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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Lamb. In today's episode, I chat with author

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Speaker 2: and illustrator George O'Connor, creator of the twelve volume Olympians

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Speaker 2: comics series. His new book, Odin is his first venture

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Speaker 2: in a new As Guardians graphic novel series, and it

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Speaker 2: is out today in all fourmats. I'd spoken with George

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Speaker 2: a couple of years back and decided at that point

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Speaker 2: that he would make for a great guest here on

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Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, you know, given our general

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Speaker 2: interest on the show here in Global myths. So it

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Speaker 2: was a real treat to get to chat with him here. Plus,

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Speaker 2: he is one of my son's favorite authors, so hopefully

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Speaker 2: I'm still scoring a few cool dad points here and there.

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Speaker 2: So without further ado, let's jump right in to the interview. Hi, George,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: So, the new graphic novel is Odin, the first in

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Speaker 2: your brand new as Guardians series, and this comes on

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Speaker 2: the heels of your what twelve volume Olympian series about

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Speaker 2: the gods of Greek mythology. Yeah, so, how did the

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Speaker 2: Olympians come together, and then how did that lead into

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Speaker 2: this new venture?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I mean it's it's kind of a long story

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Speaker 4: and there's almost like multiple different versions I could tell,

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Speaker 4: but you know, as a fan of your podcast, I

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Speaker 4: know some of the spots I should really hit. So

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Speaker 4: Olympians was a lifelong love. Right when I was in

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Speaker 4: third grade, I was involved in a special school program

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Speaker 4: where we kind of did project based learning where the

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Speaker 4: teacher who's headed it up, hi missus stimili if you're listening,

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Speaker 4: She would do these big project based things. We would study,

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Speaker 4: like say, we studied like Rube Goldberg for instance, as

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Speaker 4: a way of studying the history of comics and at

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Speaker 4: the same time studying like simple machines and stuff. And

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Speaker 4: we did a whole section on Greek mythology, and it

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Speaker 4: was the thing that really clicked with me. I was

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Speaker 4: the kid who drew. A lot of kids drew back then,

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Speaker 4: but that was definitely my identity. I was the kid

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Speaker 4: who drew. I like to draw like monsters and muscle

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Speaker 4: men and stuff. This is the age of like he

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Speaker 4: Man and things. I think the original Clash of the Titans,

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Speaker 4: the Ray Harryhausen was just out in theaters or had

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Speaker 4: been out, so there was a lot of young Greek

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Speaker 4: in the air. And it was a big thing for me,

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Speaker 4: partially because the stories were so not the sort of

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Speaker 4: thing you would be exposed to as a kid normally.

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Speaker 4: They were full of like, you know, violence and sexy

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Speaker 4: stuff and things that like as a third grade you

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Speaker 4: were normally not allowed to look at. But because it

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Speaker 4: was like this Greek mythology thing, it was condoned. And

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Speaker 4: I was also the kid who hated being talked down

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Speaker 4: to the second I could tell an adult was like

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Speaker 4: talking down to me, I'm like, this person's an idiot,

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Speaker 4: and I don't know why I'm talking to them. So

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Speaker 4: this all just came together in this perfect mix for me,

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Speaker 4: and it just became a lie flowing love. And I

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Speaker 4: read a lot of books, like all the books I

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Speaker 4: could find about Greek mythology, and then I branched out

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Speaker 4: to other mythologies after I kind of exhausted everything in

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Speaker 4: my library, and one of the things I got into

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Speaker 4: was Norse mythology, and by that point, I think I

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Speaker 4: was induced to Greeks about like third grade. By Norse

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Speaker 4: mythology got into about sixth grade, and at that time,

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Speaker 4: I also discovered superhero comics. My mom bought me an

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Speaker 4: issue of The Mighty Thor one day when I was

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Speaker 4: home sick from school. Both my parents read comics, but

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Speaker 4: not They weren't like Wednesday Warriors. They didn't run to

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Speaker 4: the shops, but we just had a lot of comics

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Speaker 4: in the house, and my mom bought.

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Speaker 3: Me this Thor.

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Speaker 4: It was during the creator Walt Simonson's run, And if

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Speaker 4: you know your Marvel comics, you know Walt Simonson he

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Speaker 4: took you know, the Marvel comics of Thor is mythologically

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Speaker 4: not particularly accurate. You know, it was created by Stanley

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Speaker 4: and Jack Kirby and Journey to Mystery in the sixties.

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Speaker 4: But during the eighties Walt Simonson took over this book

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Speaker 4: as writer and and illustrator the cartoonist for it, and

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Speaker 4: he really brought the mythology back in a very accurate way.

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Speaker 4: So basically, as I was reading these mythological stories for

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Speaker 4: the first times, I'm also being exposed to these comics

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Speaker 4: that are retelling the mythology in a way that makes

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Speaker 4: sense to me. And so it plays this big role

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Speaker 4: the whole idea behind Olympians and now as Guardians is

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Speaker 4: it's classic superhero retellings of mythology that sounds maybe more

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Speaker 4: crass the one. I hope they come out as like,

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Speaker 4: it's not just all bam pao stuff. It's just using

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Speaker 4: the kind of storytelling techniques to like make the way

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Speaker 4: the stories came alive in my brain as a kid

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Speaker 4: seeing all these big long names and big long words

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Speaker 4: and stuff like. They came to life in a very

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Speaker 4: exciting way for me, both mythologies Greek and Norse, and

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Speaker 4: being introduced to Thor and then through that just becoming

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Speaker 4: a comic book fiend, particularly old Marvel comics and such.

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Speaker 4: The two were very inextra linked. Of the two mythologies,

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Speaker 4: Greek mythology was always my favor. It was my first love,

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Speaker 4: and so I've you know, that was it made sense

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Speaker 4: for that to be the first series I brought to

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Speaker 4: life with Olympians, which was like a twelve volume series.

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Speaker 4: Each one was centered on a different Olympian God. Not exhaustive.

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Speaker 4: There's too much Greek mythology to tell every myth, but

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Speaker 4: just enough to give a portrait of the goddess or

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Speaker 4: god the book was about. And I wrapped it up

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Speaker 4: with twelve books because that seemed like a good number.

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Speaker 4: And then I was like, I'm going to do the

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Speaker 4: Norse because you know, after twelve years of doing Olympians

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Speaker 4: one book a year, essentially, you know, Greek gods are

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Speaker 4: very beautiful and you know perfect that way, I wanted

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Speaker 4: to dress something like a little bit grittier and like

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Speaker 4: the Norse mythology.

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Speaker 3: It's like that those gods.

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Speaker 4: Are not renowned for their beauty, with a few exceptions,

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Speaker 4: like you know the stories like those gods as a spoiler,

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Speaker 4: they get old, they die, they get maimed, not the perfect,

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Speaker 4: all powerful beings. So it's a real exciting, fun change

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Speaker 4: of pace after over a decade working on one style mythology,

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Speaker 4: to dip my fingers into tell this other style.

