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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set's podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is producer Howard Benson. Howard, we had

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Speaker 1: to delay this because of issues with the fire. So

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Speaker 1: how did that work out for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, we were in at fire ready set evacuation spots,

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Speaker 2: so we didn't have to evacuate, but we had to

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Speaker 2: get ready to evacuate. So we were as most people

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Speaker 2: were running around the house trying to figure out what

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Speaker 2: to do. I was tearing the studio apart, trying to

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Speaker 2: get the microphones, like the Sony C eight hundred, which

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Speaker 2: is irreplaceable. So yeah, most of my stuff is in

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Speaker 2: the cloud, but there was a bunch of other things.

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Speaker 2: And then we had the fire that broke out up

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Speaker 2: north of us, the Kenneth Fire, so that we were

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Speaker 2: just surrounded. Look, we're lucky. We're one of the lucky ones.

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Speaker 2: All we had to do is just sit and wait.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it's just terrible what happened to everybody else.

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Speaker 2: Just you know, I was down in Santa Monica a

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Speaker 2: few days ago and you could smell the it's just

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Speaker 2: you know, the smoke still down there.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so you talk about your studio, you have

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Speaker 1: a studio in the home.

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Speaker 2: I have a studio here and I have a studio

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Speaker 2: on Woodland Hills, and the actually studio in Woodland Hills is

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Speaker 2: where we were going to evacuate too. That's where my

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Speaker 2: daughter lives. And I owned that studio for about twelve years.

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Speaker 2: I bought it from a guy that worked at Disney

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Speaker 2: and it was at Disney Studio, so it wasn't very soundproof.

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Speaker 2: We had to really we had to bring a console

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Speaker 2: in from Scotland and refurbish it. So we rebuilt the

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Speaker 2: studio and that's what I've done most of my records

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Speaker 2: in the last twelve thirteen years. But the home studio

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Speaker 2: here is where i do all my vocals, and the

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Speaker 2: vocals I'm kind of known for vocals. That's like part

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Speaker 2: of my you know, white people hire me. So I

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Speaker 2: have a vocal booth back there and I have you know,

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Speaker 2: we're all wired into the other studio with a curs

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Speaker 2: and all that kind of stuff. So while I'm doing

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Speaker 2: work here and the other studio, they're doing tracking and

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Speaker 2: doing all the other stuff the guitars based drums. You know,

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Speaker 2: we still are kind of a traditional recording business. You know,

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Speaker 2: we still record with real instruments. That's not to say

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Speaker 2: we don't usual you know, we still do a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, programming and all that, but people come

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Speaker 2: to us because they like the sound of real things

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Speaker 2: and they like the sound of humans in projects. So

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Speaker 2: that's kind of like our you know, there was a

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Speaker 2: moment there where were like, uh, oh, we're going to

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Speaker 2: all be replaced by you know, an AI or something.

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Speaker 2: But then we realize that there's actually more of a

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Speaker 2: demand for real things than you know, there still is

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Speaker 2: out there. So yeah, so all the vocals are done here.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the room. So the room

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Speaker 1: you have in Woodland Hills, do you only use it

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Speaker 1: yourself or do you have other people use the room?

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Speaker 2: Right now, it's mostly my projects and my engineer Mike Plotnikoff,

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Speaker 2: who is now a producer, and Joe Rickard. So these

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Speaker 2: are guys that you know, back maybe ten years ago

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Speaker 2: where my engineers and mostly doing that for me. But

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Speaker 2: they've got their own clients now, so they leased the

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Speaker 2: studio from me and I kind of give them a

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Speaker 2: really good deal for that. I have another producer named

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Speaker 2: Lenny Skolnick who works there, so we try to keep

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Speaker 2: it within our group of people that we know, because

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a lot of gear there, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff. We don't really have a staff that

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Speaker 2: can accommodate different producers with different types of methodologies of working, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, and we're also really busy, honestly, like we

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Speaker 2: are always booked, so we you know, I even have

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Speaker 2: trouble with getting my projects in there. So it's mostly

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Speaker 2: my stuff, Mike's stuff, Joe's stuff, and mostly honestly, in

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Speaker 2: the last four years has been Judge and Jury, the

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Speaker 2: record company that I own along with Neil Sanderson from

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Speaker 2: Three Days Grace he's my partner, and my son Grady,

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Speaker 2: who runs the company. So we use that studio to

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Speaker 2: record most of our music there.

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Speaker 1: And you know, okay, so most of the big studios

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Speaker 1: closed to what degree is your studio Woodland Hill's equivalent,

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Speaker 1: like with a big room and certain equipment, just that

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Speaker 1: it's basically controlled by you and not used by outside

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Speaker 1: sources or would you go to another studio maybe to

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Speaker 1: cut basics.

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Speaker 2: No, we can do it all there. We have it

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Speaker 2: all worked out. I mean the room you know now

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Speaker 2: that we've had the room for you know, you know,

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Speaker 2: at thirteen twelve thirteen years. We know how to get

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Speaker 2: a great drum sound out of that, so we don't

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Speaker 2: have to go anywhere else. We can do strings there.

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Speaker 2: Our console is an eighty fifty eight Knive, an original

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Speaker 2: Rupert Neve console with twenty four inputs. We have all

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Speaker 2: the analog year you want, amplifiers, everything. The only thing

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Speaker 2: we have to do is when we switch from guitars

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Speaker 2: and bass to drums, we have to tear it apart

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Speaker 2: and rebuild put it together, you know, so we have

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Speaker 2: the room with it, you know, like we're doing drums.

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Speaker 2: We don't want to have the amps taking up the

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Speaker 2: room space. So you have to do a lot of

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Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. But we really don't have to

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Speaker 2: go anywhere. The only place we go is to do vocals.

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Speaker 2: And I like doing vocals in my home studio because

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Speaker 2: I have a folk booth build here.

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Speaker 1: Okay for that? So how big is the room in

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Speaker 1: Woodland Hills.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question. It's I don't know, Like,

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Speaker 2: can I ask my engineer. He's right here, sure, how

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Speaker 2: big is it? It's Wooland Hills room, do you think, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like the size of two garage too. It's okay.

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Speaker 2: So it was originally built for an RV, which I

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Speaker 2: just found out. We found the original plans. So it's

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Speaker 2: the size of like a two car garage, A big

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Speaker 2: two car garage would be the live room right. Then

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Speaker 2: the console room is about the same size, so that's

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Speaker 2: you can and then there's a separate room for putting

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Speaker 2: guitar amps. So there's a third room that you can

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Speaker 2: use to isolate. Then there's a fourth room that was

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Speaker 2: a bedroom that we use for all our pro tools

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Speaker 2: work and you know, just a programming. It's kind of big, actually,

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Speaker 2: and it's attached to the house. I'm not sure if

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Speaker 2: it's legally attached or not. When I bought it, it

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Speaker 2: was set up like that, so we just kind of

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Speaker 2: kept it, and you know, it works for us.

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Speaker 1: Well how about you know they've been cracked down on

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Speaker 1: home studios, how about zoning?

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Speaker 2: You wanted something. When we walked in there, we were

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Speaker 2: actually very worried about that, and then we realized after

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Speaker 2: the first we actually had all these plans to mitigate

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Speaker 2: the sound. We realized the neighbors with the kids were

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Speaker 2: louder than we were, so we actually are the quietest

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Speaker 2: people on the block. We have it so soundproofed, and

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Speaker 2: we make sure that our clients are very when they

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Speaker 2: come into the It's a flag loot by the way,

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Speaker 2: so it's in the back so you don't see it

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Speaker 2: from the street. Everybody takes super care to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we are the least obtrusive people on the block.

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Speaker 2: So nobody's asked us any questions. We have had the

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Speaker 2: city out there. They have filmed some stuff there because

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Speaker 2: it's a pretty cool filming location, being a flag loot

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Speaker 2: and having a lot of land. It's a half an

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Speaker 2: acre of land actually, and so we won't run into anything.

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Speaker 2: We haven't had any problems at all.

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Speaker 1: Okay since the city was there. Technically is it legal?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, they've walked around it and we've you know,

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Speaker 2: refinanced it and everything. So we just I know that

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Speaker 2: there's some things I wouldn't want to dig into. Let's

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Speaker 2: put it that way. You know, like there's some paperwork

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Speaker 2: I can't find from the original owner. He basically didn't

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Speaker 2: pay his property taxes and left fast. So we got

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Speaker 2: a really good deal in the house. That's you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of what happened.

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Speaker 1: So how did you sound proof it?

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Speaker 2: It's really interesting. We got a guy in there named

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Speaker 2: Matt Ellingson and he was kind of built Bay seven

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Speaker 2: Studios in North Hollywood. That's where I came from. I

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Speaker 2: was there for about twelve years. That's where I made

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Speaker 2: all these records, the Mike Camp stuff. Everything was done there,

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Speaker 2: and we just kind of said, okay, this is okay

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Speaker 2: for doing trumpets and violins and Disney stuff. But we

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Speaker 2: put on an extra I would say, about two inches

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Speaker 2: of insulation on the interior of the house all aroun

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Speaker 2: round it. And it worked. You know, we were kind

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Speaker 2: of estimating, honestly, we didn't really do it that technically.

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Speaker 2: We figured, okay, if we point to guitar amps this direction,

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Speaker 2: we do the drums that direction. We you know, we

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Speaker 2: insulate the walls that are towards the outside of the

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Speaker 2: studio very well. We also, the bigger problem wasn't this

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Speaker 2: actually the sound going out to the neighbors. It was

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Speaker 2: the sound coming into the control room. We couldn't even

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Speaker 2: play a guitar without hearing it in the control room.

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Speaker 2: That we had to do a lot of work to

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Speaker 2: isolate that. You know, somebody said, I think it was

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Speaker 2: you know, Massenberg or something that you have to look

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Speaker 2: at sound as water. If there's a leak, it's going

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Speaker 2: to come through. So we had to make sure that

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Speaker 2: there were no leaks, like everything was plugged up. So

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Speaker 2: it took us about two or three weeks. We actually

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Speaker 2: went through a kind of a bit of a thing

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Speaker 2: where we were thinking, maybe we'll put everything in the

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Speaker 2: other garage on the other side of the house and

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Speaker 2: run tie lines in so we don't have the sound.

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Speaker 2: But that just turned into a bit of a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: So we you know, hey, we can run these full

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Speaker 2: on marshal amps at full blast and we don't have

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Speaker 2: any problem with it at all. So we did it

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Speaker 2: pretty you know, we had to do a few adjustments

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Speaker 2: later on with it to make it work, but I

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Speaker 2: think we have it pretty well now. It's been working

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Speaker 2: pretty well and no complaints, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So why would you not cut vocals there and

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Speaker 1: do the vocals in your house.

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Speaker 2: That's a personal thing that I liked. I liked to

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Speaker 2: be with the singer, with my engineer Hatch, who is

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Speaker 2: here away from the There's so much going on at

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Speaker 2: the studio, people coming in and out. It actually is distracting.

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Speaker 2: And I've always kind of liked to do vocals one

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Speaker 2: on one with singers. That's just something I like to do.

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Speaker 2: I like to have a It's a very personal thing

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Speaker 2: for singers to sing and when I can just talk

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Speaker 2: to them. In fact, I don't even have a talkback.

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Speaker 2: I use an open mic, so there's never me pushing

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Speaker 2: a button. They can always hear what I'm saying, so

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Speaker 2: there's never the thought that I'm saying something about them.

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Speaker 2: I learned that early on when I worked with Al

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Speaker 2: McKay from Earth withinin Fire. He was one of the

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Speaker 2: first people I came out to LA and worked with

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Speaker 2: and I did vocals with him, and I realized how

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Speaker 2: the talkback button can get you in trouble if you

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Speaker 2: say something you don't realize somebody pressed it or didn't

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Speaker 2: press it. So I said, you know what, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to have a talkback, but I'm going to leave

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Speaker 2: the mic open. So right here is a fifty seven

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Speaker 2: that's always on. Singer is in the vocal booth. They

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Speaker 2: can always hear what I'm thinking and saying. I could

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Speaker 2: hear what they're thinking and saying, and it keeps it

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Speaker 2: more honest. It doesn't it's not like they're thinking, oh,

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Speaker 2: Howard doesn't like this, or he's saying something to the engineer,

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Speaker 2: or he's you know. I think it just keeps more

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Speaker 2: of an honest relationship between me and the singer. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I just like a smaller room. The room in

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Speaker 2: the studio is a little too big, honestly, the vocal

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Speaker 2: booth is and even when we try and put like

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Speaker 2: baffles around it still a little bit here. It's a

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Speaker 2: dead room. It's actually a room, believe it or not.

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Speaker 2: When we built this house, the contractor had an attic

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Speaker 2: space that was nothing in it, and I kept saying

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Speaker 2: to my wife Monica, what's in that attic space, Like,

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Speaker 2: there's nothing. I don't know what's there. So had him

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Speaker 2: come back and he knocked a hole in the wall.

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Speaker 2: There's this big empty attic and I said, you know,

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Speaker 2: being a producer, vocal booth. So I had the same guy,

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Speaker 2: Matt who helped us at the studio, come in and

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Speaker 2: build a soundproof vocal booth, hardwired microphones. There's a Leslie

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Speaker 2: cabinet back there from my Ham and Oregon, all wired

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Speaker 2: up ready to go. Because I love putting organ on stuff.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I have a good relationship with my singers

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Speaker 2: they come here, they know it's by the way. They

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Speaker 2: also sometimes don't like singing around their band members and

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Speaker 2: that kind of takes them out of that place. So

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Speaker 2: they can sing with me and you know, we can

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Speaker 2: talk honestly about things or not having somebody say hey,

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Speaker 2: try this or try that. You know, it doesn't interrupt

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Speaker 2: the flow. So I got used to that. I've been

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Speaker 2: doing it like that for twenty years. Even at Base

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Speaker 2: seven when I was there, I had my own vocal

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Speaker 2: booth area where it wasn't part of the studio. I

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Speaker 2: had the owner build it in the attic there and

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Speaker 2: we would have them climb up a staircase and it

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Speaker 2: would just be me and the singer and my engineer, Hatch,

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Speaker 2: and that was it. You know, that's that's the only

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Speaker 2: people there.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when someone's in the vocal booth working with you

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Speaker 1: at home, can they see you?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: And I can't see them?

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Speaker 1: And is that conscious or the way the room worked out?

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Speaker 2: That's the way I like it. I like it like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what they're doing in there, you know,

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Speaker 2: they I just need great vocals so they can just

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Speaker 2: do whatever they want, you know, as long as I

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Speaker 2: can tell, you know, when they're not up on the

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Speaker 2: mic and something's off. But in there they have they

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Speaker 2: can adjust their own levels too, So we have a

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Speaker 2: separate mixer in there where they can adjust their volume

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Speaker 2: of their vocal. They can adjust the volume of the

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Speaker 2: track so they don't have to talk to me about

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Speaker 2: that stuff. They can just sit there with their hands

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Speaker 2: on the thing, so they can go over it and

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Speaker 2: they can adjust like you know, a lot of times

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Speaker 2: the singer will go, oh, turn me up, turn me down.

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Speaker 2: It's not this, there's not that here. They can just

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Speaker 2: do it all on their own, and so they have

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Speaker 2: more control over their own sound. You know, it works

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Speaker 2: out really well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you're saying you're known for your vocals, you're

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Speaker 1: cutting them in your house. You know, you're keeping your

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Speaker 1: mic live the whole time. What else is involved in

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Speaker 1: your special sauce.

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Speaker 2: We have a Sony C eight hundred mike that I

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Speaker 2: got after I did the Hoobastank song The Reason, which

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Speaker 2: was a pretty big song for me. I didn't like

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Speaker 2: I heard the song on the radio when I was

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Speaker 2: driving around, and I didn't like how it sounded. I

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Speaker 2: was using an eighty seven or a sixty seven. I

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Speaker 2: forget what mike it was. I remember said to my engineer,

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Speaker 2: you know what, I think, this doesn't sound hyped enough

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Speaker 2: for me. It just sounds too dull. So we he suggested, Hey,

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Speaker 2: we should use this new mic. It just came out

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Speaker 2: the Sony C eight hundred. It's a much more hyped

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Speaker 2: up mic, much more top end, more strident. But we

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Speaker 2: need to have a knave like ten eighty seven or

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Speaker 2: something like that to calm it down a little bit.

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Speaker 2: And then a compressor A tube in fact, is right

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Speaker 2: in front of me, the kneve and the tube tech.

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Speaker 2: It goes right from the mic to the kneve to

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Speaker 2: the twuoe tech straight into pro tools. That's it. Nothing

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Speaker 2: else is going on now to me. The special sauce

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Speaker 2: is coming back to the singer's headphones. Is a much

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Speaker 2: more compressed version of their vocal. We're not recording it compressed,

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Speaker 2: but I have it slammed going into their headphones so

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Speaker 2: they can get on the mic off the mic, and

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Speaker 2: it's just like this, and they sound amazing in their headphones.

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Speaker 2: And I've always believed that the headphone mix is a

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Speaker 2: huge part of getting a good vocal out of a singer.

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Speaker 2: If they don't sound good in their headphones, they don't

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Speaker 2: think they're going to sound good.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't use auto tune. I know a lot of

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Speaker 2: people do that. I don't do that, but I have

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Speaker 2: it so that the level is not changing very much

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Speaker 2: in their headphones. It's a very static level. I'll worry

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Speaker 2: about it on my end, do you know what I mean? Right,

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Speaker 2: they're not I'm not going to have them worry about it. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's part of my special sauce is that, you know,

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Speaker 2: and if they want a little rever, a little rever,

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Speaker 2: if they want some of that, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, starting like forty five years ago, they started to

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Speaker 1: com vocals, etc. What's your style in terms of cutting.

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Speaker 2: I learned how to comp vocals from the greatest of

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Speaker 2: all time to meet Keith Olsen. Keith was one of

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Speaker 2: my mentors, and we would sit and do vocals on

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Speaker 2: tape back then and have them graded, and every line

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Speaker 2: had a grade on it, and you got a seven

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Speaker 2: for just being in the vocal booth, and if it

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Speaker 2: was a really good vocal, you got a nine. So

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Speaker 2: and I always said to him, why is it seven

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Speaker 2: to nine? And he goes, because you're here it's a

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Speaker 2: seven because you're even in the studio, and nobody gets

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Speaker 2: a ten because nobody's good enough. So basically we would

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Speaker 2: go through every line and grade them seven, eight, nine,

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Speaker 2: and there'd be three or four people grading it. Then

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Speaker 2: we would take that give it to the engineer. They

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Speaker 2: would comp the vocal like that. So I learned how

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Speaker 2: to listen very critically through things with him. And he

333
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Speaker 2: was a genius at doing vocals. He did all those Fleetwood,

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Speaker 2: Mac and White Snake records. And you know, I can't

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Speaker 2: credit him enough for teaching me how to be a

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Speaker 2: real per, how to handle myself in the studio, and

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Speaker 2: just you know how important vocals were because he cared

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Speaker 2: about I mean, he was the rest of the track

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Speaker 2: was important to him, But the vocals are when I

340
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Speaker 2: could see his brain really click on, you know, where

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Speaker 2: like this is the melody, this is the harmonies have

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Speaker 2: to be here, this is where it fits in the track.

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Speaker 2: We don't have enough space. There's all this kind of

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Speaker 2: stuff that I picked up from him.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Traditionally the vocals are cut last. Is that what

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: No, I cut them right away as soon as I

348
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Speaker 2: have In fact, i'm cutting three days Grace. Today we're

349
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Speaker 2: just working to demos. You know, they're going to cut

350
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Speaker 2: the rest of the stuff in the studio, the bass,

351
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Speaker 2: guitar and drums, following what the demo is. But I'm

352
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Speaker 2: going to cut the vocals to the demo because I

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Speaker 2: know it's close enough. I don't need the rest of

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Speaker 2: the track for that. In fact, I think that's a

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Speaker 2: huge mistake cutting them lost. I think that makes them

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Speaker 2: sound like they're the least important thing. To me, they're

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Speaker 2: the most important thing. I want to get the vocals

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Speaker 2: done right away, because what if I have to redo them,

359
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, or I want to change them or something.

360
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Speaker 2: So I think producers. I don't see producers making that steak,

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Speaker 2: although I guess they do, because you know, you might

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Speaker 2: be maybe they do, but I don't. I don't do that,

363
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Speaker 2: like I think that's the number. To me, you're walking

364
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Speaker 2: through CVS and you're hearing your song on that little speaker,

365
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Speaker 2: what are you hearing vocals? That's it? So to me,

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Speaker 2: that's what matters. I honestly, the rest of the stuff,

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Speaker 2: I don't care if it's a strat or a less paul.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what strings they're using. I don't care

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Speaker 2: what you know, drumheads, because if the vocal isn't good

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Speaker 2: and the song isn't good and the lyrics aren't good,

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Speaker 2: it's not good to me. That's how I think about it,

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Speaker 2: And that's kind of when I started having hits, by

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Speaker 2: the way, it is when I started thinking that way,

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Speaker 2: you know.

375
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Speaker 1: Generally speaking, when someone's here cutting vocals with you, are

376
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Speaker 1: you cutting song by song? Do you like the whole

377
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Speaker 1: album written? What do you do?

