bring them up.

618
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: Are there lesser known areas of progress that people should

619
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: be aware of? Now?

620
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: The big change over the debt last decade has absolutely

621
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: been renewable energy and electrification of demand, principally on the

622
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: transport side. Now, just to say that all of these

623
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 2: things will only get you a certain distance in if

624
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: you're going to get to targets like one point five

625
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: or even two degrees, you would need to do other

626
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: things as well. And you know, in some ways the

627
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: challenges of the future are even bigger than the ones

628
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: we faced already for renewable energy and electrification or vehicles,

629
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: because it might involve changes in the way that consumers

630
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: behave what they consume, and it might also involve change

631
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: in land use practices as well, and they're both areas

632
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 2: and where we're looking at billions upon billions of people

633
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: that might be affected there, so I mean what I

634
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: always say about renewable energy. I know it's difficult there

635
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: to put in place a deal for a two gigawater

636
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 2: offshore windsight, but in some ways, ironically it's easier because

637
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 2: a small number of people can sit on a corporate

638
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: board and make one big decision that makes a big difference.

639
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,320
Speaker 2: The future measures are really smaller scale measures that involve millions,

640
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: if not billions of people, and that I think is

641
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 2: where the big challenge lies.

642
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: Let's take cob and capture using storage on which there's

643
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: an ibccrecoming. There was much hope in that technology to

644
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: be deployed and used because technically it can work. It

645
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: needs a business model that needs regulation, but it hasn't

646
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 1: delivered to the extent that models we're hoping it might.

647
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: What lessons can we learn from carbon capture that might

648
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: come up in other technology aspects well.

649
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: I mean, the difference between renewables and carbon culture and

650
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 2: storage is renewable energy can't get cheaper than fossil energy,

651
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: but fossil energy with carbon capture can never be cheaper

652
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 2: than fossil fuel energy on its own, so it's inevitable.

653
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: Renewable energy has now reached a point where it's starting

654
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 2: to roll. It's gathered momentum. It's cheaper than fossil fuel alternatives.

655
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: Carbon cupture and storage can never be cheaper than the

656
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: alternative by definition, so you need much better articulated business

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00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 2: models and policy signals to make carbon culture and storage work.

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00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: And you know, some of the initial attempts were by

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00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 2: carbon capture storage to a specific plant. We've now learned

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00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: that you need to look much more towards clusters bringing

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Speaker 2: things together. So the thinking is advancing, but it's a

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00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: different kind of technology. For renewables, it's not so replicable

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00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 2: because it's often applied to specific sites in specific places

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Speaker 2: with specific characteristics. So it's unlikely that you're going to

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00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: get the same rapid learning rates for ccs that we

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00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: once said for renewables.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Professor's key, Thank you, and thank you for

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Speaker 1: listening to zero. Now for the sound of the week.

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Speaker 1: That is the sound of a European robin singing its

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Speaker 1: spring songs. Spring finally seems to be on its way

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Speaker 1: here in the UK. If you like this episode, please

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Speaker 1: take a moment to read and review the show on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, YouTube and Spotify. This episode was produced by

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Speaker 1: Oscar boyd Our theme music is comp by Wonderly Special

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00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: thanks to Olivia Raudgaard, Eric Rosston, Samarsadi, Laura Milan and

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Speaker 1: Sharan chan i'm Akshatrati bak Soon