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Speaker 2: Now the Yeah, the Olympian series. I was introduced to

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Speaker 2: these because my son, who's about to turn twelve, he

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Speaker 2: got really into them during the pandemic. I think maybe

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Speaker 2: he got him. We got him initially through the library system,

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Speaker 2: but then eventually we just had to buy them all

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Speaker 2: because he needed to read them over and over again. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he was a he wasn't is a huge fan because

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Speaker 2: I think they fed his curiosity about Greek mythology. Well

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Speaker 2: also ultimately I think pushing pushing him more into other

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Speaker 2: global myths and getting him into other things like like

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Speaker 2: the novels of Rick Ryerdan and the various authors under

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Speaker 2: that Rick uired and presents Spanner. Yeah and yeah, I

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Speaker 2: wish I'd had some of these resources growing up, because

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Speaker 2: I feel like I had the what is it, the

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Speaker 2: d d Alari's Book of Greek Myths?

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Speaker 3: Oh, Delaria's Book of Greek Myths?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, I had that one, and I had

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Speaker 2: some like really stuffy old books of my aunts and

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Speaker 2: then just Clash the Titans, and those are like the

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Speaker 2: main initial resources I had for Greek mythology.

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Speaker 4: I think we probably pulled on exactly the same resources.

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Speaker 4: So I have a huge soft spot for Delaire's Book

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Speaker 4: of Greek Myths. And if you're listening at home, you

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Speaker 4: don't know this book, you probably do. It was an

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Speaker 4: oversized yellow and orange cover of like a sun God.

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Speaker 4: Every library had it, every classroom should have it. And

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Speaker 4: it was this husband wife team, the de Laires who

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Speaker 4: retold Greek mythology and the illustrations, like I'm obsessed with

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Speaker 4: this book, Like you can.

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Speaker 3: Even look online.

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Speaker 4: There's a comic I did for The New York Times

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Speaker 4: about Dolaires because I love this book so much and

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Speaker 4: like the illustrations are some of them are so cool

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Speaker 4: and some of them are so.

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Speaker 3: Weird.

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Speaker 4: And as a kid, it was something I grappled with.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I don't know what to make of this imagery,

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Speaker 4: and so I would redraw the myths in my own style.

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Speaker 4: And that's such a cornerstone of what Olympians grew out

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Speaker 4: of what the Delairs did that was amazing, I think,

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Speaker 4: is taking all the disparate threads of Greek mythology, all

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Speaker 4: these different versions of stories written over the entire Mediterranean

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Speaker 4: world over hundreds of years, no real connection, there's no Bible,

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Speaker 4: but they took it and worked it into a really

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Speaker 4: nice cohesive narrative. And that's something that I've tried to

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Speaker 4: do with both as Guardians and Olympians, to take all

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Speaker 4: these disparate stories and like it's that superhero mentality, like

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Speaker 4: if this is all in continuity, how do we make

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Speaker 4: this work? One of my pet peeves though growing up

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Speaker 4: it was those stuffy old mythology books, Like I appreciate

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Speaker 4: it as a sophisticate, a relatively sophisticated adult when you

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Speaker 4: read a Greek mythology book that's illustrated with like faux

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Speaker 4: like you know, vase painting drawings and stuff. But as

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Speaker 4: a kid, that doesn't grab you, and it's already Sometimes

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Speaker 4: for some people it's a real uphill battle when you

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Speaker 4: see like Hefestos or Persephone or all these long names.

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Speaker 4: Some people it just it's an impenetrable wall of texts.

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Speaker 3: They just get blocked. They never get into it.

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Speaker 4: And that's such a key part of like what the

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Speaker 4: myths were to me was like bringing them to life

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Speaker 4: the way I saw them in my head, doing that

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Speaker 4: in my books that way, and of course Clash of

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Speaker 4: the Titans, seeing that it was just like that was

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Speaker 4: pretty mind blowing. Oh yeah, yeah, although I do have

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Speaker 4: a huge problem with the cracking.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, because he's not from Greek mythology.

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Speaker 4: I was that kid. I still am that guy, clearly,

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Speaker 4: I'm mentioning it now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. My son actually points to your Olympian series often

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Speaker 2: it's like this is the real stuff, this is the

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Speaker 2: accurate stuff. It took me a long time to get

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Speaker 2: him into the mcu thor movies because he would criticize it.

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Speaker 2: Constantly it's like, this is not actually the way the

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Speaker 2: mythology works, This is not what Thor is about. I

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Speaker 2: had to like kind of just gently bring him into

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Speaker 2: it more and be like, well, you know, this is

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Speaker 2: a different version. This is a like a science fiction

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Speaker 2: using those characters.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, part of my original pitch for as guardians, Like

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Speaker 4: I think the first line is Thor is not Loki's brother.

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Speaker 4: Loki is Odin's blood brother. If anything, Loki is his uncle,

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Speaker 4: and that's always describes attention. Like the Marvel versions of

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Speaker 4: Thor and Loki and Odin all Norse mythology have so

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Speaker 4: firmly supplanted in the public consciousness any idea that people

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Speaker 4: have of the original, like you could just kind that's

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Speaker 4: like a controversial statement, like yeah, they're not brothers, they're

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Speaker 4: like what and just the depictions of the gods are

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Speaker 4: so different, especially Thor. So my book Odin is coming

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Speaker 4: out soon, Thor comes out later in the year. It's

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Speaker 4: already done, and like the Thor of myth is such

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Speaker 4: like a delightful lummis and like that was such a

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Speaker 4: fun book to do, probably the most fun I've ever

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Speaker 4: had doing a book. Is just he's this big dumb,

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Speaker 4: muscle bound brute who just like you know, he just

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Speaker 4: lives to smash things with his hammer, which I mean,

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Speaker 4: I guess some of that is similar to the mcu version.

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Speaker 4: But he's also he's no Chris Hemsworth. He's not like

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Speaker 4: this gorgeous blode. He's an overly muscled, like briskly haired,

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Speaker 4: redheaded guy with a beard like covered with body hair.

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Speaker 4: It's just he's just a fun dude to draw who

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Speaker 4: just delights in smashing.

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Speaker 2: That's going to be a fun follow up to this,

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Speaker 2: to this Odin book, which was we'll talk about like

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Speaker 2: this is a This is like a in many respects,

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Speaker 2: like a deeply weird grim tale. Not to say there's

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Speaker 2: no humor in it, but it leans more towards the

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Speaker 2: weird and the grim.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that reflects anything about my life

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Speaker 4: or just like the actual storytelling. But what I've tried

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Speaker 4: to do with each of these books is to paint

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Speaker 4: a portrait of the deity that's being featured. And the

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Speaker 4: thing that becomes very apparent when you read a series

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Speaker 4: of Norse myths is that Odin's overall arc, very consistent

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Speaker 4: is his obsession with knowledge. He's obsessed with finding out more.