378
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,919
Speaker 2: I do it song by song. But I'm still an

379
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Speaker 2: album guy. I love albums. You know, a lot of

380
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,800
Speaker 2: the bands I produce still make albums, but the albums

381
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 2: aren't made the way they used to be in a

382
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,000
Speaker 2: six week period. They're made over a lot of time

383
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Speaker 2: in between bands touring schedules and everything else. You know,

384
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Speaker 2: it's just a different business than it used to be.

385
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Speaker 2: The bands don't make as much money from the music,

386
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Speaker 2: so they're touring and taking gigs and taking you know,

387
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Speaker 2: doing other things like the music is almost I always

388
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Speaker 2: looked at it that the music was the most important

389
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Speaker 2: thing in their lives. Now the touring is almost more

390
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,399
Speaker 2: important to them because they need to make money. So

391
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Speaker 2: I'm there to accommodate their schedule a lot. You know,

392
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Speaker 2: like a lot of times when I do an Inflames record,

393
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Speaker 2: or I do even a three days Grace record, or

394
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Speaker 2: I'm doing some Daughtry stuff in a couple of weeks,

395
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,719
Speaker 2: it's in between their touring schedule. You know, they'll fly in,

396
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,600
Speaker 2: we'll do some vocals, they'll fly out, so you know,

397
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Speaker 2: and we have to nail it pretty much.

398
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Speaker 1: You know. Okay, I'm coming in, I'm cutting a song.

399
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Speaker 1: How many times are I going to have to sing

400
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Speaker 1: it for you?

401
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,600
Speaker 2: Not that many. I'm not one of those guys that

402
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,480
Speaker 2: does an eight hours My My average vocals session for

403
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Speaker 2: one song is about two hours. That's it.

404
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,680
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm in there singing. Are you ever going to

405
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 1: change the lyrics or say you should absolutely tell me

406
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Speaker 1: about really?

407
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, it's an interesting point about how

408
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,119
Speaker 2: you bring that up. If you tell an artist ahead

409
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 2: of time that you need to change the lyrics, a

410
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 2: lot of times you're going to get this response. Not

411
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 2: a lot of times, but dude, that's my favorite part

412
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,560
Speaker 2: of the song. I can't believe you don't like it,

413
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: and then they're going to obsess over it. Talk to

414
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Speaker 2: the band, I like to have the artist in the

415
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Speaker 2: studio on the mic, and then I'll say, you know what,

416
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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I'm feeling that line, even though I've

417
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 2: known about it for about a month, But right at

418
00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 2: that moment, I'm going to get more of a response

419
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 2: of okay, Lee, let me give me a second. Let's

420
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,360
Speaker 2: try and work something now, and they'll bring out there

421
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 2: you know, spelled you know, rhyming dictionaries or whatever you

422
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 2: know they use and we can kind of do it.

423
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 2: Or sometimes I'll call this the main writer on the

424
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Speaker 2: phone and I'll say, hey, dude, we got rewrite this line.

425
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 2: We're gonna move on. Can you come up with something?

426
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm very I think that's huge. The lyrics,

427
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I've changed lyrics on lots of songs that

428
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 2: have made a huge difference to me in the sales

429
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,600
Speaker 2: of the songs, you know, just because you know, we've

430
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 2: known that that was a bad lyric. But we know

431
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 2: if we bring it up at the wrong time, we're

432
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,159
Speaker 2: never gonna get it changed. There'll be an argument against

433
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: us from the entire band that we can't overcome. So

434
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,480
Speaker 2: you have to just hold your powder to the right moment,

435
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's kind of like knowing when they run

436
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 2: the Philly Special, you know what I mean, it's a

437
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:34,240
Speaker 2: joke for Philly fans.

438
00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 1: Oh okay.

439
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 4: Do they tend to come up with the new line

440
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 4: that fast? Well, that's my job is to push hard

441
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 4: to do it. Yeah, Like, I know what I'm looking for.

442
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 4: A lot of times it's a line. It's really bad.

443
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,720
Speaker 4: It's not a lined. It's not good.

444
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: It's a lined. It's like a cul de sac where

445
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: they wrote themselves into a like you know, you have

446
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: this nice flow and then all of a sudden you're like, uh, people,

447
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,159
Speaker 2: places and things. I don't care. It's got to be

448
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,920
Speaker 2: something emotional. We're selling feelings here, that's what we are.

449
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 2: That's our business, you know, selling like people, places and things.

450
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: That doesn't do anything. So I'm usually looking for something

451
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 2: that's going to connect on an emotional level. It's going

452
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 2: to further the you know, the feeling I'm trying to

453
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: or the artist is trying to get across. So it's

454
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: not we're not talking about wholesale rewriting here. A lot

455
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 2: of times it's just a line or two, or there's

456
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,959
Speaker 2: a word that doesn't rhyme correctly that maybe they missed, Uh,

457
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 2: maybe there's a W instead of an I. That happens

458
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,439
Speaker 2: a lot where people switch tenses too much, you know,

459
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 2: or not tenses, but you know, they'll say like you know, I,

460
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: I you and then there's a W and then you go, well,

461
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: wait a second, we you know, do we want to

462
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 2: say that? Is that what we're trying to say? We're

463
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 2: going to make a big message here and say we

464
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 2: you know? Or is that do we want to keep

465
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: it focused on the relationship between the two people. You know,

466
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: those type of conversations come up a lot, you know.

467
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's assume I'm going to cut a vocal

468
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: with you. Ay, how far in advance would I schedule it?

469
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 4: Be?

470
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: What do you want? You want a demo in a

471
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: lyric sheet or.

472
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: What I want? A lyric sheet? For sure? And a

473
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 2: demo would be nice because I like to put the

474
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: demo in the session because there's certain things on the

475
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,719
Speaker 2: demo that you can't reproduce the kind of you know,

476
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 2: the inflections of the vocal or just the phrasing, and

477
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 2: artists will misremember a lot of that stuff, like what

478
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: did I do on the demo? So it's nice to

479
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: have the reference there. You know, you know, I just

480
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 2: would like you to warm up. Actually, warming up is

481
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: a good thing. You know, when you're not warmed up,

482
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: that means we have to do extra takes and extra

483
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: takes or sometimes you know, it's that immediacy that you

484
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 2: want to get out of a vocal. That's sometimes great.

485
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 2: You know that the first shot at it is sometimes

486
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: the truth. But if you're not warmed up, you know,

487
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 2: so I'll sort of ask, hey, just do a few

488
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: minutes of warming up. You don't have to go crazy here,

489
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 2: you know.

490
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: But let's assume I'm cutting the vocal. As you said

491
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: with Keith Olson, nobody's perfect. What might you say to

492
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: me to get the best vocal?

493
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: I'm not. I don't. I'm not believing it right now, Bob.

494
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: You got to sell You're just not selling it enough.

495
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: Like I mean, it's cool and everything, but it's not

496
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: changing my life. I'm not giving you exact things. I'm

497
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: not saying sing it like this. Sing. I never do that,

498
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: and people think I do that because they go, oh,

499
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 2: look at these records. You must know. I want you

500
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: to give me it the way you want to give

501
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: it to me, But you have to give it to

502
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 2: me with conviction. You have to sell it to me.

503
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,719
Speaker 2: You have to give it to me that I'm feeling something.

504
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: And if I can't feel it, what are we doing here?

505
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: You know?

506
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 2: That's that's it. And I you know, I never get

507
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: abusive in there with I mean, I've been with abusive producers,

508
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: and I started my career working for some people I

509
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: won't name who are just like, hey man, you know

510
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: you just suck in there. You know you shouldn't even

511
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 2: be in. I can't believe you're even like in this project.

512
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 2: You know, I'm like, no, I'm never going to go

513
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: that way. I'm gonna just be trying to give them

514
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: positive reinforcement. But you have to make me happy right

515
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: now and yourself, you know, or imagine you're in front

516
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: of one hundred thousand kids right now, you got to act.

517
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 2: We got to feel that right now. So you know,

518
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: I'm sometimes at odds against the band too. Some of

519
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 2: the band, the bands that come in, they don't really

520
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: know what they're looking for either, and they'll say the

521
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: wrong things to the singer. And that's sometimes why I

522
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,199
Speaker 2: don't want the bands in the studio with me. Like

523
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: sometimes they'll just give them what their movie in their

524
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 2: head is, you know, like I'm trying to get the

525
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 2: singer to give me his movie what's in his head?

526
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: So a lot of times you don't want the distractions

527
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: of other people saying things, you know, to get some

528
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 2: the you know, they can throw off your vocal. I

529
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 2: trust myself enough at this point, you know, to know

530
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 2: what I want, and then I do harmonies. I'm a

531
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: very big harmony guy. I stick to bach. I'm a

532
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: Bach guy. When I went to music school, I learned

533
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: a lot. I mean, I have a degree in engineering

534
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: and aerospace engineering from Drexel, but I took a year

535
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: off and went to music school and studied real hardcore harmony.

536
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: Arrangements hinder myth all that stuff. And when I do

537
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: my arrangements, they're very traditional. Like all the arrangements I do.

538
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: I try not. I stick away from parallel four its

539
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 2: parallel fiss I. You know, I don't take the harmony

540
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: and flip it over the vocal so the ear gets

541
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: you know, mistakenly taken to the harmony, all that kind

542
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: of stuff. But I do break the rules, you know,

543
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 2: when I want to break them. So harmonies to me,

544
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: are there to emphasize the lead vocal to make sure

545
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 2: the lead you know you want to when you listen

546
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: to the Beatles, they're the best at it. They know

547
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: how to go from three part harmony to unisons, back

548
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: to three part back to unisons, and it emphasizes certain

549
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: lines and that also builds on the vocal. I'm thinking

550
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 2: about that at exactly the same time we're doing the vocal. Hey,

551
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to put up a harmony here. Oh, I'm

552
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: going to do a lower vocal here, I'm going to

553
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,680
Speaker 2: do a falsetto here, I'm gonna do a third above

554
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 2: the vocal here, I'm gonna do a six below the

555
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 2: vocal here. And then sometimes that guides me on about

556
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 2: how I'm going to have you sing it. You know,

557
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: there are certain things where I'm going to go, Okay,

558
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 2: the energy is going to come from this high harmony

559
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 2: part I'm going to put on there, and invariably i

560
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 2: get well, if I can't sing above it s and

561
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, you can, you can, You're gonna you know,

562
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 2: and they invariably do. So, you know, you just have

563
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,399
Speaker 2: to kind of get their heads positive about it, and

564
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: all of a sudden you're hitting d's and then ease,

565
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: and they're like, oh my god, I never sang that

566
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: high in my life. Well, you only have to do

567
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: it twice, so you know that in the double and

568
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: I got it. Now, what am I gonna do live?

569
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: That's your problem, you know, that's not my problem.

570
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: Oh okay. You know you talk about the sixties, the Beatles,

571
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: et cetera. You know you actually had backup singers, whether

572
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: members of the band are external people. Then you hit

573
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: the seventies, lead singers are doing their own backgrounds and

574
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 1: their own Hartleys. What's your viewpoint on that?

575
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: It's both are great. If I have a band member

576
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: that can sing backgrounds, I'd rather have, and and they

577
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 2: have been singing with the lead singer for a while,

578
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 2: it's magic, absolutely, like you get this other thing happening.

579
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: It's like Jagger and Richard's and stuff like that. You know,

580
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: you know these other sounds that come out. But there's

581
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: also something cool about having a singer that does their

582
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: own vocals. Like when I do Daughtries record, for example,

583
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: he sings his own vocal harmonies and he sounds great

584
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: singing them together. You know, Kelly Clarkson, when I did her,

585
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: I had Kara Diaguardi do the backgrounds because she's a

586
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 2: great singer and she can sing with you know, Kelly

587
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 2: very well. They match great. So I think it just

588
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: depends on what's going on. You know, a lot of

589
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 2: times in three days Grace, for example, Neil the drummer

590
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: likes to sing the octaves, so I'll have him do it,

591
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 2: and he does a great job at that. So I

592
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 2: think it really depends on the song. You know, a

593
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: lot of times the singer, by the way, cannot sing

594
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: the super super high parts, so we do have to

595
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: get somebody. If a band member can sing the super

596
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: super high parts, thank god. Like I love it. I

597
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 2: don't like generating harmonies that much. I'll do it once

598
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 2: in a while, but you know, I like the real deal.

599
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: The real thing adds to it.

600
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: Okay, let's just shoom. You nailed the vocal. Now you're

601
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: going to woo Hills in the big room. What happens next.

602
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 2: Well, I usually get the track from the Woodland Hills

603
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 2: and I put it together. Here, I'm the I'm the.

604
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 1: No, I'm actually I'm not going that far. You say

605
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: you cut the vocal first, Now you have to cut

606
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: the track.

607
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's being cut alongside me doing the vocal at

608
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: the same time.

609
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: So okay. Traditionally, while you're cutting the vocal, somebody on

610
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: your team is cutting the track. You're not even there.

611
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. I already know what I want.

612
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: You trust your team enough to get what you want.

613
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I've been like that for I don't know twenty years,

614
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: the same guys. I know they know what I like,

615
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: and I know it what I want, you know. So

616
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: a lot of times what they're cutting is just the

617
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: meat potatoes anyway. It's the bass, guitar, drums, stereo guitars,

618
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: guitar solos. I'll well, you can't see it here, but

619
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: I'll add a whole bunch of keyboards and programming after

620
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: I have that all put together, and I'll listen and

621
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: I'll go, you know what, we need something here or this.

622
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: I'm a big believer in space, so I feel like

623
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: we always over record everything, like I like to take

624
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: things out to me the space. If there's a four

625
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: member band, the space is the fifth member of the band.

626
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: If you look at scorers, those little swiggly lines, and

627
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 2: the score means don't play, you know. So a lot

628
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 2: of bands with pro tools now have a problem with

629
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: that because they want to record every bar, every measure,

630
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: every sixteenth note has something going on. I like space,

631
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: you know, So when I get the music back, a

632
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: lot of times I'm subtracting from things, not adding to it.

633
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 2: I'll add things here and there, But like, I want

634
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: it to sound bigger. I want the drums to be bigger,

635
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 2: the guitar is to be I want to be able

636
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 2: to hear everything, you know, so and I know what

637
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: Mike's going to do. Mike's a great engineer. He's one

638
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: of the great sort of like original guys that could

639
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: still record live instruments, So I know what they're going

640
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: to sound like. I kind of know the demo that

641
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 2: if we don't have a good demo, by the way,

642
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: we're not going to record it. So the demo has

643
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 2: to be a pretty good guide. You know. That's a

644
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: lot different than it was twenty years ago. We're in

645
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 2: the rehearsal hall. I had to be okay with it

646
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: in the rehearsal hall to go we're going to record it.

647
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 2: And then I was on there more often in the

648
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 2: studio directing traffic because we didn't have anything to follow.

649
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: But now we have demos to follow, so I know

650
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 2: kind of pretty much where we're going with it. So yeah,

651
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: it's a bit different.

652
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: Okay, just going You mentioned pro tools a couple of times.

653
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: Do you have an opinion of analyg versus digital?

654
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I probably made my whole career when I

655
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 2: switched to pro Tools. I switched to ninety six. I

656
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: was one of the first rock guys to use it.

657
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: I used it on Sepulteur record in nineteen ninety six

658
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: ninety seven when it was called sound Designer, and I

659
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 2: used I use it on a Less than Jake record

660
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: back there, and I remember I bring this stuff into

661
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: like Chris sod Algae and he would be like, what

662
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: the hell's this stuff? You know, what's this computer? Like,

663
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 2: I don't know what this? You get this thing out

664
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: of here and who are you?

665
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: You know?

666
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: So, you know, we went through our growing phase back then,

667
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,000
Speaker 2: figuring out how to use all this stuff. But I

668
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 2: don't think I could have made any of these records

669
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: without the computer. I just wasn't I was I just

670
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,239
Speaker 2: couldn't connect my brain to the tape. Thing was too

671
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 2: slow for me. Honestly, I just had all these ideas

672
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: about what I wanted to do, and I was always

673
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: weighed down by this slowness of tape and I just liked,

674
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: you know, adding you know my vision. When the big,

675
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: first big record I had was the pod record Fundamental

676
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: Elements of Southtown, and if you listen to that record,

677
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: there's a lot of really cool stuff going on in there.

678
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: Which really made it work was having autotune, because you know,

679
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: I remember in ninety six when I was doing Less

680
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: than Jake's record, I had called Avid wasn't called Avid

681
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 2: but pro tools back digit design. Back then, I used

682
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: to answer the phones actually and I would calm up

683
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: and say, hey, I'm having this problem. I'm getting IRQ errors.

684
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: And you know, we were still on these powermats back then.

685
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: And one guy said to me, Hen, I'm going to

686
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 2: send you this floppy disc. I try this plugin out,

687
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: and back then it was not that many plugins. But

688
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: he said, it's a company called Antari's and they do

689
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 2: stuff for the government or something. I don't remember exactly

690
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: what the story was, but I got this plug in

691
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: and I put it in and it was auto tuned,

692
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, oh my god, this is going

693
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: to change everything like this, like these singers and Less

694
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 2: Than Jake are really good, but now they sound really

695
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 2: good and they loved it. The band. They were like, man,

696
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 2: I've never sounded that good in my life. So that

697
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: made the performance more important, you know what I mean.

698
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: Like I wasn't focusing on the tuning anymore. I was going, man,

699
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: this performance is badass. It's a little flat right now,

700
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: but I'm this is way better than the one that's

701
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: in tune. So I think that sometimes people missing like

702
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: I never used auto tuned to the point where people

703
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,719
Speaker 2: made fun of me or anything. I never had that problem.

704
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: Nobody ever said to me, oh, you over auto tuned it.

705
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 2: In fact, if anything, I got the opposite. The bands

706
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: wanted more auto tune. My autotune guy, by the way,

707
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: my protols guy, sorry, my editor in Texas, a guy

708
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 2: named Paul Decarley. He does everything graphically, so we don't

709
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: We don't just use the button, do you know what

710
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: I mean? We just don't turn it on like the standard.

711
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: You know, he draws it in, so we try to

712
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: keep it natural. Nowadays, they don't want that, you know,

713
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: the artists want they want it on stunt, you know.

714
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 2: So I find myself double auto tuning things. Now it's crazy.

715
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: Back then, we were trying not to make it sound autotuning.

716
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: Now everybody wants it perfectly, you know. But by the way,

717
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: when I did Lesson Jake, I auto tune the horns.

718
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: That didn't work out very well.

719
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I'll write about a record, Oh, auto tune, autotune.

720
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: You're you're telling me that you can use auto tune.

721
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: Let me put it in a different way. Can you

722
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 1: employ auto tune such that people can't tell it's auto tune?

723
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: You know, here's something really interesting. I have not used it,

724
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 2: and people have accused me of using it because they say, oh,

725
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: that sound has to be auto tuned. I'm like, no,

726
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: that's actually the singer. Now, if I auto tuned it,

727
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: you probably would think it's not auto tuned. So, you know,

728
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 2: it's the opposite of what people And this is one

729
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 2: of my theories about recording in the studio. It goes

730
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: back to a bigger thing. The more accurate I have

731
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: the music in the studio, the more detailed I get it,

732
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: the more on, you know, everything being really locked in,

733
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: the more live it sounds. Now when it's not done

734
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: like that people listen to when I've done records that

735
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 2: have been like loose and live, they go, oh my god,

736
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 2: you you edited it terribly. No, that's the band. That's

737
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: how they sound. Now when you're seeing a live show,

738
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: you can't tell those things. You're in this big room.

739
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: Everything's coming at you, this big assault of sound. You

740
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: can't tell if the kick and the bass aren't married up,

741
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: but you certainly can tell if I didn't do that

742
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: in my production. So the more I made it perfect,

743
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 2: you know, not perfect, but tied together like a great

744
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: band was playing like the best session players in LA

745
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: were playing it, the more people found it sounded live.

746
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: So I was like, you know what, I think I'm

747
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 2: onto something here. Actually, you know, I'm going to get

748
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: it to sound great, and then it sounds, you know,

749
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: as long as I mix it right. I never had

750
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: anybody tell me my stuff sounded like, you know, like

751
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: not as good. It's like the band. In fact, I

752
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: always had the opposite. Oh the band sounds worse live.

753
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 2: How did you do it? How did you make that

754
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: record sound like that?

755
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: Well?

756
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: I use pro tools, you know, so I always leaned

757
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 2: into it, Bob, do you know what I mean? I

758
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: leaned into it. I didn't lean away from it. I

759
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 2: figured it's it's something that's now part of the world.

760
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to use it. I didn't shy away from it.

761
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: A lot of producers in the early middle nineties were

762
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: not getting I wasn't getting projects because bands would not

763
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: want to record in the computer. But once they did it,

764
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: they were sold. They were like, Wow, we sound great.

765
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,399
Speaker 2: We never sounded that great. That's you know, that's how

766
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 2: I learned it.

767
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: Okay, just hammering this point. There are people who talk

768
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 1: about an analog sound and a digital sound. What's your

769
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: take there.

