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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Is WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: reading your private encrypted messages? This is what US authorities

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Speaker 1: are looking into this week. Now, this comes after a

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Speaker 1: lawsuit filed last week which claims that Meta, the company

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Speaker 1: that owns WhatsApp, can access virtually all of WhatsApp users

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Speaker 1: purportedly private communications. Now, according to the Guardian, the firm

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Speaker 1: that filed the lawsuit against Meta attributes this allegation to

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Speaker 1: unnamed courageous whistleblowers from Australia, Brazil, India, Mexico and South Africa.

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Speaker 1: But Meta Surprise Surprise, is denying the allegations, calling the

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Speaker 1: lawsuits claim categorically false and absurd, and suggesting that the

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Speaker 1: claim was a tactic to support the NSO Group, an

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Speaker 1: Israeli cyber intelligence firm primarily known for its proprietary spyware

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Speaker 1: called Pegasus, which can turn pretty much any smartphone into

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Speaker 1: a surveillance device remotely. It's been used against activists and journalists,

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Speaker 1: and recently lost a lawsuit brought by WhatsApp. So what

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Speaker 1: does all of this mean for you. Well, meta is

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Speaker 1: all about the idea that WhatsApp is a secure, encrypted,

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Speaker 1: private platform, to the point where my friend Annie, one

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Speaker 1: of the hosts of the podcast Stuff Mom Ever told You,

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Speaker 1: saw commercials suggesting that WhatsApp is a safe place to

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Speaker 1: have conversations about topics as sensitive as your reproductive care, which,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, is not something I would recommend anybody do.

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Speaker 1: And right now the Trump administration is using every tool

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Speaker 1: they have to force tech companies to turn over people's

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Speaker 1: personal communications. In fact, just this morning, the Washington Post

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Speaker 1: published an exclusive investigative report about how DHS is using

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Speaker 1: subpoenas to quietly surveil and silence their political enemies. Means

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Speaker 1: that protecting your digital privacy is more important than ever,

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Speaker 1: not just for you, but anyone in your network who

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Speaker 1: might be more vulnerable than you are. Your friend who

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Speaker 1: overstayed their visa, your cousin who got an add of

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Speaker 1: date abortion. Their safety depends on you. I broke down

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Speaker 1: all of this earlier this winter with my friend Samantha

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Speaker 1: and Annie over at the podcast stuff Mom Never Told You.

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Speaker 2: I feel a little bit guilty about this one, Bridget,

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Speaker 2: because it was a big topic that I was like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I would really love to discuss this,

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Speaker 2: and it's just a huge, spiraling thing, complicated, but I

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Speaker 2: really appreciate you bringing it, and I think it's really

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Speaker 2: important and I'm excited to talk about it and to

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Speaker 2: learn more. So what are we discussing today?

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Speaker 1: Today? We are diving into the wide world of privacy,

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Speaker 1: specifically whether or not messaging apps like WhatsApp actually are private.

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Speaker 1: And I know I can already hear somebody in their

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Speaker 1: car or washing their dishes right now thinking snooze. Privacy

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me. I don't break the law,

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Speaker 1: I have nothing to hide. Whatever they have on me,

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Speaker 1: they already have it. Who cares? That is actually a

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Speaker 1: very common attitude called privacy nihilism, where you just are like,

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Speaker 1: the government has all that they're going to have on me,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. And honestly, I get it. Most of

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Speaker 1: us probably don't really think twice before you hit send

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Speaker 1: on a message, right, but what is hitting sen could

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Speaker 1: put you at risk? And the truth is, in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, it literally can. Whether you're texting about abortion

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Speaker 1: or a protest or whatever, your messages could be watched, blagged,

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Speaker 1: or even used against you, privacy isn't just for people

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Speaker 1: with something to hide, It is for people with something

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Speaker 1: to lose. And right now in twenty twenty five, given

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Speaker 1: everything that is going on, that is all of us.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and we're going to get into this more. But

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Speaker 2: it seemed that companies at least have tapped into this,

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Speaker 2: this worry, this concern, and they're competing with each other

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Speaker 2: in ad campaigns.

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Speaker 1: Well, Annie, you sent me this ad from WhatsApp that,

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Speaker 1: in my opinion, heavily implied that WhatsApp is meant to

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Speaker 1: be like a private, secure messaging platform and that one

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Speaker 1: could even trust it for a private conversation about healthcare,

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Speaker 1: like maybe if one was trying to pursue an abortion,

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Speaker 1: this would be a platform that you could do that securely.

