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Speaker 1: This is a production of Journalista Podcast LLC and iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: They are the moral equal of our founding fathers and

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Speaker 2: the brave men and women of the French Resistance.

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Speaker 3: We cannot turn.

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Speaker 2: Away from them for the struggle here.

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Speaker 4: Smuggle.

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Speaker 2: Here is not right versus left, It is right versus wrong.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Journalista Podcast. That was President Reagan

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Speaker 1: comparing the Nicaraguan contrast to our founding fathers. I think

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Speaker 1: George Washington just turned over in his grave. This episode

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Speaker 1: is about terror as it pertains to Central America in

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Speaker 1: the eighties. Who did it, where it came from, who

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Speaker 1: funded it, and who bore the brunt of the evil

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Speaker 1: that was unleashed, told primarily through the eyes of two journalists.

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Speaker 1: You already know Cookie, but you're about to meet one

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Speaker 1: of the rising stars of CBS News. Boy does she

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Speaker 1: have a story to tell. But first, Cookie makes an

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Speaker 1: insidious discovery.

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Speaker 5: You worked with Larry Doyle and you worked with Richard Wagner.

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Speaker 6: You were the krem de la creb.

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Speaker 5: They were both highly respected in their field. They had

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Speaker 5: seen it all everywhere in the world. And by the way,

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Speaker 5: rest in peace Richard Wagner. He was a wonderful, wonderful

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Speaker 5: correspondent to work with. So I think we're on a junket.

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Speaker 5: We're heading to the jungles for something, some story, or

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Speaker 5: we're just looking for a story. We had several vehicles

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Speaker 5: in our convoy and then all of a sudden, in

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Speaker 5: between two of the vehicles, a mortar blows up. Exit

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Speaker 5: the vehicles, get in the dirt and start crawling. We're

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Speaker 5: whispering to each other because we don't know where the

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Speaker 5: enemy is, who was responsible for the mortar attack, And

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Speaker 5: all of a sudden I hear on the side of

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Speaker 5: me some soldier whispering.

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Speaker 6: Cookie, Cookie, is that you?

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Speaker 5: And Richard Wagner and Larry Doyle both turn around in

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Speaker 5: the dirt look at me, and Richard Wagner says, I

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Speaker 5: cannot believe that someone knows you right here where we are.

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Speaker 5: This soldier helped guide us to safety. We eventually got

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Speaker 5: back to our vehicles to continue.

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Speaker 6: On our junket.

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Speaker 5: We took him back with us, so we sort of

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Speaker 5: saved him from whatever was going on in that mortar

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Speaker 5: attack because a few more mortars went off, but we

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Speaker 5: got out safely. And if I'm not mistaken, I think

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Speaker 5: it was this guy. He was a Sandinista soldier, not

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Speaker 5: very educated, probably a grunt doing grunt work.

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Speaker 6: Had come across a book.

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Speaker 5: It was in English, and he really didn't know what

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Speaker 5: it meant. He says, I have something. I don't know

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Speaker 5: if it means anything, but I'd like to give it

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Speaker 5: to you.

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Speaker 6: Can you tell me what it means?

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Speaker 5: And so I'm reading it, and I'm like on the

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Speaker 5: inside freaking out.

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Speaker 6: I'm acting like it's no big deal.

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Speaker 5: I turned to Richard Wagner and I said to him,

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Speaker 5: can you look at this and confirm what I think

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Speaker 5: it is? So Richard's reading it and I could see

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Speaker 5: He's getting the same visceral reaction that I did. And

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Speaker 5: he says, this is a goddamn CIA torture manual.

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Speaker 1: The manual was compiled in nineteen eighty three by a

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Speaker 1: CIA advisor to the Contra rebels, instructing them and the

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Speaker 1: techniques of political assassination, guerrilla warfare, and torture. According to

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post, US Army intelligence manuals were used to

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Speaker 1: train Latin American military officers advocating the use of executions, torture, blackmail,

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Speaker 1: and other forms of coercion. The same brutal techniques used

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Speaker 1: successfully by Honduran and Salvadoran desk squads.

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Speaker 5: What it was, basically was a manual that the CIA

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Speaker 5: had put out, obviously, you know, hush hush, teaching them

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Speaker 5: how to torture Sandinistas so they could stop them from

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Speaker 5: going over to the Sandinista side and get them to

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Speaker 5: come over to the contryside.

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Speaker 6: It was horrific.

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Speaker 5: It was a how to peeling off faces, peeling off

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Speaker 5: the soles of feet, beheading, putting the head on a stake.

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Speaker 6: It was a torture manual.

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Speaker 1: What's the purpose of that?

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Speaker 5: To create terror among the civilians and even probably to

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Speaker 5: some of the soldiers to come to our side, come

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Speaker 5: to our way of taking This is.

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Speaker 1: What President Reagan had to say about the CIA manual.

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Speaker 3: Mister Reagan said the dispute over a manual on guerrilla

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Speaker 3: warfare prepared for Nicaraguan rebels by the Central Intelligence Agency

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Speaker 3: was quote much ado about nothing. I have had some

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Speaker 3: information on it and have been assured that there's not

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Speaker 3: one word in there that refers to assassination.

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Speaker 1: By the way, anyone who's listening to this, you can

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Speaker 1: actually access it online. Really, yes, it's available online. I'm

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Speaker 1: just telling them right now.

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Speaker 6: Can I say I did not know that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So America was teaching torture and terror not totally surprising.

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Speaker 1: We had similar revelations revealed during the insanity following the

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Speaker 1: attack on nine to eleven in Iraq and Afghanistan. Cookie

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Speaker 1: introduces us to the amazing Jane Wallace, former CBS news

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Speaker 1: correspondent who finds another piece of the puzzle quite by accident.