770
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 2: I absolutely love the analog sound. We use the whatever

771
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: we can use in pro tools. There's a couple of

772
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: selections you can make. One of them's called heat that

773
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: adds a compression sort of a fake well whatever their

774
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,280
Speaker 2: version of tape compression is to things. I think early

775
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: on in pro tools they didn't have as good of converters,

776
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: so things sounded squirrely. Back then, you couldn't get a

777
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: really good you know, the resolution wasn't great. Nowadays, the

778
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 2: resolution is really good in the computer. Like you can

779
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: use all kinds of plug in tape emulators, all kinds

780
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: of stuff like that. I have a whole record album collection,

781
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: like I got rid of all my CDs, but I

782
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,439
Speaker 2: have all my albums and I have a record player,

783
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: and when I put it on, I enjoy it for

784
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: about ten minutes, and then I just go, oh my god,

785
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: Like where's the fidelity? I mean the RIAA curve. It's

786
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: a pretty brutal curve.

787
00:36:59,280 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: You know.

788
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: Further you get into that record towards the center, the

789
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 2: less base you have, and you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

790
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: I could to fall in love with that stuff, but

791
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just like the full fidelity of records,

792
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 2: the big you know, once the digital sound got once

793
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: when Clear Mountain came out with the Apogee stuff, that

794
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: changed everything. Like his resolution was so much better than

795
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: the pro tool stuff. And I remember we bought all

796
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 2: that stuff and we were like, whoa, now it sounds great.

797
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: Then we started doing stuff ninety six K and then

798
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: we realized, wait a second, doesn't sound that different than

799
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: forty eight, and our computers are starting to crash all

800
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: the time. We actually had a big argument with Universal

801
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: Records about this whole thing. We had to kind of

802
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: like en mass me and a bunch of producers say

803
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: we cannot record ninety six forty eight because we just

804
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: can't run the computers like that, you know. They were like, no,

805
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 2: it has to be at that resolution, like for rock

806
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 2: music really, you know, maybe if you're doing a jazz record,

807
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: I get it, you know, but for rock music, it's

808
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 2: just killing us. So now the standard recording is like

809
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: forty eight to twenty four. That's kind of where we're

810
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 2: at right now. I don't see many records that are

811
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: outside of that either direction, you know, I don't see

812
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: any forty four or one stuff.

813
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: Oh okay, but the computers continue to improve. Would the

814
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: computers choke on ninety six today?

815
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 2: You know, it still takes longer to process everything. It

816
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: slows everything down. Probably is not as bad, it's funny.

817
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: The only reason I bring it a up is we

818
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: had to open up an old record that we're going

819
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: to work on this week at ninety six, and then

820
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: we realized how long it took us to like process stuff,

821
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, when we were just like like, oh my god,

822
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 2: it's like, I know, it's not that much longer really

823
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: in the world in the you know, maybe it's three

824
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: minutes compared to like five minutes or something like that.

825
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: It's shorter, but that just adds up over time, you know,

826
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: and so there's not that much difference for a rock

827
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 2: project to put to go through that. So I think

828
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 2: we've all kind of I think it's a subconscious decision.

829
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: All us rock producers that made that were sticking to

830
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 2: this resolution. And I don't see anything else coming in

831
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: that that. Like, I mean, Apple has their thing where

832
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: I guess they have well, I'm not sure you have

833
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: it anymore. I see most of the atmost stuff from them,

834
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: but I don't know. I guess it's individual you know, preferences.

835
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,760
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, play that out with Apple.

836
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I caught your point.

837
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: Oh well, we have to do what Apple used to do.

838
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,280
Speaker 2: They had that like super audio thing for a while,

839
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 2: or I forget there was like these high resolution records

840
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 2: we had to make for them. But now they really

841
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: want are atmost mixes of everything. So we just have

842
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: to deliver atmost mixes of every song now, or else

843
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: we don't get the good play listening from them. That's

844
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: kind of what you trade off, you know, like they

845
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: sort of have you a little bit, you know, in

846
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 2: that way, like if you don't give us the utmost mixes,

847
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: we're not going to say what's going to happen, but

848
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 2: you may not get all the goodies.

849
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: You know, what's your take on outmost mixes.

850
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: I don't make them. I have an engineer do that.

851
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: But I've heard old records mixed and atmos and I look,

852
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: I think it's just because I like my old album

853
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: collection the way it sounded. I'm not a fan of it.

854
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,760
Speaker 2: I don't even like it when they redo that stuff.

855
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: Like I've heard doors records where they put some of

856
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: the vocals back in they weren't there. I don't like that.

857
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, well forget you know, redoing old records

858
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: and at most they always fuck it up. But originally

859
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: the ones Apple had the vocals weren't loud enough. But

860
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: if you're starting from scratch, oh yeah, what's your viewpoint on?

861
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 2: It's fine for some people. It's not something again that

862
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: I pay that much attention to. We have a guy

863
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: that doesn't. He sends them out. That's it, you know,

864
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 2: it's not it's made for a certain Uh. I think

865
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 2: my new car hasn't can handle it. I mean, my

866
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: tesla said they could, but I couldn't hear any difference. Honestly,

867
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 2: I think it's basically made for headphones, the app, the

868
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 2: Apple earbuds. That's really why, you know, that's what I've heard,

869
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: But I just don't Again, my focus is more on

870
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: the production of the stereo mix the songs, the vocals,

871
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: that stuff. You know, there's a whole group of autmost

872
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: mixers out there that do a great job, I guess,

873
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: and you know that's it. I really have not so

874
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: much of an opinion.

875
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: Okay, let's pull back from that. Yeah, so you don't

876
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: believe there are people who believe we're cutting the band

877
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: altogether live it adds and energy. You actually believe the reverse?

878
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: Well, I do like to cut it live just to

879
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 2: get the arrangement down, But yeah, I believe the reverse. Yeah,

880
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: but I do believe that cutting the band live to

881
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,839
Speaker 2: get the original, to get to work the parts out,

882
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 2: is important. Do you know what I mean? Because you

883
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: can't like to work it out. But a lot of

884
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: times when a guitar player is in there by themselves,

885
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: they're coming up with parts as they're moving forward through

886
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 2: the song, and a lot of times they don't even

887
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: want to be in the studio with this. They want

888
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: to take the song home with them and do it

889
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night in their underwear, and

890
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: that's when they come up with their great guitar solo.

891
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: So I think that's the pandemic has kind of changed

892
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: the way we thought about that a lot. We just

893
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,319
Speaker 2: never conceived of doing a record without all the members there,

894
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: and now all of a sudden, we're doing records with

895
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: none of the members there. You know, we just had

896
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 2: to make it work. It didn't work, by the way,

897
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: using zoom or any of that. That stuff was just

898
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 2: impossible to do. So we just had to like send

899
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: it out, get it back, and if there was some problem,

900
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 2: I call the guitar player. Hey, you know, you got

901
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: to do it again, or it's not in tune. And

902
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons we still have to have

903
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: the guys come to my studio with Mike. The tuning

904
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: issues with guitars. You can be good at it, but

905
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: you need someone there to really help you with that.

906
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: It's just too hard to get everything in tune all

907
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: the time. You know, you spend most of your time

908
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 2: tuning when you're doing guitar parts.

909
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: Okay, you're here at home the Vocal studio. Your guys

910
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: are in Woodland Hills. They're cutting a track. How long

911
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: does it take them to do it?

912
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: So they're cutting usually the okay, so let's just take it,

913
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: for example, three days, Grace. I'll tell you the recording

914
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 2: process for that. Neil has cut all the drums in Ontario,

915
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 2: working off the demos, so the drums are now edited

916
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 2: by my editor in Texas. The finished drum track is

917
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: in Woodland Hills. The guitar player and the bass player

918
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: in Woodland Hills from they came down flew in and

919
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 2: Mike is recording. What we already know is the version

920
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: that we're going to do because we have a really

921
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: good demo that was made a couple months ago. We

922
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: agreed that this was what the demo was. This is

923
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 2: the guide. Now we're going to do it for real.

924
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: So we're going to make sure those stereo guitar parts

925
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 2: are in tune, the extra sweetening parts are the way

926
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 2: we want them. They's just extra parts added, and that

927
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 2: in some form is going to be sent to me

928
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,439
Speaker 2: to do vocals today with Adam. He's coming over here

929
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: after we're done, so wherever the song is at, I'm

930
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 2: going to start doing the vocals. At that point, it

931
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: may not even be done. It may not even have

932
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: the edited guitar as yet. But I know enough about

933
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: working with Adam and Matt and this band that I

934
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 2: can do it with even the demo guitars if I

935
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: had to. So, you know, things are kind of We

936
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 2: have a chart, by the way that we keep. When

937
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: we're finished something, we check it off, so we're not

938
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: it's not chaotic. We do know where we are in

939
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 2: the project, but there are a lot of things happening

940
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 2: at once, you know. In another part of the world

941
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: is programming going on. We have a couple of programmers,

942
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: one list in Dubai actually that we use that program

943
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: strings and things, and we'll send him the track and say, hey,

944
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: do some stuff, send it back and we'll see if

945
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 2: we like it, and if we don't, we won't use

946
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: any of it. Sometimes, so have an idea that I'll

947
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: take and redo it over here in my stuff, you know,

948
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: and I'll add a lot of the keyboards. After I've

949
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: done with the vocals, I'll put some B three on

950
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: it and things like that. I still like adding B

951
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: three to these records. It's a anyway.

952
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: Okay, wait a second, just going back to this three

953
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: Day's Grace project. Yeah, you did say I'm trying to

954
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 1: understand that you cut the vocals first, right, But in

955
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: this case, it sounds did you cut the vocals first

956
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: the way you were talking, or did the guy cut

957
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: the drums first?

958
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 2: I have to open the session up and let you know, actually,

959
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: because I might be working with demo vokays.

960
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,479
Speaker 1: Let's not go there right now. Let's start with how

961
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: does the guy cut the drums in Canada first?

962
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: Because he's working from a demo that's been worked out,

963
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 2: so he's playing to the demo.

964
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: And what about do you send your engineer there?

965
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: No, we have an engineer in Canada that we trust

966
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 2: that we've been using a long time, and he has

967
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: a room that he's going to record it. And since

968
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 2: we're going to probably replace a lot of the drum

969
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: sounds with samples, we're looking for a performance more than

970
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 2: we are looking for drum sounds. So if we get

971
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 2: a snare sound that a little squirrely, we can always

972
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: replace it.

973
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: Okay, let's stay there. He's cut the stuff. Tell me

974
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: about replacing the drum sounds with samples.

975
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: Okay, so he cuts it and say we don't like

976
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: to kick and snare go And by the way, that

977
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: happens ninety percent of the time. Okay, Like, it's not

978
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 2: unusual to do this. In fact, if you look at

979
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: the old Steely Dan documentaries, they were doing it back then.

980
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 2: You know with the Wendel thing that you know, their

981
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: engineer had Gary Katz and all those guys. So we

982
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: will take the drum track, assign MIDI notes to the

983
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: kick and snare that will trigger MIDI information that we

984
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: can take any kick and snare anywhere in the world

985
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: and have a trigger. We will print that underneath the

986
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 2: snare drum track. They'll be samples of snares, there'll be

987
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: samples of kicks, they'll be samples of Tom's. So then

988
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: we have the choice when we mix of which ones

989
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 2: we want to use, and that leads it up to

990
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 2: the mixer. A lot of times as the mixers mixing,

991
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: the mixer will go, you know what, I don't like

992
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: this snare drum that was recorded. Look at that snare

993
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: number three that fits into this mix much better. Now

994
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 2: he doesn't have to go through the energy of replacing it.

995
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: We've done it for him already. We've given him a

996
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 2: menu of stuff that he can use. So you know,

997
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: something we worked out with Chris ord Algaeback in the day,

998
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: Chris liked to have all that stuff. You know, we

999
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,720
Speaker 2: would give him like samples of all kinds of stuff,

1000
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: and he would. In fact, we gave him his samples.

1001
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 2: He gave us our He gave us his samples, and

1002
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 2: we give them back to him put on the track.

1003
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 2: So then we get this drum track back that is,

1004
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's not mixed or anything like that, but

1005
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: it's good enough. But we can work with it. And

1006
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: whatever case it is, it might get to me with

1007
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,720
Speaker 2: note with guitars that are not finished, base that's not finished,

1008
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 2: but enough that I can cut the vocals. And while

1009
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 2: I'm cutting the vocals with at them, they're still cutting

1010
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: the guitars over there at the studio. But I know

1011
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: the arrangement because I already have it, the demo arrangement

1012
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 2: of it. You know. Now, the demo has to be

1013
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 2: in tune, obviously, and most of the time it is.

1014
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 2: But if it's squirrely, we'll let them know. But I

1015
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 2: don't really run into that at all. Honestly. The demos

1016
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: are pretty you know.

1017
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: And everybody's working to a click. How do you keep

1018
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: it all?

1019
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 2: Yes, everything's yeah, oh, yeah, it's metrono.

1020
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1021
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,359
Speaker 2: I don't think I've seen a non metrono, a tract

1022
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: not to a metronome in thirty years.

1023
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you always have a third party mix it.

1024
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 1: You never mix yourself.

1025
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 2: I tried once or twice. I'm always I'm you know what,

1026
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: I kind of am not as precious at that point.

1027
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 2: I used to be much more precious about it. What

1028
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: I do now with mixing is well. For example, in

1029
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 2: three days Grace, they're gonna have some out third party

1030
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: mix it that I'm not gonna have anything to do with.

1031
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 2: I will have a say though, when they send it

1032
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 2: to me, I'll say to them, hey, I don't think

1033
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 2: the harmonies are loud enough. I'll talk about the vocals,

1034
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 2: mostly because they have their own opinions about the rest

1035
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: of the track. My really focused on how the vocals

1036
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: sound on the records. I do that, like for example,

1037
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: for Judge and Jury or for Inflames, my mixer Joe

1038
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 2: will mix them. And this is a pretty cool system.

1039
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: We have my pro tools Rig and his pro tools

1040
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: Rig are identical down to the plugins, down to everything.

1041
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: I'll send it to him first. He will mix it

1042
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 2: about sixty to seven. He'll send it back to me.

1043
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 2: Then I will add all the vocals into it the

1044
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 2: way I want with the effects. I want the delays,

1045
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: I want the reverbs, I want the doubles, I want

1046
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 2: where the harmony should sit. All that. Then I will

1047
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,879
Speaker 2: send it back to him and he will finish getting it.

1048
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: He'll bake it more, he'll get the bread to be

1049
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 2: baked more, and then he'll send it back to me,

1050
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 2: and then I'll mess with it a little bit. Then

1051
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 2: i'll send it back. He'll mess with it. He's pretty

1052
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 2: much mixing it. I'm really just making sure the vocals

1053
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 2: are right. So that's how that one works. It's just

1054
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 2: different on every project.

1055
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to Three Days Grace. Why do

1056
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: they want to have a third party mix it without

1057
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: your input the same way you're talking about with the

1058
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: guy with the same pro tools.

1059
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 2: Rig Because there's some mixers like Dan Lancaster, and you

1060
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 2: know there's some A list mixers who you just trust

1061
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 2: more that you just go, you know what, these guys

1062
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 2: have it. This is the sound I want, you know.

1063
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 2: I know that anything I say in this situation with

1064
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: Three Days Grace that I've produced five albums of theirs.

1065
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 2: We all kind of know what's going on here, do

1066
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 2: you know. It's not like we're not going to drive

1067
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 2: the car off the cliff on this one. You know,

1068
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: if it's a new band, it's a different situation because

1069
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 2: then it we're creating something, a sound, something that's new.

1070
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 2: So therefore I'm way more involved in that. But on

1071
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: three Days Grace, I kind of know that I've been

1072
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 2: producing that band since two thousand and five. I kind

1073
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: of know, you know what I mean where the bodies

1074
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 2: are buried there?

1075
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:25,880
Speaker 3: Oh?

1076
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So they were working with Gavin before you, and

1077
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: then it seems like in the middle they went back

1078
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: to Gavin and then back to you. Yeah, what's that about?

1079
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 2: Should happen with Gavin?

1080
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: Should happen with that?

1081
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: You know?

1082
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: Personally? Or the way the record came out?

1083
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 2: I just don't think they liked the I think they

1084
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 2: wanted someone a little bit more.

1085
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: Organized, Okay, But they went back to him, right.

1086
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 2: They went back to him, Yeah, because I did two

1087
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 2: albums with them. Then they had Don Gilmour produce an album,

1088
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 2: which then Adam left the band. Then when they went

1089
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: to Matt, I think they you know, they'd moved on.

1090
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: I mean it's okay. You know, like I produce a

1091
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: lot of multiple records by bands. They've done like four

1092
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 2: Theory records and those would be my fifth you know.

1093
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: So I stayed with bands a lot, but I think

1094
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: they just wanted to change it up. And when they

1095
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: went back with Gavin, I think it fell into the

1096
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: same rhythm it did on the first couple before they

1097
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: brought me in on the second album, A lot wasn't

1098
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 2: getting done, you know, fast enough for them with the

1099
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: With I have a I have a real team of

1100
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 2: people that is like when you work with me, you're

1101
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,839
Speaker 2: going you get the full treatment. You know we got

1102
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 2: you know, you could trust it. We have guitar texts,

1103
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 2: we have drum texts, we have editor We have a

1104
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 2: studio that works things. You plug things in they that

1105
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: they work, cables work. This is stuff bands like to have.

1106
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:00,760
Speaker 2: They it's in the background.

1107
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 3: You know.

1108
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 2: It's like flying in an airplane. You don't want to

1109
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: think about the rudder control, or you don't want to

1110
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: think about the you know, whether the left engines. You know,

1111
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: got a fan blade. It's broke with us. You come

1112
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: in the studio, you don't think about any of that stuff.

1113
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 2: Everything works We pride ourselves for that. That's something we

1114
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 2: really when I made this team, I said, we want

1115
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 2: the passengers to have a great flight here man, you know.

1116
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: And we're not partying with them either. I don't care

1117
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: how much they want to hang out with us. We're

1118
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: not hanging out with them, you know. And you know,

1119
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: a lot of producers get sucked into that thing where

1120
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: they want to hang out with the band. They think

1121
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: they're part of the whole thing. No, we go home

1122
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,479
Speaker 2: at night, we leave the band. They are the band

1123
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 2: where the producers they come in. It's very professional. That's

1124
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 2: how I like it, you know. And the band's really

1125
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: like that too, because it gives them a certain amount

1126
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: of time to be creative and we're not going into

1127
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 2: the middle of the night doing junk. Then you come

1128
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 2: back the next day and you just realize it's all

1129
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: garbage that you just did. You're sort of like focused

1130
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 2: on what you're doing. And we work really hard for

1131
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 2: eight hours, like we barely stop working. But you're exhausted

1132
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: after that, you know. So I think they liked I

1133
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: think they like our organization. We you know, I once

1134
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: had a band come to me some forty one or

1135
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 2: an artist they said, we need to take you out

1136
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: of your comfort zone and put you in another city

1137
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: so you get, you know, out of your comfort zone

1138
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 2: so we can make this record. I said, guys, that's

1139
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 2: the last thing you want me to do. You're the

1140
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: creative people, we're you know, you want me to be

1141
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 2: crazy too, you know, like that's what you want. Like, no,

1142
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: you want us to be the steadying influence. So you

1143
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 2: guys can go ahead and be as creative as you want.

1144
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: You know, we'll make sure the plane doesn't crash. You know,

1145
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 2: that's our job. So you know, my job is to

1146
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 2: land the plane safely, you know, and make sure we

1147
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 2: have delivered the record. The word of a producer it

1148
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 2: means to produce, you know, it doesn't mean to like

1149
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: screw it up. So like I take that really seriously.

1150
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: That's why I work a lot, because record companies know

1151
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to produce for them, you know, and the

1152
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 2: bands know I'm going to hand in the record, and

1153
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 2: you know it's going to be on budget at on time.

1154
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 2: You know, I want to have hits too, you know.

1155
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 2: That's another thing. Like I don't hire me if you

1156
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 2: don't want hits. You know, I like having hits, and

1157
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 2: the bands like having hits. They may not say that,

1158
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: by the way, but they like it later on. Usually

1159
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 2: if I have a hit, I'm in the chair next time,

1160
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: you know. So you know that's how I look at it.

1161
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: I'm a working class kid from Philly, man how I

1162
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 2: look at it.

1163
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 1: You know. Three Days Grace is managed by qbe.

1164
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,240
Speaker 2: Prime Great Manage.

1165
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, Cliff has opinions. To what degree is Cliff

1166
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 1: involved in the record.

1167
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: In my side of it, not at all, but in

1168
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 2: the bands side of it a ton. So the band

1169
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 2: uses him as their A and R guy absolutely, because

1170
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 2: there really isn't that A and R. There is no

1171
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,800
Speaker 2: A and R from the label on these projects anymore.

1172
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 2: You know. They get the budget and the band has

1173
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,880
Speaker 2: to kind of do it bouncing ideas off their producers

1174
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:10,479
Speaker 2: or their management. So I give my opinion, Cliffs gives

1175
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: his opinion, and the bands make up their own mind

1176
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 2: at that point. Now, the singles being picked are usually

1177
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,160
Speaker 2: being picked by the radio person over at q Prime

1178
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 2: who his name is escaping me Warren, But Warren, right,

1179
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: Warren is the He's amazing at picking singles. In fact,

1180
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: yesterday Neil said to me, what do you think the

1181
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 2: next single is. I'm like, don't ask me. You know,

1182
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 2: I'm just going to deliver you up to the plate

1183
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 2: and you'll get a nice swing. I'm not sure what

1184
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:38,919
Speaker 2: ball we're throwing, but you're going to get a nice swing,

1185
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: you know.

1186
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: So okay, let's go back to the recording process. So

1187
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 1: you have all the instruments recorded, you have the vocals recorded.