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Speaker 1: You were also telling me about another ad from Apple

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Speaker 1: where it was like camera birds being launched at people

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Speaker 1: or something.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that ad is very frightening everyone. It reminds

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Speaker 2: me of the Black Mirror episode with like the robot dogs.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, army robot dog. That's like like it's like

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Speaker 1: the post apocalyptic army robot killer dog. Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but there's just these like cameras that have bird

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Speaker 2: wings and they have this screeching sound they make, and

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Speaker 2: they fly after people on the street who are looking

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Speaker 2: at their phone, implying that like they're watching you if

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Speaker 2: you're on your phone or on your laptop, and they're

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Speaker 2: like crash into windows and this is a really piercing sound.

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Speaker 2: It's really disturbing. And then it's an ad for Safari

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Speaker 2: that's saying, like, other browsers watch you, Safari doesn't.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, they got their finger on the pulse, and the

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Speaker 1: pulse of the moment is concern about our vast surveillance state.

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Speaker 1: That much is clear. I think people are worried about it,

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Speaker 1: and these I think these companies are like, oh, let's

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Speaker 1: tap into people's understandable concern about the surveillance state right now.

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Speaker 2: It's so odd, though, because like when I sent you

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Speaker 2: that the WhatsApp campaign, it's it's strange to me in

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Speaker 2: a way that we're living in such a dystopian world

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Speaker 2: where there are ads that are like, you don't want

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Speaker 2: anyone to know about your medical you don't want this

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Speaker 2: vibe of overall it's probably not safe for people to

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Speaker 2: know about these things. I don't know which is true,

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Speaker 2: it's absolutely true, but it's strange that it's in an

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Speaker 2: ad campaign.

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Speaker 1: It's weird to get reminded of it while you're watching

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Speaker 1: Bob's Burgers. Like, I totally understand the like it does

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Speaker 1: feel rather dystopy, and I totally get it. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: I should say right off the top that I'm not

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Speaker 1: like an online privacy expert. I don't work in it.

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Speaker 1: I would more call myself a privacy enthusiast. One of

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Speaker 1: the projects that I work on, in addition to my

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Speaker 1: own podcast or own Our Girls on the Internet, is

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Speaker 1: a podcast that I make with the Mozilla Foundations, the

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Speaker 1: makers of the browser Firefox, called IRL, and it's a

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Speaker 1: podcast all about technology, AI, ethics, and of course privacy.

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Speaker 1: We actually just launched our brand new season a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, so folks should check it out. But what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about the show, I think, is that we're really

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Speaker 1: trying to make these conversations that might feel wonky or

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Speaker 1: inaccessible accessible for everybody. And I think that it's important

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Speaker 1: for folks like me, who aren't necessarily privacy experts or

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Speaker 1: don't work in it, to have a sense of the

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Speaker 1: privacy of the technology and the platforms that we do

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Speaker 1: use every day, Like we shouldn't treat those as conversations

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Speaker 1: that are just for experts, and especially in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: five when as we were just discussing the vibes it's

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Speaker 1: giving nineteen eighty four. At times, it's giving dystopian, it's giving,

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Speaker 1: you know, something out of a scary novel, only it's real.

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Speaker 1: That's I mean, I don't know if that's how you

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Speaker 1: all are feeling, but that's how I'm feeling. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: privacy and the privacy around the apps that we use

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Speaker 1: every single day becomes even more important.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I know we're going to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: but we've seen instances of these apps turning over data

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Speaker 2: that people thought was private. We'ren't thinking that it was

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Speaker 2: going to be shared in this way. So, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I have to say, WhatsApp is a app that I

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Speaker 2: only have experienced generally with my international friends, but I

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Speaker 2: did always get this vibe that it was more secure

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Speaker 2: thame other other apps. So when I saw this ad campaign,

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Speaker 2: what set me off was not WhatsApp. It's when I

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Speaker 2: saw meta at.

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Speaker 1: The bottom of yeah, and I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, okay, wait, now I have a lot of concerns.

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Speaker 2: Now I have a lot of concerns. So yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: what's going on with WhatsApp here.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into it. For folks who maybe don't

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Speaker 1: know about WhatsApp, it is a free global messaging platform

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Speaker 1: that was losted in two thousand and nine, and it

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Speaker 1: allows folks to send texts, voice messages, video messages, make

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Speaker 1: voice and video calls, share images, documents, user locations, and

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Speaker 1: other content. It has over two billion billion with a

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Speaker 1: B users. There are like eight billion people on planet Earth,

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Speaker 1: so like, that is a lot of users. And in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen it became the number one messaging platform in

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Speaker 1: the world. And Annie, you were just talking about how

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Speaker 1: you associate it with like international folks, and that is

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Speaker 1: absolutely true because it is particularly important for global communication.

