WEBVTT - Fairness, Championship Design, and Fields Ranch East 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.920 And when I find my ball in a fried. 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:10.039 Egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, Frida Egg 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:12.559 brid Egg, Frida egg brid Egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:38.839 to run off of the course. Welcome back to the 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.839 Frida Egg Golf Podcast. I am your host, Andy Johnson. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.880 Today we are going to talk golf course architecture. There's 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.280 been a minute, you know, the pro golf season gets 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:52.360 cooking and uh, you know, the topics kind of find 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.280 themselves and we haven't talked golf course architecture for a while. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:58.680 I'm excited to do that. We're going to do one 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:03.200 of our mail bags. I'm bring in Garrett Morrison, one 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:08.399 of our talented personalities at Friday Golf, the host of 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.600 the Designing Golf podcast, a podcast all about golf architecture. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:14.640 So if you like this podcast, you should go check 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:19.399 out Garrett's podcast Designing Golf. So we're going to dive 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.000 into a bunch of different questions that were submitted about 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.680 golf course architecture. But before we do that, let's take 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:32.200 a quick minute to talk about our friends at golf Genius. 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.600 Golf Genius is a tournament management software. They are the 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:41.440 industry leading platform for managing golf events and tournaments. We 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.520 use this for all of Friday golf events. I can 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:50.680 say it has greatly improved our events. It has greatly 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.400 reduced some of the stress induced in our events. As 0:01:55.400 --> 0:02:00.000 someone along with Will who ran the events pre golf Genius, 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.840 I have to say that post golf Genius a lot smoother. 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.280 We aren't turnaround cards. I mean I always remember us 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.280 having like these, Like you know, we were just like 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.720 going through the scorecards as quickly as we possibly could. 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.120 And that doesn't even get to just registration. So we 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.360 used to register with Google Sheets and then transfer it 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:27.239 into golf Genius. Golf Genius has made it so much easier. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.919 And it's not just us. It saves the pro shop 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.480 hours of prep work and helps deliver a great experience 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.919 for golfers. If you're interested in all of the things 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:49.560 that golf Genius can do for you, visit golfgenius dot com. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.200 All right, let's bring in Garrett. Garrett, welcome back to 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.360 the podcast The Friend. This has to feel like you're 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:57.960 home away from home of. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.400 Course it is. Yeah, it's always very welcoming here, and 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:01.160 I'm glad to be on. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.880 You know, you're a former resident of this podcast. 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.920 Now like going back to your childhood home and saying hey, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:12.280 and you know, noticing that they remodeled the kitchen and 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:13.760 being like, oh, that looks better, you. 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:18.359 Know, or worse or worse the backyard the landscape project 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:22.239 we've done. Then turn out turn out well, no, yeah, 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:26.120 it's all good. We need your guidance back here. All right, 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:29.040 We're going to dive into a bunch of questions about 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:34.480 golf architecture and and we we got some really nice submissions, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.880 so let's just get into it. Usually we have grand 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.160 hopes of getting through like twenty of these questions, and 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:42.800 we get through five. So we'll see how many of 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:44.000 these we get through today. 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.520 That's so true. That is so true. But we got 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:48.840 a lot of good ones. We got a lot of 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:51.680 good ones, especially in Friday Golf Club, where we put 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.080 out a call for questions. A lot of our members 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.960 there in Friday Golf Club came through with some interesting topics. 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:03.600 Let's let's go with He asked, actually two questions. We're 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:04.840 going to get to both of them. I thought they 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:06.840 were great, but we're going to do this one first. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.840 The debut of Field's Ranch East in the LPGA Major 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.560 seemed to get a lot of criticism. I think that 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:16.840 might be an understatement. 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:22.160 That's fair, that's an accurate, an accurate characterization of what happened. 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.039 Just looking at the golf course architecture and how the 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.840 players played the course. Do you think negative critiques were 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:32.680 warranted or overdone? What if any changes would you make 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.200 to the course to make it better for the PGA 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:36.760 Championship in twenty twenty seven. 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.640 There were a lot of critiques. Now you have been 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.960 to this facility, I have not, so that creates a 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:49.440 difference between your and my perspectives on this issue, or 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.359 at least a difference in the validity of them. I 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:57.240 thought that there were a lot of critiques of Field's 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.600 Ranch East. You know, a lot of different tax were 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:04.320 taken by the critics of this course. Some of those 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.960 critiques were valid and some I found less valid. I 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:13.120 don't think the course was unfair or too hard. I 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.720 don't think it failed to showcase the skills of the competitors. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.800 That was the big claim made by the telecast by 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:25.880 mel Reid in her very expertly delivered piece on this 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:30.200 issue on Golf Channel, I just didn't see that. I 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.719 saw a tough golf course that brought out the best 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.960 from Minji Lee and the others who were around even par. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.120 It was difficult to score on the course, and I 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:46.000 don't think that embarrassed the competitors. I think it highlighted 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.800 the ones who were really playing well and made it 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:54.080 seem more impressive because they were actually administered a difficult test. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.400 I do think from my perspective, at least, you know, 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.720 looking on the telecast and studying some of the imagery 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.440 from the course and just looking at the whole designs, 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.719 I think there are a lot of interesting holes out there, 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:13.240 and that the telecast really failed badly to understand or 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:19.479 highlight what made those holes interesting. Now, admittedly this is 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.400 not a pretty golf course. They are in the middle 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.920 of some housing construction, and I think actually once those 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:30.080 houses are finished that it will look a little bit 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:33.440 better so that you don't have kind of this chaotic 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.440 half finished look to some of the sightlines and the 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:41.320 horizons on the holes. But Fields Ranch East is just 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.160 never going to be a beautiful course to look at. 0:06:44.200 --> 0:06:47.360 I don't think, and that's partly because of where it is. 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.680 This is not beautiful land, so it's really not going 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:56.000 to be an overwhelming esthetic experience at editing point. And 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:59.559 to me, a lot of the criticism on social media 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:04.159 Fields East was really essentially rooted in esthetics because that's 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:06.960 what people were seeing on the telecast. They weren't seeing 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:11.200 anything pretty, they weren't seeing anything especially eye catching or impressive, 0:07:11.360 --> 0:07:14.080 and so they didn't like the course. And that's understandable, 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:16.520 but you know, you have to look a little deeper 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.680 to really assess a course. The final thing here, and 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.800 this is something you've talked about, Andy, that you've referred 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.920 to that Joseph has talked about Joseph Lamania, our colleague 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:32.239 at Friday Golf, this is apparently a bad spectator course 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.560 and that's a huge miss. And in order to stage 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.760 big championships, it seems like some holes will maybe need 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.640 to be re routed, There might be an issue with 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:49.720 where nine and eighteen are, and it just bewilders me 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.559 that this was not better executed as a spectator venue 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:58.080 because that is one of its big purposes. Now, I 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.880 guess my question for you is the other course at 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.480 Fields Ranch, Fields Ranch West? Do you think that course 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:06.960 is going to be better in some of these respects. 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:11.760 My understanding is that the Field's Ranch East layout is 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:14.840 sort of spread out and wandering, and that's part of 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:18.560 the reason why it's a tough spectator venue. Fields Ranch 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:22.120 West looks maybe a little more compact, even has some 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:25.640 spectator mounds, which, while they maybe don't look that good, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.520 will at least serve the purpose of concentrating the gallery 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.679 in certain spots and giving them places to watch the tournament. 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.800 So do you think Fields Ranch West is actually going 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.400 to be going to be superior in some of those ways? 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.560 There's a lot to unpack here. I've spent actually a 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:46.320 decent amount of time at Fields Ranch. I was there 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:49.200 before it opened for a couple of days doing some 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:53.640 photography and videography, and I played it then, and then 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.440 obviously played it for the YouTube video that I did 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.959 with Luke Colton and Bones, which was super fun. 