1188
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: Now you're in your own house. What do you do

1189
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: to it?

1190
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:57,759
Speaker 2: That's my fun time. I rearranged as much as I want.

1191
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: I changed chords around, and I sent it to the

1192
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 2: band and sometimes they go, Howard, what the fuck are

1193
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 2: you thinking? You know? And sometimes they go, oh, I

1194
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 2: love this. So it's that, you know. My manager used

1195
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,800
Speaker 2: to always say, you need to give Howard a week

1196
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: to do his thing, and you know I would just

1197
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: It's that's where the to me, a lot of the

1198
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: record comes together. Like if there's like a chorus in

1199
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: the wrong place, or I need a double chorus here,

1200
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 2: the bridge is too long, we need a break here,

1201
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 2: the vocal is the second verse should have been the

1202
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: first verse. Those are things that I can now. I've

1203
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 2: got all the ingredients. I got kind of a cooked meal.

1204
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 2: It's not quite done yet. Now I can move the

1205
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 2: pieces around, you know, and bands really really like that

1206
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 2: for me. They want me to do that. You know.

1207
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,759
Speaker 2: If I don't do that, I'm not doing my job

1208
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: for them. So I have to put that time aside,

1209
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: and I have to be has to be like sort

1210
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 2: of quiet, and I have to be able to be focused.

1211
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 2: And sometimes I'll work straight for like twenty minutes, take

1212
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,440
Speaker 2: a break, watch Sports Center, come back, work twenty minutes,

1213
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: take a break, do something else, go for a hike,

1214
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 2: come back, look at it again in a different way angles,

1215
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: you know, try to envision it differently. And sometimes I

1216
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: think it's amazing and I'll send it and everybody hates it,

1217
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 2: and that's the that's you know, And I don't have

1218
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 2: any ego with that. If it's something that I feel

1219
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: super strong about, though, I'll make a stink about it.

1220
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 2: But a lot of times I'm just running stuff up

1221
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 2: the flagpole to see who salutes, you know, Like I'll

1222
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: just try things like that. And you know, it's a

1223
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 2: little bit more that the bands, because they all have

1224
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 2: pro tools now, they know how to talk to me

1225
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,560
Speaker 2: directly about things, so it's a little bit more easier

1226
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 2: to do it Like a lot of times the band

1227
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: will say, hey, can you move this part a couple

1228
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 2: of bars over to this and move this thing? The

1229
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 2: few beats back and I know what they're talking about,

1230
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: so the you know, the communication is real smooth now.

1231
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 2: Used to not be that smooth because they didn't know

1232
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: what I was doing in the computer back then. But

1233
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 2: now everybody sort of works in pro tools are logic.

1234
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 2: We're all talking the same language much, you know. So yeah,

1235
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 2: that's okay.

1236
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,440
Speaker 1: Just since you mentioned that, I was going to ask you,

1237
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: obviously a pro tools guy, what's your take on logic.

1238
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: I think it's great for writing. I just didn't let

1239
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 2: I never learned it, you know, I didn't need to.

1240
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 2: So we see a lot of projects come in on

1241
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 2: logic and we just transform into pro tools, you know.

1242
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 2: I think it's a much Pro Tools is really a

1243
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 2: the more professional to me medium to record in the

1244
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: problem with it is is that it's not easy to

1245
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,720
Speaker 2: do a lot of MIDI stuff in it. The MIDI

1246
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: stuff is sort of clunky still, but I don't have to,

1247
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not working in that medium that much.

1248
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm working you know, if I do MIDI on it,

1249
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's mostly using the instrument tracks and

1250
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:45,840
Speaker 2: using virtual instruments, or if I have to do some

1251
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,919
Speaker 2: real instruments, I just you know, play him live. Most

1252
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: of the time. All these stuff I do is live

1253
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: the work and stuff. I don't really you know, do

1254
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: any MIDI stuff with that.

1255
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, you're in your room. People can't see

1256
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 1: because this is audio only. There are multiple keyboards. You

1257
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: talked about the organ, to what degree do you add

1258
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 1: sounds a lot?

1259
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can't see all this stuff. But I

1260
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 2: have a collection of Vox continentals. I'm a big sixties organit.

1261
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, wait wait wait. If you have a

1262
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: collections of Vox continentals, is that because you know they're

1263
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: not making anymore or each one sounds different.

1264
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: They all sound different, and I love the sound. I

1265
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 2: just love it. And they the bass sound the bottom

1266
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 2: end you When I work with man Xeric on a

1267
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 2: few things, I was lucky enough to meet him, I

1268
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 2: was a huge fan. I learned how to properly hook

1269
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: up a Continental to a speaker so they sound like

1270
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: a door sound. So I sneak this stuff in on

1271
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 2: my own, you know, for my own purposes, Like I

1272
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 2: just you know, I'll put a B three in there

1273
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 2: and I'll be like, yeah, man, ask the Keith Emerson

1274
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 2: sound I snuck in on that record, you know, and

1275
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 2: the band's like that stuff. There's you know, you're paying

1276
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 2: homage to your you know, the greats, the great people,

1277
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 2: you know. So yeah, I use a lot of virtual keyboards, melotrons,

1278
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 2: all that stuff, whatever works, and sometimes just a lot

1279
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 2: of modern stuff just for like, you know, doubling bass,

1280
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:16,400
Speaker 2: and sometimes we'll take the real bass out and just

1281
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: use a bass a mode base, you know, like an

1282
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: old style mode base or you know, I just got

1283
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 2: a d X seven actually because somebody had requested that

1284
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 2: old d X seven Toto sound, and I bought a

1285
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 2: d X seven online. Of course, it got here from Japan.

1286
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,560
Speaker 2: It was destroyed in transit, you know, and I fixed it.

1287
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 2: So now I'm going to put that old base Base one.

1288
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: You know, Base one is the preset and we're going

1289
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: to put that on one of our records. So you know,

1290
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 2: it's amazing what some artists refer to, Like you wouldn't

1291
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: know that some of these guys know some of these records,

1292
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 2: but you know they'll be like, yeah, like that Rosanna sound,

1293
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: and like, oh, I don't even know you knew who

1294
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 2: that project was, you know, so we'll steal. We'll steal

1295
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 2: some shit from Steve per Caro, you know, things like that.

1296
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 2: You know, I'm a big music history fan, like I

1297
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: love to go back. Me and Pete Ambarger are always

1298
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 2: talking about music history all the time, just about you know,

1299
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: all the greats and the keyboards they played, and the

1300
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: guitars they used, and the songwriting. I just went and

1301
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 2: saw Jimmy Webb at the Canyon Club play all his

1302
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,840
Speaker 2: songs on a piano. It was so amazing. I mean,

1303
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 2: I'm such a you know, I'm kind of a geek

1304
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 2: when it comes to that stuff.

1305
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, so you finish. How long does it

1306
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: take you to work on a track in your room.

1307
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,640
Speaker 2: Well, if it's a smooth one, it could be I

1308
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe a day. But sometimes I'll have to

1309
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: go back and rethink it. So yeah, you know, the

1310
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 2: band says, well, we like it, but we don't like this,

1311
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 2: or they'll say, hey, great, let's send it to mixing.

1312
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 2: We're done, that's it, you know. But sometimes they'll just say, hey,

1313
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 2: you know, you took too much out. I'll hear that

1314
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:00,919
Speaker 2: a lot. Actually, I like to short things and get

1315
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 2: to the meat of the bone. You know.

1316
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: Okay, how many times might it go back and forth?

1317
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: And to what degree do you stand up for your

1318
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 1: choices at the end.

1319
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: If I think it's a deal breaker when it comes

1320
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 2: to the commercial aspect of the music, I will I

1321
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 2: will absolutely put up a fight if it's something where hey, dude,

1322
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 2: the tambourine shouldn't have been in the third verse. It

1323
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 2: needs to be in the third B section. Okay, you know,

1324
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,439
Speaker 2: like that's not something I'm going to start a fight over,

1325
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,280
Speaker 2: you know. But if somebody says to me, and I've

1326
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 2: had this a bunch, hey, I don't like that double

1327
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 2: chorus at the end, and this song is like two

1328
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: minutes and thirty seconds long, and I'll say, not much

1329
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: of a song there, man, Like I think we should

1330
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: repeat the chorus. But I'll tell you what, instead of

1331
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 2: the chords going a minor FG, let's go a minor GF.

1332
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 2: It'll still work. The melody. We're in the same KEYSC,

1333
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 2: we're in the relative minor, the relative major melody of work.

1334
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 2: Let's mess around with the chords and we'll do the

1335
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 2: double chorus. But let's make the second chorus a little

1336
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: bit differ, and maybe made the drums halftime, and I'll

1337
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 2: add a little gifted the end, you know, like another

1338
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 2: part that comes in, you know, like a secondary hook.

1339
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 2: So those are the kind of things that you know

1340
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:11,640
Speaker 2: you could do pretty quickly.

1341
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: Actually, you know, Okay, you've been around for a while,

1342
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 1: well before I get there. What's your take on mastering? Uh?

1343
01:03:21,440 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: Boy, that's really funny question. When I first got into

1344
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 2: the business, I hung out with a guy named Tony

1345
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 2: Ferguson who was mastering the No Doubt record, And I

1346
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 2: remember I went over to Interscope and he played it

1347
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 2: for me and he said, I saved this record in mastering.

1348
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: I said, and you know, I didn't know any better.

1349
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 2: Like I was like wow, because I mastered it seven

1350
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: times and this is the perfect mastering. And I was like, wow, Okay,

1351
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 2: now I go. No, he didn't. It was a good record,

1352
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 2: you know already, Like it was mastered sixteen different ways,

1353
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 2: it still would have been you know, tragic kingdom, you

1354
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: know what I mean. So I my feeling has gone

1355
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 2: one hundred and eighty degrees, like I don't want him

1356
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: to really mess with what I've got. I need him

1357
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: to do a few things for me, make sure the

1358
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: levels are all consistent throughout the project and if I

1359
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,959
Speaker 2: miss something like I have too much boominess and base

1360
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: and things like that. But a lot of times you

1361
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,480
Speaker 2: really need him just to make sure the codex are

1362
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 2: correct for the different formats you're delivering too. So you know,

1363
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: I have a guy who masters our stuff in Switz, Sweden,

1364
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: as we have this guy Niles Nielsen, who does all

1365
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 2: our stuff. He's the keyboard player for in Flames. He

1366
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 2: has a separate mastering business and he's he's amazing. He's

1367
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 2: really quick. The stuff comes back, it sounds great, it's

1368
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 2: not overly done.

1369
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: You know.

1370
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 2: I think Ted is probably the best, but sometimes we

1371
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 2: can't afford him to do some of his records. Ted Jensen,

1372
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 2: you know, we used him a lot of records, but

1373
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes it's just easier to use some of

1374
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 2: these other guys. You know, some mixers just do their

1375
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 2: own mastering. So I think it's going on. It's it

1376
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 2: used to be something that is like an official meeting

1377
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:03,720
Speaker 2: where you and the band and the management the label

1378
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: went to the mastering lab and Big Bear Tooth speakers,

1379
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 2: the whole bit big. I don't know what they were called,

1380
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: but everybody sat there and went through this whole thing.

1381
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,160
Speaker 2: You know. Now it's something that you just go, hey,

1382
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 2: we need it mastered. The next day it comes back

1383
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 2: from the mastering guy. That's it, you know. So, yeah,

1384
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 2: it's a different business now. I wouldn't want to be

1385
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 2: in that business.

1386
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: No, No, I know people who are, and it ain't

1387
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: like it used to be. Speaking of ain't like it

1388
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: used to be. You've been around long enough. It's the Internet.

1389
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 1: How's that affected budgets? And how's that affected the way

1390
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 1: it work?

1391
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 2: Well, now that's why we have the label because honestly,

1392
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,280
Speaker 2: three or four points being a record producer, it ain't

1393
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 2: there anymore. I mean you're dealing with one song. Basically,

1394
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 2: one single pays you the points. And instead of selling

1395
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,200
Speaker 2: albums like we used to where we made three or

1396
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:57,880
Speaker 2: four points on ten songs, now you're making it on

1397
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 2: one song and your rock business so you're not streaming

1398
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 2: at all what's used to stream. So the record company,

1399
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 2: Judge and jury, we own fifty percent of the master

1400
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 2: with the label with the artists owns fifty percent of it.

1401
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 2: We fund everything, but we're making more money, but we

1402
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 2: also have to fund it. But at this point in

1403
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 2: my career, I can fund it. So you know, wait,

1404
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 2: let's let's park Judge and Jury for a second.

1405
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,439
Speaker 1: Okay, when you're dealing with Three Days Grace, you're dealing

1406
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: with another band where it's not your money. Right to

1407
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: what degree of the budget's going down? How do you

1408
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: compensate what goes on there?

1409
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 2: I think in Three Days Grace, it's not Look, our

1410
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 2: budgets used to be about, say, four hundred thousand per album.

1411
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 2: Now they're down to maybe two hundred thousand for this product,

1412
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 2: for this project. This is an this is an odd

1413
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,840
Speaker 2: project because they're still signed to a major, which is

1414
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 2: very rare. You know, I can count on my one

1415
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 2: hand the band signed to majors. I think, so they

1416
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: still get a pretty good budget. And yeah, I mean

1417
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 2: it's not I mean, it's definitely different. Like I don't

1418
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 2: charge you know, my relationship with them is just a

1419
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 2: little bit different because I'm in partners. It's hard to say,

1420
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: you know, I have my own deal with them. It's

1421
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 2: really not fair to say what that is like. But

1422
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to be a producer, Bob right now,

1423
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 2: A rock producer. I think it's too hard. I think

1424
01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,480
Speaker 2: it's really a tough business to be in. It used

1425
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,040
Speaker 2: to be a big, really really good lucrative business to

1426
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:24,160
Speaker 2: be in, but I got in under the wire, honestly

1427
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 2: with it. You know, I had hit records when you

1428
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 2: were still selling albums and iTunes, downloads and things like

1429
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: that streaming. The only the reason I excuse me my

1430
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 2: career and I still do well is I produce so

1431
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,320
Speaker 2: many records, you know, like one hundred and seventy of them,

1432
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 2: and so my catalog is really huge if you look

1433
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 2: at my resume, and so I get income on all

1434
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 2: those songs. So it's just, you know, not any one

1435
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 2: of them in their own would be able to like

1436
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 2: support a lifestyle that I have, but all of them

1437
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 2: together do. And I got that from I really, I

1438
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 2: really I what Chris SORDAUGI was doing, to be honest.

1439
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 2: Chris was just mixing records so fast. He was mixing

1440
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 2: like entire albums in three or four days, you know,

1441
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 2: And so every year he'd mix what fifty albums, sixty albums,

1442
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 2: seventy albums. His shot at hits was so much higher

1443
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 2: than everybody's because his odds were better. And I thought,

1444
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:19,600
Speaker 2: you know what, as long as I can get the

1445
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:21,920
Speaker 2: songs right and the bands and I sell records and

1446
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,559
Speaker 2: I make great records, who cares how fast I work,

1447
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 2: you know. So I put a team together and I

1448
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 2: did it quickly so I could do ten albums a year.

1449
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 2: There were some years I did ten albums, you know,

1450
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 2: and if I'm batting three hundred like a baseball player,

1451
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: I'm in the Hall of Fame, you know. So you know,

1452
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 2: to me, it was more about that than it was

1453
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 2: about you know. I mean, I wanted to have a

1454
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 2: life after music. I have a family, I live in

1455
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 2: you know, I live in calabass have two kids. I

1456
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 2: sent him through college, and I worked my ass off

1457
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 2: for I still working. I don't even have to work.

1458
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 2: But I love doing this rec I love this business.

1459
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:58,800
Speaker 2: You know, I'm kind of like never going to be

1460
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,400
Speaker 2: able to. I look at and Clive just keeps working,

1461
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 2: you know, like I kind of want to be like him,

1462
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 2: you know, just keep going, you know.

1463
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. Let's assume I'm not signed to

1464
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: a major label. It's basically my money or an investor.

1465
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 1: Are you gonna work with me?

1466
01:09:19,040 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 2: Uh? As far as a record label or.

1467
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, I want to make a record.

1468
01:09:24,040 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 1: I want to use your team, right, I personally will

1469
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 1: write the check. Not a label, not a traditional outfit.

1470
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:34,519
Speaker 1: Are you open to that business?

1471
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 3: No?

1472
01:09:35,800 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 2: I give that to my other guys. It's too hard.

1473
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:40,640
Speaker 2: And the reason is not because of the sales, but

1474
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:44,519
Speaker 2: because a new artist with lots of money, they don't

1475
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,559
Speaker 2: know the tempo of making records. So you end up

1476
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 2: in this endless cycle of redoing and redoing and expectations.

1477
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,160
Speaker 2: How come it's not selling, Howard, how come's not selling? Well,

1478
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,719
Speaker 2: you don't have any followers. Nobody's you know, following, there's

1479
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, but you fucked the record, you know.

1480
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 2: Like all this stuff starts to happen with people that

1481
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 2: don't know what they're doing. The mature artists don't give

1482
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 2: you that stuff. They know the tempo of what we're

1483
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 2: working in the worldview of the music business new people.

1484
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 2: It's tough man working with I've done it before, I've

1485
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 2: done I'm not doing anything just for the money. I'll

1486
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 2: give that to my guys to do that. Oh, kills

1487
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:23,840
Speaker 2: are called like puff pieces, puff projects. How many people

1488
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: are on the payroll, Well, they're not they're all ten

1489
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:27,799
Speaker 2: ninety nine.

1490
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 1: S Okay, So that's the point. So let's assume you

1491
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:33,200
Speaker 1: give it to one of your guys. You've taken a piece. No,

1492
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 1: so you own the physical plant. You might be doing

1493
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,719
Speaker 1: work there. Somebody else might be doing work. Yeah.

1494
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is my way of giving back to

1495
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 2: my team. They've been loyal to me. They've been there

1496
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:50,800
Speaker 2: for me every year, every year since two thousand and two,

1497
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, and they have business worlds they

1498
01:10:54,960 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 2: want to grow. I'm fine my life, and so anything

1499
01:10:58,280 --> 01:10:59,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to do, I just give it to Mike,

1500
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:01,560
Speaker 2: or give it to Patch, or I give it to

1501
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 2: Joe and or I give it to my son Grady,

1502
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 2: who will give it to somebody he knows. And if

1503
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 2: they he wants to commission him, fine. If they want

1504
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:09,760
Speaker 2: to use the fine, if they want to use the studio, fine,

1505
01:11:09,880 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 2: it's okay with me. It's not worth it's life. It

1506
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 2: comes under the life is too short Moniker for me.

1507
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 2: Do you know, like I'm just not getting in the

1508
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:19,919
Speaker 2: studio with some new artists that for money.

1509
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,679
Speaker 1: Okay, just to dig ones. If someone of your guys

1510
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 1: is cutting in in the studio in your house, you're

1511
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:27,679
Speaker 1: going to take a commission on that or just streen.

1512
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 2: Wellside of my house. It's in the studio. That's not

1513
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 2: my house. That's that's my other.

1514
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 1: The loose language by my part. They're working in your

1515
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 1: studio where you just charging them an hourly or daily

1516
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:39,799
Speaker 1: or are you taking a piece of the project.

1517
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 2: Since they're leasing the studio from me, it keeps them working.

1518
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 2: That's where I'm getting something. So I know if they're

1519
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 2: not getting projects, they're not going to keep leasing the studio.

1520
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 2: So it behooves me to make sure there's projects there,

1521
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 2: you know, so they can skip paying the rent. So

1522
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 2: I'll give them stuff. Hey, hey, here's a project that

1523
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 2: came in. They have twenty thousand dollars to do two singles. Mike,

1524
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:01,680
Speaker 2: do it.

1525
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: That's it, Okay, let's switch gears. Tell me about Judge and.

1526
01:12:13,600 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 2: Jury record company that me and Neil started about five

1527
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 2: years ago, and we sign new bands, established bands. We like.

1528
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:28,760
Speaker 2: They come to us because they like working with me

1529
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,960
Speaker 2: as a producer, or they like working with Neil as

1530
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 2: a songwriter because Neil has had a lot of hits

1531
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:35,479
Speaker 2: and now they really like our team of We do

1532
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:38,240
Speaker 2: have people on staff on the judge and jury, and

1533
01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 2: they like our marketing department, which is run by my

1534
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 2: son Grady, who loves the music business. He's on the

1535
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,519
Speaker 2: he's on the business side of it, collecting royalties and

1536
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: things like that. So it's a standalone label through the

1537
01:12:48,439 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 2: Orchard you Alan Becker signed us over there. It gave us,

1538
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,000
Speaker 2: you know, a good deal, and uh, it's fun. I mean,

1539
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:57,320
Speaker 2: I've never thought i'd actually own a record company, but

1540
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 2: I think I think it's only really worth doing if

1541
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,640
Speaker 2: you're owning about half the master now. So you know,

1542
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 2: it's a lot of work to make these records sell anything.