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Speaker 1: If you have aunties or cousins in another country, odds

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Speaker 1: are you've probably used WhatsApp to stay in touch. And

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Speaker 1: by twenty sixteen, it was the primary means of internet

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Speaker 1: communication and regions including the Americas, the Indian subcontinent, and

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Speaker 1: large parts of Europe and Africa. So yeah, it is

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Speaker 1: a very very popular messaging platform. In twenty fourteen, it

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Speaker 1: was bought by Meta, the company that runs Facebook, but

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Speaker 1: back then it was still just called Facebook. Listeners have

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Speaker 1: rightly called me out for sometimes mixing up those two names.

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Speaker 1: Facebook was Facebook in twenty fourteen, they changed their name

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Speaker 1: to Meta to sort of avoid some scandals. But Facebook

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Speaker 1: and Meta for the most part, or like you can

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Speaker 1: think of them as interchangeable for the most part. And

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Speaker 1: so they bought WhatsApp in twenty fourteen. And that means

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Speaker 1: that like the same way that for me, getting online

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid meant America Online, like America

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Speaker 1: Online functionally was the Internet for me, Facebook is essentially

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Speaker 1: the Internet for a whole a whole big swatch of

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Speaker 1: people all over the world, right, And this is all

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Speaker 1: controlled by one person and one company, Mark Zuckerberg. And

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Speaker 1: so really think about that, this one private company basically

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Speaker 1: has total control of the main method of how people

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Speaker 1: get information and communicate with each other. So that gives him, specifically,

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Speaker 1: like an incredible amount of power, power that I would

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Speaker 1: argue has not always been used ethically or responsibly and

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Speaker 1: not always done in a way that keeps what's best

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Speaker 1: for people at the forefront. So if you're asking the

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Speaker 1: big question of like whether or not you would trust

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp run by Meta at their word, that they are private.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it really comes down to the fact, like

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Speaker 1: do you trust Facebook, do you trust Mark Zuckerberg, Because

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Speaker 1: that's really what it comes down to. How Facebook and

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg define what privacy is, like what is private and

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Speaker 1: what is what is not private, and like what that means.

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Speaker 1: And so this is where it gets a little bit confusing.

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp's messages are and to ed encrypted by default, so

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Speaker 1: you don't have to turn anything on to message in

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Speaker 1: that way, both for messages and for calls. And bottom

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Speaker 1: line is like that is very good for privacy. So

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear that I'm not saying that

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp specifically is bad for privacy. However, the way that

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Speaker 1: Meta operates as a company is what, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: makes things a little bit murky. Mozilla's privacy not included.

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Speaker 1: Blog put it like this, WhatsApp is owned by Facebook,

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Speaker 1: which means Facebook can access some data WhatsApp collects on

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Speaker 1: you for specified purposes, which may be bad for privacy.

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Speaker 1: So this means WhatsApp might be collecting data on you

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Speaker 1: when you use it, and we actually sort of know

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Speaker 1: this is the case. As of September twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: it is known that WhatsApp makes extensive use of outside

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Speaker 1: contractors and AI systems to examine certain messages, images and

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Speaker 1: videos that have been flagged by users as possibly abusive,

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Speaker 1: and it turns over to law enforcement metadata, including critical

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Speaker 1: account and location information. So again it really comes down

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Speaker 1: to whether or not you consider that to be private.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, given like a lot of other news

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Speaker 2: that's happened with Meta and Mark Zuckerberg, that just reverses

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Speaker 2: everything that they said they were going to do. So

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Speaker 2: it's also I feel an extension of that is do

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Speaker 2: I believe they're actually going to stick with this thing?

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Speaker 2: Are they just going to change it?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's reasonable to look at how

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Speaker 1: companies historically have moved when they say things. When they

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Speaker 1: say one thing and then do the opposite, I think

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Speaker 1: all of that plays into the question of, like whether

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Speaker 1: or not you're comfortable with them having information about you

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Speaker 1: that kept the actually wind you in jail. This is

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Speaker 1: not a hypothetical. We'll talk more about this in a moment,

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Speaker 1: but like that has happened. Conversations people had on Facebook

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Speaker 1: platforms have led to them being in prison. So like

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Speaker 1: that's a in my book, that's like a you're you're

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Speaker 1: giving quite a bit of trust to these platforms. And

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Speaker 1: you know, as I said, Meta owns Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram

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Speaker 1: and also works with a sprawling network of third parties

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Speaker 1: and contractors, sometimes in like very opaque ways. And so

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Speaker 1: my sense is that Meta is like, oh, well, WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: itself is encrypted, so that means it's private, and then

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Speaker 1: conveniently leave out that users who are concerned about their

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Speaker 1: privacy might also be concerned about how and what data

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Speaker 1: is then being shared with third parties. Like I think

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Speaker 1: that Facebook is like, well, we're encrypted, so that's private,

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Speaker 1: and how Facebook and other companies access data, it's still private.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the that's their their their play there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it does very like I don't know, kind

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Speaker 2: of shuffling at like even going back to that ad,

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Speaker 2: the Meta symbols very small and that AD, I have