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:03.680 And to play it in like video, really cool video 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:04.520 it was. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:08.120 To play it in a competitive setting I thought was very. 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:10.400 Illuminating. 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.120 And maybe where some of the criticism comes uh is 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.439 that I having when I played it the first time around, 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.840 I was like huh, all right, like got around okay. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:23.960 I think one of the things that happens when you 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.520 play in a competitive environment, even though, like I mean 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.200 like YouTube filming, YouTube golf like is like a half 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.400 competitive environment because you're kind of like you're trying to, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.800 like I was trying to like administer a show while 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.800 playing a match, right, But what I felt when I 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.520 played it in a normal setting, it felt very spacious. Uh, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.480 when you play it in a competitive environment, and I 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:54.439 think everybody that's played, like you know, any slick of 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.559 competitive golf, even like club championship golf beef like club championship, 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.320 when you get little bit when you get that competition in, 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.959 everything kind of shrinks down. And I think the thing 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:10.319 that I noticed was that you felt, really felt that hazards. 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.959 There are a ton of hazards at Fields Ranch East, 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:20.160 the guild Course, and typically those hazards are in the 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.600 form of like little like ravines or rivers, and if 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:26.560 you hit your ball down in them, it's kind of 0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.360 like a lost ball. Not a lost ball, it's a hazard. 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:33.599 So it's a drop, it's not. But what's happened the 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.760 golf is like you see that and you're just like 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.240 very afraid of it, and you start aiming away from it. 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.920 Gill's like design was really smart. I've talked to Zach 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.880 Blair a ton about this. Zach obviously has a lot 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:50.720 of golf architecture chops, and I've always you know, through 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.320 the years, he's been so consistent, Zach with what he 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.280 says is the thing to challenge pro golfers with. 0:10:58.360 --> 0:10:58.720 Today. 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:01.400 He says, like, I don't think you can design a 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.320 golf course that is really strategic without a lot of 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:10.079 hazard lines, is what he says and feels. Ranch East 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.040 has a ton of hazard lines. Now you can go 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.080 down and like find your ball. Oftentimes you could play it. 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.640 If you watch the YouTube video, you can see me 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.160 attempt to play it from some of these places not well, 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.600 and you can go find your ball, you can play 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.400 from it. But what happens with pro golfers is they 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:32.679 see a red line and they aim away from it. 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.959 This is what all this strategy coaches teach. Just aim away, 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.480 don't even mess with it, move your shot distribution cone 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.440 so that you can't hit it in there. So what 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:45.520 Gil did was he put a bunch of red lines 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:49.400 down sides of fairways and with red lines like they 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.440 aim away, and then what he did effectively was build 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.680 greens that countered it that run away. And I think 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.480 that for that standpoint, it's a really actually interesting golf 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.960 course for pro golf. It's different. It's really different. I 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.480 can't think of many pro golf courses that have as 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.280 much red and that have strategy that relates so well 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:19.120 to the red. I get why people didn't like it, 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.720 and that's because they didn't take the time to understand 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.640 it and the fact that it's different. You know, Like 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:32.240 if you think back to new golf courses, new challenging 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.840 golf courses, they've pretty much all been met with like 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.560 stark criticism. Think about PGA West, the peat die design 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.520 called it to described as golf on the moon. Like Mark, 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.720 I think people were saying that pets his mind kiw 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:49.400 same thing. 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:53.360 Pretty much all of Pete Diye's courses got a pretty 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.360 angry reception at first. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.560 TPC sawgrass go back to when Robert Trent Jones redesigned 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:02.640 Oakland Hills. It was called a monster, and not in 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:05.960 like a nice way. If you're more interested in that story, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.800 check out Garrett's documentary podcast series around it. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.400 That's a built in promo there. 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.080 Maybe it wasn't a good course, maybe it didn't stand 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.800 the test of time, but it was new and it 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.080 got criticized. So the pattern that we're saying is that 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.439 new is disturbing to a lot of people. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.160 Fast forward, Chambers Bay, I think was criticized for a 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.440 lot of things, like the criticized beyond the greens, which 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.520 were separate issue to criticized the fact that the par 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:36.000 changed on eighteen. There was a ton of criticism for 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:37.920 Chambers Bay. The golf course. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.520 Yeah, now it's beloved, Like all these people pretending that 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.760 they liked the course at that US Open, ninety percent 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.360 of the people who are calling for the US Open 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.120 to go back to Chambers Bay didn't like it when 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:50.760 the US Open was actually played there. 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:53.319 That's my theory. Aaron Hills. 0:13:54.800 --> 0:14:02.920 Criticized greatly, Trinity Forest criticized completely, just criticized. So like, 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.199 just if you look at the theme here, I think 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:10.720 there's somewhere in between the player criticism and is this 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.480 course good? Right, there's somewhere in between. That's probably the 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.080 right place for it. It probably needs some tweaks, there needs 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.400 to be some stuff done, but I think it's actually 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:21.640 a pretty interesting golf course. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:22.480 It's just different. 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:28.080 And now, like if we get to just the overarching 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:31.480 there are some issues. Like the housing development around it 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.320 is awful. I have the first time it went they 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:40.040 hadn't been built yet and going back and like seeing 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.520 it with houses it sucks. There's no way around it. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.200 And like I don't know if they can do like 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.640 a stop work order for the PGA where like the 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.040 trucks don't show up, but that would help, Like if 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.080 there wasn't just like a ton of construction going on 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.760 around the golf course, it might help with like some 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:05.720 of the atmosphere. Yeah, and then and then like aesthetically yes, 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:10.160 it's it's not going to ever win any like beauty contest. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.680 This is not Cyper's point, but there are a lot 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.520 of like unesthetically like, not all great golf courses are 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.120 aesthetically pleasing. You know, there there are tons of places 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.120 with houses all around them. You know, Oakland Hills has 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.040 houses all around them. Now they're nice houses, Uh, they 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:32.480 aren't kind of like the McMansion houses that are going 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.400 to go on going and Frisco. Uh, but it's also new, 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.240 so you always have to remember, like stuff needs time. 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.720 To grow in uh stuff. But all in all, like 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.280 the spectator experience not being great, that that's not good. 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:50.360 And I think like one of the reasons is and 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.600 I notice, is it at Oakmont? And I'm curious your take. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.760 You just did a podcast all about trees. I think 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.800 trees are super important for the spectators. 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:02.000 A little shade. 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.240 At Oakmont, I was like dying and it's like, oh, 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:10.080 like I just the week after Oakmond, I went played 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.680 golf in like one hundred degree weather, hotter than Oakmont, humid, 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.040 and I realized I was more comfortable than Oakmont because 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.640 I could walk into shade. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.760 Gotta go stand under that elm by the third tee 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:23.960 basically at Oakmont. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:29.240 I remember, you know, like my early existence on Earth 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.160 was filled with playing competitive golf in Chicago in August. 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:36.640 And you know what you do. You just go under 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.520 trees and you hang out in the shade. And I'm 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.520 not suggesting plants a ton of trees all over the place, 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:46.520 but I do think trees by tea boxes in particular 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.640 have the most are the best place to put a tree. 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:53.480 Yeah, because to be careful about canopy management when you're 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:55.640 putting them by tea boxes. Because you don't want the 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.720 shade to get on the surface of the tea box 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.280 too much. But if you manage the tree and make 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:06.200 sure that the shade is around the tea box as 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.959 opposed to right on top of it, and given how 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:14.080 how good arborists and agronomists are at their jobs these days, 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.120 they can accomplish that, then then you have something that's 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:18.920 useful for a spectator venue for sure. 