1543
01:13:06,479 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 2: You have to promote them a lot. You have to

1544
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:09,519
Speaker 2: put a lot of money. And I'm not talking about

1545
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 2: radio promotion, but even just the basic marketing and social

1546
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 2: media and all that stuff. I'm not involved in that

1547
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 2: stuff that much. I'm more involved than the sort of

1548
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:18,160
Speaker 2: creed Like I said to them, I'll do this with

1549
01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:19,800
Speaker 2: you guys, but I still want to just do what

1550
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:22,439
Speaker 2: I do well, which is produce records like I'll you know,

1551
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 2: and if they don't want to hire me, by the way,

1552
01:13:23,920 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 2: the artists, they don't have to, like sometimes we'll just

1553
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:28,759
Speaker 2: buy finish masters from them. You know, we're not forcing

1554
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 2: anybody to work with us, you know, but some people

1555
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 2: like we'd signed this band Saliva that you know is

1556
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:37,320
Speaker 2: a you know, hasn't made it, you know. They said,

1557
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 2: we've never made a record that sounded the way we wanted.

1558
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 2: We want to work with you guys, as we said

1559
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 2: to them, Okay, let's do a record together. We signed

1560
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:46,360
Speaker 2: them for one album and you know, pretty easy deal

1561
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 2: to make. We have a record right now that Tommy

1562
01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 2: de Benedict. This is working at radio for us and

1563
01:13:52,640 --> 01:13:54,559
Speaker 2: you know, being on the other side of the desk

1564
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 2: a little bit, so it's an interesting, you know, place

1565
01:13:57,760 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 2: to see things.

1566
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,559
Speaker 1: Okay, let's pull back lens. Okay, what is funding this?

1567
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 2: We well, Neil and I pay for everything.

1568
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:11,839
Speaker 1: Okay, it's not from an advance from Sony or anything

1569
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:15,960
Speaker 1: like that. What do you mean? Sorry, But my point

1570
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 1: is you and your partner are paying for the whole thing.

1571
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 1: You're the bank.

1572
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 2: Yes, we're ok. We have not taken any money from anyone.

1573
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 1: Ok But there's no third party income other than if

1574
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,959
Speaker 1: you're actually streaming something or whatever. So how many records

1575
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,360
Speaker 1: have you signed or put out.

1576
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:37,320
Speaker 2: We've put out That's a really good question. I'd have

1577
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 2: to look at the catalog. But with a lot of

1578
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:44,120
Speaker 2: the singles and doubles, you know, one home run with

1579
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 2: Breaking Benjamin at Star Set. We went to number one

1580
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 2: with that one. I say, we've signed. This is our

1581
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 2: busiest year. We're putting out four albums in the next

1582
01:14:54,400 --> 01:15:00,559
Speaker 2: four months. Saliva album, a album by Dead Habits, which

1583
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 2: is the singer from Escape the Fate, his band, Caleb Piles,

1584
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:10,800
Speaker 2: the Christian artists that we're working with, and god, who's

1585
01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:13,920
Speaker 2: the fourth one. I'm spacing out right now, but oh

1586
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 2: Ray Garrison Silo's project. So we have a publicist on

1587
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:20,680
Speaker 2: board outside that we hired for that, and so it

1588
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:22,760
Speaker 2: runs like a record real record company, and my job

1589
01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 2: is mostly to be wheeled in to make some you know,

1590
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 2: the bigger decisions since I'm paying for it. Same with Neil.

1591
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 2: But we have like ten ninety nine employees as well

1592
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:34,160
Speaker 2: for this one who work you know, with us, And

1593
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 2: once you get down to it, you're really looking at

1594
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:39,759
Speaker 2: two or three people that can do the work because

1595
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 2: being with the Orchard gives us a big advantage. They

1596
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 2: have a good staff there, so they do a lot

1597
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 2: of that you know, royalty stuff for us. They pay

1598
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 2: the royalties and all they do, also do the marketing,

1599
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:51,400
Speaker 2: they do the social media stuff for us. We do

1600
01:15:51,439 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 2: a lot of it too, but they augment that. So

1601
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:56,240
Speaker 2: we're not just sitting here alone on the ocean by ourselves.

1602
01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 2: We have a partner. We're paying them eighteen percent for that,

1603
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 2: though we do have to pay them a distribution fee.

1604
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 2: So yeah, I had to learn this from scratch, by

1605
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:08,680
Speaker 2: the way, in twenty twenty. It was like learning a

1606
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:12,200
Speaker 2: new business from It was like an upside down business

1607
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,080
Speaker 2: to me because I was used to like, you know, here,

1608
01:16:14,120 --> 01:16:16,439
Speaker 2: we make full albums, we go to radio, you know

1609
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:18,760
Speaker 2: what I mean, like the traditional record business. It wasn't

1610
01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:20,840
Speaker 2: like focused on social media or anything like that. Now

1611
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:23,280
Speaker 2: it's all so it's so focused on that stuff.

1612
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:26,599
Speaker 1: Okay, is this a vanity project? Are you guys making

1613
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 1: any money?

1614
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're making money. Yeah.

1615
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: Okay, So you talked earlier about rock not streaming. What

1616
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: is the state of rock today? Well?

1617
01:16:37,439 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 2: Rock? Okay. The trick in our company just because I

1618
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 2: know the numbers keep the cost down, which is why

1619
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 2: the studio really has a lot to do with it.

1620
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 2: We don't have to pay those kind of things if

1621
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 2: I produce it I'm not charging. Neil's not charging. Our

1622
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 2: biggest expense is on putting a record out. Are really

1623
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 2: the marketing expenses.

1624
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: You know.

1625
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 2: The cost of doing the projects is not that much

1626
01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 2: because we have all that. That's part of the reason

1627
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 2: we started it is we figured, Okay, we can defray

1628
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 2: a lot of these costs because we're the ones doing

1629
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:12,200
Speaker 2: the albums. So if we stream, say, you know, twenty

1630
01:17:12,240 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: million streams, we can make enough money to make money

1631
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 2: on that project. Not every record does that, but once

1632
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 2: you start building the catalog up, the catalog becomes worth something.

1633
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:23,920
Speaker 2: As you know, you can sell catalogs later for like

1634
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:26,800
Speaker 2: ten times earnings. So the trick is to own the own,

1635
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 2: you know, to keep building up your you know, the

1636
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 2: value of your catalog, your your intellectual properties. And I

1637
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 2: learned that as a producer because I have a lot

1638
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 2: of that stuff in my you know, people are always

1639
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:41,080
Speaker 2: trying to buy my catalog as a producer. So we

1640
01:17:41,160 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 2: just said, you know what, why don't we do it

1641
01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:44,599
Speaker 2: as a record company. Neil sees that from three days Grace,

1642
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:45,320
Speaker 2: you know.

1643
01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:50,600
Speaker 1: So let's just go sideways for a second. Sure, have

1644
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:51,840
Speaker 1: you sold any rights?

1645
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:53,120
Speaker 3: No?

1646
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:58,880
Speaker 1: Would you no? Give me your philosophy.

1647
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:02,760
Speaker 2: It's you're dumb ast shit to sell them unless you

1648
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:04,559
Speaker 2: you know, when you sell them, you have like four

1649
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 2: wives and seventeen kids. You have to split the money

1650
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:08,960
Speaker 2: up with and you can't, you know what I mean.

1651
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,679
Speaker 2: I'm lucky. I have the same wife of thirty five years,

1652
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 2: and my kid's great at royalties. I don't need. I

1653
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,640
Speaker 2: don't have any of that stuff. Like Mike, you know,

1654
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:21,200
Speaker 2: my son's great at finding sound exchange royalties that didn't exist,

1655
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 2: or you know, going to Sony and saying, hey this

1656
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: you know project this record you did blah blah blah.

1657
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 2: The point schedul didn't give the escalations or all the

1658
01:18:31,200 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 2: you know, the AFM after money is not coming in,

1659
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 2: where is it? He's listed as a keyboard. You know,

1660
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 2: you need somebody on staff to do that, and my kid,

1661
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,760
Speaker 2: luckily is on staff, so he has made me a

1662
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:46,760
Speaker 2: lot of money. Grady finding missing royalties. Not everybody's like that,

1663
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,960
Speaker 2: but to me, it's an appreciating asset music, Like it's

1664
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 2: only going to go higher because you're gonna have more

1665
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 2: people getting Spotify. I mean, this is we're like in

1666
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,320
Speaker 2: the second inning of this right now. So why would

1667
01:18:58,360 --> 01:18:59,880
Speaker 2: you sell it. You're not going to get that in

1668
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 2: come anywhere else. First of all, why do people want

1669
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 2: to buy it so badly? Do you know what I mean?

1670
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not forcing people. They're coming to me

1671
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:12,679
Speaker 2: all the time.

1672
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:16,240
Speaker 1: It just cracks me up. You know, you're a musician.

1673
01:19:16,280 --> 01:19:19,360
Speaker 1: These people who are saying their business is money. The

1674
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 1: people who are buying it, they're not buying it if

1675
01:19:22,040 --> 01:19:25,120
Speaker 1: they're not making money. It's crazy.

1676
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 2: That's all you really have to think about. It's that

1677
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:30,120
Speaker 2: part of it, you know. I mean, you're dying for

1678
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 2: these royalties. It's a cash machine. Think about it. Every

1679
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what's going on in the world. The

1680
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,679
Speaker 2: reason why hoobastank is going to stream every day somewhere,

1681
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:44,400
Speaker 2: and why would I give that away?

1682
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,080
Speaker 1: You know, I'm with you totally on this. Let's go

1683
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:50,840
Speaker 1: back though. You talked about Judge and jury, rock the

1684
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,240
Speaker 1: rock world in general. Give me your take.

1685
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 2: You know, it's a This is one of those things

1686
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:00,400
Speaker 2: that either I sleep well at night or keeps me night.

1687
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:03,240
Speaker 2: But when I go to like Louder than Life and

1688
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:05,599
Speaker 2: I go, oh my god, this is healthy. Look at

1689
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:09,120
Speaker 2: all these kids. They're killing each other out there. It's awesome.

1690
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 2: And then you look at the streaming and you go, yikes.

1691
01:20:13,120 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 2: You know, like some half the bands are not streaming

1692
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:19,280
Speaker 2: anything here. So I think it's like, look, it's not

1693
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 2: as lucrative as it used to be. But I think

1694
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 2: if you're smart about it and you don't overspend, and

1695
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 2: you have compelling material. I keep going back to this

1696
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 2: with my company. We need to have great material. A

1697
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:34,639
Speaker 2: lot of the material or these rock bands are doing

1698
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 2: is not great. It's okay, you know, it's not where

1699
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:41,479
Speaker 2: it used to be, where we were the forefront of

1700
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:45,840
Speaker 2: you know, talking about things that nobody wanted to talk about.

1701
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,960
Speaker 2: We were, you know, the bad boys. You know, we're

1702
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 2: no longer the bad boys anymore. It's just bland. So

1703
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 2: as much as I talk a good game, I'm still

1704
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 2: trying to get that to be in our music. But

1705
01:20:57,360 --> 01:20:58,920
Speaker 2: it's hard because some of the artists are just not

1706
01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 2: like that anymore. You know, they're not saying anything that's

1707
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:05,680
Speaker 2: that radical or anything. I mean, I just I don't know,

1708
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure what to think about it. Sometimes.

1709
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 2: All I know is I love doing it, and that's

1710
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 2: you know. I just love the sound of a good

1711
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 2: rock song. I don't know, you know, maybe that's a

1712
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:18,559
Speaker 2: bad explanation, you know, I don't know.

1713
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:23,200
Speaker 1: Okay, in terms of the percentage of new music listening,

1714
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 1: is rock just not being promoted and marketed correctly or

1715
01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:33,640
Speaker 1: is the audience not listening to it? In the percentage

1716
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 1: it used to be a reflection of the music itself.

1717
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:38,799
Speaker 2: I think it has to do with the star power

1718
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:41,040
Speaker 2: of the of the artists. We're not I don't think

1719
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,439
Speaker 2: that right now we're selling music anymore. We're selling brands,

1720
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 2: and the bands are just not good brand. They're not

1721
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,599
Speaker 2: like branded. You compare the brand of Olivia Rodriguez to

1722
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:53,680
Speaker 2: the brand of say, you know, a band like you know,

1723
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:56,639
Speaker 2: bad Omens, which is a big band and bad Omens

1724
01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:58,439
Speaker 2: does pretty well, but they're never going to compete with

1725
01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:01,439
Speaker 2: a brand like that, with a or swift brand. You know,

1726
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:05,040
Speaker 2: there's things are just massive, they connect more. You know,

1727
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:08,600
Speaker 2: we just don't have that for whatever reason. And it

1728
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:11,719
Speaker 2: comes down it's not I can't fix that. The artists

1729
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 2: have to do it. Like you know, I remember back

1730
01:22:13,960 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 2: when van Halen came out, nobody thought Van Halen would

1731
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:18,439
Speaker 2: work back then, but you know what, they were so

1732
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 2: special and so great and so different that they came

1733
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,280
Speaker 2: out of they came out and stuck out. They created

1734
01:22:24,280 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 2: something that wasn't there before. We're just not doing that.

1735
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:30,880
Speaker 2: We're just not you know. So, I mean it's a

1736
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:31,880
Speaker 2: really tricky question.

1737
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 1: I thought, well, well, but you're in the heart of it,

1738
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:37,559
Speaker 1: So let's go so in what's called active rock as

1739
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,400
Speaker 1: a radio for a bat Okay, let me put it

1740
01:22:41,439 --> 01:22:46,519
Speaker 1: this way. I remember when led Zeppelin was considered heavy

1741
01:22:46,600 --> 01:22:50,559
Speaker 1: metal and Black Sabbath was too far out. You listen

1742
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:53,880
Speaker 1: to active rock a lot of these records. I feel

1743
01:22:54,120 --> 01:22:56,679
Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to the history of forty years

1744
01:22:56,720 --> 01:22:58,760
Speaker 1: worth of music, you don't know how they got there.

1745
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 1: So that the the average person who hears it the

1746
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:06,799
Speaker 1: first time, they're not immediately into it. So the question

1747
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:10,920
Speaker 1: becomes is it the music itself? Is it the acts?

1748
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:14,600
Speaker 1: Is rock played out? Could it be shaken up? You

1749
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:18,040
Speaker 1: talk about the Beatles doing harmonies the best whatever the

1750
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:24,360
Speaker 1: Beatles did, harmony's choruses, bridges starting with the chorus versus

1751
01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:26,479
Speaker 1: you're not hearing an active rock.

1752
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 2: No you're not, And there's no story really Like you

1753
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:32,200
Speaker 2: were just alluding to this a little bit that when

1754
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 2: you hear a led Zeppelin record, there's a story behind

1755
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,599
Speaker 2: it and you're hearing you know, even a Who record,

1756
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:40,960
Speaker 2: there's a story you can think of. I can't think

1757
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:44,200
Speaker 2: of a story behind most of these bands, Like there

1758
01:23:44,240 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 2: isn't any story. You know, people like to have that

1759
01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:48,759
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But when you think of Tyer Swift,

1760
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:50,559
Speaker 2: you think of a story. I mean the kids, do

1761
01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 2: you know when you think of you know, a lot

1762
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 2: of huge pop bands. You know, Billie Eilish is a

1763
01:23:56,479 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 2: great one, there's a story there. It's like, look at

1764
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:00,120
Speaker 2: you know where she came from and her brother and

1765
01:24:00,160 --> 01:24:02,040
Speaker 2: all this stuff. And you know, we just don't. We're

1766
01:24:02,040 --> 01:24:04,560
Speaker 2: not good at telling stories anymore in our business. And

1767
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,920
Speaker 2: I'm not really sure why, you know, I'm not sure

1768
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:09,320
Speaker 2: where it's coming from. I think the active rock thing

1769
01:24:09,400 --> 01:24:11,960
Speaker 2: is a really we There's always been this problem with

1770
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 2: active rock where it just becomes its own worst enemy

1771
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 2: because it starts sounding like everything else. It sounds like

1772
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,000
Speaker 2: everything else on there, and it just because like I

1773
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 2: was listening to Octane this morning and I was like,

1774
01:24:22,240 --> 01:24:24,160
Speaker 2: oh my god, I can't tell the difference between any

1775
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 2: of these projects. They all sound the same, and by

1776
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 2: the way, I'm one of them, you know, Like it's

1777
01:24:30,840 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 2: almost like if you don't get the texture. And al

1778
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 2: In Kovak, who you know is great at active rock,

1779
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:39,240
Speaker 2: you know, he used to say this stuff in meetings.

1780
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 2: He would say, you need to get the texture right.

1781
01:24:42,160 --> 01:24:44,519
Speaker 2: In other words, it needs to sound like active rock

1782
01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,320
Speaker 2: to be on active rock. Who cares about the songs

1783
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:51,720
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. What matters is the texture. I don't look.

1784
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:53,640
Speaker 2: I wish it wasn't like that, because I think the

1785
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:56,960
Speaker 2: songs matter, you know, but active rock has turned into

1786
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,400
Speaker 2: a thing where it's a texture based thing. I think

1787
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,639
Speaker 2: in pop music it's more the songs have to be great,

1788
01:25:02,840 --> 01:25:04,800
Speaker 2: you know, because you could hear pop music and it

1789
01:25:04,840 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 2: sounds like the old broadcasting where everything was different. You know,

1790
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:10,719
Speaker 2: you could put on like a station, there'd be something

1791
01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:12,559
Speaker 2: like this, something like that, something like this, and active

1792
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:16,240
Speaker 2: rockets all the same, you know. So I mean I

1793
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,200
Speaker 2: joke with Three Days Grace. You guys could fart on

1794
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:19,519
Speaker 2: the tape and it's going to go to number one,

1795
01:25:19,520 --> 01:25:22,240
Speaker 2: you know, you know.

1796
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,880
Speaker 1: Okay, just Three Days Grace been around for a while,

1797
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 1: but you've been around even longer. The people coming across

1798
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 1: the transom, are they different today?

1799
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:40,400
Speaker 2: As far as the artists, Yeah, you know, they try

1800
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:42,600
Speaker 2: to be like, we have an artist we work with.

1801
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 2: It's a bit more of the DM side.

1802
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:49,320
Speaker 1: And let me reframe my question. Okay, back in the

1803
01:25:49,439 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: days of the English rock stars of the sixties and seventies,

1804
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:56,120
Speaker 1: they tended to be people who were not great socially

1805
01:25:56,280 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: did it to get laid? There was no social media.

1806
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:03,320
Speaker 1: They practice, they practice, they practice, they got their notoriety.

1807
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:05,760
Speaker 1: Today you have a lot of people, Oh I learned

1808
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:10,240
Speaker 1: three chords, let me start promoting myself. So the people

1809
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:15,040
Speaker 1: who come in as people as desire, as creativity, what

1810
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:16,560
Speaker 1: have you seen change?

1811
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 2: It's so much more based on how many followers you have.

1812
01:26:21,160 --> 01:26:23,880
Speaker 2: That's the first thing they tell you when you meet

1813
01:26:23,880 --> 01:26:27,479
Speaker 2: a band is their social media following, you know, because

1814
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 2: they assume that that's what we want to hear about,

1815
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:33,759
Speaker 2: do you know, And it's probably true, you know, because

1816
01:26:33,840 --> 01:26:37,959
Speaker 2: it's really hard to take something from zero to It's

1817
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 2: like we have this you know. Look, it's hard to

1818
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 2: get from the goal line to the twenty. It's a

1819
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:46,400
Speaker 2: lot easier to get from the fifty to the goal

1820
01:26:46,479 --> 01:26:48,559
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So it's really hard to

1821
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 2: start this up. So bands end up becoming you know,

1822
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:56,519
Speaker 2: not only artists, but performers and videos and they do

1823
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:58,720
Speaker 2: anything they can to get attention. It's less focused on

1824
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 2: the music and the songs actually focused more on the notoriety.

1825
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:04,559
Speaker 2: But it's even hard to do that to break through that.

1826
01:27:04,760 --> 01:27:07,920
Speaker 2: You know, there's just so many people competing, you know.

1827
01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 2: Craig Common once said to me, it's the dumbing down

1828
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 2: of art the Internet, Like there's just so much dumb

1829
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:15,599
Speaker 2: art out there. It's really hard to get yourself noticed.

1830
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 2: And I think bands because they're working with two guitars,

1831
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 2: bass and drums, it's even harder. You know, you're you know,

1832
01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:24,599
Speaker 2: if you'ren't using those instruments, you're not considered a rock band.

1833
01:27:25,120 --> 01:27:27,240
Speaker 2: You know, well a courdy the well, the Grammys would

1834
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:29,680
Speaker 2: maybe say it's differently because they put things in the

1835
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,000
Speaker 2: rock category that are.

1836
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:35,160
Speaker 1: Let's not get into the Grammys. You know that's coming.

1837
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 3: I was.

1838
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:39,320
Speaker 1: I got my own issues there and that's but let's

1839
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:42,479
Speaker 1: go back to the bands. Okay, I have a manager,

1840
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:45,760
Speaker 1: ultra successful, you know who this person is, doesn't want

1841
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: to manage any band, say's too complicated, just wants to

1842
01:27:49,439 --> 01:27:52,640
Speaker 1: manage solo artists. Where that person's and maybe there is

1843
01:27:52,680 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 1: a band, but it's clear there's a leader. Do you

1844
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:56,040
Speaker 1: have a take on that?

