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Speaker 1: Chuckie's family lived right behind the bowling Alley on Burns Drip.

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Speaker 1: He'd write his bike to a nearby convenience store all

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Speaker 1: the time to buy kendy. But one February night was different.

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Speaker 1: Sometime when we're moving through a new uh, someone heard

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Speaker 1: a lad pop. This is crime stories, but Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people saw flames. Hookually would be different

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Speaker 1: fing away because they have crowned. Within the next two minutes,

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Speaker 1: Chucky's time to see. They're thankfully community that when communicate

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Speaker 1: at that time, the mode what happened to kipping alt

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Speaker 1: Animal has romot. Hello, you are listening to crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. Also

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Speaker 1: joining is a woman that I have come to not

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Speaker 1: only respect, but to care for very deeply as we

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Speaker 1: both continue our search for justice in the death of

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Speaker 1: her little boy, Chucky Mock. Just imagine this eight pm

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Speaker 1: in the evening your home with your family. You know

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Speaker 1: that moment when you finish supper and you've cleared off

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Speaker 1: the table and you're washing the dishes, and a knock

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Speaker 1: comes at the door, and nothing is ever the same

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Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. With that knock at

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Speaker 1: the door. Everything changes with me is Kathy Miller. Kathy,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Thank you, Nancy, Kathy.

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Speaker 1: I want to go back in time, got to last

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Speaker 1: time that you spoke to your little boy, Chucky Mock

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Speaker 1: who is I've looked at the picture of him and

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Speaker 1: his baseball outfit, I know a thousand times. The last

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Speaker 1: time you spoke to him. It was heavy on your

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Speaker 1: heart because you didn't turn around and look at him.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know why that aspect, that little fact

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Speaker 1: bothers you, but you tell me the story. Well, it

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Speaker 1: was Monday, and Chucky had been sick like all weekend.

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Speaker 1: This was his first day back to school, and we

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Speaker 1: had just finished eating supper. I was, like you said,

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Speaker 1: I was just doing the dishes and he said, Mom,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to run to the grocery store. And I said, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, just be back soon. And I did not

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Speaker 1: turn around and look at him. You were at the kitchen,

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Speaker 1: Saint right, yeah, And I just said go ahead and go. Now,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, I want to I want to clarify something.

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Speaker 1: The grosser two stores you're calling it, um was only

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Speaker 1: what two blocks away? Not even two blocks? I mean

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Speaker 1: you could walk to Giant Foods in about five minutes.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was just like right up the street

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Speaker 1: was catty cornered right, and you just turn you go

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Speaker 1: across the parking lot. It's there is um I've looked

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Speaker 1: at the area many times. There is a thoroughfare where

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Speaker 1: there are store fronts and red lights, and then you

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Speaker 1: go back a block and turn into like a little

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Speaker 1: neighborhood and if you go as the crow flies, you'll

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Speaker 1: cross over and you'll be at the little grocery store

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Speaker 1: in no time at all. So for him to hop

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Speaker 1: on his bike, he could be there in a minute

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Speaker 1: really by on his bike exactly exactly. So you're at

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Speaker 1: the sink. You're at the sink with your back to him.

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Speaker 1: He goes, can I take my bike to get I

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Speaker 1: guess bubblegum or candy? And he did that almost every day.

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Speaker 1: That was his big treat to go yeah, okay, so

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Speaker 1: what happens? And then I'd say go ahead, and you know,

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Speaker 1: before I know it, you know, he's flown out the

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Speaker 1: door on his bike and he's gone, and about I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it was about thirty minutes, maybe not that long.

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Speaker 1: One of the little neighbor girls came to the door

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Speaker 1: and said she saw Chucky and she thinks he's hurt.

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Speaker 1: So I run, just thinking, you know, he's falling off

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Speaker 1: his bike and maybe her broke his arm or something.