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:23.359 So for like Frisco or Oakmont for that matter, like 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.800 ways to make the spectator experience better is trees that 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:29.879 are placed like well out of play, that are in 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:33.240 areas that you know, people want to congregate and. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.040 Watch golf shots. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.680 Because to me, that's the biggest issue with the spectator 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.919 experience is they're hosting this event at the end of June, 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:42.879 which is not a good time to host. But it 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:47.160 did provide delightful conditions with like the wind and the 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:53.879 bountiness and the you know, the the temperature though was 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.000 one hundred degrees, Like who wants to go watch golf 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:59.120 in one hundred degree weather? Like, that's not something I'm 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.320 interested in actually when there's no shade. One other thing 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.679 I think, like if you were going to have like 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:12.000 a critique of Frisco. I think that the surrounds of 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.359 the green need a little work because I do think 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:20.200 like those need to play, especially for the women's game, 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.960 very bouncy, and bermuda. 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.399 Is hard in this standpoint. 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.280 It's sticky, but you have to figure out how to 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:34.720 make that bermuda really bouncy so that it really allows 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.080 for a lot of run up shots. I think that 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:41.199 there were run up shots available that weren't attempted, but 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:47.040 that needs to play like electric around in the surrounds, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.840 and I don't necessarily think it did and I and 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.440 this could be just like you know what, the grass 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:53.879 this time of year can't do it. 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:59.480 Yeah, yeah, Well, there are a lot of advances happening 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:03.080 in bermuda grass science these days, and so I'm sure 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:09.000 some experimentation can be done there. But the main thing 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.359 is that if there is a turf type that would 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:17.399 be bouncier or function better in the surrounds at Fields Ranch, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:21.879 then they should definitely consider just having that turf type 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.760 around the greens and not being devoted to having the 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:28.679 same turf type in the fairway as they have in 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.440 the surrounds. A lot of people shy away from that 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:37.360 because of the esthetic consequences of having a transition when 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:40.119 you approach the green. But there are some great golf 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.640 courses worldwide that are doing this right now, including Royal 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.880 Melbourne where they have those fscue approaches and they look 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.600 different from the couch grasses they call it there, the 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:55.040 Bermuda grass that's in the fairways, but it plays really well. 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.399 It's a great feature of that golf course, and I 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.520 hope that more courses start to experiment with this, especially 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:07.040 in Southern California. Riviera, let's let's see some let's see 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.160 some bouncy surrounds there that would really improve that golf course, 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.120 even if it has a set of consequences that are 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.840 not all that appealing to. 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.480 We're going to talk about Riviera a lot next year 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.800 with the Olympics going there. Yeah, it does feel like 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:23.760 a huge myss that we're hosting the Olympics there, Like 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.000 Rio got a brand new golf course. 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.760 Yeah, you know, and I wish we had. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.280 Wish there had been some some kind of push to 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.400 to restore the place, but I don't think there's any 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:35.800 apple well for that among the ownership. 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:40.000 What about not restoring the place, but what about renovating 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.120 Rancho Park or. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.880 Or Griffith Park. Doing something with Griffith Park. Griffith Park 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.800 would be would be perfect, and Rancho is very centrally located. 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:50.880 I'm not sure what they would do about parking there. 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.560 I really no idea, but uh, but Griffith Park they could, 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:56.280 they could do it. There's a lot of space out there, 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.880 and and that course could use some love. 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.680 Like part of the Olympics coming to town. Just generally 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.639 is you get all these like great community. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:06.360 Assets that are the benefit. 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:14.119 Yeah, and LA has like incredible potential. I would say that, 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:20.760 you know, behind San Francisco maybe the most potential. You know, 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.280 DC obviously, which is well underway with with what the 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.919 National Links Trust is doing there, but LA, and and 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:35.280 LA has just incredible public golf potential when you factor 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.840 in all the courses, Rancho Park, Griffith Park, you go 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.320 to the county, they have Santa Anita, which is a 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.720 really cool golf course that could be you know, just 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.439 some some light touch ups. Not talking like twenty million 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:54.439 dollar jobs too, but these there's just it just feels 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:59.480 like a tremendously missed opportunity in terms of creating a 0:21:59.480 --> 0:22:03.720 public set when the Olympics come and just kind of 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.359 going to RIV, which I like RIV. I love RIV, 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.560 but I think that there was an opportunity to do 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:13.280 something good for the community as well. 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.080 Yeah, it's just sort of the easy way out, I 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:16.359 guess for choosing a. 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:25.440 Venue as far as Frisco West, I guess it's maybe 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.760 a better spectating option, but it is not a better 0:22:27.800 --> 0:22:28.399 golf course. 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.920 Yeah, there are signed by bo Welling, So bo Welling 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.359 did West, Gilhans did East. 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:38.879 There are some wild greens out there. My main critique 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.840 of Frisco West is there are some really cool greens, 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:48.560 but the every so many holes are lined by bunkers 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.800 on the right and left side on the exterior, and 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.480 it's almost as if the architect doesn't want the cool 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:04.200 greens to have to doesn't want to amplify some of 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.159 the cool greens that were built by allowing people to 0:23:07.240 --> 0:23:11.520 push to the edges, and it's more like hit it 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:15.520 down the middle. And I think that, you know, there's 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:19.479 also some like construction critiques that I would have, and 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:22.560 there's a big hill that they have to navigate that 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.920 it can get a little redundant. I you know, I'm 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.679 not I'm not an expert. When it comes to routing, 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:30.639 I think there probably could have been a better routing. 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:32.160 They're also. 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.160 I think there was a time at which they thought 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:39.359 that maybe the PGA Tour would be going there. So 0:23:39.480 --> 0:23:43.000 the mounding you see was actually a PGA Tour directive. 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:48.160 So there's life and then they just said, uh, never mind. 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:49.680 Yeah yeah. 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.399 So it's actually like a great story. This was like 0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:57.720 right after Trinity Forest when it was being constructed, and 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:00.960 you'll see if you played, if you played the West Course, 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:05.040 there's like some really cool like shared fairways with minimal mounding, 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:10.080 like cool like break mounds and bunkers. The PGA Tour 0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.320 fresh off of Trany Forest was like no, no, no, no, 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:16.600 we need containment mounting, we need these hole siloed. 0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:18.000 Yeah, if you look at it. 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:20.159 And by the way, part of the issue with Trinity Forest, 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:22.560 where the PGA Tour went for like what two or 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:23.119 three years? 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:26.080 Two years, two years, it was a short instant. 0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:29.080 Is what you referred to earlier, the lack of shade. 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.600 Spectators really didn't enjoy not having trees to stand under 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.600 a Trinity Forest. But it was but it was a 0:24:35.640 --> 0:24:38.439 really cool golf course and in other ways, and so 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.040 so maybe a bummer, but anyway, going gone with the story. 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:44.840 So anyways, they they then then were like you have 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.840 to build these mounds, and they so they built these 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:51.720 like mouths like basically like three holes. There's like all 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.240 these containment mounts and then nowhere else and they're on 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:56.960 the back nine, so they just come out of nowhere, 0:24:56.960 --> 0:25:03.840 like wait, worm these where did these come from? But 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:08.159 it's I I think, like I think that West Course 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.120 there's some like you know, catch basins, which I don't 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:13.280 need to go and do. I think everybody knows. I'm 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:16.240 not a fan of that, like are awful around the greens, 0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:18.800 But honestly, if you got rid of like all of 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:22.520 like almost all the bunkers at the West Course, it 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:25.679 would get dramatically better. Like that golf course should have 0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:27.880 like twenty five bunkers and it would be really cool 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:30.840 because the greens are really neat, like there's some wild 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:35.040 neat greens. It's just like completely over bunkered for what 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:40.400 it is and I just don't I don't understand why 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:44.000 there's so many bunkers. But anyways, so that's those are 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.119 my thoughts on the West Course is would it be 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:48.280 a better spectator course. 