1845
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 2: Well, I totally see his point of view, because you

1846
01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,000
Speaker 2: can have a really good band that one guy is

1847
01:28:02,080 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 2: the I call it the tyranny of no. They're just

1848
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 2: saying no to everything and they have a vote and

1849
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 2: it's no, no, no, no no, and you're fucked. That's

1850
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:13,599
Speaker 2: it there. And usually it's the guy who can't play,

1851
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:16,639
Speaker 2: the worst guy in the band, and they use their

1852
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:19,640
Speaker 2: no power to stay in the band. I see that

1853
01:28:19,720 --> 01:28:21,360
Speaker 2: a lot in band. It's like you have this really

1854
01:28:21,360 --> 01:28:24,000
Speaker 2: good band with three good guys and say the drummer

1855
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:26,840
Speaker 2: can't play, and they you come up with these good

1856
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:29,760
Speaker 2: ideas about baby, telling more of a story about this

1857
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:33,200
Speaker 2: or that, and they're like, no, no, no, that's not us. No, no, no,

1858
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:37,320
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do? You know, like, you know

1859
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,040
Speaker 2: he's right. Probably, you know, we don't really have that

1860
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 2: ability to discern that stuff because we have to put

1861
01:28:44,520 --> 01:28:46,559
Speaker 2: out projects. We can't just say, well, there's one bad

1862
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 2: guy in the band. We can't do it. We have

1863
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:51,799
Speaker 2: to work around that. But by the way, as a producer,

1864
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,000
Speaker 2: my life is summer camp, do you know what I mean?

1865
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,679
Speaker 2: Like they come in, they leave. As a manager, that's

1866
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:00,280
Speaker 2: a way worse job he's got them, you know what

1867
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:03,360
Speaker 2: I mean? Like, that's you're basically babysitting the whole time.

1868
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:05,639
Speaker 2: You know, I don't only have to babysit for six

1869
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 2: weeks or something. You know.

1870
01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 1: So you say you're a working class kid from Philly,

1871
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 1: Tell me.

1872
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 2: Well, I came up in a blue collar city. And

1873
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:16,639
Speaker 2: I looked at myself as like, oh, well, well, since

1874
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:17,200
Speaker 2: you're saying.

1875
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:19,000
Speaker 1: You're working class kid, what did your parents do for

1876
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:19,439
Speaker 1: a living.

1877
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 2: My did was an insurance salesman okay, and my mom

1878
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:23,599
Speaker 2: was a school teacher.

1879
01:29:23,720 --> 01:29:27,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so straight middle class. How many kids in the family?

1880
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:31,160
Speaker 2: One kid? My brother owns an accounting works as an.

1881
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:33,480
Speaker 1: Accountant as a younger or older.

1882
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 2: Younger two years and he was in a band.

1883
01:29:44,800 --> 01:29:47,439
Speaker 1: So what kind of kid were you? You mentioned watching

1884
01:29:47,439 --> 01:29:50,920
Speaker 1: Sports Center? Were you an athlete? Were you good in school?

1885
01:29:51,000 --> 01:29:52,840
Speaker 1: Were you popular or unpopular?

1886
01:29:53,479 --> 01:29:56,479
Speaker 2: I was. I was in a band from when I can.

1887
01:29:57,120 --> 01:30:00,680
Speaker 2: I was kind of a chubby, fat kid. So my

1888
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:04,680
Speaker 2: way of getting girls was being somehow. A kid came

1889
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:06,680
Speaker 2: to my house one day with his band. It'say, could

1890
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 2: we use your basement? And I said, yeah, you could

1891
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,720
Speaker 2: use my basement, but I have an organ down there

1892
01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 2: I can play. I couldn't play, but I told him

1893
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,000
Speaker 2: I could and it was a pipe pump organ, and

1894
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:18,720
Speaker 2: that it caught me, you know what, I mean that

1895
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:22,639
Speaker 2: I got the disease because like I could play stepping

1896
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 2: Stone by the Monkeys, there's only four notes, and all

1897
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you girls would show up in the basement,

1898
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 2: you know. So you know how that is? One thing

1899
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 2: leads to another and I'm playing in bands all around

1900
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 2: Philly and I, uh.

1901
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:38,639
Speaker 1: Well, let's slow down, wait to slow down. Yeah, did

1902
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:40,080
Speaker 1: you ever take music lessons?

1903
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 2: Well, my mom was a music teacher, so I learned

1904
01:30:43,520 --> 01:30:46,839
Speaker 2: it from her naturally. I used to hear her play piano.

1905
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:49,200
Speaker 2: It is a funny story. She used to play my

1906
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 2: favorite things downstairs. I would un her upstairs and the

1907
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,120
Speaker 2: chord progression is the same as Light by Fire, and

1908
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 2: I remember how much I love Light by Fire. And

1909
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:58,960
Speaker 2: only years later did I put together the two things,

1910
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:01,160
Speaker 2: and I went, you know what, I think that's because

1911
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 2: she kept playing my favorite things downstairs, you know. So yeah,

1912
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 2: I just I used to be one of those guys

1913
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:09,640
Speaker 2: that dropped the needle on things and just learned it

1914
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:12,120
Speaker 2: by year I developed a really good ear. I can't

1915
01:31:12,120 --> 01:31:14,479
Speaker 2: read music that well. I'm good chord changes. I can

1916
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 2: read chord change. I can read like charts really well,

1917
01:31:17,600 --> 01:31:20,479
Speaker 2: but I can't read music, read music music like you know,

1918
01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 2: you can't put chopin in front of me.

1919
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:28,840
Speaker 1: Oh okay. So you're playing piano at what age?

1920
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:29,280
Speaker 2: Organ?

1921
01:31:30,080 --> 01:31:30,800
Speaker 1: Oh? Organ?

1922
01:31:31,600 --> 01:31:32,719
Speaker 2: Like eleven twelve?

1923
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:38,679
Speaker 1: Okay? And this interaction where they you're playing in the basement.

1924
01:31:38,720 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: How old are you then?

1925
01:31:40,760 --> 01:31:44,240
Speaker 2: Thirteen? Bar Mitzvah. I was getting bar Mitzvah about then.

1926
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:48,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so they're playing in your basement. Did the bands

1927
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,040
Speaker 1: whoever in play out play gigs?

1928
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, we played bar Mitzvah's and you know what happened.

1929
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:57,080
Speaker 2: I got really good, really fast, better than the rest

1930
01:31:57,080 --> 01:32:00,559
Speaker 2: of the guys. So I started to learn songs like

1931
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:02,920
Speaker 2: in a Gotta Davida and the doors and things that day,

1932
01:32:02,960 --> 01:32:06,479
Speaker 2: didn't you know? They were like, what is this stuff?

1933
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:06,720
Speaker 1: You know?

1934
01:32:07,120 --> 01:32:10,160
Speaker 2: We want to play you know, rolling Stones music? And

1935
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,040
Speaker 2: I started gravitating more towards keyboard stuff and all, and

1936
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:15,240
Speaker 2: then I you know, back then, you just played in

1937
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 2: any band that was around, you know, like you're there

1938
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:20,599
Speaker 2: was another band they needed a keyboard player. I dragged

1939
01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:24,200
Speaker 2: my Vox organ you know RMI actually an RMI organ

1940
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:27,080
Speaker 2: over to their house and play. So when I went

1941
01:32:27,080 --> 01:32:28,200
Speaker 2: to Drexel.

1942
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Were okay, continue continue.

1943
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I played in the high school bands.

1944
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:34,720
Speaker 2: I still have all the notes, by the way, I

1945
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:37,360
Speaker 2: kept everything. So we played like you know, bar Mitzvah's

1946
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 2: and I don't know, churches, just stupid stuff, you know,

1947
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 2: like with thirty people would show up. But I started

1948
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:46,920
Speaker 2: learning songs, like learning how to play other people's music.

1949
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:49,280
Speaker 2: So I play. I knew all the Stone songs, I

1950
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:51,040
Speaker 2: knew the Door songs, I knew the Beatles songs. I

1951
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:54,920
Speaker 2: learned all the songs of the moment. And when I

1952
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,759
Speaker 2: turned seventeen or eighteen, I wanted to go to school Drexel.

1953
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:00,599
Speaker 2: I wanted to get it. At that time, I wasn't

1954
01:33:00,600 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 2: thinking about being a music pro. I was good, and

1955
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,240
Speaker 2: I'd liked math and science, so I wanted to be

1956
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:08,479
Speaker 2: an engineer. So I went to Drexel University and enrolled

1957
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 2: in the materials engineering department. Of course, but then I

1958
01:33:12,360 --> 01:33:15,519
Speaker 2: dragged my Hammond dorgan down the Drexel with me, joined

1959
01:33:15,520 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 2: a fraternity, put it in the basement, started learning Emersus

1960
01:33:18,280 --> 01:33:22,120
Speaker 2: Lincoln Palmer on it Tarcas, and these people were hearing

1961
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 2: this through the neighborhood because I had it turned up

1962
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,040
Speaker 2: at full blast and people would come around and watch

1963
01:33:26,080 --> 01:33:30,479
Speaker 2: me play Tarcas. And another band got together, a fraternity band.

1964
01:33:30,479 --> 01:33:32,639
Speaker 2: I joined that one, and then another band got together

1965
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 2: where I would play Amersus Lincoln Palmer, and you know,

1966
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:40,120
Speaker 2: then something really interesting happened. A band came through with

1967
01:33:40,240 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 2: Lee Andrews and the Hearts. He was a Philly guy

1968
01:33:43,439 --> 01:33:45,400
Speaker 2: and he had a hit song back in this fifties.

1969
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:49,240
Speaker 2: There was a seven piece band, a disco band with him.

1970
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:53,960
Speaker 2: I was like the social chairman of the fraternity at

1971
01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 2: the time, and these guys and I said, well, you

1972
01:33:57,400 --> 01:33:59,639
Speaker 2: don't have a keyboard player, and they said, well, we're

1973
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,080
Speaker 2: not going to be with him anymore. Do you want

1974
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 2: to join the band? And I was like okay, and

1975
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:07,000
Speaker 2: I joined the band and we started playing disco techs

1976
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 2: around South Jersey back in the day where the Penalty

1977
01:34:10,400 --> 01:34:14,800
Speaker 2: Box was someplace else, wild Wood, Cape, May, all those

1978
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:19,000
Speaker 2: Jerseys shore towns, and that's where I really got good

1979
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:21,240
Speaker 2: at it, because I had to learn how to arrange

1980
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:25,680
Speaker 2: beg songs and Bowie songs and songs that were more sophisticated.

1981
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:28,439
Speaker 2: So I started learning how to do horn arrangements, and

1982
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:30,400
Speaker 2: this thing just started. But I was still going to

1983
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:33,479
Speaker 2: Drexel and during my engineering degree, so I was like

1984
01:34:33,720 --> 01:34:36,599
Speaker 2: literally living twenty four hours at a time, you know,

1985
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,040
Speaker 2: driving back and forth from the shore, playing in this

1986
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:44,879
Speaker 2: disco band. And eventually I started writing our own material

1987
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:48,640
Speaker 2: and it wasn't any good. I graduated from college. The

1988
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:50,600
Speaker 2: band I was in wanted to come to La. We

1989
01:34:50,640 --> 01:34:52,280
Speaker 2: came out to LA. I got a job at Air

1990
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 2: Research at Garrett down in the South Bay as a

1991
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,880
Speaker 2: mechanical engineer, and I worked there for four years. So

1992
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:01,840
Speaker 2: I worked, you know, promoted a few times. I was

1993
01:35:01,840 --> 01:35:04,160
Speaker 2: a good engineer, Actually I liked it. I worked on

1994
01:35:04,200 --> 01:35:06,599
Speaker 2: the C five B. I worked on lead edge slat

1995
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 2: actuation systems for F eighteen's. I worked on the Space Shuttle,

1996
01:35:12,479 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 2: the orbital gimbo actuators. I worked on all that stuff.

1997
01:35:15,160 --> 01:35:18,240
Speaker 2: I was a mechanical engineer, so these are actuators that

1998
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:21,519
Speaker 2: actually move the surfaces. But at nighttime, I was going

1999
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:24,040
Speaker 2: to Sunset Sound because I knew the second engineer there

2000
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:28,799
Speaker 2: who get free studio time, So you know, you're hustling,

2001
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:30,600
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that's what you're doing. So

2002
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,120
Speaker 2: I was hustling studio time at night and getting bands

2003
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 2: that were local, like Jack Mack in the Heart Attack.

2004
01:35:35,760 --> 01:35:38,840
Speaker 2: I'd get them studio time, I met them somehow a band,

2005
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 2: and you know, I was learning how to I didn't

2006
01:35:42,280 --> 01:35:44,000
Speaker 2: really know what my job was yet, you know what

2007
01:35:44,080 --> 01:35:45,439
Speaker 2: I mean, Like, I didn't know there was a I

2008
01:35:45,520 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 2: knew the producers were producers, but I was just trying

2009
01:35:48,720 --> 01:35:51,600
Speaker 2: to make music. And then all of a sudden it

2010
01:35:51,720 --> 01:35:53,439
Speaker 2: clicked to me, like, wait a minute, I really don't

2011
01:35:53,439 --> 01:35:55,040
Speaker 2: want to be in any of these bands. I want

2012
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:57,120
Speaker 2: to be the guy that calls the shots. First of all,

2013
01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:59,040
Speaker 2: I don't have to tour. I don't want to tour.

2014
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 2: A second, it combines engineering and music, and I'm kind

2015
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:07,960
Speaker 2: of okay at both of those things. You know. I

2016
01:36:07,960 --> 01:36:09,840
Speaker 2: did take a year off from Drexel and went to

2017
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:12,320
Speaker 2: music school. I went to Philadelphia College of Performing Arts.

2018
01:36:12,640 --> 01:36:15,760
Speaker 1: Wait, wait a little bit slong. Yeah, sorry, there's a

2019
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:20,640
Speaker 1: scene in Philly. Okay, there's the whole black scene, but

2020
01:36:20,760 --> 01:36:23,599
Speaker 1: you also have Hall and Oates, you have the guys

2021
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,880
Speaker 1: in the Hooters. Did you intersect with those people.

2022
01:36:26,600 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 2: At all zero. Never I was in this suburban Philly scene,

2023
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:35,160
Speaker 2: whatever that was, you know, and the Northeast Philly scene.

2024
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 2: The guys in my band were all from Northeast Philly.

2025
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 2: They all went to Catholic schools and we played the proms,

2026
01:36:40,760 --> 01:36:44,120
Speaker 2: all the Catholic school proms. Their father Judge holy ghost.

2027
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:47,240
Speaker 1: But even when you were in college, you did intersect

2028
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:47,679
Speaker 1: with those.

2029
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 2: People though, the only time I met Gamble I met

2030
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:54,320
Speaker 2: him at a fundraiser about ten years ago to raise

2031
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 2: money for Jefferson Hospital or something like that. So I

2032
01:36:57,520 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 2: met him, and I was really stoked to meet him

2033
01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:01,960
Speaker 2: because he wrote Expressway to Your Heart, which is one

2034
01:37:01,960 --> 01:37:04,479
Speaker 2: of my favorite songs because I drove on the Scoogle

2035
01:37:04,479 --> 01:37:08,120
Speaker 2: Expressway a lot. So I was stoked to meet him.

2036
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:09,720
Speaker 2: And I love the Spinners, you know what I mean.

2037
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,760
Speaker 2: I grew up listening to all that stuff, all the

2038
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:13,920
Speaker 2: Philly soul stuff. But I never met them. I never interacted.

2039
01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,360
Speaker 1: Oh oh, okay, just to clear ups and data. You

2040
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:21,000
Speaker 1: graduate from Drexel, you work in Long Beach or somewhere

2041
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,480
Speaker 1: down there. The band comes.

2042
01:37:23,200 --> 01:37:26,680
Speaker 2: Out too, Yeah, and the drummer came out.

2043
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:27,799
Speaker 1: What happened with the band?

2044
01:37:28,439 --> 01:37:30,960
Speaker 2: They were all college graduates. So they all school, they

2045
01:37:30,960 --> 01:37:34,479
Speaker 2: all had jobs, so one worked at Farmer's Insurance.

2046
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 1: Now I'm less worried, I'm less interested in what they

2047
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 1: did for jobs. What was going on with the band?

2048
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 2: Oh our band? Well, we got an invet Okay, the

2049
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,960
Speaker 2: Dubin family from Philadelphia. They own a paper company, big

2050
01:37:49,000 --> 01:37:52,040
Speaker 2: paper company. They were friends with this guy, Edward Slockin.

2051
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:57,280
Speaker 2: His father owned the Beverly Hills Hotel in nineteen eighty

2052
01:37:57,320 --> 01:38:00,960
Speaker 2: two before he sold it to Marvin Mill who sold

2053
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,680
Speaker 2: it to the bar Nay. This guy had a lot

2054
01:38:03,680 --> 01:38:06,640
Speaker 2: of money, so one thing led to another and he

2055
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:11,240
Speaker 2: became our investor. So we got it in the studio

2056
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 2: through Sunset Sound. The people I met with producers. One

2057
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:17,920
Speaker 2: of the producers was Dennis Kirk, the other one was

2058
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:22,400
Speaker 2: Chris Bond, And we tried to make demos. We were

2059
01:38:22,400 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 2: fucking horrible because we were This is kind of like

2060
01:38:26,640 --> 01:38:30,080
Speaker 2: comes into the rest of it. But at one point

2061
01:38:30,080 --> 01:38:33,800
Speaker 2: the producer said to me, you're unproducible. You're just such

2062
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:36,200
Speaker 2: a jerk in there. You always won it your way.

2063
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:39,680
Speaker 2: And finally I ended up producing the sessions, and you know,

2064
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:41,880
Speaker 2: in the back of my mind, I'm going I kind

2065
01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:43,680
Speaker 2: of liked this gig better than the gig I have,

2066
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 2: which is just sitting here bounding on keyboards, you know.

2067
01:38:47,080 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 2: So you know, I think that's kind of how it

2068
01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:53,360
Speaker 2: led to that, because I just like everybody's career, it's

2069
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:55,400
Speaker 2: like it fits and starts, you know what I mean,

2070
01:38:55,479 --> 01:39:00,599
Speaker 2: like things. I remember after we made our demo, Eddie

2071
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:04,759
Speaker 2: said the manager, Oh, Clive Davis is in Bungalow four

2072
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:06,880
Speaker 2: at the Beverly Hills Hotel. I'm going to take them

2073
01:39:06,880 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 2: the demo. You'll be signed by this time tomorrow, right,

2074
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:14,280
Speaker 2: So you know, he goes into Clive's bungalow, which, by

2075
01:39:14,320 --> 01:39:16,280
Speaker 2: the way, thirty years later, I told Clive I have

2076
01:39:16,320 --> 01:39:18,519
Speaker 2: a bone to pick with you, and I called him out.

2077
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,760
Speaker 2: So he goes to Clive and he goes, this is

2078
01:39:21,800 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 2: the band that I've been managing, and I paid for

2079
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:26,479
Speaker 2: this demo, and Clive goes, he puts it on, and

2080
01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:29,120
Speaker 2: he goes tell them to stick with their day jobs.

2081
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:34,680
Speaker 2: It was crushing moment. Crushing, right, I thought I was

2082
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:35,960
Speaker 2: going to be able to quit my day job.

2083
01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 3: You know.

2084
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:38,720
Speaker 2: Say I worked another two years at Garrett This is

2085
01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:41,400
Speaker 2: now in nineteen eighty four or something like that, and

2086
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 2: Finally I said to my parents. I call my parents

2087
01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:45,479
Speaker 2: up and I was like, look, I know you you

2088
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:47,439
Speaker 2: know suffered to get me through college, but I'm going

2089
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:50,000
Speaker 2: to do this for I'm going to try this, you know.

2090
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:52,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to move to the valley to Encino, to

2091
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:55,320
Speaker 2: a little house and live in the garage. Was pretty

2092
01:39:55,360 --> 01:39:57,320
Speaker 2: much what I was doing. Set up my eight track

2093
01:39:57,360 --> 01:39:59,639
Speaker 2: FoST X and try it.

2094
01:39:59,760 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 1: You know.

2095
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:03,240
Speaker 2: And the problem with leaving an aerospace job is once

2096
01:40:03,280 --> 01:40:05,559
Speaker 2: you leave your aerospace job, it's hard to get back

2097
01:40:05,560 --> 01:40:09,640
Speaker 2: into it because the technology takes off after that. So

2098
01:40:09,880 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 2: after about three or four months, I was kind of

2099
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:15,200
Speaker 2: committed to it. So it took me two years to

2100
01:40:15,200 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 2: produce my first album. At that point, I got lucky

2101
01:40:17,439 --> 01:40:21,240
Speaker 2: and got a Tsol album that was on Enigma Records

2102
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 2: that they had not delivered and the band they were

2103
01:40:24,439 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 2: ready to get dropped, and a friend of mine knew them,

2104
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:27,920
Speaker 2: and one thing led to another. I got him in

2105
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:29,559
Speaker 2: the studio. I finished the album, I got my first

2106
01:40:29,560 --> 01:40:32,600
Speaker 2: producer credit, and then two years went by and I

2107
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:34,759
Speaker 2: got my next producer credit, which was their next album.

2108
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:37,479
Speaker 2: So you know, I wasn't producing very much, but I

2109
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:39,879
Speaker 2: was learning along the way and then I got lucky.

2110
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:41,759
Speaker 2: I met a band called Bang Tango.

2111
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:45,160
Speaker 1: Wait before you get the Bang Tang, what were you

2112
01:40:45,280 --> 01:40:45,760
Speaker 1: living on?