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Speaker 4: And some of that is he has a sense of

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Speaker 4: like the doom that awaits all the gods, Ragnarrok coming

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Speaker 4: and he's trying to stave that off. But virtually every

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Speaker 4: myth of him is him trying to learn more and

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Speaker 4: the sacrifices he makes. This is a god who literally

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Speaker 4: plucks out his own eye for an opportunity to learn

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Speaker 4: more knowledge. You know, he famously hangs himself on the

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Speaker 4: tree Ignitosil in order like achieves like an out of

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Speaker 4: body experience, in order to learn more about what is

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Speaker 4: to come. The story ends up being very like dark

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Speaker 4: in a way, like exploration of like this this man

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Speaker 4: who is obsessed with finding out his fate so he

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Speaker 4: could try to stop it, and you know, spoilers, he's

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Speaker 4: not going to be able to.

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Speaker 2: In working with some of these wild ideas settings and

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Speaker 2: events for Odin, did you ever feel like you were

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Speaker 2: writing like a Jodorowski comic, because you know, it's pretty

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Speaker 2: it's pretty surreal and weird almost from the get go.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it really that's a great way, but it's kind

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Speaker 4: of true, Like I was just lamenting this to my

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Speaker 4: partner the other day, Like some elements of Norse mythology,

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Speaker 4: they'll just drop a line that's just so weird. You're like,

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Speaker 4: how do I interpret this? Like, for the Norse creation

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Speaker 4: myth involves a giant hermaphroditic creature named Emir who exists

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Speaker 4: in this void between worlds, and he kind of starts

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Speaker 4: butting living beings out of his armpits and stuff, and

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Speaker 4: these beings eventually give birth to Odin and his brothers,

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Speaker 4: who then they murder Emir and builds like the entire

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Speaker 4: cosmos out of his body. And so I'm able to

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Speaker 4: say that is one thing, and it's pretty weird saying that,

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Speaker 4: but then having to craft the visual imagery to go

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Speaker 4: with that. I spent a long time trying to strike

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Speaker 4: the right balance between gruesome and realistic and absurd. I'll say,

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Speaker 4: my Emir kind of looks like the Staypuff marshmallow Man

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Speaker 4: a little bit, just floating their naked in the void.

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Speaker 4: But I mean, I feel like that's the best way

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Speaker 4: to handle it.

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Speaker 2: And I have to say I was really impressed with

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Speaker 2: how Odin comes together as a story as opposed to

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Speaker 2: just like a sequence of strange tellings and half tellings.

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Speaker 2: You know, like it really you really do bring it

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Speaker 2: together and it isn't just this like surreal you know,

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Speaker 2: procession of images.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that I actually tried to structure

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Speaker 4: the episodes that start off more outlandish and bring it

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Speaker 4: more into the like the progression of the stories get

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Speaker 4: a little bit less insane in order to tell the

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Speaker 4: story of Odin sacrificing everything he can for more wisdom.

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Speaker 4: Another thing I tried to do with this is so

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Speaker 4: a little history of Norse mythology, frustratingly, as opposed to

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Speaker 4: Greek mythology, where there is enough material that has survived

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Speaker 4: from antiquity that I could probably do a book a

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Speaker 4: year for rest of my life and never run even

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Speaker 4: close to dry. Norse mythology, there's very little that survived

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Speaker 4: to us, and virtually every thing that did survive was

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Speaker 4: recorded in the Christian era after people stopped believing in

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Speaker 4: these gods for the most part. So you basically have

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Speaker 4: the poetic Eda, which is a collection of various scaldic poems,

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Speaker 4: and you have the prose Etta, which was written by

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Speaker 4: this guy named Snorri Sterlinsson, which is the best name ever.

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Speaker 4: And it's just this is kind of all that you

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Speaker 4: get from these two things, like there's not even much

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Speaker 4: art that survived. And with Snorri, he's retelling Snorri Sterlissen,

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Speaker 4: the guy who wrote the Prosetta. He's retelling some of

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Speaker 4: these scaldic poems that he was aware of and putting

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Speaker 4: his own spin on them, as you should as a storyteller.

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Speaker 4: And I find that's such a part of the experience

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Speaker 4: of reading Norse mythology that I've never seen reflected in

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Speaker 4: any other readtellings before. So, for instance, in the book Odin,

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Speaker 4: the main character in a sense is you the reader.

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Speaker 4: There is actually someone who is you're being. It's you know,

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Speaker 4: a rare case of second person narration, where somebody is

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Speaker 4: describing to everything you're seeing. And you walk into you

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Speaker 4: basically awake on a battlefield, and all around you see

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Speaker 4: all these dead norsemen who'd been slaughtered, and there's literally

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Speaker 4: carrying crows eating them. And then these these women in

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Speaker 4: silver come riding out of the sky on horses and

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Speaker 4: it's the Valkyries, and they're picking their spirits up, taking

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Speaker 4: them to Valhalla, and all this stuff sounds kind of familiar,

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Speaker 4: and we all know, like I mean, or maybe we don't,

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Speaker 4: but Valhalla was like the Viking equivalent of heaven. It

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Speaker 4: was a place that you went to and that was

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Speaker 4: your goal. You would die valiantly in battle, and that

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Speaker 4: was your reward. You'd go to Valhalla, this great feast

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Speaker 4: hall where there would be just like they'd give you

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Speaker 4: like mead and pork, and you'd like party all day.

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Speaker 4: And in the original pros Eda, there is a poem, no,

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Speaker 4: not a poem, it's like a piece of writing called

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Speaker 4: the guildf Beginning, which is this description of how the

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Speaker 4: gods came to be and who Odin was, and some

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Speaker 4: of the most famous myths. And it's only our really

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Speaker 4: account that we have of it. And it's structured in

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Speaker 4: this very odd way where it is this Swedish king

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Speaker 4: named Guildfy who has come to Valhalla, and he's being

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Speaker 4: addressed by these three kings who are seated in thrones,

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Speaker 4: one atop each other, and their names are High, just

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Speaker 4: as High and Third, and there's it's such a weird element.

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Speaker 4: And I'm like, when you read these stories, you get

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Speaker 4: to know these guys. I've never seen them include in

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Speaker 4: this So I wanted Odin to be narrated by High

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Speaker 4: just as High and Third to give you a feel

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Speaker 4: of this original text. And of course High, just as

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Speaker 4: High and Third are more than you know, and like

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Speaker 4: by the I won't reveal the spoilers when they're revealed

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Speaker 4: to be who they really are.