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:48.879 I don't know. 0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:53.159 I think you're kind of you're taking change out of 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:55.160 one pocket and putting in another pocket. 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:56.760 To be completely honest. 0:25:56.440 --> 0:25:58.720 It doesn't really make any sense to me that these 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:02.520 courses are not better spectator courses. But maybe that's a 0:26:02.600 --> 0:26:07.160 discussion for a future future episode or or an investigation 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:09.440 of why things went the way they went. 0:26:10.000 --> 0:26:12.199 One other question I have is like, why can't we 0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:17.040 build grandstands with more like roofing? Is that just like 0:26:18.200 --> 0:26:19.719 exorbitantly expensive? 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:20.760 No idea? 0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:26.280 That would be Like Another solution i'd have is can 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:31.240 we get more grandstands with roofing? And then all of 0:26:31.280 --> 0:26:35.000 a sudden, like you can sit in shade? As someone 0:26:35.000 --> 0:26:38.040 who's gone to a lot of golf tournaments, I mean 0:26:38.119 --> 0:26:40.639 you just can cook in a grand stand. 0:26:40.720 --> 0:26:44.160 Oh yeah, yeah, well because of the reflected light. 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:47.679 Yeah, it's like a different level of hot when it's hot. 0:26:48.119 --> 0:26:49.040 It's like that's not. 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:51.359 The place I want to be either, right, I'd like 0:26:51.359 --> 0:26:53.719 like to be next to the grandstand in the shade. 0:26:53.840 --> 0:26:57.320 So really the key is shade. There needs to be 0:26:57.359 --> 0:26:59.919 more shade, and people wouldn't complain. So there we go. 0:27:00.000 --> 0:27:04.080 Oh we're twenty five minutes in one question one question. Perfect, 0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:11.440 here we go. I've got this question for you. 0:27:11.560 --> 0:27:11.879 Here. 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:16.560 Many of the best funded new projects This is from 0:27:16.680 --> 0:27:20.520 James Roth. So many of the best funded new projects 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:22.680 on the best sites tend to go to the Big 0:27:22.720 --> 0:27:27.679 four of golf course architects. Does this limit innovation? Also? 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:30.119 Is Gil Hans the new open Doctor? 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.280 Also, oh my gosh, three questions. 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:37.280 Just focusing on sites that that are to host championships 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:39.000 force architects to the middle. 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:42.720 Okay, let's tackle these one at a time. So the 0:27:42.720 --> 0:27:46.280 Big four question, whether the a lot of the best 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:51.280 jobs quote unquote going to David McLay Kidd, Gil Hans, 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:56.160 Corn Crenshaw, and Tom Doak. Does that limit innovation? I'm 0:27:56.160 --> 0:28:00.360 not sure that that's where the limitation on innovation comes from. 0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:04.920 I think what really limits innovation in golf architecture is 0:28:05.200 --> 0:28:11.880 cost and risk, which makes clients conservative. And so it's yes, 0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:16.120 that's part of the reason why clients choose the same architects, 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:20.359 the same successful architects, over and over. But the main 0:28:20.480 --> 0:28:23.160 thing there, the main dynamic there is that the clients 0:28:23.280 --> 0:28:27.120 ask the architects to do what they did before that 0:28:27.240 --> 0:28:28.800 made those courses successful. 0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:33.760 I'm gonna I'm gonna step in here. I'm gonna I'm 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:36.600 musa say something else limits innovation. 0:28:36.880 --> 0:28:45.160 Okay from specifically or the paraple shotgun, start soundboard, making 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:46.520 it into the fried egg pot. 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:47.920 Oh, people are gonna be so mad. 0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:54.120 The fair police. The idea of fair is the greatest. 0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:58.320 I mean, we just talked about fairness at a major 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:05.160 championship where you had genotitical and and MinJe Lee, two 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:09.440 of the greatest women's players of the last five years, 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.720 duking it out, the only two that really had a 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:15.360 chance to win on Sunday going into Sunday on a course, 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:17.880 and they were both like under par one, and we're 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:22.280 talking about whether it was fair or not fair. Golf 0:29:22.360 --> 0:29:28.440 is unfair. If you live your golf life with the 0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:33.880 lens of understanding the game is inherently fair unfair, you 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:37.160 will play better golf just in general. But it also 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:43.400 if every golfer lost the idea of fair from their 0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:50.440 dictionary of golf terms, golf architecture would would go nuts. 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:55.680 There'd be just wild golf courses, wild bad, wild good. 0:29:56.240 --> 0:30:00.239 But the problem is people. People believe that if they 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:05.000 hit the green, they should automatically be like guaranteed a 0:30:05.040 --> 0:30:07.480 two putt. You know what, one of the greatest short 0:30:07.480 --> 0:30:11.280 par threes in the world is National Golf Links Short 0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:14.320 par three, and it's got one of the craziest greens 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:17.240 in the world. And one day I hit I played there, 0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:19.960 I hit a terrible wedge to like forty feet. It 0:30:20.040 --> 0:30:22.680 was just a bad shot. The pin was front right, 0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:26.080 and I was standing over the putt and I said, 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:28.280 if I hit it at the hole, it's going off 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:29.480 the green into the bunker. 0:30:29.680 --> 0:30:31.760 If I try and make this, I laid up. 0:30:33.240 --> 0:30:36.000 I laid up the putt because I knew I hit 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:38.760 it in the wrong place. I was in a place 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.680 I hit a terrible shot. So like people like believe 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:44.320 like if I hit the green, I should I should 0:30:44.320 --> 0:30:47.080 be as long as I don't screw up, I should 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:49.600 be able to putt like this is one thing that 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:55.360 limits innovation in golf architecture. The idea of par in 0:30:55.440 --> 0:30:59.800 handicaps limit the innovation in golf architecture. We've begun to 0:30:59.800 --> 0:31:03.479 see some golf courses that don't have scorecards. But like, 0:31:03.520 --> 0:31:07.560 the number one thing that is limiting innovation in golf 0:31:07.680 --> 0:31:14.160 architecture is absolutely the public in America's perception of fair 0:31:14.920 --> 0:31:19.760 The game is unfair. And as soon as you every 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:23.840 golfer that's listening to this podcast wraps their head around 0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.960 it accepts that the game's unfair, you will play better golf. 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:29.680 You will without a doubt. Like when you get a 0:31:29.720 --> 0:31:33.240 plugged line in a bunker, you say, oh, this is fun. 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:35.720 This is an opportunity to hit a great shot when 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.920 you roll into a divot. If you accept it that 0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:41.560 that's just part of the game and that these are 0:31:41.720 --> 0:31:44.520 moments that are giving the opportunities to hit a once 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:48.200 in a lifetime shot that you will never forget, you 0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:52.760 will play better golf. And that is also would allow 0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.600 golf architects to build better golf courses. 0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:57.800 And also probably be a happier person if you just 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:00.880 accepted that certain things are unfair, because even on a 0:32:00.920 --> 0:32:06.000 course that's designed with the idea of fair baked essentially 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:09.720 into it, unfair things are going to happen just because 0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:12.640 it's golf, you know. I think any golf course design 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:18.480 needs to balance randomness and quirk with a sense of 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:24.400 fairness because a completely or you know, absolutely unfair course 0:32:24.480 --> 0:32:28.000 would just be ridiculous, and so there needs to be 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:34.120 some idea of fair play. You know, baked into the design, 0:32:34.560 --> 0:32:38.560 but probably a lot less of it than people think 0:32:38.800 --> 0:32:43.080 or than people want to accept. And so, yeah, completely 0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:47.640 agree Andy preaching to the choir, and so I'm not 0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:51.320 sure how to begin changing that, but it is certainly 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.520 an epidemic in the discussion of the pro game, whether 0:32:56.640 --> 0:33:00.840 golf courses are fair or not, and it makes people conservative, 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:03.840 you know. I think about this a lot with comparisons 0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:08.680 between golf architecture and other art forms. If you look 0:33:08.760 --> 0:33:13.480 at an art form like like pop music, like rock music, 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:19.920 the pace of innovation and the variety of experiments that 0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:24.360 musicians have done over the decades are so much broader 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:27.000 and so much bigger than what golf architects have done. 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:29.480 And part of that is because not only be famished. 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:34.040 Part of that is because there's way more of of 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.920 production of music than there is of golf architecture. But 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.040 also part of it is that there there aren't like 0:33:41.080 --> 0:33:45.520 the same limitations on what musicians do that the consequences 0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:51.000 don't seem to be as severe for a bad experiment. 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:50.960 In that. 0:33:53.840 --> 0:33:56.640 Right, And that's what I'm talking about with cost and risk, 0:33:56.880 --> 0:33:59.720 right where where the client has to be conservative because 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.760 you put out an album and it flops. Well, you know, 0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:05.000 that's a bummer and you might lose a little money, 0:34:05.040 --> 0:34:07.240 but only a little bit. You put out a golf 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.160 course and it flops, that's a disaster. 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:15.400 There's there's so many great like essays centered around especially 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:18.200 like I think Elsa McKenzie wrote about it, but like 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:23.640 the finality of design, how it's like it's done, especially 0:34:23.680 --> 0:34:27.160 when you get to the municipal space at like a 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:29.920 big time resort, at a at a at a private 0:34:29.960 --> 0:34:34.560 club or at a you know, so of course that 0:34:34.760 --> 0:34:38.480 say a very wealthy individual's building, you can always make 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:43.240 changes at a municipal golf course, you know, municipal golf 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:47.080 course saves up, gets the funding and spends you know, 0:34:47.160 --> 0:34:51.920 fifteen million dollars. That's that's it. The course is what 0:34:51.960 --> 0:34:53.600 it is for the next sixty years. 0:34:53.920 --> 0:34:55.719 Yeah, you don't you have to earn the money back, 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:57.960 you know, you don't have that more. 