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Speaker 5: Jane Wallace was an extraord is an extraordinary person. She

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Speaker 5: was on air talent, whether it be morning news, evening news,

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Speaker 5: weekend news, West fifty seventh, she did it all. She

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Speaker 5: was CBS's golden girl. She was someone you could rely

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Speaker 5: on in battle, in the hard times. You knew she

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Speaker 5: had your back. She was funny, she was brilliant. She

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Speaker 5: was a grunt, which she needed to be a grunt.

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Speaker 5: She got down and dirty when she needed to get

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Speaker 5: down and dirty. She was never a prima donna. The

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Speaker 5: crews loved her, the suits loved her. She was one

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Speaker 5: of us.

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Speaker 1: Jane wanted to go to Old Salvador, but the CBS

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Speaker 1: patriarchy had other ideas.

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Speaker 4: I had to fight to get sent to Central America

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Speaker 4: by CBS because I was a girl. I was supposed

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Speaker 4: to go to Salvador and then at the last minute

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Speaker 4: somebody says, oh, no, you're going to Honduras treat me.

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Speaker 4: But El Salvador was because I couldn't imagine. I just

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Speaker 4: could not imagine any place where they would actually murder

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Speaker 4: and rape nuns.

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Speaker 3: It is reported today from L Salvador that four Americans

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Speaker 3: have been killed there. This was the first time that

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Speaker 3: Americans seem to have been singled out by a desk squad.

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Speaker 7: They were shot execution style bullets to the back of

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Speaker 7: the head.

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Speaker 4: Later, their bodies were found in a shallow grave.

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Speaker 1: The New York Times said this about the crime.

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Speaker 3: The churchwomen were arrested after two of them went to

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Speaker 3: Como Lapa International Airport to meet the other two who

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Speaker 3: were arriving on a flight from Nicaragua. After members of

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Speaker 3: the security corps took the women to a remote location,

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Speaker 3: they were given the order quote unquote to liquidate them,

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Speaker 3: to kill them. Robert White, who was the American ambassador

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Speaker 3: to L Salvador at the time of the killing, said,

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Speaker 3: when the act was done, I knew immediately it was

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Speaker 3: the military.

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Speaker 1: That would be the same military funded and supplied by

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Speaker 1: the United States of America.

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Speaker 4: Remember being stunned in my early twenties, I covered it

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Speaker 4: as part of a local news story in New York.

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Speaker 4: I just honestly couldn't imagine the kind of evil that

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Speaker 4: would murder and rape nuns and then toss them by

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Speaker 4: the side of a road. But that was Salvador. I

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Speaker 4: didn't come into Honduras with any preconceptions except I'd rather

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Speaker 4: be in El Salvador. And then it turned out any

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Speaker 4: information that was really to be had about Nicaragua or

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Speaker 4: information about what was going on in Central America usually

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Speaker 4: originated in Honduras, which I found out by accident by

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Speaker 4: having been stuck there, because they thought they'd put the

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Speaker 4: girl where nothing was going on. There is no war there,

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Speaker 4: allegedly there. It's just a country. You get there and

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Speaker 4: it's like, well, for a country with no war, there's

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Speaker 4: sure a lot of people who look like professional warriors

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Speaker 4: or something. I mean, it was supposed to be a

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Speaker 4: civilian country, and they sent me to Honduras because they

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Speaker 4: assumed nothing was happening there. Okay, we'll let her go,

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Speaker 4: we'll shut her up, and we're sending her to the

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Speaker 4: backwater of history. So I end up in Honduras. You

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Speaker 4: could smell it in retrospect. You could just smell it

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Speaker 4: the minu you got on the ground in this country.

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Speaker 4: What was going on in front of your eyes and

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Speaker 4: what was supposed to be happening did not match. And

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Speaker 4: so I get off a plane. I've never done anything

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Speaker 4: like this. I just bugged them to go. But no,

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Speaker 4: it is a very sleepy I mean, Honduras is the

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Speaker 4: original Banana Republic. The banana companies ran the country. It

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Speaker 4: was a piece of real estate basically claimed by various

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Speaker 4: people over the years, but a soulless backwater and I

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Speaker 4: land and Jesus, there's just way too many beefy Americans

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Speaker 4: in type T shirts who are a foot taller than

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Speaker 4: the locals. Even if they tried to dress the same

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Speaker 4: way and they couldn't even button those local shirts, they

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Speaker 4: stood out. And there's too many of them. Okay, So

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Speaker 4: you're saying there's some indigenous band of fighters that's on

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Speaker 4: the border out there, who's booking all the rooms over

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Speaker 4: there at the big hotel. Because it didn't match. Right

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Speaker 4: off the top. No, it just screamed spooks. And if

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Speaker 4: you did something so bold to say, oh, excuse me,

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Speaker 4: where are you from Ohio? What are you doing here?

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Speaker 4: You never got a straight answer out of anyone, and

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Speaker 4: it was just really smelly off the top. It took

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Speaker 4: me a while to for you this out, but someone

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Speaker 4: finally told me that that Honduran set up was the

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Speaker 4: third largest CIA station in the world, the second largest

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Speaker 4: outside of Moscow. I'm sorry, in this country, what are

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Speaker 4: we doing here? Exactly? Because I'm asking that question because

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Speaker 4: there's too many beefy white guys and nobody will tell

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Speaker 4: you what they do for a living. And oh, by

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Speaker 4: the way, what industry do we have here? Exactly? Sides

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Speaker 4: government propaganda and dirty wars. The contrasts had been formed

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Speaker 4: out of the old Samosa horses, and those guys were

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Speaker 4: seriously bad news, these alleged fighters, even before the big

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Speaker 4: Regan showdown with them. These guys were, as the kids say, now, sus.