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Speaker 2: to say, I think they were like, we know people

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Speaker 2: know that we've gone through these scandals, but also kind

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Speaker 2: of shuffling it off to the user of you should

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Speaker 2: figure out this was on you. If you were worried

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Speaker 2: about privacy, then I don't know why you didn't take

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Speaker 2: whatever step.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I remember when WhatsApp was bought out, and everybody was

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Speaker 4: really upset because I think at that point a lot

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Speaker 4: of protests and like a lot of gatherings had happened

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Speaker 4: through different messengers like what'sapp because it were supposed to

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Speaker 4: be encrypted. And then at Facebook bottom out and everybody

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Speaker 4: lost it. I remember people talking about what to do next,

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Speaker 4: and that's when Signal kind of got its big boost

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Speaker 4: if I remember correctly. I mean, they've always been pretty big,

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Speaker 4: but it got the bigger boosts because of WhatsApp. It

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Speaker 4: eventually became known as now it can be Facebook, and

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Speaker 4: then they were real quiet about it. They made sure

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Speaker 4: not to change the brand or the logo, and then

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Speaker 4: they were just I think, really hoping people would forget

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Speaker 4: who owned WhatsApp. And I feel like the same way

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Speaker 4: like you were talking about, when people start clicking on

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Speaker 4: doing the messengers and you get the little you have

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Speaker 4: to read this, this is our terms of service, and

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Speaker 4: no one reads that. Let's look at real honest, it's

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Speaker 4: hard to even decipher. I actually had a similar incident

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Speaker 4: with my loans and when everything was popping off about

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Speaker 4: doge or doge uh doing those weird things, and looking

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Speaker 4: at the loans and everybody's coming out with a that's illegal.

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Speaker 4: Y'all told us if it gets breached by organizations like this,

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Speaker 4: then our loans has to be forgiven. My specific loan

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Speaker 4: site came back with a whole agreement that it tells

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Speaker 4: me by the way a third party can get access

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Speaker 4: if given permission by blah blah blah. If you agree

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Speaker 4: to this, you can log in. If you don't, you

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Speaker 4: can't log in period.

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Speaker 1: What like, let's like be so for real, why would

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Speaker 1: you have like read with a fun First of all,

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Speaker 1: you're not an attorney, you're not a lawyer, you're not

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Speaker 1: a contract expert. You don't have all day to read

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Speaker 1: sometimes what it's like thirty pages of fine print. Like

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Speaker 1: literally there are artists and activists who have printed out

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Speaker 1: the terms of service that you have to like, you know,

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Speaker 1: agree to and it'll be pages and pages and pages long.

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Speaker 1: And that's not a reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect

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Speaker 1: you to be able to read and understand all of

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Speaker 1: that just to get information about your loone. So like,

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Speaker 1: let's be let's like be for real.

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Speaker 4: They're literally holding your stuff hus hostage. I feel like

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Speaker 4: that's also I feel like this was a thing with Facebook,

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Speaker 4: especially when they started changing terms and like, yeah, we

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Speaker 4: have if you want to log in, you can, but

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Speaker 4: you have to give us access to your computer, your information.

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Speaker 4: We have we have ownership of all your pictures that

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Speaker 4: you're posting, Like, I feel like they were kind of

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Speaker 4: the beginning of that as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's so funny that you say this because in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, and this also came to a head

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Speaker 1: when Apple and Facebook kind of had a dispute about

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Speaker 1: this very thing, right, So Apple made this update to

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Speaker 1: their app store which gave users privacy labels that showed

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Speaker 1: all the different data that that app will link to you.

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Speaker 1: So when what'sapp owned by Meta was in the app store,

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Speaker 1: Apple published this information that's like, oh, here's the data

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Speaker 1: that this app will link to you, and people were like, uh,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute. I was told this was private, Like

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Speaker 1: why are you linking so much data to me? So

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Speaker 1: then after that, WhatsApp updated their privacy policy, which inadvertently

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Speaker 1: highlighted they're years old policy of sharing certain user data

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Speaker 1: like phone numbers with Facebook. So people who were concerned

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Speaker 1: about their privacy obviously freaked out. And then Ireland hit

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp with a record two hundred and sixty six million

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Speaker 1: dollars fine for an alleged lack of transparency over how

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Speaker 1: it shares data with Facebook. So when Apple actually gave

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Speaker 1: users the tool to be like like, oh, I can

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Speaker 1: make an informed decision transparently about how my data is

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Speaker 1: shared on this app, people were like, nah, I don't

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Speaker 1: actually like that. Like it really revealed that perhaps WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: is not as private as some of these ads would

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Speaker 1: have us believe.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And so going back to the ad where I

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Speaker 2: was like, bridget, I would love if we could talk

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Speaker 2: about this. It's a what'sapp ad, and I thought it