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:00.359 That's that's the thing that is like the there is 0:35:00.400 --> 0:35:02.880 like this idea of design, like once you lock in 0:35:03.000 --> 0:35:05.120 a routing and build it, it's really hard to change 0:35:05.120 --> 0:35:10.239 it anywhere, you know. But I think like preconceived notions 0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:14.680 just generally are bad for art. The idea of like 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:18.960 rules and limitations. If you wanted to talk about, like 0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:22.520 how would we get the most abstract innovative ideas in 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.840 golf would be to throw away the preconceived notions. So 0:35:25.880 --> 0:35:29.560 you think about things that limit, like that limit your innovation, 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:37.040 number of holes, the idea of score, right, the you know, 0:35:37.719 --> 0:35:41.080 I think you could go into equipment like fourteen clubs limit, 0:35:41.280 --> 0:35:44.719 Like I think you'd get more innovation with like if 0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:48.960 you created golf courses that were like four club courses, 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:51.719 people might find that really interesting. But that would be 0:35:51.800 --> 0:35:57.200 against like the handicap system overall, very huge limit or 0:35:57.400 --> 0:36:03.520 inhibitor because you can't even do interesting setups because if 0:36:03.760 --> 0:36:05.480 it's like, well, what tea did I play? 0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:09.680 Yeah, well you have to rate the separate courses and yeah. 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.120 So and then if you start to think about it, 0:36:11.120 --> 0:36:13.000 it's like all right, well, like if I wanted to 0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.279 build a golf course, I've always thought about this is 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:18.279 like build a golf course and have like I'm gonna 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:22.560 have like thirty two different unique setups with like whole locations. 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:26.160 I guess I'll tell this this is. 0:36:26.160 --> 0:36:29.520 Like one of my like far fetched ideas. My favorite 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:31.800 restaurants in the world are the ones with no menus 0:36:32.320 --> 0:36:36.799 to me, Like, why if I'm going to a great 0:36:36.800 --> 0:36:40.600 restaurant with a world class chef, like just give me whatever. 0:36:40.640 --> 0:36:43.160 You're gonna do whatever you want, you know, like you're 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:46.920 the chef, Like you know I'm not. It'd be like 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:49.200 me getting in a New York cab and being like, well, 0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:51.279 like I've spent like five days in the city, I 0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:54.479 think you should go this way, right, Like that guy 0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:57.959 knows where to go. The chef knows how to make 0:36:58.080 --> 0:37:00.920 the food. So like one idea I've had is like 0:37:01.400 --> 0:37:04.920 build a golf course with like a lot going on 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:10.920 and then have like a unique setup that like so 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:13.799 many of them that are like and you they're just 0:37:13.840 --> 0:37:17.600 like this is what you're eating today, and you know, 0:37:17.680 --> 0:37:20.759 you could play one whole six hundred yards one day 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:23.440 and then the next day it could be two hundred 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:27.239 and fifty. But make it like really diverse and that 0:37:27.600 --> 0:37:30.480 all the setups work together and the architect who designed 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:34.439 the golf course lays it out like something I think 0:37:34.480 --> 0:37:38.759 that's kind of weird is that architects design these great 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.920 golf courses and then like superintendents set them up. And 0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:47.799 I love superintendents but like over time, a superintendent's like 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:52.680 job is rooted in becoming efficient, and golf course setup 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:56.680 is the way someone experiences a golf course, and that 0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:00.920 should not be efficient. It should be very intense. It 0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.680 should be like, Okay, this hole is doing this, like 0:38:03.800 --> 0:38:05.279 this is how I can get the most out of 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:10.440 it and maybe put somebody into like a tough spot 0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:13.360 by setting up this, or make a hard decision that 0:38:13.400 --> 0:38:14.800 they have never had to make before. 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:16.440 And I think. 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:21.680 That these preconceived notions are what limit golf course innovation. 0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:25.719 I will say though that like, yeah, like having like 0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:28.479 the same arts, Like if you have the same they're 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:33.720 only four rock band, you would see a minimal amount 0:38:33.719 --> 0:38:36.960 of innovation. Now like the flip side, as you said, 0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:39.160 there aren't a lot of projects. 0:38:39.880 --> 0:38:42.560 Yeah, yeah, I mean if you look at the number 0:38:42.600 --> 0:38:46.600 of songs that have been released since nineteen twenty versus 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:48.839 the number of golf courses that have been built since 0:38:48.880 --> 0:38:52.600 nineteen twenty, there's there's a big difference. But what made 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:54.759 me think of this is that I've been reading a 0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:59.400 really great biography recently of the Beatles. Really it's like 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.000 an eight hundred page book just about the first the 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.000 first five years of the Beatles, like Mark Lewison, it's 0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:08.920 called tune In, and it's extremely detailed. It's almost like 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:13.240 a day by day, week by week account of the Beatles. 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:15.480 So if you're you know, if you've already read some 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:17.400 other stuff about the Beatles, maybe this would be the 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:21.120 book to read. But I found it completely fascinating. You know, 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:23.760 where did this band come from? How did this band 0:39:23.840 --> 0:39:27.759 become so great? When did they become so great? And 0:39:28.920 --> 0:39:31.759 one thing that's so interesting about them is the is 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:36.719 the pace of their changing styles. If you look at 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:40.000 the Beatles, but you know, in the late nineteen fifties, 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:43.520 they were just a bunch of teenagers. They had really 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:47.719 they were very talented, but they were just like a 0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:54.560 skiffle band. They were playing on really basic instruments and 0:39:55.000 --> 0:40:00.560 playing in a style that was very easy to applicate. 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:06.439 And by nineteen sixty seven, if I have my years right, 0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:11.880 they were making Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band. That's 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:16.719 seven eight years. How does that happen? How does one 0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:21.440 band progress that quickly and just become so different so 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:26.400 quickly every few months. In the nineteen sixties, the Beatles 0:40:26.440 --> 0:40:32.279 were changing who they were and there's really no comparison 0:40:32.960 --> 0:40:35.879 in golf architecture for all the reasons that we've laid out, 0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:41.160 but it does make the art form less dynamic overall. 0:40:41.280 --> 0:40:43.960 And so if there's any way that we as a 0:40:44.000 --> 0:40:48.760 golf community can allow golf architecture to be more vital 0:40:49.080 --> 0:40:54.279 and more dynamic like music and film and literature have 0:40:54.400 --> 0:40:56.760 been historically, I think that the better off we're. 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:56.960 Going to be. 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:03.279 I would agree with that. I think, like when you 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:06.759 when you get into it too. There are certain architects 0:41:06.800 --> 0:41:09.359 like I think Tom Doak's been probably the most experimental. 0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:13.760 He's brought the most new stuff to the industry. 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:17.360 He's been intentional about about changing. Yeah, the way he 0:41:17.400 --> 0:41:18.200 does things. 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.799 And he's it's in response is to what's going on 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:23.120 in the market, kind of like the way the music 0:41:23.200 --> 0:41:27.319 industry happened. He brought in with and he's pushed back 0:41:27.360 --> 0:41:30.480 on with and he's gone like much more economical in 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:35.680 recent I mean his newest design in Texas, like so 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:40.520 few bunkers, right, so few, so little earth moving, and 0:41:41.239 --> 0:41:43.480 you know, I think like that's such a that's such 0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:46.880 a you know you think about like compare that to 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:51.280 stream song blue or something it's such a big change 0:41:51.480 --> 0:41:54.120 from that over the course of I mean that would 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:58.360 have been almost twenty years now, you know, fifteen years. 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:02.280 Stream from string Soong Blue to now is fourteen fifteen, 0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:03.839 fourteen fifteen years. Yeah. 0:42:03.920 --> 0:42:04.960 Yeah. 0:42:05.080 --> 0:42:07.319 But then you have like I think, like Bill Krer 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:10.879 and Ben Crenshaw, like they kind of have like their methodology. 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:14.800 They they find they build like really great natural holes. 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:17.680 It's about the land for them. I think Bill cor 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:22.520 trusts in the distinctiveness of each piece of land, and 0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:25.799 that is what he's about. He's about capturing whatever that 0:42:26.000 --> 0:42:28.240 is in the land, and so it's just a completely 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:30.440 different approach to the art form. It's very interesting that 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.439 these two architects who are considered similar to each other 0:42:33.600 --> 0:42:37.080 or or standard bearers of the same movement, are actually 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:39.240 very different in the way that they approach their craft. 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:41.400 I don't think. 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:45.120 Michael would care be sharing that I was. I went 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:47.680 and saw Rodeo Dunes a couple of weeks ago, and 0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:51.600 one thing that Michael said that he pushed Bill Bill 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:56.319 Corrers doing the first first course there. The site's incredible, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:59.719 it's unbelievable. One thing he pushed Bill on was like, 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:03.800 and we can we try and do stuff differently, and 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:07.400 and his his directive was make it less neat, you know, 0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:12.400 like you have such an elegant like elegance to your designs, 0:43:12.440 --> 0:43:15.479 like just leave weird stuff. And I think it turned 0:43:15.520 --> 0:43:16.520 out pretty interesting. 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:21.000 That's a good directive from an owner to say, here's 0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:23.719 something I've noticed about your designs and that elegance that 0:43:23.719 --> 0:43:28.000 that all tied in kind of smoothness is a feature 0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:30.919 of Corn Crenshaw's designs that would be interesting to see 0:43:31.080 --> 0:43:31.920 messed up a little. 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:36.960 That that site. I can't say enough that site's extraordinary. 0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:40.160 I like cannot believe that it was just sitting an 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:41.759 hour from Denver. 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:43.160 And then found on Google Earth. 0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:48.640 Yeah, it's it's awesome. You know. There are other questions 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:53.440 in here that I think, like in terms of innovation, 0:43:53.920 --> 0:43:57.920 there's been a lot of new golf being built that 0:43:58.000 --> 0:44:00.560 will open in the next year or two, and I 0:44:00.560 --> 0:44:04.600 think you're going to see a lot of new artists, 0:44:04.640 --> 0:44:09.880 new architects attempt to build or you know, possibly break 0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:15.440 through with their with their designs. Is Gil Hand's the 0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:16.440 new open doctor. 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.680 Not really. No, He's not nearly as dominant as Robert 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:24.440 Trent Jones was, or even as Rhys Jones was in in, 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:29.680 you know, shaping the destinies of these championship venues. But 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:33.200 of course he's become a go to architect for both 0:44:33.719 --> 0:44:38.879 USGA venues and PGA of America venues, which is interesting, right. 