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Speaker 1: So me and my husband re run up there. It's

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Speaker 1: just I mean, I can see him from my driveway,

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Speaker 1: and you had your six year old, Chucky's little brother

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Speaker 1: into Greg. Pete had grabbed Greg two, and we were

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Speaker 1: just all running up there. Pete got there before I did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, have you anybody listening, have you ever tried

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Speaker 1: to run with your child into You're dragging them along

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Speaker 1: by the hand. It's hard. I can just imagine you

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Speaker 1: coming out of the kitchen. I was like, yes, and

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Speaker 1: I was just like running in slow motion because I

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Speaker 1: knew it was so much more. Why wait, wait, wait wait,

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Speaker 1: How when did you get that premonition? Pick me up?

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Speaker 1: You leave the house, You've got your six year old

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Speaker 1: Chucky's little brother, and you've got your husband, Chucky stepdad.

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Speaker 1: And what happens? And we're just running up there, and

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Speaker 1: I mean right from the end of our driveway, you

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Speaker 1: can see where he's laying. I mean, we're really that close,

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Speaker 1: and he was just laying there. It was so still,

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Speaker 1: and I knew. I knew. I just knew because he

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Speaker 1: was so still. He was so still, and the closer

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Speaker 1: I got, you could see the blood and it was

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Speaker 1: just And then my husband stopped me before I got

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Speaker 1: Chucky completely and told me that it was Chucky. He

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Speaker 1: was dead. So at a distance, you're going as fast

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Speaker 1: as you can with a six year old boy, inte running,

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Speaker 1: and you see your son, your little boy, lying sprawled

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Speaker 1: out on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot

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Speaker 1: beside his bicycle. I was told later he still was

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Speaker 1: holding a pack of bubble gum in his hand. He

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Speaker 1: had the bubble gum and the cash registry seat still

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Speaker 1: in his hand, so he that's how he knew what

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Speaker 1: time he had left the little grocery store. To this day,

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Speaker 1: Kathy Miller recalls a horrible sense of dread as she

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Speaker 1: ran as fast as she could, that foreboding, that feeling.

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Speaker 1: She was running in slow motion as she sees a

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Speaker 1: crowd of onlookers already congregating, and she sees her son

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Speaker 1: lying on the pavement of a convenience store parking lot.

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Speaker 1: How did you know Chucky was dead? I knew because

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Speaker 1: he was so still, and because by the time my

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Speaker 1: husband had gotten to him, he got to check it

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Speaker 1: before I did. He identified Chucky and he stopped me

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Speaker 1: because he didn't want me to see and he said

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Speaker 1: that it was Chucky and he was dead, and I

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Speaker 1: knew there was so much blood and he was so still.

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Speaker 1: What did you think at that moment? What did you

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Speaker 1: think it happened? I just I just didn't know. I

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Speaker 1: tell you, from the moment he told me Chucky was dead,

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Speaker 1: I kind of went away in my head. I just

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Speaker 1: went away. It was the only why I could handle it.

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Speaker 1: I guess. I don't know to this day, I don't

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Speaker 1: know what really happened to me. But they thought it

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Speaker 1: was a hit and run. And when they turned him over,

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Speaker 1: the bullet had gone to the back of his head

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Speaker 1: and entered and came out his face, the side of

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Speaker 1: his face. So Chucky was shot from behind mm hmm,

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Speaker 1: face of his neck. The um shot severed his brain stem,

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Speaker 1: so they said he died instantly. You know, Cafe, I

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Speaker 1: wonder to this day about what my fiance went through.

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Speaker 1: And he was shot, and I can only pray that

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Speaker 1: he was immediately unconscious. Now, you know, according to the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner. Chucky died instantly. But you have told me

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Speaker 1: in the past that you think of him lying in

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Speaker 1: a parking lot, a dirty parking lot. Did he need you?

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Speaker 1: Did he think of you? Did he call out for you?

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Speaker 1: Does that to this day haunt you? To this very day,

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Speaker 1: that does. My head knows medically that Chucky died instantly.