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Speaker 4: These guys were sus from Jump Street. They were dubious.

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Speaker 4: No one ever walked in the room and said these upstanding,

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Speaker 4: fine guys who are clean soldiers from No one ever

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Speaker 4: said that about the contrast. Nothing's ever established as a truth.

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Speaker 4: It's always spongy, it's always moving and the guys who

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Speaker 4: fronted for the contrast in Tagusi Galpa. What a name

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Speaker 4: for a city, huh. They just weren't real. There was

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Speaker 4: sort of dark clouds hanging around those guys, and they

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Speaker 4: had this guy fronting the PR and Tagusikalpa. He wasn't

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Speaker 4: a fighter. He certainly was not a believer in anything.

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Speaker 4: The whole operation in Honduras was suspect, and so early

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Speaker 4: in my time of covering it, somebody had leaked the manual,

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Speaker 4: the torture manual that was part of the training of

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Speaker 4: the contrace. Why was anybody training people in torture? What's

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Speaker 4: this about? Aren't we supposed to be done with these tactics,

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Speaker 4: you know? And we were supposed to have been done

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Speaker 4: with those tactics. You know. America brought some real good

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Speaker 4: imports to that place.

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Speaker 1: The Contras were being trained and supplied in Honduras by

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Speaker 1: the CIA and leaders of the Honduran death squads.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know what to think. I was so rude,

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Speaker 4: but I was also young and tired and hot and

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Speaker 4: naive to just be direct. Made an appointment. I got

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Speaker 4: some time with the PR guy for the embassy, and

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Speaker 4: I walked into his office on the embassy grounds, closed

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Speaker 4: his door and said, yes, I'm Jane Wallis for CBS News.

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Speaker 4: What the fuck is going on in this country? And

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Speaker 4: he burst into laughter. He'd never had anybody be that direct,

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Speaker 4: and he knew I was smelling exactly what they were

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Speaker 4: trying to cover up all over town. And that was

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Speaker 4: the beginning of my time in Honduras and the beginning

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Speaker 4: of my time in Central America, because virtually everything the

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Speaker 4: Americans were doing that they didn't belong doing was headquartered

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Speaker 4: in Honduras and done against Nicaragua or through Salvador.

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Speaker 1: Certainly the worst kept secret in Central America, that's for.

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Speaker 4: Sure, you're kidding, and for good reason. They were just

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Speaker 4: so obvious. But it was such a backwater they didn't

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Speaker 4: figure anybody was going to notice.

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Speaker 1: But Jane noticed, and she's headed to Nicaragua to cover

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Speaker 1: one of the most brutal stories of her professional life.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 8: For four years, we've been helping to wage the world's

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Speaker 8: worst kept secret war, training and equipping a force known

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Speaker 8: as the Contrast, who are trying to overthrow the government

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Speaker 8: of Nicaragua, a government the Reagan Whitehouse believes is a

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Speaker 8: communist threat in our own backyard. What kind of war

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Speaker 8: are we paying for? And who are they killing?

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Speaker 1: Welcome back? That was Jane Wallace in the opening of

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Speaker 1: an episode of the CBS news magazine West fifty seventh,

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Speaker 1: billed as a younger hipper version of sixty Minutes. The

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Speaker 1: Christian Science Monitor called it a ditsy, disco beat documag

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Speaker 1: for viewers with short attention spans. The New York Times

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Speaker 1: said it isn't really television, and it certainly isn't journalism.

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Speaker 1: It's as if news and entertainment fell into combat and

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Speaker 1: either side one. I don't know about all that, but

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Speaker 1: the show is popular in its coverage of Nicaragua and

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Speaker 1: the Iran contra affair was nothing short of astonishing. I

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Speaker 1: spoke with Jane about a story she did for West

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Speaker 1: fifty seventh, one of the biggest stories of her career.

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Speaker 1: But first she has something to say about Cookie. Was

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Speaker 1: there a particular story that sent you into Nicaragua or

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Speaker 1: did you just go there?

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Speaker 4: Oh? God, I think I just got sent there. It

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Speaker 4: was a horrible place to go to. The people were poor,

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Speaker 4: they were hungry, the country was going nowhere, and the

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Speaker 4: only good thing about going to Nicaragua was Cookie. She

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Speaker 4: was the saving grace of being in Monagua. If she'd

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Speaker 4: been what she appeared to be, sort of a party

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Speaker 4: girl and just to fix her or I'll make a

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Speaker 4: call and then I'm going to go get high, she

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Speaker 4: wouldn't have been Cookie. The truth is that woman knew

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Speaker 4: what she was doing and she was born to it

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Speaker 4: as a journalist. She wasn't trained to it. How CBS

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Speaker 4: got so lucky as to find and hire her, I

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Speaker 4: don't know. She was the only reason anyone could cover

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Speaker 4: that war. In addition to being as clever and it's

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Speaker 4: completely charming and tank topped and skinny and riley and

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Speaker 4: all of that. She knew what she was doing and

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Speaker 4: she cared. She was never going to tell you that

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Speaker 4: she didn't have to. It was unspoken.

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Speaker 1: One of the big stories that came out of your

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Speaker 1: tenure there was what they call the Contra atrocities story,

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Speaker 1: and it involves a lot of your colleagues and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people that you rolled with all the time.

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Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about how this kind

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Speaker 1: of came to pass and where it went.