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:42.440 It's not like he has a relationship with one organization 0:44:42.600 --> 0:44:44.879 or the other. It's more that he works with these 0:44:44.960 --> 0:44:48.840 courses that happened to show host championships, so the connection 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:51.160 is less he worked. I think he works well with 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:55.239 those organizations, but but that's not the primary relationship. And 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:58.560 then Andrew Green, of course has a lot of the 0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:01.400 jobs that either gill Hand was unable to take on 0:45:02.080 --> 0:45:04.759 or just got those jobs, like he got the o 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:06.840 Kill job, he got the Invernous. 0:45:06.400 --> 0:45:09.000 Job, and got the Olympia Field's job. 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:12.040 Got the Olympia Field's job, and he there's there's an 0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.240 equally strong argument that he is a kind of open 0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:18.279 doctor PGA championship doctor at this point, the one that 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:22.279 flies under the radar. The real open doctor in the 0:45:22.320 --> 0:45:25.720 world of golf right now is the open doctor. Mackenzie 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:29.160 and Ebert. They have a close relationship with the RNA. 0:45:29.440 --> 0:45:32.040 Martin Ebert is a member of the RNA, has served 0:45:32.040 --> 0:45:34.880 on committees in the RNA, has served on committees that 0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:39.080 choose championship venues for the RNA, and if you want 0:45:39.080 --> 0:45:42.920 to host an open championship, basically it's known that you 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:46.320 need to hire Mackenzie and Ebert. That's an open doctor, 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.160 not really what what Gil Hans and Andrew Green are doing. 0:45:49.600 --> 0:45:53.279 And that's that's more similar to the relationship that Joe 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:57.319 Dye and the USGA had with Robert Trent Jones and 0:45:56.800 --> 0:45:57.800 one fifties. 0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:00.839 Yeah, where it was like an exclusive relation relationship. You know, 0:46:00.960 --> 0:46:04.160 here there's nobody else that that Joe Die was going 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:06.520 to recommend than than Robert Shen Jones. 0:46:06.680 --> 0:46:11.360 And maybe maybe it's similar also. I'm not I haven't 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:14.040 seen all the work all over the place, but I 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:18.680 think you could categorically or pretty emphatically now look back 0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:22.160 and this is all trends, but you look back now 0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.319 and you say that, wow, Robert Trent Jones and Joe 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:29.120 Dye together ruined a lot of great golf courses. 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:32.480 They didn't do a whole lot of good. And I 0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:36.000 mean the thing that can be said without a subjective assessment, 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:39.200 an assessment that I agree with, of course, but the 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:41.359 thing that can be said, is that pretty much all 0:46:41.360 --> 0:46:44.520 of their work has now been redone. Yes, all of 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:47.239 it doesn't. It doesn't none of it, almost none of 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:51.879 it remains. And I think maybe not maybe, I think 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:55.440 probably we'll see something similar with the open road of 0:46:55.520 --> 0:46:57.400 venues in a couple of decades. 0:46:58.280 --> 0:47:04.160 I've numerous numerous architects. This is don't try and play, 0:47:04.280 --> 0:47:08.560 this is numerous architects. Other people said to me, have 0:47:08.760 --> 0:47:14.440 said to me offline, thank god for Rhese Jones because 0:47:14.480 --> 0:47:18.640 he is making my job easy. 0:47:18.000 --> 0:47:20.120 Because all I have to do is be better than that. 0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:24.880 All I get to redo is work all the time. 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:29.239 So just just. 0:47:29.200 --> 0:47:32.359 So we're you know, I wonder if Riest Jones takes 0:47:32.360 --> 0:47:33.520 that as a genuine compliment. 0:47:33.719 --> 0:47:35.240 I still get work himself. 0:47:35.440 --> 0:47:36.080 That's true. 0:47:36.239 --> 0:47:37.640 He's busy, busy guy. 0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:42.799 Everybody's busy at seventy nine eighty years old. 0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:46.200 And then this final I would just get to this 0:47:46.280 --> 0:47:49.640 real quick. Just focusing on sites that are that are 0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:53.360 to host champ championships, force architects in the middle. Yes, 0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:56.839 because their fairness. You have to balance fairness. You have 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:01.120 to consider infrastructure. It's a lot to what we just talked. 0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:03.759 There's so many things you have to think about that 0:48:03.920 --> 0:48:13.680 lead to like constantly making concessions on design. Championships naturally 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:22.120 lead you to watering down the design or the the 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:26.440 restoration of a place because oh, it can't be this wide, 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:29.799 Oh we need we need a car path here for 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.479 access for equipment. Oh we're going to put a grand 0:48:32.520 --> 0:48:37.160 stand here. I mean, like think a lot of these 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:40.080 open courses. Like the one thing that Mackenzie and Eber 0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:42.200 comes in, Like the first thing they do is like 0:48:42.480 --> 0:48:45.279 spectator flow, we need to move this green. 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:47.239 Right, even if it's a good hole, we're getting rid 0:48:47.280 --> 0:48:50.719 of it because because we need to build up this 0:48:50.719 --> 0:48:52.759 this championship hosting infrastructure. 0:48:53.040 --> 0:48:56.000 So I think like you could unequivocally say that modern 0:48:56.239 --> 0:49:01.280 championships are bad for golf courses if you're interested in 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:03.040 the golf course design. 0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:07.520 Especially for old courses that are or were what they 0:49:07.560 --> 0:49:10.040 were and were designed to be what they were. To 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:14.520 retrofit those into a modern US Open or PGA championship 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:18.000 venue often does a lot of damage to what those 0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:20.279 courses are. And I think you just have to look 0:49:20.320 --> 0:49:24.880 at the difference between gil Hans's work for championship hosting 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:28.480 courses and gil Hans's work just as an architect for 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:31.160 the amateur player, I would say he takes a lot 0:49:31.200 --> 0:49:34.160 more risks when he's designing a place like the Hoopy 0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:40.000 Match Club or Rustic Canyon than he does with even 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:42.080 Southern Hills Country Club, which I love. 0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:43.400 In that one was the one that. 0:49:43.880 --> 0:49:46.239 I love that course. I love that course. I think 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:51.040 it's terrific and there's a great kind of ingenious compromise 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:54.000 between the requirements of a modern championship venue and just 0:49:54.160 --> 0:49:57.799 a restoration of a Perry Maxwell golf course. But if 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:00.680 the PGA Championship or the Ryder Cup or whatever else 0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:04.799 they want to host wasn't a consideration, I think there 0:50:04.840 --> 0:50:07.520 would have been some other things that gil Hans was 0:50:07.560 --> 0:50:08.319 able to do there. 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:15.800 I agree, and I think that transit. Here's a good question. 0:50:16.040 --> 0:50:20.480 I really like Trent Godby. Besides the old course, what 0:50:20.640 --> 0:50:24.400 Scottish courses have had the most influence on golf courses 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:25.080 in the US. 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:29.280 That's an interesting question, isn't it. It's such a historical question. 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.680 I think probably the first place I'd go would be 0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:38.680 North Barrick, not just because of the template holes, not 0:50:38.800 --> 0:50:41.600 just because of the Ridan, but just in general as 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:45.879 an influence on especially modern golf architecture. I think North 0:50:45.920 --> 0:50:49.360 Barrick is a kind of guiding light for quirky golf 0:50:49.400 --> 0:50:54.040 course design. I think that course freeze architects up to 0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:58.080 try things because certain aspects of North Barrick are so weird. 0:50:58.960 --> 0:51:01.120 The other ones that I think of would be would 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:05.920 be pressed Wick, just because Presstwick really represents the the 0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:09.520 professionalization of golf architecture. That was one of the first 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:14.560 courses that was really designed by a person who was 0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:18.880 devoting himself or at least devoting a portion of his 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:22.760 time intentionally taking on golf course design as a profession 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:25.839 in Old Tom Morris and so just as a as 0:51:25.880 --> 0:51:30.000 a statement of early golf architecture, pressed Wick very influential. 0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:33.120 And then we're all Dornick is the I think say that, Yeah, 0:51:33.120 --> 0:51:36.840 because because of Donald Ross and and whatever influence Dornick 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:39.120 might have had on Donald Ross's, you know, sort of 0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:41.680 budding ideas about golf architecture. 0:51:42.239 --> 0:51:46.000 Yeah, Dornet Royal Doric being the place that the most 0:51:46.000 --> 0:51:51.480 prolific American architect spent a lot of his early life 0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:55.920 playing and seeing. I think, uh, then there's like themes 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.879 that people bring over from it. Unfortunately, like usually it's 0:51:59.880 --> 0:52:03.479 all all the wrong stuff that have an influence I think, 0:52:03.520 --> 0:52:06.960 like Ireland Irish golf like influences rough in America. 0:52:07.719 --> 0:52:10.040 Oh interesting, Yeah. 0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:14.239 Like Iri Irish golf, they're very like steeped in competition 0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:17.800 and hard hard, like they like the idea of hard 0:52:17.920 --> 0:52:20.960 and competition and metal play, which I think, like listen, 0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:22.799 like I love. One of the things I think is 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:27.040 intoxicating is when you go to Ireland or Scotland is 0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:30.360 like how much they love competition, like you're always playing 0:52:30.360 --> 0:52:32.160 a match, but they play a lot of like you know, 0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:34.799 metals and and I think like one of the things 0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:38.160 that Ireland like, one of my criticisms of Irish golf 0:52:38.200 --> 0:52:42.399 would be like how much lost ball rough exists. It's 0:52:42.440 --> 0:52:44.920 obviously a place that gets a lot of rain, so 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:47.920 the rough gets very thick and you're off it's wetter. 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:51.440 It's that's one big difference between Irish links and Scottish links, right, 0:52:51.640 --> 0:52:55.239 Irish links are wetter so that the rough is kind 0:52:55.239 --> 0:52:56.120 of thicker. 0:52:56.760 --> 0:52:59.719 Yeah, So I think like that that is something like 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:03.000 people we'll take at that come back with that nobody 0:53:03.000 --> 0:53:05.120 thinks about like oh wow, like you know, the green 0:53:05.160 --> 0:53:08.920 speeds here are like delightful like I you know it 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:12.520 helps with their pace to play, like why did they 0:53:12.520 --> 0:53:15.680 play golf faster than us? And in general whether greens 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:18.400 are slower, so it's like you get off the green quicker. 