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Speaker 2: was about abortion, but I've seen it since and now

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Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, it's just the medical situation. It's never

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Speaker 2: clearly stated it's an abortion or anything like that. But

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Speaker 2: the fact that my mind immediately went to, oh, this

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Speaker 2: is they're talking about abortion or like kind of implying abortion,

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Speaker 2: and I was I recoiled so viscerally because I was

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Speaker 2: just like, no, that's that's terrible, Like we can't be

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Speaker 2: telling people this. And they have like a nice little

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Speaker 2: they show people typing and the all the letters get

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Speaker 2: all mixed up with numbers and stuff like that. So

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Speaker 2: you can't see what they're typing. But I think that

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Speaker 2: goes to show the concerns a lot of us have

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Speaker 2: of this technology that's telling you're like, oh no it's private,

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Speaker 2: you can do this thing that has unfortunately become dangerous

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Speaker 2: are risky for a lot of people. And my mind

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Speaker 2: immediately was like abortion, No, that's bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw the ad to I also. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think they were trying to like you're not seeing things,

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Speaker 1: like they don't come out and say it. But I

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Speaker 1: had the same interpretation of that ad as you did.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's just I think people should just

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Speaker 1: know what's up about what's app like, they should understand

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Speaker 1: like what is actually happening. Because if I were to

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Speaker 1: use any analogy to explain on it, I would say,

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Speaker 1: there's private in that you told your good girlfriend something

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Speaker 1: and she took it to her grave that she never

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Speaker 1: told a soul. And then there's private like that you

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Speaker 1: told your good girlfriend something and she shared it with

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Speaker 1: her husband. And it's one thing. When we're talking about

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Speaker 1: like a juicy secret, it's another and we're talking about

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Speaker 1: something that unfortunately like could get you locked up. And

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Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to abortion, we know that

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Speaker 1: Facebook does have a bit of a track record with this.

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Speaker 1: So Facebook turned over the chads of a mother and

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Speaker 1: daughter to Nebraska police after they were served with a

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Speaker 1: warrant as part of an investigation into an illegal abortion,

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Speaker 1: so they notably, these two women were not using WhatsApp,

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Speaker 1: they were using Facebook Messenger. But I do think it

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Speaker 1: shows some insight into how this all works because, as

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Speaker 1: I said, it's all the same umbrella company Meta. So

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Speaker 1: in June, before Roe was overturned, Facebook gave the police

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Speaker 1: department in Norfolk, Nebraska, access to their private messages that

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Speaker 1: Jessica Burgess and her then seventeen year old daughter shared

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Speaker 1: about how to obtain abortion bills. Burgess ended up getting

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Speaker 1: sentenced to two years in prison and her daughter got

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Speaker 1: ninety days. The platform that they were using to communicate,

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Speaker 1: Facebook Messenger does offer and the ed encryption just like

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp does, meaning that the chats between the two women

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Speaker 1: were only visible to them on their phones and not

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Speaker 1: readable by Facebook or any government entity that makes a

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Speaker 1: legal request to the company. But that option is really

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Speaker 1: only available to folks who are using Facebook Messenger on

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Speaker 1: the app on a mobile device, not like on desktop

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Speaker 1: or on a laptop or something, and the messages are

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Speaker 1: only encrypted after users selects the option to mark those

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Speaker 1: chats as secret. So you can see how that's less

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Speaker 1: secure than WhatsApp that has that as a default setting,

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Speaker 1: if you have to go in and click secret on

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Speaker 1: mobile to get that end to en encryption. And what's

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Speaker 1: worse is that Facebook just immediately complied by giving these

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Speaker 1: chats over to the police, which they really don't have

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Speaker 1: to do. Legal experts told The Guardian that Facebook could

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Speaker 1: have thought the warrant in court in their other instances

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Speaker 1: where tech companies have refused to comply with government demands.

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Speaker 1: Apple refused to comply with federal law enforcement's request to

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Speaker 1: break into an iPhone involving the San Bernardino shooting back

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen, and Facebook itself successfully refused to comply

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Speaker 1: with a wire tapping request for messenger calls back in

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Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. So they don't have to give this information

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Speaker 1: over to police, but they do, and they're able to

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Speaker 1: have it.

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Speaker 2: And that's that's the frightening thing. Because we use, all

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Speaker 2: of us use this stuff in some way or another,

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Speaker 2: maybe not Facebook Messenger or maybe not what'sapp, but it's

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Speaker 2: just a concern with all of these platforms of you

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Speaker 2: know what, I thought this was a something that was private. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to jail, or it's been turned over.

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Speaker 4: We can talk about the fact that they have been

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Speaker 4: hacked so many What my WhatsApp has been hacked so

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Speaker 4: many times. My messenger has been hacked so much. I

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Speaker 4: was like, as this, I'm not doing this anymore, and

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Speaker 4: I completely refuse to use it except anytime anyone sends

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Speaker 4: me a message, whether it's my partner or someone.