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Speaker 5: We witnessed Coultra atrocities way before the story that I'm

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Speaker 5: about to tell you massacres of women and children, massacres

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Speaker 5: of soldiers, torture techniques, so all these atrocities that we

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Speaker 5: had seen firsthand got But I like to call the

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Speaker 5: dream team. Leslie Coburn, Producer, Jane Wallace, on air talent

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Speaker 5: Manny Alvarez, camera crew with irv ran Hart, sound sometimes

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Speaker 5: George Bosa and myself. We were considered the dream team

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Speaker 5: at CBS. We adored each other, we worked well with

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Speaker 5: each other, and we would each of us go to

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Speaker 5: the ends of the earth for each other.

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Speaker 6: Clearly a band of brothers.

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Speaker 5: Leslie calls me and tells me, listen, we want to

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Speaker 5: do a contratrocity story.

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Speaker 6: We've heard about this American.

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Speaker 5: Nun that lives in again the asshole of the.

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Speaker 6: World in the jungles.

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Speaker 5: We hear that she's got a lot of stories, and

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Speaker 5: she's got a lot of victims that survived these atrocities

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Speaker 5: that she takes care of. She was in some remote

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Speaker 5: end of the earth place called Seuna. D.

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Speaker 1: Coburn is an award winning producer and journalist covering wars

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Speaker 1: with CBS, ABC and PBS's Frontline. While all accounts, the

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Speaker 1: best there is She's also Olivia Wilde's mom, who Cookie

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Speaker 1: first met as a toddler. In a chapter from her

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Speaker 1: book Looking for Trouble, Leslie tells us what motivated her

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Speaker 1: to do this story.

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Speaker 9: My intention was to get out of the Capitol and

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Speaker 9: into the remote countryside where the war was being fought.

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Speaker 9: Reports filtering out from priests and nuns suggested a systematic

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Speaker 9: use of classic terror tactics. New clinics docked with Cuban

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Speaker 9: medicine were blown up, Volunteers carrying vaccines into the jungle

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Speaker 9: had their throats slit. Even American nuns were kidnapped and

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Speaker 9: threatened with rape. I wanted to establish at what level

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Speaker 9: the tactics were sanctioned by Washington. Cookie was game. Her

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Speaker 9: translating skills were essential because she spoke the archaic peasant's

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Speaker 9: Spanish prevalent in the countryside.

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Speaker 1: Jane collaborated with Leslie for years on some of the

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Speaker 1: biggest stories of the eighties.

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Speaker 4: Leslie with further left than I was by entry and belief.

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Speaker 4: I didn't share that I didn't have the left right boloney,

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Speaker 4: because it turned out to be a set of choices

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Speaker 4: that didn't fit what was on the ground. Anyway, I

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Speaker 4: was nervous about having to do this story. I was

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Speaker 4: not anxious to do it, except that I knew there

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Speaker 4: was a reality there that needed to be revealed. I

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Speaker 4: knew there was ugliness, and I knew it was not

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Speaker 4: at all what was being touted in the States. Oh Jee,

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Speaker 4: freedom to give me a break. It was disillusioned very quickly.

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Speaker 4: But the Americans really needed to know what was being

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Speaker 4: done in their name. We were totally committed to trying

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Speaker 4: to get to the places no one else had gotten to,

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Speaker 4: to talk to people face to face, and it took

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Speaker 4: more than anybody bargained for.

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Speaker 1: The region had been closed off the journalists by Interior

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Speaker 1: Minister Thomas Borge because it was controlled by the contrast.

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Speaker 1: It was too dangerous. Leslie asked Cookie to set up

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Speaker 1: a meeting with him.

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Speaker 9: Cookie, Jane, and I arrived to find ourselves ushered into

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Speaker 9: a private dining room at the Officers Club with a

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Speaker 9: well appointed table for six. It seemed Borge, infatuated with Jane,

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Speaker 9: had thoughtfully brought two friends in toe. I was paired

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Speaker 9: off with a well traveled ambassador. Cookie was assigned to

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Speaker 9: a Rakish general. We survived this absurd lunch without disgracing ourselves.

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Speaker 9: And by the time we returned to the CBS bureau,

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Speaker 9: a dozen Roses were waiting for Jane.

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Speaker 1: Needless to say, they got the permission they wanted. But

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Speaker 1: that was the easy part.

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Speaker 4: If you're going to stage some lies like the Contras

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Speaker 4: are a really great All American fighting force, you stage

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Speaker 4: that line a place where no one can get to it,

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Speaker 4: to hold the light up to it. That's what they

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Speaker 4: had done. So these places were remote, isn't the word

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Speaker 4: for it. They were inaccessible for the most party except

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Speaker 4: by Donkey.

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Speaker 1: Was it a long trap to get to where you

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Speaker 1: were going.

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Speaker 4: Everywhere we went for that story, it was a place

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Speaker 4: no one was meant to go to. The logistics in

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Speaker 4: these places were hideous. The roads were not meant to

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Speaker 4: be driven on. The vehicles had no air conditioning. It was,

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Speaker 4: you know, one hundred degrees with ninety eight percent humidity

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Speaker 4: and Monovo five about eleven thirty in the morning. I

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Speaker 4: never wanted to go to that country again as long

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Speaker 4: as ise life.

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Speaker 1: Their journey soon evolves into a dark Central American version

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Speaker 1: of planes, trains, and automobiles, except with the Russian biplane.

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Speaker 1: A couple of beat up old Chevy and Paula's and

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Speaker 1: an indigenous canoe called a paponte. They spend the first

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Speaker 1: day driving to the last vestige of civilization they would

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Speaker 1: see for a couple of weeks, Rio Blanco, hooking up

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Speaker 1: with a military convoy for a couple of hours, and

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Speaker 1: traveling alone through the contra infested territory at night. Leslie

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Speaker 1: describes it like this.