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:19.759 You know. 0:53:20.080 --> 0:53:23.200 These are things like you know, a bunker as a hazard, 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:26.200 like there's not this like notion that you should be 0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:28.880 able to just get out and and and have a 0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:32.120 perfect lie all the time. The people don't take away 0:53:32.120 --> 0:53:35.560 the good things generally with with with golf in Ireland 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:39.360 and in Scotland and England, they take away the things 0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:41.800 you don't want don't want to take away. So that 0:53:41.800 --> 0:53:44.879 that would be my my other thing. Let's go back 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:50.320 to uh to Dale Miller here Henry Phones Phones, Henry 0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:52.520 Phones never built a golf course, then goes to Scotland 0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:54.840 to study the courses. He comes back and build Ougmont. 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:57.640 Hugh Wilson never built a golf course, then goes to 0:53:57.640 --> 0:54:00.279 Scotland to study the golf courses. He comes back and 0:54:00.320 --> 0:54:03.279 built Marion. I think you could add Cebe McDonald goes 0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:04.600 over to Scotland. 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:07.640 Well and George Crump. It might be the best example within. 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:11.960 This is golf courses built in National Golf Links George Crump. Similarly, 0:54:12.040 --> 0:54:15.319 Pine Valley is tons of experience needed to create a 0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:16.480 world class golf course. 0:54:17.640 --> 0:54:21.240 This is a really interesting and well set up question, 0:54:21.360 --> 0:54:26.840 so thank you Dale. There are different kinds of experience. 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:31.120 I think there is studying golf course design, and then 0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:34.640 there's actually practicing it. There's actually constructing a golf course. 0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:40.400 And so, first of all, the extent to which cebe McDonald, 0:54:40.400 --> 0:54:44.280 Henry Phones, Hugh Wilson and other kind of first time 0:54:44.560 --> 0:54:49.320 architects of the Golden Age were immersed in and utterly 0:54:49.440 --> 0:54:54.160 fascinated by golf architecture, would I think stun twenty first 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:58.520 century golfers. The amount that these guys read about golf courses, 0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:02.640 studied golf verses, talked about golf courses with their friends. 0:55:03.560 --> 0:55:05.120 It was unbelievable. 0:55:05.680 --> 0:55:06.120 And so. 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:10.920 Yeah, you know, actual experience in golf course construction didn't 0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:14.720 prove to be crucially important to them, but they had 0:55:14.960 --> 0:55:18.479 experience and knowledge in other ways. And then on top 0:55:18.520 --> 0:55:22.680 of that, Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and CB McDonald especially 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:27.920 sought advice and enlisted help from a lot of smart 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:32.480 and experienced people in designing their courses. The Oakmont story 0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:35.520 is a little different because the Phoneses really did just 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:39.680 kind of build that course after having not done anything 0:55:39.800 --> 0:55:42.480 like that before, and that's part of why Oakmont is 0:55:42.480 --> 0:55:47.320 so distinctive and interesting. But they also spent four decades 0:55:48.480 --> 0:55:51.239 refining the course and turning it into the course that 0:55:52.200 --> 0:55:54.719 we more or less know now, and so that there 0:55:54.840 --> 0:55:57.719 was that kind of just time and effort spent on 0:55:57.840 --> 0:56:02.680 the golf course design that maybe compensated for their initial 0:56:03.000 --> 0:56:06.160 lack of experience. And then the final point would be 0:56:06.640 --> 0:56:09.759 comparing these kind of first time golf architects of the 0:56:09.800 --> 0:56:14.160 Golden Age to what an amateur golf architect might do 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:18.839 now is tricky because golf course architecture has become a 0:56:18.880 --> 0:56:23.320 lot more complex since the early twentieth century. Just the 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:27.360 amount of earth that gets moved, the machinery that gets used, 0:56:28.000 --> 0:56:33.160 the agronomic expectations of golfers, the drainage and irrigation infrastructure, 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:39.440 the planning, the environmental regulations, all that stuff has started 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:43.360 to require I think a degree of professionalization that wasn't 0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:48.520 as important in the early twentieth century. But I do 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:53.680 think that a certain kind of amateurism or naivete might 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:56.920 be interesting to introduce into golf architecture, because once you 0:56:56.960 --> 0:57:00.440 get experienced, maybe you start to become a little more conative, 0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:03.319 because you know all the pitfalls when you look at 0:57:03.360 --> 0:57:07.200 the early work of certain architects like Somerset Hills Aw 0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:10.040 tilling Hast, when when you look at that course, you think, 0:57:10.719 --> 0:57:13.880 this guy didn't really know how he wanted to design 0:57:13.960 --> 0:57:16.000 a golf course. He didn't really know what a tilling 0:57:16.000 --> 0:57:19.200 Hast course was yet, and that makes the golf course 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:24.640 more interesting probably, And so allowing for a bit of 0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:29.040 inexperience to come back into golf architecture maybe wouldn't be 0:57:29.520 --> 0:57:33.280 a bad idea, but that needs to be tempered by 0:57:33.440 --> 0:57:38.400 or informed by experienced advisors and people who just kind of, 0:57:38.960 --> 0:57:41.120 you know, teach you how to do the thing. 0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:43.640 Yeah. 0:57:42.960 --> 0:57:46.640 I think that, like a lot of the fresh ideas 0:57:46.680 --> 0:57:52.080 come from when somebody doesn't know any better. Yeah, I 0:57:52.120 --> 0:57:58.240 think like again, like most innovation in society comes from outsiders. 0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:00.960 So yeah, I think that's why you see like a 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:05.840 lot of the great golf courses our first time efforts 0:58:05.960 --> 0:58:09.040 or like you know, and in the case of CEP McDonald, 0:58:09.120 --> 0:58:13.240 if you throw out Chicago Golf Club's first attempt, his 0:58:13.440 --> 0:58:16.200 greatest golf course is probably his first golf course. 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:18.680 And National Golf Links is so different from the original 0:58:18.720 --> 0:58:20.920 Chicago Golf Club that it might as well have been 0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:21.680 his first course. 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:22.800 Yeah. 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:27.320 And I think like the you know, the reality is 0:58:27.360 --> 0:58:30.200 like innovation, and then what happens is like especially with 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:33.760 modern designers, I think they get beat down by the developers, 0:58:34.920 --> 0:58:41.880 like developers are actually like in owners are constraints and 0:58:41.920 --> 0:58:45.280 they beat down on them, and over time it warps 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:49.200 their idea of whether they can what they can and 0:58:49.280 --> 0:58:53.160 can't do. When they have been told by or a 0:58:53.360 --> 0:58:56.880 owner developer numerous times that they can I don't want this, 0:58:57.520 --> 0:59:01.040 it becomes built in perception that people don't want this. 0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:07.440 The best way to innovate is to have a clear conscious, 0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:13.200 uh in free of preconceived notions. I think it's what's 0:59:13.240 --> 0:59:16.680 like fascinating is you know, Corn Crenshaw hired a lot 0:59:16.720 --> 0:59:20.120 of shapers who had no golf experience. And one of 0:59:20.120 --> 0:59:23.160 the reasons that one of the you know, huge advantages 0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.960 that presents is that they had never built golf for 0:59:26.960 --> 0:59:31.320 for Fasio or for you know, Robert Trent Jones or 0:59:31.560 --> 0:59:35.040 for you know, Pete Die and you know, and had 0:59:35.080 --> 0:59:38.520 those like built in memory of what they were building 0:59:38.520 --> 0:59:40.680 and they should do that. That's how they were able 0:59:40.720 --> 0:59:48.320 to get a new look. Outsiders provide new ideas, and 0:59:48.360 --> 0:59:51.480 that's why it's like really important for like young architects 0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:53.960 to get chances because they are going to be the 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:57.680 ones that usher in the next style of golf architecture. 0:59:58.320 --> 0:59:59.040 So yeah, I. 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:01.680 Think I think that are there's like a lot of 1:00:01.800 --> 1:00:08.160 credence to you know, the idea of early golf courses 1:00:08.240 --> 1:00:11.400 being sometimes the best, but other architects get better, they 1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:14.040 get more refined, and and I think like always like 1:00:14.080 --> 1:00:16.920 there are gonna be like issues with like first builds 1:00:17.320 --> 1:00:19.919 from people like that are going they're gonna learn more 1:00:19.960 --> 1:00:24.400 elegant drainage styles and different things. But some of the 1:00:24.400 --> 1:00:28.320 the ideas, the ideas behind the golf course are going 1:00:28.360 --> 1:00:30.520 to be the best ideas because they've thought about them 1:00:30.520 --> 1:00:33.120 for the longest period of time. Right. You think about 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:35.720 somebody who's like I've spent ten years thinking about this 1:00:35.800 --> 1:00:38.439 golf course I've been built. The first time I get 1:00:38.440 --> 1:00:42.000 a crack and it's those ideas and then it's you know, 1:00:42.400 --> 1:00:45.800 it's a lot like music music forres. Yeah, that made 1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:48.960 like how hard is it to have the second album 1:00:49.120 --> 1:00:52.280 is because they've the first album is a compilation of 1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:55.640 ideas their entire life has been devoted to, and then 1:00:55.720 --> 1:00:58.320 you have to create a second album in a year or. 1:00:58.520 --> 1:01:01.520 A golf course architecture song. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:01:02.000 --> 1:01:09.520 So So anyways, that that's that answer Grant Gates had had. 1:01:10.000 --> 1:01:12.000 He's tying this to our previous pot. I don't know 1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:14.360 if you listened, Garrett, but with Joseph we talked about 1:01:14.560 --> 1:01:19.080 the PGA Tour building a new slash mega site. What 1:01:19.200 --> 1:01:21.680 part of the US would you like to see it. 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:26.960 In, Well, the Pacific Northwest, of course, that would that 1:01:26.960 --> 1:01:28.760 would never happen. You know, they're going to build it 1:01:28.800 --> 1:01:31.520 in the southeast, but or they would build it in 1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:34.120 the southeast if they were to do this. I don't know, ideally. 1:01:34.880 --> 1:01:37.400 I know people get frustrated with the kind of West 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:41.600 Coast bias and emphasis and golf tournaments, but there's no 1:01:41.640 --> 1:01:46.320 doubt that West Coast venues occupy a nice little viewing 1:01:46.600 --> 1:01:50.120 window for at least most of the US, and so. 1:01:50.440 --> 1:01:55.360 They just have a big challenge in land costs, available land, 1:01:55.520 --> 1:01:59.960 natural resources, environmental restriction. 1:02:00.480 --> 1:02:05.120 Not to say there aren't some limitations, but the PGA 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:08.120 Tour can just bust right through those with private equity 1:02:08.200 --> 1:02:11.080 and you know, a little bit a little infusion from 1:02:11.080 --> 1:02:12.160 the sovereign Wealth Fund. Right. 1:02:13.160 --> 1:02:17.240 Well, yeah, I'll tell you where I don't need another 1:02:17.680 --> 1:02:21.320 another championship venue. 1:02:22.520 --> 1:02:27.800 Texas, Yeah, Texas or you know whatever, Florida for PGA 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:28.800 Tour events, but. 1:02:29.680 --> 1:02:32.440 Line up probably not either in terms that they've got 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:33.520 a lot of terms there. 1:02:34.000 --> 1:02:37.640 Yeah, I would say my real answer here is is 1:02:37.800 --> 1:02:41.120 a big city somewhere outside a big city somewhere. 1:02:42.480 --> 1:02:44.680 It's gonna be hard, I know, I. 1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:48.960 Know, but we're being asked where we would want about. Oh, 1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:50.760 Cobbs Creek would be great. But I think they're doing 1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:54.640 something different there than looking for championships. 1:02:54.040 --> 1:02:56.600 Right, Yeah, I feel like that would have been that 1:02:56.720 --> 1:02:59.200 was a golf course that was when it was built, 1:02:59.360 --> 1:03:02.520 considered as good as anything else. 1:03:02.680 --> 1:03:06.000 Yeah, And in Philadelphia for people who don't know, but 1:03:06.040 --> 1:03:10.240 they're currently doing something there that is more focused on community, 1:03:11.040 --> 1:03:15.080 giving back to the community as opposed to attracting championships necessarily. 1:03:24.320 --> 1:03:26.800 All right, let's take a quick break here before we 1:03:26.840 --> 1:03:29.320 get to our next question. Talk about our friends at 1:03:29.440 --> 1:03:34.720 mob Jack. That's mob Ja, K. 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No no spaces in upgrade your belt 1:05:02.800 --> 1:05:05.840 game today. All right, let's get to the next question 1:05:05.920 --> 1:05:17.360 here with Garrett. All right, uh, well, we'll get to 1:05:17.440 --> 1:05:22.320 Dogwood Maple's question here. Which of the upcoming men's major 1:05:22.440 --> 1:05:27.280 champion venue championship venues are you most and least interested 1:05:27.560 --> 1:05:28.520 in viewing? 