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Speaker 1: He probably never knew, But my heart says, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's my child. Did he need me and I wasn't there?

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Speaker 1: You know? It was he scared and I wasn't there,

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Speaker 1: And my heart and my head tells me that he

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Speaker 1: he died instantly. He probably never knew, but my heart

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Speaker 1: tells me that I was he scared and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: there to help him. That always will be with me,

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Speaker 1: you know, Kathy. All of these people that have had

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Speaker 1: these near death experiences, they die and they're resuscitated, and

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Speaker 1: they talk about what happened. Sometimes, when I am still

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Speaker 1: beside myself about Keith's murderer or my father just passing away,

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Speaker 1: I will stay up till three and four in the

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Speaker 1: morning listening to those accounts. And they say, if they're

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Speaker 1: to be leave, that you are immediately in another place,

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Speaker 1: that you are immediately outside your body and feeling no

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Speaker 1: pain whatsoever. And I gotta tell you I hold on too,

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Speaker 1: that I really do. So. Even though the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: says he died instantly, as fast as a speeding bullet,

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Speaker 1: you still wonder. Yeah, I do the same thing, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I read all of that, and I read these passages

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Speaker 1: and I know it, and I do know that in

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Speaker 1: my head, but still in your heart. It just you know,

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Speaker 1: it's so hard. It's just so hard, Cathy. When you

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Speaker 1: say you quote went away when your husband told you

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Speaker 1: Chucky was gone, What do you mean? What does that

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Speaker 1: feel like to quote go away? And it's such it's

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Speaker 1: such a strange feeling. And you know, and I think

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Speaker 1: if I if I say it allowed, people will think

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Speaker 1: I'm crazy. But I don't think you're crazy. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's just like I would talk. I could hear myself

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Speaker 1: telling myself in my head. It was just like I

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Speaker 1: was talking to myself saying, you know that to calm down.

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Speaker 1: Are just things too. It's it's so hard to put words,

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Speaker 1: but too, I guess it let me get through what

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Speaker 1: I had to get through without mental mentally breaking down

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Speaker 1: completely and just losing it. It helped me get through this.

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Speaker 1: His the funeral, you know all of that. My mind

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Speaker 1: just told me to do things, and it just sounds.

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Speaker 1: You once told me that you heard a voice in

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Speaker 1: your head saying at the funeral, that's not Chucky. Chucky's

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Speaker 1: not there, Chuck, He's playing in Mississippi right now. He's

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Speaker 1: not even here. And it was your voice in your head.

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Speaker 1: It was my voice in my head. And I put

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Speaker 1: him in places like you know, he'd be in Mississippi

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Speaker 1: because that was his favorite place to go to be

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Speaker 1: with his grandparents. And just to get through going into

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Speaker 1: walking into that funeral home. That's how I got through it.

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Speaker 1: It just said, remember, it's not him, he's in Mississippi,

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Speaker 1: and I got through that night. I want to understand

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Speaker 1: something you're saying. You were telling yourself that as you

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Speaker 1: walked into the funeral home. I had a similar experience.

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Speaker 1: When I went into the funeral home where Keith was

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Speaker 1: at a distance, I saw his coffin and I saw

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Speaker 1: just a portion, a tiny sliver of his face, and

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Speaker 1: immediately my knees buckled and I passed out. I never

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Speaker 1: went further or got closer to his casket, and to

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Speaker 1: this day, I find the smell of um carnations and denauseating.

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Speaker 1: I cannot stay end to smell them. That's why I

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Speaker 1: don't really that's like going into a florist. It's just

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Speaker 1: it over. I hate it. I hate going into a florist.

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Speaker 1: Me too, I just can't hardly stand it. That smell

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Speaker 1: is that it's the smell of a funeral home of

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, you're the first person ever that I have

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Speaker 1: talked to about that end. In my first fiction book,

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Speaker 1: Eleventh Victim, the protagonist can't still the stand the smell

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Speaker 1: of carnations. And that's you know, me writing. I've never

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Speaker 1: mentioned that. I find that so odd that you think

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Speaker 1: that when I smell a carnation or it gives me

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Speaker 1: just chills. It takes me right back to that moment, exactly,

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Speaker 1: right back to all those flowers. It's just it is.