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Speaker 9: Are odds of being attacked for fifty to fifty we

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Speaker 9: were easy pray for ambush. The thought of who was

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Speaker 9: waiting in the darkness blade my nerves. No one spoke.

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Speaker 9: I steadied myself, breathed deeply, and let Bonnie raate belt

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Speaker 9: through my headphones.

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Speaker 4: You go through ten flat tires in a day, you

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Speaker 4: couldn't count on getting anywhere. So by the time you're

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Speaker 4: rolling up somewhere, a lot has gone into having those

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Speaker 4: tires underneath you and any idea of where you're going.

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Speaker 4: So that's how we ended up taking that canoe. The

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Speaker 4: road stopped. What are you going to do? You take

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Speaker 4: a canoe and try and hitch something on the other side.

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Speaker 4: You can't just drive through in the car If it doesn't,

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Speaker 4: I mean, nothing works like that.

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Speaker 1: Where they are heading is so remote and inaccessible. The

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Speaker 1: only way to get there is through the air.

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Speaker 5: I've got to set up a plane, which is one

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Speaker 5: of these rinky dig two propeller clopboard planes that once

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Speaker 5: you get on you're not sure if you're going to

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Speaker 5: get to where you're going. And we all head to

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Speaker 5: see you to meet the nun. Yeah, this is a

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Speaker 5: town that has no paved roads, shacks, they didn't even

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Speaker 5: have electricity.

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Speaker 4: It's hard for me to describe the kind of desolation

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Speaker 4: of these places, and like something was there once that

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Speaker 4: got ruined. All it is a difference slightly in the

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Speaker 4: vegetation or a pile of graves somewhere.

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Speaker 5: So we go, we meet with the nun sister something,

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Speaker 5: and we proceed to do our story.

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Speaker 4: And with that Gal, the none we spoke to first.

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Speaker 4: I remember sitting on her porch trying to do an interview.

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Speaker 4: This port was so small. I'm chewing my knees across

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Speaker 4: from this woman who has an equally small space because

401
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Speaker 4: there's nowhere else with any shade to shoot an interview.

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Speaker 4: Man fell asleep on my shoulder because he'd taken so

403
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Speaker 4: much gramamine in anticipation of this Russian biplane. The guy

404
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Speaker 4: is such a great cameraman that he never went out

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Speaker 4: of focus. Never, not once I heard him snoring. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: never lost focus.

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Speaker 1: What does she tell me about?

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Speaker 5: She's telling us about all these atrocities and how she's

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Speaker 5: keeping the faith helping these survivors, which were mostly children

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Speaker 5: that we were getting ready to meet.

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Speaker 1: The Nine introduces them to Guadalupe da Vila, a fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old girl who survived a recent Contra attack.

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Speaker 10: Family was murdered by the Contra in November when the

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Speaker 10: baby was six days old.

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Speaker 4: The parents were murdered.

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Speaker 10: Yes, a brother of the mother, his girlfriend, the four

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Speaker 10: year old brother of this baby. Contra attacked about twenty

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Speaker 10: of them and one night.

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Speaker 1: In this interview with Guadeloupe, you can hear Cookie translating

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Speaker 1: her story. Is hard to listen to.

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Speaker 4: Did they shoot them?

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Speaker 3: You see, young Papaguya.

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Speaker 6: They split us through? How about your mother? They killed

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Speaker 6: her and then they took her clothes off?

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Speaker 8: And what happened that when like.

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Speaker 4: To burn her clothes?

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Speaker 2: Lily pure graph of faith?

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Speaker 4: Oh God, we are you know. It's one thing to

429
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Speaker 4: sort of think people are behaving in that kind of

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Speaker 4: almost pure evil. It's another thing to hear that through

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Speaker 4: the mouth of a child who's lost her parent or

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Speaker 4: who's had to witness something like this that's almost on

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Speaker 4: fathomable as a human being.

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Speaker 1: They interviewed a priest with a similar.

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Speaker 2: Story rape a girl of fourteen years old because her

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Speaker 2: father was a member of a committee, cut off her

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Speaker 2: head and put her head along the trail. So that

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Speaker 2: the rest of the Compassino's get the idea that in

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Speaker 2: no way should they be participating in some kind of

440
00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: government sponsored organization.

441
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,919
Speaker 1: Jane spoke to twin brothers who witnessed contra Atrocity's firsthand.

442
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 8: The twins survived the killing that let their father and

443
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 8: friends get in a ditch. La Contrell jakeamar Alianri, one

444
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 8: of the countries, said let's set all of these dead

445
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 8: people on fire, and their boss said no, let's just

446
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 8: throw them all in the ditch and let him be

447
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 8: there and there and.

448
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 6: What happened then the pass.

449
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 4: There.

450
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 8: Then they finished off a couple of kids that were

451
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 8: just wounded. They finished them off. They killed them, Yes,

452
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 8: in front of your kids, in front see what happened

453
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 8: to your.

454
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 4: Daddy, Pierre.

455
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 8: He pulled off the skin off his face and his feet.

456
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 4: When you're standing there in Nicaragua and you're looking into

457
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 4: a child's face. It's other worldly dark. It is hard

458
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 4: to grasp it as a reality because it's so damn dark.

459
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 4: Who would do this to another human being in front

460
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 4: of the child? To do this by design? To people

461
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 4: who are campasinos. These are simple folks. These are the

462
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 4: people that will share their tortillas with you. If that's

463
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 4: all anybody's got, they'll give them to you. And they

464
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 4: aren't political. It's overwhelming that this is real human experience

465
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: and someone did that to this person or a group

466
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 4: of people with power, for whatever reason, did that to

467
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 4: these people who didn't have any which is why they

468
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 4: were stuck for it. And it still overwhelms me what

469
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: they did, what the countries did to some of these people.