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Speaker 1: You have to download it.

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Speaker 4: If you're not on the laptop, and even on the laptop,

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Speaker 4: you can't get it unless you do. You download the

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Speaker 4: app and get another code, which is like, what you're

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Speaker 4: making me do this?

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Speaker 1: So I actually included all the different instances of WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: being hacked. There are many, there's a there's many, many

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Speaker 1: and many. At the last minute, I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: hacking is different than I again, it's not different than privacy.

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Speaker 1: I made a game day decision to be like, let's

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Speaker 1: let's exclude hacking from the conversation. But I won't like you,

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Speaker 1: what's that been getting hacked? Like it's a real thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, if they want to say, be you know,

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Speaker 4: like it's secure and private and all these things, but

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Speaker 4: like one goes in hand in hand. How'm I gonna

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Speaker 4: trust you if every other day I get a message

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Speaker 4: from this person that's saying, hey, did you send me

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Speaker 4: these things? Just because I opened an app? And it

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Speaker 4: turns out that someone has hacked into my account, Like, obviously,

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Speaker 4: if you can't even get like the security to keep

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Speaker 4: my stuff okay, how do you have the ability to

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Speaker 4: keep it private?

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Speaker 1: Exactly? Just and just to be super clear, even if

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Speaker 1: WhatsApp their encryption means that they cannot hand the content

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Speaker 1: of your messages over to the police, if the police

433
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: were trying to build a case against you that relied

434
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: on location data, like say did you travel to xyz

435
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 1: location to obtain an abortion and you live in a

436
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: place where you were not legally permitted to travel across

437
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: state lines to do so, or like were you at

438
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: xyz protest? WhatsApp has metadata, So even if they can't

439
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: give you get the actual messages, they're fine giving metadata,

440
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: which includes things like your location, your contact, who you

441
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: were messaging. They're fine to give that information over and

442
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: so and they have that information. And so it's really

443
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: about understanding privacy in a more holistic way that it's

444
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 1: not just about the content of your messages. It's about

445
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: how secure is its platform, Like is it easily hacked?

446
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 1: Is it hackable? Does it have a history of being hacked?

447
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: You know, what kind of metadata are they collecting? How

448
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: do they use that metadata? It's really about asking all

449
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: of these background questions in addition to just like how

450
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: do they keep my content safe?

451
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: Right? And on top of that, it's also there are

452
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: some things some walls that we have that sort of

453
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: allow for them to be like, yeah, we can track you, right.

454
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I learned this in doing the research for

455
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: this episode that thanks to the Electronic Communications Privacy Act,

456
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: they're basically able to track users without probable cause. In

457
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: January twenty twenty two, an unsealed surveillance application revealed that

458
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: WhatsApp started tracking seven users from China in November twenty

459
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: twenty one, based on a request from USDA investigators. The

460
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: app plected data on who the user's contacted and how

461
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: often and when and how they were using the app.

462
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 1: And this is reportedly not an isolated thing, as federal

463
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: agencies can use the Electronic Communications Privacy Act to covertly

464
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: track user without submitting any probable cause or linking a

465
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: user's number to their identity. And I should just add

466
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: a sort of global note about this whole thing is

467
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: that WhatsApp has two different platforms, regular WhatsApp and then

468
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: WhatsApp Business that's meant for small businesses to communicate. That

469
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: was rolled out in twenty eighteen. Everything that I've said

470
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: so far is really about regular WhatsApp, and that's because

471
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: WhatsApp Business platform is actually less private. So yeah, don't

472
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: use that to talk about anything that was going to go.

473
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 3: Well.

474
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of makes sense because like if

475
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: you're if you're a business entity, you're communicating with so

476
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: many different people in such a different way. But like

477
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: I kind of get where they're coming from there. But

478
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: I just wanted to say that in case someone's like, oh,

479
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 1: I have WhatsApp Business, like, let me use it the

480
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: way that Bridget told me I should be using it.

481
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: Like that's a whole different beast.

482
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

483
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 4: I thought that was gonna be an upgrade, noting downgrade.

484
00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:59,719
Speaker 2: It's not business class.

485
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: No, it's on a plane. It's like better, but if

486
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: it's worse, not this much.

487
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, well, we have been, you know, focusing on

488
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: WhatsApp and surely all of the all of these applications

489
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: we could talk about, but you know, what'sapp in particular,

490
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: how's it doing with privacy? When it comes to privacy.