1:05:28.680 --> 1:05:29.160 And why? 1:05:29.480 --> 1:05:32.640 Fascinating name? First of all, Dogwood Maple? Is that a 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:34.560 Is that a real name or is that a that 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:37.800 a non de plume? What is a Dogwood Maple? Was 1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:41.240 that on Friday Golf Club? I think it was, Yeah, 1:05:41.560 --> 1:05:45.040 Dogwood Maple. Maybe maybe that's the the guy or Gal's 1:05:45.360 --> 1:05:45.880 given name. 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:49.360 If so, makes me, makes me think of Maplewood Brewery 1:05:49.560 --> 1:05:50.840 in Chicago. 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:54.880 Makes me think of the Yeah, makes me think of 1:05:54.880 --> 1:05:58.680 of Augusta National mainly. But in any case, Dogwood Maple. 1:05:59.360 --> 1:06:02.840 Most of the least interesting upcoming US Open, PGA slash 1:06:02.960 --> 1:06:09.080 Open venues, I would say the upcoming PGA championship lineup, 1:06:09.200 --> 1:06:11.840 which is at this moment for the rest of the 1:06:11.840 --> 1:06:17.240 twenty twenties, ironomanc, PGA, Frisco, Olympic Club, Baltis Rawl and 1:06:17.240 --> 1:06:20.920 then Congressional in twenty thirty. All of those I'm pretty 1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:23.880 interested in, really, once we've gotten past quil Hollow here, 1:06:24.560 --> 1:06:28.440 I'm I'm pretty in on the future PGA Championship venues. 1:06:28.480 --> 1:06:31.320 I'm not saying that they're all going to be super interesting, 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:34.959 but they're I'm looking forward to seeing all of them 1:06:35.080 --> 1:06:38.400 in different ways. Maybe Ironomank the least, because we have 1:06:38.560 --> 1:06:40.920 seen that and we've seen at the PGA Tour events 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:44.560 that IRONOMC has held that it doesn't necessarily do anything 1:06:44.680 --> 1:06:50.440 that interesting. I'm hoping that it'll be firm, but in May, 1:06:51.240 --> 1:06:56.320 I'm not sure that that's a reasonable expectation for Philadelphia. 1:06:56.800 --> 1:07:02.240 But Olympic Club has been restored slash renovated by Gil 1:07:02.280 --> 1:07:05.560 Hants fairly recently, saying with Baltus Roll Congressional has a 1:07:05.560 --> 1:07:09.240 brand new design courtesy of Andrew Green. So all of 1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:11.720 those I'm kind of looking forward to. But of them, 1:07:11.760 --> 1:07:14.720 I would say Baltus rall I'm most interested in. And 1:07:14.760 --> 1:07:18.920 then of the future US Open venues, Marion in twenty 1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:22.440 thirty is one that I'm really looking forward to. Shinnecock 1:07:22.480 --> 1:07:24.240 Hills next year is going to be great, but we 1:07:24.320 --> 1:07:25.680 kind of know what to expect. 1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:26.640 With the rollbackball. 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:31.680 Yeah, yeah, it could be and recently again restored by 1:07:31.720 --> 1:07:35.160 our Open doctor Gil Hans. But I am looking forward 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:37.720 to seeing what Marion does that's different from the last 1:07:37.720 --> 1:07:40.240 time it held the US Open, which was basically just 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:47.720 all about rough least interesting. You know, Pebble Beach is 1:07:47.760 --> 1:07:49.640 just going to be what it is. They're not making 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:52.439 any moves there to improve that golf course in any 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.320 significant way, and so in twenty twenty seven for the 1:07:55.400 --> 1:07:57.560 US Open, we're just going to get Pebble Beach as 1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:00.560 it usually is, and then next year a Rolldale. I 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:03.240 am interested in seeing what mackenzie and Ebert have done 1:08:03.280 --> 1:08:06.200 there because it seems like they've done some provocative things, 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:10.440 including a brand new par three that faces in an 1:08:10.520 --> 1:08:14.080 esthetically pleasing way at the clubhouse. So good thing they 1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:14.400 have that. 1:08:14.560 --> 1:08:16.880 Now hopefully members can play it this time. 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:19.640 Yeah, yeah, hopefully they don't have to. I think I 1:08:19.680 --> 1:08:21.000 think the routing is a little better. 1:08:21.520 --> 1:08:23.280 They don't have to walk backwards walk. 1:08:23.520 --> 1:08:25.000 They just don't walk to the next hole. 1:08:25.000 --> 1:08:27.080 They don't just skip the hole and make it a 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:29.160 seventeen old round because they're like, I don't want to 1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:33.400 deal with that one but Royal Birkdale has always been 1:08:33.520 --> 1:08:37.880 kind of my one of my least favorite of the 1:08:37.920 --> 1:08:40.960 Open road to venues that there's there's not much there 1:08:41.000 --> 1:08:45.080 that I'm that fascinated by, but it's fine and so yeah, 1:08:45.120 --> 1:08:46.960 and then in the future for the Open, they're going 1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:51.280 to go to Portmarnock eventually, maybe before the decade is out, 1:08:51.360 --> 1:08:54.080 and I'll be fascinated to see how that goes. 1:08:56.800 --> 1:09:01.640 I would say most interested. Listen, I'm just gonna try 1:09:01.680 --> 1:09:07.639 and dig here. This might be I'm actually I'll say 1:09:07.720 --> 1:09:10.679 most interested in twenty twenty eight wing Foot I'm very 1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:14.640 curious about golf course setup. Yeah, at that point. 1:09:14.360 --> 1:09:16.160 What are they going to do differently than they did 1:09:16.400 --> 1:09:17.240 in twenty twenty. 1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:20.880 I can't imagine they roll out what they rolled out 1:09:20.920 --> 1:09:24.559 in twenty twenty. That was a really bad setup. And 1:09:24.640 --> 1:09:28.799 I think like there's a lot of things with those greens. 1:09:29.520 --> 1:09:33.320 They pretty much they took one of the five greatest 1:09:33.360 --> 1:09:36.880 sets of greens in American golf and made them as 1:09:37.280 --> 1:09:42.960 uninteresting as you possibly could with their setup. And well, 1:09:43.360 --> 1:09:48.120 they're fascinating greens. And when you make the fairways twenty 1:09:48.160 --> 1:09:51.599 five yards wide and have very thick rough on each side, 1:09:52.439 --> 1:09:56.200 you kind of reduce what those greens how they can play. 1:09:56.880 --> 1:10:02.920 And it became the strongest fastest player one because he 1:10:02.920 --> 1:10:05.000 he and I want to say that this was like 1:10:05.640 --> 1:10:09.800 an incredible approach to the golf course. He just hit 1:10:09.840 --> 1:10:12.160 it as far as he could to the side of 1:10:12.200 --> 1:10:16.760 the hole. That allowed him an open approach to the greens. Now, 1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:19.479 like people would say, like just grow the rough up more, 1:10:19.840 --> 1:10:24.400 that's just that's the natural thing to do, to think, 1:10:24.479 --> 1:10:27.479 and that will just play more into Bryson's hands. And 1:10:27.520 --> 1:10:30.280 I want to say it was an incredible game plan, 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:33.920 an incredible execution of said game plan. He played really 1:10:33.960 --> 1:10:38.360 well to win, and it was a championship well earned. 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:41.240 But like a way I would mitigate that is with 1:10:41.360 --> 1:10:45.439 like less less rough because then it's not just like 1:10:45.680 --> 1:10:48.880 about getting to the angle and running it up and 1:10:48.960 --> 1:10:53.760 only one player or ten players have the strength and 1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:58.920 power to do said said strategy. I'd also widen the 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:01.479 fairways a little, because nobody can hit a lot. 1:11:01.400 --> 1:11:02.160 Of fairways there. 1:11:02.280 --> 1:11:06.400 So I'm very interested in the setup of that one. 1:11:07.080 --> 1:11:09.560 I would say I would echo your thoughts on Birkedale. 1:11:09.800 --> 1:11:10.439 It just like. 1:11:12.720 --> 1:11:16.760 I get variety, I get different parts of the I 1:11:16.800 --> 1:11:19.320 know it does really well from like a venue standpoint, 1:11:19.320 --> 1:11:24.599 from financially speaking, but like the Open Championship is I 1:11:24.640 --> 1:11:27.680 want to go. I want to go to old golf courses. 1:11:27.960 --> 1:11:31.479 This is a nineteen fifties golf course and it's got 1:11:31.479 --> 1:11:33.800 a nice list of winners. But at the end of 1:11:33.800 --> 1:11:38.200 the day, I love the Open going to old links 1:11:38.240 --> 1:11:42.720 golf courses and this is this is this, ain't it 1:11:42.800 --> 1:11:43.080 for me? 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:46.679 And uh, you know what word the pros most often 1:11:46.760 --> 1:11:48.439 used to Berkdale. 1:11:48.960 --> 1:11:50.800 Yeah, fair right in front of you. 1:11:50.960 --> 1:11:55.599 The most fair course on the Open. Roda PJ right now, 1:11:55.640 --> 1:11:59.519 by the way, is requesting that we layer in the 1:11:59.560 --> 1:12:02.120 siren as a as a sound effect. 1:12:02.600 --> 1:12:07.080 Just to make it clear who is the primary should 1:12:07.120 --> 1:12:08.160 not have even brought it up. 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:11.280 You really you really broke down the fourth wall there. 1:12:11.320 --> 1:12:13.240 That's not the right term, but something happened there that 1:12:13.320 --> 1:12:14.200 was a little disturbing. 1:12:15.479 --> 1:12:18.559 Yeah, I'm very happy about the PGA, as you allude to. 1:12:19.000 --> 1:12:23.160 I'm quite happy that we're past Quail Hollow and Valhalla. 1:12:23.240 --> 1:12:25.679 Yeah, we're getting We're getting to a cool stretch here, 1:12:25.880 --> 1:12:28.400 not necessarily of courses that are the greatest courses in 1:12:28.439 --> 1:12:29.920 the world. I mean a lot of them, are sort 1:12:29.920 --> 1:12:33.599 of like the the US Open cast offs, the courses 1:12:33.640 --> 1:12:37.640 that were that were not deemed worthy for the the 1:12:37.680 --> 1:12:40.800 new US Open Rhoda. But the fact that we're going 1:12:41.120 --> 1:12:46.080 to good quality courses that have recently recently had interesting 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:48.040 work done is appealing to me. 1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:52.920 One that is actually I was just thinking about that 1:12:53.000 --> 1:12:59.040 could be extra fascinating is that one of my one 1:12:59.080 --> 1:13:01.439 of my favorite things about the Olympic Club is that 1:13:01.520 --> 1:13:04.000 it naturally rolls you back. When you go play the 1:13:04.000 --> 1:13:07.439 Olympic Club, you do not hit the ball very far 1:13:07.680 --> 1:13:12.000 because of the weather. It is cold, is damp always, 1:13:12.160 --> 1:13:17.920 it's experience. Yeah, it just the ball goes nowhere. And uh, 1:13:18.560 --> 1:13:20.439 you know, I play there a couple of times a year, 1:13:20.600 --> 1:13:24.479 and I can attest that the ball goes significantly shorter. 1:13:25.600 --> 1:13:28.200 Twenty twenty eight, it will be the second major played 1:13:28.400 --> 1:13:33.080 with the roll back ball. Conditions are a roll back 1:13:33.200 --> 1:13:35.920 The ball could be going nowhere. It could be it 1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:36.799 could be awesome. 1:13:37.800 --> 1:13:40.599 We might we might have some unhappy boys. 1:13:40.800 --> 1:13:46.200 And you're playing on like the side of the mountain, which, yeah, 1:13:46.240 --> 1:13:50.680 which is like, it's kind of I think Olympic is 1:13:50.880 --> 1:13:54.600 Olympics kind of underrated. Is it my favorite course to 1:13:54.600 --> 1:13:58.519 play every day. No, does it ask you to hit 1:13:58.600 --> 1:14:02.320 a very very wide range of shots throughout throughout the 1:14:02.320 --> 1:14:06.160 course of a round. Absolutely. I think like there might 1:14:06.200 --> 1:14:10.960 be a case that like very severe topography, while not 1:14:11.680 --> 1:14:17.240 enjoyable for everyday play, is actually very much a quality 1:14:18.160 --> 1:14:21.400 that would that would be good for championship golf. 1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:24.960 That's sort of what the Olympic Club brings to the table, right, 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:28.840 That's its X factor is how severely tilted that land 1:14:28.960 --> 1:14:31.240 is and the fact that you're hitting some of these 1:14:31.280 --> 1:14:33.519 crazy shots with the ball way below your feet or 1:14:33.560 --> 1:14:37.720 the ball way above your feed. It's a characteristic national Yeah. 1:14:37.760 --> 1:14:42.840 Two and fairly petite targets, right, And so what it 1:14:42.880 --> 1:14:45.040 brings to the table is kind of what Pebble Beach 1:14:45.680 --> 1:14:48.120 brings to the table. That's interesting, these tilts and these 1:14:48.120 --> 1:14:50.800 small targets, But Olympic Club does it in a more 1:14:50.880 --> 1:14:56.000 severe way, and so it's probably more interesting in that regard. 1:14:57.439 --> 1:14:59.920 All Right, I think that does it. Well. We can 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:02.519 get to more of these questions maybe in club TFE. 1:15:03.800 --> 1:15:04.880 Yeah, I'll get. 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:07.360 In there and answer some questions, and yeah, a lot 1:15:07.360 --> 1:15:10.240 of a lot of good, good material here from from 1:15:10.560 --> 1:15:12.200 Friday Golf club members. 1:15:22.800 --> 1:15:23.360 That does it. 1:15:23.920 --> 1:15:27.120 Big thanks for you guys for listening, but also for 1:15:27.200 --> 1:15:30.280 PJ Clark. I promised him no cuts, but I forgot 1:15:30.479 --> 1:15:33.160 to do our second ad, so he's gonna have to 1:15:33.240 --> 1:15:36.960 put it in there. Bigness by me the host. The 1:15:37.000 --> 1:15:41.759 host blew through the break, and big thanks for PJ 1:15:42.200 --> 1:15:45.120 making up and work extra hard today. We'll be back 1:15:45.200 --> 1:15:45.759 next week. 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:48.000 I think I'm gonna do something. 1:15:47.680 --> 1:15:50.439 On the Ryder Cup next week, so we'll we'll get 1:15:50.439 --> 1:15:53.080 a couple of guests and batter around the Ryder Cup 1:15:53.120 --> 1:15:56.080 where we stand what we're hoping to see for each 1:15:56.120 --> 1:16:00.160 side coming down the stretch, and it feels like the 1:16:00.200 --> 1:16:02.599 right time for a little Ryder Cup check in on 1:16:02.640 --> 1:16:03.400 this podcast. 1:16:03.760 --> 1:16:05.000 Thanks Garrett for coming on. 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:08.640 As always is a pleasure to UH to have you on. 1:16:09.120 --> 1:16:11.000 Thanks Andy,