2113
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 2: I was living on demos, and I had met my wife, Monica,

2114
01:40:51,160 --> 01:40:53,559
Speaker 2: who was and she was a publisher at the time.

2115
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 2: And she started giving me, by the way, a lot

2116
01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 2: of grief because she said to me, all you care

2117
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,679
Speaker 2: about her guitar sounds, that's it. You just care about guitars.

2118
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:02,680
Speaker 2: You're not caring about the songs enough. I said, Ah,

2119
01:41:02,680 --> 01:41:04,759
Speaker 2: who guess the fuck about the songs. It's about the guitars,

2120
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:07,720
Speaker 2: you know. And like she's hammering me about this, and

2121
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:09,840
Speaker 2: I'm not listening to her because she's my wife, of course,

2122
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:12,760
Speaker 2: you know. So I'm like, you know, this would come

2123
01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:14,840
Speaker 2: back later when I finally figured it out, you know

2124
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like, Oh, she was right the whole time,

2125
01:41:17,439 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 2: you know. So you know, you know, I struggled a

2126
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:23,479
Speaker 2: long time. I quit my job in eighty four and

2127
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:25,559
Speaker 2: I didn't have a hit record, a real bonafid hit

2128
01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:29,080
Speaker 2: till nineteen ninety nine. It took me fifteen years kids

2129
01:41:29,120 --> 01:41:33,639
Speaker 2: in school, private school, doing demos, keeping my nose clean.

2130
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:36,519
Speaker 2: I worked for Irving at Giant Records in nineteen ninety four.

2131
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:38,960
Speaker 2: That was boot camp for me. I learned how to

2132
01:41:39,080 --> 01:41:41,519
Speaker 2: handle myself in the music business. I met Keith Olson

2133
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:44,920
Speaker 2: about then, still didn't have any hits. It was like,

2134
01:41:45,400 --> 01:41:46,800
Speaker 2: I got to tell you something, man. I was ready

2135
01:41:46,800 --> 01:41:49,840
Speaker 2: to give up. I had really ready to get a

2136
01:41:49,840 --> 01:41:50,799
Speaker 2: real estate license.

2137
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 1: You know.

2138
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:54,800
Speaker 2: There were times where I was making ten thousand bucks

2139
01:41:54,840 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 2: a year. We were living off savings I made. Sylvia wrote,

2140
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 2: you know when after I started having hits, Sylvia Rohane

2141
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 2: hired me and those were all good days. But I

2142
01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:06,800
Speaker 2: paid my dues man, Like, that's when I had my

2143
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 2: first hit. I remember thinking, I am not letting go

2144
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:14,640
Speaker 2: of this not happening. Like this took too long, you know,

2145
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:19,479
Speaker 2: like like you know it was. It was the weirdest

2146
01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:21,479
Speaker 2: thing because I didn't think it was ever going to happen. Actually,

2147
01:42:21,560 --> 01:42:24,960
Speaker 2: I really had kind of mentally almost given up that point,

2148
01:42:25,080 --> 01:42:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, but Pod gave me the chance to do it.

2149
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 2: And you know why. It was protest.

2150
01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:31,719
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, wait, slow down. Tell me about bang

2151
01:42:31,800 --> 01:42:32,559
Speaker 1: Tango first.

2152
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:36,960
Speaker 2: Well, bang Tang was a project I back then in

2153
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:40,160
Speaker 2: the hairband days. Anytime you walked into a club in

2154
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:44,080
Speaker 2: LA they were getting signed. So everybody was getting signed.

2155
01:42:44,080 --> 01:42:46,880
Speaker 2: If you had hair and you could play, you got signed.

2156
01:42:46,880 --> 01:42:48,800
Speaker 2: So I was on the every night I was at

2157
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:52,400
Speaker 2: the Sunset Strip going looking for projects. The Gazari's, you know,

2158
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:56,160
Speaker 2: Whiskey at the time, I think it was the Viper,

2159
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:59,639
Speaker 2: remember the Central Filthy mcnasty's. I forget what it was called,

2160
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:05,400
Speaker 2: but you know, and Brett Hartman over at MCA liked it.

2161
01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:07,760
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with the band a lot because

2162
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:09,920
Speaker 2: I was trying to get in rehearsals, you know, I

2163
01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:12,200
Speaker 2: had to make myself useful. So I would go to

2164
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 2: rehearsals a lot with them, and I would start arranging

2165
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 2: their music. I had no contract or anything, and I

2166
01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:19,680
Speaker 2: got a lawyer who liked me, and one thing led

2167
01:43:19,720 --> 01:43:21,360
Speaker 2: to another and I got the project and then it

2168
01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:24,000
Speaker 2: did pretty well. But that was like, you know, few

2169
01:43:24,040 --> 01:43:26,519
Speaker 2: and far in between those projects at that time that

2170
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:29,759
Speaker 2: did anything. There's no royalties or anything from that stuff.

2171
01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:33,080
Speaker 2: So then I did pretty boy flittle hair bands back then,

2172
01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:34,880
Speaker 2: you know, I was kind of at the end of

2173
01:43:34,920 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 2: the hair band era in a way, kind of got

2174
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 2: into it, you know, but I couldn't compete against the

2175
01:43:39,840 --> 01:43:42,240
Speaker 2: good guys. The guys were killing me, like Tom Worman

2176
01:43:42,360 --> 01:43:47,760
Speaker 2: and you know Michael Wagner, Bo Hill. These guys were

2177
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:48,599
Speaker 2: like legendary to.

2178
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:49,120
Speaker 1: Me back then.

2179
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 2: You know, they were the legends Bob Rock, you know

2180
01:43:53,120 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 2: those guys Fairburn.

2181
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:59,080
Speaker 1: Okay, so the breakthrough was Pod Yeah, So how'd you

2182
01:43:59,120 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: get that gig?

2183
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:03,720
Speaker 2: Well, they call it the The A and R. Guy

2184
01:44:03,840 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 2: actually liked my Bank Tango record. I can believe that.

2185
01:44:07,400 --> 01:44:09,800
Speaker 2: And Tsol he was a fan of those records, and

2186
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:11,640
Speaker 2: he called me up and he said, this band is

2187
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:16,240
Speaker 2: from San Diego. They're a Christian rock band, and we're

2188
01:44:16,280 --> 01:44:19,479
Speaker 2: going to break him in the real world, but we

2189
01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:22,000
Speaker 2: want to make a record that sort of straddles the line.

2190
01:44:22,640 --> 01:44:25,240
Speaker 2: And I like your record that you did with them,

2191
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:27,160
Speaker 2: And I liked this last Lesson Jake record you did

2192
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:29,519
Speaker 2: Hello Rockview, which actually became their biggest selling record.

2193
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:31,760
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, just a little bit slower. How'd you

2194
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:33,360
Speaker 1: get the less than Jake? Right?

2195
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 2: I did a single for the screen movie. They were

2196
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:41,519
Speaker 2: in a screen movie that Wes craven I directed and

2197
01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 2: their manager was friends with my little manager at the time,

2198
01:44:45,040 --> 01:44:47,080
Speaker 2: and they needed a producer really fast to go to

2199
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:49,719
Speaker 2: Gainsville to do a cover of I Think We're Ala.

2200
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,240
Speaker 2: I Think what's that Partcherd's Family song?

2201
01:44:53,680 --> 01:44:56,200
Speaker 1: Jesus not my area of expertise.

2202
01:44:56,120 --> 01:44:58,760
Speaker 2: But anyway, it was a Partrid's Family and we did

2203
01:44:58,760 --> 01:45:00,600
Speaker 2: a cover of it, and the band like working with me,

2204
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,080
Speaker 2: so they asked me to come back, and I came

2205
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:06,840
Speaker 2: back to Gainesville with pro tools in hand all the

2206
01:45:06,840 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 2: way to Gainesville and we started making the record and

2207
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:11,920
Speaker 2: it came out really well, you know, but then it

2208
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 2: wasn't selling that much though, because it was still a

2209
01:45:13,840 --> 01:45:17,040
Speaker 2: ska band. It had a limited audience. Wasn't putting food

2210
01:45:17,080 --> 01:45:20,240
Speaker 2: on the table. Let's put it that way, right And anyhow,

2211
01:45:20,320 --> 01:45:22,720
Speaker 2: so this all comes together and John Rubi Lee, the

2212
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:26,120
Speaker 2: A and R person for Pod and I said, listen,

2213
01:45:26,160 --> 01:45:29,559
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do this in the computer. And they had

2214
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:33,360
Speaker 2: already hired Ed Stasium to do the record, and it's

2215
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:35,439
Speaker 2: a great producer and everything, but he's an analog guy.

2216
01:45:35,439 --> 01:45:38,560
Speaker 2: He's in tape. Rubi Lee, in a flash of inspiration,

2217
01:45:39,280 --> 01:45:42,240
Speaker 2: calls me back and goes, listen, tell me more about

2218
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 2: this computer thing. And I said, well, I'll be honest

2219
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:49,720
Speaker 2: with you. Your band really needs this computer. I'm being

2220
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:52,519
Speaker 2: honest with you. They are going to benefit from me.

2221
01:45:53,920 --> 01:45:56,640
Speaker 2: The one thing I've realized being in a band. My

2222
01:45:56,760 --> 01:45:59,320
Speaker 2: band was the worst band in Hollywood. We had nothing

2223
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:02,280
Speaker 2: to say to the youth of America. Nothing. I was

2224
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:05,280
Speaker 2: raised a normal middle class kid. I'd have anything to say.

2225
01:46:05,960 --> 01:46:08,200
Speaker 2: That was the problem with my band. We had nothing.

2226
01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:11,240
Speaker 2: We were laughing at Motley Crew across the street, you know,

2227
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:14,639
Speaker 2: because they were dressed up and shit pod though. When

2228
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,240
Speaker 2: I saw them, I was like, these guys have everything

2229
01:46:17,280 --> 01:46:20,839
Speaker 2: I don't, which is a point of view. They have energy,

2230
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:26,000
Speaker 2: they're intense. They just need my arrangement help. And he

2231
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 2: took a leap of faith on me, and we did

2232
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 2: it on the computer in pro Tools nineteen ninety eight.

2233
01:46:31,720 --> 01:46:35,240
Speaker 2: And I remember waking up one morning looking at TRL

2234
01:46:36,120 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 2: and there's Southtown and I literally could not believe it

2235
01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:43,560
Speaker 2: because it hadn't happened before, you know, for me, like

2236
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:46,920
Speaker 2: like that, you know, And I kept doing double takes,

2237
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:49,800
Speaker 2: you know, like, wait a minute, did I produce this?

2238
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:52,240
Speaker 2: It can't be mine. I'm so used to not having

2239
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,439
Speaker 2: anything sell at that point, you know. And then it

2240
01:46:55,479 --> 01:46:57,640
Speaker 2: was like holding off for dear life. After that, like

2241
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:00,360
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I'm getting hired by everyone, buddy,

2242
01:47:00,960 --> 01:47:04,080
Speaker 2: and my career just it took off so fast that

2243
01:47:04,120 --> 01:47:06,400
Speaker 2: it was like a blur. You know. I had to

2244
01:47:06,479 --> 01:47:09,759
Speaker 2: learn how to start turning projects down, which was another

2245
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:14,280
Speaker 2: art itself, you know, you know, how to work quickly,

2246
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 2: how to keep producing hits, and you know, form a

2247
01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 2: team around me get you know, the best engineer I

2248
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:23,080
Speaker 2: could get, Mike from. Mike Platnikov was from Little Mountain

2249
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:26,280
Speaker 2: Studios in Vancouver, and I loved the sound of those records.

2250
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:28,439
Speaker 2: So I brought him down to do my engineering, and

2251
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:30,200
Speaker 2: you know, one thing led to another, and it just

2252
01:47:30,200 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 2: started like I don't know what happened, honestly, it just

2253
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 2: was so quick, you know. So but I put in

2254
01:47:36,520 --> 01:47:37,920
Speaker 2: I used to I thought to myself, you know what

2255
01:47:37,920 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 2: I put in all this time doing this, you know,

2256
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:44,559
Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, I appreciate this like a lot.

2257
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:47,200
Speaker 2: You know. I didn't take it for granted at all.

2258
01:47:47,720 --> 01:47:49,599
Speaker 2: I wasn't a kid at that point. I was still thirty,

2259
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, forty years old. I wasn't a kid, you know.

2260
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:02,880
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about the recording the Youth of the Nation.

2261
01:48:04,680 --> 01:48:08,080
Speaker 2: Well, that was probably the first time I had recorded

2262
01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,439
Speaker 2: anything that sounded exactly the way I wanted it to.

2263
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:15,760
Speaker 2: Because it was a song that I had heard in

2264
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 2: rehearsal back when we rehearsed and rehearsed in Santia for

2265
01:48:19,120 --> 01:48:23,120
Speaker 2: that second album. There was a school shooting walk into

2266
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:25,800
Speaker 2: the seven eleven. Sonny turns to me and he goes,

2267
01:48:26,840 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 2: Marcus has this lyric, we are the youth of the Nation.

2268
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:30,880
Speaker 2: I wasn't sold on the lyric because I thought it

2269
01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:33,760
Speaker 2: was too big and I thought it was preachy. But

2270
01:48:33,880 --> 01:48:36,880
Speaker 2: Sonny goes, here's the opening line. It's the last day

2271
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 2: of the rest of my life. I wish I would

2272
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:41,799
Speaker 2: have known, because I would have kissed my mama goodbye.

2273
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:45,680
Speaker 2: And I went, oh my god, that's I mean, I

2274
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:47,680
Speaker 2: could I almost get teared up thinking about it now.

2275
01:48:48,120 --> 01:48:51,280
Speaker 2: It hit me so hard, and I called my manager

2276
01:48:51,560 --> 01:48:55,240
Speaker 2: and I said, Aliyah, I can't even fuck this one up.

2277
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:58,479
Speaker 2: You know, this is going to be a great song,

2278
01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:02,800
Speaker 2: you know. And we put it together and then I

2279
01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:05,240
Speaker 2: think Marcos and I were talking about a kid's choir

2280
01:49:05,280 --> 01:49:08,479
Speaker 2: and I love bob Ezrin's production of Another Brick in

2281
01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:10,600
Speaker 2: the Wall, and I said, you know what, this is

2282
01:49:10,640 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 2: the time, this is the moment I'm going to use them.

2283
01:49:13,560 --> 01:49:16,639
Speaker 2: And I made a huge error. I brought in the

2284
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:19,680
Speaker 2: fans of the band to come sing the parts. And

2285
01:49:19,720 --> 01:49:22,200
Speaker 2: the lawyer calls me on the phone right when I'm

2286
01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 2: about to hit record, and he goes, you.

2287
01:49:23,960 --> 01:49:26,639
Speaker 3: Can't record them. They're not lee. You better get them

2288
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:28,960
Speaker 3: out of here as fast as possible. I said, why,

2289
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:30,360
Speaker 3: they're just going to see the chorus. He goes, We're

2290
01:49:30,360 --> 01:49:33,400
Speaker 3: going it be sued so many ways. So I saw,

2291
01:49:33,439 --> 01:49:35,200
Speaker 3: I said, do you have any posters in the trunk

2292
01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:37,400
Speaker 3: of your cars? Just get the band, get the kids

2293
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:40,000
Speaker 3: out to the parking lot. So I hired a Disney

2294
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:43,600
Speaker 3: vocal arranger and got Disney Kids to come in legitimately

2295
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:48,400
Speaker 3: with the contracts, you know what I mean, real kids schore.

2296
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:50,640
Speaker 3: That was I dodged the bullet right there a little bit,

2297
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:53,400
Speaker 3: but it was my naive diativity at that point, you know.

2298
01:49:53,520 --> 01:49:56,840
Speaker 3: So anyway, and the song came together and I just

2299
01:49:57,040 --> 01:49:59,879
Speaker 3: I remember when I was done the song, I thought, finally,

2300
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:01,840
Speaker 3: this is the way I want it. This is kind

2301
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:04,679
Speaker 3: of what I this is the feeling I want from

2302
01:50:04,680 --> 01:50:08,200
Speaker 3: this song, this big song with this big message, telling

2303
01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:13,120
Speaker 3: this intimate story verse by verse about a person you know,

2304
01:50:13,120 --> 01:50:16,000
Speaker 3: about little Susie and about you know, my you know,

2305
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:18,439
Speaker 3: being taken two to the chest and just you know,

2306
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:21,120
Speaker 3: all this kind of stuff. It's it's a very intimate

2307
01:50:21,160 --> 01:50:24,720
Speaker 3: story with a massive message, and it just kept, I

2308
01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:26,200
Speaker 3: don't know, it just got where it got.

2309
01:50:26,280 --> 01:50:26,439
Speaker 1: Then.

2310
01:50:26,439 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 2: I felt the same way about a song called move

2311
01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:30,680
Speaker 2: Along I did for the All American Rejects. It had

2312
01:50:30,720 --> 01:50:33,760
Speaker 2: the same idea to it, intimate story about trying to

2313
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:35,400
Speaker 2: get through the day. And I brought the kids choir

2314
01:50:35,439 --> 01:50:38,000
Speaker 2: into that one too, you know, because I wanted to

2315
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:40,519
Speaker 2: do the you know when you sing the chorus and

2316
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:43,759
Speaker 2: the breakdown, same thing as you so, But I created

2317
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:46,479
Speaker 2: Bob a lot because Bob, I think is brilliant and

2318
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:48,720
Speaker 2: he did such a great job on those records. But

2319
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:51,800
Speaker 2: you got to pay homage and respects, and the only

2320
01:50:51,840 --> 01:50:53,720
Speaker 2: way to really do that is through your work, you know.

2321
01:50:54,360 --> 01:50:58,479
Speaker 1: So, Okay, did you know the Reason was going to

2322
01:50:58,520 --> 01:50:59,599
Speaker 1: be as big as it was?

2323
01:51:00,360 --> 01:51:00,439
Speaker 3: No?

2324
01:51:02,080 --> 01:51:05,560
Speaker 2: It's second engineer in the studio. We were working on

2325
01:51:05,600 --> 01:51:08,120
Speaker 2: all these songs, and the second engineer, he's just some kid,

2326
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:11,080
Speaker 2: and he goes, that song's going to be huge, And

2327
01:51:11,120 --> 01:51:13,599
Speaker 2: I said, what are you talking about? This love song?

2328
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 2: You know?

2329
01:51:14,040 --> 01:51:14,439
Speaker 1: Whatever?

2330
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:16,280
Speaker 2: You know, like you know, you're in a in the

2331
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:18,599
Speaker 2: middle of it. At that point, and he goes, I'm

2332
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:20,760
Speaker 2: telling you, my my girlfriend's going to love that song.

2333
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:24,360
Speaker 2: And then of course Lee or Cohen, who's running the

2334
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:26,240
Speaker 2: label at the time, calls up and he goes, I

2335
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:28,320
Speaker 2: think that song's going to be huge. And then somebody

2336
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:31,720
Speaker 2: said it needs a bridge, and I went, you're right,

2337
01:51:31,760 --> 01:51:35,240
Speaker 2: it does need a bridge. And I thought again, I

2338
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:37,680
Speaker 2: went back to the Beatles, and I said, how am

2339
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:39,280
Speaker 2: I going to come up with a bridge? And so

2340
01:51:39,560 --> 01:51:42,120
Speaker 2: I took the little help from my friend's idea where

2341
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:47,439
Speaker 2: it goes to when he goes, you know, I get

2342
01:51:47,439 --> 01:51:48,840
Speaker 2: by with the little help of my friends. It's the

2343
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:52,040
Speaker 2: first time you hear the D chord, so it goes

2344
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:54,720
Speaker 2: e ed a. You don't hear it the rest of

2345
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:56,360
Speaker 2: the song. It's only in those spots. So in the

2346
01:51:56,360 --> 01:51:59,479
Speaker 2: bridge of the reason I put the dcord, I put

2347
01:51:59,479 --> 01:52:02,439
Speaker 2: the one that doesn't appear anywhere else in the song there.

2348
01:52:03,360 --> 01:52:06,000
Speaker 2: And you know, the reason is you is a D chord?

2349
01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:09,360
Speaker 2: Reason is you? Is it D chord? So there again

2350
01:52:09,680 --> 01:52:12,200
Speaker 2: you have to refer back to the stuff that's great,

2351
01:52:12,680 --> 01:52:15,400
Speaker 2: you know, And that's kind of how that worked out

2352
01:52:15,479 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 2: that one. And then the little piano intro part I

2353
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:20,639
Speaker 2: put on. There was a reference to one note Samba

2354
01:52:21,479 --> 01:52:25,639
Speaker 2: by Sergio Mendez. It starts off the ding ding ding

2355
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 2: ding like that, and that was kind of a paying

2356
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:30,960
Speaker 2: respects to that and Count Basie who always said you

2357
01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:35,960
Speaker 2: can get away with one note. So you know, that's

2358
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 2: just what was going through my head.

2359
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:40,479
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. You went to music school in

2360
01:52:40,520 --> 01:52:42,719
Speaker 1: the middle of your tenure at Drexel.

2361
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's funny. I got my honorary doctorate from

2362
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:50,240
Speaker 2: Drexel in twenty fifteen, and I told a funny story

2363
01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:52,799
Speaker 2: during the speech because my grade point average was terrible

2364
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:57,800
Speaker 2: and I dropped that at Drexel. I went to PCPA

2365
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:00,960
Speaker 2: and I had to reapply to Drexel, so I had

2366
01:53:00,960 --> 01:53:04,320
Speaker 2: to go to Dean Woodring and sit sheepishly in front

2367
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:07,840
Speaker 2: of him and say, listen, my parents are really mad

2368
01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:11,040
Speaker 2: that I'm not finishing his degree, so can I reapply?