491
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: So, as I said, ultimately what's app, I would say

492
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: it is like pretty private, like good for privacy. Here's

493
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: how Mozilla's privacy experts put it from a technical perspective. No,

494
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: WhatsApp itself is not really bad for privacy. WhatsApp use

495
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: this strong end to end encryption for all texts, chats,

496
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: and video calls. This is great. WhatsApp cannot read your

497
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: messages or see your call. The flip side of this

498
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: is Facebook, a company infamous for its vast and questionably

499
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: ethical collection of so much data, owns WhatsApp. This means

500
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: that lots of metadata things like purchase history, location, device

501
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 1: idea and more, can be captured and shared with businesses

502
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: advertising on WhatsApp. So people looking for a true privacy

503
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: centered messaging app can find much better options.

504
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 2: Yes, and speaking of.

505
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: Peeing me up beautifully to talk about one of my

506
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: favorite apps, and that is Signal. I am such a

507
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 1: signal fangirl. I have been a fangirl of Signal for

508
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: a very long time. I remember the very first time

509
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: I encountered Signal, I was like trying to date somebody,

510
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: and this person eventually became a very good friend of mine,

511
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: but initially I was like, Oh, what's this platform? And

512
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: I was telling a friend like, oh, I met this

513
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: this person and they didn't give me their number, and

514
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: they were like, here's my signal. And my friend I

515
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: was telling this too, was like, are they an eco terrorist?

516
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,959
Speaker 1: Because back then the only person who you would have

517
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: Signal on their phone was an eco terrorist. Like that

518
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: is how long I've been with Signal. But Signal is amazing.

519
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: It is free. Everyone listening should download Signal right now.

520
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: And it is run by an incredible nonprofit that is

521
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: helmed by this woman, Meredith Whittaker, who is this bad

522
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: woman in technology who does a lot of interesting writing

523
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: on surveillance. I genuinely, like deeply, deeply admire her. If

524
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: you ever want to be really challenged in a good way,

525
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 1: like watch up videos of her lectures. She's just a

526
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: fascinating human being. And so Signal is generally considered to

527
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: be more secure in privates than WhatsApp due to its

528
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: just general commitment to user privacy as a nonprofit and

529
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: its open source nature. While WhatsApp uses end to end encryption,

530
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: Signal goes further by not collecting any user metadata and

531
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: being backed by this nonprofit organization, which really does minimize

532
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: the potential for that kind of data exploitation, right. And so,

533
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: whereas they're both using end to end encryption, WhatsApp does

534
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: collect and share metadata, Signal does not. They don't collect

535
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: any of that. So that is definitely the better platform

536
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: if you're talking about anything at all sensitive And honestly,

537
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: it's just a platform that I use, like as like,

538
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: most of my conversations are happening on Signal.

539
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: I'm gonna start this joke here, unless you're dumb enough

540
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 4: to send messages to the people you're not supposed to

541
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 4: be sending, like, you know, to information to journalists.

542
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: If you're just seeing Pete headsaff, we're talking about you.

543
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: You know what makes me mad about that is that

544
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: that was the probably for a lot of Americans, that

545
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: was probably the first time they had ever heard about Signal,

546
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: and Signal is so awesome, it's so great, they have

547
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: such a great like mission, and it made me sad

548
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: that the first encounter that a lot of people were

549
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: having was with Pete Hegsath like completely misusing it, and

550
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: even in some of the reporting about that, they were

551
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: sort of trying to make it signals like like oh like,

552
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: oh like, what is this shadowy app that they were

553
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: using and how could this happen? And it's like, no,

554
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: Signal didn't do anything wrong.

555
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 4: It was user error, right, Honestly, I was really shocked

556
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 4: that they use such a public like platform that is free.

557
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 4: I'm like, you're a government, don't you have your own

558
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 4: kind of like chat applications that you used within your

559
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: own people Like I don't this. There's a lot I

560
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: have questions about In this moment, I.

561
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: Can answer that question for you. The answer is absolutely,

562
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: the United States government has spends lots and lots and

563
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: lots of money to develop and use super secure messaging apparatus. Yeah,

564
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: Signal is not the use case for this. If you're

565
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: if you're talking about like secret military plans, I do

566
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: do love Like I read the different conversations that were happening.

567
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: I can't remember who it was. It might have been

568
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 1: jad Vance. Don't quote me on that. Who is like

569
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: only responding in thumbs up emojis. It's one of them

570
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: that it's like, just stick a thumbs up there and

571
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: they'll get the gist. Like I don't want to be

572
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: in print on this one, which looking back was probably

573
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: a smart idea. Yeah.

574
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 4: The little level of like comedy here is just like

575
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 4: what is going on, but it feels right. It feels

576
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 4: about right, the disaster and doom and like a comedic

577
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 4: form like yeah, okay, that's where we are.

578
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta laugh to keep from crying. Am I right?