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Speaker 1: I try to avoid florists, isn't you know? It's just

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Speaker 1: that smell. Let me ask you this, when you got

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Speaker 1: through the funeral, when did it hit you, not that

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Speaker 1: just that Chucky is gone. Chucky is dead, but somebody

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Speaker 1: killed him. He didn't die a hit and run, He

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Speaker 1: didn't get sick of the hospital. Someone killed him. When

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Speaker 1: did that really sink in? I guess it really sunk

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Speaker 1: in at the cemetery because I noticed there were police

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Speaker 1: under like undercover policemen there just watching, And I guess

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Speaker 1: that's what I knew, that someone intentionally killed him. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's the funniest things that stick with you. You remember

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Speaker 1: seeing undercover cops at Chucky's cemetery. I remember that, all right.

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Speaker 1: I'm just processing that that. That is the memory, one

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Speaker 1: of the memories you have. What do you you know?

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Speaker 1: Cops tell you this, investigators tell you that. Wouldn't this

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Speaker 1: just tell you this? Kathy? What do you think happened

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Speaker 1: to your boy? Nancy? I have ran so many scenarios

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Speaker 1: and I've heard so much that maybe this happened, and

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Speaker 1: maybe this happened, or it could have happened like this

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Speaker 1: that I just I just I don't know. I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't understand it. I can't make something. It just

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00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. I can't. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: just now we do know this. We know that a

225
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Speaker 1: white vehicle scratched off took off from that parking lot,

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Speaker 1: either at the time of the shooting or shortly after

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Speaker 1: the shooting. I'm talking about minutes after. There are very

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Speaker 1: few facts to go on at the time. The shooting

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00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,600
Speaker 1: witnesses insist Chucky was on his bike, just like he

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00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,760
Speaker 1: told his mom, who was with us today, heading for

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00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 1: gum at the local convenience store. He stopped seemingly to

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Speaker 1: answer questions from a man. The man driving a white

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Speaker 1: Oldsmobile cutlass or Buick. Interesting Kathy, witnesses say, I'm not

234
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 1: sure of their timing, but they seemed to think he

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Speaker 1: spoke to the guy twenty minutes. Is that possible? Was

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Speaker 1: he even gone that long? No, I don't I don't

237
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 1: think you. I don't think it was that long. I

238
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Speaker 1: think it was just a matter of minutes that he

239
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 1: was seeing taught leaning. He was off his bike leaning

240
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:48,520
Speaker 1: talking to this person or person's in this car. Something happened,

241
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 1: He turned quickly to get back on his bike, and

242
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,560
Speaker 1: that's when they shot him at close range in the

243
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Speaker 1: back of the head. So I just feel whoever did

244
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Speaker 1: this on him dead well. I'm wondering if he spoke

245
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,760
Speaker 1: to them that long, did he know them? Was it

246
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,280
Speaker 1: somebody in the neighborhood or somebody in the community. What

247
00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,159
Speaker 1: do you think knowing Chucky he would have to know

248
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: them to have stopped to talk to him, to talk

249
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Speaker 1: like he was like getting off his bike. I feel

250
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 1: he had to know this person. Or what if it

251
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: was somebody trying to lure him into the car and

252
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: he said no and turned around to leave, so we

253
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: know it was we think it was a white male.

254
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 1: Do we think it's a white male, Yes, that's what

255
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 1: we think so far, and a white oldsmobile or cutlass

256
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 1: people in the car. How many to the driver and

257
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,399
Speaker 1: a passenger? Do we know if the passenger was a

258
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: male or a female. I don't know that. Let me

259
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,359
Speaker 1: ask you, when you have gone over the facts in

260
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 1: your head, do you recall police investigating. Did they go

261
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,119
Speaker 1: to every home in the neighborhood. Did they determine whether

262
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,439
Speaker 1: there was a relative staying in the home or a

263
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 1: visitor that could have followed Chucky or seen him there?