2369
01:53:11,880 --> 01:53:14,240
Speaker 2: And he let me back in right, And I did

2370
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:15,880
Speaker 2: pretty well the rest of the time there because I

2371
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:19,360
Speaker 2: focused on it. When I got my honorary doctor and

2372
01:53:19,439 --> 01:53:21,080
Speaker 2: he was there and I went up to him and

2373
01:53:21,080 --> 01:53:23,800
Speaker 2: I said, Dean, I really appreciate you letting me back in.

2374
01:53:23,920 --> 01:53:25,880
Speaker 2: I don't have no idea why you did, and they

2375
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:27,559
Speaker 2: must not have looked at my great point average when

2376
01:53:27,600 --> 01:53:30,200
Speaker 2: they gave me this and he goes, you know why

2377
01:53:30,200 --> 01:53:31,800
Speaker 2: I let you back in? I said, why he goes

2378
01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:34,679
Speaker 2: because anybody who comes back who wants to be back

2379
01:53:34,720 --> 01:53:37,320
Speaker 2: in is usually a pretty good student after that, because

2380
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:40,479
Speaker 2: you're not They're coming in of their own volition. And

2381
01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:43,680
Speaker 2: I was like, wow, okay, so it was kind of

2382
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 2: easy decision then, you know, like I was actually really

2383
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:49,400
Speaker 2: thanked him up and down for that one, you know,

2384
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:51,240
Speaker 2: because he didn't have to. I mean, I was not

2385
01:53:51,960 --> 01:53:54,720
Speaker 2: thinking about engineering back then. It was all music to

2386
01:53:54,800 --> 01:53:55,840
Speaker 2: me at that point. You know.

2387
01:53:56,439 --> 01:54:00,519
Speaker 1: Okay, but did you drop out to play music? Did

2388
01:54:00,560 --> 01:54:02,879
Speaker 1: you drop out to go to music school?

2389
01:54:03,000 --> 01:54:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? I dropped out to go to music school. I'd

2390
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:07,040
Speaker 2: play music, yeah.

2391
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:08,600
Speaker 1: And so what did you think you were going to

2392
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:10,880
Speaker 1: learn at music school? And what did you learn?

2393
01:54:11,479 --> 01:54:13,200
Speaker 2: You know what? I didn't really know at the time,

2394
01:54:13,680 --> 01:54:15,679
Speaker 2: but I knew one thing that I was good at.

2395
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:18,840
Speaker 2: Two things. I was really really good at soul fesh,

2396
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:22,680
Speaker 2: which I means I could hear intervals easily, Like I

2397
01:54:22,680 --> 01:54:24,439
Speaker 2: could sit down as somebody plays a C and they

2398
01:54:24,439 --> 01:54:26,960
Speaker 2: play an F I know, it's a fourth. If somebody

2399
01:54:26,960 --> 01:54:28,720
Speaker 2: plays an A and plays an E, I know it's

2400
01:54:28,720 --> 01:54:31,360
Speaker 2: a fifth. I had a really good ear, but I

2401
01:54:31,400 --> 01:54:34,640
Speaker 2: couldn't put together harmonies. And a lot of this stuff

2402
01:54:34,680 --> 01:54:37,080
Speaker 2: in the bands was disco band I was in. They

2403
01:54:37,080 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 2: were asking for harmony arrangements and I was trying to

2404
01:54:39,000 --> 01:54:41,320
Speaker 2: I was guessing a little bit. But when I went

2405
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:44,160
Speaker 2: in there there was a course in three part harmony arrangement.

2406
01:54:44,160 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 2: It's called Hindamoth. It's a book called Hindemith, and it's

2407
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 2: so basic, so basic, but it's basically called arranging for

2408
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:54,640
Speaker 2: a four piece. That's it. That's the whole thing. All

2409
01:54:54,680 --> 01:54:58,360
Speaker 2: the stuff I learned in there still applies. All of it.

2410
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,879
Speaker 2: Arranging for harmony, it's arranging for a small because basically

2411
01:55:01,920 --> 01:55:04,160
Speaker 2: these bands are they're really four piece bands. You know,

2412
01:55:04,240 --> 01:55:07,560
Speaker 2: bass drums, guitars, you know, vocals, that's it. The rest

2413
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:10,880
Speaker 2: of it's sweetening, you know. So that was a big

2414
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 2: I'm so glad I went there. I a still learned

2415
01:55:12,640 --> 01:55:14,760
Speaker 2: a lot about music history, which I don't apply or

2416
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:18,840
Speaker 2: anything like that, but you know, didn't do very well

2417
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 2: at site reading, that's for sure, you know. And I

2418
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:23,839
Speaker 2: audited it to classes.

2419
01:55:24,440 --> 01:55:26,720
Speaker 1: You audited it right, so.

2420
01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:30,840
Speaker 2: Which means that the only ones I got transferred across

2421
01:55:31,040 --> 01:55:34,160
Speaker 2: were the ones that apply this humanities classes to Drexel.

2422
01:55:34,600 --> 01:55:37,240
Speaker 2: So I was able to apply my ear training course,

2423
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:41,600
Speaker 2: my history course to my humanity's credits a Drexel. So

2424
01:55:41,600 --> 01:55:43,560
Speaker 2: it wasn't a total loss, you know what I mean.

2425
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:44,800
Speaker 2: It wasn't like I dropped, you.

2426
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:47,160
Speaker 1: Know, Okay, just a couple of things. It muses school.

2427
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:49,800
Speaker 1: Why were you auditing as opposed to taking the courses

2428
01:55:49,840 --> 01:55:50,240
Speaker 1: for real?

2429
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,600
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't take I couldn't play keyboards, That's the one.

2430
01:55:53,720 --> 01:55:56,400
Speaker 2: That's the one course I audited. It was the you know,

2431
01:55:57,000 --> 01:55:59,960
Speaker 2: sitting and playing site reading. I just the kids who

2432
01:56:00,160 --> 01:56:03,000
Speaker 2: to MUSA school were so far advanced than I was.

2433
01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:04,280
Speaker 2: They were kids playing.

2434
01:56:04,360 --> 01:56:06,520
Speaker 1: But that was the only that was the only class

2435
01:56:06,560 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 1: you took. It you as the only one. YEAHA was

2436
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:13,280
Speaker 1: it a one year course? I just went for one

2437
01:56:13,320 --> 01:56:16,280
Speaker 1: year and then what was it? I went back to Drexel?

2438
01:56:16,280 --> 01:56:18,800
Speaker 1: You know, I mean what went through in your head that, hey,

2439
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:19,760
Speaker 1: I'm going back.

2440
01:56:20,600 --> 01:56:23,480
Speaker 2: I felt like I learned enough. I just wanted to

2441
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:26,800
Speaker 2: learn how to arrange and I knew that course existed,

2442
01:56:26,880 --> 01:56:29,800
Speaker 2: Doctor Chris Wiki. He ended up becoming the provost there.

2443
01:56:30,960 --> 01:56:32,760
Speaker 2: He taught the course and I had heard about this

2444
01:56:32,840 --> 01:56:35,960
Speaker 2: guy through somebody and he said, yeah, he's really good

2445
01:56:36,000 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 2: at arranging for small ensembles, and some reason in my mind,

2446
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 2: I just wanted to do it, you know what I mean.

2447
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:44,280
Speaker 2: It was probably very reckless, honestly to drop out of

2448
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 2: three years of Drexel, you know, to do this. I

2449
01:56:48,360 --> 01:56:49,560
Speaker 2: didn't even know if they were going to let me

2450
01:56:49,640 --> 01:56:52,120
Speaker 2: back in or not. But that's where my life was

2451
01:56:52,160 --> 01:56:55,200
Speaker 2: going at the time. It was a bit little reckless,

2452
01:56:55,480 --> 01:56:57,280
Speaker 2: you know. But at the end, I realized, you know what,

2453
01:56:57,320 --> 01:56:59,320
Speaker 2: it's nothing else I can learn in this school because

2454
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:02,160
Speaker 2: I'm not going to play concert piano. It's not where

2455
01:57:02,160 --> 01:57:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm heading, you know. So but what I could do

2456
01:57:05,640 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 2: that the other kids couldn't do. I could sit down

2457
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,840
Speaker 2: and improvise. They couldn't do any of that. These kids.

2458
01:57:10,880 --> 01:57:14,760
Speaker 2: It was funny. They could sit and play box Italian concerto,

2459
01:57:15,600 --> 01:57:18,600
Speaker 2: say reading it, you know, but if I said play

2460
01:57:18,640 --> 01:57:20,440
Speaker 2: a minor D and the amprovised, they didn't even know

2461
01:57:20,480 --> 01:57:22,800
Speaker 2: what I was talking about, do you know. So it

2462
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:26,800
Speaker 2: was weird how the two sides didn't you know what

2463
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 2: I mean of music? They were surely different to disciplines

2464
01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:32,240
Speaker 2: almost you know, Just to.

2465
01:57:32,160 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 1: Be clear, did you drop out to go to music

2466
01:57:35,760 --> 01:57:39,320
Speaker 1: school or did you drop out and then go to

2467
01:57:39,400 --> 01:57:40,120
Speaker 1: music school.

2468
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 2: I dropped out to go to music school. I applied

2469
01:57:42,240 --> 01:57:43,160
Speaker 2: to music school first.

2470
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:45,840
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah. And at the time, you had no

2471
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:49,440
Speaker 1: intention of going back to Drexel, no at all. So

2472
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:52,680
Speaker 1: why did you go back to Drexel Other than parental pressure?

2473
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:56,640
Speaker 2: I went back because I think I got you know,

2474
01:57:56,720 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 2: I started feeling kind of a little bit stupid about it.

2475
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:00,600
Speaker 2: I was like, you know what I did three years

2476
01:58:00,600 --> 01:58:04,480
Speaker 2: at this Drexel. I'm going to get my degree at

2477
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:07,840
Speaker 2: some point. Why am I like? I got Okay, I

2478
01:58:07,920 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 2: learned soulfege, I learned about arranging. I'm never going to

2479
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:14,760
Speaker 2: be a concert pianist, you know. Let me finish the degree.

2480
01:58:14,840 --> 01:58:16,800
Speaker 2: I'll get a job. I'll go to LA And that

2481
01:58:16,880 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 2: all worked out pretty well. Got my job, had my degree,

2482
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 2: so I could get a job in LA and I'll

2483
01:58:23,040 --> 01:58:24,920
Speaker 2: live in LA and try the music business. But at

2484
01:58:24,960 --> 01:58:27,080
Speaker 2: least i'll have a job. If I didn't get my degree,

2485
01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:28,840
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have a job. I wouldn't know how I

2486
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:31,200
Speaker 2: was going to support myself, so I had to have

2487
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:31,640
Speaker 2: the job.

2488
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:38,680
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you literally scratched your way to where

2489
01:58:38,720 --> 01:58:44,040
Speaker 1: you are now, very admirably. You have all the success,

2490
01:58:44,240 --> 01:58:48,200
Speaker 1: you're busy, You've achieved so much. But is there something

2491
01:58:48,240 --> 01:58:51,040
Speaker 1: on the horizon? Is there still a dream? Walp you

2492
01:58:51,080 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 1: say I want to do that.

2493
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:58,480
Speaker 2: No, I just want the label to be self sufficient,

2494
01:58:59,200 --> 01:59:02,640
Speaker 2: That's really it. I think if I could produce the Beatles,

2495
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:04,560
Speaker 2: I would, but well.

2496
01:59:04,480 --> 01:59:07,480
Speaker 1: Needless to say, the Beatles you can't produce because two

2497
01:59:07,480 --> 01:59:09,600
Speaker 1: of them are not here. But is one of the

2498
01:59:10,080 --> 01:59:14,840
Speaker 1: one of the dreams to work with some hero, some.

2499
01:59:15,240 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 2: Icon, you know. I worked with two of my favorite

2500
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 2: heroes already, one with Santana. I produced a Santana record

2501
01:59:22,200 --> 01:59:24,400
Speaker 2: and I worked with Ray man Zeric on that record.

2502
01:59:25,120 --> 01:59:27,240
Speaker 2: So I got to work with people that I idolized,

2503
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:29,680
Speaker 2: and I got to know Ray pretty well. I would

2504
01:59:29,720 --> 01:59:31,400
Speaker 2: say the one person I wish I had worked with

2505
01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:34,280
Speaker 2: was with Keith Emerson. I never got to really work

2506
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:37,320
Speaker 2: with him. I was a huge prog rock fan growing up,

2507
01:59:37,880 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 2: and that didn't work, you know, it just didn't work out.

2508
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:45,360
Speaker 2: I tried contacting them. I don't know. I'm sort of

2509
01:59:45,560 --> 01:59:48,640
Speaker 2: happy where I'm at right now. You know, my kids

2510
01:59:48,640 --> 01:59:50,920
Speaker 2: in the music business, which is good. I like that.

2511
01:59:51,840 --> 01:59:55,160
Speaker 2: My wife sort of is retired and she sold her

2512
01:59:55,200 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 2: publishing company, did really well with that, and we travel

2513
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:00,360
Speaker 2: a lot. That's one thing I really liked doing as

2514
02:00:00,400 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 2: traveling because I like seeing the rest of the world.

2515
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,040
Speaker 2: There's so much more to see than just living here,

2516
02:00:05,200 --> 02:00:07,800
Speaker 2: you know. I went to Vietnam earlier this year. I

2517
02:00:07,840 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 2: went to Cambodi at Laos and I think that you're

2518
02:00:11,920 --> 02:00:16,880
Speaker 2: not serving yourself, is my opinion, as a human when

2519
02:00:16,920 --> 02:00:19,160
Speaker 2: you don't see everything. You know, like you're only going

2520
02:00:19,240 --> 02:00:20,800
Speaker 2: to be on this earth a certain amount of time.

2521
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:23,720
Speaker 2: And when I went to Vietnam, it was such an

2522
02:00:23,720 --> 02:00:26,760
Speaker 2: eye opening experience and all these different places. We're going

2523
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:29,440
Speaker 2: to Australia in a few weeks. I just want to

2524
02:00:29,440 --> 02:00:31,920
Speaker 2: see it all. That's what I want to do, you know.

2525
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:34,320
Speaker 2: So I'm lucky to be in that position where I

2526
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:35,280
Speaker 2: can do things like that.

2527
02:00:35,840 --> 02:00:37,520
Speaker 1: How much of the year are you traveling?

2528
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 2: I would say probably a quarter of the year.

2529
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:44,520
Speaker 1: Oh really a lot, a lot?

2530
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,879
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, these is three week trips. Some of them, yeah,

2531
02:00:47,960 --> 02:00:50,680
Speaker 2: they're big trips. Some of them are just plan trips,

2532
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:52,600
Speaker 2: like TALC tours, you know that you go on a

2533
02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:54,640
Speaker 2: trip with a bunch of people, and some of them

2534
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 2: are trips we do ourselves. I'm going in June to

2535
02:00:57,880 --> 02:01:00,680
Speaker 2: play I just learned how to play golf for some

2536
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:03,320
Speaker 2: stupid reason. But I'm going to play golf with a

2537
02:01:03,320 --> 02:01:05,840
Speaker 2: friend of mine in Scotland later on this year, and

2538
02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:07,800
Speaker 2: then we might go to Morocco later in the year.

2539
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:11,400
Speaker 2: I never thought about going to Morocco, but somebody said, hey,

2540
02:01:11,400 --> 02:01:13,160
Speaker 2: you should check it out. It's a new you know,

2541
02:01:13,200 --> 02:01:16,240
Speaker 2: it's sort of an interesting place. I'm a big World

2542
02:01:16,240 --> 02:01:19,400
Speaker 2: War Two. It's aanatic wheal. I love reading about that stuff,

2543
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,080
Speaker 2: and they have I love to see sort of where

2544
02:01:21,680 --> 02:01:23,800
Speaker 2: you know, the battles were fought, the Kerosene Pass and

2545
02:01:23,840 --> 02:01:24,440
Speaker 2: all that stuff.

2546
02:01:24,480 --> 02:01:24,680
Speaker 1: You know.

2547
02:01:25,120 --> 02:01:28,400
Speaker 2: So you know, I love going to Normandy. That was

2548
02:01:28,440 --> 02:01:30,280
Speaker 2: a great trip to see the bat you know, the

2549
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:36,080
Speaker 2: beaches and all. And went to you know, travel to Iceland.

2550
02:01:36,320 --> 02:01:39,080
Speaker 2: Great trip. Something that's like, you know, you don't see

2551
02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:42,360
Speaker 2: things like that that brings color into my life, you know,

2552
02:01:42,840 --> 02:01:46,360
Speaker 2: like it makes it more. It makes me appreciate living

2553
02:01:46,400 --> 02:01:47,080
Speaker 2: here more.

2554
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:51,000
Speaker 1: Actually, you know, so we're we're a couple of places

2555
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 1: on your horizon. So called bucket list.

2556
02:01:54,360 --> 02:01:56,840
Speaker 2: You want to go to, Well, we're talking about going

2557
02:01:56,880 --> 02:01:59,840
Speaker 2: to India and that would have to be with a

2558
02:02:00,080 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 2: land trip, I think, because you need to have a

2559
02:02:01,720 --> 02:02:04,680
Speaker 2: guide for that one. Yeah, I like to try that,

2560
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:06,760
Speaker 2: you know, not too long, Like some of the trips

2561
02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:09,360
Speaker 2: are too long for me, Like I don't like twenty days?

2562
02:02:09,400 --> 02:02:11,240
Speaker 2: Is it for me? Be it away from home?

2563
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:12,000
Speaker 1: You know?

2564
02:02:12,560 --> 02:02:16,920
Speaker 2: So I'd like to try that, I think. I don't know.

2565
02:02:17,360 --> 02:02:19,360
Speaker 2: Australia was one of them. In New Zealand that's going

2566
02:02:19,400 --> 02:02:23,880
Speaker 2: to be checked off. But you know, we thought about Antarctica,

2567
02:02:23,920 --> 02:02:28,360
Speaker 2: but that's a whole other thing. Like sometimes you can't

2568
02:02:28,360 --> 02:02:30,760
Speaker 2: get there if the weather's bad, you've wasted the whole trip.

2569
02:02:30,960 --> 02:02:32,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I want to risk that. I don't know.

2570
02:02:33,120 --> 02:02:35,240
Speaker 2: I'm not no desire by the way to do a safari.

2571
02:02:35,440 --> 02:02:38,320
Speaker 2: So that's the bottom of the list. Okay, everybody says

2572
02:02:38,320 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 2: to do it.

2573
02:02:38,800 --> 02:02:41,960
Speaker 1: But you're on one of these trips it's twenty days long.

2574
02:02:42,120 --> 02:02:43,360
Speaker 1: Are you disconnected?

2575
02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:44,080
Speaker 2: No?

2576
02:02:44,640 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 1: Are you basically working while you're on the trip?

2577
02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 2: I can't get away from the work. Yeah, I don't

2578
02:02:51,040 --> 02:02:53,160
Speaker 2: mind either because it breaks it up for me, do

2579
02:02:53,200 --> 02:02:55,120
Speaker 2: you know, Like I like sometimes it's in the middle

2580
02:02:55,120 --> 02:02:57,000
Speaker 2: of the night. My time usually at there are time

2581
02:02:57,400 --> 02:02:58,920
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like at the time is off,

2582
02:02:59,160 --> 02:03:01,840
Speaker 2: it's like eight o'clock. Night is usually like mid noon

2583
02:03:01,880 --> 02:03:04,760
Speaker 2: in LA or something. So you know, I'll set up

2584
02:03:04,760 --> 02:03:06,640
Speaker 2: a meeting or something like that, and you know, put

2585
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 2: my two cents and I can't do music from there.

2586
02:03:08,880 --> 02:03:11,120
Speaker 2: It's mostly the record label stuff I can do from there,

2587
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:13,920
Speaker 2: so yeah, I don't try it. I'll listen to mixes,

2588
02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:17,200
Speaker 2: you know, okay mixes and things like that.

2589
02:03:17,840 --> 02:03:22,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, Okay, Howard, it's been great talking to you.

2590
02:03:22,840 --> 02:03:26,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing your story and your insights with my audience.

2591
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:30,120
Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you for having me. Absolutely, I'm a

2592
02:03:30,120 --> 02:03:33,120
Speaker 2: big fan. You know. We listen to you all the time.

2593
02:03:33,120 --> 02:03:35,240
Speaker 1: By the way, well, as I say, it's good to

2594
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,840
Speaker 1: hear you know, your philosophies and to get into some

2595
02:03:38,920 --> 02:03:42,920
Speaker 1: of this nitty gritty, I mean cutting vocals. You really

2596
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:45,320
Speaker 1: you made some good points, but there's still more points

2597
02:03:45,360 --> 02:03:47,880
Speaker 1: to make. You say, you work with Kelly Clarkson and

2598
02:03:47,920 --> 02:03:52,600
Speaker 1: some other people. But we're gonna leave it here for today, Okay,

2599
02:03:53,520 --> 02:03:56,560
Speaker 1: till next time. This is Bob left Stacks

2600
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:18,400
Speaker 3: Sh