470
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: In listening to the interview, the one thing that I

471
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: was taken by, other than the obvious horror that they're describing,

472
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: there's a solemn quality of just talking to someone. I

473
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: was hearing your words, I was hearing the children or

474
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: the victims speaking about what happened, and I was hearing

475
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: cookies translation, and there was like this kind of a

476
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: strange respect, something very powerful happening in that three way exchange.

477
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 4: Yes, there's not a lot of extra jabber or talk.

478
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 4: I mean, all of us were just tuned in. There's

479
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 4: a real deep respect for somebody having been so badly treated.

480
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 4: Those kids. Oh my god. You know, I looked at

481
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 4: these pieces again and thought, wonder how she grew up

482
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 4: with that. I wonder what happened. I wonder who raised

483
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: that baby. I mean happen you looking to wonder what

484
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 4: kind of an effect that had on their lives. To remember,

485
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 4: in the larger world, they're still talking about how to

486
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: figure out if your husband's cheating on talk shows. But

487
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 4: there you are. You're looking in the face of a

488
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: baby who lost both parents and some days when we'll

489
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 4: tell them this terrific story about why they're dead. Yes,

490
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 4: you know, you're doing important work, and the only reason

491
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 4: to do that work is to try and find out

492
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: what the hell went on there.

493
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 11: The tactics are what we call terrorist tactics. They are

494
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 11: not military tactics.

495
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 8: Edward Chimorrow was one of the top political leaders of

496
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 8: the Countra Group FDN. He was fired last November. The

497
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 8: FDN says foreign competence.

498
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 9: Neither Jane nor I expected them to be nearly so

499
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 9: forthcoming about the contra army that he had helped run.

500
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 8: How much did and does the CIA know of the

501
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 8: abuses taking place? How long have they known of those abuses?

502
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 11: They knew everything. They were all the time with us,

503
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 11: very close to us. They were monitoring all the action.

504
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 11: They were briefing. They briefing. They were in close contact

505
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 11: in our basis with our men. They were exposed to

506
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 11: all autrocities abuse.

507
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 8: Did the White House know about these abuses?

508
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 11: We talked only to high people in the CIA, and

509
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 11: those people used to say that the White House knows

510
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 11: very well what's going on.

511
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: In her book, Leslie sums us up in one horrible nutshell.

512
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 9: A CIA field manual was the bible of the camps.

513
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 9: With the manual, they were condoning the practical use of terror.

514
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 4: I had never heard of people peeling other people's skins,

515
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 4: or some will be headed in there, head put on

516
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 4: a pole for others to see the brutality of it,

517
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: or that your government had a hand in this actually

518
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 4: happening to people. It's just beyond the panel.

519
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: I want to finish with a great piece of journalism,

520
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: something we don't see much of these days. Jane Wallace

521
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: doing her thing old school sweating out a contra military

522
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: leader and.

523
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 11: I had the commandant. Is that they have executed people

524
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 11: in cold blood because they were part of this machinery.

525
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 8: Is someone who teaches reading a legitimate target. Someone who

526
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 8: teaches reading for the government is someone who works on

527
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 8: a cooperative for the government. A legitimate target, listen, is

528
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 8: someone who gives vaccinations. A legitimate target is somebody whose

529
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 8: relative is in the army or the militia.

530
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 6: A legitimate target.

531
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 8: Are you saying you only attack military targets and military people, Yes,

532
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 8: for sure. Why do these civilians they have to be

533
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 8: in uniform or they have to be armed.

534
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: I guess the Contraus soldiers that slaughtered these families didn't

535
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: get the memo. In the next segment, the dream Team

536
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: is invited by Contraus soldiers to witness an actual war crime.

537
00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, welcome back. I'll be honest. There

538
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: are several accounts of the story, all a little bit different.

539
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how it actually went down. All I

540
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: know is that it actually happened, and they all agree

541
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: on how it ended. After days and days traveling difficult terrain,

542
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: trying to track down the most despicable stories of terror.

543
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: The crew is approached by a Contra soldier. He wants

544
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: them to see something.

545
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: We were approached by someone that said, we'd like you

546
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 5: to come take pictures of something that's going to happen

547
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 5: in a few days or in a day or so.

548
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 6: We didn't know who this person was.

549
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 5: We found out later that he was playing like he

550
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 5: was a Sandinista, but he was in league with the Contras,

551
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 5: and so we were taken out to this remote area

552
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 5: where these Contras had a pow. A Sandinista prisoner.

553
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: Manny Alvarez, the cameraman for the Dream Team, sets it

554
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: up for us.

555
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 12: The Cultures had captured a spy who they called the

556
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 12: spy a peasant.

557
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 5: They wanted us to not film, but to take pictures

558
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 5: of what was about to happen.

559
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 6: And it was this poor guy.

560
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 5: Digging and digging and digging, and it didn't take us

561
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 5: long to realize they're making him dig his own grave.

562
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 5: And at this point we're getting a little nervous because

563
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 5: we're taking pictures. We obviously see what is going to

564
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 5: be the inevitable result of this, And then are they

565
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 5: going to kill us for witnessing.

566
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 6: And taking pictures.

567
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 5: But these were again a group of conscious that were

568
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 5: very educated, didn't even realize, you know, what they were

569
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 5: letting us witness how it could affect the grand scheme

570
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 5: of things. And sure enough, the poor guys digging and digging.

571
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 5: I think that maybe he even realized that he was

572
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 5: digging his own grave, but hoping against hope, they.

573
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 12: Put him in the grave and they stopped them.

574
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 13: They killed them with a bait a knife.

575
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: Why didn't you shoot the guy?

576
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 4: I have no idea.