264
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: Do you know about that? I was told by the

265
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Speaker 1: investigating officer at the time, the lead investigator, that yes,

266
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: they did do that. The lead investigator that time has passed,

267
00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: so he is dead now, So I don't you know.

268
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Speaker 1: That's what I know from back then. That's what I know.

269
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if there was surveillance video in that

270
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 1: seven eleven was there No, No, there wasn't And what

271
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 1: information we know is just from someone that was in

272
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,679
Speaker 1: a car that passed by and saw Chucky. One of

273
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,440
Speaker 1: his friends was in a car passed by and told

274
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Speaker 1: their dad, there's Chuck. And then they went on home.

275
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 1: They heard what had happened. They went to the police

276
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 1: and gave a composite drawing of what little bit they saw.

277
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,040
Speaker 1: And tell me about the composite drawing. What did it

278
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 1: look like? He had like acne scars. He looked rough,

279
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 1: if you know what I mean, just kind of rough

280
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,119
Speaker 1: and actne scars. That's what I remember seeing. Is this

281
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,679
Speaker 1: the driving driver or the passenger? And you know, I

282
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 1: think it was the driver. Is the I think that's

283
00:19:27,640 --> 00:19:31,440
Speaker 1: who that composite was of the driver. This little boy,

284
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 1: just in the seventh grade, loved pac Man skateboarding. He

285
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 1: played shortstop on his little league baseball team, the Red Legs,

286
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,679
Speaker 1: and he was so proud he had the highest batting

287
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,120
Speaker 1: average on the team. Who would do this, and not

288
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 1: only who would do this, but who could have kept

289
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,439
Speaker 1: it a secret for all of these years? You know, Kathy.

290
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,840
Speaker 1: Another thing you told me was about a stigma attached

291
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,560
Speaker 1: to having a murdered child. How would it be different

292
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: if Chucky had died of an illness or a car accident.

293
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,440
Speaker 1: I how I noticed it is you know, they'll say, well,

294
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,959
Speaker 1: what happened to your child, and always say that he

295
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 1: was murdered. I see this look in people's eyes. It's

296
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 1: just like hm, you know, And I just want to say,

297
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't a bad child. He wasn't a

298
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: kid that was in trouble. You know. He was a

299
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,919
Speaker 1: very good kid. He was well liked. You know, he

300
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,400
Speaker 1: wasn't bad. He wasn't doing anything bad. And it's like

301
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 1: I have to defend him. He had never been in

302
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 1: trouble a day in his life. He made good grades,

303
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,320
Speaker 1: He was home every night for pete sake. He was

304
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 1: just in the seventh grade. He loved pat Man, he

305
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 1: was a star in a baseball team. I want to

306
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 1: say he wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't buying drugs.

307
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: You know, he was just get bubble gum. It was

308
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: in his hand for Pete's sake. You know, Cathy has

309
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: really got me riled up. Is what that woman said

310
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: to you that day. Do you remember the woman you

311
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: told me about yes, what happened? She it was someone

312
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 1: that I had was taking care. I worked at a

313
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 1: doctor's office, and it was someone that a patient. I

314
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,399
Speaker 1: don't know how to say that, you know, without saying

315
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 1: you know who she was. There was a woman that

316
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: came in your office. Yes, and she saw in my office,

317
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,239
Speaker 1: she saw a picture of Chucky and she said, are

318
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,640
Speaker 1: you Chuck's mother? And I said, you know, yes, And

319
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: she must have known about him, and she just said that,

320
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, when parents don't take care of their children,

321
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: God calls them home. Well, when she said that, it

322
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: hits something deep inside me because I always thought, you know,

323
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,439
Speaker 1: if I if I had just watched him, if I

324
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: had just said no, if I had just you know,

325
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go, it really is my fault. Well,

326
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: she hit on all those insecurities, and it took my

327
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: breath and I had to walk out of my office.