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Speaker 2: I loved High, just as High and Third, and I

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Speaker 2: have to say they reminded me quite a bit in

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Speaker 2: the book of the various like EC comics characters that

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Speaker 2: you would have YES storytellers like Crip Keeper and Old Witch,

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Speaker 2: or DC storytellers like canaan Abel.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was absolutely an influence of that. You know,

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Speaker 4: you go to the original version and they're a little

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Speaker 4: bit more into changeable, you don't really get a sense

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Speaker 4: of their personalities. But because I was having these three

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Speaker 4: narrators appear on frame, I wanted them to show different

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Speaker 4: aspects of the stories being told, and so you like,

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Speaker 4: for instance, I feel like the names themselves are hilarious.

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Speaker 4: First one is named High, He's a high king. That

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Speaker 4: makes sense. Second one is just as High. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: I see you're going for a theme here. You're all equal.

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Speaker 4: Third guys, just like I'm third, It's like, what are

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Speaker 4: you doing? But just as High. I felt like he

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Speaker 4: was more snarky. He was the middle one, and I

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Speaker 4: gave him an appearance. If you look at old illuminated manuscripts,

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Speaker 4: that would be the place that we rescued these stories from.

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Speaker 4: That's the only way they were recorded. Like sometimes there's

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Speaker 4: drawings of Odin and Loki in the in the borders

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Speaker 4: that look like this, where he's almost like a clownish figure.

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Speaker 4: And then the character of High the first narrator to

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Speaker 4: meet his mask. They're all masked, I should say, is

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Speaker 4: based on a burial mask of an actual Viking chieftain.

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Speaker 4: And the third one he's kind of based on another

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Speaker 4: different that was recovered. He's more of a traveler figure.

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Speaker 4: They're all like giving different aspects of the personality of

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Speaker 4: the god who's being featured in this book, which is Odin.

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Speaker 2: Now you you touched on the issue with the sources.

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Speaker 2: The two ducks, right, they are sometimes described as ducks.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really obscure that you found that one.

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Speaker 2: But yes, but yeah, I guess I was. I was

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Speaker 2: curious to hear a little bit more about the creative

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Speaker 2: challenges of of not only stitching together some of these

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Speaker 2: like various mysteries and the text and things that are missing,

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Speaker 2: like for instance, Odin's brothers that come up and the

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Speaker 2: just vanish. But then also, I know you you discussed

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Speaker 2: this in the Norse Code section of the book, some

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Speaker 2: of the choices you had to make visually, and you

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Speaker 2: know that where you know it's it's more about like

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Speaker 2: what can you do that is different with and like

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Speaker 2: your own visual storytelling, even going back through Olympians.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so for those Norse Code is a section that

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Speaker 4: I have at the back of each of the As Guardians.

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Speaker 4: The kind of it's almost like the DVD extras or

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Speaker 4: the director's commentary for the book. I kind of go

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Speaker 4: in there. Sometimes I use to make cheap jokes, but

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Speaker 4: sometimes you just explain some of the processes behind the

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Speaker 4: different choices I made in depicting the stories. This way,

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Speaker 4: it's the answer to an Olympians. We had it as

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Speaker 4: the Geek Notes with it was spelled Greek with an

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Speaker 4: R crossed out, just kind of a way of kind

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Speaker 4: of like sharing a little bit more of the details

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Speaker 4: of like just the utter geekery that I find in

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Speaker 4: these stories. And with the challenge in doing something like

396
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Speaker 4: As Guardians is it's both a challenge and sometimes an

397
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Speaker 4: aid right, there is so many gaps in our knowledge

398
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Speaker 4: and it can be very frustrating. I was just you know,

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Speaker 4: there's the concept. Here's my favorite example, the concept of

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Speaker 4: the nine worlds of Norse mythology. So the central like

401
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 4: you know, image of like the way that the cosmos

402
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 4: was assembled in the Norse worldview was there was a

403
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Speaker 4: world tree called Ignita Sail. It was a giant ash

404
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 4: tree that had spread out over the cosmos and had

405
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Speaker 4: roots in three different worlds and had the other worlds

406
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Speaker 4: assembled around its branches. It's mentioned in multiple sources these

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Speaker 4: nine worlds, but nothing that survives tells us exactly what

408
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Speaker 4: the nine worlds are. We just know that there are nine.

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Speaker 4: So one of the first things you have to do

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Speaker 4: whenever you're working on a series like as Guardians or

411
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Speaker 4: any retelling is decide am I going to address this

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Speaker 4: concept that appears it's important? How am I going to

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Speaker 4: do this? Like I had to go and do my

414
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 4: own research and decision making as to what these nine

415
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Speaker 4: worlds would be, which ones would they be because we

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Speaker 4: never really know. There's other stuff. Like you mentioned, Odin

417
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Speaker 4: has two brothers who figure very proper in the creation.

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Speaker 4: It's Villie and VI who just kind of disappear. We

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Speaker 4: don't know, and it's probable if I was somebody who

420
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Speaker 4: believed in these gods who worship them, there's probably a

421
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 4: story that explains that you probably understand completely, but it

422
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 4: just drops. So from a modern storytelling sensibility, it can

423
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Speaker 4: be very difficult to be like, how am I going

424
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,639
Speaker 4: to address this just weird thread where we have characters

425
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Speaker 4: who are shaping up to be I mean, they're co

426
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 4: creators of the universe, but the main god who then

427
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 4: just absolutely one hundred percent disappear from the narrative. That

428
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 4: could be tricky. It also is nice and that it

429
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 4: does give you room to play in. This is across

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Speaker 4: both series as Guardians and Olympians, there's been instances where

431
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 4: I have roomed well, not just that. As a storyteller,

432
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 4: like the delayres before me, it's absolutely imperative that you

433
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 4: put your own spin on any story. Otherwise, what are

434
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 4: you doing there? You're interpreting it, You're focusing it through

435
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 4: your own experiences, your own point of views. You're telling

436
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 4: a story and that's your job. And sometimes it's nice

437
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 4: to have those gaps. And sometimes when the gaps are

438
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 4: as big as like, we don't know who this can

439
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: We don't even know one hundred percent if the goddess

440
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 4: is Freya and Frig are the same person or not.

441
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 4: Like that's annoying. Like, so it was a lot of

442
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,719
Speaker 4: this going back and forth about like the nature of

443
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 4: the world, the nature of the story is going to

444
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 4: tell it had to make some fundamental decisions right off

445
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 4: the bat. Actually, this is kind of fun. So in

446
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 4: Norse mythology, one of the key events in the history

447
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 4: of the world is the First War, and it's a

448
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 4: war between the Asir and the Vaniir. The Asir are

449
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: the gods who occupy Asgard. Asgard literally means stronghold of

450
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 4: the Scir and their number Odin is their chieftain. Frig

451
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 4: is one of the Asir thor ham dials. Normally, a

452
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 4: lot of the gods you know, are the Asir, and

453
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 4: at some point in their history, early on, they encounter

454
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 4: gods from another world from Vanaheim.

455
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: It's one of most people count as well. The Nine

456
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 3: Worlds and.

457
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 4: The Veneer are different gods and we never really learn

458
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 4: all that much about them. We know they're gifted and prophecy.