577
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 13: I mean, they certainly had enough bullets.

578
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 8: The victim was a civilian accused by the countries of

579
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,240
Speaker 8: collaborating with the Sandinistas.

580
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 11: When I went to FDN, I found out the I mean,

581
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 11: this thing that CIA used to give us was a

582
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 11: big knife. You know, it's called commander knife. Everybody wanted

583
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 11: to have a knife like that, and the Knight was

584
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 11: to kill people, to cut their throats.

585
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 5: So we've got these still photos and they're gonna let

586
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 5: us walk away, which we did. Still photos don't do

587
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 5: much for video. People like news like news. How are

588
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 5: we gonna post still shots on the news?

589
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, like CBS, isn't Life magazine, right?

590
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 6: You're showing your age there with Life magazine.

591
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 5: So we decided we're just gonna send these pictures to

592
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 5: New York and let them see what they can do

593
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 5: with it, because obviously this is a contra atrocity.

594
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 6: They took those still.

595
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 5: Photos and they made it work like with cartoons. You

596
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 5: know when you animation, you shuffle the papers so quickly

597
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 5: it looks like it's moving.

598
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just animated the photos.

599
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 6: Yeah.

600
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: Do you remember the moment this is happening where you

601
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: think you guys are kind of in danger in this moment.

602
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 6: Oh, we all thought that what's to stop them from

603
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 6: killing us?

604
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: Are you just sort of stuck in there? Like you

605
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: can't leave, you can't go forward, You're just sort.

606
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 5: Of we're stuck in there. But at the same time,

607
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 5: we know way we need this.

608
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 6: This is great.

609
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 5: This is some sort of exclusive and that's what war

610
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 5: correspondents are all about, the risk to.

611
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 6: Get the story. But yeah, there was some fear of that.

612
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 5: But then again, if they killed us, then their story

613
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 5: wouldn't get out.

614
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: Can you imagine being someone who thinks this would be

615
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: a good story for the news come see?

616
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, insane, insanity.

617
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 8: The photograph show a man whom the other troops had

618
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 8: determined was spy being murdered, forced to dig his own

619
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 8: grave cut up?

620
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 6: What do you think of that?

621
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 7: Well, I think it was necessary to do it in

622
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 7: the way they did.

623
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 8: It was not necessary.

624
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 7: Not because they could be shot at.

625
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 6: That's all. I shieved.

626
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 8: No problem with people being murdered at the whim of

627
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 8: the troops.

628
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 7: He was a spy, according to what the report said,

629
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 7: and in war despite had to be ponies in that way.

630
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: One of the strangest things about war, as we've talked

631
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: about it over this podcast and in just in general,

632
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: is like what becomes okay to.

633
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 5: People soldiers, victims and journalists alike. Everybody gets to a

634
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 5: point that they're numb. Now, that was one thing I

635
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 5: tried to fight against my whole career, not getting so

636
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 5: numb to the point where things didn't affect me or

637
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 5: matter to me anymore.

638
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 6: And for the most part it worked.

639
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 1: There was one story that didn't make it to the

640
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: West fifty seventh broadcast.

641
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 4: What happened was that after days and days and days

642
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 4: of either trying to get to these remote places and

643
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: I mean scraping it out, whether it's changing tires for

644
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 4: the fifteenth time, and could anybody have a coke in

645
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 4: this town. That's maybe you know, less than eighty degrees.

646
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 4: After days and days of that, and then you finally

647
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 4: interview somebody and you're hearing about this horrific stuff, just

648
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 4: horrific human experience. You still have to get up the

649
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: next morning and keep trying to find the next one

650
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 4: and see what's going on.

651
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: After all they've seen and heard, they get one more interview.

652
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 4: It wasn't even like a farmer, like, you know, some

653
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 4: guy that he did have his own house of some sort,

654
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 4: but houses there are kind of limited deals. This is

655
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 4: not a two story ranch with a couple of cars

656
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 4: out front. Most of these places didn't have a TV.

657
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 4: Radio was a big deal. But it was that isolated

658
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 4: and that remote and that hard.

659
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 12: We were kind of in I want to say it

660
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 12: was a sugarcane area or so. We were kind of

661
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 12: outside amongst the trees. This guy was a little old guy,

662
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 12: little peasant, dark skinned, typical Niclauguan peasant. And he starts

663
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 12: telling us the story of his encounter with the cultures.

664
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 12: You know, I'm shooting James in front of me, Leslie's

665
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 12: off to the side, and IRV is right behind me

666
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 12: running the body.

667
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 4: So we're listening to this guy's story and I think

668
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 4: his property had been torched. He was being attacked. His

669
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 4: wife was there, and he was relaying his story about

670
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 4: having some god Ah. I believe he was describing. We're

671
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 4: out in this field, you know, like a sideyard of

672
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 4: a place that once existed, you know, Central America began

673
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 4: to feel like it was a sideyard of a place

674
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 4: that once existed more than once. But this guy had

675
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 4: shown us around this tangled property. But it's not even

676
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 4: like you can tell the edge of the yard. This

677
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: really is not easy to discern. This guy is telling

678
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 4: us about watching someone else be attacked, like but someone

679
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 4: close in his family. And he lifts up his hand

680
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 4: like he's got a dagger in it, and for some reason,

681
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 4: the move he makes is very animated. He makes a

682
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: gesture like he's being stabbed in the throat, but it

683
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 4: looks like all of a sudden, it could have come

684
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 4: out of a road Runner cartoon. And I hear cookies

685
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 4: start to go. She's right down below me because I'm standing,

686
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 4: I'm talking to the guy she's trying, so I'm hearing

687
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 4: the sound come up, but I don't know why. But

688
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 4: without looking down. I can feel her back starting to

689
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 4: go up and down, and I knew when he made

690
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 4: this gesture that she'd lost it. She was gone. She

691
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 4: was starting to laugh.