328
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: And I was absolutely hysterical because what she said was

329
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 1: something that I had kept close to my heart, and

330
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: for a long time I believed that it was my fault.

331
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: I was the one that said you could go to

332
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: the store. You know, I should have been a better mother.

333
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have let him go. It was all those

334
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: should have two we do to ourselves, And she hit

335
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: on my deepest, darkest secret, and I'll never forget it.

336
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: I'll never forget how she made me feel. People tell

337
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,719
Speaker 1: you all, I've had so many things said to me

338
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: that you know, you think you get hardened to it,

339
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 1: but you really don't, because in the deepest of your

340
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: heart and in your mind, it's what they say, is

341
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: what you have said to yourself. You know, you you

342
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 1: blame yourself. You know I was supposed to protect him

343
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: and I didn't. You mean there have been more people

344
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: than just her. Yeah, you know, I've had It's just

345
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,040
Speaker 1: people just say such awful things like well, you have

346
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: one less room to clean. I've had that said to me. No,

347
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: you did not tell me that. Um, yeah, that was

348
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: that was one that was told to me in the beginning,

349
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: by yes, by someone what do you say, mack See,

350
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: I would be so taken aback, I would not even say.

351
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: I just can't even speak. I just I just can't

352
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: even I just can't even say anything. I don't know

353
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 1: what to say because I, first of all, I just

354
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: can't believe these words came out of someone's mouth. You know,

355
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 1: how do you say? I don't know. I I just

356
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: don't know how people can say such hurtful things to

357
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: someone that is hurting. But people don't know really what

358
00:23:54,320 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: to say to people. Sometimes. After Chucky was killed, you

359
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: could not stand to ride by that store every day

360
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,919
Speaker 1: to live in that house anymore. You moved and you

361
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: took all of Chucky's things very carefully with you to

362
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: your new home. Was there an incident in your home

363
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:25,160
Speaker 1: where all the pictures fell off the wall? Yes, what happened.

364
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: We were we were moving in and I was hanging

365
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: all the pictures and they all fell down. They all

366
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: fell off the wall. Now were any of those pictures

367
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,479
Speaker 1: pictures of Chucky? They were all pictures of Chuck. It

368
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: was just Chuck's pictures that fell. You were hanging up

369
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: Chucky's pictures. You had them all up on the wall,

370
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: all of them with nails. And you walk out of

371
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: the room, and when you walk out of the room,

372
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: you hear a crash and turn around and race back

373
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: in the room. And what did you see when you

374
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: went into the room. They were all on the ground,

375
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: that had all fallen off the wall at once. I

376
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: can't explain it, but they were just all off the wall.

377
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: Was your other son in the room? Did he say

378
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,959
Speaker 1: anything at all? What did he say? Yeah? He we

379
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 1: I guess we have always felt that Chuck was here,

380
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 1: and he just felt like Chuck was here with us.

381
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: And I don't know, Nancy, if I ever told you

382
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: about what happened on the first year anniversary of Chuck's death,

383
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: about the phone call I got, no what happened. I

384
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: answered the phone and it was a woman on the phone,

385
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: let me take you back. I always thought that maybe

386
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: someone had kidnapped Chucky, that that really wasn't Chucky, that

387
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 1: maybe somebody had kidnapped him. And I was waiting for

388
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 1: a phone call that I knew people were going to

389
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: call and ask me for money. That was another way

390
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: that was my mind talking to myself. Well, I got

391
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: this phone call in the first anniversary of his death,

392
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: and this woman said, UM, I have your son. Do

393
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: you want to talk to him? And I said yeah,

394
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: and this little voice said hey mama, and then they

395
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 1: hung up. Oh how awful. And so I went berserk

396
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: because I knew that was Chucky. And I remember calling

397
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: my parents and telling them that we have to get

398
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: all our money together, that they're going to call back

399
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: and ask for money, you know, and then everyone had

400
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: to sit me down and say, oh, how awful, Who

401
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: did that to you? You know? I used to dream

402
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: that Keith, my fiance, it was not dead, he had

403
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: not been murdered, that really he just wanted to start

404
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: a new life, and that many years passed and I

405
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: found out he was somewhere else, or that he was

406
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: disabled from the gunshot, and he didn't want me to know,

407
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: and he had been alive all these years, and I

408
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: could go find him, and I would go find him. Horrible,

409
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: horrible dreams, Nancy. Why do you think we think these things?

410
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: You know, as I think it's the way that maybe

411
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 1: we can just survive this. I don't know. I think

412
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: because I wanted it so much. I wanted him to

413
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: be alive so badly that I would dream that, and

414
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: in that dream I could I think that maybe it

415
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: hadn't all happened. But I'm thinking about who would be

416
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: so cruel as to call you and put a child

417
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: on the phone like that. You know what, just for

418
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: a few moments, I was so happy, you know, that

419
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: he was alive and maybe I was getting him back.

420
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: And then, you know, after I called my husband, he

421
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: was at work. He came home and you know, they

422
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: all had to sit me down and just so it

423
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: just like for that year, it put me back like

424
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: a holt another year, like, Okay, I just heard it

425
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 1: that he's really dead. It was just so much on

426
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: It just was so awful. But just for a moment,

427
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: I can remember thinking, he's true, he is alive, and

428
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 1: but it really wasn't. I knew it. He is alive.

429
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: This was all they're wrong. That wasn't him. I knew, yeah,

430
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: I said, and I kept thinking in my mind was saying.

431
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 1: I tried to tell everybody that you know, that couldn't

432
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: be Chucky was somebody that had his bike. I knew

433
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: he was alive. I just knew it. That was just

434
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: I guess my way to survive. That's what I had

435
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: to believe. Was there a time when your son, Chucky's

436
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: little brother said he saw Chucky run through the home? Yeah, Chuckie.

437
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: Gregory was really little then when he said that. And

438
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: what were the circumstances surrounding that, greg was we had

439
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: just moved in our house and that's when greg said, Mom,

440
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: I saw Chucky just walked down the hallway. He just

441
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: passed me. I was wearing blue jeans. Yeah, he was

442
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: in his jeans what he always wore. Greg just told

443
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: me that recently. And he saw that because I would

444
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: tell Greg's strange things happen in this house, and he said, Mama,

445
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: I saw a check here. But then, you know, Greg

446
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: was very little. You know, he was only in the

447
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: second grade when Chuck died. That makes me believe him

448
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: even more. Kathy. You know when I would put witness

449
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: on the stand, and I gotta tell you, I know

450
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: I put I had to have put over a thousand

451
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: witnesses on the stand. There's no question. I found children,

452
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: to me the most believable witnesses. They don't always talk

453
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: the way we talk. Sometimes you have to unlock their

454
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: language to understand what they're saying. But I found them

455
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: to be the most truthful witnesses I've ever put on

456
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: the stand. Um next to a dog. I once had

457
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: to bring in a dog witness and I'm pretty sure

458
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: the dog wasn't lying. Kathy, I want to put out

459
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: the tip number today, um, the tip line for any

460
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: inform nation in the murder of Chucky Mock. At that time,

461
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: a seventh grade boy who loved skateboarding and Pat Man

462
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: and was so proud to be on his little league team.

463
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: This occurred many years ago, but Chucky is not forgotten.

464
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: He will never be forgotten. This occurred in Warner Robins

465
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: Georgia and Kathy. I guess you'll never forget. The date

466
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: February seventeenth, nine six at eight fifteen p m. The

467
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: tip line is four seven eight five four two to

468
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: zero eight five or four seven eight five four two

469
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: two zero eight zero. Kathy were never given up. We're

470
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: never giving up, right, I'm never giving up hope either.

471
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: By friend