459
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 4: There may be less warlike than the User. They seem

460
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 4: to maybe be associated with agriculture, and there's this battle

461
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: that they have, and at the end of the battle

462
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 4: which seems like the Veneer actually win because they, you know,

463
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 4: they could see what's coming. There is an exchange of hostages,

464
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 4: which doesn't mean the same thing. Back then it was

465
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 4: more like, think of distinguished guests. In order to keep

466
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 4: the peace. Two as Guardians went to Vanier Honer and

467
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 4: Momir Memir, and then three of the Vanier come to Asgard, Freya,

468
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:54,239
Speaker 4: her twin brother Frey, and their father Innured. Now this

469
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: is where it gets interesting, to be like this whole

470
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 4: idea of these gaps, right I mentioned offhand, we're not

471
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,239
Speaker 4: even sure Freya and frig are distinct goddesses. Frig is

472
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 4: the queen of Odin of the Ausser. She is one

473
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 4: of my favorite characters. There's this amazing line about her.

474
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 3: I think I have it.

475
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 4: Oh open her up to it in the Guilt beginning,

476
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 4: where Frig is Odin's wife. She knows the fates of men,

477
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: even though she pronounces no prophecies, like she knows all

478
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 4: that's going to happen. She's actually smarter than Odin, and

479
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: Odin's whole struggle for knowledge is partially because he could

480
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 4: sense this grief in her and he's trying to It

481
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 4: drives him nuts that she knows the stuff and she

482
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 4: won't say she is somebody who understands the way fate works,

483
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 4: even though she does attempt to buckle it in some ways.

484
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 4: Now among the goddesses that come over from the Veneer

485
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 4: is Freya, very famous goddess. Freya also has the ability

486
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: to see the future. Freya has a husband named Ode,

487
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: like Odin, Odin Frey and like people like this is

488
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 4: the same thing, and it's it's very odd, And my

489
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 4: take on it is I think the user Vener war

490
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 4: is probably a myth that came about when the group

491
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 4: of ancient Norse people or Icelandic people Scandinavians will say,

492
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 4: who worshiped the Usir met a related group of people

493
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: who worshiped the pretty much the same pantheon under slightly

494
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: different names. Think of like the way the Greeks and

495
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 4: the Romans worshiped the same gods.

496
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 3: They had a fight.

497
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 4: They kind of came together as a group of people exchanged,

498
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 4: you know, people intermarried, but for whatever reason, instead of

499
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: the gods becoming fully assimilated. They kept them as two

500
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: separate gods because Freya and frig are clearly the same

501
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 4: goddess Odin Odin are definitely the same god, and there's

502
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 4: other similarities, and so I kind of treat it without

503
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 4: ever saying it using my superhero logic. I feel like

504
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 4: Vanaheim is kind of like the Earth Too version of Asgard,

505
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 4: where it's like an alternate dimension version where like these

506
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 4: are like the like you know, the multiverse type stuff,

507
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 4: like this is the version of the guy, and like

508
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:06,360
Speaker 4: it's using that superhero comics logic to kind of explain

509
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 4: these these bigger mythologies.

510
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I absolutely love love the way you handle it. Yeah,

511
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: it and and at the same time, like I know,

512
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: I know you're explaining like the superhero logic of it,

513
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: and all I don't want to I don't want to

514
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: give the impression to the listeners that it that it

515
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 2: is like one like old timey Marvel comics and its

516
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: presentations is because the way you present it it does

517
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:32,360
Speaker 2: come off as is very surreal and uh and an

518
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: alien in a way that that I feel like a

519
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: lot of the Norse mythology feels to me when I

520
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: encounter it's it's yeah, it's details like it. It's it's

521
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,360
Speaker 2: a you know, a religion and a in a mythology

522
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 2: that is, it is so distant from from what I know,

523
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 2: and and yet it has this richness to it.

524
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:52,439
Speaker 3: Thanks.

525
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's there's a superhio logic underlying it, but

526
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 4: it's definitely not. It doesn't mean like a superhero story.

527
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 4: That is interesting what you hit on there. There is

528
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 4: something about the Norse mythology and is one of things

529
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 4: that interests me so much Greek mythology. Having done the

530
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 4: whole series in Olympians, there's some big differences between the

531
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: way we think and the way ancient Greeks think, but

532
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 4: there's an underlying familial similarity. Like I would say the

533
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 4: reason we love the Olympians still is they are just

534
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 4: an abstraction of a big, crazy family. Like even though

535
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 4: they're gods and they behave terribly, they're very relatable in

536
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 4: a way. Like there is some stuff that happens in

537
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 4: the Norse. There is just a basic underlying thing that's

538
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 4: just it is a bit more alien. I think if

539
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 4: you just look at their their idea of the ideal afterlife.

540
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 4: I mentioned Valhalla. If you die of old age, of

541
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 4: sickness any other ways in battle, you don't get to

542
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 4: go to valhalla. Valhalla was like the reward you would

543
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 4: get for dying in battle. And moreover, you would go

544
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 4: to valhalla, and like I said, you would be fed

545
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: on pork and drink meat all day, which maybe sounds

546
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 4: pretty nice and day out. But every night these warriors

547
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 4: would get up and hack each other to pieces, like

548
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: and like that was your eternal battle, was your reward,

549
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: and that you would be like, yay, that was great battle.

550
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 4: Could they would be reborn in the morning, and so

551
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: you wake up and you'd be like that was great.

552
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: The way I cut that guy into pieces the night

553
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 4: before and then my head was lopped off, Like this

554
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 4: was like the idea, Like that's most people would not

555
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: find that to be the idea of heaven. And I

556
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 4: feel like that just says like how very different Norse

557
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 4: mythology is from our standard, like our way of being.

558
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: Now.

559
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 4: I'm working in a book now, the third book in

560
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: the series. I'm currently writing it, and there is a character,

561
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 4: a mythological character who previously had been blinded, and the

562
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: gods talk about that like this is a shame, like

563
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 4: he lost his eyesight in battle, but like that's something

564
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 4: that's just like it's too bad you weren't killed, like,

565
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: and that's not the.

566
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 3: Way that we would view this.

567
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 4: And like there's also the story of the god Tyr,

568
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 4: the god of war, who when they bind Fenri of

569
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 4: the Wolf, he actually sacrifices his hand so that in

570
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 4: order to get this wolf, like the wolf's like you're

571
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 4: obviously trying to bind me, and they're like, oh no, look,

572
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: Tyr will stick his hand in your mouth, and if

573
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 4: you can't break the chain, we'll let you go. And

574
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 4: if we don't, you could bite his hand off. And

575
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 4: he can't break the chain, they don't let him go.

576
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 4: So he bites off Tyr's hand and when you realize

577
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 4: Tyr is their god of war, for him to lose

578
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 4: his sword arm like that that's an amazing sacrifice. And

579
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: it's it's interesting you see this character like these these

580
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 4: themes of like just like what did that mean to them?

581
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 4: Come up with these stories and I'm trying to use

582
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 4: as guardians to kind of explore more than just like

583
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 4: just the event of a god getting his hand bit

584
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 4: off or another god getting blinded, Like what did that mean?

585
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 4: In the larger family of the gods. What did that

586
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 4: mean if you were an ancient Scandinavian who these were

587
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 4: your deities? What did it mean that your god of

588
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 4: war was suddenly without his sword arm?

589
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And speaking of you know, some of these

590
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: examples of bloodshed and violence, I want to mention one

591
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: of things that I really love about Odin and also

592
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: the Olympian series, and is that So these are books

593
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: that I think if you like look him up on Amazon.

594
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: They say nine years to fourteen years is like the

595
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: reading range. And of course I would stress that, Yeah,

596
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: I read them and I richly enjoyed them, so you

597
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: don't need to stop reading them at fourteen. But my

598
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 2: son read them very much in that in that frame

599
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: of ages, and I'd really appreciated the way that you were.

600
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: You didn't sugarcoat anything, you know, like the gods of

601
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: the Greek pantheon are are still problematic in your in

602
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: your work, and you explore that. You you know, you

603
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: get into this realm of not only like heroes, but

604
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: anti heroes in partiction, but potentially villains in the guise

605
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: of heroes.

606
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

607
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 4: What you and I had spoke previously one time about

608
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 4: my take of theseus the hero of the quote unquote

609
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 4: hero of the Minotaur story, who you know he kills

610
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 4: the minotaur, and my taken him as I wrote him

611
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 4: as a villain, like the sugar coating of stories of

612
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 4: Greek mythology. I feel like there could be no greater

613
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 4: disservice or mistake that you do to mythology to do that.

614
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 4: These stories often are produced for a younger audience in

615
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 4: our day and age, but they were meant These were

616
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: not just stories meant as entertainment for the ancient peoples

617
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 4: that believed in them. These are stories that explain the

618
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: world around them. And like, if you're removing an element

619
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 4: that is problematic by today's standards, you're kind of inextricably

620
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 4: altering the story in a way that's you might as

621
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 4: well not be telling that particular story. The way I've

622
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: always handled it is I try it's all in there.

623
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 4: I just try not to be explicit about it. You know,

624
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 4: if there's a horrible dismemberment, I might not show it

625
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 4: as much as much as like, you know, kind of

626
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 4: artfully showing a bit of it in the shadow or

627
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: off panel or with gruesome sound effects. I think it's

628
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 4: from growing up watching a movie like Alien where you

629
00:32:58,160 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 4: never actually see the creature.

630
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 3: Much more scary that way. Like, I really do believe that.

631
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 4: I know it's almost hackneyed to say it, but like

632
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: your imagination is going to concoct something so much more

633
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: gruesome than even the most talented and gifted artist. Like so, storytelling,

634
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 4: especially comics, I strongly believe, is a very collaborative effort,

635
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 4: not just in the fact that many comics are produced

636
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 4: by many people, but it's very much a collaboration with

637
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 4: the audience. It's a series of illustrations and words placed

638
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 4: around the illustrations, and if you do the magic right,

639
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 4: it comes together in the alchemy that it should. The

640
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 4: reader brings the story to life in their brain like

641
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 4: it plays like a movie, and they'll read extra stuff

642
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 4: into it. They'll feel in cracks that you don't even

643
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 4: have there. And it also makes for comics to be

644
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: such an amazingly versatile storytelling medium, like you were saying

645
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: these were you know, Amazon says these are nine to four,

646
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 4: but you know a lot of adults read them too,

647
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 4: because you can write on so many different levels with comics.

648
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 4: It's like, you know, you tell one story at the words,

649
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 4: one story at the pictures, they come together. Depending what

650
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 4: you bring as a reader, you're going to bring all

651
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 4: different levels. I could write some very adult stuff in

652
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 4: nas Guardians or Olympians, and just by phrasing it in

653
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 4: the right way, no kid will ever get exactly what

654
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 4: I'm saying, but an adult picks up on it immediately like,

655
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 4: oh okay, I see what's going on there, and that's

656
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 4: I think that's when the magic's about comics And as

657
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: somebody who grew up reading comics and you would read

658
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 4: them over and over again, as a good comic is designed,

659
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 4: in my opinion, to be read multiple times because of

660
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: those different elements that make up the page. Like the

661
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 4: first time you read it, you probably focus mostly on

662
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 4: the words, because you know, why wouldn't you. But then

663
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 4: you read it a second time and you're going to

664
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: already have a general sense of what those words say,

665
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 4: and you're going to pay more attention to the illustrations

666
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 4: that the words are embedded in. And like the third

667
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 4: and fourth time you read it, it's when that that

668
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 4: real magic starts happening, when like everything starts coming together

669
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 4: and swirling. You're noticing little details you never noticed before,

670
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 4: and it's it's one of the things I think makes

671
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 4: comics so wonderful.

672
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I remember when when my son was first reading

673
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: your Olympians books, he would actually the first pass through

674
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: the book, he would just look at the pictures and

675
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: then he will and then he would do the text.

676
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 2: And I think now it's it's more of a normal

677
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: or not normal. There's no normal way, I guess to

678
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 2: read comic book, but I think now it's more of

679
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,800
Speaker 2: a balanced way where he's reading through it with images

680
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: and the text, and then I don't know what the

681
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 2: subsequent re reads are.

682
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: Like, Yeah, I mean, it's just it's probably different each

683
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 4: time because you have the two different pillars coming together

684
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 4: to make a third. You know now that you mention it.

685
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 4: When I was a kid and I got a comic,

686
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 4: especially with someone who's waiting for like part two or

687
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 4: part three of a story, first time would just be

688
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 4: a frantic flip through to see the pictures.

689
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 3: Like, what's good on, what's going on? Oh my god,

690
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: what's happening there?

691
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 4: And then you would go back and read it again

692
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 4: and just you got to hope that the story matches

693
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,439
Speaker 4: what you made up in your head and that first

694
00:35:59,480 --> 00:35:59,919
Speaker 4: pass through.

695
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I'm in my own experience. I find that. Yeah.

696
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll be reading a comic book and I don't

697
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: read as many as I imagine a lot of folks

698
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: out there, but occasionally dip into the comic books, and

699
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: you know, there'll be times where I feel like it's

700
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: more the text pulling me along than the images. Sometimes

701
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: the detriment of the images, which are often like really great,

702
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: Like I think back to the Alan Moore Swamp things books, like,

703
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 2: sometimes yeah, the pros is so good, Like that's what's

704
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: pulling me, and I have to either like sort of

705
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 2: slow down or go back and reread it so I

706
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: can appreciate the visuals as well.

707
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,919
Speaker 4: Alan Moore is a prime example of somebody whose books

708
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: you need to multiple times. I think he very often

709
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: writes an opposite text from what's being depicted in the pictures.

710
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 4: You know, his famous graphic novel Watchmen. There's so much

711
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 4: of that where if you were only to read Watchmen,

712
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: you would definitely not get the entire story, because so

713
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 4: often what Dave Gibbons is doing in the art is

714
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 4: showing something very different than what's being just in the words,

715
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 4: and that's you know, there's not really too many art

716
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: forms that have that, especially in the printed word.

717
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 3: Comics are that's kind of a.

718
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 4: Storytelling style that they have a lockdown that no one

719
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 4: else can really touch. You can't really do that with

720
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 4: just pros.

721
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: I really liked your point about the two pillars coming

722
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: together in a third because it's like, I know this

723
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: is the kay, I know that there. You know, there's

724
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: the with just an unillustrated book that there is of

725
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: course the text, and there's the image that forms in

726
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 2: my mind, and then recollection of all of this. And

727
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: then with a film too, we can often find ourselves

728
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: misremembering or re capitulating things that happened or didn't happen

729
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: in the film. But with comics it's kind of like

730
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 2: I'd never really thought about that third, that third pillar

731
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 2: coming together based on the images and the because it's

732
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 2: almost like, well, it's all there. You have a perfect

733
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: record of what you should be thinking and visualizing, but

734
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: it's not quite the case.

735
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 4: The one thing I've heard about comics too, and I

736
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: agree with this, that you could do that makes them

737
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 4: very different than say movie, because movies words and pictures

738
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 4: coming together too. Comics it is there all at once,

739
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 4: Like you know, you could flip through like one at

740
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 4: a time and a panel on an e reader, but

741
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: often it's just you're if the way it's presented, you're

742
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 4: seeing like an entire page or entire spread laid out

743
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 4: at once.

744
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: And there's things as a creator I could do.

745
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 4: I try to keep big reveals for page turns, so

746
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 4: that if like a character reveals their identity, you don't

747
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 4: see in the middle of the page. It's like you

748
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 4: turn the page just to keep that secret a little

749
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 4: bit longer, because yeah, you flip that page and you

750
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 4: get a weird sense and you can move back and

751
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 4: forth in time so easy in comics like oh what

752
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 4: is this reference? To let me flip back a couple

753
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 4: of pages? I mean, you could watch a movie that way,

754
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 4: but it's gonna be unpleasant by Bady sitting there with

755
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 4: you watching it.

756
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: So coming back to odin, yeah, there's again there's a

757
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: lot of weird, wonderful things and terrifying things that happen

758
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: on the page here that you adapted from the Norse sources.

759
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 2: Were what was the weirdest and most challenging odentic myth

760
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: that you had to tackle here?

761
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: Whooh, Wow, that's like a good question. We talked a

762
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 4: little bit about like just the creation of the world

763
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 4: aspect can be pretty weird because it's just like where

764
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 4: are you like the elements coming onto that are just

765
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 4: so odd. But I think probably for my money, the

766
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 4: one that was the most challenging in a way is

767
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 4: when Odin sacrifices himself on the tree igdocil So in

768
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 4: his ongoing attempts for knowledge through his encounter in the

769
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 4: Asir Vanir War, through his encounters, what he perceives in Frig,

770
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 4: what he has picked up from talking to Freya, who

771
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 4: shows him just a little bit, he knows there is

772
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 4: a great doom coming upon the gods. It's a very

773
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 4: personal doom for him too, and he wants to find

774
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 4: a way to learn more, and so he hangs himself

775
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 4: on the tree like literally the gallows sort of stuff.

776
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: One of his titles, by the way, like a cultic

777
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 4: title for him, was the Gallows God. He was very

778
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 4: much associated with the hanged, the hanged figure. Sometimes that

779
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 4: people would actually think the Norse would actually sacrifice to

780
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,279
Speaker 4: Odin by hanging a person like that was it was

781
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 4: a thing they did. Odin subjects us to himself in

782
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 4: a way to sort of have the hidden language of

783
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 4: the universe revealed to.

784
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 3: Him, which is the runes.

785
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 4: We all know what runs are, we've seen them, and

786
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 4: it comes to him in kind of like a spirit quest.

787
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,919
Speaker 4: So me talking about that, that doesn't sound like it's

788
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 4: maybe that hard, but for somebody, I'm crafting something I

789
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 4: want someone to be entertained by, and it's gonna it's

790
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 4: like seven or eight pages of just a man being

791
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 4: hanged by the neck and what he's seeing. What is

792
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 4: that famous? There's that famous Twilight Zone episode where the

793
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 4: guy is just being hanged the entire time and at

794
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 4: the end it reveals spoilers that he like everything he

795
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 4: dreams like he dreams. He breaks down off the noose

796
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 4: and he goes back to his family and at the

797
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: end he dies. It's like Odin having this out of

798
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 4: body experience the entire time where he's just seeing stuff

799
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 4: like I actually have him see the Norns, who are

800
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 4: the equivalent of the fates from Greek mythology. They were

801
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 4: figures that would tell you the future, and they reveal

802
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 4: the secret of the Norns to him. And so the

803
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 4: imagery for this is actually for the most part straightforward.

804
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,759
Speaker 4: It's just it's finding a way to show such a

805
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 4: static scene for so long and have it still be interesting.

806
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 4: And yeah, this is an example of using those two

807
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 4: pillars the words in the pictures. Sometimes you could just

808
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 4: pull back and hold on a dramatic shot of him,

809
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 4: a lot of extreme close ups showing some of the

810
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 4: acting of what he's going through through his facial features

811
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 4: some of it, and what's being in his internal monologue,

812
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 4: some of what's being said by the people who are

813
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 4: observing him. That was actually a tricky scene I remember

814
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 4: playing with because it could become a real boring slog

815
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 4: for reader if you're not careful, and it ends up

816
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 4: being having just re read the book myself recently, which

817
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 4: is always weird. I'm always in a bit of a

818
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 4: fugue state when I make these things, so I'm always like, oh,

819
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 4: that's interesting. I was quite pleased with the way that

820
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 4: sequence came out.

821
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have capturing everything you just said, but

822
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 2: on top of that not being overtly grim or anything

823
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 2: as well. It despite being like a grim sequence.

824
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 4: In this text, it's driven by that curiosity. Like I

825
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 4: find Odin to be a very relatable and interesting character

826
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 4: that way, because his whole thing is like, it doesn't

827
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 4: matter what knowledge will cost him, he will do anything

828
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 4: for knowledge.

829
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 3: I did have some fun with the visuals in that.

830
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,720
Speaker 4: So in my previous series Olympians, I mentioned there's the characters,

831
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 4: the more the fates, who we know, you know, if

832
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:01,399
Speaker 4: the fates allow sort of thing.

833
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 3: And in Greek mythology they.

834
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 4: Were depicted as typically as three women wearing robes, three

835
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 4: young women. That's the way you'd see and that's pretty

836
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 4: much I did too. You never see their faces, they're

837
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 4: just you see, like the bob half their faces and

838
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 4: the norns from Norse mythology are often depicted exactly the same.

839
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 4: It's a good time to mention there's a lot of

840
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 4: overlap between Norse and Greek mythology, and especially because we

841
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 4: got Norse mythology in such an incomplete state, I think

842
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 4: a lot of what was well known in the world

843
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 4: about Greek mythology was imprinted on Norse mythology. So I

844
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 4: didn't want to just repeat the same character designs that

845
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 4: did occur to me, like how fun would that be?

846
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 4: It's like, hey, look it's the fates from as Guardian

847
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 4: from Olympians. I actually designed them to look like the

848
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 4: bog people, you know, throughout Europe, specifically you know, in

849
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 4: the more pdy areas there have been. They just found

850
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: it really cool. On the other day, where there are

851
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 4: preserved bodies, ancient bodies that were like preserved in peat

852
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 4: moss because of the high acidic content of the swamps,

853
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 4: and the bodies will still have their skin intact. They'll

854
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: have like a somewhat skeletal appearance, but like they'll still

855
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 4: have skin that look like they're made of like tanned leather,

856
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 4: and elements like their clothing will still be preserved, tattoos,

857
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 4: sometimes facial features depending And that was such an interesting

858
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 4: European idea that like, I actually made my norns look

859
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:25,479
Speaker 4: like they were.

860
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 3: The bog people.

861
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 4: Just thought was something that helps to extinguish, extinguish, helps

862
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 4: it to distinguish them from their Grecian counterparts.

863
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I love that detail. Now here's another

864
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 2: just sort of I don't know, technical and or creative

865
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: question about putting together comic book. How does like color

866
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 2: palette factor into your choices, like in specific color choices,

867
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: but just sort of like the overall like color scheme

868
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: for a given work.

869
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 4: Oh wow, I want to say, I feel like color

870
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 4: is super important and at points in the history of

871
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 4: comics was an undervalued part to the actual feel of

872
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 4: a comic. With Olympians, I did all the colors myself.

873
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 4: Olympians was such a near and dear project in my heart,

874
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 4: and I was so I joke about being in control

875
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 4: freak and that there was such specific ways I wanted

876
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 4: to depict things that I colored that myself, and that

877
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 4: did take a lot of time. And with as guardians,

878
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 4: I wanted to be able to branch out. I wanted

879
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 4: to be able to share like I wanted to be

880
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 4: able to do other things. I wanted not to be

881
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 4: like breaking myself creating these books. And I also I

882
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 4: kind of realized I'm not maybe the best colorist in

883
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 4: the world. I had some good ideas about color theory,

884
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:47,879
Speaker 4: but sometimes my execution I felt could be a little

885
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 4: bit flat. So for Odin, we actually, for the first

886
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 4: time I worked with an outside colorist on one of

887
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 4: these books. It was this very talented cartoonist named Norm Grock.

888
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 4: You could look him up Grock. He does his own

889
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 4: stuff and he worked. I would write him such long

890
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 4: notes about like what the color should be because it

891
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 4: did mean a lot the specific ideas behind each scene,

892
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: and one of the things I had told him in

893
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 4: establishing this world is I never want to see a

894
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 4: blue sky in as Guardians. It's always either overcast, magic

895
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 4: hour or night. And that's the only encounters we have

896
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: because that reflects the world that the Norse lived in.

897
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 4: I mean, there are blue skies, to be sure in

898
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 4: Norway occasionally, but that's not the image I wanted to

899
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 4: depict here, right. Sometimes I would do rough colors just

900
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 4: to show him, like in the instance of the marshmallow

901
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 4: Man Emir hermaphroditic giant, that was he was like, I

902
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 4: have no idea heaw to color this. I'm like, this

903
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 4: is he should look like this? And it was specifics,

904
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 4: like I wanted certain things that were very important to

905
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 4: me in the myths. I wanted Thor to have red hair.

906
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 4: I wanted oh and to have brown hair with gray streaks.

907
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 4: And we use that actually to show his age because

908
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: a big difference between Greek gods and as Guardian gods

909
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 4: is they the Norse gods do age at a slower rate.

910
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 4: But there was so many you could use the color

911
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 4: in so many different ways. Just about the mood.

912
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 3: I don't know.

913
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,399
Speaker 4: That is a fun question. I'm glad we actually got

914
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 4: to mention that.

915
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the Giant because he

916
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 2: had the coloration that you end up going with here.

917
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: It is, you know, it's pale but a little bit

918
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: like pink, but like so it doesn't feel like a corpse,

919
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 2: but it doesn't feel completely alive. Like there's a nice,

920
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: wonderful inter zone that is created here with the colors game.

921
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to go for a few things

922
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 4: with Emir, Like, I wanted him to look half formed,

923
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 4: like you picked up on. He's also kind of created

924
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 4: from ice, so I wanted to tell the ice thing

925
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 4: I'm saying he I should be saying they emir Is

926
00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 4: is both hermaphroditic. I wanted them to appear like a

927
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 4: like a grub or something. Yeah, and all those features

928
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 4: came in there. I should mention this also. Unfortunately, Norm,

929
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 4: because of his own career taking off, was not able

930
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,880
Speaker 4: to color the second book in the series, which is

931
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 4: Thor and that is being done by s. J.

932
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 3: Miller.

933
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:21,280
Speaker 2: Well, George, once again, thanks for coming on the show.

934
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: My son and I both really enjoyed Odin. I just

935
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 2: had it sitting out of my desk after the review

936
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: copy came in for a few days, and he grabbed it,

937
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 2: I think, read it in one setting, like right there

938
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: on the floor, and gave his approval. He was a

939
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: fan of this one, so Grayley enjoyed Odin. I'm gonna

940
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: have to read it again and maybe another time, and

941
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 2: then we're excited for Thor when that comes out.

942
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 3: Excellent.

943
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,839
Speaker 2: Thanks again to George O'Connor for chatting with me here.

944
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: The book again is as Guardians Odin out now in

945
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: all fourmats. You can learn more about George and his

946
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: works at George O'Connor books dot com. That's George O'Connor

947
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,399
Speaker 2: c O N N o R books dot com and hey,

948
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with stuff to blow your mind here.

949
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 2: While we are primarily a science and culture podcast with

950
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 2: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, on Mondays we do

951
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 2: some listener mail, so Friday in we'd love to hear

952
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 2: from you. On Wednesdays we do a short form episode,

953
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 2: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

954
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

955
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: Thanks as always to the excellent Jjpossway for producing this show,

956
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 2: and if you would like to reach out, you could

957
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 2: email us at contact at stuff to Blow Your Mind

958
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: dot com.

959
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

960
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

961
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

962
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,760
Speaker 2: Nations in Ratatatator