692
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 5: Something triggered us, like on a Saturday Night Live skit

693
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 5: when somebody starts laughing and they all start laughing and

694
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 5: can't control the laughter.

695
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 13: I don't know why I started laughing, but I found

696
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 13: it just I couldn't hold it it.

697
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 4: Then I heard Manny behind me. He'd seen the same thing.

698
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 4: It was just out of nowhere. We all noticed this

699
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: hysterically cartoonish gesture in the middle of this catch on

700
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 4: this horrible story, but it was funny, and so Manny

701
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: started to lose it behind me, I felt last we go,

702
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 4: and by the time I started laughing, I was the

703
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 4: most ashamed in the world and uncontrollable laughter.

704
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 5: We're all giggling, we're trying to hide it, we're trying

705
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 5: to act normal, and the poor guy just had no

706
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 5: idea what he had said. Why it triggered us that way,

707
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 5: and we didn't want him to think that we were

708
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:15,919
Speaker 5: laughing at him.

709
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: Do you remember the look on his face when you were.

710
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 6: I just didn't know what was going on.

711
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 5: You know he was an uneducated, humble peasant that had

712
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 5: no clue why we were laughing, and he didn't take

713
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 5: it personally.

714
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 6: It was horrifying for us.

715
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 4: Nothing had been funny in so many days. Everything had

716
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 4: just been done offul and all of a sudden, this

717
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 4: one little gesture like the guy is stabbing him something

718
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 4: the throat struck all of us as that funny.

719
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 13: And meanwhile, this guy's sitting there looking at us, like,

720
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 13: are you people insane?

721
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 4: Cookie's down below, she doesn't have to look him right

722
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: face man, He's behind me with a lens to his eye.

723
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 4: Astley's off turning around on one side, and I'm stuck

724
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 4: looking the guy in the face, and I have tears.

725
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: I'm laughing so hard that there are tears running down

726
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 4: the side of my face. I'm trying to lie, I'm

727
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 4: not a liar or nature, but I'm like, oh no,

728
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,760
Speaker 4: you know, we're laughing because she got something in her eye.

729
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 4: And I've never ever felt that ashamed as they did

730
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 4: that day, laughing in this man's face, never And I

731
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: can still see him doing this gesture, and all of

732
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 4: us were mortified that we lost it, all of us.

733
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 13: It was kind of one of those moments where you know,

734
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 13: in the middle of all the horror, for whatever reason,

735
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 13: you know, we found a moment where something ended up

736
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 13: at least seeming to be one of those indescribable moments

737
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 13: where you wish that had never happened.

738
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 5: The most embarrassing, horrifying moment of my career, and of course,

739
00:42:55,040 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 5: of Jane's career, of Manny's career. We cannot stop laughing.

740
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: That is such a terrible and funny story all mixed.

741
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 4: Together, funny and got awful. But that was Central America.

742
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 4: It was funny and got awful, got awful and funny,

743
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 4: full eyes full of beans, full of oh my god.

744
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 4: But if you didn't laugh, you would just not be

745
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 4: able to get up and work again and again and again.

746
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: Every time I'm talking to somebody about that story, like

747
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: I talked to Manny, he goes, oh, that was the

748
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: That might have been my worst day ever in the field.

749
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: That was one of the worst. I'm so ashamed. You're

750
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: not going to put that in there, are you. And

751
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, everybody keeps bringing it up, So I

752
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: think it's a tale that feels like a part of something,

753
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 1: not its own standalone thing. It's not like you're laughing

754
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: at some poor peasant. It's a result of the whole experience.

755
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: It was pent up nervousness on our end. Maybe it

756
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 5: was because we had witnessed so many horrible things on

757
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 5: that trip, heard about so many horrible things, saw the

758
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 5: results of survivors.

759
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: One of those kind of things where it's just all

760
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: of the anxiety and all of the agony that you've

761
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 1: witnessed it just sort of all comes up in this

762
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: really wrong way.

763
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, like if you're at a funeral and you just

764
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 5: start getting the giggles and you don't know why.

765
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: The Contra Atrocity story aired on West fifty seventh in

766
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: August of nineteen eighty five. Americans were finding out for

767
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: the first time what was really happening in Nicaragua what

768
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: their own government was paying for. Next time, on Journalista

769
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: Cookie Saves the World from Mutually Assured Nuclear Destruction.

770
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 5: There were some rumors about some possible Russian big aircraft

771
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 5: headed to Nicaragua. The State Department of the US is

772
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 5: not happy with this, and I think that you should

773
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 5: know that they're saying there will be a problem if

774
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 5: this up and remakes it into Nicaragua.

775
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: The Journalista Podcast features the stories and voice of Cookie Hood.

776
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: Narrated by Steven Estev, Produced by Sean J. Donnelly. Executive

777
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: producers Jason Wagensback, Roy Laughlin, and Ellen k iHeart Executive

778
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: producer Tyler Klang. Written and edited by Steven Estev. Music

779
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: by Jay Weigel, Associate producer in sound design Stephen Tanti.

780
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: Sound mixing by Jesse Solan Snyder. Special guest Lloyd Sherr,

781
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: the Amazing Jane Wallace, Rachel Whitman Groves as the voice

782
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: of Leslie Coeburn Manny Alvarez Special thanks to Esplanade Studios,

783
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: The Ranch Studios, Jason Gerwitz, Kyle Frederick, Zach Slaff. This

784
00:45:50,200 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: is a production of Journalista Podcast, LLC and iHeartRadio. They

785
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: Never