579
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: It's true. I have to admit to you all. I

580
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: wrote in a fan fiction lately. I had a plot

581
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 2: point about this whole thing, because yes, because I'm trying

582
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 2: to figure out how to make something that was incredibly

583
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: stupid happen in the government. And I was like, well,

584
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: it already happened, so I can point to real life

585
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: evidence and be like, you know what I would have

586
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: it was too too stupid. Oh, but it did happen.

587
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 2: So I just wrote it in and it kind of

588
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: saved me a whole headache of figuring out that next.

589
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 4: I think it's true, like all of the things that

590
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 4: they have predicted, this level of stupidity, it's no longer

591
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 4: funny because it's like right on, yeah, like this should not.

592
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: Be this real.

593
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: You know, stuff is bad when like if you were

594
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: writing a fictional work about it and you were be like, oh,

595
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: that's too on the nose, nobody's going to buy that

596
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: from the headlines, you're good.

597
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 4: Well.

598
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: You know one thing.

599
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: That has one of the reasons I really wanted to

600
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: talk about this bridge it is that.

601
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: I was so.

602
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: When I saw that commercial.

603
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: I was so.

604
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,719
Speaker 2: Worried about people believing it, Like you know, like I

605
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 2: was really concerned that people would be like, oh, this

606
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: is a this is a secure interface that I can

607
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: use and getting in trouble or having this really terrible experience.

608
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: And I do know what you were talking about earlier

609
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: that a lot of people do have that sort of

610
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 2: burnout of like, you know what, they already know, they

611
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: already have it, what's even worth trying? But it really

612
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: it really worried me when I saw it, and I

613
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 2: think given the environment we live in now, that it

614
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: is something that we need to talk about and be

615
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 2: aware of and be educated on.

616
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm glad that you're bringing it to the Seminty

617
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: listeners because it is important and it can always be

618
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: really hard to tell marketing from reality, especially with this

619
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: because it is little bit murky. But I guess I

620
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: would just offer, like, the reality is is that we're

621
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: in a world where our rights are being rolled back,

622
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: where protest is criminalized, healthcare is criminalized. In a world

623
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: like that, privacy and security it's not just a tech issue.

624
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: It is a survival issue, and we have to protect

625
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: our data and our conversations the way that we also

626
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: protect each other. I know that someone listening out there

627
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: is like, Bridget you sound paranoid. It is not about

628
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: being paranoid. It's about being prepared and being cognizant of

629
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: like the reality that we are in today. And so

630
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: if using signal over WhatsApp and getting into the habit

631
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: of doing that, if that could potentially save somebody listening

632
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: a whole lot of stress, I want to offer that, like,

633
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: there are small, meaningful changes that we can make to

634
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: keep things more secure and private that don't cost us

635
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: anything that we should be doing. And I honestly think,

636
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: like if you are someone who is I don't even

637
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: know how to put this, Like I am like prepper

638
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: minded a little bit right, Like I'm like, oh, the

639
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: vibes are bad, the vibes are weird. Like, better get prepared.

640
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: I think right now the big thing we should be

641
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 1: preparing for is cyber security, and like like like, I

642
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: think that it's probably more likely that we are going

643
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: to see digital attacks and cyber attacks, probably more so

644
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: than other kinds of things you could be prepping for.

645
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: And so preparing and getting yourself situated for those kinds

646
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: of attacks is easy and free. It doesn't take a lot,

647
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: And so I would say, if you're feeling unnerved and

648
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: uncertain in these times, start there, like that is something

649
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: that you can manage. It does not take a lot

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00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: to get yourself in a good protected place.

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00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: Yes, and you over on your podcast There Are No

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00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 2: Girls on the Internet and other episodes on spinty, You've

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00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: done a lot of a lot of episodes about that,

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00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 2: about how that can look and what you can do.

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00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 2: So thank you as.

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00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: Always, Oh my gosh, thanks for having me, my pleasure.

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00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: And if you want more conversations about tech and privacy,

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00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: check out the newest season of Mozilla's IRL podcast all

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00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: about those very topics.

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00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and thank you. We always love having you on.

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00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for taking this topic. Suggestion but yes, where

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00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: can the good listeners find you?

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00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: You can find me at the IRL podcast, on my

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00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: podcast or girls on the Internet and on Instagram at

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00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: Bridget Marie in DC.

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00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: Yes, well, looking forward to next time Bridget. In the meantime,

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00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: if you would like to contact us listeners, you can.

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00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: You can email us at hello at Stuffomenevertold You dot com.

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00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: You can find us on blue Sky, it Moms a podcast,

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00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told

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00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 2: You for us on YouTube, and we have a book

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00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: you can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as

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00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 2: always too our super producer Christina, Executive Duer, my anti

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00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: contributor Joey, Thank you and thanks to you for listening

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00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: Stuff I Never Told You in spection of my Heart Radio.

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00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check

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00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: out the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts, or if you

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00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows,